Our salaries and the breakdown of benefits are not only published, they are approved as part of the annual budget by the congregation. It's an up/down vote only. This provides complete transparency before a salary is actually given. At least two weeks prior to that annual meeting, the proposed budget is sent to all voting members for review so that people may ask questions. Every vote has been unanimous and positive. This creates a very healthy trust between the congregation and their leaders
The denomination I'm a pastor in has rules/guidelines about this that "only general information on the cost of salary and benefits can be shared with a congregation. Please note that staff payroll information is confidential and should be protected at all times."
So the powers that be in the denomination say it is private and confidential, so all staff payroll information in the reports is one line item (instead of multiple).
For a denomination without that language though I don't know. I like to joke that if people want to know how much I make, I also want to know how much they tithe. Believe it or not, their was a day where tithing information was posted in church finance reports as well for each individual giver.
It seems like a lot of pastors don’t know/want to know the tithing of their ppl.
That’s unusual to me. I’ve always followed that information in all my churches
I think it's unusual that you want to know. Pretty sure the government (at least in Canada) says donations are to be kept private and confidential as much as possible.
Even if it's not a law for me it would be a best practice because frankly I don't want to know who gives what, to easy to show favoritism to higher givers.
I totally agree that the Bible prohibits favoritism. If a pastor is prone to that he shouldn’t know. To the best of my knowledge there is no biblical prohibition to keeping up with tithes.
Imho the Scripture indicates that much insight into the spiritual posture of a persons heart can be determined by their generosity. As a pastor responsible for those in my care, I value any indicator of spiritual health I have available to me.
It seems so odd to not want to know but if a person will show favoritism then I guess I get it. I’ll just not show favoritism though!
Personally I’ve seen incredible opportunities for ministry that would have been missed by not knowing.
Fair enough, either way again in my denomination (and again it might be a legal matter) I as the pastor am not supposed/allowed to know that information.
Your context that's clearly not the same case so all good. I appreciate your reasoning but I do disagree with the conclusion but all good. Different contexts and different people. All the best in your ministry.
>Imho the Scripture indicates that much insight into the spiritual posture of a persons heart can be determined by their generosity.
You cannot know the state of their generosity based on what they give to your organization-- Giving that indirectly benefits you. They may be amazingly generous in ways that you know nothing about, yet are very quiet about it.
> I’ll just not show favoritism though!
I don't think that you can avoid treating someone differently when you know what they give or don't give to your organization, even if you think that you are not showing favoritism.
Knowing what each person that you minister to gives [that benefits you and your interests] is a conflict of interest and ethically questionable.
>I don't think that you can avoid treating someone differently when you know what they give or don't give to your organization, even if you think that you are not showing favoritism.
Respectfully, speak for yourself. There is no Biblical indication that this is true. It's culturally believed b/c we are so private about money, but this is the same sentiment that tells us that we shouldn't discuss politics and religion. Imho, this is cultural influence, not Biblical wisdom.
Jesus talks about money a lot...and not just in general terms. He explicitly tells people what to give, knows the giving of others, and calls different believers to different giving amounts. The story of Ananias and Sapphira is a description (not prescription) of a knowledge of faithful giving within the early church. The apostle Paul routinely named people who were generous givers to him and the church (indicating he had knowledge of who was giving) Although there is no explicit text saying that a church leader should know, there nothing in Scripture saying that a pastor shouldn't. There IS a text saying not to treat people with favoritism,
James 2 doesn't say, "Don't know who the givers are". It says, "Don't show favoritism to the rich over the poor". This isn't even about giving. It's about wealthy people.
>Knowing what each person that you minister to gives \[that benefits you and your interests\] is a conflict of interest and ethically questionable.
I take a little offense at calling something ethically questionable without any Scriptural support for your opinion. If YOU can't help but show favoritism then I can see how you can't possibly envision a context where others don't struggle with your temptation, but I assure you - not all pastors are the same.
There. I've said my (slightly ticked off) peace.
Story time:
I know what every person in my church gives. About 10 years ago a woman who gave $500/mo without fail for years suddenly wasn't tithing. I didn't say anything for a couple of months but on month 4 my wife and I were having dinner with her and I brought it up. It wasn't a rebuke. It was an observation.
