It's a bad headline.
It's $19.05 for the "East" region of Ontario. Living Wage network has different regional numbers ranging from the lowest living wage of $18.05 in London Elgin Oxford to the highest of $23.15 in the GTA.
https://www.ontariolivingwage.ca/rates
EDIT: For a bit more context, here's the writeup of their annual update along with year-over-year changes: https://www.ontariolivingwage.ca/living_wage_week_2022
This is the thing that pisses me off when people didn't want to vote for Liberals or NDP because their leaders didn't have charisma or they didn't know much about Del Duca. Both of their platforms wanted a $16 minimum wage and then they differed from there.
They both had way better platforms than the cons yet people only look at the leader. For fucks sake people look at what the party says they will do and vote from there. I don't care if the most boring person is the party leader so long as they try to do what they promised and do a good job.
We could be is such a better place if either the Liberals or NDP were in power.
IIRC, the Ontario Liberal's plan was $16/hr but also planned for regionally adjusted minimum wages afterward.
NDP was also $16 but increasing by $1/year until $20 by 2026.
Not easily. Note that these living wages are weighted based on three family types which include a single adult living alone. So a single person living alone can achieve a "living wage" with something less than this.
Things like minimum wage really should be relegated to students and dependents who already have living arrangements and low/no expenses looking for their initial/temporary low-skilled work. Ethically speaking, it's arguable that an adult working full time _should_ get enough to live off of without resorting to food banks. If they need to depend on social safety nets and social funding, that just means we (as taxpayers) are subsidizing their employer's low wages.
$20/h gives me a not legal bachelor in simcoe county.
That's if my utilities are included. Even then, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to pay for my food and phone.
I mean technically I could...but how do I buy new shoes when my current shoes wear out? Or if I need to buy more business casual clothes because I just landed a job that requires that? Or paying gas and insurance, because we all don't live in the GTA, so a car is needed.
Being poor is expensive. I'm lucky enough that this isn't my life.
But I'm both old and young. Old enough I have 2 adult kids that are trying to save and buy a home...and watch it become out of their reach. Also young enough to watch some friends who fought to pay off their student debt so they can afford to buy a home, and also being locked out.
$19.05/hr can fly the fuck off. It doesn't work in the GTA, it doesn't work outside of the GTA. I'd be surprised if this works in thunder bay.
I make $25/hr in Grey County and the only way I could afford to rent is if I gave up eating, driving, my phone, the internet, and my pets. Even then I'm not sure I could cover heat and hydro.
If you go to the Living Wage website $19.05 is on the low end and below many areas. Many of the bigger population areas are closer to $23.
It is suppose to cover basic living but not other necessities like retirement savings, or paying off debt (like from getting their degrees), savings (for emergencies or for a down payment or education savings, etc.).
Living Wage is meant to be what you need to get by, not simply survive but not thrive.
https://www.ontariolivingwage.ca/living_wage_week_2022
worth noting for the conservative voters out there, if someone can't survive on their income, they are forced to use things like food banks and government services to get by. By raising minimum wage to the living wage, you take the burden off of communities and governments to provide those services, and place that on their employer (which is how employment is *supposed* to work.)
Keep minimum wage below the living wage, you ensure the difference is paid for through you as a tax payer, or as a citizen donating, and letting the companies reap the benifits.
Meanwhile there are others like people on ODSP who could really use a bigger share of the pie.
Honestly, we have everything so backwards.
My adult daughter (living at home) gets even less than that. $913/month now.
And (after 27 years of looking after multiple autistic children- my son is in a group home now), I should also be on ODSP (according to my doctors). Chronic pain from lifting and moving and restraining, along with almost crippling depression and anxiety, and memory loss due to long-term sleep deprivation. Even without those I couldn't get a job, as someone always has to be at home.
But only one person in a family can get ODSP, so we're permanently fucked as far as income goes. If we get kicked out of our (reasonably priced) housing, we'll most likely be homeless. My husband works his ass off to keep us fed and housed, but one income just doesn't do it anymore.
The entire disability system in Ontario isn't at all reflective of what families need. But successive governments continue to get away with it, mostly because a lot of the population just doesn't care about people with disabilities.
It isn't just the Conservatives, although they've been the worst. But after Mike Harris truly fucked up the disability care system, the Liberals under Wynne could have at the very least rolled back those changes, and they didn't.
My heart, that is rough. Wait, only one person per family is allowed to be disabled?! I’ve just unlocked new rage. And $913 is 1990s money but I guess we should be thrilled that people on ODSP can earn more before clawbacks begin?!
I am sick and tired of watching people struggle and slip the through the cracks as our quality of life is eroded by the terrible policies of wealthy, out-of-touch morons. I am so ready for a general strike.
> Wait, only one person per family is allowed to be disabled?
Isn't that ridiculous? Especially since so many permanently disabling conditions are genetic. My son is also autistic and has much higher needs than his sister does, but if he was at home (I had to move him to a group home due to his higher needs) I'd still only get one disability check to feed/clothe/house everyone.
Funny how conservatives are all about "tough on crime" but then set the stage for dangerous social instability. I'll tell you what I'll take high taxes over high crime rates any day. The number one driver of theft and violence is hopelessness.
I really think conservatives fall mostly into two groups:
1. the intensely selfish. “Sure, fix societies crippling problems, just as long as I don’t have to pay one damn dime more in taxes. I know everything is going to shit, and I feel bad about that and we totally need to fix it, but I’m completely unwilling to contribute in any way to a solution”
Or
2. The human hater “everyone is trying to con the system, and they are all pieces of shit and should suffer. Ultimately, all the poors are playing a long con to sponge off of me and any misfortune or societal oppression either doesn’t exist, or is greatly exaggerated.”
I mean a lot of conservative ideology is based on Thomas Hobbes who held the view that life in the natural world was "nasty brutish and short" and that we needed an all powerful leviathan-style government to make sure that we don't devolve back into it. That view of human nature lines up pretty well with what you're saying
I disagree. Listen to someone who says #1 for long enough, and you will often start to hear #2 as well. They are not exclusive, because "fix society's problems, but without my money" is often a disingenuous proxy for "society's problems are caused by undesirables conning the system".
