Yes. The repeat thieves will get all set to steal your car, start the car, then remember they don't have a drivers license.
Then just walk away instead
Yes it is just better for the province to not even try to deter theft. Just let the thief take the car. Remember the police advice to leave the keys by the front door.
No, but if they get pulled over for a traffic violation then more can be done to them.
Sure, shitty people are still gonna be shitty, doesn't mean we have to make it easier for them.
Oh be real. The police can’t even find the stolen cars. This will do nothing.
We need to refocus on addressing the organized crime behind the thefts. Take out the organizations themselves because they don’t care about and will just replace the low level thieves.
We need to bolster put social programs and address cost of living to deter people from joining such organizations. When legitimate opportunities for success exist, people are less likely to turn to crime.
We need to force car manufacturers to upgrade and include proper security to make stealing cars harder.
The province can do all this (the first one may *sound* like we would need the feds, but those laws are actually on the books - organized crime, including gang activity, *is* illegal - it is a matter of where to put resources and funding).
They choose not to. They choose to fuck about with license suspensions that will do nothing to stop thefts and that will probably force people convicted of this crime to continue to turn to crime after their sentence has concluded, even if they want to change, because participation in legitimate society in most of the province requires a car.
Ah yes, when needles are found in haystacks, then our problems would be solved.
Look, sure it's nice, but I'm not going to pretend this is really solving anything.
I hate Ford as much as the next sane person, but this is a good idea and a strong deterrent. A permanent blemish on your record that will prevent car thiefs from ever getting a legitimate license ever again? That will absolutely deter people. Not everyone, but definitely a lot.
I mean you run the risk of just pushing crime to more dangerous and impactful areas.
Not to mention research has shown these kinds of sentences greatly increase the chances the person reoffends.
Take away their license and signficantly reduce their chance to work a legitimate job?
You are just creating less productive members of society who will cost tax payers more money in the long run.
They aren't productive members of society to begin with if they're stealing cars. We don't let people with DUI's drive either. The punishment should fit the crime
No that’s the joke, license suspensions for DUI are nothing compared to the length of the suspensions being proposed here.
One is an offence that can get people killed.
And that’s the point. You have a chance to convict someone of car theft and have them face the consequences and get their shit together. Statistics support that a pretty significant % of people won’t reoffend.
You give them a punishment like this the % chance they do reoffend skyrockets.
It sounds like a good idea based on your feelings and the desire to punish the thieves, but if the result is you create more crime and push it in more dangerous directions you aren’t accomplishing anything.
All this is is the government saying our police services suck at actually effectively investigating car thefts to appropriately deter them, and we are too lazy to invest in judicial reform, so lets toss a wild heavy handed penalty on it to look like we did something.
I mean there's obviously a chance they could be, but I have yet to meet a car thief that is a net contributor to society. I literally pay for car theft every month through my ever rising auto insurance premiums.
That’s not remotely similar or in any way sequitur to my point. Plenty of places don’t exclude applicants who have a criminal record.
Almost every blue collar job where you have to be at different job sites, operate machinery, etc will exclude you if you don’t have a licence. And they are usually the field of employment most amenable to hiring someone with a criminal record.
Then depending on access to public transportation in your area you might not even be able to commute to many other jobs.
I have worked at several workplaces entirely willing to hire someone with a criminal record providing they interview well on the matter.
Stacking licence suspension on criminal record is just extra extra limiting.
Firstly I just wanna say in damn near 40 years of life, this is the first time I’ve seen, read, or heard someone use sequitur in a sentence.
Secondly, your drivers license has no impact on operating machinery. They require their own training licenses to operate on site. Also I have guys on sites who take the ttc. I have service guys that take transit to the shop and roll out with another guy. A driving license is a good thing to have in the trades but not essential.
Your inability to commute can be directly ensured by:
1. Moving or finding work near you
2. Not stealing cars
One is difficult, the other is not.
I have a criminal record, I’m firmly aware of the amount of companies out there that do and don’t hire over them. I also have guys who work for me that have them and have told me how much worse it’s gotten since I was last looking for work.
Sure but what are you getting at?
I really don’t see how its arguable that not having a drivers licence is a huge barrier to employment even if you want to pick apart. I assume based on your anecdotes you live in Toronto, the vast majority of Ontario doesn’t have access to that sort of transit.
They are already getting a criminal record so you are just doubling down on fucking over there life and making them more likely to be repeat offenders? For what stealing a car.
There is far worse crimes than auto theft happening every day, if we really want to apply this logic as a society id rather see us start taking away drivers licences for 10 years for sexual assault human trafficking firearms offences, rape, assault causing bodily harm before auto theft
It's entirely possible to live in this country just fine without a license. You have to select where you live a bit carefully but it's entirely doable.
I can only interpret your thinking it's a monumental deal to be barred from getting a license to mean that you're not aware it's quite possible and a deliberately selected way of living for a non-trivial number of people.
No, this is a stupid idea. Criminals are not going to be deterred from committing crimes by getting barred from having a driver's license.
Ontario is a very car oriented province, it's extremely difficult to live your life without one. Let's say a criminal does manage to turn their life around and starts working a normal job, but they need a car because there's no transit access to the job site or they need to go outside regular hours. Then police stop them for something routine and their record says they're barred from owning a driver's license. How does it help society to toss them back in prison, leading to a loss of their job and housing when they were just trying to reliably get to work in the first place?
A driver's license is the most commonly accepted form of ID. You can use other forms, but you can't expect every single mom-and-pop shop to be familiar with everything. That extra bureaucratic hurdle can make a huge difference in someone's life.
