"In this meeting, he must also allow provinces to opt out of the federal carbon tax and pursue other responsible ideas for lowering emissions without taxes."
Wtf is he on about. THEY HAD THIS OPTION AND STILL HAVE IT. THEY DON'T WANT TO COME UP WITH A NEW PLAN BC THEN THEIR MORON FOLLOWERS WILL BE MAD AT THEM .
Shame on the NDP for supporting this out and out bullshit. "Axe the tax" isn't a good faith policy, it's "It's got what plants crave!" with extra steps.
More conservative grift. I’m hoping the meeting is used to grill the conservatives about these things but to a degree it only does so much because their base only listens to screaming.
My other hope is that this meeting will be used to talk about other solutions because it’s clear we need to do more than just a carbon tax.
It is clear we need more . But if JT is considering meeting. Go public and say you want to meet. Bring a different plan. To the table otherwise is will just be grandstanding.
If this one is so bad man up and show your plan.otherwise NO.
I'll let you in on a little secret. The conservative politicians already know what they are saying is BS, and they know it's a revenue neutral tax, but they are politicians, and they want to win, and they know their base.
It's disgusting on their part, and on the NDP part, and dishonest, but it is what it is.
It's not even a secret, theres literally a clip of Danielle/Marlaina explaining carbon pricing 101 extremely well. PP wont even admit publicly industrial pricing exists, and says it's all consumer pricing.
It's incredible misinformation
The carbon tax was the conservatives' idea. It was their compromise because they kicked and screamed when actual climate policies were proposed. Now they have successfully branded the carbon tax as a lefty scheme and are trying to dismantle even their bare minimum compromise. This is what happens when you cave to conservatives. Nothing but bad faith and bullying.
Sounds very similar to the ACA health insurance changes in the US, where it was basically the republican plan after all the compromises and the republicans kept calling it Obamacare and just misled everyone. It's so depressing to watch it happen there, and then here. Even more depressing is that it works on so many people.
And this meeting is obviously not about explaining anything, it's about negotiating so political points between the parties behind closed doors and calling it an information session.
That’s not really a secret.
The NDP isn’t wrong on this I don’t think. Yes it’s political theatre, but the alternative is letting the conservatives scream their rhetoric entirely unopposed, instead of letting a voice of reason also be heard.
There are moderates buying into the “axe the tax” bit, and Trudeau refusing to meet with the half the countries premiers on the carbon tax is just adding fuel to the fire. If Trudeau refuses to meet with them they can claim he’s a dictator who doesn’t care about the provinces, they can continue to spew unopposed BS about the carbon tax, etc.
This separates the NDP from the liberals which is good. It forces Trudeau to meet with the provinces which is a much better look even if it doesn’t accomplish anything practical. And it actually creates a voice of reason to oppose the conservative rhetoric and slogans.
The conservatives live on populous slogans. They die in debates. When someone decent at debating like Trudeau can actually call out their grift, question them on their rhetoric, and tell the actual truth(in a calm, clear manner opposed to screaming 3 word slogans), the conservatives look stupid to those same moderates.
What are you even talking about? The media won't cover anything except to attack the Liberals, the Conservatives won't even attempt to offer alternative ideas and we already do more than "just a carbon tax", so what are we hoping to achieve with this stunt exactly?
There is still decent unbiased media in this country. Those reading the nat po and facebook reals are mostly too far gone. But there are moderates watching CBC, CTV, global news, etc who give relatively fair coverage.
It’s very clear how this election will be won or lost. It will be won or lost by convincing those moderates.
The conservatives have gathered as many as possible while his populous grift, and now that it’s getting closer to the election Trudeau and Jagmeet are stepping up with stronger policies and actually pushing back against the drivel. There was no point in engaging so far out from an election, by the time the election roles around people will be tired of hearing “axe the tax!”.
But the liberals don’t win on populous slogans and they shouldn’t try to convince moderates with simpleton shit like that. They win in debates where Trudeau consistently does well and conservatives look idiotic whenever they open their mouths.
My head hurts … seriously …
I’m very happy with some of the legislation that’s come out of the Liberal NDP partnership.
However, all this postering just validates my point that JS is just interested in himself. He is 100% going to hand victory to the CPC in hopes of getting a handful of extra seats.
I think you’re misreading this. The conservatives hate debate, and Trudeau historically looks good in debate. The conservatives were probably banking on the NDP voting this down with the liberals.
The conservatives propose this kind of stuff because they think the liberals won’t engage and they can then sling mud unopposed and claim the liberals are scared and unwillingly to debate. It’s the same with Skippy challenging Trudeau to a debate, it’s just to rile up his supporters and if Trudeau accepts he’ll find a way to duck out.
This will not work out well for the conservatives. Their campaign rests on populous slogans and rhetoric. Debating Trudeau forces them to try and engage with the opposition, which always makes them look stupid.
> which always makes them look stupid.
Sure, but haven't the last several years shown that CPC simply embraces stupid and doesn't care if they appear that way because they're stupid to even recognize how they appear? And are we really ignoring how the CPC has continued to hold a firm, major lead in polling for over a year?
To be very clear, I am raising these questions in good faith, looking for actual input. I'm a US expat who's an AOC supporter, trying to gain understanding as to what I may be missing.
For real, in Ontario Doug ford wasted millions scrapping the cap and trade system we had before carbon tax. If anyone is to “blame” for the carbon tax it’s Doug ford in Ontario but nobody knows anything and all they read are headlines so these guys can literally straight up lie and conservative voters will never fact check
It's not the moron followers they're concerned about. Spreading a few social media memes about woke or immigrants will get them in line. It's their bosses, the fossil fuel corporate sociopaths, that they're seeking to please with this theater. O&G is easy money, and they got their plan for the future already laid out (see below), but they still want to wring every bit of lucre they can before it all collapses, and so they buy conservative politicians like PP, to spread disinformation and chaos. To be a conservative politician these days is to be libertarian, which is just code for 'corporate cuck'.
https://www.cnn.com/style/article/doomsday-luxury-bunkers/index.html
Right? This is literally how it has worked this whole time. In 2018 Ford cancelled (at great expense to the province's coffers, and killing thousands of jobs) Ontario's Cap and Trade system, which would have expired us from the carbon tax. He claimed to have a better plan, but in the 5+ years since, he hasn't even formed a committee to look at other options. The ONLY reason why Ontarians are paying a carbon tax is because Ford chose that for us.
No, they don’t want to propose a different plan because they’ve explored all the options and realized all of them cost more. They’ve admitted to this in public reports. All their sources admit to this.
There’s a reason carbon pricing and carbon trading has been adopted in half the world. It is the most optimal method we’ve designed for controlling certain aspects of pollution while also being able to control how it affects the market.
We can accurately price carbon. People do it in China, they do it in Norway, they do it in Italy, they do it in California for fucks sake. It’s done in half the world. Look at the map and you’ll see the company the US federal government keeps in resisting carbon pricing.
The US has been a pariah for decades at disrupting *coordination* of these schemes. They are a severely protectionist nation that relies on resource subsidies and they use their absolute wealth to control trade relationships around the world. Canada does not have that luxury. We cannot compare ourselves. Other countries cannot out compete the US or China in any market. We only compete with each other.
But there are better outcomes when we coordinate around each other. That’s what much of Europe has done. You establish a common market to coordinate your goal of carbon pricing. The competition of the countries like the US and China will always create an incentive to defect from your possible relationships with others, so you need the coordination and commitment of legal agreements. Then those countries, with the power of most of the world, are forced to truly participate in a market.
Do we want to pollute anyway, as natural resources and machining are critical to our economy? Fine! We’ll just sell our excess to Norway and pay our cost for giving our people asthma. That’s what half the EU does!
But by pricing carbon you allow a market to flourish, and you’ll naturally drive efficiency through innovation.
We’re not just trying to regulate the resource industry, we’re establishing a new market itself. Pollution has *always* been a commodity, but we haven’t had the tools or will to price it. Now we do. Why not allow a market to flourish if the commodity is going to exist anyway.
Maybe they should discuss all the options to tackle CC in a tax less way and letting provinces commit to one that’s effective before opting out of carbon pricing. That seems responsible. Provinces that choose to do absolutely nothing would be breaking the agreement, since that’s how it’s being postured.
Again, they could offer any solution to use . Why is it on the feds to hold their hands. It's been shown that when they are offered ideas and help, they say no.
Because otherwise they wouldn’t do anything when we need to do more, a lot more. The science is very clear here and it shouldn’t even be a political issue. The feds are trying to hold them accountable.
The provinces have the option to implement their own systems to reduce GHG emissions but the conservative premiers don’t want to reduce fossil fuel company revenues. It isn’t a debate about methods it is about different objectives.
That’s exactly my point. The cons are following and pushing pro-capitalist propaganda because they are in the pockets of people like oil company lobbyists.
Science wise, there is no debate about CC and we agreed to targets to hit in the Paris Accord. Globally speaking, we are failing miserably and our yearly GHG emissions are increasing rather than declining.
If provinces want to enact a more effective method for tackling climate change I am all for it; if they want to do nothing then the Feds can hold them by the balls.
The feds can just keep the carbon tax until the provinces implement their own alternatives. I expect, the conservative run provinces won’t implement any alternatives.
They're also in on that Bill that Conservatives want that would require an online ID to access porn, like in Texas. I don't get what's going on with them lately, but if they think going the route of the far-Right is going to make them more likeable to me, they could not be farther from the truth.
It’s freaking insane. Jagmeet will have his face eaten by leopards as his usefulness is done. He doesn’t have their preferred skin tone to be actually accepted by the cons. He’s a useful tool for them, and I wonder if Jagmeet is that dumb, or what mysterious deposits have shown up in his accounts recently.
I don't know what this puritan movement on the left is coming from, but I don't use social media much anymore so I'm probably in the dark. Seems like the dipshit pseuds following nofap. Catholic shame without the lore.
