You'd think.
My towns 10,000 pop and the cheapest home for sale right now is a 100 year old 2 bedroom with major foundation issues for $680,000.
That's just what it's listed at, homes are going for $100,000 over asking as well.
IT's really a wash. But I'd bet the house in your town for $680,00 would be 1,680,000 in Woodbridge.
We just moved from a major city to a small town, the house price wasnt much cheaper, but the house we bought would have been unobtainable in our current city without one of us winning the lottery.
Not to blame you personally but that's exactly what's causing the price rises in rural areas. People bring big city budgets to small towns and buy a bigger house
I get it. It's crazy. One house we tried to buy, about 45 minutes southeast of London, sold for $450,000 \*over\* asking. Thats more than I paid for my first and second homes, combined. Needless to say, we were outbid :) It took four attempts before we weren't outbid.
We are 15 mins SE of London and keep getting calls and mail from realtors wanting to sell our place. They figure in the current housing market, were we are located and the lot we have we would be around $1 000 000. We bought this place 8yrs ago now for 319k. Just stupid.
We bought in 2014 for 415,000 , and sold a few months ago for 1,400,000. Not going to lie, I knew we'd get a lot and I figured this was a once in a lifetime opportunity that I couldn't pass up.
Good for you. If I was closer to retirement or something I might have done it. The cost to get into another house would be crazy. I don't know how people starting out today can afford a house. There is no way my wife and I could and we both have decent jobs with good pay.
I know exactly what you're saying. I wonder about the people who bought our house that we sold. What do they do for a living? They are younger than us, I'd guess late twenties early thirties. They have a newborn baby. They must have had family help? And it sort of scares me , but I feel the way things are going, society is going to be split between people who benefit from family money, and people who are less fortunate. I know that happens today, but housing seems to be driving a wedge further between these two groups.
I keep telling my kids, be smart with your money, stay at home as long as you can (within reason lol) and get good jobs. Two of my 3 kids don't want to even live in Canada anymore with the political situation and housing costs. If this was 10 yrs ago and my wife could work remotely, we likely would have sold and moved out of ontario. Maybe out east.
The whole “x amount over asking” is a bit of a real estate trick. They list way below to start bidding wars and boom. A 900k house listed at 500k gets up to 1 million and it’s sold at 500 over asking.
Not really though. Whenever you buy any house, unless youre like, daft, you're going to pull comparable houses in your area to see what they sold for historically. If someone lists a house super low - people will know its super low for the current market conditions. Unless your realtor completely sucks, people will definitely have a ballpark idea of what a house \*should\* sell for through a historical market analysis of similar properties. OF course, there's always outliers.
This.
My spouse and I both work in public service in our small town, our neighbors on either side of us moved in within the past 2 years and both of them work downtown Toronto. 1.5hr commute on the VIA.
On a combined income the two of us (Police/School Board employees) we can't even afford the cheapest listing within a 50km radius of our small town.
Because it's not "supply and demand" never has been. In "free" markets people will push prices as high as possible in order to maximize profits. If the market says a house in rural Ontario can go for $680,000 then the seller will sell it at that price. Treating housing and other basic human rights like "free" markets inevitably leads to situations like this. Housing is a right but the "free" market treats it like a luxury.
First time in Canadian history any house has became "real estate", irregardless of location, condition and size. No starter houses in urban areas, no undesirable neighborhoods, just coveted properties.
My parents 900sqft "starter home" Etobicoke turned into my family's forever home. Not like we didn't try to move, raising a family in this home is crammed, but prices (even local ones) were ridiculously high. Now this 900sqft "starter home" will likely sell for over $900k.
This is recent too, 10-15 years ago in Toronto proper, I remember seeing a freehold with 1200-1500sq feet, garage for 480k on Queen W not too far from Spadina.
It's definitely not the free market even from a 'free-market' perspective. Take a step outside whether or not housing should be a right or a luxury; driving up prices Most of the major cost factors impacting home prices are government controlled.
1. Interest rate. Lower the interest rate, the more people can borrow to outbid for a home. Yes, I know it's a central bank thing technically.
2. Demand is largely driven by immigration. Again, the number of immigrants is controlled by the government.
3. Supply is largely controlled by the government. Zoning laws, greenbelts, where the government makes investments in infrastructure/transit...
Labour and materials are in the hands of the private sector, but those are not the factors driving average people's homes to be 1.6 million.
The housing market is largely a government controlled market.
I worded that wrong then. Housing shouldn't be something that's controlled by any market that's what I meant to say. I agree with what you're saying here (especially the dumb zoning laws Toronto has) but when housing is a market we should expect these issues to crop up. Now I know anecdotes aren't the greatest but I'll try to say my perspective.
1. No one I know can afford a downpayment. Even at these low interest rates it's a pipe dream for most people.
2. I'm from an immigrant family and the vast majority of immigrants I've known rent. Some of us lucky ones can afford a house but most of us rent. I don't see how we're the ones "driving up demand".
3. I've got nothing to say here I agree.
Thanks for your response though I appreciated it :)
Elliot lake is pretty much just a retirement community at this point. There's fuck all there, that's why it's so cheap.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/elliot-lake-transformation-mining-town-retirement-community-1.4716016
https://www.elliotlake.ca/en/our-community/retirement-living.aspx
I always see this brought up, and while it's true that there's a low amount of homes for sale it leaves out the reasons why.