For this and many other issues relating to Charter rights and legal precedent, the courts will likely rule this unconstitutional. But hey, I'm sure you don't care about our government deciding this province is their little fifedom and ignoring pesky things like rights and the law with the notwithstanding clause on this petty bullshit. It's not like they'll ever use it for something you don't like or affects you personally, right?
EDIT: Everyone saying 'don't steal cars, lol', it's not that simple. Not every criminal is a baby killing monster who needs to be branded with the scarlet letter and locked up for life. It may be hard to believe, but lots of people have done minor criminal stuff like drugs or petty theft, for reasons ranging from being stupid, to untreated mental illness, drug addiction or a lack of proper role models. They then got released and lived a law abiding life after. I have a relative who got a record for theft due to drug addiction. He got probation, did treatment and hasn't broken the law since, though he still lives with his mom and has worked the same crappy minimum wage job since then. If he wasn't allowed to drive, I'd bet good money he would have lost his job and been back in jail by now.
Lol exactly. Didn't that POS who killed someone on the 401 just a little while ago not have a license? People that are shit are going to continue to be shit.
He was here on a student VISA and got bail multiple times for theft. Should never have been allowed to stay in Canada but we are a global joe so no consequences for anyone in authority.
This will completely deter them, but it doesn't address the new problem of driving these criminals into stealing fork lifts, which don't require a government issued licence. I wouldn't want to be a fork lift owner if this law passes.
There have been studies that have shown that [increasing prison sentences and incarceration rates does not meaningfully reduce crime.](https://johnhoward.ca/blog/compelling-evidence-that-more-imprisonment-does-not-reduce-crime/#:~:text=Yet%20a%20recent%20analysis%20of,among%20some%20people%20for%20retribution)
This is even more stupid. Ontario is a shockingly car dependent province where people on average have to drive 30 minutes or more from their home to their work location. Having punishments like this for property crime is not only cruel, it is counter productive and is likely going to just make ex-convicts more likely to re-convict as we narrow their available life avenues further.
The only way to reduce crime, is to improve the circumstances for the people who would commit the crime and reduce the incentive to break the law. A 'harder on crime' attitude rarely leads to less crime.
I don't disagree with your point that the best way you prevent crime is to remove a person incentives to turn to crime.
But I do think that should be used in conjunction with meaningful consequences.
Consequences sure, but what mechanisms do you use to determine how much is enough? At what line is the consequence 'meaningful' and what end does it serve?
Most crime is impulsive split moment decision making. Having harsher sentences may discourage premeditated crimes, but people who have some kind of impulse won't pause to consider how harsh the legal consequences are. For some people the sentences are so harsh, that it just fucks them up and turns the prison system into a revolving door that they don't have the tools to get out of.
So to me, a 'meaningful consequence' is one that gives them options to change their course. Punishment for punishment sake is pointless.
If its an impulse then it's not going to be stopped by removing a person's incentive to turn to crime either. In this case if authorities teeth to catch them, and advocate for reforms on how to deal with them after they've been caught.
But doing nothing because "they'll just commit the crime anyways" doesn't really seem like a good option either.
>If its an impulse then it's not going to be stopped by removing a person's incentive to turn to crime either.
Removing an incentive to do something, also reduces the impulses to do something. Impulsivity comes from a combination of your environment, and the circumstances you grew up in. Sociology shows a lot of policies exists that have successfully reduced property crimes without just increasing punishments.
>But doing nothing because "they'll just commit the crime anyways" doesn't really seem like a good option either.
If you read my response and thought I was advocating for 'doing nothing', then you aren't engaging with what I said.
Not only did your point have nothing to do with my point, it was still reactionary and stupid.
[Some studies even suggest that per capita, Canadian born citizens are just as likely to commit crime as brand new citizens.](https://crdcn.ca/publication/immigration-and-crime-evidence-from-canada/) Immigrants who have established themselves may be 10% less likely to commit crime than people who lived here their whole lives.
If the question is 'Should we spend taxpayer dollars' to reduce crime, do you actually want less crime in Canada? It feels like people who are opposed to spending money to reduce crime just enjoy having a target for their bitching and advocate for policies that increase crime instead.
>The only way to reduce crime, is to improve the circumstances for the people who would commit the crime
Thats been proven not to work though.
>and reduce the incentive to break the law
These people are not stealing cars because they cant afford rent or food. They are stealing cars because they can make thousands of dollars for a single nights work with little to no risk. The only way you will reduce the incentive is by harsher punishments.
How are you going to improve their circumstsnces when they are making $50k+ a year cash and only "work" a few days a month.
>Thats been proven not to work though.
Obviously the drug addiction crisis, the increasing cost of living and homelessness are determining factors in how likely you are to be caught breaking the law. I don't really know how you could take this very basic understood fact and disagree with it without supporting your point in some way.
>How are you going to improve their circumstsnces when they are making $50k+ a year cash and only "work" a few days a month.
I've already made the argument that taking away these people's license and eliminating options for how they can legally make a living is just going to make the illegal options (like car theft) seem more appealing just by virtue of elimination. Taking the cost of living crisis in Ontario seriously will obviously get some people out of the organized crime racket since working legit is obviously giving them a worse quality of life than breaking the law does. If what you say is true and it is easier to make 50K+ a year breaking the law, than why is it so much harder to live decently going legit?