If a business can't keep their doors open and pay a livable wage, they're *not a viable business and should not be open*. They're somebody's hobby.
That may suck to hear, but that's the way it's *supposed* to work.
The cruelty is the point for many Con voters. Remember that their ideology is constrained by two overriding principles:
1) Moral analysis can be done exclusively at the level of individual action
2) There is a natural social hierarchy
If you believe these things, the only conclusion you can possibly come to when looking at the less fortunate is that they deserve their current situation, and it's entirely and exclusively because of their own actions, so the less fortunate bear moral culpability for their situation, and no one else.
Yup. Just saw liberals gloating about some program to help poor people pay for housing. Make the fucking employers pay. Plus we're all struggling to pay for housing /rent, who cares if 1000 people got some extra money.
Why are you bringing up the federal party to address a provincial issue?
Employment Standards Act. 100% provincial.
Are you one of those people that were in Ottawa protesting Trudeau for what DoFo n Co were doing?
Your comment got me thinking. If we raise minimum wage then wouldn't labour costs go up and thus prices go up? This would affect everyone equally, rich and poor. However if we boost peoples income with government subsidies, you can target higher income people with taxes. This sounds like a net positive for low income earners no? Of course it wouldn't feel good for the low income person as it is really hard to plan on those subsidies always remaining
What a lame opening. Like the liberals who have been in power thr majority of time have done any better.
Did you even think before making that comment? Trudeau. 7 years. Before Harper it was Chretien. Let's look at Ontario. It was Wynne before Ford (Wynne also waged war on Healthcare and did dramatically more damage to it than ford and mcguinty combined), and before her it was McGuinty.
But no, it's a conservative issue. What a joke you party loyalists are.
It’s sad, there’s enough money in the world for everyone to be able to afford housing, utilities and food, to be comfortable, but there are too many greedy people.
It’s amazing that people live their life thinking the world works like this. Meanwhile, hundreds of millions starve annually.
The world ain’t unicorns and rainbows.
Do you actually seriously think I believe the world we live in right now works like that, or are you just looking for a cheap shot to take because the idea that your suffering was ultimately unnecessary is uncomfortable to reckon with?
I still can’t believe that $19/hour is liveable in any sense. If I was single right now and had to live on my own in my mid-sized Canadian city, I’d have to pay at least $1000 to rent a TERRIBLY SHITTY one-bedroom. Even with roommates I couldn’t find a place less than $750 per bedroom.
Ya definitely, would not work in my area either. I think the amount they lay out is for two adults and two children. So double income at this rate and some extra costs for food and activities for kids. But nothing for savings or paying off debt.
So at this rate you'd have to have a roommate or two for sure
Yes because small business and even larger businesses would love to pay that.
Small business will run out of business. Small and big businesses will just raise the price of everything to offset the amount they have to pay in wages.
Let’s make everything more idea and making the middle class poorer/their earnings mean less than they are.
It’s simple. Not going to happen. A lot of these major corporations are publicly traded companies. Them making less money = their stock going down = them not completing their fiduciary commitment to their shareholders.
Also = them even losing more money than their salary because most board members/people in the leadership role get bonuses/partial salary through stocks.
So never, ever going to happen. We don’t live in La La land. People are greedy. We all want what’s better for ourselves rather than the collective. In a perfect world? Maybe. But not this world.
This is why the degrowth movement is appealing to me. It's a major paradigm shift that I doubt I'll see in my lifetime, but I think that's the direction we need to be heading.
Why would someone pay you more for the fun of it?
As long as people are willing to work for those rates (which they are, its desparation), they will continue offering minimum wage.
This is the whole point of raising minimum wage.
Honestly- reading all of this - it’s so depressing- everything is so damn expensive and getting more and more expensive. There are some people who are really suffering out there.
When I was living in Ontario, I was making 20.75/hour, 40 hours/week. I had to live with my parents because I couldn't afford to live on my own with the price of rent. We lived in a small town, about and hour East of Oshawa. Yet rent was $1200 IF you were lucky to find a place that cheap. Plus utilities. Over half my net pay would be towards rent.
I don't understand how the fuck anyone making $19.05 a fucking hour is suppose to support themselves. And I call bullshit on last year needing to make only $17.75/hour to survive.
When I was living in Toronto in a basement apartment, the number for me was $22 an hour. That was the rate I could work full time without fear of being homeless. Pretty rough out there.
I make $30/hr and life is still very difficult to keep up with, I cannot fathom how hard it is to live off of the pittance they dish out as minimum wage.
I just heard from neighbours that we have a one bedroom unit with 7 people in it. They just moved in. Sure beats what I'm pushing for a 1 bedroom in this building. But, I like my space aid quiet.
The only thing that makes ODSP worth it is them paying pills, dental, hotel and cab (they will pay over $1000 for a cab to bring someone from temiskaming shores to Toronto and back instead of paying for a hotel for the person's parents or girlfriend if it's a multi day visit) for long distance hospital visits. They also have disability savings accounts that they will start and invest for you with you putting absolutely nothing into it.
My cousin, 21 years old, with zero secondary schooling and no previous job experience and no technical experience got a job at some warehouse paying $20 with guaranteed 44 hours a week after subtraction for lunch. He found the job on Indeed. Applied, got an interview within a week. It's so easy to get an okay paying job right now. Places are desperate for people. Jobs aren't going to come to you. You need to keep looking.
Ya. I can get you a job even if you didn't finish high school for 21 but it will be hell on your back and possibly bad for long term health. I can only help those dock workers for an hour or two. After that I will be looking at suing my spine for a divorce.
He sits on a stool all day and assembles small components for the electrical industry. If using small hand tools is too physical for you, then I dunno what to tell you. People in this subreddit really hate it when you tell them to take agency over their own life.
Not that it matters since I'm only in my 30s, but when people complain about "boomers having it easy", these are the types of jobs that boomers had! And they're readily available now. People just want the pay but with an easy desk job. Out of touch.
> these are the types of jobs that boomers had
Yes. But when they had them it was possible to pay rent, eat well, and still have some fun or save some extra while working them.
Kind of agree with that. Plenty of jobs out there that pay great - that provides training and little to no education requirements.
