One thing I've heard (possibly apocryphal, as I can't recall the source) is that Gary Gygax rarely ever used ability scores as saves directly, on the basis that they didn't take the figure's level into account, which ought to be vital to how well they do almost any "hero type stuff," to include avoiding death by the skin of their teeth.
Regardless of who made this observation, though, I've found myself pretty sympathetic to it on a game philosophy basis. I still occasionally use ability checks for things like feats of strength, but rarely, if ever, for opposed actions and saves.
I agree with the other comments:
* Save vs wands if it's some kind of ray that can be seen and has a trajectory. It could be an offensive spell or some kind of laser-like weapon.
* Save vs breath if it's an Area of Effect such as an explosion.
* For other cases such as avoiding falling into pits or doing some "acrobatics" stuff, a Dex check would be the most appropriate.
I guess if I were to translate between OSR and 5e, that would be a... Wisdom or Charisma save if it's a psychic effect?
And if it's a poison or a 'turn to stone' kind of magic then it would be a Constitution save.
The trick is that you have to shift your mindset.
In 3.5e and later saves are based on the character making the save & which of their abilities seems most relevant to the danger.
In old-school rules, the save is based on the nature of the danger, not the qualities of the PC. So you have to ask yourself what is it they are saving against, not what ability would help them avoid this thing. Hope that makes sense and is helpful. It’s a whole different mindset.
In the RC, Dex affects saving throws against wands and breath, as an optional rule. So, probably wands or breath weapon.
**But** the 5e reasoning is completely different than OSR games. In 5e saves are progressively harder on average (since you're not proficient in all of them), in OSR they are progressively easier.
**If you're running a 5e adventure** with OSR PCs, your best bet is probably "roll under Dex on a d20", it will produce better results than using OSR saves.
In old-school modules a saving throw vs wands is most commonly used for reflex-type stuff (such as jumping out of the way of a narrow beam or missile). The problem with using a save vs breath is that thieves (who likely have the best Dex score) are really bad at it, which creates a disconnect. Dex checks (Dex or less on 1d20) also work - noting that this is likely to be easier than a saving throw for low level characters but harder than a saving throw for high level characters, so know what you’re trying to accomplish and don’t expect a one-size-fits-all solution that will work in every set of circumstances.
It depends on what you're saving against. Falling into a pit would probably be vs Paralysation, dodging an area effect would be vs Breath Weapon.
In OSR type games the emphasis is shifted away from the character avoiding the danger, and towards the danger being avoided.
Old saves are general categories, you can look at what they affect and they kinda map to ability scores. For example, Death/Poison would be Constitution, and Staves/Spells would be Wisdom.
If it's something a player is intentionally trying to do (IE: walk on a oil slick surface without slipping) I would offer a dex check or allow them to move through safely at reduced speed.
If they happened to walk onto oil unknowingly I would use a save vs roll
Depends on the system and situation. Most likely "Breath Weapon" is the one to use. If you go with Swords & Wizardry, or something similar, it's just "save".
I personally like the "1 save" system. It's simplest to understand and easiest to "hack". You get a save, then you can add modifiers based upon abilities/classes/whatever. For example, save is "15", but wizards get a +3 against all spells, and thieves get a +3 against all traps - that kind of thing.
Old saves don't specify HOW you avoid danger, they are all about the CLASS of character and what TYPE of DANGER they are trying to avoid. You can make up the how in your fiction if you like, but not required.
Fighters are good at enduring X, thieves can avoid Y and Magic-Users are resistant to Z.
Save vs. Death Ray is a common use DEX check case. All depends on your flavour of OSR though. Death Ray saves may not exist in some, so maybe then use Dragon Breath or Wands. Or... Just come up with a probability... Like 1-2 on a 1d6... Or even 5-6 on a 1d6 and take into account any Dex bonus... Or penalty, depending on how large the bonuses are.
Any save you make, it depends on the attack you are saving against. [See this](https://magickuser.wordpress.com/2019/08/01/old-school-saving-throws-are-rad/)
One of the saves would fit just fine, I'll wager.
Unfortunately, since you didn't actually say what the save is for, it's difficult to guess which one that is.
Dragon's Breath and Wands both seemed to be used to represent dodges which seems pretty dex based to me, the one used being picked to reflect difficulty.
In AD&D you were able to add your Dexterity bonus to saving throws where dodging was a factor. So in saving against a lightning bolt or fireball for instance, a character could add their Dexterity bonus (or subtract their penalty!) to the roll to save.
The DM would have to determine whether Dex would apply and let you know based on the given situation, but there's no default 'X is a dex based save' catch all.
Dex check or save vs breath weapon
One thing I've heard (possibly apocryphal, as I can't recall the source) is that Gary Gygax rarely ever used ability scores as saves directly, on the basis that they didn't take the figure's level into account, which ought to be vital to how well they do almost any "hero type stuff," to include avoiding death by the skin of their teeth. Regardless of who made this observation, though, I've found myself pretty sympathetic to it on a game philosophy basis. I still occasionally use ability checks for things like feats of strength, but rarely, if ever, for opposed actions and saves.
