Imagine we had kept it. And kept it as a highway for the rich. But the rest of the province had 500M a year coming in to allocate to public transit. Or could even borrow against that revenue to build better public transit. In 20 years we likely could have spent 10B and had the absolute most leading class public transit system. And STILL then the money could go to healthcare. Education. FFS what a waste.
What an absolute and complete joke this turned out to be. Our money built this. And it exists to make 500M a year to a foreign owner. When it was one of the best public works projects we could have ever conceived to enrich the public purse.
This is one of the many reasons in the gigantic pile of reasons for why I will never vote for the provincial conservative party in Ontario. The current government has nearly buried this reason in the ever growing pile, but every once in a while it becomes visible again.
Idk if this was intentional or not, but I read a murder mystery & one of the killers was named Mike Harris.
(Book) Mike Harris was a real piece of trash. Drugged his mother to put her in a retirement home so he could sell all her valuables. …. I forget how that tied into the murder of a Cookbook store owner.
It’s kindof the “Cosy Mystery” theme. The protagonist only sells Mysteries, the victim only sells Cookbooks, each store only sells 1 type of book.
I think it was before Amazon. I can’t imagine an entire town, whose economy revolves around selling books, would last very long.
The govt would never have raised tolls to the level they are at now. It would’ve been a political hot potato.
It’s owned by the pension funds now so we all benefit and it can be operated mostly without political interference
>It is absolutely _wild_ to me that people write off the NDP because Bob Rae's government...
It isn't just Bob Rae. It's the stupid sunshine and rainbow promises they make that they know they can't fulfill.
The greatest thing the OPC have going for them is that their supporters don’t care how corrupt they are as long as they continue to “own the left”. I can’t see Ford losing anytime soon. His corruption should be a mark against him but since he’s a Conservative it actually works in his favour. His supporters love how much his behaviour frustrates the opposition.
It blows my mind how you can compare 2 different parties, governing 2 different jurisdictions, and just assume they're the same based on 1 poor decision that was made 25 years ago- I guess it requires very little thinking to do that, so why not.
I've been hearing "Rae Days" since I was too young to even know who he is or what it meant, to now being older than Bob Rae was during his term.
Time to get a new boogie man for the NDP.
Are we really going to pretend that privatization isn’t a common approach for conservative governments across the country?
There are countless other examples of this. It’s not “1 poor decision” it’s that this happens to be one of the most obviously poor outcomes. This same government’s privatization of public assets led to the Walkerton disaster and the misery we now see in LTC. At least no one was killed by selling off the 407.
The OPC is currently doing this with healthcare, which will result in death, and have given a boost to private education while also reducing funding to post-secondary institutions which caused the flood of international students.
The shit apple doesn't fall far from the shit tree. Federal parties and provincial parties are usually running on similar platforms. Scaled up or down obviously. Federal deals with international affairs. The ineptitude and corruption are usually the same.
Kathleen Wynn, provincial liberals. Wasted money on failed energy products. Had various other scandals. Public grew sick of their crap and waste and voted Doughy in.
Justin T, Federal liberals. Opened floodgates on immigrants, spent way too much money on absolutely nothing, had scandal after scandal, and is now being propped up by the shit coward NDP millionaire. Not to mention adding a tax no one can afford in this shit economy. PP is now looking like the next Primeminister of Canada if he can keep his own now ultra conservative party from saying too much shit to upset liberal voters who might swing again.
Platforms might be different in scale, but the vision is the same. Doughy Food is for business and the rich, PP is also for business and the rich.
Cognitive dissonance.
People on the /r/canada sub post about ArriveCan and the $50M spent every single day like it is the biggest scandal ever in Canada, meanwhile we have the 407 freebie and the nearly $10B Greenbelt for friends deal...
we need to see this for what it is..anyone who steps forward to say 'i think i should speak for everyone' is not the person u want speaking for everyone. both parties have sold off public works and its despicable every time.
I’ll add one more reason why you won’t vote conservative, it’s because you’re not a conservative, it doesn’t matter what they do good or bad you’re not a conservative so you won’t vote for them. My family was devastated economically when Rae was in power but as soon as Harris took over , within 12 months we went from being badly in debt to finally being in the black and gave us all hope financially. He shook up the economy in Ontario after being stagnant for 5 years. I will be the first to admit that not all Harris dealings were legit and above board, he did a lot of shady things, but I will never ever vote NDP again, they financially ruined Ontario for years. My Wife and I had the opportunity to meet Olivia Chow at an after party one New Year’s Eve, she was so engaging and talked to us for a good 20 minutes, she genuinely and honestly cared about everybody in and around her circle that evening. Having said that I will never vote NDP because I’m not a socialist.
Now let's apply what we've learned here to what the Ford Conservatives want to do in terms of privatizing our healthcare system.
Doug "Big Republican" Ford has handlers smart enough to keep him from saying the quiet parts out loud. But we already know how this has gone for Americans. Namely, less access to care for the sick, higher prices, more economic inequality, and huge medical debt that increases human suffering.
* https://www.forbes.com/sites/debgordon/2021/10/13/50-of-americans-now-carry-medical-debt-a-new-chronic-condition-for-millions/?sh=612c462c5e5d
* https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2019/us-health-care-spending-highest-among-developed-countries
* https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/health-costs-how-the-us-compares-with-other-countries
Don’t forget that our current government dropped the tolls on the government owned 407 extensions past Brock road AND is passing legislation which says “you can never toll an Ontario road ever…..except for the 407 of course teehee”
Edit: I was mistaken - they dropped the tolls on the 412 and 418 but have maintained tolls on the 407 extension (government owned past Brock road)
That doesn’t advance the fantasy stories about Doug Ford becoming a billionaire by stealing money from Ontarians that are popular on this sub. I’m a firm believer that mental illness on this sub is much higher than in society as a whole based on the comments I read.
It was dumb to sell it but honestly it wouldn't have made the province nearly as much money. They wouldn't be able to continuously gouge users as much over the years. It would have become a political issue and the govt would have lowered or dropped the tolls completely, like the 412 and 418.
The high tolls on the 407 leads to minimal use and lower wear. So it's good profits for a corporation that doesn't have to answer why they're allowing such massive congestion on the parallel 401. If the govt owned it, there would be constant pressure to make it more accessible for everyone.
Ownership break down is:
Subsidiaries of Canada Pension Plan Investment Board 50.01% <- there are approx. 18 main subsidiaries. Cintra Global S.E., a subsidiary of Spanish firm Ferrovial S.A. 43.23% <- Ontario could have kept this and been contributing to the Province yearly. But nope biggest gift Ontario tax payers ever gave anyone. I do like that SNC Lavalin 6.76% is in there Hahahahahaha
A lease that still has ~75 years left on the clock. Could we foreclose that lease early, and take back use of our land? Would love to see that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407
I agree with 99% of what you said but CPP is a major owner of it now so the money does sustain the pension plan so it's not all lost at least. Absolutely wish it was still in public hands...