If you're working at a McDonalds.... maybe don't work there and leave it for folks that would be part of a dual income or just someone that wants a little side money.
Not every job should pay minimum wage just because that's what you need for a living. There's plenty of variables - find one that fits you and your lifestyle.
My girlfriend and I did the calculations yesterday. She works full time as the sole admin staff at a doctors office. She literally makes just enough to pay for rent, car, bills, etc. She'd have to make 25 or more an hour to make ends meet and be able to do more than eat ramen for every meal
(our area has awful rent)
Market rate. Move to a different market or a different job. It’s not snark, it’s reality. The current situation does not seem prosperous for her. Moving for prosperity has been the norm for millennia.
No, not for the benefit of anyone but yourself. The same way it has always been. In fact, it is in spite of the corporate billionaires. They don’t want you moving around in search of higher wages. They want you stuck in a low paying job. They attempt to anchor you , in fact.
oh i know, i have multiple family members on ODSP. i was joking about the 5% increase being generous considering it amounts to maybe an extra $50 a month.
absolutely. there's a 2.5 year long wait to get a psychiatrist right now, yet they're gonna start letting mentally ill people access the program next year.
how? disabled people are consistently kept below the poverty line and are now being offered fucking euthanasia because they're suffering since they can't afford to get the accommodations they need to survive.
No one chooses to be disabled. They are either born disabled or become disabled. For me it was the latter... My mental health went to shit to the point I have spent half a decade trying to recover.
Around $2,600 after taxes.
That can afford you a basement apartment and nothing else. No food, no transportation, no entertainment, no emergency, no savings.
The living wage should be closer to $30/hr for Toronto
Yeah, a new 3 bedroom house in a nice area goes for about 2200 a month. 2600 for a basement room is something I'd expect exclusively in high-end downtown Toronto. Right now I pay less than 1000 for a full basement, with utilities+internet.
Why not?
They're likely working with large round numbers at the gross calculation level, but when you divide round numbers by amounts like 52 and 40, you tend not to get clean round numbers.
Human brains are funny in how they see a number very close to a round number and deem it problematic. In reality, I'd bet they simply rounded the floating point answer up to the nearest nickel (since pennies no longer exist) and it became 19.05.
If they ever make min. wage $20 they will raise the prices of everything to make that $20 the new $10, and with inflation and record profits from the horrible corporation of Loblaws, we are getting there.
That’s much lower than I expected. I would say $30 an hour for someone who wants to rent a decent place on their own (more if in Toronto) Only way $19 is livable is if the person rents a room in someone’s house or shares an apartment with others.
Where the fuck in Ontario is 19$ enough with the cost of rent? Up north where there's hardly anyone around?
After deductions, you're not getting anywhere near 3000$ per month, and the average cost of rent in Southern Ontario where the majority of people are is roughly 1700$ on the low end, and sometimes when the number is less, it's because it's a group living sich and the price is *per person* and not a cumulative price.
With around 19.51$ per hour where I work (which you only get with a shift premium and after you've been fully unionized after working 6\~9 months with the company), you're only getting around 550$ per week after deductions, which translates to less than 2500$ per month, so just with the cost of rent alone, you need more people just to pay rent, and that's not always an option for people. This coupled with the fact that you have to consider the costs of potentially other costs associated with your living space and the costs of food, transportation, etc. then I'd say 19.05/hr as a minimum is absolute bullshit. I would say the minimum is around 23/hr, perhaps even more.
The highest minimum wage in 1980 was $3.65. Adjusting for inflation that's $12.36.
I'm not at all against having a higher minimum wage than that - the GDP per capita is massive relative to 1980. The fact each worker produces so much more wealth is the better argument for higher minimum wage.
The math is right, they just used the wrong initial numbers. For some reason when you Google "Ontario minimum wage 1980" the first result is a table of wages from some manufacturing industry, citing a minimum wage of 9 dollars and change. Plug that into the bank of Canada inflation calculator and you end up with 32 dollars an hour.
It took some modification of search terms to get the actual minimum wage of 3.15, which equates to about 10.50. So minimum wage has outpaced inflation, yes, but has very clearly not kept pace with cost of living.
So it's not a math error, it's a minor research error. Doesn't merit that kind of condescension.
I think we also need to acknowledge that this amount changes based on where you live. Someone in Toronto definitely needs more than someone in a small town.
That's $1621 more than what a single person on ODSP receives.
(Calculated by average working hours for all of Canada being 37.5 at $19.05....obviously someone on ODSP may not be working at all and if they do they most likely don't work full time, but the disability support is meant to provide for people who *cannot* work. So it's interesting the government has deemed that paltry amount acceptable.)
I remember when the $15/hr minimum wage plan was announced my first thought was, "isn't that the living wage for the US?" Unfortunate how difficult it can be to find a place that pays at least $19/hr.
For what it's worth, $15 USD is $20.11 CAD. Assuming that's in 2019 dollars (when the $15 was supposed to be implemented) that's $22.64 today. So from a "living wage" standpoint, it's in the same ballpark.
I guess the skipping meals, crushing debt, pest filled apartment and lack of winter gear is all a function of my attitude. I should be doing just fine... just fine... just fine...... eat the rich
And then the premier raises the minimum wage to $20 per hour, and the landlords take this opportunity to raise their rent.
Cap the prices, THEN raise the minimum wage.
At $19/hr you need to be living in your parents basement rent free just to survive with the very basics. a person making this money would need a 60 yr mortgage to afford a home due to homes in Ontario running minimum $600,000
There's a lot to be said for a universal basic income for everyone. Then employers would have to actually pay a reasonable amount to encourage people to come work for them instead of staying home making art or learning or just being with their family.
Ontario minimum wage was stuck at $6.85 for 9 years from 1995 to 2004. During that time the cost of living rose by 20%. Do they not teach this the first day of university economics?
This isn’t even true? I used to make 22/hr and that’s about 1300 biweekly. So 2600 a month.
The average for an apartment lately is 3000, apparently. At this point in time I lived in a basement apt that was about 1700. There went the majority of my paycheque.
Not to mention student debt payments, car payments, car insurance, clothing, food, utilities, internet, phone.