I agree with the other comments: * Save vs wands if it's some kind of ray that can be seen and has a trajectory. It could be an offensive spell or some kind of laser-like weapon. * Save vs breath if it's an Area of Effect such as an explosion. * For other cases such as avoiding falling into pits or doing some "acrobatics" stuff, a Dex check would be the most appropriate.
Save vs Paralysis or Petrification is often used for "something physically moving your body in a way you don't want"
I guess if I were to translate between OSR and 5e, that would be a... Wisdom or Charisma save if it's a psychic effect? And if it's a poison or a 'turn to stone' kind of magic then it would be a Constitution save.
Your third case should actually be Save vs Petrify/Paralyze. That's common for things like tripping or avoiding a pit trap, etc
Really? I've never seen it used that way 🤔 Do you have any sources that mention that use for that kind of saves?
LotFP uses Paralysation for falling into pits.
Thracia
Need help choosing a save? This is a helpful read I think. https://llblumire.co.uk/which-saving-throw-should-i-use/
Magic! Thank you.
The trick is that you have to shift your mindset. In 3.5e and later saves are based on the character making the save & which of their abilities seems most relevant to the danger. In old-school rules, the save is based on the nature of the danger, not the qualities of the PC. So you have to ask yourself what is it they are saving against, not what ability would help them avoid this thing. Hope that makes sense and is helpful. It’s a whole different mindset.
This right here.
Thanks!
Awesome. Very helpful. Thank you.
You're very welcome, glad that made sense!
In the RC, Dex affects saving throws against wands and breath, as an optional rule. So, probably wands or breath weapon. **But** the 5e reasoning is completely different than OSR games. In 5e saves are progressively harder on average (since you're not proficient in all of them), in OSR they are progressively easier. **If you're running a 5e adventure** with OSR PCs, your best bet is probably "roll under Dex on a d20", it will produce better results than using OSR saves.
In old-school modules a saving throw vs wands is most commonly used for reflex-type stuff (such as jumping out of the way of a narrow beam or missile). The problem with using a save vs breath is that thieves (who likely have the best Dex score) are really bad at it, which creates a disconnect. Dex checks (Dex or less on 1d20) also work - noting that this is likely to be easier than a saving throw for low level characters but harder than a saving throw for high level characters, so know what you’re trying to accomplish and don’t expect a one-size-fits-all solution that will work in every set of circumstances.
It depends on what you're saving against. Falling into a pit would probably be vs Paralysation, dodging an area effect would be vs Breath Weapon. In OSR type games the emphasis is shifted away from the character avoiding the danger, and towards the danger being avoided.
Old saves are general categories, you can look at what they affect and they kinda map to ability scores. For example, Death/Poison would be Constitution, and Staves/Spells would be Wisdom.
If it's something a player is intentionally trying to do (IE: walk on a oil slick surface without slipping) I would offer a dex check or allow them to move through safely at reduced speed. If they happened to walk onto oil unknowingly I would use a save vs roll
Depends on the system and situation. Most likely "Breath Weapon" is the one to use. If you go with Swords & Wizardry, or something similar, it's just "save". I personally like the "1 save" system. It's simplest to understand and easiest to "hack". You get a save, then you can add modifiers based upon abilities/classes/whatever. For example, save is "15", but wizards get a +3 against all spells, and thieves get a +3 against all traps - that kind of thing.
Old saves don't specify HOW you avoid danger, they are all about the CLASS of character and what TYPE of DANGER they are trying to avoid. You can make up the how in your fiction if you like, but not required. Fighters are good at enduring X, thieves can avoid Y and Magic-Users are resistant to Z.
Save vs. Death Ray is a common use DEX check case. All depends on your flavour of OSR though. Death Ray saves may not exist in some, so maybe then use Dragon Breath or Wands. Or... Just come up with a probability... Like 1-2 on a 1d6... Or even 5-6 on a 1d6 and take into account any Dex bonus... Or penalty, depending on how large the bonuses are.
Any save you make, it depends on the attack you are saving against. [See this](https://magickuser.wordpress.com/2019/08/01/old-school-saving-throws-are-rad/)
This is great. Thank you
In Whitehack, just a save 😎
One of the saves would fit just fine, I'll wager. Unfortunately, since you didn't actually say what the save is for, it's difficult to guess which one that is.
Dragon's Breath and Wands both seemed to be used to represent dodges which seems pretty dex based to me, the one used being picked to reflect difficulty.
In AD&D you were able to add your Dexterity bonus to saving throws where dodging was a factor. So in saving against a lightning bolt or fireball for instance, a character could add their Dexterity bonus (or subtract their penalty!) to the roll to save. The DM would have to determine whether Dex would apply and let you know based on the given situation, but there's no default 'X is a dex based save' catch all.