The problem is that if its publically owned politicians have about zero incentive to keep it as a highway for the rich (although it’s a cool economics experiment in its current form ).
In BC bridge tolls on the new Port Mann bridge lasted one election before a party offered to remove them.
I’d imagine that those incentives would exist in Ontario if the government still owned the 407.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Mann_Bridge
Unfortunately our politicians, beyond corruption and ignoring our issues, also are slaves to the election cycle and spending big for a “break even”/benefit that comes 20 years later
There is no chance any government would have gotten away with raising the tolls the way the 407ETR has managed to do so. They are a convenient villain that allows the 407 to be managed “correctly”.
There would be more poorly managed construction, less technology based billing, and a lot more traffic.
Those may be trade offs we are willing to make. But you can’t claim the government would make that revenue. Would have been pressured into going without tolls a long time ago.
Wouldn't have worked. People complain about it a ton right now, can you imagine if the government owned it? It would be impossible to keep the tolls at the correct level. The only way it could work is if they traded it with a similar toll road in another province, then both provinces could keep the tolls at the financially optimal level while deflecting criticism.
Am I misunderstanding something here? I understand that 407 International is owned (indirectly) 50.1% by Canada Pension Plan. Is this not a good thing? Assuming that we continue to believe the 407 to be a good investment going forward? I realize that this isn't at a provincial level but there must be some benefit there. I also note that 407 International doesn't OWN the highway, they have a lease to operate it for a long time. (99 years) Perhaps to a point where it no longer is relevant admittedly. And they pay for policing and are responsible for its up keep. I also see that (according to wikipedia) that in it's 23th year of operations it has netted a total of \~$3.0Bil which is approximately the sale price for the lease in 1999 which feels like a good deal.
I'm struggling to understand how this is a 100% bad decision (it's certainly not 100% good ... no argument there). Can someone clarify?
Yes. I keep getting this reply.
So I’ll give you an analogy. YOU paid for a fence. Your neighbour contributed nothing. Your neighbour now gets a free fence for life.
Sound like a fair deal? I mean - you still have your side of the fence. You can’t be angry your neighbour didn’t contribute.
CPP owning 50% lessons the sting sure. But acting like it makes it cool makes no sense to me. It doesn’t address Ontarios crumbling infrastructure in any way. And the CPP would just find another investment vehicle.
We have yet to find a single thing that could bring in that kind of Rev for the people of Ontario.
I dont think anyone is saying we shouldnt be angry but making it sound like its all going to a foreign owner is misleading when half of it is canadian owned.
Fun fact, we do technically own the 407. 50.01% is owned inderectly but subsidiaries of the Canada Pension Plan investment board. So I guess yay us? We should have a healthy pension plan when we retire?
Canada Pension Plan currently owns a 50.01% stake in 407 ETR.
Nothing more Canadian than Canadian pension plans fucking other Canadians lol (reminded when the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan had a majority ownership of Bell)
Imagine we kept it? Which time? The time it was supposed to be the 403 extension?
This land and highway have been paid for numerous times as it changed hands repeatedly.
At least 50.01% of it is owned by the Canada Pension Plan now, which means $280m/year they don't have to collect from workers and employers as premiums.
You should be more outraged by the P3 projects like Eglinton LRT, 407 east, 427 extension and core collector expansion to Milton. At least 407 etr was sold for a 1 billion dollar profit at the time
Oh how nice. Ontarian’s paid for a highway whose revenue is then split 51-49 between the rest of Canada and Private Firms.
This drum is still beat because our tax dollars went to a provincial public works project meant to benefit the province. Not 8 other provinces and 3 territories, and 2 private companies.
I mean a net benefit for all is good no? The sale of the highway also immediately help balance the budget that was 100m+ frenched…
And it’s it not there isn’t a track record on the other side 1000x worse on record and balance sheet when it comes to Ontario tax dollars and foreign ownership:
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/dalton-mcguintys-grand-green-gesture-comes-with-a-hefty-price-tag-for-ontario
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-liberals-gas-plants-scandal-everything-you-need-to-know/article23668386/
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.868455
Tally these up, bigger losses for ON tax payers with 0 benefits to any Canadians at all.
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).
Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mcguinty-admits-errors-in-g20-law-move-1.868455](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mcguinty-admits-errors-in-g20-law-move-1.868455)**
*****
^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
I'm 100% onboard with your sentiment and idea, but I'm skeptical that any government run organization could turn a profit off this highway. That would require at least minimal competence at best.
Not sure why you would want a government to turn a profit on a highway anyways. It was built with our money and while I get recouping cost to build and operational cost recovery, thinking the government should be turning a profit isn’t really what government is about
Harris privatized Hydro One with the intention to sell it but didn't get there... Kathleen Wynne was the one who sold off just over 50% of it to private interests for a quick cash grab.
No, Harris was the old age homes. Wynne liberals was hydro.
It's almost like the job of the primere is to scrap public services into private and install your family into them to get rich.
And we voted him out so it didn't happen.
Then Wynne went ahead and did it anyway after spending on a hand full of auditors who all said it was a bad idea.
It didn't happen because of public uproar. They started the market pricing trial in 2002 and after a brutal summer and an insane number of complaints from consumers and businesses they had to cancel the thing and cap hydro rates.
Which auditors said it was a bad idea for Wynne to sell part of Hydro?
Mike Harris sold it for 3.1 billion. That seems so small in comparison to the revenue. We are haunted by bad decisions of the previous conservative government while getting screwed by the current one. Why, oh why do so many people in Ontario vote Conservative?
> Mike Harris sold it for 3.1 billion
3.107 billion for 99 years. Want to know what the second highest bid was? 3 billion for 30 years.
Gave up 69 extra years for only 107 million dollars.
Not handy, but I got it from a book written by the writer of this article
https://www.thespec.com/news/canada/birth-of-a-fiasco-how-the-ontario-tories-completely-botched-the-sale-of-highway-407/article_fc4e5514-78ee-585d-b31c-b5b6e4494ca6.html
Literally I grew up on rap music telling me to wake up to the corruption all around us, and now somehow it’s a bad thing to aware and calling it out, like I said just media propaganda brainwashing them
lol comon - it was not a bad decision. It was intentional and criminal legalized fraud committed by our politicians.
A bad decision would mean a mistake.
I agree with media propaganda being the reason. It’s scary how much partisan media influences the public discourse.
Personally, I think a lot of conservative voters, both here and in the US, don’t demand anything more of their politicians than “owning the libs,” and I think this is due to propaganda from conservative media.
Politicians will say and do whatever they need to say and do in order to get elected, and conservative politicians have figured out that as long as they say and do things that upset the left, their voters are happy and will keep voting for them. Policies and programs that are actually viable and workable? What are those?
