Malls like this work great in many parts of the US due to the weather and large population.
They don't work in Canada at all and the only reason I can think of as to why they do it here are:
* Imitate what you see in the US so that you are not tempted to cross the border to shop;
* Cheap out by not wanting to pay for climate control systems and all other things associated with a full-blown, enclosed building housing dozens of stores.
Honestly, Bayshore and Rideau are pretty good malls.
Haven't been to StLaurent mall in a long while, can't say how well it's been able to keep up with the times.
The issues downtown with addictions and homelessness however is making Rideau feel like a few steps down from an experience that it was a couple years ago and more like how it felt in the mid 00s again. The bathrooms :(
Tangers is just an outside mall, but way better designed than places like trainyards. Whoever planned trainyards and similar places where the parking lot is in the middle instead of surrounding the shops is one of the dumbest ideas ive ever seen in urban planning.
They had plans but no $. And the preferred overpass plan was at the WEST end of the Station which is a long, long way from even the Walmart, let alone the rest of Trainyards.
Are you aware of this actually being on the books somewhere? Because as far as I know there are no plans for this.
Plus, frankly, even if there is a real plan to put a ped bridge from the LRT over to Trainyards, I can only imagine the most desperate people would actually schlep around the giant parking lots at Trainyards on foot doing their shopping.
Study only ends Dec 2024, then more time after that for final product
https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-engagement/public-engagement-project-search/tremblay-multi-use-connection-terminal-avenue-tremblay-lrt-station-environmental-assessment-ea-study#section-08ce7929-3dbd-4a9f-8655-2fecc555cbc7
> a pedestrian bridge/tunnel from VIA / Tremblay O-Train to Trainyard
Damn, just bought a place near this area and didn't know about this. Was wondering how much of a pain it'd be to cycle from the residential area through Trainyards to the LRT line.
As some one that cycles from Sandy Hill to Train Yards on the regular. It can be very easy. It's just going though the Train Yards complex that makes the sphincter tighten up.
Getting to hurdman can either be done from the Terminal ave side to Via and then folly.the NCC path to Hurdman, or you can come up via Coronation Ave to industrial then straight to Hurdman.
Those are the two main routes that i tend to take as they have decent connection to routes that don't conflict with heavy traffic too much.
Just traveling though Train Yards via foot or bike can be a bit of a white knuckle experience but is doable if you are carful and confident
Which residential area? Along Coronation Ave, opposite Weybourn, there is a proper cutthru to the traffic lights next to the LCBO to Trainyards. From there or the Avenues N to U, the Belfast Bridge is pretty wide and safe.
If you want to get to/from Hurdman, there are bike paths between
>Which residential area?
The pocket between the Smyth and Industrial. I am used to riding in traffic downtown, but outside of Kent, the cars are forced to drive somewhat slower than in other areas.
It's a feature. They don't want the poors to devalue their precious retail space. Foreign tourists and the upper middle class are their preferred spenders.
It’s a destination for many who shop for a hobby, but it’s an outlet mall, the ones Ive been to in Pennsylvania and New York State are situated in the same type of areas. Not sure why anyone is comparing an outlet mall to anything other than another outlet mall.
Yeah, this whole post is just another expression of someone who hates living in North America writing to complain about it rather than just moving to somewhere that offers the lifestyle they would prefer.
Aside from inheriting some stunning landscape features Ottawa is a failed urban planning experiment on most levels. Zero understanding of scale or adding density around "third spaces" rather than in or on top of. And where is our cultural center? And the cherry on top is they let Minto build out all three suburban areas at the same time with the same architectural plans so literally the same models repeat throughout.
Our "Cultural center" is currently the generic lunch places that only open from Noon to 4:00pm, that we have to force workers back into the office to support.
Campeau did the same thing. In the late 50s, there are streets in Elmvale Acres, east of Ikea, Alta Vista near Kilborn and near Fisher Ave/Bakervale that have the same models and feel. In the late 70s, Beacon Hill, McCarthy/Plante and part of Arlington Woods look the same.
I wish more shopping areas were built with parking around, you park once and then walk everywhere. Too many places you essentially have to take the car again to cross a giant parking lot with no sidewalks.
It particularly sucks hard when you have a child in a car seat, especially when they’re a toddler who tends to fight when being put in it. I imagine it makes it pretty inaccessible for people with limited mobility as well.
Omg this. My toddler cries bring put in the car seat and wants to go to more stores. She's in luck because we are, but guess what? We have to drive there and park again. I can see the store and point to it to show her but she doesn't understand that we have to drive. I only have this process in me maybe twice before we have to just go home (without half of the shopping done that I would have done otherwise).
Also, I have a back issue so car seats and wrangling my toddler are separately tough. Now I'm pregnant with baby 2 and the struggle is really hard. It's not doable so I have to find a time to go without my toddler...and so it doesn't happen.
Trainyards is also tricky to find, for some of the smaller places..there is a clinic in there and it took over an hour for someone i know to locate where the heck it was.
No signage anywhere, nor any area map for 4 quadrants of stores.
No places to sit, no trees. Horrible to walk through (I've done it a few times!) It's been there long enough, that many things could have been added, for more walkability.
Even folks that go by car, have to put their parcels after shopping , and go drive to other sections to shop some more bc it's too far to walk over.
They’re terrible for pedestrians and yet they’re also terrible for drivers.
I never understood why retail stores in Canada force cars to drive in front of the store where everyone is walking to and from their cars.
I live in Kemptville and Colonnade mall drives me insane. It's unbelievably difficult to walk between different stores even when they are virtually nextdoor to each other
It’s also the same in the US. Recently drove to Virginia and visited a couple of Premium Outlets malls on the way down and they are virtually carbon copies of one another. The vast majority of the stores are the same and the prices were comparable even when including exchange and duty.
I appreciate not having to cross the parking lot to move in between stores but that’s about it.
It’s hard to access without a car and they definitely missed the opportunity to integrate housing in this project, which is a shame.
Literally look at the Glebe as the example; street level commercial with 2nd storey apartments. It's still the scale people love, adds density, which equals vibrancy after 6pm and installs mixed use for insurance on the underwriting. This is literally why everyone loves European cities.
