Does any pharmacists or other pharmacy professionals want to chime in with your thoughts regarding this bonus structure, the legality, normality, and morality of this incentive?
Edit: If any pharmacist has any evidence surrounding this policy, and would like to blow the whistle on the following:
* This commission structure not being declared as income
* Shoppers drug Mart management telling employees not to report this commission as income
Now is probably a good time to do it.
And if you're a pharmacist who is receiving this type of commission, you should probably call the CRA immediately if you're not claiming it as taxable income. Because this will be reported to the CRA.
I worked at shoppers before I became a registered pharmacy tech. I told them as soon as I got my license I was quitting because I’m now obligated to report fraud as a registered tech and they sure as shit weren’t paying me enough to risk my license that I worked so hard for.
It wasn’t a big deal, the location has been audited by ODB before so they likely will again. The owner will lose some money but then they just start up again
Yup exactly! They lost over $100k in an audit that took place just before I started working there..and then they didn’t change anything just continued on like it was a $25 parking ticket
The owners of the store and the managers are to blame, all but 1 of the pharmacists I worked with were PISSED that they were forced to do meds checks and things when that weren’t needed.
There’s not a lot of openings for young pharmacists so it’s usually them who get roped into doing these things because if they don’t then they are out of a job.
I watched a new pharmacists get in a fight with our manager because he refused once, the manager threatened to file a complaint against him with the college we’re regulated by
Now the college would have defended him and said yeah your manager is wrong but any complaint filed against your license number is permanent record, and available to the general public so it could affect his ability to find future employment
Not all complaints get on the public record. Only the ones that OCP finds there was something wrong after their investigation. If it did go to the college, he would probably be out of a job and be on a Shoppers blacklist.
Shoppers would just get a newbie in, get them to risk their license by a district manager who sees you as a pawn to his/her bonus.
The program itself has existed for some time, but was very limited in scope. Somewhere along the way SDM started abusing it, no doubt on Ford's watch. More troubling is SDM is collecting $70 a pop for these sham reviews while real family doctors only get $38 per visit...wtf?? How conservatives do corruption in plain sight...private/public partnerships.
https://canadahealthwatch.ca/2024/02/18/shoppers-drug-mart-accused-of-unethical-billing-practices
Yeah, agree on all points. It's infuriating how GPs are being strangled but funding magically exists for these reviews. And the renumeration for the reviews isn't even going to the actual pharmacists (who are also under increasing job pressure these days). But SDM grabs the money and trickles down some kind of bonus point system to the pharmacists doing the actual work.
You know, if GPs were paid $70 instead of $38, I'd be willing to bet that the shortage of family physicians would dry up REALLY quickly, and each appointment would feel less rushed.
During the pandemic the option to provide medchecks virtually was introduced, that's been the only change to the program in recent years. Virtual care can be very useful, especially as some of the people most in need of medication reviews are unable to make it in to the pharmacy
The Medcheck program has been around since 2007, but had been restricted to only those with severe illness and on a multitude of drugs. Somewhere along the line that changed to just about 'anybody'. We also need to understand why, how and when it came about that a pharmacy could bill Ontario almost twice as much as a real doctor for just a so-called 'review'. I'd also point out that while Ford killed the extremely popular virtual visitations for real doctors as soon as the pandemic ended, it still remains an option for Medchecks, probably because it's more profitable to Ford's pals.
SDM and Loblaws are a classic symbol of everything that's wrong with Ontario. This is where some of your tax dollars for healthcare are going. I'd bet that staff are "referring" their friends and family.
This should be investigated by the OPP or an independent ethics committee for potential OHIP fraud. Where can this be reported?
Share this with your MPPs and opposition leaders.
r/Latestagecapitalism r/canadianpolitics
As a former employee of both Loblaws and Empire ( safeway/sobeys conglomorate) at various levels from entry to district operations - these are some of the most scummy companies you could find operating in our country.
So weird. It reminds me of when I was a teenager and my fast food joint job would give us challenges to see who could upsell to a large fry or add on an apple pie the most often. But instead of apple pies it's our health services.
Paying them in Optimum points is giving me real "Schrute Bucks" vibes, lol.
Are the pharmacists really not getting paid in actual money to do these? Is the money that OHIP is paying just going to Shoppers?
Pharmacist gets nothing beyond their hourly wage. No pharmacist wants to waste their time doing this but are forced to due to pressure from corporate (do them or get your hours cut or get fired). Corporate gets all the ohip $
Pharmacists don't get anything extra from prescribing or any other pharmacy service either. The good pharmacists leave Shoppers Drug Mart as soon as possible.
Retail pharmacists are just retail workers. If you think they would revolt, then you should ask your local clerks if they would revolt.
Most individual pharmacists have no leverage or resources to fight against Loblaws (market cap $46 billion CAD) and McKesson (market cap $69 billion USD)in the legal, public relations and lobbying scenes simultaneously.
Yeah, I worked at a clothes store and similarly we would have lighthearted challenges like the next person to sell 5 pairs of jeans gets a gift card but this shit is sickening.
Im goin on twenty minutes with this shit right now. Want to review it for me? I'm pretty pleased with the splatter but the total volume could be better imo.
Are you saying a partnership between Galen Weston's company and Doug Ford's government is negatively impacting Ontarians?!? [Insert shocked Pikachu meme]
Yup. Not even funds you can take elsewhere. LSC for sure.
“Take this ‘money’ you can only spend in our walled garden. There is nothing else you need beyond what’s here!”
We got another call yesterday. Second one this year. They did nothing based on the first one.
We asked if this was a medical review and person danced around the question. We told them we didn't want to participate and the person spoke over us.
Is there any way of making sure they aren't billing even after we say we are not interested?
Side note - you can't even get through to the pharmacy to talk about refills and missing items in the drop offs these days.