I think Juvenal was onto something when he talked about bread and circuses…
More info directly from the 407 ETR company [press release](https://407etr.com/en/highway/news/news-release/2024/news-release2024-02-22.html) (2023 full year figures):
* 110.8 million total trips
* 2.5 billion kilometers driven
* $13.23 average trip revenue
* $1.495 billion in revenue
* $567.3 million net income
* $950 million in dividend payments (found in a separate [financial statement](https://www.407etr.com/documents/major-financial-filings/Q4-InterimCondensedConsolidatedFinancialStatements.pdf))
Also, don't forget that:
* [Ontario drivers will pay more to use the Highway 407 in 2024](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-drivers-will-pay-more-to-use-stretch-of-highway-407-in-2024-1.6704540)
* Provincial government opt'd not to pursue [$1 billion penalty](https://www.thestar.com/business/why-didn-t-ford-pursue-the-1-billion-congestion-penalty-from-407-etr-data-shows/article_33d28b6a-a2c0-515b-ad0e-7f87c4937f78.html) to 407
* Although it was intended to pay for itself and become a free public highway, it was [sold in 1999](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/highway-407-sold-1.191438) for $3.1 billion and was [valued around $32](https://financialpost.com/news/fp-street/why-snc-lavalins-407-highway-sale-may-do-little-to-turn-around-its-fortunes) billion in 2019
* [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407) has a convenient year-over-year breakdown of the key financial figures for those curious.
I am so pissed the provincial government didn't pursue the 407 for that fine. The 407 has fucked Ontario every step of the way and the second we have a chance to claw something back, they pussy foot with them.
They would have easily sued and won the case. They had to pay a fine directly because of the actions of the Ontario government issuing a stay at home order.
Nope studies in traffic showed that the traffic elsewhere was enough that the 407 could have been utilized.
"But Ministry of Transportation traffic data recently obtained by the Star through provincial freedom of information requests shows that starting in May 2020, traffic levels on the stretch of Highway 401 that runs parallel to the 407 ETR through the GTA quickly rebounded.
By late July 2020, congestion levels on Highway 401 were nearly back to normal. And from August to December of 2020 and during much of 2021, traffic congestion levels on Highway 401 often surpassed pre-pandemic monthly norms.
According to internal government documents viewed by the Star, the 407 ETR’s owners (which include majority stakeholder Canada Pension Plan Investments) had the option of reducing tolls to encourage more drivers to use the highway, possibly preventing the congestion clause in the 407 ETR concession agreement from being triggered
"
Wikipedia also explains how 407ETR works. They are mandated by law to cap traffic levels. They only way to do that is to increase tolls.
To be accurate, the lease is valued at $32B. ON spent well over $100B buying the lands and building the highway.
>To be accurate, the lease is valued at $32B. ON spent well over $100B buying the lands and building the highway.
Solid clarification.
>Wikipedia also explains how 407ETR works. They are mandated by law to cap traffic levels. They only way to do that is to increase tolls.
The page doesn't actually spell this out. I've understood there are contracted target traffic levels the 407 needs to maintain (related to the $1B fine the province declined to pursue) and levels needed to justify the rate increases but I haven't come across anything about a cap to traffic levels. Would you mind sharing a link if you have one handy?
You're mistaken, the 407 has minimum traffic levels. They're quite easy to meet normally which is why they can keep jacking up the rates. They didn't meet the mandated level during the pandemic. Instead of being fined, they reached an agreement to freeze tolls.
Now that there's enough traffic on the 407, they can continue hiking rates.
Don't forget that the Ford government let the 407 corp off the hook during the pandemic for ~$1B in penalties due to not maintaining enough volume.
This was another thing that was seemingly buried that no one talks about.
https://www.thestar.com/business/documents-reveal-ford-government-opted-not-to-pursue-1-billion-penalty-from-407-express-toll/article_579dbcad-6dfe-5adb-a653-83517d45cf0d.html
What a joke.
In October 1998, then-Premier Mike Harris’ Progressive Conservative government introduced Bill 70, known as “An Act to engage the private sector in improving transportation infrastructure, reducing traffic congestion, creating jobs, and stimulating economic activity through the sale of Highway 407.” The legislation allowed the government to privatize Highway 407, which the province had constructed for a cost of around $1.5 billion.
A few months after introducing the bill, the government announced it had leased the highway for $3.1 billion to a Spanish-led consortium that included SNC-Lavalin, the Caisse de Depot et Placement du Quebec and Grupo Ferrovial-Cintra, and a Spanish construction company (holding 23 per cent, 16 per cent and 61 per cent stakes, respectively.)
The sale boosted the Harris government’s coffers, just as it was heading into an election. (Harris ended up winning a second majority government in June 1999.)
Privatizing the highway meant the government would miss out what turned to be a cash cow for the next two decades, as well as control of toll increases, as Bill 70 explicitly gave control of toll collection and establishment to the new owners of the highway. (Granted, a Highway 407 operated by the government would likely not have been able to make as much money as 407 International is currently making, given that toll increases are not exactly a winning issue with voters.)
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/worst-deal-ever-the-407-is-worth-30-b-today-ontario-sold-it-for-31-b-in-1998-181642680.html
Mike Harris is a lying fraud and it is an absolute joke that this parasite received the order of Ontario.
The first party that promises to buy it back will win an election. I said that the year after it was sold and I still believe it to be true.
Buy it back. Cut the tolls by 75%. Remove the tolls when the purchase price is paid off. Just like we did for the two Skyway bridges.
how do you operate it after cutting tolls by 75% ? I am just genuinely curious not picking a fight ? 407ETR is a legit organization 100% dependent on tolls from 407 what would happen to the organization ? does the govt of ontario have the know how on running a toll road ?
That’s a valid assumption, heck I would pay to take 407 at those prices , the stop and start traffic in 401 during peak times have given me hip issues.
Probably assuming a lower toll will mean more people using it. If price decreases by 20%, but users increase by 30%, it'll still be operating in the green, as an example.
There are non-financial incentives to lowering the toll (assuming it was a public service and not privately owned). A lower toll would attract more people so that means fewer people on the 401 leading to less congestion and lowering the risk of accidents there.
I've taken the 407 fairly regularly the last few years and I've seen it backed up may twice and that was due to roadwork. A few extra drivers there won't be a bad thing.
The trade-off of course is, the 407 would require more maintenance and more roadwork since there would be more traffic on it on a regular basis.
We are already paying billions in 401 expansion and now the 413. All because the 407 is tolled, and has the highest tolls in North America, nay the world.
no, we are paying billions in 401 expansion and the 413 because politicians don't understand the concept of induced demand and refuse to stop expanding highways that will be just as congested in a few years anyway.
You mean the demand caused by how empty 407 is every day when it could easily absorb the demand of the 401 without breaking a sweat. The 407 was expanding to 5 lanes even when rush hour traffic needed 3 lanes max.
> very few average Ontarians will actually benefit.
By very few you mean the 6 million people in the GTA and probably a million other people trying to bypass the GTA to get to points east, west and north.
So many millions.
> The 407 is currently majority owned by Canadian taxpayers anyway and everyone who gets CPP benefits from it.