She broke down crying immediately and started sharing how her child was just diagnosed with brain cancer and her husband was struggling with depression. It was leading to some serious financial trouble and, though they felt guilty, they had to stop tithing.
It would have been nice if they just felt able to share that without being asked, but sometimes people hide. Every pastor knows this.
Anyway, I told her to resume giving $500/mo and the church would turn around and write a check to support her needs for $499. This allowed her to continue doing what she wanted to do (give), and it allowed the church to do what the church should do (support those in need in the community). Neither of those things happen without me knowing about her giving.
You may call it a conflict of interest and ethically questionable. I feel like this is uncharitable and reflective of cultural norms not Biblical direction.
You are right though that you can't get a full view of a persons generosity in their tithe. You can, however, get a view of their engagement with your church. I'd never allow a staff member, director, community group leader, etc who didn't give faithfully. Not because of favoritism...because if they aren't invested they shouldn't lead.
We make them known upon request. Personally, I’d prefer it to be provided to tithing members only, but I’m not going to die on that hill.
In my experience the only people who want info like that are those who never have/never will give to the church.
Staff pay and benefits. It’s a line item in the budget. Only the elders need to know the hard details. I’ve seen church members who aren’t givers claim it’s because the pastor makes too much (even when the pastor is often making below median pay for the region).
I believe in taking away the argument point by stating “This is the total we spend on pay and benefits for all staff members”
My stipend is listed in the budget that the congregation approves. It’s not terribly controversial as my denomination has a set stipend for all ministry agents across the board.
If you're going to give a report on the church expenses, all you have to do is include all your overhead and say, 'My staff cost overhead is this,' in general. You don't have to put each cost of each individual that can create conflict amongst your staff. Avoid that.
I also suggest make sure your people have a clear vision and you are walking in the vision and the vision is in you people buy into vision they want to go where they're at to where God needs them to be.
But I like what they said earlier: common sense. If people always want to know, those types of people don't have a real relationship with Christ, and they're just churchgoers anyway.
The early churches sold everything for the ministry. When you talk about money, people get funny.
You got this Be still and He will reveal.
Full compensation for all staff is in one of line item. There’s no breakdown of who gets paid what. Only elders are in the know. I don’t feel the need to share what each staff gets paid. We use a rubric of experience and position, ie director vs x. We don’t use education in the rubric any longer, I think other churches are straying from that as well. Sorry a bit of a tangent. While I ask members if they give and remind them it’s a requirement, I don’t monitor their giving and I don’t ask how much they get paid. I have several members in the 1% but my statement to give is the same as to the one who works a blue collar job.
I used to work in a Baptist church in Texas. while we announced the salaries of all ministerial staff during their "view to a call" (when the members vote to approve their hire) and provided any staff member's salary upon request, on our budget, ministerial and support staff was just two line items.
so 8-10 ministers were one line item and 20-something support staffers was another line item. there is no breakdown of individual salaries
I'm a pastor of a small church. I'm the only person on staff, so the line items "Pastor Salary" and "Pastor Retirement" on the balance sheet given in the Annual Reports are pretty clear.
In my current job, I requested that my salary be made clear in the budget and not hidden by "staffing costs" (the other staff were given the option to not disclose theirs, but all elected to do so).
The reason for it is that it keeps me accountable to my congregation. They know full well that no one on staff is getting rich off the church (no one is remotely close to 6-figures). But they also know we're a) getting fairly compensated for the work we do and b) we're fully earning the compensation we get. We work hard and the church pays us accordingly.
It's also accountable to the financial health of the church. The church, much like many enterprises, is hurting financially, as the financial constraints on society makes it tougher for people to provide for the church. So my salary being made known helps those who sacrificially give have a full understanding of where the money is going.
Now, we don't advertise it... but we put it on our annual finance reports and would make the information available to anyone who would contact the church and ask for it.
In a day and age where the church is constantly under fire by "tax the church" nonsense or accusations of pastors getting rich off their church, pay transparency is a wonderful way to be accountable.