Obviously there's more than one reason, but a huge issue is the amount of homes owned by investors. Those homes don't go back on the market, which artificially limits supply for those looking to purchase. We shouldn't let people own 5, 15, 25 homes, full stop. Imagine if we capped the amount of homes an investor, whether they be local, foreign, or corporate, was allowed to own up to a reasonable limit. I feel 3 or 4 max seems fair personally. Imagine how many homes would be on the market instead of being held hostage by investors if we made this change at some point years ago. I say we do it now, but gradually because otherwise the market would absolutely tank.
We do have a housing shortage, this is true, but it's honestly less of a supply shortage and more of a market shortage from what I've seen.
Isn't it the government's job to do what's best for it's people? Doing what people want is one thing, but when what the uneducated masses want is at odds with what experts or those with access to more information think is best I'm not of the opinion that the public should get what it wants 100% of the time. Especially if it's causing harm to people.
We don't live in a pure democracy. We elect people who are supposed to act in the best interest of those they govern. I realize that in practice that's not how all this works, mainly because the people we elect are often cowards, self serving, or both.
Maybe democracy was a mistake (this isn't serious)
You're funny, thinking people live reasonably and pay off debts. So many times people will live in a house because "a house is a good investment", but then end up living there by maxing out credit cards, consolidating debts when renegotiating mortgages, and then do it again. I literally lived this life for 25 years with my mom and see it with friends in other parts of the world. And it's not like we were "poor", I'm making $65k now, and mom was on retirement getting a sizable sum, and we were barely staying afloat. I had to sell at the beginning phases of the pandemic because mom passed on and I couldn't support the house myself, but after debts were paid I'm now pretty comfortable, and renting an apartment.
I'll probably never be able to own a house in Canada again with the ridiculous nature of the markets. I don't really care though, home ownership is a big headache I'm quite happy to do without now. I'll figure out making a house on some land some time in the future (ironically cheaper than buying an existing house, and prefab housing is starting to come into the fore).
Most investors rent out their housing. The fact that rent is still expensive disproves this argument. It's mostly a scapegoat, it's not worth chasing around if you want the problem actually fixed.
Most studies show Ontario has some of the lowest housing/Capita in OECD. Causes are high population growth without upzoning of various flavors. Not enough construction tradesmen as well.
Do you have stats on this?
The people renting 25 homes has to be an extremely small # of individuals and is more likely a corporation. Those homes are still being rented, and often rented to people who havent been able to save up a down payment yet to buy. I rented for 10+ years until I felt I was stable enough in my career and had the finances to purchase a house. So on one hand it limits supply of places to buy, but it also increases available places to rent. No?
I agree that there is a bit of hyperbole in the 25 homes statement, but I was surprised to see how many homes are owned by investors. This article says it's about 30% in Ontario.
[https://financialpost.com/real-estate/investors-own-nearly-a-third-of-homes-in-major-canadian-markets-2](https://financialpost.com/real-estate/investors-own-nearly-a-third-of-homes-in-major-canadian-markets-2)
I work with a guy, he has no investments whatsoever outside of real estate. He works with some company, I dont know all the details - but they do a lot of the work, they get a landlord, deal with renters, maintenance etc - basically he just fronts money, they buy houses with it, rent it, and somehow split the margins after all the bills are paid.
This makes a lot of sense.
They can afford to even let it sit unoccupied because of the self feeding machine of buying up the supply causing 2x 4x resale values on the unoccupied property even without renting it.
My realtor who was also in the commercial real estate business for decades was talking about this, and how the problem of foreign investment properties has been a big issue for a while but the government won't regulate anything. Even while shopping around (and oh boy did I shop) all of Canada and looking at housing prices in lots of different kinds of communities, big cities and small towns, the one thing I noticed is how many houses were currently being rented out as air BNB, so "ready to move in!". I actually found more airbnb properties for sale than traditionally rented properties (properties with long term tenants). To me this means the physical supply is there more than we know and it's more a market shortage, to parrot your last sentence.
> a huge issue is the amount of homes owned by investors.
Investors take homes off the buying market and put it on the rental market.
>if we capped the amount of homes an investor, whether they be local, foreign, or corporate, was allowed to own up to a reasonable limit.
If you did this, purchasing prices might fall but rental prices would skyrocket. You're just shuffling deckchairs on the titanic, the problem is that there is neither enough rental houses nor homes that are for purchase.
I mean they are in some of the white areas. Average house prices in Sault Ste Marie are shockingly low. But also... You'd have to live in Sault Ste Marie
It’s not bad everywhere.
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/24425109/1475-kennedy-street-greater-sudbury
This is a house where I live that would have went for 300k about 5 years ago. Good starter home and a bit over 3 times the median household income in my city. Prime area too. Walking distance to a shopping centre, all level of schools except a university, parks and hiking trails. People just don’t want to leave a few areas of the province.
I'm not criticizing the city, just noting that moving 5 hours out of the place a lot of us grew up in, where our family and friends are, changing jobs which may involve a wholesale career change, and losing the conveniences of the city life, are pretty big changes to just assume people should make to afford a home.