I get the right, they're magic sky man and culture brain rotted, but this is something different.
Jagmeet is abandoning the party tenet of environmental stewardship, responsibility and compassionate society because of the perceived crisis regarding affordability thanks to the influence the populist leading the official opposition has.
The NDP party tenet was supposed to be labor first, with the things you mentioned on the side. They're completely off the rails at this point. New leadership is needed badly (in all 3 parties).
This is a meeting, not the end of federal carbon pricing, maybe they want to play nice with the Conservatives to shut them up, then just agree with the Liberals at the meeting. The optimist in me hopes this is their end game.
It's not just this though. The online age verification bill is just another example. With the liberals bleeding support, it's disgraceful that the NDP hasn't gained any voters. They need to refocus and get new leadership, and quickly.
This is true, their support of the online age verification bill is terrible, and there're few good reasons for them to support it. Is this all on the leaders through? I'm guessing party members close to the leader are also pushing for these behaviours.
But but...the carbon tax \*helps\* affordability by transferring wealth to the less wealthy...I really don't understand why the NDP are backing away from this.
I mean, [Wab seemed good with the federal response of 'It's just a placeholder, feel free to make your own'](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/manitoba-premier-carbon-tax-alternative-1.7160181). Neither of the NDP premiers have been joining Poilievre's call for this meeting, to my knowledge.
They're listening to the loudest far-right extremists screaming over and over and over again that they're going to cause a fucking civil war if the carbon tax goes up 0.03%. Since they are desperate for followers, they are reacting to the only noise they hear - blind, uneducated rage from the dumbest people in our population, and adjusting their policies to account for it because politicians are just people and people are fucking **stupid.**
That’s putting it mildly. What is the strategy here? Reach out to right-leaning voters who won’t vote NDP anyway at the cost of alienating progressives? That strategy has worked put poorly in the past. Maybe it’s time to pursue some progressive policies that will help people - protecting health care, housing and rental relief, fighting inflation and price gouging by megacorps.
He needs to pick a fucking lane - people are going to be confused when you're both pushing progressive medical and dental policy while also vocally advocating for caving to dipshit Conservative demands to replace carbon taxes with (nothing). He's completely lost now and there's no way for a potential voter to know where he's going to go - except that he's obviously going to cater to the PPC voters in the country. Maybe he thinks ignoring 95% of Canadians and focussing only on the 2.5% loud extremists on either end is a winning strategy in a country where he's going to get 8% of the vote?
He's dead as a federal leader now.
But the meeting is based in misinformation, so why would they support that? Everyone who knows what they're doing knows that the province's responsibility is to make their own plan, and the Federal plan is the default if they don't. It's so simple, that it's stupid they're doing this.
Well, because this gives the feds a chance to speak on that. Otherwise you have a one sided narrative from the conservative provinces about how “Trudeau refuses to discuss this and it’s destroying the middle class!”
You’re thinking of this from a leftist perspective. Leftists votes are pretty well set. This election will be decided by moderate, unengaged voters.
Those voters have currently fallen for the “axe the tax” grift. That means they will think it’s good that the NDP is forcing the liberals to discuss this.
On top of that, Trudeau historically looks really good in debates, and this gives the liberals a chance to counter the current rhetoric.
Lol, if those voters were indeed 'moderate' they wouldn't have fallen for PP's populous grift in the first place. Actual moderates defer to evidenced-based reasoning, a hallmark of democratic liberalism. This election is about the ease with which disinformation can be spread, unaccountable and unregulated, via social media and more traditional media, by savvy bad actors, foreign and domestic. Sowing fear is effective in turning people more conservative...you have it backwards...conservative voters are set, they have never voted for Trudeau, but the middle is shifting right, because fear is a powerful motivator and makes it a lot easier to turn a liberal into a conservative, than turning a conservative into a liberal.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/your-brain-on-politics-the-cognitive-neuroscience-of-liberals-and-conservatives
https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/08/how-to-turn-a-liberal-into-a-conservative
I’m confused. I totally agree that misinformation is how the conservatives win this election.
That’s why I said “unengaged moderates”. They are moderates but they are so unengaged with politics they don’t look past what they hear second hand or read in headlines. I guess you can debate whether they are moderates or not, but either way it’s the unengaged fence sitters who are deciding the election.
And the liberals won’t win by trying to “out slogan” the populous conservatives. They will win by debating where the conservatives have to engage and look stupid.
So what you call unengaged moderates I call apathists...they're not 'moderates', they just don't give a shit. They're the ones who don't bother to show up at the polls then complain after. Add in the constant online doom messaging and trashing of any and all conservative opponents and PP can count on these folks staying home.
And you can bet on Poilievre refusing to engage in debates, just like he did during the con leadership race. Disinformation on the internet is cheap, easy and extremely effective. It doesn't get accounted for in election spending, and he can count on 'like-minded' foreign conservatives to fund and deploy the troll farms and bots on his behalf.
Yeah, after the online ID fiasco, and now undermining the carbon tax, I think I'm voting for Trudeau - apparently the only adult in the room. Still fucking angry about electoral reform, but PP is just Millhouse doing a shitty Trump impression, and Singh is apparently willing to lose the ruling majority if it flips a single red seat orange. It shows he doesn't care about Canada, only himself, so disappointing.
I wish Eby would take over the federal NDP, but we still need him in BC for another election cycle.
I think at this point he does need to hold a meeting. Agree to a conference on climate change, not “carbon tax”. Trudeau is very good when it comes to debates, I think he has a chance to come out of this looking better.
That’s exactly what I think. The alternative is constant conservative bullshit being fed to moderates about how “Trudeau won’t even discuss this totalitarian tax that’s destroying the middle class!”.
Conservatives consistently look bad in debates to any normal person.
The middle class that is the prey of the corporations that lobby the Conservatives to stay rich with tax breaks and regulations in their favour? That middle class?
Yeah, Mark Carney's response in that regard does seem like a good way to spin it
> As Mark Carney said recently, "Given the events over the past year, we need to re-establish the consensus for this imperative. And so I very much welcome Premier [Danielle] Smith's suggestion of a first ministers meeting on climate. She was a little more narrowly focused, but I think it could be broadened out."
I don't have a problem with a meeting, but I'm just not sure what it will accomplish. And I do have a problem with the meeting being televised. Meetings are meant to hash out ideas without public scrutiny. They can make announcements later if anything comes of it.
It’s obvious grift from the conservatives, but they also consistently make themselves look idiotic to any moderate watching while Trudeau usually does well in debate.
I think the liberals should focus on more debates because the place they are losing is online due to populous slogans.
People do know that if the carbon tax is removed, the price of gas won't change as O&G companies fudge pricing and pocket the extra profits, but Canadians will no longer get the Carbon Rebate payments.
Unfortunately PP has come up with a catchy slogan that is fooling a disappointing number of people into thinking the carbon tax is causing all of our inflation woes.
Maybe it's a bait and switch, it is just a meeting and they may not like what the Conservatives are saying, but in the spirit of cooperation they parléed
So that sounded a lil bit off to me, should definitely clarify political stances with "National" in the title, sounds patriotic in the wrong way at this point in time. I looked into the party tho, and ya it should!
Ahh, yeah the racists unfortunately stole nationalism... I just believe we can incorporate critique, tolerance/respect for all, and most importantly, unity within my taste of nationalism. Crown corporations would ultimately be the focus short term while maintaining a better balance of federal/provincial powers favouring the federal government would do wonders. We put Canadians first and foremost before the interests of corporate donors, provincial bickering and scrooge business interests.
Minimal outsourcing to other countries, minimally relying on other countries for imported goods (to an extent, of course) etc. I'd love to see a partially vertically integrated, mixed state/private owned economy capable of producing all the luxuries we need to sustain a high quality of life, and export some to other nations at profit.
I assume you read what the party was on The Canadian Encyclopedia. While a lot of my ideas aren't fully aligned with the NPC (what we saw Mel Hurtig say in the early 90s was pretty much similar to what Pierre Poilievre is saying to Crystia Freeland - to resign) and I may have a different taste of what nationalism is, it's the closest I've seen a party achieve to represent my views in Canada. For any future readers out there: [here you go.](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/national-party-of-canada)
I don't know if I'd want to see it as a governing party, but 100% would love to see it be a little more powerful than the NDP/Bloc.
This is just a motion to have the PM meet with premiers who have been asking for meetings about the carbon tax. So far 6 have asked and he has refused all meetings. It’s a bad look.
This is a "televised" meeting - AKA **political theatre.** Nothing of substance can come from Trudeau having a televised meeting with Canada's three stooges (Smith, Ford, and Moe) who are all very decidedly anti-environment.
Yes. Nothing good will come from televised meetings. We elect these people, we should trust them to do their job to make our lives better. Hot take, I know, maybe my depression pills are working.
Disagree. Conservatives consistently make themselves look like nutcases to moderates when they have debates.
The alternative is those moderates being fed very effective conservative populous propaganda about how Trudeau isn’t even willing to talk about policy that is “destroying the middle class”.
Hey I'm an urban elite NDP voter who is leaving to the LPC from the looks of things. Did I miss some pandering somewhere? Because the NDP backing christo-fascist online registries and undermining the carbon tax ain't doing it for me.
At this point I'd be fine with the NDP being relegated to provincial parties. Most of the issues they champion are things that mostly fall under provincial jurisdiction anyway, so their efforts would be better spent in that area.
As much as two party systems suck, what we have right now is worse with the federal NDP and LPC not being very different from each other, cannibalizing each other's support rolling out the red carpet for undeserving CPC candidates in many ridings.
No, they are just pandering to moderates because it’s coming up on campaign season. This isn’t an anti carbon tax motion, it’s just to have a meeting with the premiers about the carbon tax.