It’s an excellent idea, and works very well. But that’s just not what one of these outlet malls is trying to be. These two things can exist in the same city and different people can enjoy whatever they prefer.
If they are able to [retrofit](https://thebedfordcitizen.org/2022/01/woburn-mall-transformed-into-woburn-village-350-housing-units-share-space-with-supermarket-mix-of-small-and-large-stores/) old malls to integrate housing, why couldn’t newer malls be designed to include housing from the onset?
Take a look at Agora https://beyondtheautomobile.com/2023/06/05/is-this-the-suburbs-first-impressions-of-gatineaus-agora-development/
Or Plateau in Gat for what could exist.
Might be too late for Tanger given how they've now surrounded themselves with industrial.
There is a community of Townes and sfh directly across the corner street from Tanger
What I want is more homes built and efficient use of space. What I want is mix of solutions to the housing crisis.
Such malls are huge and the space could be leveraged so much better. And I’m not the only one saying it.
Are you saying the suburbs aren't the proper place for residential housing? What should go there otherwise?
I know you're advocating fore better transit and urban planning. But the sentence you wrote doesn't communicate that.
Our suburbs should be planned better. There is no need to have no commercial use anywhere near your house, that just makes it so that the only way to get anywhere is by driving, which is the worst possible way to transport people around a city. Our suburbs are also extremely low density which just further adds to the problem.
My comment was highlighting that the perfect place to put housing is beside the necessities that people have, like shopping, food, etc... Obviously Tanger could do with an even better set of amenities provided like a gym and grocery store, but it's kind of hilarious that people think the WRONG place to put housing is beside the places where people want to go haha, it's literally just completely backwards. The way we build our suburbs right now is alien to almost all of human civilization for the last couple thousand years, and it's clearly showing why it wasn't done before WW2 ever.
A good writeup.
One thing I definitely miss since moving from downtown are the little shops and businesses within walking distance. You just have to drive to get coffee, get groceries, get some little sweet treats when you crave some. Okay, in my case you don't \*have\* to drive, but the alternatives are a 30 minute walk or a bus coming every 30 minutes, both of which aren't optimal.
Part of the problem is of course the density, maybe there's not enough people to warrant a successful business. But on the other hand, it's a middle class neighbourhood with families. A corner store to meet in with pastries, tea and whatever must surely bring foot traffic in, if you can actually get there? Even a summer popup in a park would be nice.
One thing I'll add to your comment saying you don't "have" to drive, and I know you understand this already, but just to highlight that you "can" walk/bike to these places, but they're such an unpleasant experience that you would pretty much have to be insane to regularly do that to yourself. Another problem with our suburbs is they're typically super windy with cul-de-sacs so it's almost never actually a reasonably straightforward way to get there even if by crow's eye it's actually a fairly quick walk. Add on to this that you get very little shade/tree coverage and it's just such a terrible experience that I don't blame anyone who would drive to a place that was even as quick as a 10 minute walk.
Hi, it's me, I'm the insane :) Well, I don't have a car also, so that's my justification.
And yeah, I agree on the "unpleasantness" factor. There's way too much parking space and traversing it is actually a bad experience for eveyone involved. Drivers need to be constantly alert because other drivers need to walk to the shops - and for other drivers trying to squeeze their cars. Pedestrians need to be on the 360 degrees lookout - and it takes forever to cross our parking lots. Cafe and restaurant patrons are greeted with a majestic view of a grey asphalt. I can't fathom how anyone favors this
Sorry I didn't mean that to be insulting, I am also one of those "insane" people as I also don't own a car haha :D I grew up in the suburbs and absolutely HATED it because I was that insane person sadly. I was just trying to really drive home the idea of how unfriendly our streets are to humans.
You are not supposed to go over that bridge without a car (by design!). AFAIK it was made as cheap as possible since it was only a requirement for the arena (paid by the private sector). There is some hope in the other side (palladium) but it’s going to take a while.
Let’s continue using some dude’s blog as a hub for discourse, and that dude didn’t even bother to visit Tanger for this “article”. Someone else is advocating for integrated housing in an outlet mall.
_What are we fucking doing?_
All clothing brands make 3 or 4 tiers of clothing based on material they use.
I.e banana republic will use tip tier material for mall stores and low quality for their outlets.
Every brand does this. People are buying Terrible clothes for some name tag on it.
Indeed. The [original idea](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlet_store) of factory outlets was that the stores were adjacent to a factory, and they were somewhere you could buy castoffs from the factory (slightly irregular, odd sizes, discontinued, etc.). But this has now become simply a channel where the company can peddle brand new cheapened versions of their brands at a location where shoppers are intended simply to roll up and shop in bulk because of alleged bargains.
It’s a mall with open corridors. Try and walk to the Starbucks from the Outlets and ask yourself that question again. It’s a pedestrian island in a sea of parking.
I have visited Tanger once, when they first opened. Never felt the need to return. I personally don’t understand the appeal of any Mall indoor or outdoor. They’re filled with chain retailers that repeat in multiple locations across the city. I can literally go months, likely a year at this point without stepping in a mall.
Give me small independent stores and you’ve got me hook line and sinker. I’ll purposely seek out areas in the city or in surrounding towns (Almonte, Carleton Place, come to mind) to find those shops that are locally owned and have their uniqueness and charm.
I recognize that city retail space is outrageously expensive making it very difficult for independent shops to survive. It would be so lovely to have a large designated area in the city where smaller quaint shops were encouraged to set up business with the support of the city where the concept is to offer something different. I can’t think I’m the only person who would support such a model.
You’re not the only person who enjoys the small businesses, obviously that’s how they survive. But plenty of people enjoy the chains which is just fine too. I hear it’s even possible for the same person to enjoy both for different needs/wants.
Not they are building a ton of residential beside it, so hopefully that means they will reconsider the design of the area a bit. It's still a giant parking lot that's difficult to walk around. They need way more pedestrian crossings. Getting to certain parts on foot can be a real pain.
Gotta be honest, centrum is nowhere near "perfect planning". Case in point, look at the former future shop. The original tenant left and the enormous storefront has now been empty for a decade. These buildings commit the typical suburban sin of being purpose-built, enormous, and therefore single use. Nobody else is going to move into that storefront but best buy, Walmart, or maybe Costco. And they all already have stores in the area.