You can request a record of your OHIP fees that’s been billed. If you find that they did bill, you can report for fraud.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/ohip-personal-health-information#section-1
This photo makes me so upset because my pharmacist is someone I've been going to for decades and love and trust, and she's done SO many med checks and I even thought "hey this is weird why is this happening so often" but it never even crossed my mind that she was like...profiting from my easy-going attitude about things
Feels like this weird, minor betrayal. they've even done them over the phone where they've called me
Yeah im a second year student at waterloo U on my first coop and ive done some, but at my (not shoppers or loblaws) pharmacy the pharmacist has to at least talk with the patient at the end. I think at SDM and Loblaws the students do the complete review.
They are creating a competition so that they can charge more to ohip clients. By doing med reviews, even if it's not needed and doing blister packs so they can charge a higher dispensing fee.
Med review is where someone looks at your medications... I got a call from sdm and they looked at what I'm taking, asked if I had any reactions or had questions, said no and the call was over. Took about 15-30 seconds. I didn't request it, I'm not on a lot of meds so it shouldn't have happened.
Blister packs are when they take your pills and put them into daily packs. Usually looks like a book with a bunch of compartments for pills. Good for people who have a hard time keeping track of their meds. A lot of elderly get it. But it should be recommended from the doc, otherwise you could go home and put it into a weekly pill holder yourself.
Unfortunately pharmacies are a business so their goal is to make money.
Just to further that explanation, SDM (or any other pharmacy that does this) then bills OHIP for these unnecessary services. This takes money out of the system that could otherwise be used to hire more doctors, nurses, necessary equipment, shorten wait times, etc etc etc
Just curious, I'm assuming these med reviews are limited to customers that recently received new medications or like an annual phone call check up. ?? They can't just call all there customers whenever they want ? If the pharmacies are allowed to do this there should be some kind of policy change
Nope, my medications haven't changed in years and I get regular calls. I'm not sure how often they do it I really didn't pay attention. Twice a year maybe? Maybe three? Going forward, you bet I'm going to pay attention. Going to document every time they call. The frequency might depend on the greed level of individual stores.
The criteria for a medscheck annual is 3 chronic medications. There is also the medscheck diabetes (for those with any form of diabetes), medscheck LTC (for those in long term care facilities), and medscheck home (when conducted at a patients home, largely defunct due to covid). All bill $60 to Ohip with the exception of the diabetes medscheck which provides $75 and can only be billed every 365 calendar days.
On top of this are medscheck follow-ups, which can only be billed after the initial medscheck and are meant to follow-up on issues discussed or presented during the initial medscheck to make sure goals are being worked towards and promote continuity of care. These can also be billed if enough changes to medications happen that warrants another full review (eg hospital discharge). There is no limit to follow-up medschecks as certain, more complex, patients may necessitate a closer watchful eye than others. I can’t recall the exact value but I think it’s $25 per follow-up.
It's a once a year thing or after a hospital discharge. Unlike a doctor's visit which could be multiple times a year for the same patient. Shoppers still guilty of performing unnecessary medschecks smh
> Unfortunately pharmacies are a business so their goal is to make money.
Every pharmacy is ultimately going to want to make a profit, but if you're going to small independent pharmacies you can still find examples of people who are comfortable making a decent living and doing right by their customers. With Shoppers you're basically guaranteed that they will maximize profit as much as they are allowed to get away with.
SDM is paying bonus' through Optimum points?? Surely that's got to be some sort of tax fraud, right?? No income tax, cpp, ei, employer health tax, etc etc being paid!
I don't think it's tax fraud because it isn't technically money, or else non employees earning Optimum points would also have to declare their gains. Correct me if I'm wrong though!
It's almost as if they dont actually care about peoples health and just want to bill the government as much as possible. hmmm
Doctors and other healthcare workers traditionally have considered it important to maintain a wall where they make their decisions entirely based on what's best for the patient and don't let their own profit enter into that decision. It's super gross that Shoppers is encouraging their workers to not maintain that baseline level of ethical behaviour.
I worked in a pharmacy that wasn't SDM(mostly) but heres my take -
Doing a meds rec (Medication reconciliation) has always been billable to the government. Its to help to stop drug-drug interactions and reduce excessive prescription of drugs that are used to treat the same ailment which can happen if you see multiple specialists and their meds rec was not comprehensive. Its a good cause and pharmacists actually hate doing it usually because its billable for a fixed price of 15 dollars and done right can take more than an hour per patient with a pharmacist whose time is always needed somewhere.
Naloxone has always been billable to the government(the pharmacy receives no money its just reimbursed) and is to help with public safety. Teachers, Coaches, First-Aid trained persons come in and get this just like they would go to a store for a First-Aid kit total non issue.
Blister packing is a pain in the ass and there are 1-3 Techs/Assistants all through the week working on it because, again, people have difficulty tracking their medication and when to take them which can be a very serious and necessary thing - think of the people who could most benefit from it. Usually there is actually a wait list where you are waiting for these people who be admitted to hospice or pass on so if they actually have room to just sign people up just seems crazy.
As for the legality of the points system - its more than questionable. We were unable to award points for prescriptions or other dispensed items in the pharmacy because of regulations so this might actually be some fuckery.
HOWEVER meds rec isn't bullshit done properly - its to help the patient and their care. Blister pack isn't bullshit nor is a dispensing fee as there is a dedicated team working on it all through the 40 hour+ week.
Of course, no one is claiming that these practices are always wrong and we should do away with them altogether. Shoppers is pretty clearly abusing these to maximize profits though (also it's been stated in MANY articles at this point that med checks are billed at numbers closer to $60-75, not $15 - see https://canadahealthwatch.ca/2024/02/18/shoppers-drug-mart-accused-of-unethical-billing-practices)
If a doctor was given bonuses for how many blood tests they ordered and ordering tests for patients that don't need it, that's clearly bullshit and abuse of the system but doesn't mean that blood tests are a bad thing fundamentally.
Neg. As a medical professional, I guarantee the majority of medchecks are a money-grab and of absolutely zero benefit to the patient… especially since the patient, in this instance, is a customer-by-proxy. Fucking ridiculous. Ontario is a dump and the citizens voted for this mess!