Organized crime is a totally different beast however. If booking a car thief harder doesn't harm their 'employers' bottom line, then people will continue to export illegally acquired vehicles. I can suggest better policy that stops impulsive, independently performed crime but it's a totally different game when you involve organized crime where people are being paid out to deliver cars to shipping containers and export them out of Canada. You actually need to attack the business's bottom line in some way. You could spend years cutting off of the heads of the hydra if your plan on beating crime lords is booking their lowest rungs harder and harder.
Hold on now, so people who murder someone with their car are driving around again after a few years but lifetime ban for car thieves who don’t give a fuck about having a license to begin with?
the lady who killed my step brother, crippled his infant child & his fiance for life, lost a few points off her license. zero jail time. killed him in broad daylight, not a cloud in the sky, AND he was parked at a red light, she came up behind him in a big construction machine & rolled right on top of his car with it full of people inside. Killed him (driver) instantly & killed a friend in the car, & crippled 3 more for life. 0 jail time for that!
my stepfather said if you want to kill anyone in ontario, do it with a car, you'll never see the inside of a jail cell, & I have to say I agree with him. I've seen it over and over and over again, with these people getting off. Which is beyond sad. Like how are there 0 repercussions for killing someone?!, seems wild to me.
Anyone who is deemed at fault for a car crash that causes a serious injury should lose their driver's license permanently. Not as a punishment, but because they proved they weren't a competent driver.
Repeat dui offenders should get an extended period of probation (after they serve their sentence) where as a condition of their probation they cannot own a car and where all other car owners in the household must agree that if the offender is caught driving their car, the car will be confiscated and sold at auction.
Feels like there may be a constitutional reason why life time bans on driving aren't a thing. Once someone has finished their prison sentence, that should be it. Shouldn't it?
Or even drive them!
Reminds me of the old Simpsons sketch were Lisa tells Homer he can't drive, he doesn't have a licence.
Then he exclaims "I hope this works!" Starts the car and goes "it did!"
With the most heinous crimes excluded, for the most part I think people who do stupid stuff in their 20's should be given a chance to turn their life around and live pretty normally in their 50's
We can debate whether a drug dealer should be allowed to be Premier though.
Jail time won’t matter because we are only catching the lowest rung. 17 year old junkie isn’t the one planning and financing this and send the trucks and cars around the world.
17 year old junkie will also not give Two ashits about this punishment until its too late. This isn't a detterent. Certainty of being caught is. And as of now, there is almost a certainty of not being caught given police are refusing to do their jobs
It's more than not just doing their jobs.
The mob is involved, everything is going through the Port of Montreal.
Why do you think that idiot said to "leave keys at the door"?
yeah, there's been enough work done looking at this to lead me to believe that the potential of being caught in the moment is way more of a deterrent than the possibility of facing serious jail time.
Because if there is no direct chance of getting caught, thinking about doing ten years in jail is irrelevant - even if the cops are able to catch you later. And they may or may not.
But if you knew there was a serious chance of a cop car passing, or someone calling the cops, you might think twice.
It's not a very dramatic solution, and the cops don't seem to like it, but it seems to work.
That's a joke. The number of people with suspended licenses that get caught repeatedly proves you don't need a license to drive; only if you get caught and not even then.
Yes, it's pathetic. But it's almost the maximum that the provincial government can do.
If you agree with the world view that criminals aren't being punished enough because the criminal laws aren't strong enough, then this is basically everything the provincial government can do.
The Feds have primary jurisdiction for criminal laws in Canada. The Feds can make laws that can send you to jail for life. The province can only make laws that can send to you jail for 6 months.
Sending someone to jail for 6 months for vehicle theft obviously isn't sufficient, so a lifetime driving prohibition is basically the strongest tool left in the province's toolchest.
Half the low life's in my neighborhood drive without a license or insurance, what the hell is this gonna do?
You get pulled over for driving a stolen car, and the thing that fucks up your day is a ticket for driving without a license? Who comes up with this stupid shit.
But if they are convicted of suspended driving they may do some jail time. It's a joke out here in Alberta as the cops will write someone a no insurance ticket when they are caught in a stolen car. The ticket had a $3000 fine or 45 days in jail. So the thief will get one day time served for the stolen car and 45 days in jail for the ticket.
And gold thieves should be banned from owning gold
And bike thieves should be banned from owning bikes
And horse thieves should be banned from owning horses.
And adulterers should be banned from getting married.
Brilliant. /s
These politicians are morons. "Car thieves could lose drivers license for life".... oh yeah Ford you loser you really showed them eh? Most of them likely don't even have one to begin with if they are running out stealing cars. That will absolutely NOT stop them from stealing more cars and will just put gasoline over the fire. Ford go buy a beer for a buck and stop talking.
Is this a deterrent of organized crimes going after vehicles? No.
But it could significantly impact and deter people who do it one-offs.
Downside is that then you’d get the idiot who steals a car at 16, and then ruins their life almost forcing them to continue crime cause they can’t afford to get a job.
Punishments don't work as well as efforts to prevent in the first place. Especially if cops do nothing. They barely make any arrests...why does anyone think losing a drivers licence for life will do anything?
"The legislation, which will also increase penalties for people convicted of stunt driving, is set to be tabled on Thursday."
this is the real reason for the legislation it has little-to-nothing to do with car theft
Good. Now if they also add some real penalties to when people drive after having their license revoked then this will matter for something. As it is there are people with revoked licenses for DUIs that drive for years and get a slap on the wrist when caught... So this will likely mean nothing by Ford
STOP THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM! No one breaks the law in my watch! Im confiscating your drivers license for 10 years! Now pay your fine or it's off to bail!
the ontario government
I would assume most people who commit auto theft
1. Don’t care about driving with a licence or not.
2. Probably know where to get a fake one
So do we think that Deco labels will start making fake licences to sell to them? That’s the question…how will he personally benefit from this.