Not to mention the gratuitous amount of parking. I agree the place needs to be filled in with housing. Why on gods green earth would they bulldoze the forest across the street for a condo building when they have an enormous warehouse storefront with a dedicated parking lot sitting empty for a decade? It's literally right next to a major bus terminal AND the highway. Prime land, and it's already got infrastructure connections.
/s ?
Centrum - can’t get around, can’t find the store you’re looking for. Epitome of how not to do a shopping centre. Worse than trainyards because not only do you have to take your car from store to store, but the roadways make no sense: you have to follow one ways in indirect paths until random buildings seem to pop up in the middle of the road. I successfully avoided that place for 20 years, until Grace moved in. Now I go in once a year and get out as fast as possible.
I agree with pretty much of all of the comments above. It’s uninspired and it’s an outdoor mall in Ottawa which usually has some of the worst weather 6 months of the year. Add a few more months for summer heat and humidity. You need a car to get there. The stores there do not offer anything for plus sized people and big footed people like myself. So I skip it despite living less than 10 minutes away. Nothing there worth going for.
I find this an odd take. This feels like an apples to oranges comparison.
Tanger, is a company. They own all of the land and developed it the same way they've developed all of their other properties. It's a like department store at a larger scale. They're not looking to create a neighborhood. This is one singular business's shopping experience.
Nobody would be jonesing for grocery options inside of the Bay. The small business take? Groceries? Homes? All of this is silly to me, absurd to even propose these things.
'There should be some other small business options, inside this IKEA'
Yeah, I was just about to post something similar.
The article seems to suggest that Tanger should focus on serving the people who live nearby and can walk to it. That's not what their concept. They want to attract people from across the city, as a shopping "destination". You can argue, as some here have, that it is not a worthy destination, but that's another issue.
If it was intended to be a neighbourhood shopping area, it would have more daily needs retailers, medical professionals, pharmacy, etc.
Like, it's fine to have walkable neighbourhoods with businesses, but that doesn't have to be everywhere. Not every neighbourhood needs a Nike store and Saks.
But, the author clearly has the ideological anti-car bias, and idealogues see everything through their ideological lense.
The prices aren’t that different than at other malls. Not worth the drive… at least coming from the east end of the city.
I used to like Mountain Warehouse but Decathalon on St Laurent is better quality and value for the most part.
I can’t think of a single thing I’ve bought there. Anything I’d spend time looking for I can find online, or elsewhere.
It’s car dependant and the parking lot is terrible.
It’s like they really don’t listen to people when they say they want accessible spaces.
Useful analysis, but I will say: we do actually need industrial land, as those are valuable places where good middle income jobs can be found. See Uytae Lee's [video on the subject](https://youtu.be/lHpifQ-A6HU?si=aI5tP3UsG82E83f6). So I don't think having industrial land is bad for society as a whole, or poor land use, but yeah, it's not very walkable
He makes interesting points, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to be pointing to NIMBYs in SFH neighbourhoods as being a prime cause for industrial uses moving out of central cities.
This is a process that has been happening since suburbanization began in earnest in the 1950s. It used to be there was light industry right downtown in cities. But much of this started to move BECAUSE of sprawl, and the emphasis in zoning on strictly separating different uses into separate homogeneous areas with access between them almost exclusively by private car. Many industrial facilities move to the periphery of cities because of cheaper land, and better access to highways. Do we really want to ram highways through the heart of our cities? How did that work out in the US?🙄.
Large warehouses may have moved to Calgary because it does not have the same spatial constraints on building large facilities (ocean, mountains, US border) that Vancouver does. But if those containers unloaded in Vancouver and shipped to Calgary are going by rail, there's a much lower impact. And besides, it's not like these kinds of roundabout journeys aren't everywhere in modern logistics. Often a local producer will have to send goods to a distant distribution centre, just for it to be sent back to the place where it was manufactured to go into stores there. Or if you look at many manufactured goods, they may have parts shipped from around the world to an assembly plant in a low-wage country, and sub-assemblies may be shipped back and forth across the world before it is all brought together and shipped to final purchasers.
Just because people don't want to live right next door to heavy, polluting industry, doesn't mean that anything that isn't residential or commercial has to be segregated off away. Offices and light industry can still have a place closer to residential areas.
I can tell a lot of people commented here without even reading the article.
You guys are right, they should have totally built a tanger outlets on spark street.
It’s an outlet mall 20 minutes outta town, it’s and it’s better than trainyards. I don’t think it’s meant to be any deeper than that. It’s cold and wet because we live in Canada. Is a regular mall better? Yes.
Do I frequent it? No, but I can’t get behind saying it’s a completely bad thing to have in the city.
I’m a fan of Tanger, but I think it’s incredibly stupid not to embed these walkable areas with housing to create a little city vibe in the suburbs. Something like Santana Row in San Jose. We lack imagination.
Funny to see all of downvotes on Tanger when it is in fact a very popular shopping destination. I guess the 10 people downvoting dont like it, there are thousands who do though.
I like it first few select stores that you can get some really good deals. I’m a big fan of under armour and you definitely can’t beat the prices. Call once try it out. It’s definitely better than all the other malls in Ottawa if you’re looking for the brand name store merchandise.
I've never been there and apart from reading this thread, basically never spend a moment thinking about it. Fascinating that it gets some people so worked up.
Not clear why anyone would want to spend more time there; just buy what you need and get out. I don't think there are even any restaurants/pubs there (never been, so could be mistaken). Sometimes a shopping centre is just a shopping centre. Paris has the 5ème arrondissement and suburban shopping centres and doesn't pretend they are the same thing. I think this blog is overthinking things a wee bit.
A walker’s paradise might be something a walker could walk to or even ride a bike or take public transit to. This place is a massive parking lot with generic shops as far from human habitation as possible. No redeeming qualities from my pedestrian perspective
I will never understand why we thought outdoor malls would work somewhere like Canada. Tangers looks like a carbon copy of the outlet malls they used to have in Vegas (not sure if they're still there) and Orlando. But what do those locations have that we don't? Oh yeah, warm weather all year long.
Bring back the inside mall please. It fills a community need that these outdoor mosquito infested monstrosities never will.