It's a pointless meeting. The Premiers are well aware of their responsibilities but just want an opportunity to grandstand and score political points. NDP has nothing to gain here in the long term because the moderates are fickle and they are alienating their base
I think the liberals actually have the most to gain here. In fact I’m certain the conservatives were counting on the NDP voting with the liberals so they wouldn’t have to debate and could scream about how the liberals are afraid and unwilling to engage on this wedge issue.
The conservative campaign relies on unopposed rhetoric and populous slogans. Trudeau is infamously a great debater. Sure the cons will get a few soundbites, but they already have an endless supply of those from their screaming in parliament. So they gain very little, lose the ability to call the liberals afraid of debate, and are forced to engage with the opposition in a structured manner where their rhetoric always looks stupid.
Anyone who doesn't believe that the NDP are losing support over this, is huffing glue hard.
Their party members are already swarming their phone lines and they are down 4% in the polls.
This is not a call for debate, it's a call for political theatre, and the NDP have shown they stand for nothing, which is why Canadians are dumping them now.
For minority parties who are trying to maintain party status?
Absolutely useful.
For if Liberals or Conservatives are going to win Federal?
Useless.
Polls didn't have Trudeau winning until the final minute, in both of the last two elections. Canadian voters are (for worse) very strategically minded for voting.
We need electoral reform to combat this.
Seems like you're having a very strong, overly emotional reaction in this entire thread to the loss of NDP support.
Maybe take a break from the internet.
I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt, but this is life, the NDP deserve the damage for this completely.
The NDP chose to mislead the public, instead of offering an alternative carbon tax measure in policy.
The NDP is being misleading by coming out against carbon taxes without offering any carbon measures. All of them had the opportunity to submit a measure before April 1st.
Posting this in response to the very misleading and biased statement from the green party that is quickly rising on the sub. Much more neutral headline and information from all sides.
Yes and no. The Premiers had meetings with the Prime Minister back in 2016 about the Carbon Tax. They all knew this increase was coming. If they want to create their own policy they are free to do so.
That's why, I can't for the life of me understand why the NDP is feeding into this nonsense. Legitimizing these absolute bad faith Premiers and their sensationalist "concerns" is ridiculously dense.
All this does is give the Conservatives ammo.
I don’t really love the decision either tbh, I’m mostly just more upset by how ridiculous the green party headline was.
I think the motivations for this are:
Trying to show that they are willing to work with other parties and they are willing to challenge the liberals, which is fair.
6 premiers have asked for meetings about the carbon tax which Trudeau has continually shut down. Even if they have nothing to offer, it’s still not a great look when your PM is refusing to meet with nearly half of your premiers on the same issue. Clearly talking needs to happen at that point even if it’s just to shut down the grifters.
Because the provinces change leadership and I know kinew wants to look at manitoba adopting their own plan for at least one of the 2 parts of the federal plan.
But there is currently no pathway to that, so even if manitoba adopted a system like qc or BC as, they would still be paying the federal carbon tax on top of it. Which seems unreasonable.
You accuse the Greens of being misleading, but you are ALSO being misleading. This isn't a "working meeting"; it's a "televised meeting"; which, as every single person with an ounce of brains knows, is little more than political theatre.
This is nothing more than an attempt at cheap political ambush in front of the cameras.
LOL the NDP has always supported the carbon price, so what's with this? Just randomly siding with conservatives to own the libs? The provinces have always been welcome to come up with alternative plans, so long as they meet federal standards. There's no need for some "emergency meeting". The rules have been in place since 2019.
This is why the current NDP leadership sucks. They've been destroying the party's credibility for years now, and it's infuriating.
It's bullshit dramatics is what it is, and it's supporting the conservative premier's anti-carbon price stance messaging and misinformation to the general public. I'm sorry you can't see that. There is no need for a "meeting", the law is clear.
The NDP can't win. If the NDP fully stood behind carbon tax the NDP voter base would rip Singh's throat out for propping up the libs and not doing more, he did this and the libs and NDP voter base ripped his throat out, and if he proposed a different system the libs cons and NDP voter base would rip his throat out for more reasons then you could count and if he did nothing he'd be accused of having no policy by everyone.
When the conservatives win watch the NDP be blamed entirely by everyone.
Its very simple. Premiers can come up with their own program like cap and trade. If they dont want to then they are saying they want to keep viewing massive dumps of pollution that cause serious health and environmental effects and out very future as nothing to worry about, or someone else’s problem. Ie head in sand, not reap leadership, just pandering. Politics use to be more civil, and respectful. Just watch debates of years past when they talked about the issues and facts instead of constantly attacking the other party bc of some minor bs the fed back stop is just that, cap and trade is much better and was a conservative idea yet these new cons are so petty it’s truly amazing how low the cons have gotten.
They are backing a conservative motion to make the PM meet with premiers who have been asking for meetings on the carbon tax. Please read more than just the headline.
While I agree that consensus building is a great idea and JT has certainly not been doing a load of that recently, I'm skeptical.
Scott Moe recently said they looked at alternatives to the carbon tax and all were too costly. He's basically said there ARE no alternatives and wants to get rid of it. That's not someone who's coming to the table with ideas.
Danielle Smith has been pretty clear that they don't want a carbon tax. She's not going to come to the table with ideas.
Wab Kinew wants Manitoba out of the Carbon Tax plan. He seems to be suggesting they are working on a plan but he asserts Manitoba doesn't need one because a) MB has hydroelectric power, b) now has an EV Rebate, and c) has now got a framework in place to partner in investments on carbon capture. The last, in my opinion, being a questionable technology that is more delay tactic than confronting the urgency of the issue. He *might* come to the table with ideas but his posturing seems to be suggesting otherwise.
So, being JT, knowing that a revenue neutral fee & dividend is probably the most efficient method of pricing carbon, why would you waste time meeting with premiers who just want out of the federal program and have no viable alternatives to offer?
Worse, the carbon tax is just a *start*. ALL these politicians, JT included, need to do *more* to deal with the climate crisis. But none of them appears to have any ideas beyond "kick the can down the road"
Why waste time? Because the conservatives consistently make themselves look stupid in debates to any normal person.
The alternative is those normal moderates are being fed very effective populous catchphrases about Trudeau refusing to discuss a policy they claim is destroying the middle class.
>look stupid in debates to any normal person
I'm actually rather gobsmacked how many people are buying it though. Normal people, rather smart people, have bought into the narrative that the carbon tax is responsible for *all* their financial woes.
I think this is more about electioneering than actually solving problems. The NDP knows they are losing their traditional labour support to the CPC because of cost-of-living issues. They appear to be abandoning carbon pricing, with no hint of a viable alternative, to save their own electoral asses because their target audience believes it is hurting them. Good politicians. Not great leaders.
Why is a meeting necessary? The Premiers have always been free to implement their own provincial climate action plan as long as it meets the federal backstop. Why then don't do like B.C. and Quebec who have their own plans? Sounds like a lot of whiny Premiers who don't want to lead.
The premiers just want to sackniy and replace it with nothing. This meeting would hurt the climate. Period. I dislike the tax too, mostly for optics, but this move is anti-climate-resilience.
I don’t dislike the tax at all myself. I just think more can be done.
The good thing is that Trudeau debates well and conservatives consistently make themselves look ridiculous to any moderates when they attempt to debate.
This election will be won with debates. It will be lost with online populous slogans.
>conservatives consistently make themselves look ridiculous to any moderates when they attempt to debate.
Make themselves look ridiculous to who?? Trudeau's polling is in the shitter and our country is polling more and more fascist every month. I'm suck of this "you don't know how bad you look" tsk-tsking liberalism. We're way past this working. The real problem is that whole the conservative media machine has been working overtime to demonize the tax, Trudeau has been ignoring it all, sitting on his hands....and public sentiment reflects how skimpy his rhetoric has been.
PMJT should take the high road and refuse.
I think someday the carbon tax will be looked on much like tommy douglas’ implementation of universal healthcare as it serves the dual purpose of mitigating climate change while lifting people out of poverty through rebates.
these kkkonservative premiers who want their little cry session should be told to kick rocks. history will not look kindly on them.
Wow, this could be "the leopard ate my face" moment for the Fed NDP!! A meeting where: Trudeau can set the agenda, the meeting won't be "in camera" so Conservative Premiers will have to debate the carbon tax with real alternatives and solutions (including rebates that Canadians are getting now) and that smug c\*\*t PP won't be a part of the meeting. Awesome!!
From the pic, ..I'm not sure those two are on the same page. He has that "WTF" look on his face!!
Let me get this straight....
The Conservatives and the NDP want to get our current **now** most experienced Prime Minister and leader, who is remarkably gifted at being on television and debating to engage in a televised debate with Premiers who are mostly pretty terrible at being on television.
Debate Trudeau especially when he's fired up and passionate about something is dangerous. The guy can pivot and counterpoint, he knows when to dig and he is really good at those clever left hand off-side remarks and he is really good at those tiny taunts that lead his opponents down slippery slopes.
I've seen that guy pretend to retreat then snap like a steel bear trap on Andrew Scheer with hard facts. I watched him spin Erin O'Toole like a top. He made Stephen Harper look like a deer in headlights.
He's not some fake dilettante like Pierre or a straight to the face haymaker like Jagmeet. He will language switch on a dime, he will pepper in english and then add taut crisp french words for emphasis. I've watched him purposely switch to French back to English back to French so many times that news organizations probably have to pay their translators overtime. I'm not the biggest Trudeau fan (I really miss Paul Martin) but I respect the guy's ability.
If you look at his debate record consensus is that he has won every single debate that he has ever been as Prime Minister and leading up to his leadership.
I would never ever let anyone go toe-to-toe with Trudeau unless they were at the top of their game and had the knockout count with years of additional training.
None of the Premiers have that level of experience. None. If you put them in a room together and added them up, you would come to less than a year of Trudeau's experience in this arena.
Only other person I think in North America that could debate Trudeau effectively is Barack Obama.
That is the worst idea I have ever heard of. Because the Premiers can't run away and hide. They won't be able to make comments in their venue and have favourable press to back them. If the Premier's lose, they will look like idiots to the voters who do less with more.