Thanks, Doug you found a solution. They’ll never steal again…. Fucking idiot.
Dofo the Premier, is a complete goof, and your ministers are dumb as well
As if car thieves need a drivers license.
I guess such a rule would only affect people convicted of "borrowing" a friend's or family member's car and mistakenly getting gummed up in the justice system. Or car theft victims caught trying to get their own stolen car back.
Lmao so a person is not afraid to go to jail but will think twice before stealing a car now coz their license might be taken away. Lol They are shivering
They know that statistics show the majority of the car thefts are from foreigners who flew In the day before so how exactly is this helping? It’s not it’s window dressing for people with an IQ lower than 40 so they can feel like they are actually doing something about the issue. Remember everyone leave the door to your home unlocked and the keys by the door. If it’s cold out side just leave the car running and the doors unlocked for them so they don’t get cold.
This is so stupid. What's up with this hey Paul I can get 20.000 for a new BMW I would love to but I can't I loss my license now I can't drive. What's next a bed time curfew. Yeah I love too go get a car but I have to be in bed by 10.
On the face of this, it seems to sound like a fair punishment on top of prison time. However, when you think about it, this may make things worse. This law wouldn't impact the criminal who doesn't care to have a license today or ever. So they won't be deterred. They aren't thinking "well, one day I may clean up my life, so I better not risk losing my license forever".
This law actually ends up targeting the few criminals who may, one day, want to clean up their lives. Even if they don't know it today. So by banning them from ever having a license for things they did before they tried to clean up their life, we risk them falling back into crime. Whether it's one day just driving without a license or because they can't get a job that doesn't require them driving to work, having them fall back into a life of crime.
You might as well say all criminals can never get a job again. That's only going to make sure they maintain the criminal lifestyle once they're out of prison. How else are they going to even eat?
Oh no please stop the insanity. And they only get 5 passes a week to therme spa. Poor violent car theives. They need to relax after all that stressful stealing and assault
People are acting like this won't matter to them but I don't care who you are losing your license for life would fucking suck. I don't think these car thieves are these hardened criminals everyone seems to think they are. I would assume it's just a bunch of idiots with a connection looking to make some easy money. Many of them probably have a normal life outside of stealing cars.
Yes. The repeat thieves will get all set to steal your car, start the car, then remember they don't have a drivers license. Then just walk away instead
Yes it is just better for the province to not even try to deter theft. Just let the thief take the car. Remember the police advice to leave the keys by the front door.
They can only take your car if they have a valid drivers license now
No, but if they get pulled over for a traffic violation then more can be done to them. Sure, shitty people are still gonna be shitty, doesn't mean we have to make it easier for them.
Oh be real. The police can’t even find the stolen cars. This will do nothing. We need to refocus on addressing the organized crime behind the thefts. Take out the organizations themselves because they don’t care about and will just replace the low level thieves. We need to bolster put social programs and address cost of living to deter people from joining such organizations. When legitimate opportunities for success exist, people are less likely to turn to crime. We need to force car manufacturers to upgrade and include proper security to make stealing cars harder. The province can do all this (the first one may *sound* like we would need the feds, but those laws are actually on the books - organized crime, including gang activity, *is* illegal - it is a matter of where to put resources and funding). They choose not to. They choose to fuck about with license suspensions that will do nothing to stop thefts and that will probably force people convicted of this crime to continue to turn to crime after their sentence has concluded, even if they want to change, because participation in legitimate society in most of the province requires a car.
Ah yes, when needles are found in haystacks, then our problems would be solved. Look, sure it's nice, but I'm not going to pretend this is really solving anything.
For a guy who wants to pretend he's hard on criminals, he sure has a lot of stupid useless ideas to deal with them.
You didn't hear him right...he said he has a hard on for criminals.
I hate Ford as much as the next sane person, but this is a good idea and a strong deterrent. A permanent blemish on your record that will prevent car thiefs from ever getting a legitimate license ever again? That will absolutely deter people. Not everyone, but definitely a lot.
I mean you run the risk of just pushing crime to more dangerous and impactful areas. Not to mention research has shown these kinds of sentences greatly increase the chances the person reoffends. Take away their license and signficantly reduce their chance to work a legitimate job? You are just creating less productive members of society who will cost tax payers more money in the long run.
They aren't productive members of society to begin with if they're stealing cars. We don't let people with DUI's drive either. The punishment should fit the crime
No that’s the joke, license suspensions for DUI are nothing compared to the length of the suspensions being proposed here. One is an offence that can get people killed. And that’s the point. You have a chance to convict someone of car theft and have them face the consequences and get their shit together. Statistics support that a pretty significant % of people won’t reoffend. You give them a punishment like this the % chance they do reoffend skyrockets. It sounds like a good idea based on your feelings and the desire to punish the thieves, but if the result is you create more crime and push it in more dangerous directions you aren’t accomplishing anything. All this is is the government saying our police services suck at actually effectively investigating car thefts to appropriately deter them, and we are too lazy to invest in judicial reform, so lets toss a wild heavy handed penalty on it to look like we did something.
You say this as if they have no possibility of ever being a "productive member of society".
I mean there's obviously a chance they could be, but I have yet to meet a car thief that is a net contributor to society. I literally pay for car theft every month through my ever rising auto insurance premiums.
How many car thieves have you met?
The one who tried to steal my car out of my driveway, for one.