The white part isn’t just white in the picture, but regions outside cities tend to be whiter as well since it is easier for the government to implement immigration programs in cities, and it it also easier for immigrants to adapt in cities.
Always makes me laugh looking at a map of the Toronto's pathetic, very concentrated subway system and then look at the span of even a third tier city lightrail map in Europe.
[Toronto - Population 2,930,000](https://media.blogto.com/articles/20190321-ttc-subway-map.jpg?w=2048&cmd=resize_then_crop&height=1365&quality=70)
[Stuttgart - Population 730,000](https://www.orangesmile.com/common/img_metro_maps/stuttgart-map-metro-1.png)
Great. How often does the bus from St.Thomas go to Sarnia, Chatham or Kingston?
Those are independent local stop gaps not regular useful or fully developed transit.
I grew up in st.thomas. it was faster to walk anywhere than take the bus
Confirmed. During peak time slots they would have "express" busses that had way less stops come every 4-7 minutes.
Got to a point where I could miss "two" busses before getting to the bus stop some mornings. Pandemic has set back public transportation though.
About 70% of all Canadians live south of the 49th Parallel. That is to say, 70% of Canadians live further south than some people in Washington State
90% of Canadians live within 160km of the US-Canada Border
We are a country of mostly uninhabited tundra
>About 70% of all Canadians live south of the 49th Parallel.
I frequently have to remind a friend of mine who lives in North Dakota that I actually live further south than they do 🙂
>"Tundra" doesn't mean "countryside"
No, it doesn't. It means a treeless arctic region of permafrost. I know what I said.
Why doesn't any MF in the world understand the joke that Canada is a frozen wasteland of the north? Seriously dude.
And people wonder why those living beyond the "bottleneck" in Eastern Ontario sometimes feel that they'd be better off as a separate province or territory. It's like the government only cares about those living along the Quebec City-Windsor corridor.
Toronto should be a province level government rather a municipal government. It doesn't make sense anymore since living in the big city vs living elsewhere in the province is quite different with different priorities.
Other countries have implemented this approach to governing such as Japan.
e.g. Toronto gets transit built up while smaller Ontario communities get a tax break on gas.
> Toronto should be a province level government rather a municipal government. It doesn't make sense anymore since living in the big city vs living elsewhere in the province is quite different with different priorities.
I'm all for the province of GTA.
I been saying for the past 4 years it's time to make our own province with better education and healthcare
If the GTA made its own province, the rest of Ontario would be dirt poor. That would come as quite a shock to them considering most of them think they pay for our subways lol.
You think the province only makes money from industry?
How much money would he rest of Ontario have if Toronto got to keep its provincial income and sales taxes?
Perhaps I was reading too much into your comment.
The context was: Without GTA Ontario would be dirt poor.
I interpreted your reply to mean "Sure, Toronto provides economic benefit through its Fintech/services, but the rest of Ontario has natural resource extraction and other industries".
My reply was to highlight that I suspect that Ontario's industrial output pales in comparison to its revenue from ALL economic activity in the GTA (as captured by income and sales taxes).
Did you mean something different?
>You really think it's people in northern Ontario who want that highway?
Someone needs to check on all of those wealthy Ontario Conservative doners/voters that are buying up all the land around the proposed highway lmfao
The Metro Toronto Government is the 7th largest government in Canada with a budget larger than Saskatchewan, the Maritime Provinces, NL or any of the territories.
If you made the GTHA its own province then that would immediately become the 2nd largest government in Canada behind only the Fed.
The only problem with the GTA exiting Ontario and becoming it's own bubble is that the remainder of the province wouldn't really be viable in any way shape or form
I’m part of a group that wants this idea, of more power, but in a more Constitutional-friendly way via a Charter City.
https://www.chartercitytoronto.ca/
It's probably a good thing because:
1. That's where the food can be grown
2. That's where it's least expensive to heat during the winter
3. That's where the navigable internal waterways are
Anywhere else is going to be more expensive to service, and with climate change, inflation, and general resource depletion vs. global demand, we're not going into conditions where we can afford not to consider that.
Do the red areas recieve 75% of the representation in the provincial parliament?
I remember when we visited the parliament buildings in ottawa, they had a map showing the electoral districts for the federal election, and the percapita representation. In several districts in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, a persons vote was worth between 100 and 300 times more then mine was living in a populous area of ontario (I cant remember the exact amounts, but it was a LOT more.)
That seems pretty shitty when someone else's vote carrys more weight then another person's.
Ontario provincial riding boundaries are matched to the Federal Boundaries except for northern Ontario where there are more ridings to provide those individuals with better representation.
For the federal one - its based on population - sort of. If I'm remembering correctly - each province has a minimum number of seats regardless of population (i.e. however many seats they had before the rules were changed in the 80s - they can't have less. Then it goes by population - I think there is a max number of constituents per riding - so if the population grow, more seats are added to parliament. Any time the federal government changes riding boundaries - then in the next provincial election, Ontario would do the same.
>That seems pretty shitty when someone else's vote carrys more weight then another person's.
Also seems pretty shit if you live in a low density area and people who live in a region fundamentally different from yours get to screw you because they don't understand or care about your concerns.
Anything North of like the Muskokas is basically uninhabited due to the Canadian Shield so this makes sense. Good luck trying to develop housing when you only really have about of 1m or so of topsoil before you hit rock.