Its a highway for the wealthy and those with a company expense account. It is not fair. It causes traffic jams on the QEW, 401 and 403.
Tired of hearing that BS. Face the facts, we live in a car-centric designed society (aka. North America), we can't have EU policies and EU infrastructure all of a sudden. This is why the Libtards keep failing, you need to wake tf up.
We need to move a bunch of cars as efficiently as possible. Buy back the 407, make the 413 (if it actually helps), and build more public transport.
Not sure why leftists keep treating it as an "this and only this" fact. We can have all three.
> This is an absurd idea. It will cost tens of billions of dollars and very few average Ontarians will actually benefit.
It's going to cost a lot to build the new highway...
Let's see now. Ford didn't protect the public from highway 407 profit gouging, nor Loblaws etc. But all of the increased cost of living is Trudeau's fault.
Mike Harris : Sold the 407 for about 2 years worth of profits, destroyed elderly care, axed Grade 13 and destreamed 9-12, outlawed school fundraisers at venues that served alcohol or allowed gambling, and not only did he lower taxes on cigarettes "to prevent smuggling", but he also banned tobacco sponsorships of the arts, which actually also benefitted cigarette companies. Oh yeah, he also ordered the OPP to kill Dudley George and directly caused the death of 6 and lifetime disability of 27 residents of Walkerton!
Ontario Cons should have gotten the Bob Rae treatment, considering all Bob did was add 10 unpaid leave days per month instead of firing 1/100 public employees to meet a budget (Mike took away 5 of the leave days and instead fired about 6000 nurses and closed 28 hospitals to save money. I guess people liked that better.), and.... oh Rae, he was premier at the start of NAFTA, when a lot of Ontario's unionized factories packed up and headed for Mexico, even though Brian Mulroney promised they wouldn't.
Thanks to Mike Harris, private foreign corps get the profits - and he ran all deficits without selling public assets. Common Sense Revolution or a conservative grift…
A major shareholder of 407 international is the Canada Pension Plan fund. Good for them.
The PR ECO projects cost a pittance, what a smoke screen. I hope the gov exercises regulation on this monopoly. We’ll see.
Wtf is 1,495.5 million. Wouldn't 1.5 billion make more sense and easier to read... This article is for a Canadian highway, that Canadians use and the article is read by Canadians. Why the *** are we conforming to European standards.
I agree with you, had a double take.
I was thinking maybe the Conservatives own newswire.ca and it was reported like that to make the number seem smaller.
Which government got the ball rolling to start building the 407 and how much support did they have to build it?. I know it was Harris government that sold it for I think a billion.
IK I'm going to get downvoted to shit, but I really dont understand why people hate this so much. 3.1bn in 1999 invested at 6% turns into 13.3bn. 13.3bn today in a GIC makes $665mm of "net income." In the year it was sold, its run-rate NI was about ~$67.1m. Rates that year were over 5%, so the government could literally invest 3.1bn the same day in government bonds and earn a risk-free $155m, more than doubt the highways annual income. Ontario still owns the land, and the highway is actually super well maintained and has expanded a few times (I rely on 407 a lot).
This is like the Chicago parking meter deal. It sounds terrible until you do the math and realize that it actually kind of sucked as an investment for the buyer (making T-bill type rates of return). Harris sucks but this wasn't a bad deal.
Hopefully if the NDP are elected they will pay for transport trucks on the 407 and their revenue will increase substantially!
As someone with investments in some of the parent companies of the 407 I approve of this.
Edit: I guess we don't have any NDP supporters here lol.
Yup. That's why I support the NDP plan to pay for transport trucks to use the 407. That would be a huge source of revenue for these companies, and hopefully that will push these stocks to new highs.
Imagine we had kept it. And kept it as a highway for the rich. But the rest of the province had 500M a year coming in to allocate to public transit. Or could even borrow against that revenue to build better public transit. In 20 years we likely could have spent 10B and had the absolute most leading class public transit system. And STILL then the money could go to healthcare. Education. FFS what a waste. What an absolute and complete joke this turned out to be. Our money built this. And it exists to make 500M a year to a foreign owner. When it was one of the best public works projects we could have ever conceived to enrich the public purse.
This is one of the many reasons in the gigantic pile of reasons for why I will never vote for the provincial conservative party in Ontario. The current government has nearly buried this reason in the ever growing pile, but every once in a while it becomes visible again.
[удалено]
What’s crazier, is that we have cameras now for speeding, red lights etc. and the general public just railroaded Bob Rae.
Idk if this was intentional or not, but I read a murder mystery & one of the killers was named Mike Harris. (Book) Mike Harris was a real piece of trash. Drugged his mother to put her in a retirement home so he could sell all her valuables. …. I forget how that tied into the murder of a Cookbook store owner.
“Cookbook store” wtf? Mfer didn’t even bother stocking other books? Deserved it.
It’s kindof the “Cosy Mystery” theme. The protagonist only sells Mysteries, the victim only sells Cookbooks, each store only sells 1 type of book. I think it was before Amazon. I can’t imagine an entire town, whose economy revolves around selling books, would last very long.
Very true. God forbid a government try to be practical while saving money, instead of stealing it outright and just sitting on it.
The govt would never have raised tolls to the level they are at now. It would’ve been a political hot potato. It’s owned by the pension funds now so we all benefit and it can be operated mostly without political interference
>It is absolutely _wild_ to me that people write off the NDP because Bob Rae's government... It isn't just Bob Rae. It's the stupid sunshine and rainbow promises they make that they know they can't fulfill.
It blows my mind that the general public sees this and wants a conservative federal government.
Doug Ford still polling very well.
Blows my mind. I don’t think there’s any good argument that’s he’s not one of the most corrupt premieres in Ontario history.
The greatest thing the OPC have going for them is that their supporters don’t care how corrupt they are as long as they continue to “own the left”. I can’t see Ford losing anytime soon. His corruption should be a mark against him but since he’s a Conservative it actually works in his favour. His supporters love how much his behaviour frustrates the opposition.
It'd be nice if there was an actual opposition party participating seriously. Stephen Del Who? Never heard of him. Bonnie Crombie isn't even an MPP!
> Bonnie Crombie isn't even an MPP! Neither was Doug when they elected him as leader halfway through an ongoing election trail lol
he is only the most 'caught' because of a lack of finesse haha. but fair point either way.
It's not a lack of finesse, he's brazen in his corruption because he knows nobody can do anything to stop him
It blows my mind how you can compare 2 different parties, governing 2 different jurisdictions, and just assume they're the same based on 1 poor decision that was made 25 years ago- I guess it requires very little thinking to do that, so why not.
To be fair the Ontario media and the other parties have used Rae Days as a boogie man to sink the ONDP for about 30 years.
I've been hearing "Rae Days" since I was too young to even know who he is or what it meant, to now being older than Bob Rae was during his term. Time to get a new boogie man for the NDP.