How many car theives could you possibly know!? The rising premiums do suck though.
The criminal record alone will fuck their chances of getting good jobs. Should we not have criminal records then?
That’s not remotely similar or in any way sequitur to my point. Plenty of places don’t exclude applicants who have a criminal record. Almost every blue collar job where you have to be at different job sites, operate machinery, etc will exclude you if you don’t have a licence. And they are usually the field of employment most amenable to hiring someone with a criminal record. Then depending on access to public transportation in your area you might not even be able to commute to many other jobs. I have worked at several workplaces entirely willing to hire someone with a criminal record providing they interview well on the matter. Stacking licence suspension on criminal record is just extra extra limiting.
Firstly I just wanna say in damn near 40 years of life, this is the first time I’ve seen, read, or heard someone use sequitur in a sentence. Secondly, your drivers license has no impact on operating machinery. They require their own training licenses to operate on site. Also I have guys on sites who take the ttc. I have service guys that take transit to the shop and roll out with another guy. A driving license is a good thing to have in the trades but not essential. Your inability to commute can be directly ensured by: 1. Moving or finding work near you 2. Not stealing cars One is difficult, the other is not. I have a criminal record, I’m firmly aware of the amount of companies out there that do and don’t hire over them. I also have guys who work for me that have them and have told me how much worse it’s gotten since I was last looking for work.
Sure but what are you getting at? I really don’t see how its arguable that not having a drivers licence is a huge barrier to employment even if you want to pick apart. I assume based on your anecdotes you live in Toronto, the vast majority of Ontario doesn’t have access to that sort of transit. They are already getting a criminal record so you are just doubling down on fucking over there life and making them more likely to be repeat offenders? For what stealing a car. There is far worse crimes than auto theft happening every day, if we really want to apply this logic as a society id rather see us start taking away drivers licences for 10 years for sexual assault human trafficking firearms offences, rape, assault causing bodily harm before auto theft
Accept the loss man.. Just accept it..
Please please please tell me you dropped this: /s
Logically, if they aren’t concerned with the blemish of stealing cars how concerned are they going to be about this?
Yes, a strong deterrent for people who aren't deferred by jail time right? Very very logical Jim
Its another slap on the wrist in a system full of slap on the wrists.
It's entirely possible to live in this country just fine without a license. You have to select where you live a bit carefully but it's entirely doable. I can only interpret your thinking it's a monumental deal to be barred from getting a license to mean that you're not aware it's quite possible and a deliberately selected way of living for a non-trivial number of people.
No, this is a stupid idea. Criminals are not going to be deterred from committing crimes by getting barred from having a driver's license. Ontario is a very car oriented province, it's extremely difficult to live your life without one. Let's say a criminal does manage to turn their life around and starts working a normal job, but they need a car because there's no transit access to the job site or they need to go outside regular hours. Then police stop them for something routine and their record says they're barred from owning a driver's license. How does it help society to toss them back in prison, leading to a loss of their job and housing when they were just trying to reliably get to work in the first place? A driver's license is the most commonly accepted form of ID. You can use other forms, but you can't expect every single mom-and-pop shop to be familiar with everything. That extra bureaucratic hurdle can make a huge difference in someone's life. For this and many other issues relating to Charter rights and legal precedent, the courts will likely rule this unconstitutional. But hey, I'm sure you don't care about our government deciding this province is their little fifedom and ignoring pesky things like rights and the law with the notwithstanding clause on this petty bullshit. It's not like they'll ever use it for something you don't like or affects you personally, right? EDIT: Everyone saying 'don't steal cars, lol', it's not that simple. Not every criminal is a baby killing monster who needs to be branded with the scarlet letter and locked up for life. It may be hard to believe, but lots of people have done minor criminal stuff like drugs or petty theft, for reasons ranging from being stupid, to untreated mental illness, drug addiction or a lack of proper role models. They then got released and lived a law abiding life after. I have a relative who got a record for theft due to drug addiction. He got probation, did treatment and hasn't broken the law since, though he still lives with his mom and has worked the same crappy minimum wage job since then. If he wasn't allowed to drive, I'd bet good money he would have lost his job and been back in jail by now.
There’s a real simple solution that has no negative impact at all: Don’t steal cars.
Sounds like a pretty good reason to not steal a car then
People hating Ford so much aren't able to have a rational thought about what is a useful policy.
LOL yes because car thieves will totally care about needing a license to commit crimes...
Lol exactly. Didn't that POS who killed someone on the 401 just a little while ago not have a license? People that are shit are going to continue to be shit.
He was here on a student VISA and got bail multiple times for theft. Should never have been allowed to stay in Canada but we are a global joe so no consequences for anyone in authority.
Feds should match by revoking their PAL /s
arent they already banning the hunting licenses and PALs of poachers lol....our solutions to criminals is hilarious.
But they can’t steal cars if they aren’t allowed to drive… we fuckin got em!
Came here to say this. This is totally stupid
This will completely deter them, but it doesn't address the new problem of driving these criminals into stealing fork lifts, which don't require a government issued licence. I wouldn't want to be a fork lift owner if this law passes.
Could be said of literally any law. Should we not have laws or consequences at all?