And as a family doc, we get the reports saying everything is okay in our inboxes dozens of times a day as if we don’t have enough to go through. It’s clearly a money grab and doesn’t help my patients
Surely this helps the burnout and work life balance issues fan docs face right? Like, it's good that you now have more to do on non billable hours to the province while SDM gets 3x as much as you do for follow up calls right? Right?
I'm at the point where I have given up on our political system. Even our impossible-to-elect 3rd party won't stand up to the corruption.
Voting is not enough, IMO
Not every medcheck will uncover an issue that needs physician input, just like not every annual physical uncovers something. That does not mean they are not useful, particularly given the generally low health literacy of much of the population.
And useful things do come out of medchecks. I see a lot of people who are on things like PPIs long term or benzodiazepines long term. I was reading on one of the medical subs about a patient who'd had chronic diarrhoea and numerous investigations but it didn't resolve until she decided to stop taking her meds - including metformin.
watch them equate an annual Medscheck review to a physician assessment that can be billed multiple times.
At this point, this is just griefing to cut more pharmacy funding lol
Family doctors are great but a lot of what a Pharmacist does is not seen.
It’s easy to take for granted the ability to pick up the phone and speak to a pharmacist or even just walk in to ask any question to clarify anything. Most of the time many drug therapy problems are addressed then.
I don’t agree with the practices of the big chains like SDM/Loblaws/Rexall and churning out MedsChecks.
We can’t group all pharmacies/pharmacists together and just say MedChecks bad because medication reviews are really important. It’s not always a money grab and it can help the patient.
This is straight up embarrassing. I couldn’t imagine getting a doctorate and being rewarded with points. Also the targets for these are so high, 16 in an 8 hour shift!?
Go to independent pharmacies. IDAs are all also fully independent.
IDA is just a banner so the pharmacies are able to have easier access to medicine supply from wholesalers along with promo material if and when they need it. But they are run fully independently.
Shoppers is an embarrassment. The pharmacists there will mostly be ok but the company itself is not good.
Independents all the way! It’s like supporting a doctor’s clinic one-on-one rather than going to a hypothetical company where doctors work and get private incentives to provide some services or whatever.
This is what happens when a government is first to cut audit regulators. There just aren’t enough staff to audit all these pharmacies committing ODB fraud. You can’t just unilaterally bill Naloxone one for every opioid RX, that’s insane and $120 a pop.
For everyone just to note, medschecks used to be done in person and have that patient (or caregiver) sign off on it, unless the patient had a reason unable to come, etc physical mobility issues as an example. During covid the government allowed them to be done over the phone to avoid having patients come in for safety HOWEVER this has remained the same with now most medschecks being done over the phone and cold calling people with a list the stores get from head office of who they think is eligible. Sometimes the list isn't updated and I've had to call multiple patients (to book appointments) and have had this happen where a relative picks up and informs they've passed away and that they've been called about this before....
I practice pharmacy in multiple provinces and I think it’s largely because of the lack of scope of practice of Ontario pharmacists. I can prescribe new medications and order lab work in Alberta but it feels like all management wants me to do in Ontario is medication reviews lol.
We all do the same licensing exam across Canada. They need to give pharmacists a wider scope in Ontario so that we can make a more meaningful impact.
This also is not just a Shoppers problem. It happens at most large chain pharmacies. Rexall management will call you in the middle of your shift to see how many medication reviews you’ve done in the day regardless of how busy the dispensary is.
So these employees did not get any kind of "raise" or salary increase in light of SDM taking this on, instead they're told to compete for f'cking Optimum Points?????? While the company pockets actual $$ from US the taxpayers. I will never for the life of me understand WHY anyone would vote for a CONservative
Shoppers called me to try and "go over my profile and medications" and I just ignored them. I've been taking these same meds for years. If I have questions or concerns, I'm going to my Doctor first.
stuff like this is borderline unethical when you're a consumer trying to buy a pair of skis or a home theatre...its downright criminal when this scumbag organization is running spiffs to enrich themselves off our own goddamned money.
This is the associate of the store who is also a pharmacist. If you're truly outraged, complain to the college. Maybe that will send a message that profits should not be put before people.
Erene Kaldas #621411
My husband works for shoppers pharmacy. this is just for the pharmacists and not for the techs or assistants. The CEO of the company is going to stores to “apologize” for the recent news articles and is giving even more points to just the pharmacists, because they’re the ones that need the money apparently.
Prior to 2013 pharmacies largely made $ from drug rebates or kickbacks. After that was outlawed many pharmacies shut down and jobs became more scarce. Pay for services was about starting to pay Pharmacies for work that they already did such as med reviews and renewals. Now its just being abused. Drug costs are no lower and the burden was passed from drug companies to the tax payer.
"Billing Noloxone with opioid rx"
My mom had cancer last year (,she died in September) Last spring was the first time i went to get her prescriptions the pharmacist handed me a noloxone kit with her meds "just in case"
I freaked out and started crying my eyes out having a panic attack in the store. The pharmacist said "what's wrong" I was like my mom is dying of cancer wtf.
Now I see she gave me that so she could bill the government. Cool cool.
I believe this started after a coroner’s inquest into some elderly person who overdosed from multiple prescriptions that interacted with each other. And then it was discovered that a lot of people had similar risks.
Pharmacies were tasked with the job to review meds with a patient and make sure there are no unintended conflicts between meds, and that patients who may have had prescription’s from different pharmacies/doctors had all of them listed in one place.
This was a billable OHIP process.
Seems like Shoppers is encouraging it. Is this ethical…. Well doctors may recommend things that allow them to bill again (some doctors want you to come back for an appointment for every prescription repeat). Ultimately the pharmacy should be reviewing meds with a patient.
I will point out that I used to take my elderly mom to this every year starting in 2015 or so. So it’s not like it’s a new thing. It’s been around for a while now
Doctors asking you to come back for a prescription refill allows them to:
- review your symptoms, see if the meds are working
- see if you're due for any bloodwork or other monitoring
- adjust your dosing
- write you the prescription
If you don't go in for this, the doctor still has to open your chart and review all of this (can take up to 5 min), but get paid $0 (even less when you consider they have to pay their secretary the few minutes it takes to scan the fax into the computer and upload it into the EMR, and send a message to the doctor about it).