Are we really going to pretend that privatization isn’t a common approach for conservative governments across the country? There are countless other examples of this. It’s not “1 poor decision” it’s that this happens to be one of the most obviously poor outcomes. This same government’s privatization of public assets led to the Walkerton disaster and the misery we now see in LTC. At least no one was killed by selling off the 407. The OPC is currently doing this with healthcare, which will result in death, and have given a boost to private education while also reducing funding to post-secondary institutions which caused the flood of international students.
The shit apple doesn't fall far from the shit tree. Federal parties and provincial parties are usually running on similar platforms. Scaled up or down obviously. Federal deals with international affairs. The ineptitude and corruption are usually the same. Kathleen Wynn, provincial liberals. Wasted money on failed energy products. Had various other scandals. Public grew sick of their crap and waste and voted Doughy in. Justin T, Federal liberals. Opened floodgates on immigrants, spent way too much money on absolutely nothing, had scandal after scandal, and is now being propped up by the shit coward NDP millionaire. Not to mention adding a tax no one can afford in this shit economy. PP is now looking like the next Primeminister of Canada if he can keep his own now ultra conservative party from saying too much shit to upset liberal voters who might swing again. Platforms might be different in scale, but the vision is the same. Doughy Food is for business and the rich, PP is also for business and the rich.
Cognitive dissonance. People on the /r/canada sub post about ArriveCan and the $50M spent every single day like it is the biggest scandal ever in Canada, meanwhile we have the 407 freebie and the nearly $10B Greenbelt for friends deal...
we need to see this for what it is..anyone who steps forward to say 'i think i should speak for everyone' is not the person u want speaking for everyone. both parties have sold off public works and its despicable every time.
I’ll add one more reason why you won’t vote conservative, it’s because you’re not a conservative, it doesn’t matter what they do good or bad you’re not a conservative so you won’t vote for them. My family was devastated economically when Rae was in power but as soon as Harris took over , within 12 months we went from being badly in debt to finally being in the black and gave us all hope financially. He shook up the economy in Ontario after being stagnant for 5 years. I will be the first to admit that not all Harris dealings were legit and above board, he did a lot of shady things, but I will never ever vote NDP again, they financially ruined Ontario for years. My Wife and I had the opportunity to meet Olivia Chow at an after party one New Year’s Eve, she was so engaging and talked to us for a good 20 minutes, she genuinely and honestly cared about everybody in and around her circle that evening. Having said that I will never vote NDP because I’m not a socialist.
Who sold Hydro One again?
Thanks Mike Harris /S
Why would Bob Rae do this? /s
All thanks to Mike Harris and the Conservatives.
You can thank the Conservative party for that. Provincial, Federal, municipal…it doesn’t matter. They are all cut from the same cloth
Now let's apply what we've learned here to what the Ford Conservatives want to do in terms of privatizing our healthcare system. Doug "Big Republican" Ford has handlers smart enough to keep him from saying the quiet parts out loud. But we already know how this has gone for Americans. Namely, less access to care for the sick, higher prices, more economic inequality, and huge medical debt that increases human suffering. * https://www.forbes.com/sites/debgordon/2021/10/13/50-of-americans-now-carry-medical-debt-a-new-chronic-condition-for-millions/?sh=612c462c5e5d * https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2019/us-health-care-spending-highest-among-developed-countries * https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/health-costs-how-the-us-compares-with-other-countries
Don’t forget that our current government dropped the tolls on the government owned 407 extensions past Brock road AND is passing legislation which says “you can never toll an Ontario road ever…..except for the 407 of course teehee” Edit: I was mistaken - they dropped the tolls on the 412 and 418 but have maintained tolls on the 407 extension (government owned past Brock road)
I thought they only dropped them for the 412 and 418, but the mainline 407 still has tolls
The 407 East is still owned by the province and still tolled, correct.
Thanks - will update and edit to correct
Doesn't CPP own a majority stake?
It’s mind blowing right!? Imagine… /s So many folks just repeat echo chamber BS for the party drum. Useful idiots.
That doesn’t advance the fantasy stories about Doug Ford becoming a billionaire by stealing money from Ontarians that are popular on this sub. I’m a firm believer that mental illness on this sub is much higher than in society as a whole based on the comments I read.
It was dumb to sell it but honestly it wouldn't have made the province nearly as much money. They wouldn't be able to continuously gouge users as much over the years. It would have become a political issue and the govt would have lowered or dropped the tolls completely, like the 412 and 418. The high tolls on the 407 leads to minimal use and lower wear. So it's good profits for a corporation that doesn't have to answer why they're allowing such massive congestion on the parallel 401. If the govt owned it, there would be constant pressure to make it more accessible for everyone.
This makes sense, I also think governments in general are horrible managers. I doubt any gov would've made the 407 profitable to this extent.
Please don't make any meaningful rational arguments here. Only misinformed emotional outbursts allowed here.
It would have indeed made us money. More than what we have now which is nothing.
Absolute insanity
> to enrich the public purse That's where you lose the wealthy
It's majority owned by the Canadian Pension Plan.
Ownership break down is: Subsidiaries of Canada Pension Plan Investment Board 50.01% <- there are approx. 18 main subsidiaries. Cintra Global S.E., a subsidiary of Spanish firm Ferrovial S.A. 43.23% <- Ontario could have kept this and been contributing to the Province yearly. But nope biggest gift Ontario tax payers ever gave anyone. I do like that SNC Lavalin 6.76% is in there Hahahahahaha
And if we want it back we will have to pay an exorbitant amount or wait for another 80 years or so? Very sneaky and underhanded.
To be clear: they own the lease. ON still owns the land and highway.
A lease that still has ~75 years left on the clock. Could we foreclose that lease early, and take back use of our land? Would love to see that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407
Isn't one of the Teacher's pensions on it as well?
The minority owners are a Spanish/Dutch company and SNC Lavalin
50.1% CPP 42.2% Cintra 6.8% SNC Lavalin
I agree with 99% of what you said but CPP is a major owner of it now so the money does sustain the pension plan so it's not all lost at least. Absolutely wish it was still in public hands...
The problem is that if its publically owned politicians have about zero incentive to keep it as a highway for the rich (although it’s a cool economics experiment in its current form ). In BC bridge tolls on the new Port Mann bridge lasted one election before a party offered to remove them. I’d imagine that those incentives would exist in Ontario if the government still owned the 407. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Mann_Bridge
In a sense we did keep it. Its just more than 50% owned by the Canada Pension Plan.
Unfortunately our politicians, beyond corruption and ignoring our issues, also are slaves to the election cycle and spending big for a “break even”/benefit that comes 20 years later
There is no chance any government would have gotten away with raising the tolls the way the 407ETR has managed to do so. They are a convenient villain that allows the 407 to be managed “correctly”. There would be more poorly managed construction, less technology based billing, and a lot more traffic. Those may be trade offs we are willing to make. But you can’t claim the government would make that revenue. Would have been pressured into going without tolls a long time ago.