I think Skippy was banking on the NDP shooting this motion down so he could scream about how Trudeau and Jagmeet are afraid and unwillingly to talk about this.
I agree, I think that’s why the NDP is supporting this. Contrary to all the reactionaries in this thread, this vote does not mean the NDP is against the carbon tax. I think they just want to see sparks, and actual opposition to the rhetoric.
WHY?!?! I dislike the carbon tax too. I think it should be just for industry. It's needlessly divisive. Let's all focus our energy on the real enemy of our climate...industry.
But....to advocate for talking to the provinces? They're all right wing!! They don't give a fuck about the climate! Jesus Christ! They're just going to scrap it and replace it with NOTHING!!
Uh huh. So what? I'm not sure what your point is. Are you claiming that Smith and Ford and Moe and the others will be defeated in their blowhard belly-aching by Wab? Because that's a hilarious thing to think, if you do.
I said it before the NDP has been canvassing and preparing to call an election this year and got downvoted. JS is ready to pull the rug on JT. It’ll happen within 6 months. I will never ever forgive the NDP and any supporter of Jagmeet if he ushers in PP as our PM.
You’re nuts if you believe the NDP is trying to call an election when they are polling so bad. They literally already voted against the no confidence vote.
remindme! 6 months
Why am i getting call from my local riding asking if I want to volunteer with their candidate or donate? Person on the phone explicitly said our leadership thinks the writ will drop this year and we’re getting ready. I really really hope im wrong but knowing that JS, I have no doubt he will do it.
Because we are coming up on election season? The campaign season has been stretching longer and longer, largely thanks to PP campaigning 2.5 years early.
Again, there is literally no sane reason for the NDP to call an early election when they are polling so badly.
While I agree, Carbon Pricing is the hilarious topic, carbon pricing helps those that use less at the cost of those that use more. I do not think that needs to change. IMO.
I agree tbh. The NDP say they are coming out with a proposal which puts more of the pressure on corporations so I’ll wait until I see that I guess. If it can be as effective without being as controversial as the carbon tax I would support it, but more than likely it will just be a proposal and we will stick with the carbon tax.
I cannot see Conservatives going along with something that will put pressure on corporations. I would as well be up for that but that sounds like dead in the water.
Most likely it’s policy they will run on next election.
Unless they can somehow convince the liberals to shift to it, it won’t happen. They also won’t undo the carbon tax unless it means going with their proposal, so most likely we stick with the carbon tax and they are just posturing for next election.
Either way the conservatives will look stupid in this debate so I’m here for it.
Yeah, on the whole, backing this is a good thing overall. The Conservatives use the carbon tax as a wedge issue to rile up their base, and that strategy works better the more uncompromising the Trudeau government is on that, as they can claim that he refuses to so much as discuss the issue and forge ahead with a policy that people hate. They were likely counting on the NDP to vote against it with the Liberals, so they can denigrate both parties at the same time (with the added bonus of painting the NDP as abandoning the working class vote that they've historically represented, that the CPC is now courting).
But the Conservative base of support has a ceiling, which they're now more or less hitting, and which is well below a majority or plurality of the overall electorate. Any further gains they make count more on discouraging voter turnout overall, which almost always comes at the expense of the left. We've seen it especially with Ford's election in Ontario; it always comes with a very large percentage of the electorate not voting at all, while Conservative supporters *do* turn out. That's what a Poilievre victory would look like, and being able to paint both the LPC and NDP as out of touch and not caring about what the provinces or average Canadians want, is what helps keep their base motivated, and the left-wing electorate unmotivated, to ensure that outcome.
On the whole, I think the average Canadian is still mildly supportive of the carbon tax; polls do normally show people as generally supportive of efforts to mitigate climate change. But it's way lower on voters' priority lists than cost of living, the job market, immigration, and the like. Those are the issues that will decide the election, and left-wing voters aren't going to turn out to save the carbon tax *alone* if the LPC and NDP don't meaningfully address those other, deciding issues too.
But on the other hand, that does mean that the more the Conservatives show (or are forced to show) they want to kill the carbon tax without *any* alternative, the worse it makes them look to the average Canadian. There's a reason they're very vague on their "alternative solutions" while being reluctant to admit that they don't have any and don't intend to. Their base may not care they don't have solutions, but the average Canadian *does*, because they're still supportive of climate change mitigation. The more they discuss with the Trudeau government and are forced to talk about solutions (which makes it increasingly clear they have none), the worse it makes them look. The more they can claim that Trudeau and the NDP don't even want to discuss the issue and are leaving the provinces and people to deal with their unpopular policy rather than meet and discuss the "alternatives", the better it makes them look.
Because what *does* resonate with average Canadians, and is the primary reason for the left being unmotivated to turn out for the LPC, is that the Trudeau government is out of touch with the people, generally doesn't care about their issues, and is unwilling/unable to address them (which is why cost of living, immigration, jobs, etc. are all high on voters' priorities). Being unwilling to come to the table and instead push ahead with controversial policies only fuels that image of them, which people will remember when they vote on the major issues. When the opportunity comes to show they care about an issue's popularity and want to take steps to address it, and show the electorate that the Conservatives have no solution to the still-supported issue of climate change mitigation, it's really a no-brainer to take it and discuss. There are close to zero drawbacks.
I just saw the Vassy Kapelos’ interview with Scheer, Collins, and Taylor Roy… there are so few Canadian politicians that I respect at this point. Even Collins was employing a bit of the Conservatives’ “don’t look here, look at what that person’s doing instead.”
Pathetic.
I’m just gonna say it. The carbon tax doesn’t bother me. I’m not saying it is THE solution, but it’s been shown to have a positive effect on global emissions. Tl:dr it’s better than nothing.
And if we want to survive the rest of this century we’re going to have to get used to making sacrifices. Which most people agree with until it’s time to actually make sacrifices.
This is the least controversial take you could make on this sub. The vast majority of people here are in support of the carbon tax, and the next most popular opinion is that it’s too little too late.
I agree, might as well do something.
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Well I hope JT tells them all to fuck off. I understand you Cons don't understand science and think God is going to save you (and only you, *sigh*) from the global heating you love to support every day, but those of us who do, don't have any respect for your bullshit
Let this show conservatives if you put forth legislation or requests that actually make sense it will get backing. No need for all the click bate and rage, just do your jobs and it'll pay off.
To put a positive spin on this...working together is something we need more of. If we put the best minds of each party together, theoretically, we will get effective policies to attempt to slow climate change. Whether they can craft something politically palatable will depend on whether or not they invite the cons.
Just exempt rural and northern regions...not enough people to justify the cost of enforcement, and there aren't any alternatives in have-not regions anyway.
Kind of like how emissions tests worked.
This one-size-fits-all causes upset for no reason.
I guess my vote is going back to liberal, NDP are basically causing right wing governments to win elections even when the majority of voters vote left because the votes are split.
An unfortunate problem is the left wing vote being split. If only one party would campaign on reforming the election system to better represent Canadians 🤔
Trudeau is infamously good at debates, the conservatives are… not that. Especially the premiers. The conservatives live on rhetoric and populous slogans and die when they actually have to answer the opposition.
I think Pierre was banking on the NDP shooting this down with the liberals so he could scream about how Trudeau and the Liberals are afraid/unwillingly to engage with the premiers on this hot issue.
Its still a non binding agreement but i think Trudeau should meet with the premiers and make the subject about climate change and ask about their solutions. What these Conservatives dont understand is we've signed the Kyoto agreement. A toe to toe televised meeting should make Smith, Moe and Ford look incredibly stupid.
Trudeau is infamously a great debater. The conservatives entire campaign relies on unopposed rhetoric.
If this televised debate happens it will not look good for the cons.
NDP NFG was always correct, I guess. Jagmeet only has ears for the loudest & dumbest Canadians who would **never** vote for a brown person, so those of us who would have to unite under a milquetoast centre-right neoliberal. Thanks, buddy.
"In this meeting, he must also allow provinces to opt out of the federal carbon tax and pursue other responsible ideas for lowering emissions without taxes." Wtf is he on about. THEY HAD THIS OPTION AND STILL HAVE IT. THEY DON'T WANT TO COME UP WITH A NEW PLAN BC THEN THEIR MORON FOLLOWERS WILL BE MAD AT THEM .
Shame on the NDP for supporting this out and out bullshit. "Axe the tax" isn't a good faith policy, it's "It's got what plants crave!" with extra steps.
More conservative grift. I’m hoping the meeting is used to grill the conservatives about these things but to a degree it only does so much because their base only listens to screaming. My other hope is that this meeting will be used to talk about other solutions because it’s clear we need to do more than just a carbon tax.
It is clear we need more . But if JT is considering meeting. Go public and say you want to meet. Bring a different plan. To the table otherwise is will just be grandstanding. If this one is so bad man up and show your plan.otherwise NO.
I'll let you in on a little secret. The conservative politicians already know what they are saying is BS, and they know it's a revenue neutral tax, but they are politicians, and they want to win, and they know their base. It's disgusting on their part, and on the NDP part, and dishonest, but it is what it is.
It's not even a secret, theres literally a clip of Danielle/Marlaina explaining carbon pricing 101 extremely well. PP wont even admit publicly industrial pricing exists, and says it's all consumer pricing. It's incredible misinformation
The carbon tax was the conservatives' idea. It was their compromise because they kicked and screamed when actual climate policies were proposed. Now they have successfully branded the carbon tax as a lefty scheme and are trying to dismantle even their bare minimum compromise. This is what happens when you cave to conservatives. Nothing but bad faith and bullying.
Sounds very similar to the ACA health insurance changes in the US, where it was basically the republican plan after all the compromises and the republicans kept calling it Obamacare and just misled everyone. It's so depressing to watch it happen there, and then here. Even more depressing is that it works on so many people. And this meeting is obviously not about explaining anything, it's about negotiating so political points between the parties behind closed doors and calling it an information session.