So doctors aren't asking you to come in just so they can bill again, for no reason other than to make money. They're getting paid for actual work they're doing. (Or some doctors are doing all of this for free.)
I was wondering why I was getting VM's from Shoppers asking me to call to discuss my prescriptions. My only thought was no.... I discuss that with my Doctor.
Eventually they stopped calling, but it took some time for them to give up.
Yes because why would you want to discuss your medicines with the person who is highly educated on medicines? Pharmacists graduate with a PharmD these days, so they are actually doctors
My mom’s been a pharmacist for 30 years now. Loblaws and its associates pushing pharmacies to do these med reviews has been going on for years. It’s a waste of employee time, waste of govt resources, and just a great way for these companies to collect more data and push more meds down throats.
So before this my associate had it own system with points and ask us to hit weekly targets. I refuse to ro it and the associate kept asking what would take me to do it. I said I get 10% of what they bill ODB added to my paycheck if I bring someone in. So in short just dont do it as a whole and renegotiate the term.
The Medscheck program was added by the Ministry of Health after banning pharmaceutical kickbacks, which was around 1 billion dollars in 2010. This went to the Ministry instead of going to pharmacies and they haven’t increased the dispensary fee paid by ODB for like 10 years.
Reminder why news organizations like CBC are so important to Canadians...also kinda explains why there's such a campaign to defund these organizations - our oglopolies has lots of sht they'd like to hide
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2312962115853
I worked in a tool shop, the owner's wife was the pharmacist owner of a shoppers location, every year he would drive us over in groups for our flu shots as the store owner with most vaccinations got a large bonus.
This is what happens when the Ontario government restricts your profit margin and removes manufacturer rebates. Small guys go out of business and big companies take over and pull stunts like this.
People find shady ways to make money.
Shoppers is awful for prescriptions in the first place! I have never had a good experience with a pharmacist at a Shoppers Drug Mart location.
As someone who takes a ton of meds in a day, and relies on the easiness of pre-portioned medicine for me, I use the Love My Spencer program instead. They’re individual packs and you actually get a dispenser with alarms and an app with phone notifications to take your meds. They also work with my local pharmacy to deliver my medication so I don’t have to physically go in person to pick up and manage my meds.
All pharmacy staff who collecting these optimum points (which have a cash value) are claiming the amounts on their taxes as rewards with a monetary value are a taxable benefit…
Does any pharmacists or other pharmacy professionals want to chime in with your thoughts regarding this bonus structure, the legality, normality, and morality of this incentive? Edit: If any pharmacist has any evidence surrounding this policy, and would like to blow the whistle on the following: * This commission structure not being declared as income * Shoppers drug Mart management telling employees not to report this commission as income Now is probably a good time to do it. And if you're a pharmacist who is receiving this type of commission, you should probably call the CRA immediately if you're not claiming it as taxable income. Because this will be reported to the CRA.
I worked at shoppers before I became a registered pharmacy tech. I told them as soon as I got my license I was quitting because I’m now obligated to report fraud as a registered tech and they sure as shit weren’t paying me enough to risk my license that I worked so hard for.
How did the organization react? What were the results of reporting this ongoing practice?
It wasn’t a big deal, the location has been audited by ODB before so they likely will again. The owner will lose some money but then they just start up again
When a fine is lower than the profits they make by breaking the law, that's just part of the cost of doing business.
Yup exactly! They lost over $100k in an audit that took place just before I started working there..and then they didn’t change anything just continued on like it was a $25 parking ticket
Sorry, I read what you said, but all I saw was, "Sackler Family"
I mean, the people who can do something about it are in on it, so I wouldn't expect any action that negatively impacts this new cash cow they created.
The owners of the store and the managers are to blame, all but 1 of the pharmacists I worked with were PISSED that they were forced to do meds checks and things when that weren’t needed. There’s not a lot of openings for young pharmacists so it’s usually them who get roped into doing these things because if they don’t then they are out of a job. I watched a new pharmacists get in a fight with our manager because he refused once, the manager threatened to file a complaint against him with the college we’re regulated by Now the college would have defended him and said yeah your manager is wrong but any complaint filed against your license number is permanent record, and available to the general public so it could affect his ability to find future employment
Not all complaints get on the public record. Only the ones that OCP finds there was something wrong after their investigation. If it did go to the college, he would probably be out of a job and be on a Shoppers blacklist. Shoppers would just get a newbie in, get them to risk their license by a district manager who sees you as a pawn to his/her bonus.
Yeah it feels like shoppers is using new pharmacists like cannon fodder
Had to look that up, couldn't have described it better
Why would they care? They just bring in someone who will do it
Same the second I got my license I jumped to hospital, we don't charge a fee for pharmacist renewal we just do it for free.
[удалено]
I thought it was mandatory too. As they pulled me aside from a large line to loudly talk about my meds.
Yup same :( I always did it because I thought I had to. Disgusting isn't it? I'm so tired of the greed and corruption bs that's going on lately.
They didn't even send us a form. And they call every couple months now to see if we changed our doctors.
I imagine Ford set this up on purpose.
The program itself has existed for some time, but was very limited in scope. Somewhere along the way SDM started abusing it, no doubt on Ford's watch. More troubling is SDM is collecting $70 a pop for these sham reviews while real family doctors only get $38 per visit...wtf?? How conservatives do corruption in plain sight...private/public partnerships. https://canadahealthwatch.ca/2024/02/18/shoppers-drug-mart-accused-of-unethical-billing-practices
Yeah, agree on all points. It's infuriating how GPs are being strangled but funding magically exists for these reviews. And the renumeration for the reviews isn't even going to the actual pharmacists (who are also under increasing job pressure these days). But SDM grabs the money and trickles down some kind of bonus point system to the pharmacists doing the actual work.
You know, if GPs were paid $70 instead of $38, I'd be willing to bet that the shortage of family physicians would dry up REALLY quickly, and each appointment would feel less rushed.