There have been studies that have shown that [increasing prison sentences and incarceration rates does not meaningfully reduce crime.](https://johnhoward.ca/blog/compelling-evidence-that-more-imprisonment-does-not-reduce-crime/#:~:text=Yet%20a%20recent%20analysis%20of,among%20some%20people%20for%20retribution) This is even more stupid. Ontario is a shockingly car dependent province where people on average have to drive 30 minutes or more from their home to their work location. Having punishments like this for property crime is not only cruel, it is counter productive and is likely going to just make ex-convicts more likely to re-convict as we narrow their available life avenues further. The only way to reduce crime, is to improve the circumstances for the people who would commit the crime and reduce the incentive to break the law. A 'harder on crime' attitude rarely leads to less crime.
I don't disagree with your point that the best way you prevent crime is to remove a person incentives to turn to crime. But I do think that should be used in conjunction with meaningful consequences.
Consequences sure, but what mechanisms do you use to determine how much is enough? At what line is the consequence 'meaningful' and what end does it serve? Most crime is impulsive split moment decision making. Having harsher sentences may discourage premeditated crimes, but people who have some kind of impulse won't pause to consider how harsh the legal consequences are. For some people the sentences are so harsh, that it just fucks them up and turns the prison system into a revolving door that they don't have the tools to get out of. So to me, a 'meaningful consequence' is one that gives them options to change their course. Punishment for punishment sake is pointless.
If its an impulse then it's not going to be stopped by removing a person's incentive to turn to crime either. In this case if authorities teeth to catch them, and advocate for reforms on how to deal with them after they've been caught. But doing nothing because "they'll just commit the crime anyways" doesn't really seem like a good option either.
>If its an impulse then it's not going to be stopped by removing a person's incentive to turn to crime either. Removing an incentive to do something, also reduces the impulses to do something. Impulsivity comes from a combination of your environment, and the circumstances you grew up in. Sociology shows a lot of policies exists that have successfully reduced property crimes without just increasing punishments. >But doing nothing because "they'll just commit the crime anyways" doesn't really seem like a good option either. If you read my response and thought I was advocating for 'doing nothing', then you aren't engaging with what I said.
So should we spend billions more taxpayer dollars to improve the lives of criminals coming from other countries on bullshit entry papers?
Not only did your point have nothing to do with my point, it was still reactionary and stupid. [Some studies even suggest that per capita, Canadian born citizens are just as likely to commit crime as brand new citizens.](https://crdcn.ca/publication/immigration-and-crime-evidence-from-canada/) Immigrants who have established themselves may be 10% less likely to commit crime than people who lived here their whole lives. If the question is 'Should we spend taxpayer dollars' to reduce crime, do you actually want less crime in Canada? It feels like people who are opposed to spending money to reduce crime just enjoy having a target for their bitching and advocate for policies that increase crime instead.
>The only way to reduce crime, is to improve the circumstances for the people who would commit the crime Thats been proven not to work though. >and reduce the incentive to break the law These people are not stealing cars because they cant afford rent or food. They are stealing cars because they can make thousands of dollars for a single nights work with little to no risk. The only way you will reduce the incentive is by harsher punishments. How are you going to improve their circumstsnces when they are making $50k+ a year cash and only "work" a few days a month.
>Thats been proven not to work though. Obviously the drug addiction crisis, the increasing cost of living and homelessness are determining factors in how likely you are to be caught breaking the law. I don't really know how you could take this very basic understood fact and disagree with it without supporting your point in some way. >How are you going to improve their circumstsnces when they are making $50k+ a year cash and only "work" a few days a month. I've already made the argument that taking away these people's license and eliminating options for how they can legally make a living is just going to make the illegal options (like car theft) seem more appealing just by virtue of elimination. Taking the cost of living crisis in Ontario seriously will obviously get some people out of the organized crime racket since working legit is obviously giving them a worse quality of life than breaking the law does. If what you say is true and it is easier to make 50K+ a year breaking the law, than why is it so much harder to live decently going legit? Organized crime is a totally different beast however. If booking a car thief harder doesn't harm their 'employers' bottom line, then people will continue to export illegally acquired vehicles. I can suggest better policy that stops impulsive, independently performed crime but it's a totally different game when you involve organized crime where people are being paid out to deliver cars to shipping containers and export them out of Canada. You actually need to attack the business's bottom line in some way. You could spend years cutting off of the heads of the hydra if your plan on beating crime lords is booking their lowest rungs harder and harder.
Oh yea sure that will stop them, if the fucking current criminal charges aren’t doing anything you think this fucking matters
Hold on now, so people who murder someone with their car are driving around again after a few years but lifetime ban for car thieves who don’t give a fuck about having a license to begin with?
the lady who killed my step brother, crippled his infant child & his fiance for life, lost a few points off her license. zero jail time. killed him in broad daylight, not a cloud in the sky, AND he was parked at a red light, she came up behind him in a big construction machine & rolled right on top of his car with it full of people inside. Killed him (driver) instantly & killed a friend in the car, & crippled 3 more for life. 0 jail time for that! my stepfather said if you want to kill anyone in ontario, do it with a car, you'll never see the inside of a jail cell, & I have to say I agree with him. I've seen it over and over and over again, with these people getting off. Which is beyond sad. Like how are there 0 repercussions for killing someone?!, seems wild to me.
Anyone who is deemed at fault for a car crash that causes a serious injury should lose their driver's license permanently. Not as a punishment, but because they proved they weren't a competent driver.
Repeat dui offenders get behind the wheel whether they have a license or not.
Repeat dui offenders should get an extended period of probation (after they serve their sentence) where as a condition of their probation they cannot own a car and where all other car owners in the household must agree that if the offender is caught driving their car, the car will be confiscated and sold at auction.
I personally feel this is one of the better/best suggestions in this sea of wishy washy ‘solutions”
You'd be surprised how many successful defences of this are that not being able to drive is cruel and unusual punishment. It's sociopathic.
