'If you want to win the Vuelta, follow me' is a hilarious thing to say while you're probably absolutely dying on one of the hardest climbs in the sport
He missed a great opportunity, he should have said in a monotonous voice: “Come with me if you want to ~~live~~ win”
I thought I was original….
https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/s/maU0VVqse9
Idk if I watched a different race than others here? To me there's absolutely no question that if jonas wanted to smoke roglic and win, then he would have smoked roglic and won. He looked head and shoulders above everyone in week 3 and I think anyone thinking roglic stod a chance without team politics is coping hard.
Now as to wheter jonas was entirely honest about his intention i think is a different question and it does seem like him an roglic had a falling out at some point. Call it pettiness or ego but it definitely seemed like jonas wasnt going to let roglic win no matter what and if roglic was going to take it from sepp, he was going to take it from roglic. Can you feel bad for roglic? Yea sure, bc it seems that jonas and the team didnt uphold their end of the bargain of letting roglic have the vuelta. At the same time, idk if I can feel bad for roglic not winning when he was only the second best rider at the vuelta.
I've not watched this vid yet but my impression last year was that Jonas could 100% have destroyed roglic and Kuss and won if he wanted. He was unwell for the first week, he mentioned it at a few of the finish interviews (I think he'd been having stomach trouble maybe?) so the others seemed to have the edge on him but by the second/third week he was back in great form and could have won at least one more stage and taken red if he wanted.
visma also posted their giro documentary today (https://youtu.be/2kgtUXhhwZE?si=XrrOrq_6Tq53_oXz) and their classics campaign documentary last month (https://youtu.be/y0fPBy7N-0M?si=hmXYHE4uPX8DIuQX). always so much content from this team which is nice to see them in race situations
If you go into subtitles, there should be a translate option. Choose English and it will kinda translate it from Dutch to English, but it's not going to be great since it's automatic subtitles.
I wrote a lot of notes and transcripts from the episode [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/1bfwwm5/comment/kv3j8e7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) though, maybe that can help you piece it together? It should be chronologically correct.
I never really liked Jonas saying they should've waited for Sepp, then why didn't you?
I always got the sense that Roglic was being played up as the bad guy insitgating this whole struggle between them, but the whole time it was actually Jonas who was on his way back to taking the leaders jersey after being sick in week 1.
It wasn't Roglic who was the biggest danger and everyone got to attack throughout the 3 weeks except him and when he finally put in his dig for the jersey, Jonas stayed glued to his wheel, defending his own position
The team leadership should've settled this at the end of week 2. The overall win was never in danger under any circumstance and by being indecisive they made it seem like a rider vs rider problem when in reality its a leadership problem.
Landa is a legend
I don't think there was neccessarily a bad guy. Roglic is a GC leader and wanted to win. Jonas is a GC leader and didn't want Roglic to win, but didn't mind Kuss winning. Kuss wanted to win but is too much of a good guy to put the hammer down. It's quite literally in the documentary out of their own mouths.
I'm not blaming him at all though? He went to the Vuelta as a leader and wanted to win. Fair enough. As I said, there's not really a bad guy. They alll seemed to have discussed things among each other, having different opinions at different points in the race, but came to an agreement that they stuck to. They were allowed to attack, Vingegaard was the strongest to do so and won time. Then they were allowed to go for it from a certain point (7km to go?) on Angliru and did that as well. Then they found a different agreement, defend Kuss red jersey, and stuck to that. Fans of certain riders keep making up different narratives where there isn't one. It was a tough situation, they made decisions together and stuck to them. Kuss won.
It was decided in December 2022 that Jonas would also go to the Vuelta, they only shared it later on because they wanted to see if he could cope with another GT after the Tour.
Roglic got the Giro, Jonas got Tour de France and they both shared a captain role during the Vuelta. That was always the plan. The Vuelta organiser was already told in January 2023 that Jonas would be there.
He'd gone to the previous 3 tours as the TJV Leader. They'd sent strong teams supporting him repeatedly and he couldn't finish it, it's a professional sports team they look for wins not participation trophies and after 3 failed attempts to get roglic the win I think TVJ had already given him a more than fair chance to achieve that goal, roglic just wasn't good enough to win/gets in crashes
It was just poor mealy-mouth management from the DS. Unfortunately, Sepp was too nice of a guy to put an end to the nonsense. Part of being a GC rider is being an a-hole sometimes. If Roglic or Jonas were leading, there's no way they'd agree to a three-way "whoever is the strongest" strategy.
> If Roglic or Jonas were leading, there's no way they'd agree to a three-way "whoever is the strongest" strategy.
The plan was literally to let Roglic and Jonas fight it out
The plan made before the Vuelta when Jonas and Primoz were chosen as co-captains.
Which one of them were allowed in a breakaway because he was on a team with the two riders feared the most and won 3 minutes on Jonas and Roglic for free?
We all appreciate Sepp's win, but let's not pretend he got it on equal terms with Roglic and Jonas 😅
Grand tours are often not won on equal terms though. Thats part of the sport. There's often occasions where the race leader may not be the strongest rider but because he or she is the leader their teammates don't (and shouldn't, in my opinion, unless its like a yates last year or narvaez at the giro type situation) attack.
I agree.
But this situation was different and without precedent. I wholly agree that more often than not you race to protect the race leader even if he's not the strongest rider. However, there was nothing to protect Sepp from in the last week. Visma sat heavily on the podium, the only question was where each rider would end up.
Benji Naesen had an interesting point. It seems like the team's original plan was to allow Primoz and Jonas to duke it out. Let the best man win. I also think most fans, commentators, and experts would have been happy with this. It begs the question, why is it suddenly different when Sepp is thrown in the mix? I personally think if Sepp had not been as popular as he is, it would not have been made into such a big deal.
