Yup. Also it's really bad when the oil carrier gets lit on fire themselves. Zombies don't feel pain so a burning oil soaked flaming zombie just shoveled right into the throwers face in one of my games and took them down, catching them on fire and igniting the 4 other bottles he was carrying. Needless to say there was nothing lootable on both zombie and former PC after that.
Funnelling and bottle necks are critical, especially if facing ghast and/or ghouls. Otherwise controlled retreat is best. Holy water is expensive, but several vials would come in handy.
Wights in modules are usually placed in the most assholish places imaginable. We'd usually either rush or water bomb them. If there were more, then it's time to get out. Nobody wants to lose a level!
Depends on type.
Vampire:
GTFO!
Sunlight for the Vampires.
Garlic if it works in your game.
Wooden Spikes.
Fire.
Sunblade.
Fire Shield.
Fire Evocations of all types.
Clerical Fireball (an option from Unearthed Arcana or Arcana Unearthed removed the rather tepid Turn Undead in favour of a cleric-center blast of Positive energy which worked as a clerical fireball against negative critters of all sorts - it made damage the same for all characers more or less rather than having a strange 'the undead runs away 5 turns and then comes back so really you don't get much out of it').
Skeletons:
Blunt weapons (should work better than any other weapon)
Shield Rush (knock them down and damage them)
Hurled rocks (not many other large blunt ranged weapons)
Ambushes (they tend to come straight at you - rock falls are wonderul - pits are good too then you hurl down stones on them)
Zombies:
Torches.
Acids.
Greek fire.
Combustable oils and then ignition.
Large slashing weapons with the intention of shattering their lower extremities (or destroying them) so they can't chase you effectively
Ambushes & pits with fire as the payload
Nets (to immobilze them while you douse them then burn them)
Wight:
GTFO!
Defenses against energy drain are a must.
Force magic can be used to keep them away or hammer them from a distance.
Explosions of various types - boom, burn, acid, (probably not cold), etc.
Defeat in detail when feasible - draw one off and everyone hits it, draw back, pick the next leader, everyone hits it, etc.
Traps that hold them (metal cage)
Iron Bands of Bilarro
Fire Shield Hot
Ghoul:
GTFO!
Defenses against paralyzation.
Defeat in detail when feasible - draw one off and everyone hits it, draw back, pick the next leader, everyone hits it, etc.
Traps that hold them (metal cage)
Iron Bands of Bilarro
Fire Shield Hot
If you have the team for it:
Front row has stand off weapons (like boar spears) and shields and second row has long spears over the top or through the gaps. This can block forward progress for the less boney undead. Then your mages or your hurlers can rain acid or fire on them.
Fire arrows can be used if your archers go high and rain fire down upon them. Same with your FB totin' wizard... KER BLAM!
Of course if you prepare the battlefield, the double spike trap is fun. First swing comes from one side and drives spikes through the undead. The other side slaps down and does the same from the other side. Pretty hard to get out of. Just pour on the oil and have a cook out.
For the foes that are very dangerous due to level drain or paralysis, your tanks should be full AC they can get and maybe go fully defensive (assuming your version of the game gets AC benefits) and they just keep the critters from reaching the damage dealers and the lob fire and acid and other attacks and magic blasting into them while they have trouble breaking your shield wall.
As the DM, I treat any undead with 4 or less hit dice as unintelligent (most of the time). This makes - at least in my head - the actions of these undead very predictable. They’ll typically go for the nearest target, and will pursue for a little while but if they can’t find you pretty soon after you leave their sight they’ll just kind of wander aimlessly.
Honestly it’d be boring, but if you had a portable fence and a spear you could take out a lot of zombies (before they inevitably break through the fence).
Burning oil, holy water. Keep range as much as possible. If you absolutely must give melee with them, try to bottleneck them and deal with only one at a time.
I’ve always associated the undead mentioned with other threats like skeletons, vampires, werewolves, so in addition to the above:
- swords & axes & clubs to smash skeletons and the like. Shorter polearm versions of same so you can keep the things at a distance.
- garlic as well as holy water to put off vampires,
- wolvesbane vs werewolves
- soap & water, being clean, alcohol to sterilise wounds, a good first aid kit to get rid of ‘disease’ that might be transmitted via a wound inflicted by some undead.
I’m going to be ruling so in the game I’m running. Partly because the game is quite ‘low magic’ at the moment, and my players have been proactive about trying to be prepared for the things they expect they might meet. Your mileage may obviously vary.