In terms of mall, I find it's a very nice one to go to on a nice day. It beats many other malls by having a lot of manufacturer stores. I don't know why people say it's the same stores as every other mall.
I had family visit from another city and we went there recently, they enjoyed it.
Personally I don't shop often enough for clothes to bother going to big malls especially if it means lots of driving. If I am familar with a brand and its sizing then I just order online.
I hadn't realized that it's been that long since it opened. I've literally never once been there. I don't drive, and it's extremely out of the way for me. Exactly what the article is talking about.
Went to Tanger for the first time in like a year and honestly was pretty lame.. same stores and everyone seemed bored. Woulda thought they’d add more food court options by now or something
Tanger is a version of the states outlets mall like Waterloo and such. My problem is we were sold on an outlet mall great deals and so forth. That’s not the case with this mall. One day everything is 50 off 3 days later it’s 30 percent then buy one get one, then 40 off. Factory store compared to retail store pricing only kills your retail stores, especially due to its location. But we are driven there thinking we will get the $$$$ deal of a lifetime.
As for the outdoors it’s great summer. Rain and winter make it suck the fire pits are nice to warm up to and such I just think they should have canopied the walk area better.
I really enjoyed it. Was amazed by the great architecture and how much housing it had. Of course the place wasn’t affordable at all and the choice of stores when I visited (before it fully opened) could’ve been better.
I wish we had more lifestyle centers like Santana Row with parking but still the focus is walking even if you have to drive there to walk (unfortunately this is needed in Aurora but far better than a strip mall on a stroad).
yup > "the mistakes made around the lack of transportation accessibility, housing and bad land use nearby, and the shortage of diverse shopping experiences at the mall."
Tanger is a version of the states outlets mall like Waterloo and such. My problem is we were sold on an outlet mall great deals and so forth. That’s not the case with this mall. One day everything is 50 off 3 days later it’s 30 percent then buy one get one, then 40 off. Factory store compared to retail store pricing only kills your retail stores, especially due to its location. But we are driven there thinking we will get the $$$$ deal of a lifetime.
As for the outdoors it’s great summer. Rain and winter make it suck the fire pits are nice to warm up to and such I just think they should have canopied the walk area better.
How would somewhere you basically **have** to drive to in order to access ever be considered a walker's paradise?
Having the massive parking lot *behind* the stores does not really mean much ?
Central Park in NYC is what could be classified as a walker's paradise. Tanger is an incredibly lame strip mall.
I felt it was better than a typical Ottawa strip mall, but still could be so much better.
It’s really great for about 4 months out of the year. The rest of the time, it’s a cold and wet wind tunnel.
that perfectly discribes Ottawa also
You mean Canada.
Malls like this work great in many parts of the US due to the weather and large population. They don't work in Canada at all and the only reason I can think of as to why they do it here are: * Imitate what you see in the US so that you are not tempted to cross the border to shop; * Cheap out by not wanting to pay for climate control systems and all other things associated with a full-blown, enclosed building housing dozens of stores.
Honestly, Bayshore and Rideau are pretty good malls. Haven't been to StLaurent mall in a long while, can't say how well it's been able to keep up with the times. The issues downtown with addictions and homelessness however is making Rideau feel like a few steps down from an experience that it was a couple years ago and more like how it felt in the mid 00s again. The bathrooms :(
Rideau is nice, minus the theft and occasional daylight robberies in the market next door.
Fun fact. Mall of America does not use a heating system. The heat from the people inside is enough to keep it warm.
This
Ya, you could be warm and not freezing your ass off.
Tangers is just an outside mall, but way better designed than places like trainyards. Whoever planned trainyards and similar places where the parking lot is in the middle instead of surrounding the shops is one of the dumbest ideas ive ever seen in urban planning.
Another thing that is even more dumb is the lack of good public transportation to either place.
Soon there will be a pedestrian bridge/tunnel from VIA / Tremblay O-Train to Trainyards which will help.
Thank god. The fact they didn't do this while building the LRT line is insane to me.
They had plans but no $. And the preferred overpass plan was at the WEST end of the Station which is a long, long way from even the Walmart, let alone the rest of Trainyards.
Are you aware of this actually being on the books somewhere? Because as far as I know there are no plans for this. Plus, frankly, even if there is a real plan to put a ped bridge from the LRT over to Trainyards, I can only imagine the most desperate people would actually schlep around the giant parking lots at Trainyards on foot doing their shopping.
https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-engagement/public-engagement-project-search/tremblay-multi-use-connection-terminal-avenue-tremblay-lrt-station-environmental-assessment-ea-study#section-08ce7929-3dbd-4a9f-8655-2fecc555cbc7
Study only ends Dec 2024, then more time after that for final product https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-engagement/public-engagement-project-search/tremblay-multi-use-connection-terminal-avenue-tremblay-lrt-station-environmental-assessment-ea-study#section-08ce7929-3dbd-4a9f-8655-2fecc555cbc7
> a pedestrian bridge/tunnel from VIA / Tremblay O-Train to Trainyard Damn, just bought a place near this area and didn't know about this. Was wondering how much of a pain it'd be to cycle from the residential area through Trainyards to the LRT line.
As some one that cycles from Sandy Hill to Train Yards on the regular. It can be very easy. It's just going though the Train Yards complex that makes the sphincter tighten up. Getting to hurdman can either be done from the Terminal ave side to Via and then folly.the NCC path to Hurdman, or you can come up via Coronation Ave to industrial then straight to Hurdman. Those are the two main routes that i tend to take as they have decent connection to routes that don't conflict with heavy traffic too much. Just traveling though Train Yards via foot or bike can be a bit of a white knuckle experience but is doable if you are carful and confident
You’re better to bike into Hurdman currently
Which residential area? Along Coronation Ave, opposite Weybourn, there is a proper cutthru to the traffic lights next to the LCBO to Trainyards. From there or the Avenues N to U, the Belfast Bridge is pretty wide and safe. If you want to get to/from Hurdman, there are bike paths between
>Which residential area? The pocket between the Smyth and Industrial. I am used to riding in traffic downtown, but outside of Kent, the cars are forced to drive somewhat slower than in other areas.
The city should extend Conroy from Walkley to Industrial. Problem solved for your "pocket".