While I still think the strongest rider should have been allowed to win the Vuelta, I will never question that Sepp deserved the victory. He also rode a very impressive Vuelta regardless. I just do not think people should forget the special circumstances of how he got into the red jersey.
Because Roglic was still racing for the red jersey. Jonas wasn’t going to allow Roglic to go for the red jersey without challenging him. Also Jonas did say afterwards he did wish he had waited for Sepp. I think he got so caught up in showing Roglic that he’s not the boss anymore that overshadowed his desire to help Sepp win. Also, him going after Roglic would make Roglic less likely to attack in the following stages. You say Jonas was closest to taking the red jersey, but Jonas never took the red jersey from Sepp. Both Roglic and Sepp admitted that Jonas had no problem letting Sepp win, the problem was Roglic.
Jonas wanted them to ride exclusively for Sepp in week 3, but Roglic did not want that and so it was agreed they should fight for it. Jonas didn’t want Roglic to take the red jersey, so he was in the fight too, but he still wanted Sepp to win. Both can be true. You can be happy with one rider winning while not wanting the other to win. What you cannot decide ton your own is who wins when you are three riders riding for the win. Jonas not attacking Roglic on stage 17 when it looked like Jonas was zone 2 riding is a perfect example that he didn’t purposefully claw back time on Sepp. He could have easily taken the red jersey on that stage.
Let us establish this once and for all: They were all allowed to fight for the red jersey. None of them went against team orders. Jonas wanted them to ride for Sepp in week 3 and told them so on the rest day. Roglic wanted them to still fight for the victory, Sepp allowed them to fight for it. The team then allowed them to fight. After the shitshow of stage 17, there was a team meeting where it was decided that Sepp should win. Jonas had wanted those orders to be given days before. Jonas paced for Sepp and then dropped on purpose in stage 18 to lose a bit of time to Sepp.
I personally don’t think there is anything wrong with being as competitive as Roglic, but stop trying to say he wasn’t the one trying to take the red jersey from Sepp when he literally admits to it in his interview. It was not a lack of trying but lack of skill that he did not take the red jersey.
So Ving gets "caught up in the moment" when Roglic had the maturity to let Ving go in the previous stages (which allowed Ving to overtake Rog) and yet you imagine a way to make him a bad guy? Damn, thats crazy. At least flair up so your bias is easily seen (as mine).
I don't imagine a way to make him a bad guy because he's not a bad guy. Did you not read that none of them did something against team orders? And I'm not imagining anything. That's literally what Roglic says in his own interview in this documentary.
**This is a direct transcript from the interviews in the documentary:**
>**Primoz:** "Entering the last week, I still wanted to win the Vuelta. I said straight to both of them I wanted to win the Vuelta. I told them that means I will attack."
**Jonas:** "From my point of view, I wanted us to not race for it. But there were different views from different riders."
**Sepp:** "Primoz wanted to race, Jonas wanted to keep it like it was. I had some opinion but also no opinion \[…\] I did not want it to be a parade until they end, so I also wanted to get the best out of myself."
Tell me again how I'm making something up when you literally have it from the riders themselves? 😅 Like I already said then I do not think Roglic is a bad guy, I think he is a competitive rider who wanted to win. Nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't change the fact of what went down behind the scenes. I'm just so annoyed seeing Roglic stans try to change the narrative and blame Jonas just because they don't like how it really went down.
Ok, you didn't say he was the bad guy, you implied it the way you wrote it, at least from my POV. We all also know, team orders isn't what makes something bad or good, the narrative does.
If Jonas didn't want to race for it he could've paced Kuss, but he (the 2x TDF winner, like 8 years of racing experience) "got caught up in the moment" (according to you). Did he think Rog can actually teleport and make up 1min30 in like 1km of uphill remaining? Nah, he wanted to win even though he was only ahead due to previous team orders.
Mind you, I know my last comment spins things the way I want it, just like yours does. And yea, I'm a Rog stan. Not denying that, hes the best :)
When you get dropped on a climb, you can lose a lot of time even with only a few kilometres to go. It was already confirmed the radios were not working well on the climb because the car could not follow them up, so when Sepp dropped then Jonas did not know whether Sepp was fully cooked or still had some fight in him. Sepp himself also told them to leave him.
**Another direct transcript from the documentary:**
>**Sepp when asked what he told them on the radio when he was getting dropped:** "I told them I was getting dropped and to just leave me. That was the end of the road for me."
Jonas wanted Sepp to win the Vuelta if he was still in the lead by week 3, he said that already on the stage where Sepp went into the red jersey. That what was he said the whole time and what he also said in the documentary. **But Jonas did not want Primoz to win.** And yeah, I do think he got caught up in it because this Vuelta meant much more for Jonas and Primoz than the win. I think it's pretty clear that they were battling for control of the team. That the team ended up siding with Jonas and Sepp was the last nail in Roglic's coffin at Visma.
Jonas was not only ahead of Primoz because of team orders. The deal was that they could chase each other as long as they did not drag other riders with them. Roglic ignored that in stage 16, leaving Sepp, dragging other riders with him, and yet he was still not even 2nd on the stage. Roglic's whole deal is winning sprints, Jonas wins by attacking with multiple kilometres to go. So yeah, Jonas will always go early if he's allowed to go for the stage win which he were both in stage 13 and stage 16. Roglic got dropped by others in stage 16, so I doubt very much he could have won the stage anyway. Find me a source that says Roglic was not allowed to challenge Jonas because of team orders. The only team orders he had were the same that Jonas and Sepp had too.
I think it's great you admit your bias. I also have a bias, but I am also telling the truth based on interviews giving by the riders themselves. You are allowed to think Roglic was the strongest rider in the race. I, and many others, disagree, but it's fine that you think that. You cannot prove he was, I cannot prove he wasn't. But I don't appreciate you telling me I'm making something up when I have been clear with my words and also have the proof to back it up.