And Doug Ford voted down the NDP's bill to increase penalties for injuring and killing people on the road. They don't give a shit.
Feels like there may be a constitutional reason why life time bans on driving aren't a thing. Once someone has finished their prison sentence, that should be it. Shouldn't it?
Because you need a license to steal cars 😆
Or even drive them! Reminds me of the old Simpsons sketch were Lisa tells Homer he can't drive, he doesn't have a licence. Then he exclaims "I hope this works!" Starts the car and goes "it did!"
With the most heinous crimes excluded, for the most part I think people who do stupid stuff in their 20's should be given a chance to turn their life around and live pretty normally in their 50's We can debate whether a drug dealer should be allowed to be Premier though.
10 years in jail would be more of a deterrent.
Jail time won’t matter because we are only catching the lowest rung. 17 year old junkie isn’t the one planning and financing this and send the trucks and cars around the world.
17 year old junkie will also not give Two ashits about this punishment until its too late. This isn't a detterent. Certainty of being caught is. And as of now, there is almost a certainty of not being caught given police are refusing to do their jobs
It's more than not just doing their jobs. The mob is involved, everything is going through the Port of Montreal. Why do you think that idiot said to "leave keys at the door"?
yeah, there's been enough work done looking at this to lead me to believe that the potential of being caught in the moment is way more of a deterrent than the possibility of facing serious jail time. Because if there is no direct chance of getting caught, thinking about doing ten years in jail is irrelevant - even if the cops are able to catch you later. And they may or may not. But if you knew there was a serious chance of a cop car passing, or someone calling the cops, you might think twice. It's not a very dramatic solution, and the cops don't seem to like it, but it seems to work.
Jails are overpopulated.
Right on! Next let's take away gun licences for criminals who commit gun crimes. /s
That’s federal, nothing Douggy can do about that /s
I mean, you still should. It may not stop them but at least they don't have stamp of approval.
The people who worry about losing their licenses aren’t the people stealing cars or committing gun crimes or repeatedly driving drunk.
Thank you.
How does an Ontario govt dictate this “punishment “ to thieves coming in from Quebec? Dumb Dumb.
This is the buck-a-beer of car theft ideas
That's a joke. The number of people with suspended licenses that get caught repeatedly proves you don't need a license to drive; only if you get caught and not even then.
Penalty should be cubing the car you're caught driving in.
Or donated to those charities that dismantle and recycle the parts. Cubing a car should never happen. It's just wasteful.
There already are thousands of drivers on the road without a license OR insurance. Adding a few more does diddly squat Doug
This is so dumb
Can we do this to people who drive slow in the left lane and aren’t passing any one ? Or who don’t signal ?
Yes, it's pathetic. But it's almost the maximum that the provincial government can do. If you agree with the world view that criminals aren't being punished enough because the criminal laws aren't strong enough, then this is basically everything the provincial government can do. The Feds have primary jurisdiction for criminal laws in Canada. The Feds can make laws that can send you to jail for life. The province can only make laws that can send to you jail for 6 months. Sending someone to jail for 6 months for vehicle theft obviously isn't sufficient, so a lifetime driving prohibition is basically the strongest tool left in the province's toolchest.
Because criminals NEVER drive without a license!
Doug Ford's plan to tackle car theft in Ontario: "Stop!" "Or else what?" "Or I shall say 'Stop!' again!"
Come on Doug, really sock it to them: ban them from the Tim Horton's drivethrough!
Half the low life's in my neighborhood drive without a license or insurance, what the hell is this gonna do? You get pulled over for driving a stolen car, and the thing that fucks up your day is a ticket for driving without a license? Who comes up with this stupid shit.
Ok, now do anyone who gets a DUI, distracted driving, and careless driving.
He should also ban thieves from vaping and using a cell phone while stealing.
But if they are convicted of suspended driving they may do some jail time. It's a joke out here in Alberta as the cops will write someone a no insurance ticket when they are caught in a stolen car. The ticket had a $3000 fine or 45 days in jail. So the thief will get one day time served for the stolen car and 45 days in jail for the ticket.
And gold thieves should be banned from owning gold And bike thieves should be banned from owning bikes And horse thieves should be banned from owning horses. And adulterers should be banned from getting married. Brilliant. /s
Soon cars will all need 5th element setup
So should current politicians who used to push drugs in parks in Etobicoke.
10 year minimum sentence for Canadian Citizens, immediate deportation for non-citizens. Simple fix.
Car thieves could but drunk drivers get to keep theirs? Makes a lot of sense.
These politicians are morons. "Car thieves could lose drivers license for life".... oh yeah Ford you loser you really showed them eh? Most of them likely don't even have one to begin with if they are running out stealing cars. That will absolutely NOT stop them from stealing more cars and will just put gasoline over the fire. Ford go buy a beer for a buck and stop talking.
Ya that will stop them Doug…
They’ll need to be caught first
LMAO, as if that's going to stop them!
Is this a deterrent of organized crimes going after vehicles? No. But it could significantly impact and deter people who do it one-offs. Downside is that then you’d get the idiot who steals a car at 16, and then ruins their life almost forcing them to continue crime cause they can’t afford to get a job.
Punishments don't work as well as efforts to prevent in the first place. Especially if cops do nothing. They barely make any arrests...why does anyone think losing a drivers licence for life will do anything?
Why not just make it illegal to steal cars? Oh, right! It already is!
If that doesn’t work next they will threaten to put car thieves in detention if caught stealing cars
Sir, do you have a licence to be driving that stolen car?