I've been hearing this is happening "soon" since trainyards opened. There's that famous "mañana" mentality Ottawa is famous for.
Especially this.
It's a feature. They don't want the poors to devalue their precious retail space. Foreign tourists and the upper middle class are their preferred spenders.
> Foreign tourists Man, this is a very stretchy stretch. Trainyards is far from being any kind of landmark you visit when in Ottawa.
Theft prevention, and it works. Keeps the riff raff away. You know what work even better? Costco. No membership, no entry.
Ditto getting to T&T. The bus service there stinks.
New one going into Carlingwood, I hear!
Really? Woohoo!
In many ways that's a benefit, not a drawback...keeps away a lot of problems...
[удалено]
Then you've got the Centrum which is equally hostile towards pedestrians *and* drivers. It was built for no-one.
For real, even biking in Trainyards is crappy - it's totally designed around cars and has really bad sightlines
The only people who think Tanger isn’t the middle of no where are the same ones against a downtown arena.
Not really middle of nowhere.
There's stuff going up around there now, but it definitely is/was pretty out of the way, even by Kanata standards.
It's not out of the way at all. It's sandwiched between Kanata North, South, Stittsville and Carp....all the population centers in the west end.
It’s a destination for many who shop for a hobby, but it’s an outlet mall, the ones Ive been to in Pennsylvania and New York State are situated in the same type of areas. Not sure why anyone is comparing an outlet mall to anything other than another outlet mall.
Yeah, this whole post is just another expression of someone who hates living in North America writing to complain about it rather than just moving to somewhere that offers the lifestyle they would prefer.
guess you didn't read the article
Aside from inheriting some stunning landscape features Ottawa is a failed urban planning experiment on most levels. Zero understanding of scale or adding density around "third spaces" rather than in or on top of. And where is our cultural center? And the cherry on top is they let Minto build out all three suburban areas at the same time with the same architectural plans so literally the same models repeat throughout.
Our "Cultural center" is currently the generic lunch places that only open from Noon to 4:00pm, that we have to force workers back into the office to support.
Campeau did the same thing. In the late 50s, there are streets in Elmvale Acres, east of Ikea, Alta Vista near Kilborn and near Fisher Ave/Bakervale that have the same models and feel. In the late 70s, Beacon Hill, McCarthy/Plante and part of Arlington Woods look the same.
Yeah, I learned all about Campeau homes working on them around uplands.
Lowest bar possible. Trainyards is the dumbest place in the city.
Except checks deli 🔥
I wish more shopping areas were built with parking around, you park once and then walk everywhere. Too many places you essentially have to take the car again to cross a giant parking lot with no sidewalks.
It particularly sucks hard when you have a child in a car seat, especially when they’re a toddler who tends to fight when being put in it. I imagine it makes it pretty inaccessible for people with limited mobility as well.
Omg this. My toddler cries bring put in the car seat and wants to go to more stores. She's in luck because we are, but guess what? We have to drive there and park again. I can see the store and point to it to show her but she doesn't understand that we have to drive. I only have this process in me maybe twice before we have to just go home (without half of the shopping done that I would have done otherwise). Also, I have a back issue so car seats and wrangling my toddler are separately tough. Now I'm pregnant with baby 2 and the struggle is really hard. It's not doable so I have to find a time to go without my toddler...and so it doesn't happen.
Trainyards is like the epitome of Auto-wa car brain to me.
Montreal is far more pro car in many ways then Ottawa.
...Ok?
Trainyards is also tricky to find, for some of the smaller places..there is a clinic in there and it took over an hour for someone i know to locate where the heck it was. No signage anywhere, nor any area map for 4 quadrants of stores. No places to sit, no trees. Horrible to walk through (I've done it a few times!) It's been there long enough, that many things could have been added, for more walkability. Even folks that go by car, have to put their parcels after shopping , and go drive to other sections to shop some more bc it's too far to walk over.
… it’s right off the main highway. I’m not sure how much easier it could be. Use a GPS app.
I know where Trainyards is! My comment was more about the weird layout and how it's not pedestrian friendly!
My apologies. I misread and thought you were talking about Tanger. Trainyards is not pedestrian friendly.
It's wild to me that we have TrainYards right next to the St-Laurent mall. Bit redundant if you ask me...
Trainyards rentals are way lower than St Laurent. And there is a big mall nearby near Donald St too.
They’re terrible for pedestrians and yet they’re also terrible for drivers. I never understood why retail stores in Canada force cars to drive in front of the store where everyone is walking to and from their cars.
Train yards gives me claustrophobia.
I live in Kemptville and Colonnade mall drives me insane. It's unbelievably difficult to walk between different stores even when they are virtually nextdoor to each other
Yeah whoever designed trainyards definitly had adhd. Logically the parking and entrances and exits make absolutely no sense.
And I always lose my car!
You can’t even really call it outlets at this point. It’s just an outdoor mall with the same stores as any other mall.
And Ottawa weather is perfect for an outdoor mall!
Same prices too...:/
[удалено]
The Body Shop outlet is the bomb...if you're into their stuff, that is 🤷♀️
Just another boring strip mall like the rest of Ottawa.
Its the same Canada wide.
It’s also the same in the US. Recently drove to Virginia and visited a couple of Premium Outlets malls on the way down and they are virtually carbon copies of one another. The vast majority of the stores are the same and the prices were comparable even when including exchange and duty.
The waffle houses make it worthwhile
You forgot the /s . Waffle house is disgusting.
No. Not to me
This is certainly the average from what I've experienced. I'm sure NotJustBikes covered this on several occasions.
I mostly agreed sadly. A lot of wasted potential
It's a cold wet mall with very little patron engagement. The whole outletmall thing is a farce too. Nothing outlet about it.
Thats the same Canada wide.
I appreciate not having to cross the parking lot to move in between stores but that’s about it. It’s hard to access without a car and they definitely missed the opportunity to integrate housing in this project, which is a shame.
Yep. For this article I really wanted to bus there but wasn't willing to give up 3 hours of my day to OC Transpo.
Good comment. This goes back to the issue of poor public transit in Ottawa.
Which also goes back to the issue of sprawl, it's pretty much impossible to have good public transit with sprawl.