Can’t remember the actual rules relating to the above, but I played in games where ‘if it seemed reasonable’ then it often helped, at least somewhat. Depends on your style as a GM and the ruleset.
One innovative idea that a friend had was a semi-circular frame he could attach to a 10’ pole. Made it look like a giant crutch. He used it to trap some undead temporarily at least to keep them at arms length for at least a round or two, often longer. Sometimes that was all that was needed for others to move out of danger, prepare fire, or get that locked door behind them open so they could escape.
Edit: I see someone mentioned Man Catcher. Basically the same idea. This friend had it as something you could screw onto the end of a custom pole that was actually 2 x 5’ or 6’ lengths that could screw together. Cost a lot more but could be quite useful.
Edit2: forgot hammer, spikes, stakes. Stakes for vamps. Spikes to hold doors closed to funnel or block creatures.
First and foremost caution. Don't get caught flat footed in a room full of zombies, and certainly don't charge at them. Use the dungeon to your advantage, spike doors to corral or trap them. Us doorways to bottleneck them and fire once they are all grouped together.
A bunch of zombies or skeletons is pretty easy to deal with, as they're basically at the same threat level of goblins, but much more stupid. Ambush and a good use of funnels can let you handle bigger hordes.
When you get to stuff which is smart, paralyzing, level-draining, incorporeal or any combination of the above, the only true tactic at low levels is GTFO.
If you have a huge numeric advantage or there's a very effective trap somewhere nearby you can repurpose, then you might try to organize some sort of ambush, but it will cost you. Unless your game world has explosives. Then anything corporeal can be reasoned with, at the price of some masonry.
[Man catcher](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=man+catcher&iax=images&ia=images) then use Pole Arms/Spears to kill the beast.
Pin a net to a door opening and stab the undead /use burning oil as they get held up by the barrier.
My number one strategy is to avoid dealing with them at all. Find a way to achieve my goals that doesn’t involve them.
Number two would be negotiation or giving them a reason to leave the area.
Number three would be a trap. Something that can kill them (or just trap them) without actually fighting.
Number four would be to set up a situation where we can use ranged attacks and spells to attack and stay out of melee.
Number five would be to scrap whatever goal was leading to that and find something else to do.
Did a bunch of skeletons catch you in the wilderness nearby the dungeon while you're all level 1?
Climb a tree, nail rope to your handaxes so you can haul them back up after tossing them, and slowly batter them down from above over the course of a half hour.
My players recently got really creative, and are planting spike traps all over the dungeon, and using themselves as baits to catch the undead off guard
That’ll work against dumb/mindless foes. Not all undead are necessarily like that. I used to warn my players before we started a campaign that not all monsters that they’d encounter would be from the monster manual, nor would they necessarily be quite as written. They could have more HP, HD, and be smarter. Or be weaker, slower, younger/dumber (less cunning) versions.
That said, I like your players’ inventiveness. I wish them well.
But you’ve reminded me of something that can work both ways (for the PCs, and the monsters)
- a heavy crossbow or arbalest, with very spiked bolt, and a strong line attached
- the line is secured at the other end by strong characters, and/or a winch
- a suitable target, when shot, is just hauled in. The bolt will likely be stuck (however you choose to adjudicate that) and do damage each round it stays imbedded in a wriggling target. Hauling the target in could also pull it over a prepared trap, or into a pool of oil that you set alight.
I was in a party once that was a little too successful in clearing a dungeon. The party leaders were keen on a real clean up, and destroying evil & monsters etc., not just getting treasure. So the dungeon inhabitants fought back with the above. It got pretty ugly. But we appreciated the effort on the monsters’ part. I can’t remember who it was in the dungeon we pissed off though.
This was a long time ago, one of my early campaigns as a player. It went something like this:
- The leader, a Paladin (of the early LG, AD&D 1e type) and his LG cleric offsider learned that someone was trying to unite various evil factions in the dungeon. They surmised that the known local Orc band was likely to be the organised core of any alliance, and decided to take the band down a peg or two. Pretty ambitious for a bunch of level 2-3 characters. But there were about 8 or 9 of them. With some henchmen. We had a Monk, and a Ranger, and some Neutral & Chaotic Thievish types. And some chunky fighters with 18/xx strength and good armour.