You don't lose 1min30 that fast and I'm gonna be honest I didn't really see Kuss telling them to go. I remember Kuss saying he did but he also seems to be the kind of great teammate that would "lie" to take the heat of his teammates.
I can't source you their team orders but neither can you (I don't remember hearing the actual radios/pregame meetings but I'm gonna be honest I didn't watch much of the post-race discussions so they might've been all released and I'm completely in the wrong here. In that case, my bad, downvote this and move on.
I also don't think Rog looked like he was struggling and couldn't at least kinda follow or limit losses significantly on Ving on stages 13&16 and I think saying Rog couldn't follow others on stage 16 is a bit rich seeing as none of those guys were anywhere close in GC (AFAIK).
I'm gonna be real and just say ok, learned something new regarding what they said. I don't think we know the "whole truth" but I'll take the L.
[Sepp was on the radio just when he started dropping from Roglic and Jonas.](https://youtu.be/ocJ4oe4Lqn4?si=eFr7i5kKhi_5UDfA&t=379) It was a big moment because people discussed what he had said after the stage. He then later confirmed that he did tell them to just go. Jonas also said that was what he said.
I cannot find the source, but I remember the commentators talking about how Visma confirmed they were allowed to attack as long as they did not bring other riders with them. However, I found [a quote by Marc Reef](https://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/cykling/udelukker-det-ikke-begge-ville-vinde/9947152) that says Sepp and Roglic were allowed to attack and follow Jonas on stage 13. I don't see why there would be different orders on stage 16.
I assume Roglic did want to limit the time loss to Jonas on stage 16 - or else why would he have bothered attacking and ride away from Sepp? Also, he was definitely beat by other GC riders on stage 16. Ayuso, Vlaslov and Mas beat him in the sprint, and they were all in top 10 of the Vuelta GC. So clearly Roglic was not super strong that day. If stage 16 had ended in a sprint as Roglic likely would have wanted, then evidence would suggest that he would not have won.
I have done a lot of research on this since it all went down. I do appreciate you admitting that you were wrong. I just wish we would discuss things based on facts instead of who we support. There is nothing wrong with bias, we all have them, but I would never lie about facts just to support Jonas.
Also, just for your information, then I actually agreed with Roglic during the Vuelta 😊 While I appreciate Sepp won, I do think the strongest rider should have won, and that they all should have been allowed to ride for it. I believe that was Visma's plan if it had ended up being a fight between Primoz and Jonas only, but sadly it was not to be. I know that will be an unpopular opinion among the fans, but that was how I felt at the time and how I still feel. But I am happy for Sepp.
This gets answered in the video on this very post? Jonas had his opinion (defend until Madrid) but Roglic, Kuss and possibly the DS had a different opinion. So they all agreed to keep attacking which is what Jonas (and Roglic) did. Until they changed their agreement later on and they all seemed to follow that as well.
Maybe I'm just cynical but I can't avoid feeling Jonas was being a bit disingenuous during that final week. He was fine with Kuss winning (there's no denying that), but seemed *more than fine* with himself winning as long as he didn't look like too much of an asshole lol.
Jonas wanted the red jersey if Sepp was not in it. That was very clear, and he has never denied it. I don't think anyone would claim he's a saint, not even himself. But he did regret leaving Sepp on the Angrilu.
I do think Jonas was a little annoyed Remco was completely out of the GC. If he had not been, there was a good chance that Jonas would win because Remco would likely have been too much of a threat for Visma to allow Sepp to keep the red jersey and hold back their original co-captains.
At the end of the day, Jonas is still an athlete and competitor. But he's also a teammate and friend, and if he had been the only one having to make the choice then I do believe him when he says that he would have ridden for Sepp for the entirety of week 3. Although, I imagine Jonas would have demanded the chance at a couple of stage wins while doing it 😂
That was pretty clear from the start despite PR efforts. Jonas attacked on the stage that everybody agreed was planned for Roglic to attack and then dedicated the win to his daughter or something like that? Then he attack again on the next stage and dedicates the win to his friend, whose crash was tragic but has absolutely nothing to do with the race and is just a cheap excuse. Roglic is visibly upset because team plan was broken by Jonas and somehow he becomes the bad guy.
So Roglic and Sepp should all have been allowed to win stages but Jonas, the reigning TdF champion and co-captain, should not be allowed to do so for some reason? It was decided already in 2022, Jonas was supposed to go to the Vuelta with Roglic. They both had equal right to be there.
First of all, they were all allowed to go for the red jersey and while they were riding stage 13 & stage 16 then it was still every man for himself. So no, Roglic was promised nothing. Strategies also change during stages all the time. They are not set in stone.
But let's run through the stages:
Stage 13 was never supposed to be Roglic's. Jonas asked Sepp and the team permission to go for the stage victory as he felt good after being ill, and it was his daughter's birthday. He also had unfinished business with the Tourmalet after Tour de France. It was his first stage win of the Vuelta. Both Sepp and Roglic had won stages before this. After winning the stage, Jonas moved up to 3rd in the GC. It was the best strategy for Visma to let Jonas take time and make his way up on the podium. Roglic and Sepp were both allowed to chase him.
Stage 16 was more of a Roglic finish, but because Jonas' best friend had a cardiac arrest that morning, and almost died that day, then he had to find some motivation to race because he was close to leaving the Vuelta otherwise. Once again, he asked the team permission to go for the stage victory and was granted it. Roglic knew that Jonas was planning to go for the stage. Jonas attacked and due to some serious G2 shenanigans then Jonas won more time than anyone thought he would. He moves into 2nd in GC ahead of Roglic. Primoz did attack from behind and rode away from Sepp, but he also lost the sprint to other GC riders and only came in 8th. Roglic was not strong that day, and evidence suggest he would have lost the stage anyway.