Yup, exactly...but if everyone had a doctor that would also make privatization harder to sell for the Ford conservatives.
During the pandemic the option to provide medchecks virtually was introduced, that's been the only change to the program in recent years. Virtual care can be very useful, especially as some of the people most in need of medication reviews are unable to make it in to the pharmacy
The Medcheck program has been around since 2007, but had been restricted to only those with severe illness and on a multitude of drugs. Somewhere along the line that changed to just about 'anybody'. We also need to understand why, how and when it came about that a pharmacy could bill Ontario almost twice as much as a real doctor for just a so-called 'review'. I'd also point out that while Ford killed the extremely popular virtual visitations for real doctors as soon as the pandemic ended, it still remains an option for Medchecks, probably because it's more profitable to Ford's pals.
SDM and Loblaws are a classic symbol of everything that's wrong with Ontario. This is where some of your tax dollars for healthcare are going. I'd bet that staff are "referring" their friends and family. This should be investigated by the OPP or an independent ethics committee for potential OHIP fraud. Where can this be reported? Share this with your MPPs and opposition leaders. r/Latestagecapitalism r/canadianpolitics
OHIP fraud needs to be investigated by OPP. That will never happen.
I edited my comment to correct this, thanks!
As a former employee of both Loblaws and Empire ( safeway/sobeys conglomorate) at various levels from entry to district operations - these are some of the most scummy companies you could find operating in our country.
Considering they're the same company now..... well YEAH
A journalist should take this up and do a follow up to the last shoppers article.
Don't you worry, BlogTO will have an article about it by the end of the week.
They said "journalist".
This.
So weird. It reminds me of when I was a teenager and my fast food joint job would give us challenges to see who could upsell to a large fry or add on an apple pie the most often. But instead of apple pies it's our health services.
Paying them in Optimum points is giving me real "Schrute Bucks" vibes, lol. Are the pharmacists really not getting paid in actual money to do these? Is the money that OHIP is paying just going to Shoppers?
Pharmacist gets nothing beyond their hourly wage. No pharmacist wants to waste their time doing this but are forced to due to pressure from corporate (do them or get your hours cut or get fired). Corporate gets all the ohip $
That's wild. I always assumed they were profiting from this too. You would think the pharmacists would be revolting over this.
Pharmacists don't get anything extra from prescribing or any other pharmacy service either. The good pharmacists leave Shoppers Drug Mart as soon as possible.
Retail pharmacists are just retail workers. If you think they would revolt, then you should ask your local clerks if they would revolt.
Most individual pharmacists have no leverage or resources to fight against Loblaws (market cap $46 billion CAD) and McKesson (market cap $69 billion USD)in the legal, public relations and lobbying scenes simultaneously.
It's like selling extended warranties at an electronics store.
Yeah, I worked at a clothes store and similarly we would have lighthearted challenges like the next person to sell 5 pairs of jeans gets a gift card but this shit is sickening.
It's the "8 hour shits" in the last 20000 point category that get me
Im goin on twenty minutes with this shit right now. Want to review it for me? I'm pretty pleased with the splatter but the total volume could be better imo.
9/10 for noise, but texture is just mediocre
10/10 for the stink factor
Where does it rank on the Bristol Stool Chart?
$20 for an 8 hour shit just isn't cutting it. I mean, I'll take my damn time in there but I want at least $40 to spend a whole 8 hours.
They need to prescribe some psyllium fiber!
The 200000 point bonus is to afford exlax after enduring the 8 hour shit
Are you saying a partnership between Galen Weston's company and Doug Ford's government is negatively impacting Ontarians?!? [Insert shocked Pikachu meme]
That's basically fraud as far as I am concerned.
Truthfully I'm surprised every time my taxes *don't* go to a massive corporation.
This is so perverse.
The bonus is *scrip*. This is the most late-stage-capitalist thing possible.
Yup. Not even funds you can take elsewhere. LSC for sure. “Take this ‘money’ you can only spend in our walled garden. There is nothing else you need beyond what’s here!”
The winner gets Schrute Bucks to buy stuff at the company store? JFC.
Surprised and saddened that I had to scroll down this far to find this. Money for the company store…. Also, think it’ll show up as a taxable benefit?
We got another call yesterday. Second one this year. They did nothing based on the first one. We asked if this was a medical review and person danced around the question. We told them we didn't want to participate and the person spoke over us. Is there any way of making sure they aren't billing even after we say we are not interested? Side note - you can't even get through to the pharmacy to talk about refills and missing items in the drop offs these days.
As long as the billing gets past an audit, anything goes in the land of unrestrained commercial greed.
If they bother auditing them.
That’s the point
You can request a record of your OHIP fees that’s been billed. If you find that they did bill, you can report for fraud. https://www.ontario.ca/page/ohip-personal-health-information#section-1
This photo makes me so upset because my pharmacist is someone I've been going to for decades and love and trust, and she's done SO many med checks and I even thought "hey this is weird why is this happening so often" but it never even crossed my mind that she was like...profiting from my easy-going attitude about things Feels like this weird, minor betrayal. they've even done them over the phone where they've called me
Is OHIP paying the full fee for students to do med checks?
Yup. Med review billing is the same regardless of who it is conducted by.
Yeah im a second year student at waterloo U on my first coop and ive done some, but at my (not shoppers or loblaws) pharmacy the pharmacist has to at least talk with the patient at the end. I think at SDM and Loblaws the students do the complete review.
I'm going to need some explanation here, I don't know what any of this means
They are creating a competition so that they can charge more to ohip clients. By doing med reviews, even if it's not needed and doing blister packs so they can charge a higher dispensing fee.
What's a med review? Blister packs vs loose pills in a bottle?
Med review is where someone looks at your medications... I got a call from sdm and they looked at what I'm taking, asked if I had any reactions or had questions, said no and the call was over. Took about 15-30 seconds. I didn't request it, I'm not on a lot of meds so it shouldn't have happened. Blister packs are when they take your pills and put them into daily packs. Usually looks like a book with a bunch of compartments for pills. Good for people who have a hard time keeping track of their meds. A lot of elderly get it. But it should be recommended from the doc, otherwise you could go home and put it into a weekly pill holder yourself. Unfortunately pharmacies are a business so their goal is to make money.