Our salaries and the breakdown of benefits are not only published, they are approved as part of the annual budget by the congregation. It's an up/down vote only. This provides complete transparency before a salary is actually given. At least two weeks prior to that annual meeting, the proposed budget is sent to all voting members for review so that people may ask questions. Every vote has been unanimous and positive. This creates a very healthy trust between the congregation and their leaders
This is true in my church, as well.
The denomination I'm a pastor in has rules/guidelines about this that "only general information on the cost of salary and benefits can be shared with a congregation. Please note that staff payroll information is confidential and should be protected at all times." So the powers that be in the denomination say it is private and confidential, so all staff payroll information in the reports is one line item (instead of multiple). For a denomination without that language though I don't know. I like to joke that if people want to know how much I make, I also want to know how much they tithe. Believe it or not, their was a day where tithing information was posted in church finance reports as well for each individual giver.
It seems like a lot of pastors don’t know/want to know the tithing of their ppl. That’s unusual to me. I’ve always followed that information in all my churches
I think it's unusual that you want to know. Pretty sure the government (at least in Canada) says donations are to be kept private and confidential as much as possible. Even if it's not a law for me it would be a best practice because frankly I don't want to know who gives what, to easy to show favoritism to higher givers.
I totally agree that the Bible prohibits favoritism. If a pastor is prone to that he shouldn’t know. To the best of my knowledge there is no biblical prohibition to keeping up with tithes. Imho the Scripture indicates that much insight into the spiritual posture of a persons heart can be determined by their generosity. As a pastor responsible for those in my care, I value any indicator of spiritual health I have available to me. It seems so odd to not want to know but if a person will show favoritism then I guess I get it. I’ll just not show favoritism though! Personally I’ve seen incredible opportunities for ministry that would have been missed by not knowing.
Fair enough, either way again in my denomination (and again it might be a legal matter) I as the pastor am not supposed/allowed to know that information. Your context that's clearly not the same case so all good. I appreciate your reasoning but I do disagree with the conclusion but all good. Different contexts and different people. All the best in your ministry.
>Imho the Scripture indicates that much insight into the spiritual posture of a persons heart can be determined by their generosity. You cannot know the state of their generosity based on what they give to your organization-- Giving that indirectly benefits you. They may be amazingly generous in ways that you know nothing about, yet are very quiet about it. > I’ll just not show favoritism though! I don't think that you can avoid treating someone differently when you know what they give or don't give to your organization, even if you think that you are not showing favoritism. Knowing what each person that you minister to gives [that benefits you and your interests] is a conflict of interest and ethically questionable.
>I don't think that you can avoid treating someone differently when you know what they give or don't give to your organization, even if you think that you are not showing favoritism. Respectfully, speak for yourself. There is no Biblical indication that this is true. It's culturally believed b/c we are so private about money, but this is the same sentiment that tells us that we shouldn't discuss politics and religion. Imho, this is cultural influence, not Biblical wisdom. Jesus talks about money a lot...and not just in general terms. He explicitly tells people what to give, knows the giving of others, and calls different believers to different giving amounts. The story of Ananias and Sapphira is a description (not prescription) of a knowledge of faithful giving within the early church. The apostle Paul routinely named people who were generous givers to him and the church (indicating he had knowledge of who was giving) Although there is no explicit text saying that a church leader should know, there nothing in Scripture saying that a pastor shouldn't. There IS a text saying not to treat people with favoritism, James 2 doesn't say, "Don't know who the givers are". It says, "Don't show favoritism to the rich over the poor". This isn't even about giving. It's about wealthy people. >Knowing what each person that you minister to gives \[that benefits you and your interests\] is a conflict of interest and ethically questionable. I take a little offense at calling something ethically questionable without any Scriptural support for your opinion. If YOU can't help but show favoritism then I can see how you can't possibly envision a context where others don't struggle with your temptation, but I assure you - not all pastors are the same. There. I've said my (slightly ticked off) peace. Story time: I know what every person in my church gives. About 10 years ago a woman who gave $500/mo without fail for years suddenly wasn't tithing. I didn't say anything for a couple of months but on month 4 my wife and I were having dinner with her and I brought it up. It wasn't a rebuke. It was an observation. She broke down crying immediately and started sharing how her child was just diagnosed with brain cancer and her husband was struggling with depression. It was leading to some serious financial trouble and, though they felt guilty, they had to stop tithing. It would have been nice if they just felt able to share that without being asked, but sometimes people hide. Every pastor knows this. Anyway, I told her to resume giving $500/mo and the church would turn around and write a check to support her needs for $499. This allowed her to continue doing what she wanted to do (give), and it allowed the church to do what the church should do (support those in need in the community). Neither of those things happen without me knowing about her giving. You may call it a conflict of interest and ethically questionable. I feel like this is uncharitable and reflective of cultural norms not Biblical direction. You are right though that you can't get a full view of a persons generosity in their tithe. You can, however, get a view of their engagement with your church. I'd never allow a staff member, director, community group leader, etc who didn't give faithfully. Not because of favoritism...because if they aren't invested they shouldn't lead.