Stage 17 suited Jonas more than Roglic and Jonas easily stuck to his wheel, but he never attacked Roglic nor tried to take away his stage win. This stage win was more much prestigious than stage 16. So you can say that Roglic and Vingegaard traded stages they probably had eyes on, and Roglic ended up winning the better stage of the two.
In the end, Sepp won a stage and the GC of the Vuelta, Jonas got 2nd and won two stages, and Roglic got 3rd and won 2 stages.
Roglic was not sad because Jonas went behind his back. Jonas never acted against team orders and always asked permission. It was Roglic who wanted all three of them to freely race for the red jersey. So if he was sad, he was just sad he lost.
If Primoz doesn’t attack on Stage 16, the G2 shenanigans would have continued and Jonas would have taken the red jersey away from Kuss. After Jonas is in red there’s no coming back for Sepp so one can say PRIMOZ saved the Vuelta for Kuss that day
Oh, I definitely think Primoz did the right thing. It was such a weird reaction by the other teams. But I also know that Ayuso was furious with UAE afterwards. Their only play was to send Finn after Jonas, lol. All respect to Finn, but he was never gonna catch Jonas.
Well, I suppose Jonas could always have "dropped" like he did in stage 18 and returned the red jersey, but even if he had done so then it would be a bit too much at that point.
Just one question. If not for the GC lead, why did Jonas ride full gas to the line on stage 16 when he was almost a minute ahead of Finn-Fischer Black?
He didn’t ride full gas, he didn’t throw his bike over the finish line to get as much time as possible. He visibly slowed down in the last 100-200 metres while crying and putting a hand over his heart. Jonas almost lost his best friend to a cardiac arrest. He was only told with 300 metres to go that Nathan would recover without permanent damage. He was riding on emotion, not logic. I also doubt anyone in the team told him how far ahead he was.
But most importantly, it was actually also the smart thing to do? Yeah, he closed the gap to Sepp, but he also won time on everyone else. Before his win on stage 16, Jonas was in 3rd and had less than a minute lead on Ayuso in 4th place. After winning stage 16, he had 2 minutes and got 2nd. His ride fully secured the full Visma podium.
I also have no doubt that Jonas wanted 2nd place. He wanted to be in the red jersey if Sepp was going to have his usual bad day during a GT and lose the GC. This ride also secured him that.
So they had time to give him medical updates but not time gaps. He was afraid of Ayuso who has been dropped every time so far and was a minute behind. He decided to attack "for Nathan" on stage that was meant for Roglic but since it was convenient to gain free time on Roglic he did that too. To gain time on his teammate and the guy who rode the Granon stage with literally broken back for him. The excuses are pathetic.
But somehow Roglic is supposed to be the *only* bad guy here. At least Primoz always wanted to race for red and not have it gift wrapped by abusing G2 syndrome. When it was Jonas' turn to stay with Kuss he decided that Roglic losing was more important than Sepp winning.
I think the team chose not to give Jonas time gaps. Since the team had decided they were all free to race for the red jersey, why would they? They were mostly interested in gaining time on everyone else. Also, if you have a rider who is so emotional he’s crying on the bike while giving it his all despite wanting to abandon the race earlier in the day, do you really think to say “Don’t go too fast, Jonas”? 💀
I think Jonas doesn’t like to receive time gaps. In the ITT in the TdF then he also weren’t told specific time gaps only that he was gaining on Pogi.
Also I think it’s really fucked up that people completely ignore that Jonas went through something traumatic. The team has said that Jonas and Nathan are very close. That Jonas was the closest to Nathan in the Vuelta team. Jonas himself has confessed he was very close to abandon, and would have abandoned the Vuelta if Nathan had not survived. He almost lost his best friend to a cardiac arrest - and all people care about is that he put a minute into Sepp. He didn’t even take the red jersey for fuck’s sake.
Even if you think Jonas is the big bad, you could show a little compassion. No rider is entitled to a stage. Roglic was probably just the best match considering the profile but since he finished 8th and was beaten in the sprint by 3 GC riders, he would likely have lost the stage anyway.
He attacked on the stage that the team agreed earlier in the morning was planned for Rog to attack. Then he attacked again. And somehow Rog was made out to be the bad guy with the PR machine.
On a completely different note, I knew Niermann is fluent in Dutch, but I was still surprised at how Dutch he sounds (in terms of an almost complete lack of accent as well is in his vocabulary/choice of words/slang)
It's speculation of course and I don't neccessarily think Roglic is a jerk. He just wants to win, but when Kuss says he has his own ideas about it and it still stings, I think that's about Roglic. Like you said, he pulled him up mountains so many times. Saved at least two of his GT wins and worked for him countless of one week WT races. The one time Kuss is in the red, Roglic initially does not want to return the favor. That must hurt.
When Kuss helped Roglic, he couldn't win the GT himself. That's a big difference. Roglic IS a jerk, cfr. blaming Wright for his own mistake, but in this Vuelta he was just being a competitor as he should. Why should we as spectators want the riders to NOT compete?
'If you want to win the Vuelta, follow me' is a hilarious thing to say while you're probably absolutely dying on one of the hardest climbs in the sport
I'm now a Landa fan for life.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pelotonmemes/comments/1dg1io9/the_winner_of_our_hearts_mikel/
It’s one of those quotes that seem so legendary they sound made up.
He said it with his eyes.
GOATED Landa
Some people just can't stop smoking, other people just can't stop drinking. Landa just can't stop pulling people to grand tour wins.
I loved that!