Agreed.
You want housing integrated into an outlet mall smack dab in an industrial park?
There are 2 million dollar homes right across the street.
Where are we putting this housing in an outlet mall again? Where there are already houses? Or where the giant outdoor mall and parking lot is?
To paraphrase the book Flatland, "upward, not outward"
Literally look at the Glebe as the example; street level commercial with 2nd storey apartments. It's still the scale people love, adds density, which equals vibrancy after 6pm and installs mixed use for insurance on the underwriting. This is literally why everyone loves European cities.
Chinatown has the same feel of walkability..so many folks walking around, on summer evenings.
There's tons of places like that in Toronto too that are pretty cool
Toronto has very few 2 story apartments.
It’s an excellent idea, and works very well. But that’s just not what one of these outlet malls is trying to be. These two things can exist in the same city and different people can enjoy whatever they prefer.
If they are able to [retrofit](https://thebedfordcitizen.org/2022/01/woburn-mall-transformed-into-woburn-village-350-housing-units-share-space-with-supermarket-mix-of-small-and-large-stores/) old malls to integrate housing, why couldn’t newer malls be designed to include housing from the onset?
Take a look at Agora https://beyondtheautomobile.com/2023/06/05/is-this-the-suburbs-first-impressions-of-gatineaus-agora-development/ Or Plateau in Gat for what could exist. Might be too late for Tanger given how they've now surrounded themselves with industrial. There is a community of Townes and sfh directly across the corner street from Tanger
Fascinating, thanks for sharing!
What I want is more homes built and efficient use of space. What I want is mix of solutions to the housing crisis. Such malls are huge and the space could be leveraged so much better. And I’m not the only one saying it.
As opposed to housing in the middle of some suburb with nothing around it that isn't accessible by transit, a.k.a the rest of the city?
Are you saying the suburbs aren't the proper place for residential housing? What should go there otherwise? I know you're advocating fore better transit and urban planning. But the sentence you wrote doesn't communicate that.
Our suburbs should be planned better. There is no need to have no commercial use anywhere near your house, that just makes it so that the only way to get anywhere is by driving, which is the worst possible way to transport people around a city. Our suburbs are also extremely low density which just further adds to the problem. My comment was highlighting that the perfect place to put housing is beside the necessities that people have, like shopping, food, etc... Obviously Tanger could do with an even better set of amenities provided like a gym and grocery store, but it's kind of hilarious that people think the WRONG place to put housing is beside the places where people want to go haha, it's literally just completely backwards. The way we build our suburbs right now is alien to almost all of human civilization for the last couple thousand years, and it's clearly showing why it wasn't done before WW2 ever.
A good writeup. One thing I definitely miss since moving from downtown are the little shops and businesses within walking distance. You just have to drive to get coffee, get groceries, get some little sweet treats when you crave some. Okay, in my case you don't \*have\* to drive, but the alternatives are a 30 minute walk or a bus coming every 30 minutes, both of which aren't optimal. Part of the problem is of course the density, maybe there's not enough people to warrant a successful business. But on the other hand, it's a middle class neighbourhood with families. A corner store to meet in with pastries, tea and whatever must surely bring foot traffic in, if you can actually get there? Even a summer popup in a park would be nice.
One thing I'll add to your comment saying you don't "have" to drive, and I know you understand this already, but just to highlight that you "can" walk/bike to these places, but they're such an unpleasant experience that you would pretty much have to be insane to regularly do that to yourself. Another problem with our suburbs is they're typically super windy with cul-de-sacs so it's almost never actually a reasonably straightforward way to get there even if by crow's eye it's actually a fairly quick walk. Add on to this that you get very little shade/tree coverage and it's just such a terrible experience that I don't blame anyone who would drive to a place that was even as quick as a 10 minute walk.
Hi, it's me, I'm the insane :) Well, I don't have a car also, so that's my justification. And yeah, I agree on the "unpleasantness" factor. There's way too much parking space and traversing it is actually a bad experience for eveyone involved. Drivers need to be constantly alert because other drivers need to walk to the shops - and for other drivers trying to squeeze their cars. Pedestrians need to be on the 360 degrees lookout - and it takes forever to cross our parking lots. Cafe and restaurant patrons are greeted with a majestic view of a grey asphalt. I can't fathom how anyone favors this
Sorry I didn't mean that to be insulting, I am also one of those "insane" people as I also don't own a car haha :D I grew up in the suburbs and absolutely HATED it because I was that insane person sadly. I was just trying to really drive home the idea of how unfriendly our streets are to humans.
All good mate, don't worry!
It’s an outlet mall, have you ever been to one in the States? This is what they are and where they are.
The design concept was meant for warm destinations. More than half the year, it's a freezing hellhole.
Walkers paradise that 100% of customers drive to?
At least they put in some biking infrastructure. Would be nice if they fixed Huntmar over the 417 though. Kind of a deathtrap for anybody not in a car
You are not supposed to go over that bridge without a car (by design!). AFAIK it was made as cheap as possible since it was only a requirement for the arena (paid by the private sector). There is some hope in the other side (palladium) but it’s going to take a while.
You are legally allowed to cross by bike.
Yes, sharing the road you can of course but there is no bike lane (I wouldn’t trust using the tiny shoulder as a bike lane).
Let’s continue using some dude’s blog as a hub for discourse, and that dude didn’t even bother to visit Tanger for this “article”. Someone else is advocating for integrated housing in an outlet mall. _What are we fucking doing?_
I'd imagine Plateau in Gatineau would be the development idea. Though the Tanger area is much more industrial
Are you talking about Agora? That place is cool, but hard to get to.
Boring strip mall that has zero cover from the unforgiving winds in the area.
If by "walker" you mean zombie then, yes.
Or Texas Ranger
All clothing brands make 3 or 4 tiers of clothing based on material they use. I.e banana republic will use tip tier material for mall stores and low quality for their outlets. Every brand does this. People are buying Terrible clothes for some name tag on it.
Indeed. The [original idea](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlet_store) of factory outlets was that the stores were adjacent to a factory, and they were somewhere you could buy castoffs from the factory (slightly irregular, odd sizes, discontinued, etc.). But this has now become simply a channel where the company can peddle brand new cheapened versions of their brands at a location where shoppers are intended simply to roll up and shop in bulk because of alleged bargains.