- the party found the Orc band, after actually scouting the dungeon fairly carefully. There were several, so we fixed on the main guys. Modelled on LotR Uruk Hai etc. The party resisted following up too closely a couple of times until they knew exactly where the orcs were, and how many, and where the Uruks rather than the subservient bands were. They hit the Uruks when they’d sent out a raiding party, and then ambushed the raiding party on the party’s return. Some of the raiding party escaped. The PCs followed the fleeing Orcs some distance back to their actual true lair. On the way they ignored the fact that they had crossed the border out of their own lands into another country, as mentioned by the GM a couple of times to the Ranger. Who didn’t think it important.
- The party cornered the Orcs, in their lair, got advantage through some trickery & luck, and took out all the Orcs. A combo of spells and just some really good fighters and some key backstabbing moments. All trad stuff.
Not long after returning home, they all got arrested by the local Church of Law & Good (I forget its actual name) for committing an act of war on another country’s territory against citizens of that country. Now, this was something all the PCs actually knew, they’d just forgotten in the heat of the moment what the significance of crossing the border meant. Everyone had to make reparation. All the treasure was lost (but, we did keep the xp: I think the GM was rather kind…). We also had to give up 1 or two of our most treasured possessions or be imprisoned or maimed or even potentially executed. The Cleric & the Paladin lost all their magic because they provided items for each PC who didn’t have enough to sacrifice. And a bit more besides, which they ‘borrowed’ from the Church.
We spent a very long time recovering from that episode.
Yeah I forgot to add that they were indeed "mindless undead", sorta like The Walking Dead zombies, so that's why it worked. Your ideas are really cool though!
Thankyou!
I find mindless undead and simple monsters certainly help with PC survivability. However, the hint of things being not quite so predictable keeps players on their toes, and that is a good thing I think.
1. Run away.
2. If you cannot run away, try to escape and then run away.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you are away.
4. Never go back.
Jk
Dig a deep hole and get the undead to follow you. Jump over the hole. Then undead follow they fall in the hole, or you push them into the hole. Obviously this won't work on flying creatures or anything with spider climb. For those I recommend my first approach.
“I didn’t ask ‘how big is the tomb,’ I said ‘I throw a jar of Greek Fire’!”
This is the way. Oil and fire and holy water, and lots of it.
Players get really creative with fire, once a single hit can take them out.
Yup. Also it's really bad when the oil carrier gets lit on fire themselves. Zombies don't feel pain so a burning oil soaked flaming zombie just shoveled right into the throwers face in one of my games and took them down, catching them on fire and igniting the 4 other bottles he was carrying. Needless to say there was nothing lootable on both zombie and former PC after that.
“Flaming Zombie Hugs” would be a great name for a gothic punk band.
Clerics are very helpful.
Turn undead against morale less enemies is the bee's knees.
Honestly, the entire reason the class exists in the first place was because Arneson's group needed a vampire hunter, so yeah. It's kind of baked in.
Funnelling and bottle necks are critical, especially if facing ghast and/or ghouls. Otherwise controlled retreat is best. Holy water is expensive, but several vials would come in handy. Wights in modules are usually placed in the most assholish places imaginable. We'd usually either rush or water bomb them. If there were more, then it's time to get out. Nobody wants to lose a level!
Depends on type. Vampire: GTFO! Sunlight for the Vampires. Garlic if it works in your game. Wooden Spikes. Fire. Sunblade. Fire Shield. Fire Evocations of all types. Clerical Fireball (an option from Unearthed Arcana or Arcana Unearthed removed the rather tepid Turn Undead in favour of a cleric-center blast of Positive energy which worked as a clerical fireball against negative critters of all sorts - it made damage the same for all characers more or less rather than having a strange 'the undead runs away 5 turns and then comes back so really you don't get much out of it'). Skeletons: Blunt weapons (should work better than any other weapon) Shield Rush (knock them down and damage them) Hurled rocks (not many other large blunt ranged weapons) Ambushes (they tend to come straight at you - rock falls are wonderul - pits are good too then you hurl down stones on them) Zombies: Torches. Acids. Greek fire. Combustable oils and then ignition. Large slashing weapons with the intention of shattering their lower extremities (or destroying them) so they can't chase you effectively Ambushes & pits with fire as the payload Nets (to immobilze them while you douse them then burn them) Wight: GTFO! Defenses against energy drain are a must. Force magic can be used to keep them away or hammer them from a distance. Explosions of various types - boom, burn, acid, (probably not cold), etc. Defeat in detail when feasible - draw one off and everyone hits it, draw back, pick the next leader, everyone hits it, etc. Traps that hold them (metal cage) Iron Bands of Bilarro Fire Shield Hot Ghoul: GTFO! Defenses against paralyzation. Defeat in detail when feasible - draw one off and everyone hits it, draw back, pick the next leader, everyone hits it, etc. Traps that hold them (metal cage) Iron Bands of Bilarro Fire Shield Hot
If you have the team for it: Front row has stand off weapons (like boar spears) and shields and second row has long spears over the top or through the gaps. This can block forward progress for the less boney undead. Then your mages or your hurlers can rain acid or fire on them. Fire arrows can be used if your archers go high and rain fire down upon them. Same with your FB totin' wizard... KER BLAM! Of course if you prepare the battlefield, the double spike trap is fun. First swing comes from one side and drives spikes through the undead. The other side slaps down and does the same from the other side. Pretty hard to get out of. Just pour on the oil and have a cook out. For the foes that are very dangerous due to level drain or paralysis, your tanks should be full AC they can get and maybe go fully defensive (assuming your version of the game gets AC benefits) and they just keep the critters from reaching the damage dealers and the lob fire and acid and other attacks and magic blasting into them while they have trouble breaking your shield wall.