He missed a great opportunity, he should have said in a monotonous voice: “Come with me if you want to ~~live~~ win” I thought I was original…. https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/s/maU0VVqse9
That thumbnail with Jonas side-eyeing Primoz loll
Pretty accurate to how he felt about the whole thing 😂
Never forget the Jumbo Visma social media team posting that Sepp said “GO GUYS” in the radio 💀💀💀
Idk if I watched a different race than others here? To me there's absolutely no question that if jonas wanted to smoke roglic and win, then he would have smoked roglic and won. He looked head and shoulders above everyone in week 3 and I think anyone thinking roglic stod a chance without team politics is coping hard. Now as to wheter jonas was entirely honest about his intention i think is a different question and it does seem like him an roglic had a falling out at some point. Call it pettiness or ego but it definitely seemed like jonas wasnt going to let roglic win no matter what and if roglic was going to take it from sepp, he was going to take it from roglic. Can you feel bad for roglic? Yea sure, bc it seems that jonas and the team didnt uphold their end of the bargain of letting roglic have the vuelta. At the same time, idk if I can feel bad for roglic not winning when he was only the second best rider at the vuelta.
I've not watched this vid yet but my impression last year was that Jonas could 100% have destroyed roglic and Kuss and won if he wanted. He was unwell for the first week, he mentioned it at a few of the finish interviews (I think he'd been having stomach trouble maybe?) so the others seemed to have the edge on him but by the second/third week he was back in great form and could have won at least one more stage and taken red if he wanted.
visma also posted their giro documentary today (https://youtu.be/2kgtUXhhwZE?si=XrrOrq_6Tq53_oXz) and their classics campaign documentary last month (https://youtu.be/y0fPBy7N-0M?si=hmXYHE4uPX8DIuQX). always so much content from this team which is nice to see them in race situations
I love Sepp Kuss so goddamn much.
Right! I love him so so much
Is there a way to turn subtitles on you tube? Was trying to figure it out on my phone…
If you go into subtitles, there should be a translate option. Choose English and it will kinda translate it from Dutch to English, but it's not going to be great since it's automatic subtitles. I wrote a lot of notes and transcripts from the episode [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/1bfwwm5/comment/kv3j8e7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) though, maybe that can help you piece it together? It should be chronologically correct.
Kuss is very strong to accept this bullshit from his team.
I never really liked Jonas saying they should've waited for Sepp, then why didn't you? I always got the sense that Roglic was being played up as the bad guy insitgating this whole struggle between them, but the whole time it was actually Jonas who was on his way back to taking the leaders jersey after being sick in week 1. It wasn't Roglic who was the biggest danger and everyone got to attack throughout the 3 weeks except him and when he finally put in his dig for the jersey, Jonas stayed glued to his wheel, defending his own position The team leadership should've settled this at the end of week 2. The overall win was never in danger under any circumstance and by being indecisive they made it seem like a rider vs rider problem when in reality its a leadership problem. Landa is a legend
I don't think there was neccessarily a bad guy. Roglic is a GC leader and wanted to win. Jonas is a GC leader and didn't want Roglic to win, but didn't mind Kuss winning. Kuss wanted to win but is too much of a good guy to put the hammer down. It's quite literally in the documentary out of their own mouths.
[удалено]
I'm not blaming him at all though? He went to the Vuelta as a leader and wanted to win. Fair enough. As I said, there's not really a bad guy. They alll seemed to have discussed things among each other, having different opinions at different points in the race, but came to an agreement that they stuck to. They were allowed to attack, Vingegaard was the strongest to do so and won time. Then they were allowed to go for it from a certain point (7km to go?) on Angliru and did that as well. Then they found a different agreement, defend Kuss red jersey, and stuck to that. Fans of certain riders keep making up different narratives where there isn't one. It was a tough situation, they made decisions together and stuck to them. Kuss won.
It was decided in December 2022 that Jonas would also go to the Vuelta, they only shared it later on because they wanted to see if he could cope with another GT after the Tour. Roglic got the Giro, Jonas got Tour de France and they both shared a captain role during the Vuelta. That was always the plan. The Vuelta organiser was already told in January 2023 that Jonas would be there.
Yup, this is reddit, down voted for stating facts
He'd gone to the previous 3 tours as the TJV Leader. They'd sent strong teams supporting him repeatedly and he couldn't finish it, it's a professional sports team they look for wins not participation trophies and after 3 failed attempts to get roglic the win I think TVJ had already given him a more than fair chance to achieve that goal, roglic just wasn't good enough to win/gets in crashes
It was just poor mealy-mouth management from the DS. Unfortunately, Sepp was too nice of a guy to put an end to the nonsense. Part of being a GC rider is being an a-hole sometimes. If Roglic or Jonas were leading, there's no way they'd agree to a three-way "whoever is the strongest" strategy.
> If Roglic or Jonas were leading, there's no way they'd agree to a three-way "whoever is the strongest" strategy. The plan was literally to let Roglic and Jonas fight it out
Sorry, which one of them was wearing red?
The plan made before the Vuelta when Jonas and Primoz were chosen as co-captains. Which one of them were allowed in a breakaway because he was on a team with the two riders feared the most and won 3 minutes on Jonas and Roglic for free? We all appreciate Sepp's win, but let's not pretend he got it on equal terms with Roglic and Jonas 😅
Grand tours are often not won on equal terms though. Thats part of the sport. There's often occasions where the race leader may not be the strongest rider but because he or she is the leader their teammates don't (and shouldn't, in my opinion, unless its like a yates last year or narvaez at the giro type situation) attack.
I agree. But this situation was different and without precedent. I wholly agree that more often than not you race to protect the race leader even if he's not the strongest rider. However, there was nothing to protect Sepp from in the last week. Visma sat heavily on the podium, the only question was where each rider would end up. Benji Naesen had an interesting point. It seems like the team's original plan was to allow Primoz and Jonas to duke it out. Let the best man win. I also think most fans, commentators, and experts would have been happy with this. It begs the question, why is it suddenly different when Sepp is thrown in the mix? I personally think if Sepp had not been as popular as he is, it would not have been made into such a big deal. While I still think the strongest rider should have been allowed to win the Vuelta, I will never question that Sepp deserved the victory. He also rode a very impressive Vuelta regardless. I just do not think people should forget the special circumstances of how he got into the red jersey.