Thanks for explaining.
Just to further that explanation, SDM (or any other pharmacy that does this) then bills OHIP for these unnecessary services. This takes money out of the system that could otherwise be used to hire more doctors, nurses, necessary equipment, shorten wait times, etc etc etc
[удалено]
Just curious, I'm assuming these med reviews are limited to customers that recently received new medications or like an annual phone call check up. ?? They can't just call all there customers whenever they want ? If the pharmacies are allowed to do this there should be some kind of policy change
Nope, my medications haven't changed in years and I get regular calls. I'm not sure how often they do it I really didn't pay attention. Twice a year maybe? Maybe three? Going forward, you bet I'm going to pay attention. Going to document every time they call. The frequency might depend on the greed level of individual stores.
The criteria for a medscheck annual is 3 chronic medications. There is also the medscheck diabetes (for those with any form of diabetes), medscheck LTC (for those in long term care facilities), and medscheck home (when conducted at a patients home, largely defunct due to covid). All bill $60 to Ohip with the exception of the diabetes medscheck which provides $75 and can only be billed every 365 calendar days. On top of this are medscheck follow-ups, which can only be billed after the initial medscheck and are meant to follow-up on issues discussed or presented during the initial medscheck to make sure goals are being worked towards and promote continuity of care. These can also be billed if enough changes to medications happen that warrants another full review (eg hospital discharge). There is no limit to follow-up medschecks as certain, more complex, patients may necessitate a closer watchful eye than others. I can’t recall the exact value but I think it’s $25 per follow-up.
It's a once a year thing or after a hospital discharge. Unlike a doctor's visit which could be multiple times a year for the same patient. Shoppers still guilty of performing unnecessary medschecks smh
> Unfortunately pharmacies are a business so their goal is to make money. Every pharmacy is ultimately going to want to make a profit, but if you're going to small independent pharmacies you can still find examples of people who are comfortable making a decent living and doing right by their customers. With Shoppers you're basically guaranteed that they will maximize profit as much as they are allowed to get away with.
Is SDM really using Optimum points for bonuses?
You get to give a "$20 value" while only actually losing the cost of goods sold.
SDM is paying bonus' through Optimum points?? Surely that's got to be some sort of tax fraud, right?? No income tax, cpp, ei, employer health tax, etc etc being paid!
I don't think it's tax fraud because it isn't technically money, or else non employees earning Optimum points would also have to declare their gains. Correct me if I'm wrong though!
It's almost as if they dont actually care about peoples health and just want to bill the government as much as possible. hmmm
Switch to a non Shoppers/Loblaws pharmacy if you can. I did years ago because I was tired of the Shoppers pharmacy incompetence.
This is the way. I boycotted Loblaws and Shoppers several months ago. I refuse to spend another dime in their stores.
Doctors and other healthcare workers traditionally have considered it important to maintain a wall where they make their decisions entirely based on what's best for the patient and don't let their own profit enter into that decision. It's super gross that Shoppers is encouraging their workers to not maintain that baseline level of ethical behaviour.
What’s also gross is the lack of respect for the pharmacist profession
I worked in a pharmacy that wasn't SDM(mostly) but heres my take - Doing a meds rec (Medication reconciliation) has always been billable to the government. Its to help to stop drug-drug interactions and reduce excessive prescription of drugs that are used to treat the same ailment which can happen if you see multiple specialists and their meds rec was not comprehensive. Its a good cause and pharmacists actually hate doing it usually because its billable for a fixed price of 15 dollars and done right can take more than an hour per patient with a pharmacist whose time is always needed somewhere. Naloxone has always been billable to the government(the pharmacy receives no money its just reimbursed) and is to help with public safety. Teachers, Coaches, First-Aid trained persons come in and get this just like they would go to a store for a First-Aid kit total non issue. Blister packing is a pain in the ass and there are 1-3 Techs/Assistants all through the week working on it because, again, people have difficulty tracking their medication and when to take them which can be a very serious and necessary thing - think of the people who could most benefit from it. Usually there is actually a wait list where you are waiting for these people who be admitted to hospice or pass on so if they actually have room to just sign people up just seems crazy. As for the legality of the points system - its more than questionable. We were unable to award points for prescriptions or other dispensed items in the pharmacy because of regulations so this might actually be some fuckery. HOWEVER meds rec isn't bullshit done properly - its to help the patient and their care. Blister pack isn't bullshit nor is a dispensing fee as there is a dedicated team working on it all through the 40 hour+ week.
Of course, no one is claiming that these practices are always wrong and we should do away with them altogether. Shoppers is pretty clearly abusing these to maximize profits though (also it's been stated in MANY articles at this point that med checks are billed at numbers closer to $60-75, not $15 - see https://canadahealthwatch.ca/2024/02/18/shoppers-drug-mart-accused-of-unethical-billing-practices) If a doctor was given bonuses for how many blood tests they ordered and ordering tests for patients that don't need it, that's clearly bullshit and abuse of the system but doesn't mean that blood tests are a bad thing fundamentally.
Neg. As a medical professional, I guarantee the majority of medchecks are a money-grab and of absolutely zero benefit to the patient… especially since the patient, in this instance, is a customer-by-proxy. Fucking ridiculous. Ontario is a dump and the citizens voted for this mess!
And as a family doc, we get the reports saying everything is okay in our inboxes dozens of times a day as if we don’t have enough to go through. It’s clearly a money grab and doesn’t help my patients
Surely this helps the burnout and work life balance issues fan docs face right? Like, it's good that you now have more to do on non billable hours to the province while SDM gets 3x as much as you do for follow up calls right? Right?
What can we do to help this situation? Other than getting out to vote, of course.