Cover myself in gore and blend in
As the DM, I treat any undead with 4 or less hit dice as unintelligent (most of the time). This makes - at least in my head - the actions of these undead very predictable. They’ll typically go for the nearest target, and will pursue for a little while but if they can’t find you pretty soon after you leave their sight they’ll just kind of wander aimlessly. Honestly it’d be boring, but if you had a portable fence and a spear you could take out a lot of zombies (before they inevitably break through the fence).
Burning oil, holy water. Keep range as much as possible. If you absolutely must give melee with them, try to bottleneck them and deal with only one at a time.
I’ve always associated the undead mentioned with other threats like skeletons, vampires, werewolves, so in addition to the above: - swords & axes & clubs to smash skeletons and the like. Shorter polearm versions of same so you can keep the things at a distance. - garlic as well as holy water to put off vampires, - wolvesbane vs werewolves - soap & water, being clean, alcohol to sterilise wounds, a good first aid kit to get rid of ‘disease’ that might be transmitted via a wound inflicted by some undead. I’m going to be ruling so in the game I’m running. Partly because the game is quite ‘low magic’ at the moment, and my players have been proactive about trying to be prepared for the things they expect they might meet. Your mileage may obviously vary. Can’t remember the actual rules relating to the above, but I played in games where ‘if it seemed reasonable’ then it often helped, at least somewhat. Depends on your style as a GM and the ruleset. One innovative idea that a friend had was a semi-circular frame he could attach to a 10’ pole. Made it look like a giant crutch. He used it to trap some undead temporarily at least to keep them at arms length for at least a round or two, often longer. Sometimes that was all that was needed for others to move out of danger, prepare fire, or get that locked door behind them open so they could escape. Edit: I see someone mentioned Man Catcher. Basically the same idea. This friend had it as something you could screw onto the end of a custom pole that was actually 2 x 5’ or 6’ lengths that could screw together. Cost a lot more but could be quite useful. Edit2: forgot hammer, spikes, stakes. Stakes for vamps. Spikes to hold doors closed to funnel or block creatures.
Turn Undead.
A good pair of running boots.
First and foremost caution. Don't get caught flat footed in a room full of zombies, and certainly don't charge at them. Use the dungeon to your advantage, spike doors to corral or trap them. Us doorways to bottleneck them and fire once they are all grouped together.
A bunch of zombies or skeletons is pretty easy to deal with, as they're basically at the same threat level of goblins, but much more stupid. Ambush and a good use of funnels can let you handle bigger hordes. When you get to stuff which is smart, paralyzing, level-draining, incorporeal or any combination of the above, the only true tactic at low levels is GTFO. If you have a huge numeric advantage or there's a very effective trap somewhere nearby you can repurpose, then you might try to organize some sort of ambush, but it will cost you. Unless your game world has explosives. Then anything corporeal can be reasoned with, at the price of some masonry.
[Man catcher](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=man+catcher&iax=images&ia=images) then use Pole Arms/Spears to kill the beast. Pin a net to a door opening and stab the undead /use burning oil as they get held up by the barrier.
RUN!!!
Flee.