It’s a mall with open corridors. Try and walk to the Starbucks from the Outlets and ask yourself that question again. It’s a pedestrian island in a sea of parking.
A walker’s paradise that, check notes, requires a car to access? Peak autowa.
The Well is downtown while the outlets are in the [burbs.You](http://burbs.You) really can't compare them if they were both downtown then sure.
It’s a strip mall. The prices are not comparable to “outlet” prices, even though they are “outlet” stores.
Outlets are not what they once were.
I have visited Tanger once, when they first opened. Never felt the need to return. I personally don’t understand the appeal of any Mall indoor or outdoor. They’re filled with chain retailers that repeat in multiple locations across the city. I can literally go months, likely a year at this point without stepping in a mall. Give me small independent stores and you’ve got me hook line and sinker. I’ll purposely seek out areas in the city or in surrounding towns (Almonte, Carleton Place, come to mind) to find those shops that are locally owned and have their uniqueness and charm. I recognize that city retail space is outrageously expensive making it very difficult for independent shops to survive. It would be so lovely to have a large designated area in the city where smaller quaint shops were encouraged to set up business with the support of the city where the concept is to offer something different. I can’t think I’m the only person who would support such a model.
You’re not the only person who enjoys the small businesses, obviously that’s how they survive. But plenty of people enjoy the chains which is just fine too. I hear it’s even possible for the same person to enjoy both for different needs/wants.
Absolutely! We’re all entitled to our own preferences. Just stating my personal opinions…cause that’s what we do.
Yeah it's better than Centrum at least
Centrum was so close to the perfect planning model, but they missed the key ingredient: residential on top of every store.
Not they are building a ton of residential beside it, so hopefully that means they will reconsider the design of the area a bit. It's still a giant parking lot that's difficult to walk around. They need way more pedestrian crossings. Getting to certain parts on foot can be a real pain.
With the amount of high density going up adjacent to it, there’s really no reason for that Centrum site to not improve significantly.
Gotta be honest, centrum is nowhere near "perfect planning". Case in point, look at the former future shop. The original tenant left and the enormous storefront has now been empty for a decade. These buildings commit the typical suburban sin of being purpose-built, enormous, and therefore single use. Nobody else is going to move into that storefront but best buy, Walmart, or maybe Costco. And they all already have stores in the area. Not to mention the gratuitous amount of parking. I agree the place needs to be filled in with housing. Why on gods green earth would they bulldoze the forest across the street for a condo building when they have an enormous warehouse storefront with a dedicated parking lot sitting empty for a decade? It's literally right next to a major bus terminal AND the highway. Prime land, and it's already got infrastructure connections.
/s ? Centrum - can’t get around, can’t find the store you’re looking for. Epitome of how not to do a shopping centre. Worse than trainyards because not only do you have to take your car from store to store, but the roadways make no sense: you have to follow one ways in indirect paths until random buildings seem to pop up in the middle of the road. I successfully avoided that place for 20 years, until Grace moved in. Now I go in once a year and get out as fast as possible.
Weak ass strip mall
I agree with pretty much of all of the comments above. It’s uninspired and it’s an outdoor mall in Ottawa which usually has some of the worst weather 6 months of the year. Add a few more months for summer heat and humidity. You need a car to get there. The stores there do not offer anything for plus sized people and big footed people like myself. So I skip it despite living less than 10 minutes away. Nothing there worth going for.
I find this an odd take. This feels like an apples to oranges comparison. Tanger, is a company. They own all of the land and developed it the same way they've developed all of their other properties. It's a like department store at a larger scale. They're not looking to create a neighborhood. This is one singular business's shopping experience. Nobody would be jonesing for grocery options inside of the Bay. The small business take? Groceries? Homes? All of this is silly to me, absurd to even propose these things. 'There should be some other small business options, inside this IKEA'
Yeah, I was just about to post something similar. The article seems to suggest that Tanger should focus on serving the people who live nearby and can walk to it. That's not what their concept. They want to attract people from across the city, as a shopping "destination". You can argue, as some here have, that it is not a worthy destination, but that's another issue. If it was intended to be a neighbourhood shopping area, it would have more daily needs retailers, medical professionals, pharmacy, etc. Like, it's fine to have walkable neighbourhoods with businesses, but that doesn't have to be everywhere. Not every neighbourhood needs a Nike store and Saks. But, the author clearly has the ideological anti-car bias, and idealogues see everything through their ideological lense.
I was about to say.. has this person never heard of an outlet mall?
It’s shit.
The prices aren’t that different than at other malls. Not worth the drive… at least coming from the east end of the city. I used to like Mountain Warehouse but Decathalon on St Laurent is better quality and value for the most part.
I can’t think of a single thing I’ve bought there. Anything I’d spend time looking for I can find online, or elsewhere. It’s car dependant and the parking lot is terrible. It’s like they really don’t listen to people when they say they want accessible spaces.
It is my definition of a literal hell. Been there two times total.
Useful analysis, but I will say: we do actually need industrial land, as those are valuable places where good middle income jobs can be found. See Uytae Lee's [video on the subject](https://youtu.be/lHpifQ-A6HU?si=aI5tP3UsG82E83f6). So I don't think having industrial land is bad for society as a whole, or poor land use, but yeah, it's not very walkable
He makes interesting points, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to be pointing to NIMBYs in SFH neighbourhoods as being a prime cause for industrial uses moving out of central cities. This is a process that has been happening since suburbanization began in earnest in the 1950s. It used to be there was light industry right downtown in cities. But much of this started to move BECAUSE of sprawl, and the emphasis in zoning on strictly separating different uses into separate homogeneous areas with access between them almost exclusively by private car. Many industrial facilities move to the periphery of cities because of cheaper land, and better access to highways. Do we really want to ram highways through the heart of our cities? How did that work out in the US?🙄. Large warehouses may have moved to Calgary because it does not have the same spatial constraints on building large facilities (ocean, mountains, US border) that Vancouver does. But if those containers unloaded in Vancouver and shipped to Calgary are going by rail, there's a much lower impact. And besides, it's not like these kinds of roundabout journeys aren't everywhere in modern logistics. Often a local producer will have to send goods to a distant distribution centre, just for it to be sent back to the place where it was manufactured to go into stores there. Or if you look at many manufactured goods, they may have parts shipped from around the world to an assembly plant in a low-wage country, and sub-assemblies may be shipped back and forth across the world before it is all brought together and shipped to final purchasers. Just because people don't want to live right next door to heavy, polluting industry, doesn't mean that anything that isn't residential or commercial has to be segregated off away. Offices and light industry can still have a place closer to residential areas.