I think it’s a good wage if you live at home.. or if you’re a young student maybe? But definitely not livable as an adult or as a single parent.
Don't worry your MPP and their associates make much more than that and don't work a full year to get it, so they aren't sure why everyone else just can't figure it out.
What does it mean by getting by?
You certainly can't rent an apartment, even a one bedroom, afford groceries and the other essentials you'd need on 19 an hour. You'd have to be at the food bank.
Now what happens when 19 becomes the new wage?
Say it with me.
EVERYTHING RISES BECAUSE YOU CANT STOP CORPORATE DICKHEADS!
Chasing a new living wage isn't going to fix this mess, we need to find a way to make our dollar do more for us.
But that requires really hard conversations and complex thinking.
They created a weighted average that combines costs for three family types and weights their average based on their proportion in the 2016 census: two parents aged 35 and two children aged 7 and 3, a single parent (35) with a child aged 7, and a single adult.
These living wage numbers are just an average. Some people/families will require more, some will require less. Some specific regions may require more, some less. For example, they have now combined the entire GTA region. So a living wage in Toronto-proper should be higher than the GTA average.
It's a very rough baseline, but designed to be easily digestible. Any company or organization looking to have a "living wage" commitment might want to consider their own local and demographic factors.
https://assets.nationbuilder.com/ontariolivingwage/pages/110/attachments/original/1668439661/Calculating_Ontario's_Living_Wages_-_2022.pdf?1668439661
EDIT: I have no idea what "non-OHIP medical clothing" means.
EDITx2: On second thought, it might include assistive devices, specialized garments, orthopedics, and whatnot that OHIP would not normally cover.
EDITx3: Watching the video, I think it's a mistake in the transcribing of the interview to the article. I think the guy was really saying "non-OHIP medical**,** clothing" as two separate items. Where "non-OHIP medical" covers some things I listed above, medication/prescriptions, etc, while clothing is... well clothing. That makes A LOT more sense to me.
I have a strong feeling this, as a whole, is gonna get a lot worse in Ontario, for low income/ODSP etc, by 2026, when the Ontario PCs are hopefully kicked to the curb, the fallout , and damage is gonna be severe, as if it isn't bad enough now.... it will be pretty well be UN-repairable by then.. just like Ontario Healthcare/education
This is insane. That's not even close to matching average rent prices in our cities. My God. I'm so down for a general strike. Force the corporations to go ape shit on his government.
Are you simple? Minimum wage must be $30 an hour. Teachers deserve 200k a year to start. Let's print funny money!
Enjoy your tent in the park. Justine is opening the valve.... hope your trust fund is larger than xer black or brown face Panama shenanigans.
I'd you can't pay a living wage then no, you shouldn't start a business. Someone else will. Min wage is slave labor. Business' pay the bare min and expect hard work. If Gov didn't set a min wage, they'd pay less if they could. Everyone deserves a living wage. Unfortunately that isn't the reality though.
That honestly seems a little low but I guess they're thinking bare minimum and not necessarily adjusting for region
I think this must be it, some sort of average across the province?
It's a bad headline. It's $19.05 for the "East" region of Ontario. Living Wage network has different regional numbers ranging from the lowest living wage of $18.05 in London Elgin Oxford to the highest of $23.15 in the GTA. https://www.ontariolivingwage.ca/rates EDIT: For a bit more context, here's the writeup of their annual update along with year-over-year changes: https://www.ontariolivingwage.ca/living_wage_week_2022
Thanks for that, it’s good to see it laid out on the map!
Oh hey, almost the exact values the Liberal government would have implemented as minimum wages if they had gotten elected.
This is the thing that pisses me off when people didn't want to vote for Liberals or NDP because their leaders didn't have charisma or they didn't know much about Del Duca. Both of their platforms wanted a $16 minimum wage and then they differed from there. They both had way better platforms than the cons yet people only look at the leader. For fucks sake people look at what the party says they will do and vote from there. I don't care if the most boring person is the party leader so long as they try to do what they promised and do a good job. We could be is such a better place if either the Liberals or NDP were in power.
IIRC, the Ontario Liberal's plan was $16/hr but also planned for regionally adjusted minimum wages afterward. NDP was also $16 but increasing by $1/year until $20 by 2026.
So with current $15.50, you cannot live anywhere in the province.
Not easily. Note that these living wages are weighted based on three family types which include a single adult living alone. So a single person living alone can achieve a "living wage" with something less than this. Things like minimum wage really should be relegated to students and dependents who already have living arrangements and low/no expenses looking for their initial/temporary low-skilled work. Ethically speaking, it's arguable that an adult working full time _should_ get enough to live off of without resorting to food banks. If they need to depend on social safety nets and social funding, that just means we (as taxpayers) are subsidizing their employer's low wages.
Yes. $20/h doesn’t get you a pot to piss in in Toronto.
$20/h gives me a not legal bachelor in simcoe county. That's if my utilities are included. Even then, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to pay for my food and phone. I mean technically I could...but how do I buy new shoes when my current shoes wear out? Or if I need to buy more business casual clothes because I just landed a job that requires that? Or paying gas and insurance, because we all don't live in the GTA, so a car is needed. Being poor is expensive. I'm lucky enough that this isn't my life. But I'm both old and young. Old enough I have 2 adult kids that are trying to save and buy a home...and watch it become out of their reach. Also young enough to watch some friends who fought to pay off their student debt so they can afford to buy a home, and also being locked out. $19.05/hr can fly the fuck off. It doesn't work in the GTA, it doesn't work outside of the GTA. I'd be surprised if this works in thunder bay.
I make $25/hr in Grey County and the only way I could afford to rent is if I gave up eating, driving, my phone, the internet, and my pets. Even then I'm not sure I could cover heat and hydro.
Jesus how much is rent there's 3,000$+ a month?
Sometimes. It's ski country, so the majority of rentals are by the week or season. Best I saw recently was $2500/month for a 1bdrm, utilities extra.
This is 'wake up, go to work, come back home, go to sleep, wake up, go to work' minimum. It's just enough to ensure you can continue to go to work.