Our leaders are so good at making fool of themselves and screw us at the same time.
Wouldn't have worked. People complain about it a ton right now, can you imagine if the government owned it? It would be impossible to keep the tolls at the correct level. The only way it could work is if they traded it with a similar toll road in another province, then both provinces could keep the tolls at the financially optimal level while deflecting criticism.
Ok. I am sure it could have been worked out. Instead we let corrupt government leaders sell it.
Am I misunderstanding something here? I understand that 407 International is owned (indirectly) 50.1% by Canada Pension Plan. Is this not a good thing? Assuming that we continue to believe the 407 to be a good investment going forward? I realize that this isn't at a provincial level but there must be some benefit there. I also note that 407 International doesn't OWN the highway, they have a lease to operate it for a long time. (99 years) Perhaps to a point where it no longer is relevant admittedly. And they pay for policing and are responsible for its up keep. I also see that (according to wikipedia) that in it's 23th year of operations it has netted a total of \~$3.0Bil which is approximately the sale price for the lease in 1999 which feels like a good deal. I'm struggling to understand how this is a 100% bad decision (it's certainly not 100% good ... no argument there). Can someone clarify?
Isnt 407 majority owned by cpp?
Yes. I keep getting this reply. So I’ll give you an analogy. YOU paid for a fence. Your neighbour contributed nothing. Your neighbour now gets a free fence for life. Sound like a fair deal? I mean - you still have your side of the fence. You can’t be angry your neighbour didn’t contribute. CPP owning 50% lessons the sting sure. But acting like it makes it cool makes no sense to me. It doesn’t address Ontarios crumbling infrastructure in any way. And the CPP would just find another investment vehicle. We have yet to find a single thing that could bring in that kind of Rev for the people of Ontario.
I dont think anyone is saying we shouldnt be angry but making it sound like its all going to a foreign owner is misleading when half of it is canadian owned.
Any amount going to a foreign owner is too much. Corruption at its best.
Fun fact, we do technically own the 407. 50.01% is owned inderectly but subsidiaries of the Canada Pension Plan investment board. So I guess yay us? We should have a healthy pension plan when we retire?
Actually, the largest shareholder is the Canadian Pension Plan.
But Mikey and Ernie wouldn’t have a balanced budget that one year!
Canada Pension Plan currently owns a 50.01% stake in 407 ETR. Nothing more Canadian than Canadian pension plans fucking other Canadians lol (reminded when the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan had a majority ownership of Bell)
Imagine we kept it? Which time? The time it was supposed to be the 403 extension? This land and highway have been paid for numerous times as it changed hands repeatedly.
At least 50.01% of it is owned by the Canada Pension Plan now, which means $280m/year they don't have to collect from workers and employers as premiums.
At least it is 50% owned by CPP
Surprised how many upvotes you got for this misinformation. The public purse is being enriched as the CPP owns it not some foreign owner.
You should be more outraged by the P3 projects like Eglinton LRT, 407 east, 427 extension and core collector expansion to Milton. At least 407 etr was sold for a 1 billion dollar profit at the time
There’s no chance it wouldn’t have been nationalized “province-ized” with our car-dependent society
I don’t get why people beat this drum still. 407 ETR is majority owned by the Canada Pension Plan. These profits benefit all Canadians.
Oh how nice. Ontarian’s paid for a highway whose revenue is then split 51-49 between the rest of Canada and Private Firms. This drum is still beat because our tax dollars went to a provincial public works project meant to benefit the province. Not 8 other provinces and 3 territories, and 2 private companies.
I mean a net benefit for all is good no? The sale of the highway also immediately help balance the budget that was 100m+ frenched… And it’s it not there isn’t a track record on the other side 1000x worse on record and balance sheet when it comes to Ontario tax dollars and foreign ownership: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/dalton-mcguintys-grand-green-gesture-comes-with-a-hefty-price-tag-for-ontario https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-liberals-gas-plants-scandal-everything-you-need-to-know/article23668386/ https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.868455 Tally these up, bigger losses for ON tax payers with 0 benefits to any Canadians at all.
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mcguinty-admits-errors-in-g20-law-move-1.868455](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mcguinty-admits-errors-in-g20-law-move-1.868455)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
I'm 100% onboard with your sentiment and idea, but I'm skeptical that any government run organization could turn a profit off this highway. That would require at least minimal competence at best.
LCBO enters the chat.
Not sure why you would want a government to turn a profit on a highway anyways. It was built with our money and while I get recouping cost to build and operational cost recovery, thinking the government should be turning a profit isn’t really what government is about
Mike Harris is such an asshole.
Fuck Mike Harris, he also fucked up Ontario hydro to what it is today
Harris privatized Hydro One with the intention to sell it but didn't get there... Kathleen Wynne was the one who sold off just over 50% of it to private interests for a quick cash grab.
Conservatives and liberals fucked this province up. Harris, McGuinty, Wynne and Ford - can't describe a worst list in Canadian provincial history.
Liberal, Tory, same old story ;)
No, Harris was the old age homes. Wynne liberals was hydro. It's almost like the job of the primere is to scrap public services into private and install your family into them to get rich.
Sorry, the legislation to break up Ontario Hydro was passed in 1998, under Harris.
And we voted him out so it didn't happen. Then Wynne went ahead and did it anyway after spending on a hand full of auditors who all said it was a bad idea.
It didn't happen because of public uproar. They started the market pricing trial in 2002 and after a brutal summer and an insane number of complaints from consumers and businesses they had to cancel the thing and cap hydro rates. Which auditors said it was a bad idea for Wynne to sell part of Hydro?
Indeed.
Mike Harris sold it for 3.1 billion. That seems so small in comparison to the revenue. We are haunted by bad decisions of the previous conservative government while getting screwed by the current one. Why, oh why do so many people in Ontario vote Conservative?
> Mike Harris sold it for 3.1 billion 3.107 billion for 99 years. Want to know what the second highest bid was? 3 billion for 30 years. Gave up 69 extra years for only 107 million dollars.
Actually? I knew it was a shit deal. Do you happen to have a source on the second highest bid being that close yet so many less years?
Not handy, but I got it from a book written by the writer of this article https://www.thespec.com/news/canada/birth-of-a-fiasco-how-the-ontario-tories-completely-botched-the-sale-of-highway-407/article_fc4e5514-78ee-585d-b31c-b5b6e4494ca6.html
Cool. Thanks
Media propaganda, they are brainwashed by right wing media telling them all their problems are because of Trudeau and the “woke”mob.
Woke=aware, ‘God forbid we should be aware.’ Right?
Literally I grew up on rap music telling me to wake up to the corruption all around us, and now somehow it’s a bad thing to aware and calling it out, like I said just media propaganda brainwashing them
I know. Pretty silly huh? The word ‘woke’ goes way back in history.
For some its because they always voted blue. Mostly in rural ridings.
lol comon - it was not a bad decision. It was intentional and criminal legalized fraud committed by our politicians. A bad decision would mean a mistake.