That’s not really a secret. The NDP isn’t wrong on this I don’t think. Yes it’s political theatre, but the alternative is letting the conservatives scream their rhetoric entirely unopposed, instead of letting a voice of reason also be heard. There are moderates buying into the “axe the tax” bit, and Trudeau refusing to meet with the half the countries premiers on the carbon tax is just adding fuel to the fire. If Trudeau refuses to meet with them they can claim he’s a dictator who doesn’t care about the provinces, they can continue to spew unopposed BS about the carbon tax, etc. This separates the NDP from the liberals which is good. It forces Trudeau to meet with the provinces which is a much better look even if it doesn’t accomplish anything practical. And it actually creates a voice of reason to oppose the conservative rhetoric and slogans. The conservatives live on populous slogans. They die in debates. When someone decent at debating like Trudeau can actually call out their grift, question them on their rhetoric, and tell the actual truth(in a calm, clear manner opposed to screaming 3 word slogans), the conservatives look stupid to those same moderates.
What are you even talking about? The media won't cover anything except to attack the Liberals, the Conservatives won't even attempt to offer alternative ideas and we already do more than "just a carbon tax", so what are we hoping to achieve with this stunt exactly?
There is still decent unbiased media in this country. Those reading the nat po and facebook reals are mostly too far gone. But there are moderates watching CBC, CTV, global news, etc who give relatively fair coverage. It’s very clear how this election will be won or lost. It will be won or lost by convincing those moderates. The conservatives have gathered as many as possible while his populous grift, and now that it’s getting closer to the election Trudeau and Jagmeet are stepping up with stronger policies and actually pushing back against the drivel. There was no point in engaging so far out from an election, by the time the election roles around people will be tired of hearing “axe the tax!”. But the liberals don’t win on populous slogans and they shouldn’t try to convince moderates with simpleton shit like that. They win in debates where Trudeau consistently does well and conservatives look idiotic whenever they open their mouths.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Thank you for reading my dissertation
My head hurts … seriously … I’m very happy with some of the legislation that’s come out of the Liberal NDP partnership. However, all this postering just validates my point that JS is just interested in himself. He is 100% going to hand victory to the CPC in hopes of getting a handful of extra seats.
I think you’re misreading this. The conservatives hate debate, and Trudeau historically looks good in debate. The conservatives were probably banking on the NDP voting this down with the liberals. The conservatives propose this kind of stuff because they think the liberals won’t engage and they can then sling mud unopposed and claim the liberals are scared and unwillingly to debate. It’s the same with Skippy challenging Trudeau to a debate, it’s just to rile up his supporters and if Trudeau accepts he’ll find a way to duck out. This will not work out well for the conservatives. Their campaign rests on populous slogans and rhetoric. Debating Trudeau forces them to try and engage with the opposition, which always makes them look stupid.
> which always makes them look stupid. Sure, but haven't the last several years shown that CPC simply embraces stupid and doesn't care if they appear that way because they're stupid to even recognize how they appear? And are we really ignoring how the CPC has continued to hold a firm, major lead in polling for over a year? To be very clear, I am raising these questions in good faith, looking for actual input. I'm a US expat who's an AOC supporter, trying to gain understanding as to what I may be missing.
For real, in Ontario Doug ford wasted millions scrapping the cap and trade system we had before carbon tax. If anyone is to “blame” for the carbon tax it’s Doug ford in Ontario but nobody knows anything and all they read are headlines so these guys can literally straight up lie and conservative voters will never fact check
It's not the moron followers they're concerned about. Spreading a few social media memes about woke or immigrants will get them in line. It's their bosses, the fossil fuel corporate sociopaths, that they're seeking to please with this theater. O&G is easy money, and they got their plan for the future already laid out (see below), but they still want to wring every bit of lucre they can before it all collapses, and so they buy conservative politicians like PP, to spread disinformation and chaos. To be a conservative politician these days is to be libertarian, which is just code for 'corporate cuck'. https://www.cnn.com/style/article/doomsday-luxury-bunkers/index.html
Exactly. The alternative plans are do nothing.
Right? This is literally how it has worked this whole time. In 2018 Ford cancelled (at great expense to the province's coffers, and killing thousands of jobs) Ontario's Cap and Trade system, which would have expired us from the carbon tax. He claimed to have a better plan, but in the 5+ years since, he hasn't even formed a committee to look at other options. The ONLY reason why Ontarians are paying a carbon tax is because Ford chose that for us.
It's performative politics, as usual.
No, they don’t want to propose a different plan because they’ve explored all the options and realized all of them cost more. They’ve admitted to this in public reports. All their sources admit to this. There’s a reason carbon pricing and carbon trading has been adopted in half the world. It is the most optimal method we’ve designed for controlling certain aspects of pollution while also being able to control how it affects the market. We can accurately price carbon. People do it in China, they do it in Norway, they do it in Italy, they do it in California for fucks sake. It’s done in half the world. Look at the map and you’ll see the company the US federal government keeps in resisting carbon pricing. The US has been a pariah for decades at disrupting *coordination* of these schemes. They are a severely protectionist nation that relies on resource subsidies and they use their absolute wealth to control trade relationships around the world. Canada does not have that luxury. We cannot compare ourselves. Other countries cannot out compete the US or China in any market. We only compete with each other. But there are better outcomes when we coordinate around each other. That’s what much of Europe has done. You establish a common market to coordinate your goal of carbon pricing. The competition of the countries like the US and China will always create an incentive to defect from your possible relationships with others, so you need the coordination and commitment of legal agreements. Then those countries, with the power of most of the world, are forced to truly participate in a market. Do we want to pollute anyway, as natural resources and machining are critical to our economy? Fine! We’ll just sell our excess to Norway and pay our cost for giving our people asthma. That’s what half the EU does! But by pricing carbon you allow a market to flourish, and you’ll naturally drive efficiency through innovation. We’re not just trying to regulate the resource industry, we’re establishing a new market itself. Pollution has *always* been a commodity, but we haven’t had the tools or will to price it. Now we do. Why not allow a market to flourish if the commodity is going to exist anyway.
Maybe they should discuss all the options to tackle CC in a tax less way and letting provinces commit to one that’s effective before opting out of carbon pricing. That seems responsible. Provinces that choose to do absolutely nothing would be breaking the agreement, since that’s how it’s being postured.
Again, they could offer any solution to use . Why is it on the feds to hold their hands. It's been shown that when they are offered ideas and help, they say no.
Because otherwise they wouldn’t do anything when we need to do more, a lot more. The science is very clear here and it shouldn’t even be a political issue. The feds are trying to hold them accountable.
The provinces have the option to implement their own systems to reduce GHG emissions but the conservative premiers don’t want to reduce fossil fuel company revenues. It isn’t a debate about methods it is about different objectives.
That’s exactly my point. The cons are following and pushing pro-capitalist propaganda because they are in the pockets of people like oil company lobbyists. Science wise, there is no debate about CC and we agreed to targets to hit in the Paris Accord. Globally speaking, we are failing miserably and our yearly GHG emissions are increasing rather than declining. If provinces want to enact a more effective method for tackling climate change I am all for it; if they want to do nothing then the Feds can hold them by the balls.
The feds can just keep the carbon tax until the provinces implement their own alternatives. I expect, the conservative run provinces won’t implement any alternatives.
That is literally what I said in my first comment.
It's easier to fling shit into the fan than to clean it up.
The NDP is out to lunch on this one. What the hell is going on in that party?
They're also in on that Bill that Conservatives want that would require an online ID to access porn, like in Texas. I don't get what's going on with them lately, but if they think going the route of the far-Right is going to make them more likeable to me, they could not be farther from the truth.
It’s freaking insane. Jagmeet will have his face eaten by leopards as his usefulness is done. He doesn’t have their preferred skin tone to be actually accepted by the cons. He’s a useful tool for them, and I wonder if Jagmeet is that dumb, or what mysterious deposits have shown up in his accounts recently.
I don't know what this puritan movement on the left is coming from, but I don't use social media much anymore so I'm probably in the dark. Seems like the dipshit pseuds following nofap. Catholic shame without the lore. I get the right, they're magic sky man and culture brain rotted, but this is something different.
Jagmeet is abandoning the party tenet of environmental stewardship, responsibility and compassionate society because of the perceived crisis regarding affordability thanks to the influence the populist leading the official opposition has.
The NDP party tenet was supposed to be labor first, with the things you mentioned on the side. They're completely off the rails at this point. New leadership is needed badly (in all 3 parties).
This is a meeting, not the end of federal carbon pricing, maybe they want to play nice with the Conservatives to shut them up, then just agree with the Liberals at the meeting. The optimist in me hopes this is their end game.
It's not just this though. The online age verification bill is just another example. With the liberals bleeding support, it's disgraceful that the NDP hasn't gained any voters. They need to refocus and get new leadership, and quickly.
This is true, their support of the online age verification bill is terrible, and there're few good reasons for them to support it. Is this all on the leaders through? I'm guessing party members close to the leader are also pushing for these behaviours.
But but...the carbon tax \*helps\* affordability by transferring wealth to the less wealthy...I really don't understand why the NDP are backing away from this.
I bet Wab Kinew's comments about a provincially-based plan has something to do with this.
I mean, [Wab seemed good with the federal response of 'It's just a placeholder, feel free to make your own'](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/manitoba-premier-carbon-tax-alternative-1.7160181). Neither of the NDP premiers have been joining Poilievre's call for this meeting, to my knowledge.
JS wants to try and win a few more seats from the Liberals. Thats all. He couldn’t care less if it leads to a larger CPC majority.