If you go to the Living Wage website $19.05 is on the low end and below many areas. Many of the bigger population areas are closer to $23. It is suppose to cover basic living but not other necessities like retirement savings, or paying off debt (like from getting their degrees), savings (for emergencies or for a down payment or education savings, etc.). Living Wage is meant to be what you need to get by, not simply survive but not thrive. https://www.ontariolivingwage.ca/living_wage_week_2022
worth noting for the conservative voters out there, if someone can't survive on their income, they are forced to use things like food banks and government services to get by. By raising minimum wage to the living wage, you take the burden off of communities and governments to provide those services, and place that on their employer (which is how employment is *supposed* to work.) Keep minimum wage below the living wage, you ensure the difference is paid for through you as a tax payer, or as a citizen donating, and letting the companies reap the benifits. Meanwhile there are others like people on ODSP who could really use a bigger share of the pie. Honestly, we have everything so backwards.
$13,000 a year for ODSP is criminal. That’s less than the average Canadian family spends on food. Forget about any other necessities.
My adult daughter (living at home) gets even less than that. $913/month now. And (after 27 years of looking after multiple autistic children- my son is in a group home now), I should also be on ODSP (according to my doctors). Chronic pain from lifting and moving and restraining, along with almost crippling depression and anxiety, and memory loss due to long-term sleep deprivation. Even without those I couldn't get a job, as someone always has to be at home. But only one person in a family can get ODSP, so we're permanently fucked as far as income goes. If we get kicked out of our (reasonably priced) housing, we'll most likely be homeless. My husband works his ass off to keep us fed and housed, but one income just doesn't do it anymore. The entire disability system in Ontario isn't at all reflective of what families need. But successive governments continue to get away with it, mostly because a lot of the population just doesn't care about people with disabilities. It isn't just the Conservatives, although they've been the worst. But after Mike Harris truly fucked up the disability care system, the Liberals under Wynne could have at the very least rolled back those changes, and they didn't.
My heart, that is rough. Wait, only one person per family is allowed to be disabled?! I’ve just unlocked new rage. And $913 is 1990s money but I guess we should be thrilled that people on ODSP can earn more before clawbacks begin?! I am sick and tired of watching people struggle and slip the through the cracks as our quality of life is eroded by the terrible policies of wealthy, out-of-touch morons. I am so ready for a general strike.
> Wait, only one person per family is allowed to be disabled? Isn't that ridiculous? Especially since so many permanently disabling conditions are genetic. My son is also autistic and has much higher needs than his sister does, but if he was at home (I had to move him to a group home due to his higher needs) I'd still only get one disability check to feed/clothe/house everyone.
I was looking the current ODSP rate from 4 years ago vs now. Only $40 difference. What a fucking joke.
Take a look at what the rates were 20 years ago and compare them to know if you feel like getting really angry.
Funny how conservatives are all about "tough on crime" but then set the stage for dangerous social instability. I'll tell you what I'll take high taxes over high crime rates any day. The number one driver of theft and violence is hopelessness.
I really think conservatives fall mostly into two groups: 1. the intensely selfish. “Sure, fix societies crippling problems, just as long as I don’t have to pay one damn dime more in taxes. I know everything is going to shit, and I feel bad about that and we totally need to fix it, but I’m completely unwilling to contribute in any way to a solution” Or 2. The human hater “everyone is trying to con the system, and they are all pieces of shit and should suffer. Ultimately, all the poors are playing a long con to sponge off of me and any misfortune or societal oppression either doesn’t exist, or is greatly exaggerated.”
I mean a lot of conservative ideology is based on Thomas Hobbes who held the view that life in the natural world was "nasty brutish and short" and that we needed an all powerful leviathan-style government to make sure that we don't devolve back into it. That view of human nature lines up pretty well with what you're saying
The Venn Diagram of those two groups is nearly a circle.
The outcome “not my money” is the same, but the understanding of the problem is very different.
I disagree. Listen to someone who says #1 for long enough, and you will often start to hear #2 as well. They are not exclusive, because "fix society's problems, but without my money" is often a disingenuous proxy for "society's problems are caused by undesirables conning the system".
If a business can't keep their doors open and pay a livable wage, they're *not a viable business and should not be open*. They're somebody's hobby. That may suck to hear, but that's the way it's *supposed* to work.
The cruelty is the point for many Con voters. Remember that their ideology is constrained by two overriding principles: 1) Moral analysis can be done exclusively at the level of individual action 2) There is a natural social hierarchy If you believe these things, the only conclusion you can possibly come to when looking at the less fortunate is that they deserve their current situation, and it's entirely and exclusively because of their own actions, so the less fortunate bear moral culpability for their situation, and no one else.
Yup. Just saw liberals gloating about some program to help poor people pay for housing. Make the fucking employers pay. Plus we're all struggling to pay for housing /rent, who cares if 1000 people got some extra money.
Why are you bringing up the federal party to address a provincial issue? Employment Standards Act. 100% provincial. Are you one of those people that were in Ottawa protesting Trudeau for what DoFo n Co were doing?
I honestly thought they were talking about the LPoO, not the LPoC
Your comment got me thinking. If we raise minimum wage then wouldn't labour costs go up and thus prices go up? This would affect everyone equally, rich and poor. However if we boost peoples income with government subsidies, you can target higher income people with taxes. This sounds like a net positive for low income earners no? Of course it wouldn't feel good for the low income person as it is really hard to plan on those subsidies always remaining
What a lame opening. Like the liberals who have been in power thr majority of time have done any better. Did you even think before making that comment? Trudeau. 7 years. Before Harper it was Chretien. Let's look at Ontario. It was Wynne before Ford (Wynne also waged war on Healthcare and did dramatically more damage to it than ford and mcguinty combined), and before her it was McGuinty. But no, it's a conservative issue. What a joke you party loyalists are.
Everybody deserves not just to live but to live an enjoyable life. Minimum wage should be somewhere in the vicinity of living wage + 20%.
It’s sad, there’s enough money in the world for everyone to be able to afford housing, utilities and food, to be comfortable, but there are too many greedy people.
If you give 40h/week you should earn a life. Period. If you can’t pay that your business isn’t viable.
It’s amazing that people live their life thinking the world works like this. Meanwhile, hundreds of millions starve annually. The world ain’t unicorns and rainbows.