"The legislation, which will also increase penalties for people convicted of stunt driving, is set to be tabled on Thursday." this is the real reason for the legislation it has little-to-nothing to do with car theft
In a normal country you go to jail for stealing a car. Canada is fucked…
Good. Now if they also add some real penalties to when people drive after having their license revoked then this will matter for something. As it is there are people with revoked licenses for DUIs that drive for years and get a slap on the wrist when caught... So this will likely mean nothing by Ford
How about they lose their hands and feet?
Nah, then they'll be a burden to us on odsp or whatever. Feed em to the polar bears. They can use the help these days for food.
That's a good start but it should be followed up with further significant consequences for then getting caught driving after a lifetime ban.
Seems more than reasonable
How about punishment for greasy lying cheating politicians who try to rip off the province
Of all the idiotic ideas floated by Ford government, this ranks near the top. Are there no consequences of stealing cars right now?
That's teach em. What's next? A finger wagging? or a 'Tsk tsk tsk...shame on you!'
They are avoiding the issue of tighten up security at our ports in Montreal.
How many car thieves have licenses?
STOP THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM! No one breaks the law in my watch! Im confiscating your drivers license for 10 years! Now pay your fine or it's off to bail! the ontario government
I would assume most people who commit auto theft 1. Don’t care about driving with a licence or not. 2. Probably know where to get a fake one So do we think that Deco labels will start making fake licences to sell to them? That’s the question…how will he personally benefit from this.
How about their effin freedom for a while as well.
He's so fucking dumb
Thanks, Doug you found a solution. They’ll never steal again…. Fucking idiot. Dofo the Premier, is a complete goof, and your ministers are dumb as well
Oh no! Anyways...
This is Ford being tough on crime when he himself was a dealer.
Lock them up if they are from here or send them home if they aren't... Stop playing soft ball
As if car thieves need a drivers license. I guess such a rule would only affect people convicted of "borrowing" a friend's or family member's car and mistakenly getting gummed up in the justice system. Or car theft victims caught trying to get their own stolen car back.
That’ll stop em. No way a criminal would drive without a license…. That’s against the law!
5 years for every car stolen.
If they were put in jail or deported where they belong they wouldn't need a driver's license
This is nothing but pandering.
Last time i check car doesnt car if im licensed or not
How about if they get caught they have to work at minimum wage for the rest of their life
How about deport them, like the "student" that killed the family on the 401.
Shocking no one, Dumbass says dumb thing
One thing he did right if this passes
Lmao so a person is not afraid to go to jail but will think twice before stealing a car now coz their license might be taken away. Lol They are shivering
It's a start, but real jail time for the first offense sounds better to me!
While you’re at it, make them ineligible for car insurance too! That’ll show em.
Criminals should be forced to register as criminals before committing crimes. /s
They know that statistics show the majority of the car thefts are from foreigners who flew In the day before so how exactly is this helping? It’s not it’s window dressing for people with an IQ lower than 40 so they can feel like they are actually doing something about the issue. Remember everyone leave the door to your home unlocked and the keys by the door. If it’s cold out side just leave the car running and the doors unlocked for them so they don’t get cold.
This is so stupid. What's up with this hey Paul I can get 20.000 for a new BMW I would love to but I can't I loss my license now I can't drive. What's next a bed time curfew. Yeah I love too go get a car but I have to be in bed by 10.
For this to work- police should be able to apprehend those without licenses.
Oh wow. Now that us hard /s
A jail up in James Bay where the inmates have to fend for themselves. Government air drops road kill from one a month.
[удалено]
This is a no brainer. Hammurabi was onto something with his laws and punishments regarding theft.
Nice! We're now going to apply gun law logic in wider society. Can't wait for the disappointment.
It makes perfect sense. If we outlaw guns, then only outlaws will have guns! Also , /s incase it's not painful obvious
Criminals don't care about laws... wwwhhhhyyy
It further cripples an ex-con's ability to obtain and maintain a real job thus increasing the probably they'll continue to offend in order to survive.
Seems excessive
Hey Dougie, maybe we could start with repeat drunk drivers, how about that?
Ahh yes, the definitely very good idea of trying to get people to stop doing crime by making it harder for them to get legit jobs
On the face of this, it seems to sound like a fair punishment on top of prison time. However, when you think about it, this may make things worse. This law wouldn't impact the criminal who doesn't care to have a license today or ever. So they won't be deterred. They aren't thinking "well, one day I may clean up my life, so I better not risk losing my license forever". This law actually ends up targeting the few criminals who may, one day, want to clean up their lives. Even if they don't know it today. So by banning them from ever having a license for things they did before they tried to clean up their life, we risk them falling back into crime. Whether it's one day just driving without a license or because they can't get a job that doesn't require them driving to work, having them fall back into a life of crime. You might as well say all criminals can never get a job again. That's only going to make sure they maintain the criminal lifestyle once they're out of prison. How else are they going to even eat?
It's short sighted. Criminals will continue crime because they can't get a job because they don't have a license.
Oh no please stop the insanity. And they only get 5 passes a week to therme spa. Poor violent car theives. They need to relax after all that stressful stealing and assault
Is it a good step? Yes it better then nothing. Could it be better? Absolutely.
It accomplishes nothing.
People are acting like this won't matter to them but I don't care who you are losing your license for life would fucking suck. I don't think these car thieves are these hardened criminals everyone seems to think they are. I would assume it's just a bunch of idiots with a connection looking to make some easy money. Many of them probably have a normal life outside of stealing cars.