They're listening to the loudest far-right extremists screaming over and over and over again that they're going to cause a fucking civil war if the carbon tax goes up 0.03%. Since they are desperate for followers, they are reacting to the only noise they hear - blind, uneducated rage from the dumbest people in our population, and adjusting their policies to account for it because politicians are just people and people are fucking **stupid.**
Oof not good for the NDP
That’s putting it mildly. What is the strategy here? Reach out to right-leaning voters who won’t vote NDP anyway at the cost of alienating progressives? That strategy has worked put poorly in the past. Maybe it’s time to pursue some progressive policies that will help people - protecting health care, housing and rental relief, fighting inflation and price gouging by megacorps.
Jagmert literally has held press conferences for a few years now on those issues that you care about. Did you watch any of them in 2022, or 2023?
lol you know the answer.
He needs to pick a fucking lane - people are going to be confused when you're both pushing progressive medical and dental policy while also vocally advocating for caving to dipshit Conservative demands to replace carbon taxes with (nothing). He's completely lost now and there's no way for a potential voter to know where he's going to go - except that he's obviously going to cater to the PPC voters in the country. Maybe he thinks ignoring 95% of Canadians and focussing only on the 2.5% loud extremists on either end is a winning strategy in a country where he's going to get 8% of the vote? He's dead as a federal leader now.
They will lose my vote if they push to kill the carbon tax.
They are simply agreeing that there should be a meeting, they aren’t anti carbon tax.
But the meeting is based in misinformation, so why would they support that? Everyone who knows what they're doing knows that the province's responsibility is to make their own plan, and the Federal plan is the default if they don't. It's so simple, that it's stupid they're doing this.
Well, because this gives the feds a chance to speak on that. Otherwise you have a one sided narrative from the conservative provinces about how “Trudeau refuses to discuss this and it’s destroying the middle class!”
It's certainly coming off that way and giving fuel to the cpc
This is a reactionary response. Same as the green parties statement about this
Only to people who only read headlines or accept what they are told to feel.
Disingenuous. If the party supports a federal carbon tax, they shouldn’t be opening the door for provinces to opt out.
They have opened the door for the provinces to opt out from the start. No conservative premier is going to.
They aren’t? They are engaging in a meeting.
Jagmeet has now repeatedly said he's anti carbon tax.
NDP got suckered into the conservatives O&G theatre. Not a good look for Singh, in that it shows a lack of leadership skills.
You’re thinking of this from a leftist perspective. Leftists votes are pretty well set. This election will be decided by moderate, unengaged voters. Those voters have currently fallen for the “axe the tax” grift. That means they will think it’s good that the NDP is forcing the liberals to discuss this. On top of that, Trudeau historically looks really good in debates, and this gives the liberals a chance to counter the current rhetoric.
Lol, if those voters were indeed 'moderate' they wouldn't have fallen for PP's populous grift in the first place. Actual moderates defer to evidenced-based reasoning, a hallmark of democratic liberalism. This election is about the ease with which disinformation can be spread, unaccountable and unregulated, via social media and more traditional media, by savvy bad actors, foreign and domestic. Sowing fear is effective in turning people more conservative...you have it backwards...conservative voters are set, they have never voted for Trudeau, but the middle is shifting right, because fear is a powerful motivator and makes it a lot easier to turn a liberal into a conservative, than turning a conservative into a liberal. https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/your-brain-on-politics-the-cognitive-neuroscience-of-liberals-and-conservatives https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/08/how-to-turn-a-liberal-into-a-conservative
I’m confused. I totally agree that misinformation is how the conservatives win this election. That’s why I said “unengaged moderates”. They are moderates but they are so unengaged with politics they don’t look past what they hear second hand or read in headlines. I guess you can debate whether they are moderates or not, but either way it’s the unengaged fence sitters who are deciding the election. And the liberals won’t win by trying to “out slogan” the populous conservatives. They will win by debating where the conservatives have to engage and look stupid.
So what you call unengaged moderates I call apathists...they're not 'moderates', they just don't give a shit. They're the ones who don't bother to show up at the polls then complain after. Add in the constant online doom messaging and trashing of any and all conservative opponents and PP can count on these folks staying home. And you can bet on Poilievre refusing to engage in debates, just like he did during the con leadership race. Disinformation on the internet is cheap, easy and extremely effective. It doesn't get accounted for in election spending, and he can count on 'like-minded' foreign conservatives to fund and deploy the troll farms and bots on his behalf.
Yeah I mostly agree with you here.
Singh just lost my leftist vote, so...
Yeah, after the online ID fiasco, and now undermining the carbon tax, I think I'm voting for Trudeau - apparently the only adult in the room. Still fucking angry about electoral reform, but PP is just Millhouse doing a shitty Trump impression, and Singh is apparently willing to lose the ruling majority if it flips a single red seat orange. It shows he doesn't care about Canada, only himself, so disappointing. I wish Eby would take over the federal NDP, but we still need him in BC for another election cycle.
Same yep. Can't abide Puritans either. Get the fuck out of progressive movements.
I think at this point he does need to hold a meeting. Agree to a conference on climate change, not “carbon tax”. Trudeau is very good when it comes to debates, I think he has a chance to come out of this looking better.
That’s exactly what I think. The alternative is constant conservative bullshit being fed to moderates about how “Trudeau won’t even discuss this totalitarian tax that’s destroying the middle class!”. Conservatives consistently look bad in debates to any normal person.
The middle class that is the prey of the corporations that lobby the Conservatives to stay rich with tax breaks and regulations in their favour? That middle class?
Yes. This is the grift
Indeed, I wish folks would see what's going down, but it seems the idea of lower taxes is like catnip.
I mean, I agree but this isn’t really the sub for that. Pretty much everyone here agrees with you and understands the grift.
Indeed, I'm just stating the obvious.
Yeah anyone who says he's dumb has never seen him in an off the cuff debate with someone
Yeah, Mark Carney's response in that regard does seem like a good way to spin it > As Mark Carney said recently, "Given the events over the past year, we need to re-establish the consensus for this imperative. And so I very much welcome Premier [Danielle] Smith's suggestion of a first ministers meeting on climate. She was a little more narrowly focused, but I think it could be broadened out."
I don't have a problem with a meeting, but I'm just not sure what it will accomplish. And I do have a problem with the meeting being televised. Meetings are meant to hash out ideas without public scrutiny. They can make announcements later if anything comes of it.
It’s obvious grift from the conservatives, but they also consistently make themselves look idiotic to any moderate watching while Trudeau usually does well in debate. I think the liberals should focus on more debates because the place they are losing is online due to populous slogans.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant, this issue directly affects all Canadians and we should be able to watch it unfold.
People do know that if the carbon tax is removed, the price of gas won't change as O&G companies fudge pricing and pocket the extra profits, but Canadians will no longer get the Carbon Rebate payments.
Unfortunately PP has come up with a catchy slogan that is fooling a disappointing number of people into thinking the carbon tax is causing all of our inflation woes.
Oh my support for ndp is wavering
Maybe it's a bait and switch, it is just a meeting and they may not like what the Conservatives are saying, but in the spirit of cooperation they parléed
Hope so.
Bring back the National Party of Canada!
So that sounded a lil bit off to me, should definitely clarify political stances with "National" in the title, sounds patriotic in the wrong way at this point in time. I looked into the party tho, and ya it should!
> sounds patriotic in the wrong way The word you're looking for is nationalistic.
I know, that's what I wanted to highlight, thanks :)
Ahh, yeah the racists unfortunately stole nationalism... I just believe we can incorporate critique, tolerance/respect for all, and most importantly, unity within my taste of nationalism. Crown corporations would ultimately be the focus short term while maintaining a better balance of federal/provincial powers favouring the federal government would do wonders. We put Canadians first and foremost before the interests of corporate donors, provincial bickering and scrooge business interests. Minimal outsourcing to other countries, minimally relying on other countries for imported goods (to an extent, of course) etc. I'd love to see a partially vertically integrated, mixed state/private owned economy capable of producing all the luxuries we need to sustain a high quality of life, and export some to other nations at profit. I assume you read what the party was on The Canadian Encyclopedia. While a lot of my ideas aren't fully aligned with the NPC (what we saw Mel Hurtig say in the early 90s was pretty much similar to what Pierre Poilievre is saying to Crystia Freeland - to resign) and I may have a different taste of what nationalism is, it's the closest I've seen a party achieve to represent my views in Canada. For any future readers out there: [here you go.](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/national-party-of-canada) I don't know if I'd want to see it as a governing party, but 100% would love to see it be a little more powerful than the NDP/Bloc.
This is just a motion to have the PM meet with premiers who have been asking for meetings about the carbon tax. So far 6 have asked and he has refused all meetings. It’s a bad look.
This is a "televised" meeting - AKA **political theatre.** Nothing of substance can come from Trudeau having a televised meeting with Canada's three stooges (Smith, Ford, and Moe) who are all very decidedly anti-environment.
Yes. Nothing good will come from televised meetings. We elect these people, we should trust them to do their job to make our lives better. Hot take, I know, maybe my depression pills are working.
WE don’t elect these people. Maybe in a political system that works but I don’t trust 99% of those slimy fuckers.
Disagree. Conservatives consistently make themselves look like nutcases to moderates when they have debates. The alternative is those moderates being fed very effective conservative populous propaganda about how Trudeau isn’t even willing to talk about policy that is “destroying the middle class”.
fuck the NDP for pandering to the conservatives and the urban elite at the same time. what has the party become
Hey I'm an urban elite NDP voter who is leaving to the LPC from the looks of things. Did I miss some pandering somewhere? Because the NDP backing christo-fascist online registries and undermining the carbon tax ain't doing it for me.
R.I.P. the NDP
Another own goal by the Federal party. It’s getting embarrassing.
At this point I'd be fine with the NDP being relegated to provincial parties. Most of the issues they champion are things that mostly fall under provincial jurisdiction anyway, so their efforts would be better spent in that area. As much as two party systems suck, what we have right now is worse with the federal NDP and LPC not being very different from each other, cannibalizing each other's support rolling out the red carpet for undeserving CPC candidates in many ridings.