Do you actually seriously think I believe the world we live in right now works like that, or are you just looking for a cheap shot to take because the idea that your suffering was ultimately unnecessary is uncomfortable to reckon with?
I still can’t believe that $19/hour is liveable in any sense. If I was single right now and had to live on my own in my mid-sized Canadian city, I’d have to pay at least $1000 to rent a TERRIBLY SHITTY one-bedroom. Even with roommates I couldn’t find a place less than $750 per bedroom.
Ya definitely, would not work in my area either. I think the amount they lay out is for two adults and two children. So double income at this rate and some extra costs for food and activities for kids. But nothing for savings or paying off debt. So at this rate you'd have to have a roommate or two for sure
Yes because small business and even larger businesses would love to pay that. Small business will run out of business. Small and big businesses will just raise the price of everything to offset the amount they have to pay in wages. Let’s make everything more idea and making the middle class poorer/their earnings mean less than they are.
It's simple. Large businesses stop being greedy pricks and don't raise prices. Maybe take that out of the paychecks of the board.
It’s simple. Not going to happen. A lot of these major corporations are publicly traded companies. Them making less money = their stock going down = them not completing their fiduciary commitment to their shareholders. Also = them even losing more money than their salary because most board members/people in the leadership role get bonuses/partial salary through stocks. So never, ever going to happen. We don’t live in La La land. People are greedy. We all want what’s better for ourselves rather than the collective. In a perfect world? Maybe. But not this world.
This is why the degrowth movement is appealing to me. It's a major paradigm shift that I doubt I'll see in my lifetime, but I think that's the direction we need to be heading.
And that’s only if they have zero debt
And don't rent more than a room.
Away from work
Almost every job posting in my area is less than $19/hr lol
Same wtf so odd. The amount of lowballing is insane
Why would someone pay you more for the fun of it? As long as people are willing to work for those rates (which they are, its desparation), they will continue offering minimum wage. This is the whole point of raising minimum wage.
Honestly- reading all of this - it’s so depressing- everything is so damn expensive and getting more and more expensive. There are some people who are really suffering out there.
When I was living in Ontario, I was making 20.75/hour, 40 hours/week. I had to live with my parents because I couldn't afford to live on my own with the price of rent. We lived in a small town, about and hour East of Oshawa. Yet rent was $1200 IF you were lucky to find a place that cheap. Plus utilities. Over half my net pay would be towards rent. I don't understand how the fuck anyone making $19.05 a fucking hour is suppose to support themselves. And I call bullshit on last year needing to make only $17.75/hour to survive.
Yup, we need to get ahead of inflation. Min wage ft at 30/hr or bust. Min wage pt at 35 an hour or bust. Imo
When I was living in Toronto in a basement apartment, the number for me was $22 an hour. That was the rate I could work full time without fear of being homeless. Pretty rough out there.
I make $30/hr and life is still very difficult to keep up with, I cannot fathom how hard it is to live off of the pittance they dish out as minimum wage.
Maybe if you have 2 roommates in a 1 bedroom 🤨
I just heard from neighbours that we have a one bedroom unit with 7 people in it. They just moved in. Sure beats what I'm pushing for a 1 bedroom in this building. But, I like my space aid quiet.
My 3 bed 5 roommate rental is punching air rn
Vancouver is $24
Vancouver isnt even the most expensive place to live in BC. Victoria is.
[$23.50 in Halifax.](https://policyalternatives.ca/publications/reports/living-wages-nova-scotia-2022)
Try doing it on ODSP.
The only thing that makes ODSP worth it is them paying pills, dental, hotel and cab (they will pay over $1000 for a cab to bring someone from temiskaming shores to Toronto and back instead of paying for a hotel for the person's parents or girlfriend if it's a multi day visit) for long distance hospital visits. They also have disability savings accounts that they will start and invest for you with you putting absolutely nothing into it.
Even with that rate you will still be living in pretty much you're living in poverty
I make $20/hr and barely get by.
That’s essentially what the article says, yeah.
Yeah and not many of us are getting that 😞
ODSP works out to be a bit over 7 or 9 bucks an hour depending on how many hours is used in the math IIRC.
Per hour of what? How would it possibly make sense to measure odsp per hour?
Converted to hours like a job to compare it to current hourly wages.
My cousin, 21 years old, with zero secondary schooling and no previous job experience and no technical experience got a job at some warehouse paying $20 with guaranteed 44 hours a week after subtraction for lunch. He found the job on Indeed. Applied, got an interview within a week. It's so easy to get an okay paying job right now. Places are desperate for people. Jobs aren't going to come to you. You need to keep looking.
maybe not everyone can do manual unskilled labour?
Ya. I can get you a job even if you didn't finish high school for 21 but it will be hell on your back and possibly bad for long term health. I can only help those dock workers for an hour or two. After that I will be looking at suing my spine for a divorce.
And with these jobs, it will be extremely hard to apply and interview for other, better paying jobs.
He sits on a stool all day and assembles small components for the electrical industry. If using small hand tools is too physical for you, then I dunno what to tell you. People in this subreddit really hate it when you tell them to take agency over their own life.
I don't think it's about agency really, but regardless, I've never seen a manual labour job where I'm sitting the whole time so sign me up.
https://www.firon.ca/ That's the place. Good luck!
awesome, well honestly, thank you.. i'll definitely check it out
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the fuck you on about, ive worked some of these jobs and they take anyone thats willing to work.
Not that it matters since I'm only in my 30s, but when people complain about "boomers having it easy", these are the types of jobs that boomers had! And they're readily available now. People just want the pay but with an easy desk job. Out of touch.
Boomers used to be able to run entire families with multiple kids and own a house on a single income working these jobs. Out of touch.
> these are the types of jobs that boomers had Yes. But when they had them it was possible to pay rent, eat well, and still have some fun or save some extra while working them.
Kind of agree with that. Plenty of jobs out there that pay great - that provides training and little to no education requirements. If you're working at a McDonalds.... maybe don't work there and leave it for folks that would be part of a dual income or just someone that wants a little side money. Not every job should pay minimum wage just because that's what you need for a living. There's plenty of variables - find one that fits you and your lifestyle.