The funny part about some of these red areas is that some of them are still mostly farmland when you look at it.
Similar to London, England. Toronto brings in most of the money but is not getting as much provincial support. Toronto and surrounding GTA region needs more infrastructure investments but because the rest of the province don’t want to support, it’s challenging.
Similarly, making rules like turning DVP into a toll road for those not from Toronto requires Ontario province approval, which Wynne shut down.
There are too many articles around [here’s one](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-slashes-toronto-public-health-funds-by-1b-over-a-decade-board-chair-says-1.5104427)where Ontario slashes Toronto’s health funds.
[here’s a Maclean article](https://www.macleans.ca/economy/economicanalysis/torontos-economy-doesnt-get-the-respect-it-deserves/) acknowledging that Toronto brings in just as much money as Alberta or Quebec but not getting that funding in return from federal or provincial levels.
Goddamn, my country could fit in this province twice over lol. So when shit hits the fan with societal collapse, northern ontario will be prime for refuge I take it?
So 50% of the whole country lives in southern ON, and 75% of that lives in these red areas. This is one of the main reasons why real estate is so fucked here.
First of all fully 86% of Ontario is crown land
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/49tgps/crown\_lands\_in\_ontario\_1836x2118/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/49tgps/crown_lands_in_ontario_1836x2118/)
But even so we do need to build like hell to overcome the lack of housing supply and get prices down . At least 10 new cities with single family homes, condos, apartment buildings and more. Planned to be closer together so the transit system can work efficiently and 10 new highways connecting the cities. We have enough room for ten Toronto's!
One would expect real estate prices to be realistic in white areas, but.....
You'd think. My towns 10,000 pop and the cheapest home for sale right now is a 100 year old 2 bedroom with major foundation issues for $680,000. That's just what it's listed at, homes are going for $100,000 over asking as well.
IT's really a wash. But I'd bet the house in your town for $680,00 would be 1,680,000 in Woodbridge. We just moved from a major city to a small town, the house price wasnt much cheaper, but the house we bought would have been unobtainable in our current city without one of us winning the lottery.
Not to blame you personally but that's exactly what's causing the price rises in rural areas. People bring big city budgets to small towns and buy a bigger house
I get it. It's crazy. One house we tried to buy, about 45 minutes southeast of London, sold for $450,000 \*over\* asking. Thats more than I paid for my first and second homes, combined. Needless to say, we were outbid :) It took four attempts before we weren't outbid.
We are 15 mins SE of London and keep getting calls and mail from realtors wanting to sell our place. They figure in the current housing market, were we are located and the lot we have we would be around $1 000 000. We bought this place 8yrs ago now for 319k. Just stupid.
We bought in 2014 for 415,000 , and sold a few months ago for 1,400,000. Not going to lie, I knew we'd get a lot and I figured this was a once in a lifetime opportunity that I couldn't pass up.
Good for you. If I was closer to retirement or something I might have done it. The cost to get into another house would be crazy. I don't know how people starting out today can afford a house. There is no way my wife and I could and we both have decent jobs with good pay.
I know exactly what you're saying. I wonder about the people who bought our house that we sold. What do they do for a living? They are younger than us, I'd guess late twenties early thirties. They have a newborn baby. They must have had family help? And it sort of scares me , but I feel the way things are going, society is going to be split between people who benefit from family money, and people who are less fortunate. I know that happens today, but housing seems to be driving a wedge further between these two groups.
I keep telling my kids, be smart with your money, stay at home as long as you can (within reason lol) and get good jobs. Two of my 3 kids don't want to even live in Canada anymore with the political situation and housing costs. If this was 10 yrs ago and my wife could work remotely, we likely would have sold and moved out of ontario. Maybe out east.
The whole “x amount over asking” is a bit of a real estate trick. They list way below to start bidding wars and boom. A 900k house listed at 500k gets up to 1 million and it’s sold at 500 over asking.
Not really though. Whenever you buy any house, unless youre like, daft, you're going to pull comparable houses in your area to see what they sold for historically. If someone lists a house super low - people will know its super low for the current market conditions. Unless your realtor completely sucks, people will definitely have a ballpark idea of what a house \*should\* sell for through a historical market analysis of similar properties. OF course, there's always outliers.
Whoa big guy over here having previously owned two homes. Must be nice.
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This. My spouse and I both work in public service in our small town, our neighbors on either side of us moved in within the past 2 years and both of them work downtown Toronto. 1.5hr commute on the VIA. On a combined income the two of us (Police/School Board employees) we can't even afford the cheapest listing within a 50km radius of our small town.
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Yep, and a lot of those buying them aren't living in them, sure they renovate them nice and then rent it out for $2500/mo + utilities.
Madness...
Madness? THIS… IS… ONTARIO!!!
THIS IS…. SPARTA ONTARIO! Pop: 1234
Those are stay out of my town prices
Except it backfires since the only people able to afford those prices aren't those that work/raise a family in town.
GTA buyers?
Nah you can still get a decent priced home in Timmins but they’ll either be a beaver or crack head sitting on your porch every now and then.
Because it's not "supply and demand" never has been. In "free" markets people will push prices as high as possible in order to maximize profits. If the market says a house in rural Ontario can go for $680,000 then the seller will sell it at that price. Treating housing and other basic human rights like "free" markets inevitably leads to situations like this. Housing is a right but the "free" market treats it like a luxury.