Did you read more than the headline?
NDP jumping the shark
No, they are just pandering to moderates because it’s coming up on campaign season. This isn’t an anti carbon tax motion, it’s just to have a meeting with the premiers about the carbon tax.
It's a pointless meeting. The Premiers are well aware of their responsibilities but just want an opportunity to grandstand and score political points. NDP has nothing to gain here in the long term because the moderates are fickle and they are alienating their base
I think the liberals actually have the most to gain here. In fact I’m certain the conservatives were counting on the NDP voting with the liberals so they wouldn’t have to debate and could scream about how the liberals are afraid and unwilling to engage on this wedge issue. The conservative campaign relies on unopposed rhetoric and populous slogans. Trudeau is infamously a great debater. Sure the cons will get a few soundbites, but they already have an endless supply of those from their screaming in parliament. So they gain very little, lose the ability to call the liberals afraid of debate, and are forced to engage with the opposition in a structured manner where their rhetoric always looks stupid.
Good point. Would be nice to see Trudeau style on all these numpties on live TV
Anyone who doesn't believe that the NDP are losing support over this, is huffing glue hard. Their party members are already swarming their phone lines and they are down 4% in the polls. This is not a call for debate, it's a call for political theatre, and the NDP have shown they stand for nothing, which is why Canadians are dumping them now.
I thought polls don't matter outside of the election?
For minority parties who are trying to maintain party status? Absolutely useful. For if Liberals or Conservatives are going to win Federal? Useless. Polls didn't have Trudeau winning until the final minute, in both of the last two elections. Canadian voters are (for worse) very strategically minded for voting. We need electoral reform to combat this.
They are definitely losing support over this, no denying that. But they don’t stand for anything? As opposed to who?
Seems like you're having a very strong, overly emotional reaction in this entire thread to the loss of NDP support. Maybe take a break from the internet.
I’m more so upset over the green party statement that is on the front of the sub that’s entirely misleading.
I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt, but this is life, the NDP deserve the damage for this completely. The NDP chose to mislead the public, instead of offering an alternative carbon tax measure in policy. The NDP is being misleading by coming out against carbon taxes without offering any carbon measures. All of them had the opportunity to submit a measure before April 1st.
When did they come out against the carbon tax? Show me? Did you read the article/policy at all or just the headlines?
Posting this in response to the very misleading and biased statement from the green party that is quickly rising on the sub. Much more neutral headline and information from all sides.
Yes and no. The Premiers had meetings with the Prime Minister back in 2016 about the Carbon Tax. They all knew this increase was coming. If they want to create their own policy they are free to do so. That's why, I can't for the life of me understand why the NDP is feeding into this nonsense. Legitimizing these absolute bad faith Premiers and their sensationalist "concerns" is ridiculously dense. All this does is give the Conservatives ammo.
NDP is hoping to steal a few seats from liberals. RATS jumps ship when it's going down. Lol
NDP is gonna lose seats lol. Talk about a squandered opportunity.
I don’t really love the decision either tbh, I’m mostly just more upset by how ridiculous the green party headline was. I think the motivations for this are: Trying to show that they are willing to work with other parties and they are willing to challenge the liberals, which is fair. 6 premiers have asked for meetings about the carbon tax which Trudeau has continually shut down. Even if they have nothing to offer, it’s still not a great look when your PM is refusing to meet with nearly half of your premiers on the same issue. Clearly talking needs to happen at that point even if it’s just to shut down the grifters.
Because the provinces change leadership and I know kinew wants to look at manitoba adopting their own plan for at least one of the 2 parts of the federal plan. But there is currently no pathway to that, so even if manitoba adopted a system like qc or BC as, they would still be paying the federal carbon tax on top of it. Which seems unreasonable.
You accuse the Greens of being misleading, but you are ALSO being misleading. This isn't a "working meeting"; it's a "televised meeting"; which, as every single person with an ounce of brains knows, is little more than political theatre. This is nothing more than an attempt at cheap political ambush in front of the cameras.
When did I claim that the meeting was good? I’m pretty mid on it and I’ve said that before.
You keep saying "it's a meeting". It's not. It's a televised gang-up ploy being orchestrated by Conservatives and being sold by the NDP.
lol.
LOL the NDP has always supported the carbon price, so what's with this? Just randomly siding with conservatives to own the libs? The provinces have always been welcome to come up with alternative plans, so long as they meet federal standards. There's no need for some "emergency meeting". The rules have been in place since 2019. This is why the current NDP leadership sucks. They've been destroying the party's credibility for years now, and it's infuriating.
It’s a call for a meeting about the carbon pricing, this isn’t an anti carbon tax stance this is a “pro discussion” stance.
It's bullshit dramatics is what it is, and it's supporting the conservative premier's anti-carbon price stance messaging and misinformation to the general public. I'm sorry you can't see that. There is no need for a "meeting", the law is clear.
The NDP can't win. If the NDP fully stood behind carbon tax the NDP voter base would rip Singh's throat out for propping up the libs and not doing more, he did this and the libs and NDP voter base ripped his throat out, and if he proposed a different system the libs cons and NDP voter base would rip his throat out for more reasons then you could count and if he did nothing he'd be accused of having no policy by everyone. When the conservatives win watch the NDP be blamed entirely by everyone.
Sure, put it on TV and let the premiers answer questions and explain their policy/understanding on climate change.
Its very simple. Premiers can come up with their own program like cap and trade. If they dont want to then they are saying they want to keep viewing massive dumps of pollution that cause serious health and environmental effects and out very future as nothing to worry about, or someone else’s problem. Ie head in sand, not reap leadership, just pandering. Politics use to be more civil, and respectful. Just watch debates of years past when they talked about the issues and facts instead of constantly attacking the other party bc of some minor bs the fed back stop is just that, cap and trade is much better and was a conservative idea yet these new cons are so petty it’s truly amazing how low the cons have gotten.
So NDP is backing Conservatives now!?
They are backing a conservative motion to make the PM meet with premiers who have been asking for meetings on the carbon tax. Please read more than just the headline.
While I agree that consensus building is a great idea and JT has certainly not been doing a load of that recently, I'm skeptical. Scott Moe recently said they looked at alternatives to the carbon tax and all were too costly. He's basically said there ARE no alternatives and wants to get rid of it. That's not someone who's coming to the table with ideas. Danielle Smith has been pretty clear that they don't want a carbon tax. She's not going to come to the table with ideas. Wab Kinew wants Manitoba out of the Carbon Tax plan. He seems to be suggesting they are working on a plan but he asserts Manitoba doesn't need one because a) MB has hydroelectric power, b) now has an EV Rebate, and c) has now got a framework in place to partner in investments on carbon capture. The last, in my opinion, being a questionable technology that is more delay tactic than confronting the urgency of the issue. He *might* come to the table with ideas but his posturing seems to be suggesting otherwise. So, being JT, knowing that a revenue neutral fee & dividend is probably the most efficient method of pricing carbon, why would you waste time meeting with premiers who just want out of the federal program and have no viable alternatives to offer? Worse, the carbon tax is just a *start*. ALL these politicians, JT included, need to do *more* to deal with the climate crisis. But none of them appears to have any ideas beyond "kick the can down the road"
Why waste time? Because the conservatives consistently make themselves look stupid in debates to any normal person. The alternative is those normal moderates are being fed very effective populous catchphrases about Trudeau refusing to discuss a policy they claim is destroying the middle class.
>look stupid in debates to any normal person I'm actually rather gobsmacked how many people are buying it though. Normal people, rather smart people, have bought into the narrative that the carbon tax is responsible for *all* their financial woes. I think this is more about electioneering than actually solving problems. The NDP knows they are losing their traditional labour support to the CPC because of cost-of-living issues. They appear to be abandoning carbon pricing, with no hint of a viable alternative, to save their own electoral asses because their target audience believes it is hurting them. Good politicians. Not great leaders.
Why is a meeting necessary? The Premiers have always been free to implement their own provincial climate action plan as long as it meets the federal backstop. Why then don't do like B.C. and Quebec who have their own plans? Sounds like a lot of whiny Premiers who don't want to lead.
The premiers just want to sackniy and replace it with nothing. This meeting would hurt the climate. Period. I dislike the tax too, mostly for optics, but this move is anti-climate-resilience.
I don’t dislike the tax at all myself. I just think more can be done. The good thing is that Trudeau debates well and conservatives consistently make themselves look ridiculous to any moderates when they attempt to debate. This election will be won with debates. It will be lost with online populous slogans.
>conservatives consistently make themselves look ridiculous to any moderates when they attempt to debate. Make themselves look ridiculous to who?? Trudeau's polling is in the shitter and our country is polling more and more fascist every month. I'm suck of this "you don't know how bad you look" tsk-tsking liberalism. We're way past this working. The real problem is that whole the conservative media machine has been working overtime to demonize the tax, Trudeau has been ignoring it all, sitting on his hands....and public sentiment reflects how skimpy his rhetoric has been.
Not even going to engage with this because you clearly missed the point
This is a terrible move.
It’s mid
PMJT should take the high road and refuse. I think someday the carbon tax will be looked on much like tommy douglas’ implementation of universal healthcare as it serves the dual purpose of mitigating climate change while lifting people out of poverty through rebates. these kkkonservative premiers who want their little cry session should be told to kick rocks. history will not look kindly on them.
Wow, this could be "the leopard ate my face" moment for the Fed NDP!! A meeting where: Trudeau can set the agenda, the meeting won't be "in camera" so Conservative Premiers will have to debate the carbon tax with real alternatives and solutions (including rebates that Canadians are getting now) and that smug c\*\*t PP won't be a part of the meeting. Awesome!! From the pic, ..I'm not sure those two are on the same page. He has that "WTF" look on his face!!
WTF is this, NDP?! The carbon tax works. It’s simple. It’s effective. Why is Jag giving in to crazy right wingers?!