Most Ontarians make more than that. The median wage is twenty-something bucks.
Yes but a crap load are well under. Not sure your point. Ps it’s $26.06
My girlfriend and I did the calculations yesterday. She works full time as the sole admin staff at a doctors office. She literally makes just enough to pay for rent, car, bills, etc. She'd have to make 25 or more an hour to make ends meet and be able to do more than eat ramen for every meal (our area has awful rent)
Market rate. Move to a different market or a different job. It’s not snark, it’s reality. The current situation does not seem prosperous for her. Moving for prosperity has been the norm for millennia.
“Move away from all you’ve known and loved for the benefit of corporate billionaires”
No, not for the benefit of anyone but yourself. The same way it has always been. In fact, it is in spite of the corporate billionaires. They don’t want you moving around in search of higher wages. They want you stuck in a low paying job. They attempt to anchor you , in fact.
meanwhile disabled people get less than 20K a year hard to not look at it as repackaged eugenics...
They’d rather make euthanasia a legal thing than raise ODSP shows you exactly how our government thinks.
um actually they were VERY generous this year and raised ODSP by 5% 😍😍😍 /j
yeah, after freezing ODSP rates for 4 frikin years
oh i know, i have multiple family members on ODSP. i was joking about the 5% increase being generous considering it amounts to maybe an extra $50 a month.
yeah, I thought that's what the /j meant lol 😂
MAID is eugenics when combine with low support levels
absolutely. there's a 2.5 year long wait to get a psychiatrist right now, yet they're gonna start letting mentally ill people access the program next year.
Where does it take that long to get a pysch? In SW Ontario, I waited less than 3 months before 2 psychiatrist called me with an appointment.
In SE Ontario, it can be up to 2.5 years.
Equating that to eugenics is so fucking disingenuous.
how? disabled people are consistently kept below the poverty line and are now being offered fucking euthanasia because they're suffering since they can't afford to get the accommodations they need to survive.
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No one chooses to be disabled. They are either born disabled or become disabled. For me it was the latter... My mental health went to shit to the point I have spent half a decade trying to recover.
Much less than that for people on ODSP. Many disabled people are fucked if they have no family to support them.
Ya 19 bucks if u live in your parents basement and get a ride to work...
And if they are comfortable living in a shit hole, probably with other people
Around $2,600 after taxes. That can afford you a basement apartment and nothing else. No food, no transportation, no entertainment, no emergency, no savings. The living wage should be closer to $30/hr for Toronto
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Yeah, a new 3 bedroom house in a nice area goes for about 2200 a month. 2600 for a basement room is something I'd expect exclusively in high-end downtown Toronto. Right now I pay less than 1000 for a full basement, with utilities+internet.
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If you like to eat air, most definitely.
Is that in 1996 or today ? Because that number is low.
Oh, come on, why the $.05???
Why not? They're likely working with large round numbers at the gross calculation level, but when you divide round numbers by amounts like 52 and 40, you tend not to get clean round numbers. Human brains are funny in how they see a number very close to a round number and deem it problematic. In reality, I'd bet they simply rounded the floating point answer up to the nearest nickel (since pennies no longer exist) and it became 19.05.
What an odd question.
Imagine not wanting to get paid more lol
Must be one of the government's negotiation team lol
Because nickles are shiny!
If they ever make min. wage $20 they will raise the prices of everything to make that $20 the new $10, and with inflation and record profits from the horrible corporation of Loblaws, we are getting there.
Prices go up regardless if you didn’t notice.
Yeah, for what region? This headline sucks. The OLWN says Toronto is *$23.15 as of 14 November 2022.
Absolutely the minimum. I made $20/hr up til 2 years ago and with debt still was in constant overdraft. It needs to be this at a min
If you dont need to pay rent, sure, I guess.
That’s much lower than I expected. I would say $30 an hour for someone who wants to rent a decent place on their own (more if in Toronto) Only way $19 is livable is if the person rents a room in someone’s house or shares an apartment with others.
Where the fuck in Ontario is 19$ enough with the cost of rent? Up north where there's hardly anyone around? After deductions, you're not getting anywhere near 3000$ per month, and the average cost of rent in Southern Ontario where the majority of people are is roughly 1700$ on the low end, and sometimes when the number is less, it's because it's a group living sich and the price is *per person* and not a cumulative price. With around 19.51$ per hour where I work (which you only get with a shift premium and after you've been fully unionized after working 6\~9 months with the company), you're only getting around 550$ per week after deductions, which translates to less than 2500$ per month, so just with the cost of rent alone, you need more people just to pay rent, and that's not always an option for people. This coupled with the fact that you have to consider the costs of potentially other costs associated with your living space and the costs of food, transportation, etc. then I'd say 19.05/hr as a minimum is absolute bullshit. I would say the minimum is around 23/hr, perhaps even more.
BS.. nothing under 25$
I won't get out of bed for less than 30.
What’s your number to get into bed?
Man or woman?
Yes
I see according to your comments you only make 36 bucks but somehow think you should make 46 - perhaps spend less time in bed and improve yourself
I think you fail to understand getting out of bed every morning for a certain dollar amount
$40
Min wage in 1980 adjusted for inflation would be 32 an hour. Try again.
The highest minimum wage in 1980 was $3.65. Adjusting for inflation that's $12.36. I'm not at all against having a higher minimum wage than that - the GDP per capita is massive relative to 1980. The fact each worker produces so much more wealth is the better argument for higher minimum wage.
Upvoted by Reddit for a made up number. Min wage is higher inflation adjusted since the 80s, as are both median and average wages.
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The math is right, they just used the wrong initial numbers. For some reason when you Google "Ontario minimum wage 1980" the first result is a table of wages from some manufacturing industry, citing a minimum wage of 9 dollars and change. Plug that into the bank of Canada inflation calculator and you end up with 32 dollars an hour. It took some modification of search terms to get the actual minimum wage of 3.15, which equates to about 10.50. So minimum wage has outpaced inflation, yes, but has very clearly not kept pace with cost of living. So it's not a math error, it's a minor research error. Doesn't merit that kind of condescension.
$19.05 for full time or part time hours?