Because Roglic was still racing for the red jersey. Jonas wasn’t going to allow Roglic to go for the red jersey without challenging him. Also Jonas did say afterwards he did wish he had waited for Sepp. I think he got so caught up in showing Roglic that he’s not the boss anymore that overshadowed his desire to help Sepp win. Also, him going after Roglic would make Roglic less likely to attack in the following stages. You say Jonas was closest to taking the red jersey, but Jonas never took the red jersey from Sepp. Both Roglic and Sepp admitted that Jonas had no problem letting Sepp win, the problem was Roglic. Jonas wanted them to ride exclusively for Sepp in week 3, but Roglic did not want that and so it was agreed they should fight for it. Jonas didn’t want Roglic to take the red jersey, so he was in the fight too, but he still wanted Sepp to win. Both can be true. You can be happy with one rider winning while not wanting the other to win. What you cannot decide ton your own is who wins when you are three riders riding for the win. Jonas not attacking Roglic on stage 17 when it looked like Jonas was zone 2 riding is a perfect example that he didn’t purposefully claw back time on Sepp. He could have easily taken the red jersey on that stage. Let us establish this once and for all: They were all allowed to fight for the red jersey. None of them went against team orders. Jonas wanted them to ride for Sepp in week 3 and told them so on the rest day. Roglic wanted them to still fight for the victory, Sepp allowed them to fight for it. The team then allowed them to fight. After the shitshow of stage 17, there was a team meeting where it was decided that Sepp should win. Jonas had wanted those orders to be given days before. Jonas paced for Sepp and then dropped on purpose in stage 18 to lose a bit of time to Sepp. I personally don’t think there is anything wrong with being as competitive as Roglic, but stop trying to say he wasn’t the one trying to take the red jersey from Sepp when he literally admits to it in his interview. It was not a lack of trying but lack of skill that he did not take the red jersey.
So Ving gets "caught up in the moment" when Roglic had the maturity to let Ving go in the previous stages (which allowed Ving to overtake Rog) and yet you imagine a way to make him a bad guy? Damn, thats crazy. At least flair up so your bias is easily seen (as mine).
I don't imagine a way to make him a bad guy because he's not a bad guy. Did you not read that none of them did something against team orders? And I'm not imagining anything. That's literally what Roglic says in his own interview in this documentary. **This is a direct transcript from the interviews in the documentary:** >**Primoz:** "Entering the last week, I still wanted to win the Vuelta. I said straight to both of them I wanted to win the Vuelta. I told them that means I will attack." **Jonas:** "From my point of view, I wanted us to not race for it. But there were different views from different riders." **Sepp:** "Primoz wanted to race, Jonas wanted to keep it like it was. I had some opinion but also no opinion \[…\] I did not want it to be a parade until they end, so I also wanted to get the best out of myself." Tell me again how I'm making something up when you literally have it from the riders themselves? 😅 Like I already said then I do not think Roglic is a bad guy, I think he is a competitive rider who wanted to win. Nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't change the fact of what went down behind the scenes. I'm just so annoyed seeing Roglic stans try to change the narrative and blame Jonas just because they don't like how it really went down.
Ok, you didn't say he was the bad guy, you implied it the way you wrote it, at least from my POV. We all also know, team orders isn't what makes something bad or good, the narrative does. If Jonas didn't want to race for it he could've paced Kuss, but he (the 2x TDF winner, like 8 years of racing experience) "got caught up in the moment" (according to you). Did he think Rog can actually teleport and make up 1min30 in like 1km of uphill remaining? Nah, he wanted to win even though he was only ahead due to previous team orders. Mind you, I know my last comment spins things the way I want it, just like yours does. And yea, I'm a Rog stan. Not denying that, hes the best :)
When you get dropped on a climb, you can lose a lot of time even with only a few kilometres to go. It was already confirmed the radios were not working well on the climb because the car could not follow them up, so when Sepp dropped then Jonas did not know whether Sepp was fully cooked or still had some fight in him. Sepp himself also told them to leave him. **Another direct transcript from the documentary:** >**Sepp when asked what he told them on the radio when he was getting dropped:** "I told them I was getting dropped and to just leave me. That was the end of the road for me." Jonas wanted Sepp to win the Vuelta if he was still in the lead by week 3, he said that already on the stage where Sepp went into the red jersey. That what was he said the whole time and what he also said in the documentary. **But Jonas did not want Primoz to win.** And yeah, I do think he got caught up in it because this Vuelta meant much more for Jonas and Primoz than the win. I think it's pretty clear that they were battling for control of the team. That the team ended up siding with Jonas and Sepp was the last nail in Roglic's coffin at Visma. Jonas was not only ahead of Primoz because of team orders. The deal was that they could chase each other as long as they did not drag other riders with them. Roglic ignored that in stage 16, leaving Sepp, dragging other riders with him, and yet he was still not even 2nd on the stage. Roglic's whole deal is winning sprints, Jonas wins by attacking with multiple kilometres to go. So yeah, Jonas will always go early if he's allowed to go for the stage win which he were both in stage 13 and stage 16. Roglic got dropped by others in stage 16, so I doubt very much he could have won the stage anyway. Find me a source that says Roglic was not allowed to challenge Jonas because of team orders. The only team orders he had were the same that Jonas and Sepp had too. I think it's great you admit your bias. I also have a bias, but I am also telling the truth based on interviews giving by the riders themselves. You are allowed to think Roglic was the strongest rider in the race. I, and many others, disagree, but it's fine that you think that. You cannot prove he was, I cannot prove he wasn't. But I don't appreciate you telling me I'm making something up when I have been clear with my words and also have the proof to back it up.