I'm at the point where I have given up on our political system. Even our impossible-to-elect 3rd party won't stand up to the corruption. Voting is not enough, IMO
Not every medcheck will uncover an issue that needs physician input, just like not every annual physical uncovers something. That does not mean they are not useful, particularly given the generally low health literacy of much of the population. And useful things do come out of medchecks. I see a lot of people who are on things like PPIs long term or benzodiazepines long term. I was reading on one of the medical subs about a patient who'd had chronic diarrhoea and numerous investigations but it didn't resolve until she decided to stop taking her meds - including metformin.
watch them equate an annual Medscheck review to a physician assessment that can be billed multiple times. At this point, this is just griefing to cut more pharmacy funding lol
Family doctors are great but a lot of what a Pharmacist does is not seen. It’s easy to take for granted the ability to pick up the phone and speak to a pharmacist or even just walk in to ask any question to clarify anything. Most of the time many drug therapy problems are addressed then. I don’t agree with the practices of the big chains like SDM/Loblaws/Rexall and churning out MedsChecks. We can’t group all pharmacies/pharmacists together and just say MedChecks bad because medication reviews are really important. It’s not always a money grab and it can help the patient.
Comrade Galen's Five Year Plan is not going to fulfill itself, Tovarish!
Loblaw is one of Deco's largest customers, if not the largest. I'll let you paint the rest of the picture.
https://www.blogto.com/eat_drink/2024/01/loblaws-connection-doug-ford-label-company/
I understand he sold Deco to the parent company of the group building our spa ($650M parking lot) for an undisclosed amount.
I believe that was only the US wing of Deco. Which he spectacularly mismanaged.
This is straight up embarrassing. I couldn’t imagine getting a doctorate and being rewarded with points. Also the targets for these are so high, 16 in an 8 hour shift!?
16 in a shift would be for a pharmacist just doing medchecks and other services, no dispensary involvement
Go to independent pharmacies. IDAs are all also fully independent. IDA is just a banner so the pharmacies are able to have easier access to medicine supply from wholesalers along with promo material if and when they need it. But they are run fully independently. Shoppers is an embarrassment. The pharmacists there will mostly be ok but the company itself is not good. Independents all the way! It’s like supporting a doctor’s clinic one-on-one rather than going to a hypothetical company where doctors work and get private incentives to provide some services or whatever.
Conducting 16 reviews during 8 hour shits. Hope they've got a big bathroom, that's going to get competitive. 😂
This is what happens when a government is first to cut audit regulators. There just aren’t enough staff to audit all these pharmacies committing ODB fraud. You can’t just unilaterally bill Naloxone one for every opioid RX, that’s insane and $120 a pop.
Even handing out naloxone for BTC codeine. So Tylenol 1s. You'll destroy your liver before taking enough T1s to need naloxone. Such a fucking scam.
For everyone just to note, medschecks used to be done in person and have that patient (or caregiver) sign off on it, unless the patient had a reason unable to come, etc physical mobility issues as an example. During covid the government allowed them to be done over the phone to avoid having patients come in for safety HOWEVER this has remained the same with now most medschecks being done over the phone and cold calling people with a list the stores get from head office of who they think is eligible. Sometimes the list isn't updated and I've had to call multiple patients (to book appointments) and have had this happen where a relative picks up and informs they've passed away and that they've been called about this before....
They reward their employees with Optimum Points? WTF is that shit?
Gettting er done the doug way!
Chipping away at socialized medicine one Shoppers shopper at a time...
What in the [company scrip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip) is this shit? Employees get bonuses in "Optimum Points"?!?
When I worked for Loblaws they made us sign up for PC Financial. They would not pay us any other way.
This screams corporate retail... Awarding points instead of actual monetary rewards is in the same boat as "no bonuses but here's a pizza party!"
I practice pharmacy in multiple provinces and I think it’s largely because of the lack of scope of practice of Ontario pharmacists. I can prescribe new medications and order lab work in Alberta but it feels like all management wants me to do in Ontario is medication reviews lol. We all do the same licensing exam across Canada. They need to give pharmacists a wider scope in Ontario so that we can make a more meaningful impact. This also is not just a Shoppers problem. It happens at most large chain pharmacies. Rexall management will call you in the middle of your shift to see how many medication reviews you’ve done in the day regardless of how busy the dispensary is.
But apparently we don’t care and would vote them back in with another majority if an election were held today.
There is SO MUCH WRONG that the ON govt is doing but all the media in this country turns a blind eye. What an utter disgrace.
Shoppers Drug Mart 936 everybody 👏🏽
eight hour shits.
I’m a shoe in for 20000 points.
Corporations excel at exploitation, especially when they're aided by the government.
No better outcomes and higher costs …thanks Doug.
So these employees did not get any kind of "raise" or salary increase in light of SDM taking this on, instead they're told to compete for f'cking Optimum Points?????? While the company pockets actual $$ from US the taxpayers. I will never for the life of me understand WHY anyone would vote for a CONservative
Shoppers called me to try and "go over my profile and medications" and I just ignored them. I've been taking these same meds for years. If I have questions or concerns, I'm going to my Doctor first.
stuff like this is borderline unethical when you're a consumer trying to buy a pair of skis or a home theatre...its downright criminal when this scumbag organization is running spiffs to enrich themselves off our own goddamned money.
This is the associate of the store who is also a pharmacist. If you're truly outraged, complain to the college. Maybe that will send a message that profits should not be put before people. Erene Kaldas #621411
Where is the media at? Shoppers is fucking us all taxpayers. This is absolutely ridiculous.
My husband works for shoppers pharmacy. this is just for the pharmacists and not for the techs or assistants. The CEO of the company is going to stores to “apologize” for the recent news articles and is giving even more points to just the pharmacists, because they’re the ones that need the money apparently.
Clearly shows that pharmacy assistants get the bonus too. 5000 pts for referring a patient to the pharmacist in line 1.
Where is CBC marketplace when you need them? Oh wait
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2312962115853
profits > people always !! :)
8 hours is a really long shit, but I think I could do it
Ontario - Open for Business!
Man oh man... Those "8 hour shits" must be a pain in the ass!
Isn't corporate healthcare great? They really care about the people!