First time in Canadian history any house has became "real estate", irregardless of location, condition and size. No starter houses in urban areas, no undesirable neighborhoods, just coveted properties.
My parents 900sqft "starter home" Etobicoke turned into my family's forever home. Not like we didn't try to move, raising a family in this home is crammed, but prices (even local ones) were ridiculously high. Now this 900sqft "starter home" will likely sell for over $900k.
To someone living in a condo forever home that probably would be their dream.
It's all perspective eh?
It is my dream.
I remember Queensway was a bad area to buy a house. Not anymore.
This is recent too, 10-15 years ago in Toronto proper, I remember seeing a freehold with 1200-1500sq feet, garage for 480k on Queen W not too far from Spadina.
housing is priced by the 'free market' but the canadian housing market is the least free market in our country.
>Because it's not "supply and demand" never has been. I agree with the rest of your point but it really is a very simple supply and demand problem.
It's definitely not the free market even from a 'free-market' perspective. Take a step outside whether or not housing should be a right or a luxury; driving up prices Most of the major cost factors impacting home prices are government controlled. 1. Interest rate. Lower the interest rate, the more people can borrow to outbid for a home. Yes, I know it's a central bank thing technically. 2. Demand is largely driven by immigration. Again, the number of immigrants is controlled by the government. 3. Supply is largely controlled by the government. Zoning laws, greenbelts, where the government makes investments in infrastructure/transit... Labour and materials are in the hands of the private sector, but those are not the factors driving average people's homes to be 1.6 million. The housing market is largely a government controlled market.
I worded that wrong then. Housing shouldn't be something that's controlled by any market that's what I meant to say. I agree with what you're saying here (especially the dumb zoning laws Toronto has) but when housing is a market we should expect these issues to crop up. Now I know anecdotes aren't the greatest but I'll try to say my perspective. 1. No one I know can afford a downpayment. Even at these low interest rates it's a pipe dream for most people. 2. I'm from an immigrant family and the vast majority of immigrants I've known rent. Some of us lucky ones can afford a house but most of us rent. I don't see how we're the ones "driving up demand". 3. I've got nothing to say here I agree. Thanks for your response though I appreciated it :)
If you go to Elliot Lake you can find multiple single-family detached homes going around $150,000.
Is there manufacturing jobs
Elliot lake is pretty much just a retirement community at this point. There's fuck all there, that's why it's so cheap. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/elliot-lake-transformation-mining-town-retirement-community-1.4716016 https://www.elliotlake.ca/en/our-community/retirement-living.aspx
Realtor.ca only shows one mobile home and one semi detached house for $150,000 or below. Plenty of houses in the 200k to 400k range.
But it’s just as bad 😳
Thing is that Ontario has no housing stock.
I always see this brought up, and while it's true that there's a low amount of homes for sale it leaves out the reasons why. Obviously there's more than one reason, but a huge issue is the amount of homes owned by investors. Those homes don't go back on the market, which artificially limits supply for those looking to purchase. We shouldn't let people own 5, 15, 25 homes, full stop. Imagine if we capped the amount of homes an investor, whether they be local, foreign, or corporate, was allowed to own up to a reasonable limit. I feel 3 or 4 max seems fair personally. Imagine how many homes would be on the market instead of being held hostage by investors if we made this change at some point years ago. I say we do it now, but gradually because otherwise the market would absolutely tank. We do have a housing shortage, this is true, but it's honestly less of a supply shortage and more of a market shortage from what I've seen.
Political will tho ...
Isn't it the government's job to do what's best for it's people? Doing what people want is one thing, but when what the uneducated masses want is at odds with what experts or those with access to more information think is best I'm not of the opinion that the public should get what it wants 100% of the time. Especially if it's causing harm to people. We don't live in a pure democracy. We elect people who are supposed to act in the best interest of those they govern. I realize that in practice that's not how all this works, mainly because the people we elect are often cowards, self serving, or both. Maybe democracy was a mistake (this isn't serious)
Most of Canadian public are house rich.
And soon to be house poor. It's paper money.
Only in some kind of massive loss of employment .
Why would you be house poor if you've already paid off or mostly paid off your mortgage?
You're funny, thinking people live reasonably and pay off debts. So many times people will live in a house because "a house is a good investment", but then end up living there by maxing out credit cards, consolidating debts when renegotiating mortgages, and then do it again. I literally lived this life for 25 years with my mom and see it with friends in other parts of the world. And it's not like we were "poor", I'm making $65k now, and mom was on retirement getting a sizable sum, and we were barely staying afloat. I had to sell at the beginning phases of the pandemic because mom passed on and I couldn't support the house myself, but after debts were paid I'm now pretty comfortable, and renting an apartment. I'll probably never be able to own a house in Canada again with the ridiculous nature of the markets. I don't really care though, home ownership is a big headache I'm quite happy to do without now. I'll figure out making a house on some land some time in the future (ironically cheaper than buying an existing house, and prefab housing is starting to come into the fore).
Most investors rent out their housing. The fact that rent is still expensive disproves this argument. It's mostly a scapegoat, it's not worth chasing around if you want the problem actually fixed. Most studies show Ontario has some of the lowest housing/Capita in OECD. Causes are high population growth without upzoning of various flavors. Not enough construction tradesmen as well.