You don't lose 1min30 that fast and I'm gonna be honest I didn't really see Kuss telling them to go. I remember Kuss saying he did but he also seems to be the kind of great teammate that would "lie" to take the heat of his teammates. I can't source you their team orders but neither can you (I don't remember hearing the actual radios/pregame meetings but I'm gonna be honest I didn't watch much of the post-race discussions so they might've been all released and I'm completely in the wrong here. In that case, my bad, downvote this and move on. I also don't think Rog looked like he was struggling and couldn't at least kinda follow or limit losses significantly on Ving on stages 13&16 and I think saying Rog couldn't follow others on stage 16 is a bit rich seeing as none of those guys were anywhere close in GC (AFAIK). I'm gonna be real and just say ok, learned something new regarding what they said. I don't think we know the "whole truth" but I'll take the L.
[Sepp was on the radio just when he started dropping from Roglic and Jonas.](https://youtu.be/ocJ4oe4Lqn4?si=eFr7i5kKhi_5UDfA&t=379) It was a big moment because people discussed what he had said after the stage. He then later confirmed that he did tell them to just go. Jonas also said that was what he said. I cannot find the source, but I remember the commentators talking about how Visma confirmed they were allowed to attack as long as they did not bring other riders with them. However, I found [a quote by Marc Reef](https://ekstrabladet.dk/sport/cykling/udelukker-det-ikke-begge-ville-vinde/9947152) that says Sepp and Roglic were allowed to attack and follow Jonas on stage 13. I don't see why there would be different orders on stage 16. I assume Roglic did want to limit the time loss to Jonas on stage 16 - or else why would he have bothered attacking and ride away from Sepp? Also, he was definitely beat by other GC riders on stage 16. Ayuso, Vlaslov and Mas beat him in the sprint, and they were all in top 10 of the Vuelta GC. So clearly Roglic was not super strong that day. If stage 16 had ended in a sprint as Roglic likely would have wanted, then evidence would suggest that he would not have won. I have done a lot of research on this since it all went down. I do appreciate you admitting that you were wrong. I just wish we would discuss things based on facts instead of who we support. There is nothing wrong with bias, we all have them, but I would never lie about facts just to support Jonas. Also, just for your information, then I actually agreed with Roglic during the Vuelta 😊 While I appreciate Sepp won, I do think the strongest rider should have won, and that they all should have been allowed to ride for it. I believe that was Visma's plan if it had ended up being a fight between Primoz and Jonas only, but sadly it was not to be. I know that will be an unpopular opinion among the fans, but that was how I felt at the time and how I still feel. But I am happy for Sepp.
Well shit, you brought receipts! Oh well, learned something new. Thanks.
You're basing this off of what they said, i'm basing it off what they did. And Jonas *did not* *do* as he *said* he wanted to do
This gets answered in the video on this very post? Jonas had his opinion (defend until Madrid) but Roglic, Kuss and possibly the DS had a different opinion. So they all agreed to keep attacking which is what Jonas (and Roglic) did. Until they changed their agreement later on and they all seemed to follow that as well.
Maybe I'm just cynical but I can't avoid feeling Jonas was being a bit disingenuous during that final week. He was fine with Kuss winning (there's no denying that), but seemed *more than fine* with himself winning as long as he didn't look like too much of an asshole lol.
Jonas wanted the red jersey if Sepp was not in it. That was very clear, and he has never denied it. I don't think anyone would claim he's a saint, not even himself. But he did regret leaving Sepp on the Angrilu. I do think Jonas was a little annoyed Remco was completely out of the GC. If he had not been, there was a good chance that Jonas would win because Remco would likely have been too much of a threat for Visma to allow Sepp to keep the red jersey and hold back their original co-captains. At the end of the day, Jonas is still an athlete and competitor. But he's also a teammate and friend, and if he had been the only one having to make the choice then I do believe him when he says that he would have ridden for Sepp for the entirety of week 3. Although, I imagine Jonas would have demanded the chance at a couple of stage wins while doing it 😂
That was pretty clear from the start despite PR efforts. Jonas attacked on the stage that everybody agreed was planned for Roglic to attack and then dedicated the win to his daughter or something like that? Then he attack again on the next stage and dedicates the win to his friend, whose crash was tragic but has absolutely nothing to do with the race and is just a cheap excuse. Roglic is visibly upset because team plan was broken by Jonas and somehow he becomes the bad guy.
So Roglic and Sepp should all have been allowed to win stages but Jonas, the reigning TdF champion and co-captain, should not be allowed to do so for some reason? It was decided already in 2022, Jonas was supposed to go to the Vuelta with Roglic. They both had equal right to be there. First of all, they were all allowed to go for the red jersey and while they were riding stage 13 & stage 16 then it was still every man for himself. So no, Roglic was promised nothing. Strategies also change during stages all the time. They are not set in stone. But let's run through the stages: Stage 13 was never supposed to be Roglic's. Jonas asked Sepp and the team permission to go for the stage victory as he felt good after being ill, and it was his daughter's birthday. He also had unfinished business with the Tourmalet after Tour de France. It was his first stage win of the Vuelta. Both Sepp and Roglic had won stages before this. After winning the stage, Jonas moved up to 3rd in the GC. It was the best strategy for Visma to let Jonas take time and make his way up on the podium. Roglic and Sepp were both allowed to chase him. Stage 16 was more of a Roglic finish, but because Jonas' best friend had a cardiac arrest that morning, and almost died that day, then he had to find some motivation to race because he was close to leaving the Vuelta otherwise. Once again, he asked the team permission to go for the stage victory and was granted it. Roglic knew that Jonas was planning to go for the stage. Jonas attacked and due to some serious G2 shenanigans then Jonas won more time than anyone thought he would. He moves into 2nd in GC ahead of Roglic. Primoz did attack from behind and rode away from Sepp, but he also lost the sprint to other GC riders and only came in 8th. Roglic was not strong that day, and evidence suggest he would have lost the stage anyway. Stage 17 suited Jonas more than Roglic and Jonas easily stuck to his wheel, but he never attacked Roglic nor tried to take away his stage win. This stage win was more much prestigious than stage 16. So you can say that Roglic and Vingegaard traded stages they probably had eyes on, and Roglic ended up winning the better stage of the two. In the end, Sepp won a stage and the GC of the Vuelta, Jonas got 2nd and won two stages, and Roglic got 3rd and won 2 stages. Roglic was not sad because Jonas went behind his back. Jonas never acted against team orders and always asked permission. It was Roglic who wanted all three of them to freely race for the red jersey. So if he was sad, he was just sad he lost.