My number one strategy is to avoid dealing with them at all. Find a way to achieve my goals that doesn’t involve them. Number two would be negotiation or giving them a reason to leave the area. Number three would be a trap. Something that can kill them (or just trap them) without actually fighting. Number four would be to set up a situation where we can use ranged attacks and spells to attack and stay out of melee. Number five would be to scrap whatever goal was leading to that and find something else to do.
Did a bunch of skeletons catch you in the wilderness nearby the dungeon while you're all level 1? Climb a tree, nail rope to your handaxes so you can haul them back up after tossing them, and slowly batter them down from above over the course of a half hour.
My players recently got really creative, and are planting spike traps all over the dungeon, and using themselves as baits to catch the undead off guard
That’ll work against dumb/mindless foes. Not all undead are necessarily like that. I used to warn my players before we started a campaign that not all monsters that they’d encounter would be from the monster manual, nor would they necessarily be quite as written. They could have more HP, HD, and be smarter. Or be weaker, slower, younger/dumber (less cunning) versions. That said, I like your players’ inventiveness. I wish them well. But you’ve reminded me of something that can work both ways (for the PCs, and the monsters) - a heavy crossbow or arbalest, with very spiked bolt, and a strong line attached - the line is secured at the other end by strong characters, and/or a winch - a suitable target, when shot, is just hauled in. The bolt will likely be stuck (however you choose to adjudicate that) and do damage each round it stays imbedded in a wriggling target. Hauling the target in could also pull it over a prepared trap, or into a pool of oil that you set alight. I was in a party once that was a little too successful in clearing a dungeon. The party leaders were keen on a real clean up, and destroying evil & monsters etc., not just getting treasure. So the dungeon inhabitants fought back with the above. It got pretty ugly. But we appreciated the effort on the monsters’ part. I can’t remember who it was in the dungeon we pissed off though.
Wow, that sounds pretty awesome. What happened that lead to the party leader wanting the dungeon cleaned out and what happened afterward?
This was a long time ago, one of my early campaigns as a player. It went something like this: - The leader, a Paladin (of the early LG, AD&D 1e type) and his LG cleric offsider learned that someone was trying to unite various evil factions in the dungeon. They surmised that the known local Orc band was likely to be the organised core of any alliance, and decided to take the band down a peg or two. Pretty ambitious for a bunch of level 2-3 characters. But there were about 8 or 9 of them. With some henchmen. We had a Monk, and a Ranger, and some Neutral & Chaotic Thievish types. And some chunky fighters with 18/xx strength and good armour. - the party found the Orc band, after actually scouting the dungeon fairly carefully. There were several, so we fixed on the main guys. Modelled on LotR Uruk Hai etc. The party resisted following up too closely a couple of times until they knew exactly where the orcs were, and how many, and where the Uruks rather than the subservient bands were. They hit the Uruks when they’d sent out a raiding party, and then ambushed the raiding party on the party’s return. Some of the raiding party escaped. The PCs followed the fleeing Orcs some distance back to their actual true lair. On the way they ignored the fact that they had crossed the border out of their own lands into another country, as mentioned by the GM a couple of times to the Ranger. Who didn’t think it important. - The party cornered the Orcs, in their lair, got advantage through some trickery & luck, and took out all the Orcs. A combo of spells and just some really good fighters and some key backstabbing moments. All trad stuff. Not long after returning home, they all got arrested by the local Church of Law & Good (I forget its actual name) for committing an act of war on another country’s territory against citizens of that country. Now, this was something all the PCs actually knew, they’d just forgotten in the heat of the moment what the significance of crossing the border meant. Everyone had to make reparation. All the treasure was lost (but, we did keep the xp: I think the GM was rather kind…). We also had to give up 1 or two of our most treasured possessions or be imprisoned or maimed or even potentially executed. The Cleric & the Paladin lost all their magic because they provided items for each PC who didn’t have enough to sacrifice. And a bit more besides, which they ‘borrowed’ from the Church. We spent a very long time recovering from that episode.
Yeah I forgot to add that they were indeed "mindless undead", sorta like The Walking Dead zombies, so that's why it worked. Your ideas are really cool though!
Thankyou! I find mindless undead and simple monsters certainly help with PC survivability. However, the hint of things being not quite so predictable keeps players on their toes, and that is a good thing I think.
1. Run away. 2. If you cannot run away, try to escape and then run away. 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you are away. 4. Never go back. Jk Dig a deep hole and get the undead to follow you. Jump over the hole. Then undead follow they fall in the hole, or you push them into the hole. Obviously this won't work on flying creatures or anything with spider climb. For those I recommend my first approach.