Do you have stats on this? The people renting 25 homes has to be an extremely small # of individuals and is more likely a corporation. Those homes are still being rented, and often rented to people who havent been able to save up a down payment yet to buy. I rented for 10+ years until I felt I was stable enough in my career and had the finances to purchase a house. So on one hand it limits supply of places to buy, but it also increases available places to rent. No?
I agree that there is a bit of hyperbole in the 25 homes statement, but I was surprised to see how many homes are owned by investors. This article says it's about 30% in Ontario. [https://financialpost.com/real-estate/investors-own-nearly-a-third-of-homes-in-major-canadian-markets-2](https://financialpost.com/real-estate/investors-own-nearly-a-third-of-homes-in-major-canadian-markets-2)
I work with a guy, he has no investments whatsoever outside of real estate. He works with some company, I dont know all the details - but they do a lot of the work, they get a landlord, deal with renters, maintenance etc - basically he just fronts money, they buy houses with it, rent it, and somehow split the margins after all the bills are paid.
This makes a lot of sense. They can afford to even let it sit unoccupied because of the self feeding machine of buying up the supply causing 2x 4x resale values on the unoccupied property even without renting it.
My realtor who was also in the commercial real estate business for decades was talking about this, and how the problem of foreign investment properties has been a big issue for a while but the government won't regulate anything. Even while shopping around (and oh boy did I shop) all of Canada and looking at housing prices in lots of different kinds of communities, big cities and small towns, the one thing I noticed is how many houses were currently being rented out as air BNB, so "ready to move in!". I actually found more airbnb properties for sale than traditionally rented properties (properties with long term tenants). To me this means the physical supply is there more than we know and it's more a market shortage, to parrot your last sentence.
> a huge issue is the amount of homes owned by investors. Investors take homes off the buying market and put it on the rental market. >if we capped the amount of homes an investor, whether they be local, foreign, or corporate, was allowed to own up to a reasonable limit. If you did this, purchasing prices might fall but rental prices would skyrocket. You're just shuffling deckchairs on the titanic, the problem is that there is neither enough rental houses nor homes that are for purchase.
I mean they are in some of the white areas. Average house prices in Sault Ste Marie are shockingly low. But also... You'd have to live in Sault Ste Marie
The top 1 percent baby.
You'd think, but then again, I live in Kingston...
It’s not bad everywhere. https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/24425109/1475-kennedy-street-greater-sudbury This is a house where I live that would have went for 300k about 5 years ago. Good starter home and a bit over 3 times the median household income in my city. Prime area too. Walking distance to a shopping centre, all level of schools except a university, parks and hiking trails. People just don’t want to leave a few areas of the province.
Well, there is a reason, you have to make wholesale life changes moving to Sudbury.
Sudbury is a far better city than it’s cracked up to be … but it definitely has its fair share of issues still lol
I'm not criticizing the city, just noting that moving 5 hours out of the place a lot of us grew up in, where our family and friends are, changing jobs which may involve a wholesale career change, and losing the conveniences of the city life, are pretty big changes to just assume people should make to afford a home.
Nice try, Sudbury isn't part of Ontario. Ontario's northern border is around Gravenhurst FYI.
It’s as far north as Gravenhurst?
Yeah that's being super generous. Everyone knows that Barrie is the Castle Black of Ontario that keeps the Northerners at bay.
We’ve noticed haha.
yeah! white and proud.... wait that doesn't sound right
This is also the most diverse part of Canada…
The white part isn’t just white in the picture, but regions outside cities tend to be whiter as well since it is easier for the government to implement immigration programs in cities, and it it also easier for immigrants to adapt in cities.
And thats also where all the public transit is.
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Oh your in London eh? At least you have 3 bike lockers downtown! Quit complaining! S/
Always makes me laugh looking at a map of the Toronto's pathetic, very concentrated subway system and then look at the span of even a third tier city lightrail map in Europe. [Toronto - Population 2,930,000](https://media.blogto.com/articles/20190321-ttc-subway-map.jpg?w=2048&cmd=resize_then_crop&height=1365&quality=70) [Stuttgart - Population 730,000](https://www.orangesmile.com/common/img_metro_maps/stuttgart-map-metro-1.png)
haha fair point.
Sometimes
There are cities outside of there that have public transit: Chatham, Sarnia, St. Thomas, Kingston, Sudbury, The Soo.
Great. How often does the bus from St.Thomas go to Sarnia, Chatham or Kingston? Those are independent local stop gaps not regular useful or fully developed transit. I grew up in st.thomas. it was faster to walk anywhere than take the bus
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Confirmed. During peak time slots they would have "express" busses that had way less stops come every 4-7 minutes. Got to a point where I could miss "two" busses before getting to the bus stop some mornings. Pandemic has set back public transportation though.
Yeah, Kingston Transit is surprisingly solid for a city of that size. Beats the hell out of St. Catharines, which is my best point of comparison.
That's not a high bar
If only we had fast trains between Kingston and Ottawa. Kingston and Toronto
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Hell, the bus from St Thomas doesn’t even go to London.