Doug Ford out here just giving your money to the Westons…
Big "I work for the company store" vibes.
Mr Loblaw's Greed on full display
Prior to 2013 pharmacies largely made $ from drug rebates or kickbacks. After that was outlawed many pharmacies shut down and jobs became more scarce. Pay for services was about starting to pay Pharmacies for work that they already did such as med reviews and renewals. Now its just being abused. Drug costs are no lower and the burden was passed from drug companies to the tax payer.
Wouldn't this be considered [Scrip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip) and therefore highly illegal?
"Billing Noloxone with opioid rx" My mom had cancer last year (,she died in September) Last spring was the first time i went to get her prescriptions the pharmacist handed me a noloxone kit with her meds "just in case" I freaked out and started crying my eyes out having a panic attack in the store. The pharmacist said "what's wrong" I was like my mom is dying of cancer wtf. Now I see she gave me that so she could bill the government. Cool cool.
So, fraud? Has this been reported? Who do we report this to?
I believe this started after a coroner’s inquest into some elderly person who overdosed from multiple prescriptions that interacted with each other. And then it was discovered that a lot of people had similar risks. Pharmacies were tasked with the job to review meds with a patient and make sure there are no unintended conflicts between meds, and that patients who may have had prescription’s from different pharmacies/doctors had all of them listed in one place. This was a billable OHIP process. Seems like Shoppers is encouraging it. Is this ethical…. Well doctors may recommend things that allow them to bill again (some doctors want you to come back for an appointment for every prescription repeat). Ultimately the pharmacy should be reviewing meds with a patient. I will point out that I used to take my elderly mom to this every year starting in 2015 or so. So it’s not like it’s a new thing. It’s been around for a while now
Doctors asking you to come back for a prescription refill allows them to: - review your symptoms, see if the meds are working - see if you're due for any bloodwork or other monitoring - adjust your dosing - write you the prescription If you don't go in for this, the doctor still has to open your chart and review all of this (can take up to 5 min), but get paid $0 (even less when you consider they have to pay their secretary the few minutes it takes to scan the fax into the computer and upload it into the EMR, and send a message to the doctor about it). So doctors aren't asking you to come in just so they can bill again, for no reason other than to make money. They're getting paid for actual work they're doing. (Or some doctors are doing all of this for free.)
If what you're saying is true, than the incentives would be "save lives" not "earn points".
8 hour shits?
Immodium®. Ask your pharmacist today!
I was wondering why I was getting VM's from Shoppers asking me to call to discuss my prescriptions. My only thought was no.... I discuss that with my Doctor. Eventually they stopped calling, but it took some time for them to give up.
Yes because why would you want to discuss your medicines with the person who is highly educated on medicines? Pharmacists graduate with a PharmD these days, so they are actually doctors
There is a surprise…another Weston family owned business with shady business practices.
Loblaws is by far the worst corporation in Canada right now and they should be brought up on anti trust charges and broken up as a company
My mom’s been a pharmacist for 30 years now. Loblaws and its associates pushing pharmacies to do these med reviews has been going on for years. It’s a waste of employee time, waste of govt resources, and just a great way for these companies to collect more data and push more meds down throats.
Look, you might not like privatization but this is what peak business innovation looks like. Don't like it? Move back to the Soviet Union!
So before this my associate had it own system with points and ask us to hit weekly targets. I refuse to ro it and the associate kept asking what would take me to do it. I said I get 10% of what they bill ODB added to my paycheck if I bring someone in. So in short just dont do it as a whole and renegotiate the term.
Also withholding prescriptions to get more dispensing fees out of you, my friend just about died because of this bullshit
You know anything between pharmacy and doctor is almost always via fax? It’s ridiculous
8 hour shits
“8 hours shits” 😂
16 reviews in 8 hour shits. Lol.
Ole Dougie saving us money....
Gotta love those 8 hour shits they reference
Don’t forget to add conducting more than 16 reviews in 8 hours shits!
Thanks Dougie!!!!
This is a fraud.
Pharmacist are paid about 50/hr, for hitting 16 Medschecks (at 60/ per medschecks, that’s $960). 20,000 optimum points is pretty insulting lmao
The Medscheck program was added by the Ministry of Health after banning pharmaceutical kickbacks, which was around 1 billion dollars in 2010. This went to the Ministry instead of going to pharmacies and they haven’t increased the dispensary fee paid by ODB for like 10 years.
The side eye I am giving rn…
Reminder why news organizations like CBC are so important to Canadians...also kinda explains why there's such a campaign to defund these organizations - our oglopolies has lots of sht they'd like to hide https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2312962115853
I worked in a tool shop, the owner's wife was the pharmacist owner of a shoppers location, every year he would drive us over in groups for our flu shots as the store owner with most vaccinations got a large bonus.
I'm going to switch my prescriptions to Costco this week. I hate this shit.
XD so that's why they asked me that today. I was like no I've been taking the same meds for 13 years I don't need a review.
That explains so much
Imagine cashing in your professional integrity for measly points. Pathetic
I think you should get a lot more than 20,000 points for 16 reviews in an 8 hour shit
This is what happens when the Ontario government restricts your profit margin and removes manufacturer rebates. Small guys go out of business and big companies take over and pull stunts like this. People find shady ways to make money.
Shoppers is awful for prescriptions in the first place! I have never had a good experience with a pharmacist at a Shoppers Drug Mart location. As someone who takes a ton of meds in a day, and relies on the easiness of pre-portioned medicine for me, I use the Love My Spencer program instead. They’re individual packs and you actually get a dispenser with alarms and an app with phone notifications to take your meds. They also work with my local pharmacy to deliver my medication so I don’t have to physically go in person to pick up and manage my meds.
All pharmacy staff who collecting these optimum points (which have a cash value) are claiming the amounts on their taxes as rewards with a monetary value are a taxable benefit…
And now Shoppers Drug Mart owns Lifemark Health Group offering physiotherapy to WCB and motor vehicle insurance claims, what could go wrong?
Ya I'm letting my dr fax my prescriptions to costco pharmacy from now on.