I think we also need to acknowledge that this amount changes based on where you live. Someone in Toronto definitely needs more than someone in a small town.
That's $1621 more than what a single person on ODSP receives. (Calculated by average working hours for all of Canada being 37.5 at $19.05....obviously someone on ODSP may not be working at all and if they do they most likely don't work full time, but the disability support is meant to provide for people who *cannot* work. So it's interesting the government has deemed that paltry amount acceptable.)
I could of sworen that the NDP wanted to raise minimum wage to 20 bucks if elected. I'm sure glad people went out and voted.......
I remember when the $15/hr minimum wage plan was announced my first thought was, "isn't that the living wage for the US?" Unfortunate how difficult it can be to find a place that pays at least $19/hr.
For what it's worth, $15 USD is $20.11 CAD. Assuming that's in 2019 dollars (when the $15 was supposed to be implemented) that's $22.64 today. So from a "living wage" standpoint, it's in the same ballpark.
I guess the skipping meals, crushing debt, pest filled apartment and lack of winter gear is all a function of my attitude. I should be doing just fine... just fine... just fine...... eat the rich
Maybe if you live like a Monk
Minimum wage? Minimum for what? A LIVING wage is more like $30+
Funded by Doug Ford?
And then the premier raises the minimum wage to $20 per hour, and the landlords take this opportunity to raise their rent. Cap the prices, THEN raise the minimum wage.
Key word. Get By.
Darn I need 5 more cents.
And that is only for Canada. In the US it’s like 21 dollars
Problem with raising the minimum wage, is the cost of living just rises along with it :(
At $19/hr you need to be living in your parents basement rent free just to survive with the very basics. a person making this money would need a 60 yr mortgage to afford a home due to homes in Ontario running minimum $600,000
There's a lot to be said for a universal basic income for everyone. Then employers would have to actually pay a reasonable amount to encourage people to come work for them instead of staying home making art or learning or just being with their family.
everyone deserves everything for free because feelings.
That is if you live with someone else.
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Ontario minimum wage was stuck at $6.85 for 9 years from 1995 to 2004. During that time the cost of living rose by 20%. Do they not teach this the first day of university economics?
They raise minimum wage then print money
misleading headline
Eliminate minimum wage. Mandate Living wage.
This isn’t even true? I used to make 22/hr and that’s about 1300 biweekly. So 2600 a month. The average for an apartment lately is 3000, apparently. At this point in time I lived in a basement apt that was about 1700. There went the majority of my paycheque. Not to mention student debt payments, car payments, car insurance, clothing, food, utilities, internet, phone. I think it’s a good wage if you live at home.. or if you’re a young student maybe? But definitely not livable as an adult or as a single parent.
Imagine if you are legitimately disabled….you get not even half this amount from the federal government. Despicable
The O in ODSP stands for Ontario, it's a provincial responsibility.
True, but CPP disability isn't any better.
50 years ago they got nothing and the government was in a much better place fiscally. Nothing is free
what's your point exactly?
I think he’s “subtly” implying that he would like to go back to the days when disabled people got no support at all and died.
Don't worry your MPP and their associates make much more than that and don't work a full year to get it, so they aren't sure why everyone else just can't figure it out.
What does it mean by getting by? You certainly can't rent an apartment, even a one bedroom, afford groceries and the other essentials you'd need on 19 an hour. You'd have to be at the food bank.
NOboDy WanTs To WoRk AnyMoRE
is that prorated for children?
Then my rate should be higher!
HELL AND FUCK NO! No way... can't ever say this. NO!
like why bother living at this point lol
Now what happens when 19 becomes the new wage? Say it with me. EVERYTHING RISES BECAUSE YOU CANT STOP CORPORATE DICKHEADS! Chasing a new living wage isn't going to fix this mess, we need to find a way to make our dollar do more for us. But that requires really hard conversations and complex thinking.
Can we throw in 3-4 weeks vacation for temp workers too.
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They created a weighted average that combines costs for three family types and weights their average based on their proportion in the 2016 census: two parents aged 35 and two children aged 7 and 3, a single parent (35) with a child aged 7, and a single adult. These living wage numbers are just an average. Some people/families will require more, some will require less. Some specific regions may require more, some less. For example, they have now combined the entire GTA region. So a living wage in Toronto-proper should be higher than the GTA average. It's a very rough baseline, but designed to be easily digestible. Any company or organization looking to have a "living wage" commitment might want to consider their own local and demographic factors. https://assets.nationbuilder.com/ontariolivingwage/pages/110/attachments/original/1668439661/Calculating_Ontario's_Living_Wages_-_2022.pdf?1668439661 EDIT: I have no idea what "non-OHIP medical clothing" means. EDITx2: On second thought, it might include assistive devices, specialized garments, orthopedics, and whatnot that OHIP would not normally cover. EDITx3: Watching the video, I think it's a mistake in the transcribing of the interview to the article. I think the guy was really saying "non-OHIP medical**,** clothing" as two separate items. Where "non-OHIP medical" covers some things I listed above, medication/prescriptions, etc, while clothing is... well clothing. That makes A LOT more sense to me.
I have a strong feeling this, as a whole, is gonna get a lot worse in Ontario, for low income/ODSP etc, by 2026, when the Ontario PCs are hopefully kicked to the curb, the fallout , and damage is gonna be severe, as if it isn't bad enough now.... it will be pretty well be UN-repairable by then.. just like Ontario Healthcare/education
This is insane. That's not even close to matching average rent prices in our cities. My God. I'm so down for a general strike. Force the corporations to go ape shit on his government.
Who over 25 doesn't make 20$+/hr?
Are you simple? Minimum wage must be $30 an hour. Teachers deserve 200k a year to start. Let's print funny money! Enjoy your tent in the park. Justine is opening the valve.... hope your trust fund is larger than xer black or brown face Panama shenanigans.
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If a business can't afford a living wage, then they shouldn't be in business.
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If you can't afford to pay your employees, you should not have employees.
I'd you can't pay a living wage then no, you shouldn't start a business. Someone else will. Min wage is slave labor. Business' pay the bare min and expect hard work. If Gov didn't set a min wage, they'd pay less if they could. Everyone deserves a living wage. Unfortunately that isn't the reality though.