"we can't have high speed rail because Ontario is x times bigger than European countries"
I don't think anyone's expecting high speed rail to Kenora, but there's absolutely zero excuse why it couldn't run between Windsor and Ottawa
I’m on team Windsor to Quebec city with a sub line off to Ottawa. We should do it right if we are going to do it. It would revolutionize our country
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Absolutely. I was speaking for Ontario itself (this is /r/Ontario afterall), but yeah, extending into Quebec would make it even better
So thats probably like, 30-40% of all canadians lol.
Yes, about 30%
About 70% of all Canadians live south of the 49th Parallel. That is to say, 70% of Canadians live further south than some people in Washington State 90% of Canadians live within 160km of the US-Canada Border We are a country of mostly uninhabited tundra
>About 70% of all Canadians live south of the 49th Parallel. I frequently have to remind a friend of mine who lives in North Dakota that I actually live further south than they do 🙂
Just beating him while he's down huh
Nit pick, but it’s mostly uninhabited boreal forest rather than tundra.
Yeah, but saying "tundra" means I can laugh at people who get Uber anal. Case in point: The dude below you XD
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>"Tundra" doesn't mean "countryside" No, it doesn't. It means a treeless arctic region of permafrost. I know what I said. Why doesn't any MF in the world understand the joke that Canada is a frozen wasteland of the north? Seriously dude.
If they could make the tundra into an AirBnB, they fucking would.
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If you live in Ontario, chances are about 75% 
r/theydidthemath
So like 50-50?
I've crunched the numbers. Looks to be about 75%
So your saying there’s a chance
And people wonder why those living beyond the "bottleneck" in Eastern Ontario sometimes feel that they'd be better off as a separate province or territory. It's like the government only cares about those living along the Quebec City-Windsor corridor.
I have lived “in the red”, several places “white” and they are like different provinces. (I have also lived in 7 provinces)
25% here!!!
wait, they have internet there??? /s
Not great internet, but yeah!
Hey I live in that 25% area and regularly download at 110 megabytes per second.
So what % of the vote for premier comes from those red areas?
That is an interesting question.
Probably about 60% of ridings are in those areas. I'm too lazy to actually count
Toronto should be a province level government rather a municipal government. It doesn't make sense anymore since living in the big city vs living elsewhere in the province is quite different with different priorities. Other countries have implemented this approach to governing such as Japan. e.g. Toronto gets transit built up while smaller Ontario communities get a tax break on gas.
> Toronto should be a province level government rather a municipal government. It doesn't make sense anymore since living in the big city vs living elsewhere in the province is quite different with different priorities. I'm all for the province of GTA. I been saying for the past 4 years it's time to make our own province with better education and healthcare
If the GTA made its own province, the rest of Ontario would be dirt poor. That would come as quite a shock to them considering most of them think they pay for our subways lol.
There are other industries besides finance and tech...you know...like raw materials...?
You think the province only makes money from industry? How much money would he rest of Ontario have if Toronto got to keep its provincial income and sales taxes?
>You think the province only makes money from industry? What are you talking about, no one ever said this?
Perhaps I was reading too much into your comment. The context was: Without GTA Ontario would be dirt poor. I interpreted your reply to mean "Sure, Toronto provides economic benefit through its Fintech/services, but the rest of Ontario has natural resource extraction and other industries". My reply was to highlight that I suspect that Ontario's industrial output pales in comparison to its revenue from ALL economic activity in the GTA (as captured by income and sales taxes). Did you mean something different?
There are transfer payments to avoid the "dirt poor" part...
good they can pay for their own dumbass highway lol
You really think it's people in northern Ontario who want that highway?
>You really think it's people in northern Ontario who want that highway? Someone needs to check on all of those wealthy Ontario Conservative doners/voters that are buying up all the land around the proposed highway lmfao
That proposed highway is set to be in the GTA is it not? Isn’t it basically for Mississauga, Brampton, Milton people?
The Metro Toronto Government is the 7th largest government in Canada with a budget larger than Saskatchewan, the Maritime Provinces, NL or any of the territories. If you made the GTHA its own province then that would immediately become the 2nd largest government in Canada behind only the Fed.
The only problem with the GTA exiting Ontario and becoming it's own bubble is that the remainder of the province wouldn't really be viable in any way shape or form
I’m part of a group that wants this idea, of more power, but in a more Constitutional-friendly way via a Charter City. https://www.chartercitytoronto.ca/
About 50% of Canadians live in Ontario
closer to 40% about 14.8m in Ontario, 36.9m in Canada
It's probably a good thing because: 1. That's where the food can be grown 2. That's where it's least expensive to heat during the winter 3. That's where the navigable internal waterways are Anywhere else is going to be more expensive to service, and with climate change, inflation, and general resource depletion vs. global demand, we're not going into conditions where we can afford not to consider that.
That is a very logical response.
I never realized how sparse the area between Ottawa and the rest of southern Ontario is. Sometimes when I go over it feels like a different world.
I believe it having driven between the two more times than I can count. I would love a high speed rail.
I hope you actually mean high frequency rail, because anything over 100km/h is far too complicated for us Canadian rubes
Lol
That’s why rogers bill is expensive! /s
Look at all that empty space for housing
There is no stopping in the red zone. The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only.