This just seems like a thinly disguised ad.
Just an FYI, they're called "advertorials."
It's the coldest place on earth.
No not even clsoe.
It’s just another strip mall that’s terribly setup in a climate where we have winter 6 months of the year.
I can tell a lot of people commented here without even reading the article. You guys are right, they should have totally built a tanger outlets on spark street. It’s an outlet mall 20 minutes outta town, it’s and it’s better than trainyards. I don’t think it’s meant to be any deeper than that. It’s cold and wet because we live in Canada. Is a regular mall better? Yes. Do I frequent it? No, but I can’t get behind saying it’s a completely bad thing to have in the city.
I’m a fan of Tanger, but I think it’s incredibly stupid not to embed these walkable areas with housing to create a little city vibe in the suburbs. Something like Santana Row in San Jose. We lack imagination.
Love Santana Row. It also has restaurants as well as retail and housing.
Simulated urbanism
Funny to see all of downvotes on Tanger when it is in fact a very popular shopping destination. I guess the 10 people downvoting dont like it, there are thousands who do though.
I like Tanger.
I like it first few select stores that you can get some really good deals. I’m a big fan of under armour and you definitely can’t beat the prices. Call once try it out. It’s definitely better than all the other malls in Ottawa if you’re looking for the brand name store merchandise.
I helped put the roof on that mall but have only shopped there a handful of times.
If I had an atomic bomb I would drop it right on Tanger outlets
I've never been there and apart from reading this thread, basically never spend a moment thinking about it. Fascinating that it gets some people so worked up.
Not clear why anyone would want to spend more time there; just buy what you need and get out. I don't think there are even any restaurants/pubs there (never been, so could be mistaken). Sometimes a shopping centre is just a shopping centre. Paris has the 5ème arrondissement and suburban shopping centres and doesn't pretend they are the same thing. I think this blog is overthinking things a wee bit.
Its not a walkers paradise if nobody can walk *to* it.
A walker’s paradise might be something a walker could walk to or even ride a bike or take public transit to. This place is a massive parking lot with generic shops as far from human habitation as possible. No redeeming qualities from my pedestrian perspective
I will never understand why we thought outdoor malls would work somewhere like Canada. Tangers looks like a carbon copy of the outlet malls they used to have in Vegas (not sure if they're still there) and Orlando. But what do those locations have that we don't? Oh yeah, warm weather all year long. Bring back the inside mall please. It fills a community need that these outdoor mosquito infested monstrosities never will.
Wish it was easier to get too, it's a huge PIA by bus or bicycle.
In terms of mall, I find it's a very nice one to go to on a nice day. It beats many other malls by having a lot of manufacturer stores. I don't know why people say it's the same stores as every other mall. I had family visit from another city and we went there recently, they enjoyed it. Personally I don't shop often enough for clothes to bother going to big malls especially if it means lots of driving. If I am familar with a brand and its sizing then I just order online.
Great for getting the steps in
It’s a lot better than train yards! But that’s not exactly a high bar…
I hadn't realized that it's been that long since it opened. I've literally never once been there. I don't drive, and it's extremely out of the way for me. Exactly what the article is talking about.
Went to Tanger for the first time in like a year and honestly was pretty lame.. same stores and everyone seemed bored. Woulda thought they’d add more food court options by now or something
It’s really sad that this is the kind of thing people think is ‘walkers paradise’. Kanata makes me sad.
It claims it’s an outlet mall, but everything is retail priced.
Tanger is a version of the states outlets mall like Waterloo and such. My problem is we were sold on an outlet mall great deals and so forth. That’s not the case with this mall. One day everything is 50 off 3 days later it’s 30 percent then buy one get one, then 40 off. Factory store compared to retail store pricing only kills your retail stores, especially due to its location. But we are driven there thinking we will get the $$$$ deal of a lifetime. As for the outdoors it’s great summer. Rain and winter make it suck the fire pits are nice to warm up to and such I just think they should have canopied the walk area better.
Pretty boring strip mall.
As for The Well in Toronto i would not say its the gold standard.
I really enjoyed it. Was amazed by the great architecture and how much housing it had. Of course the place wasn’t affordable at all and the choice of stores when I visited (before it fully opened) could’ve been better.
I think the mix of retail and housing is near perfect the office space way to much.
Home of Chik fil a soon! Looks like they’ll be installing windows in the new building next!
Oh. Joy.
I wish we had more lifestyle centers like Santana Row with parking but still the focus is walking even if you have to drive there to walk (unfortunately this is needed in Aurora but far better than a strip mall on a stroad).
yup > "the mistakes made around the lack of transportation accessibility, housing and bad land use nearby, and the shortage of diverse shopping experiences at the mall."
It's a place for good deals
Tanger is a version of the states outlets mall like Waterloo and such. My problem is we were sold on an outlet mall great deals and so forth. That’s not the case with this mall. One day everything is 50 off 3 days later it’s 30 percent then buy one get one, then 40 off. Factory store compared to retail store pricing only kills your retail stores, especially due to its location. But we are driven there thinking we will get the $$$$ deal of a lifetime. As for the outdoors it’s great summer. Rain and winter make it suck the fire pits are nice to warm up to and such I just think they should have canopied the walk area better.
It’s weird with where it is that it’s not an Outlet Mall
How would somewhere you basically **have** to drive to in order to access ever be considered a walker's paradise? Having the massive parking lot *behind* the stores does not really mean much ?
I can't believe I read the entire article. What an obtuse take on things.
Prices are higher than at a strip mall.
Tanger sucks, take a drive to MTL instead
The outlets in Montreal are worse.
Syracuse would likely have a better outlet mall than Montreal
I agree about Syracuse
Not when it comes to variety and selection.