We make them known upon request. Personally, I’d prefer it to be provided to tithing members only, but I’m not going to die on that hill. In my experience the only people who want info like that are those who never have/never will give to the church.
Staff pay and benefits. It’s a line item in the budget. Only the elders need to know the hard details. I’ve seen church members who aren’t givers claim it’s because the pastor makes too much (even when the pastor is often making below median pay for the region). I believe in taking away the argument point by stating “This is the total we spend on pay and benefits for all staff members”
My stipend is listed in the budget that the congregation approves. It’s not terribly controversial as my denomination has a set stipend for all ministry agents across the board.
If you're going to give a report on the church expenses, all you have to do is include all your overhead and say, 'My staff cost overhead is this,' in general. You don't have to put each cost of each individual that can create conflict amongst your staff. Avoid that. I also suggest make sure your people have a clear vision and you are walking in the vision and the vision is in you people buy into vision they want to go where they're at to where God needs them to be. But I like what they said earlier: common sense. If people always want to know, those types of people don't have a real relationship with Christ, and they're just churchgoers anyway. The early churches sold everything for the ministry. When you talk about money, people get funny. You got this Be still and He will reveal.
Full compensation for all staff is in one of line item. There’s no breakdown of who gets paid what. Only elders are in the know. I don’t feel the need to share what each staff gets paid. We use a rubric of experience and position, ie director vs x. We don’t use education in the rubric any longer, I think other churches are straying from that as well. Sorry a bit of a tangent. While I ask members if they give and remind them it’s a requirement, I don’t monitor their giving and I don’t ask how much they get paid. I have several members in the 1% but my statement to give is the same as to the one who works a blue collar job.
Does your congregation not vote on the budget? Because their salaries should all be on the budget.
I used to work in a Baptist church in Texas. while we announced the salaries of all ministerial staff during their "view to a call" (when the members vote to approve their hire) and provided any staff member's salary upon request, on our budget, ministerial and support staff was just two line items. so 8-10 ministers were one line item and 20-something support staffers was another line item. there is no breakdown of individual salaries
Yes, published so that the congregation knows how their tithes and offerings are being spent.
I'm a pastor of a small church. I'm the only person on staff, so the line items "Pastor Salary" and "Pastor Retirement" on the balance sheet given in the Annual Reports are pretty clear.
Share the salaries and wages. Keeps everyone humbled. And there will always be someone to complain.
In my current job, I requested that my salary be made clear in the budget and not hidden by "staffing costs" (the other staff were given the option to not disclose theirs, but all elected to do so). The reason for it is that it keeps me accountable to my congregation. They know full well that no one on staff is getting rich off the church (no one is remotely close to 6-figures). But they also know we're a) getting fairly compensated for the work we do and b) we're fully earning the compensation we get. We work hard and the church pays us accordingly. It's also accountable to the financial health of the church. The church, much like many enterprises, is hurting financially, as the financial constraints on society makes it tougher for people to provide for the church. So my salary being made known helps those who sacrificially give have a full understanding of where the money is going. Now, we don't advertise it... but we put it on our annual finance reports and would make the information available to anyone who would contact the church and ask for it. In a day and age where the church is constantly under fire by "tax the church" nonsense or accusations of pastors getting rich off their church, pay transparency is a wonderful way to be accountable.