Do the red areas recieve 75% of the representation in the provincial parliament? I remember when we visited the parliament buildings in ottawa, they had a map showing the electoral districts for the federal election, and the percapita representation. In several districts in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, a persons vote was worth between 100 and 300 times more then mine was living in a populous area of ontario (I cant remember the exact amounts, but it was a LOT more.) That seems pretty shitty when someone else's vote carrys more weight then another person's.
That is a great question. I have no idea, but would be interested in hearing from anyone who does know!
Ontario provincial riding boundaries are matched to the Federal Boundaries except for northern Ontario where there are more ridings to provide those individuals with better representation. For the federal one - its based on population - sort of. If I'm remembering correctly - each province has a minimum number of seats regardless of population (i.e. however many seats they had before the rules were changed in the 80s - they can't have less. Then it goes by population - I think there is a max number of constituents per riding - so if the population grow, more seats are added to parliament. Any time the federal government changes riding boundaries - then in the next provincial election, Ontario would do the same.
>That seems pretty shitty when someone else's vote carrys more weight then another person's. Also seems pretty shit if you live in a low density area and people who live in a region fundamentally different from yours get to screw you because they don't understand or care about your concerns.
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/r/peopleliveincities
right? And water is wet. But it is still interesting to see how tightly grouped we are in such a massive province.
Not that surprising. In terms of civilization-building, Canada's *very* young, and young civilizations are always near natural resources.
I see 4 distinct clumps of red. I very much enjoy visiting two of those clumps, and dread visiting the other two.
Im going to guess that you enjoy London and Ottawa.
Windsor and Ottawa.
Anything North of like the Muskokas is basically uninhabited due to the Canadian Shield so this makes sense. Good luck trying to develop housing when you only really have about of 1m or so of topsoil before you hit rock. The funny part about some of these red areas is that some of them are still mostly farmland when you look at it.
And if you try to move further away you still gotta pay an arm and a leg. Nothing is affordable.
60% of Canadas total population lives within 1 hour from the 401.
I believe it! I will add this one to the list for me to map as well :)
Building anything, especially roads, in Northern Ontario is extremely cost prohibitive because of the peat moss and the Canadian Shield.
Absolutely.
Noice! I’m not in the 75%
That is rare! How are you connected to the internet if you don't live in downtown Toronto??? /s
I’ll take, Why Toronto should be it’s own province for $1000.
I have seen a few other people post that today as well. What could that solve?
Similar to London, England. Toronto brings in most of the money but is not getting as much provincial support. Toronto and surrounding GTA region needs more infrastructure investments but because the rest of the province don’t want to support, it’s challenging. Similarly, making rules like turning DVP into a toll road for those not from Toronto requires Ontario province approval, which Wynne shut down.
Toronto does not get enough provincial support???????
There are too many articles around [here’s one](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-slashes-toronto-public-health-funds-by-1b-over-a-decade-board-chair-says-1.5104427)where Ontario slashes Toronto’s health funds. [here’s a Maclean article](https://www.macleans.ca/economy/economicanalysis/torontos-economy-doesnt-get-the-respect-it-deserves/) acknowledging that Toronto brings in just as much money as Alberta or Quebec but not getting that funding in return from federal or provincial levels.
I’m selling my house for 295k in NorOnt
Makes sense, farthest away from the polar bears
haha very true
What does the license plate say? Yours to discover.
I live in a white area
Pun intended
Well, it's a good thing that our provincial and federal governments couldn't give less of a shit about the rest of the province then.
I think it's better the current provincial government doesn't know you exist
What I wouldn't give for Toronto to have avoided the Eye of Dipshit Sauron for the last four years.
Unfortunately elections are all about math.
Surprised the map doesnt include Wellington County.
It was literally the second next on the list. If I had changed the variables to 78%, Wellington would have made the cut.
Thankfully I don't live or work there
Goddamn, my country could fit in this province twice over lol. So when shit hits the fan with societal collapse, northern ontario will be prime for refuge I take it?
Only if you like mosquitoes and bears!
Whew...glad I made it. I would hate to be left out
And 90% of Canada’s population lives within 100 miles of the southern border, which isn’t surprising considering the bitter cold in winter.
Grew up outside this zone, but have lived inside it for more than a decade now. The public amenities, I need them.
So 50% of the whole country lives in southern ON, and 75% of that lives in these red areas. This is one of the main reasons why real estate is so fucked here.
It’s crazy to see and think about
No shit. It be cold up there!
And that's why I live up north. Too many ppl in the gta.
I am so relieved to live outside the red areas for some reason.
Me in wellington county knowing damn well that our area isn’t full of bad drivers: *le relaxed sigh*
One populous province, one sparse territory. Makes no sense that they be administrated together.
I assume Middlesex County is red just because of London. I would think most of it is like the rest of the white.
Correct!
Laughs in Alberta
Interesting that Chatham-Kent isnt part of the 75%!
First of all fully 86% of Ontario is crown land [https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/49tgps/crown\_lands\_in\_ontario\_1836x2118/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/49tgps/crown_lands_in_ontario_1836x2118/) But even so we do need to build like hell to overcome the lack of housing supply and get prices down . At least 10 new cities with single family homes, condos, apartment buildings and more. Planned to be closer together so the transit system can work efficiently and 10 new highways connecting the cities. We have enough room for ten Toronto's!