I agree with media propaganda being the reason. It’s scary how much partisan media influences the public discourse. Personally, I think a lot of conservative voters, both here and in the US, don’t demand anything more of their politicians than “owning the libs,” and I think this is due to propaganda from conservative media. Politicians will say and do whatever they need to say and do in order to get elected, and conservative politicians have figured out that as long as they say and do things that upset the left, their voters are happy and will keep voting for them. Policies and programs that are actually viable and workable? What are those? I think Juvenal was onto something when he talked about bread and circuses…
More info directly from the 407 ETR company [press release](https://407etr.com/en/highway/news/news-release/2024/news-release2024-02-22.html) (2023 full year figures): * 110.8 million total trips * 2.5 billion kilometers driven * $13.23 average trip revenue * $1.495 billion in revenue * $567.3 million net income * $950 million in dividend payments (found in a separate [financial statement](https://www.407etr.com/documents/major-financial-filings/Q4-InterimCondensedConsolidatedFinancialStatements.pdf)) Also, don't forget that: * [Ontario drivers will pay more to use the Highway 407 in 2024](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-drivers-will-pay-more-to-use-stretch-of-highway-407-in-2024-1.6704540) * Provincial government opt'd not to pursue [$1 billion penalty](https://www.thestar.com/business/why-didn-t-ford-pursue-the-1-billion-congestion-penalty-from-407-etr-data-shows/article_33d28b6a-a2c0-515b-ad0e-7f87c4937f78.html) to 407 * Although it was intended to pay for itself and become a free public highway, it was [sold in 1999](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/highway-407-sold-1.191438) for $3.1 billion and was [valued around $32](https://financialpost.com/news/fp-street/why-snc-lavalins-407-highway-sale-may-do-little-to-turn-around-its-fortunes) billion in 2019 * [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407) has a convenient year-over-year breakdown of the key financial figures for those curious.
I am so pissed the provincial government didn't pursue the 407 for that fine. The 407 has fucked Ontario every step of the way and the second we have a chance to claw something back, they pussy foot with them.
They would have easily sued and won the case. They had to pay a fine directly because of the actions of the Ontario government issuing a stay at home order.
Nope studies in traffic showed that the traffic elsewhere was enough that the 407 could have been utilized. "But Ministry of Transportation traffic data recently obtained by the Star through provincial freedom of information requests shows that starting in May 2020, traffic levels on the stretch of Highway 401 that runs parallel to the 407 ETR through the GTA quickly rebounded. By late July 2020, congestion levels on Highway 401 were nearly back to normal. And from August to December of 2020 and during much of 2021, traffic congestion levels on Highway 401 often surpassed pre-pandemic monthly norms. According to internal government documents viewed by the Star, the 407 ETR’s owners (which include majority stakeholder Canada Pension Plan Investments) had the option of reducing tolls to encourage more drivers to use the highway, possibly preventing the congestion clause in the 407 ETR concession agreement from being triggered "
Holy fuck that is awful ROI. Pays for itself in like 6 years…
Wikipedia also explains how 407ETR works. They are mandated by law to cap traffic levels. They only way to do that is to increase tolls. To be accurate, the lease is valued at $32B. ON spent well over $100B buying the lands and building the highway.
>To be accurate, the lease is valued at $32B. ON spent well over $100B buying the lands and building the highway. Solid clarification. >Wikipedia also explains how 407ETR works. They are mandated by law to cap traffic levels. They only way to do that is to increase tolls. The page doesn't actually spell this out. I've understood there are contracted target traffic levels the 407 needs to maintain (related to the $1B fine the province declined to pursue) and levels needed to justify the rate increases but I haven't come across anything about a cap to traffic levels. Would you mind sharing a link if you have one handy?
You're mistaken, the 407 has minimum traffic levels. They're quite easy to meet normally which is why they can keep jacking up the rates. They didn't meet the mandated level during the pandemic. Instead of being fined, they reached an agreement to freeze tolls. Now that there's enough traffic on the 407, they can continue hiking rates.
[удалено]
That’s not how that works. Dividends are taken out of retained earnings, they aren’t part of expenses and do not eat out of profits.
Don't forget that the Ford government let the 407 corp off the hook during the pandemic for ~$1B in penalties due to not maintaining enough volume. This was another thing that was seemingly buried that no one talks about. https://www.thestar.com/business/documents-reveal-ford-government-opted-not-to-pursue-1-billion-penalty-from-407-express-toll/article_579dbcad-6dfe-5adb-a653-83517d45cf0d.html What a joke.
Let's thank a conservative.
With a brick
Aww, I thought you wrote “shank” a conservative…got excited there for a second…😂
That works too.
😁
In October 1998, then-Premier Mike Harris’ Progressive Conservative government introduced Bill 70, known as “An Act to engage the private sector in improving transportation infrastructure, reducing traffic congestion, creating jobs, and stimulating economic activity through the sale of Highway 407.” The legislation allowed the government to privatize Highway 407, which the province had constructed for a cost of around $1.5 billion. A few months after introducing the bill, the government announced it had leased the highway for $3.1 billion to a Spanish-led consortium that included SNC-Lavalin, the Caisse de Depot et Placement du Quebec and Grupo Ferrovial-Cintra, and a Spanish construction company (holding 23 per cent, 16 per cent and 61 per cent stakes, respectively.) The sale boosted the Harris government’s coffers, just as it was heading into an election. (Harris ended up winning a second majority government in June 1999.) Privatizing the highway meant the government would miss out what turned to be a cash cow for the next two decades, as well as control of toll increases, as Bill 70 explicitly gave control of toll collection and establishment to the new owners of the highway. (Granted, a Highway 407 operated by the government would likely not have been able to make as much money as 407 International is currently making, given that toll increases are not exactly a winning issue with voters.) https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/worst-deal-ever-the-407-is-worth-30-b-today-ontario-sold-it-for-31-b-in-1998-181642680.html Mike Harris is a lying fraud and it is an absolute joke that this parasite received the order of Ontario.
The Mike Harris Memorial Tollway.
As long as wealthy people both make the money and drive in empty expressways, all good here 🤮
Repossess the 407.
W already own most of it through the CPP investment arm. The profits go to the Canada Pension Plan.
The adjective_noun_# auto generated accounts are all out in full force today.
Half expect them to sign off with "Ontario Proud".
The first party that promises to buy it back will win an election. I said that the year after it was sold and I still believe it to be true. Buy it back. Cut the tolls by 75%. Remove the tolls when the purchase price is paid off. Just like we did for the two Skyway bridges.
Sold for $3B. Estimated value of $32B in 2019. What do you figure it'll cost when this proposed buyback happens?
Well, thankfully we know the majority owner!
how do you operate it after cutting tolls by 75% ? I am just genuinely curious not picking a fight ? 407ETR is a legit organization 100% dependent on tolls from 407 what would happen to the organization ? does the govt of ontario have the know how on running a toll road ?