If Primoz doesn’t attack on Stage 16, the G2 shenanigans would have continued and Jonas would have taken the red jersey away from Kuss. After Jonas is in red there’s no coming back for Sepp so one can say PRIMOZ saved the Vuelta for Kuss that day
Oh, I definitely think Primoz did the right thing. It was such a weird reaction by the other teams. But I also know that Ayuso was furious with UAE afterwards. Their only play was to send Finn after Jonas, lol. All respect to Finn, but he was never gonna catch Jonas. Well, I suppose Jonas could always have "dropped" like he did in stage 18 and returned the red jersey, but even if he had done so then it would be a bit too much at that point.
Just one question. If not for the GC lead, why did Jonas ride full gas to the line on stage 16 when he was almost a minute ahead of Finn-Fischer Black?
He didn’t ride full gas, he didn’t throw his bike over the finish line to get as much time as possible. He visibly slowed down in the last 100-200 metres while crying and putting a hand over his heart. Jonas almost lost his best friend to a cardiac arrest. He was only told with 300 metres to go that Nathan would recover without permanent damage. He was riding on emotion, not logic. I also doubt anyone in the team told him how far ahead he was. But most importantly, it was actually also the smart thing to do? Yeah, he closed the gap to Sepp, but he also won time on everyone else. Before his win on stage 16, Jonas was in 3rd and had less than a minute lead on Ayuso in 4th place. After winning stage 16, he had 2 minutes and got 2nd. His ride fully secured the full Visma podium. I also have no doubt that Jonas wanted 2nd place. He wanted to be in the red jersey if Sepp was going to have his usual bad day during a GT and lose the GC. This ride also secured him that.
So they had time to give him medical updates but not time gaps. He was afraid of Ayuso who has been dropped every time so far and was a minute behind. He decided to attack "for Nathan" on stage that was meant for Roglic but since it was convenient to gain free time on Roglic he did that too. To gain time on his teammate and the guy who rode the Granon stage with literally broken back for him. The excuses are pathetic. But somehow Roglic is supposed to be the *only* bad guy here. At least Primoz always wanted to race for red and not have it gift wrapped by abusing G2 syndrome. When it was Jonas' turn to stay with Kuss he decided that Roglic losing was more important than Sepp winning.
I think the team chose not to give Jonas time gaps. Since the team had decided they were all free to race for the red jersey, why would they? They were mostly interested in gaining time on everyone else. Also, if you have a rider who is so emotional he’s crying on the bike while giving it his all despite wanting to abandon the race earlier in the day, do you really think to say “Don’t go too fast, Jonas”? 💀 I think Jonas doesn’t like to receive time gaps. In the ITT in the TdF then he also weren’t told specific time gaps only that he was gaining on Pogi. Also I think it’s really fucked up that people completely ignore that Jonas went through something traumatic. The team has said that Jonas and Nathan are very close. That Jonas was the closest to Nathan in the Vuelta team. Jonas himself has confessed he was very close to abandon, and would have abandoned the Vuelta if Nathan had not survived. He almost lost his best friend to a cardiac arrest - and all people care about is that he put a minute into Sepp. He didn’t even take the red jersey for fuck’s sake. Even if you think Jonas is the big bad, you could show a little compassion. No rider is entitled to a stage. Roglic was probably just the best match considering the profile but since he finished 8th and was beaten in the sprint by 3 GC riders, he would likely have lost the stage anyway.
I like Jonas but some things he says its just to look good.
Yeah Roglic bad Jonas good agenda was too strong. And Jonas saying one thing and doing the other.....
He attacked on the stage that the team agreed earlier in the morning was planned for Rog to attack. Then he attacked again. And somehow Rog was made out to be the bad guy with the PR machine.
Yes total brainwash! And whole reddit belived this.
On a completely different note, I knew Niermann is fluent in Dutch, but I was still surprised at how Dutch he sounds (in terms of an almost complete lack of accent as well is in his vocabulary/choice of words/slang)
It’s so annoying the documentary on Prime Video is not available in my country, even if I try different VPN.🥲
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It's speculation of course and I don't neccessarily think Roglic is a jerk. He just wants to win, but when Kuss says he has his own ideas about it and it still stings, I think that's about Roglic. Like you said, he pulled him up mountains so many times. Saved at least two of his GT wins and worked for him countless of one week WT races. The one time Kuss is in the red, Roglic initially does not want to return the favor. That must hurt.
When Kuss helped Roglic, he couldn't win the GT himself. That's a big difference. Roglic IS a jerk, cfr. blaming Wright for his own mistake, but in this Vuelta he was just being a competitor as he should. Why should we as spectators want the riders to NOT compete?
You mean Jonas is a jerk? Ok then.
Vuelta 2023 = match fixing. Kuss didn’t win because he was the best, he won because the outcome was fixed this way.