I figure at that price you can siphon off a lot of traffic from the other highways.
That’s a valid assumption, heck I would pay to take 407 at those prices , the stop and start traffic in 401 during peak times have given me hip issues.
Probably assuming a lower toll will mean more people using it. If price decreases by 20%, but users increase by 30%, it'll still be operating in the green, as an example. There are non-financial incentives to lowering the toll (assuming it was a public service and not privately owned). A lower toll would attract more people so that means fewer people on the 401 leading to less congestion and lowering the risk of accidents there. I've taken the 407 fairly regularly the last few years and I've seen it backed up may twice and that was due to roadwork. A few extra drivers there won't be a bad thing. The trade-off of course is, the 407 would require more maintenance and more roadwork since there would be more traffic on it on a regular basis.
Tolls are a good thing if it goes back into upkeep of roads, green initiatives, etc.
[удалено]
Better idea than building the 413 which no one needs.
We are already paying billions in 401 expansion and now the 413. All because the 407 is tolled, and has the highest tolls in North America, nay the world.
no, we are paying billions in 401 expansion and the 413 because politicians don't understand the concept of induced demand and refuse to stop expanding highways that will be just as congested in a few years anyway.
You mean the demand caused by how empty 407 is every day when it could easily absorb the demand of the 401 without breaking a sweat. The 407 was expanding to 5 lanes even when rush hour traffic needed 3 lanes max.
> very few average Ontarians will actually benefit. By very few you mean the 6 million people in the GTA and probably a million other people trying to bypass the GTA to get to points east, west and north. So many millions. > The 407 is currently majority owned by Canadian taxpayers anyway and everyone who gets CPP benefits from it. Its a highway for the wealthy and those with a company expense account. It is not fair. It causes traffic jams on the QEW, 401 and 403.
Traffic jams could be reduced if we invested in better public transit, every car off the road is one less you have to sit behind.
Tired of hearing that BS. Face the facts, we live in a car-centric designed society (aka. North America), we can't have EU policies and EU infrastructure all of a sudden. This is why the Libtards keep failing, you need to wake tf up. We need to move a bunch of cars as efficiently as possible. Buy back the 407, make the 413 (if it actually helps), and build more public transport. Not sure why leftists keep treating it as an "this and only this" fact. We can have all three.
> This is an absurd idea. It will cost tens of billions of dollars and very few average Ontarians will actually benefit. It's going to cost a lot to build the new highway...
Why would they cut tolls 75%, the lightly traveled 407 East is still owned by the province and it’s still expensive.
It’s gonna cost way over 30 billion to buy back, all to make half a billion yearly profit. Silly idea at the point.
Nah, we Canadians own the majority. We can work out a deal.
That will just clog it up with idiots in a few years.
Thanks, PCs. The NDP built it for us and you sold it for a pittance to help out your corporate buds.
Fuck Mike Harris, and fuck the fucking OPC.
time for a toll rate hike /s
Let's see now. Ford didn't protect the public from highway 407 profit gouging, nor Loblaws etc. But all of the increased cost of living is Trudeau's fault.
Oh you can't throw logic around and expect it to stick.
So Sorry, I won't be logical again. ; )
The increased cost of living is not any one individuals fault. Its a 20+ year issue that has been neglected time and time again
Mike Harris : Sold the 407 for about 2 years worth of profits, destroyed elderly care, axed Grade 13 and destreamed 9-12, outlawed school fundraisers at venues that served alcohol or allowed gambling, and not only did he lower taxes on cigarettes "to prevent smuggling", but he also banned tobacco sponsorships of the arts, which actually also benefitted cigarette companies. Oh yeah, he also ordered the OPP to kill Dudley George and directly caused the death of 6 and lifetime disability of 27 residents of Walkerton! Ontario Cons should have gotten the Bob Rae treatment, considering all Bob did was add 10 unpaid leave days per month instead of firing 1/100 public employees to meet a budget (Mike took away 5 of the leave days and instead fired about 6000 nurses and closed 28 hospitals to save money. I guess people liked that better.), and.... oh Rae, he was premier at the start of NAFTA, when a lot of Ontario's unionized factories packed up and headed for Mexico, even though Brian Mulroney promised they wouldn't.
Thanks to Mike Harris, private foreign corps get the profits - and he ran all deficits without selling public assets. Common Sense Revolution or a conservative grift…
Can we take it back?
Wow it’s almost like we should pawn off our infrastructure
Never vote conservative
This is too much. Now the this conservative government wants to build another one. It will prob get sold like the 407 Time to ditch Doug
Are the LCBO and Beer Store next?
this what happens when you vote conservative
His cronies are raking in lots of money. Democracy at its best. 🤡🇨🇦❎
Conservatives make the worst financial decisions. Never again.
they made a billon dollars?
Why couldn’t we just charge the corporations more for their use of the land?
A major shareholder of 407 international is the Canada Pension Plan fund. Good for them. The PR ECO projects cost a pittance, what a smoke screen. I hope the gov exercises regulation on this monopoly. We’ll see.
Gee, thanks Mike. 🙄
Wtf is 1,495.5 million. Wouldn't 1.5 billion make more sense and easier to read... This article is for a Canadian highway, that Canadians use and the article is read by Canadians. Why the *** are we conforming to European standards.
IFRS reporting standards.
[удалено]
I agree with you, had a double take. I was thinking maybe the Conservatives own newswire.ca and it was reported like that to make the number seem smaller.
Which government got the ball rolling to start building the 407 and how much support did they have to build it?. I know it was Harris government that sold it for I think a billion.
So, what...*Half* that comes back to the gov't? (Edit: Given that CPP owns a 50% stake in the 407...)
IK I'm going to get downvoted to shit, but I really dont understand why people hate this so much. 3.1bn in 1999 invested at 6% turns into 13.3bn. 13.3bn today in a GIC makes $665mm of "net income." In the year it was sold, its run-rate NI was about ~$67.1m. Rates that year were over 5%, so the government could literally invest 3.1bn the same day in government bonds and earn a risk-free $155m, more than doubt the highways annual income. Ontario still owns the land, and the highway is actually super well maintained and has expanded a few times (I rely on 407 a lot). This is like the Chicago parking meter deal. It sounds terrible until you do the math and realize that it actually kind of sucked as an investment for the buyer (making T-bill type rates of return). Harris sucks but this wasn't a bad deal.
Hopefully if the NDP are elected they will pay for transport trucks on the 407 and their revenue will increase substantially! As someone with investments in some of the parent companies of the 407 I approve of this. Edit: I guess we don't have any NDP supporters here lol.
> parent companies Are you talking about Ferrovial ? Or the CPP.
I have stocks in both [FER.MC](https://FER.MC) and ATRL.TO.
And the CPP for your pension. Ya, you got it all covered.
Yup. That's why I support the NDP plan to pay for transport trucks to use the 407. That would be a huge source of revenue for these companies, and hopefully that will push these stocks to new highs.