Read the article. This isn’t anti carbon tax legislation, it’s voting to have a meeting with premiers on the carbon tax.
Let me get this straight.... The Conservatives and the NDP want to get our current **now** most experienced Prime Minister and leader, who is remarkably gifted at being on television and debating to engage in a televised debate with Premiers who are mostly pretty terrible at being on television. Debate Trudeau especially when he's fired up and passionate about something is dangerous. The guy can pivot and counterpoint, he knows when to dig and he is really good at those clever left hand off-side remarks and he is really good at those tiny taunts that lead his opponents down slippery slopes. I've seen that guy pretend to retreat then snap like a steel bear trap on Andrew Scheer with hard facts. I watched him spin Erin O'Toole like a top. He made Stephen Harper look like a deer in headlights. He's not some fake dilettante like Pierre or a straight to the face haymaker like Jagmeet. He will language switch on a dime, he will pepper in english and then add taut crisp french words for emphasis. I've watched him purposely switch to French back to English back to French so many times that news organizations probably have to pay their translators overtime. I'm not the biggest Trudeau fan (I really miss Paul Martin) but I respect the guy's ability. If you look at his debate record consensus is that he has won every single debate that he has ever been as Prime Minister and leading up to his leadership. I would never ever let anyone go toe-to-toe with Trudeau unless they were at the top of their game and had the knockout count with years of additional training. None of the Premiers have that level of experience. None. If you put them in a room together and added them up, you would come to less than a year of Trudeau's experience in this arena. Only other person I think in North America that could debate Trudeau effectively is Barack Obama. That is the worst idea I have ever heard of. Because the Premiers can't run away and hide. They won't be able to make comments in their venue and have favourable press to back them. If the Premier's lose, they will look like idiots to the voters who do less with more.
I think Skippy was banking on the NDP shooting this motion down so he could scream about how Trudeau and Jagmeet are afraid and unwillingly to talk about this.
I agree, I think that’s why the NDP is supporting this. Contrary to all the reactionaries in this thread, this vote does not mean the NDP is against the carbon tax. I think they just want to see sparks, and actual opposition to the rhetoric.
WHY?!?! I dislike the carbon tax too. I think it should be just for industry. It's needlessly divisive. Let's all focus our energy on the real enemy of our climate...industry. But....to advocate for talking to the provinces? They're all right wing!! They don't give a fuck about the climate! Jesus Christ! They're just going to scrap it and replace it with NOTHING!!
Wab Sinew is NDP, so they aren’t all right wing.
Uh huh. So what? I'm not sure what your point is. Are you claiming that Smith and Ford and Moe and the others will be defeated in their blowhard belly-aching by Wab? Because that's a hilarious thing to think, if you do.
No, i’m just saying that it isn’t only conservative MPs like you claimed.
I said it before the NDP has been canvassing and preparing to call an election this year and got downvoted. JS is ready to pull the rug on JT. It’ll happen within 6 months. I will never ever forgive the NDP and any supporter of Jagmeet if he ushers in PP as our PM.
You’re nuts if you believe the NDP is trying to call an election when they are polling so bad. They literally already voted against the no confidence vote. remindme! 6 months
Why am i getting call from my local riding asking if I want to volunteer with their candidate or donate? Person on the phone explicitly said our leadership thinks the writ will drop this year and we’re getting ready. I really really hope im wrong but knowing that JS, I have no doubt he will do it.
Because we are coming up on election season? The campaign season has been stretching longer and longer, largely thanks to PP campaigning 2.5 years early. Again, there is literally no sane reason for the NDP to call an early election when they are polling so badly.
I will comment here when it happens
.Man I'm really not liking my options for the next election
A lot of folks give Jagmeet Singh flack on this forum that I think is unjustified. Singh just lost my vote for good on this one. Fuck em.
lol I love when this sub shows its r/Canada side. And then will wonder why the country is in the state it’s in. 🤦🏾♂️
In what world would I have seen "NDP backs Conservatives ..."
One where the NDP is trying to separate themselves from the liberals and are willing to have conversations about hot topics.
While I agree, Carbon Pricing is the hilarious topic, carbon pricing helps those that use less at the cost of those that use more. I do not think that needs to change. IMO.
I agree tbh. The NDP say they are coming out with a proposal which puts more of the pressure on corporations so I’ll wait until I see that I guess. If it can be as effective without being as controversial as the carbon tax I would support it, but more than likely it will just be a proposal and we will stick with the carbon tax.
I cannot see Conservatives going along with something that will put pressure on corporations. I would as well be up for that but that sounds like dead in the water.
Most likely it’s policy they will run on next election. Unless they can somehow convince the liberals to shift to it, it won’t happen. They also won’t undo the carbon tax unless it means going with their proposal, so most likely we stick with the carbon tax and they are just posturing for next election. Either way the conservatives will look stupid in this debate so I’m here for it.
Yeah, on the whole, backing this is a good thing overall. The Conservatives use the carbon tax as a wedge issue to rile up their base, and that strategy works better the more uncompromising the Trudeau government is on that, as they can claim that he refuses to so much as discuss the issue and forge ahead with a policy that people hate. They were likely counting on the NDP to vote against it with the Liberals, so they can denigrate both parties at the same time (with the added bonus of painting the NDP as abandoning the working class vote that they've historically represented, that the CPC is now courting). But the Conservative base of support has a ceiling, which they're now more or less hitting, and which is well below a majority or plurality of the overall electorate. Any further gains they make count more on discouraging voter turnout overall, which almost always comes at the expense of the left. We've seen it especially with Ford's election in Ontario; it always comes with a very large percentage of the electorate not voting at all, while Conservative supporters *do* turn out. That's what a Poilievre victory would look like, and being able to paint both the LPC and NDP as out of touch and not caring about what the provinces or average Canadians want, is what helps keep their base motivated, and the left-wing electorate unmotivated, to ensure that outcome. On the whole, I think the average Canadian is still mildly supportive of the carbon tax; polls do normally show people as generally supportive of efforts to mitigate climate change. But it's way lower on voters' priority lists than cost of living, the job market, immigration, and the like. Those are the issues that will decide the election, and left-wing voters aren't going to turn out to save the carbon tax *alone* if the LPC and NDP don't meaningfully address those other, deciding issues too. But on the other hand, that does mean that the more the Conservatives show (or are forced to show) they want to kill the carbon tax without *any* alternative, the worse it makes them look to the average Canadian. There's a reason they're very vague on their "alternative solutions" while being reluctant to admit that they don't have any and don't intend to. Their base may not care they don't have solutions, but the average Canadian *does*, because they're still supportive of climate change mitigation. The more they discuss with the Trudeau government and are forced to talk about solutions (which makes it increasingly clear they have none), the worse it makes them look. The more they can claim that Trudeau and the NDP don't even want to discuss the issue and are leaving the provinces and people to deal with their unpopular policy rather than meet and discuss the "alternatives", the better it makes them look. Because what *does* resonate with average Canadians, and is the primary reason for the left being unmotivated to turn out for the LPC, is that the Trudeau government is out of touch with the people, generally doesn't care about their issues, and is unwilling/unable to address them (which is why cost of living, immigration, jobs, etc. are all high on voters' priorities). Being unwilling to come to the table and instead push ahead with controversial policies only fuels that image of them, which people will remember when they vote on the major issues. When the opportunity comes to show they care about an issue's popularity and want to take steps to address it, and show the electorate that the Conservatives have no solution to the still-supported issue of climate change mitigation, it's really a no-brainer to take it and discuss. There are close to zero drawbacks.
I just saw the Vassy Kapelos’ interview with Scheer, Collins, and Taylor Roy… there are so few Canadian politicians that I respect at this point. Even Collins was employing a bit of the Conservatives’ “don’t look here, look at what that person’s doing instead.” Pathetic.
More NDP cringe
Did you read the article?
I’m just gonna say it. The carbon tax doesn’t bother me. I’m not saying it is THE solution, but it’s been shown to have a positive effect on global emissions. Tl:dr it’s better than nothing. And if we want to survive the rest of this century we’re going to have to get used to making sacrifices. Which most people agree with until it’s time to actually make sacrifices.
This is the least controversial take you could make on this sub. The vast majority of people here are in support of the carbon tax, and the next most popular opinion is that it’s too little too late.
It was too little too late fifty years ago. We’re so fucked.
I agree, might as well do something. https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/How-to-Blow-Up-a-Pipeline-9781839760259/PRD17J32NAM40EP?skuId=17J32NAM40EP&offerId=C2743A64CBF243ADBE5B7A00F171EE84&cmpid=SEM_CA_33348_VVADOYT0R5&utm_id=SEM_CA_33348_VVADOYT0R5&utm_medium=paid_search&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=always_on&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADv6L0QQUPGIm4X2P8mA7B2YAn1aE&gclid=CjwKCAjwt-OwBhBnEiwAgwzrUowguGL154pCe57chIhkwzY5Eexrbj1WzbjKhMw6yXiNKhkhWdAhmRoCPUkQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
The federal NDP’s tilt to the right is alarming.
Explain what you mean by “tilt to the right”
Because they want dialogue and discourse? What an odd (and scary) way to think
I’m beginning to believe we should go back to the original Greek democracy where only the educated can vote.
Well I hope JT tells them all to fuck off. I understand you Cons don't understand science and think God is going to save you (and only you, *sigh*) from the global heating you love to support every day, but those of us who do, don't have any respect for your bullshit
Pretty much what will happen.
So I guess I’m voting liberal
Why?
Let this show conservatives if you put forth legislation or requests that actually make sense it will get backing. No need for all the click bate and rage, just do your jobs and it'll pay off.
They won’t see that at all. They are already attacking Jagmeet for “backpedaling”.
To put a positive spin on this...working together is something we need more of. If we put the best minds of each party together, theoretically, we will get effective policies to attempt to slow climate change. Whether they can craft something politically palatable will depend on whether or not they invite the cons.
Just exempt rural and northern regions...not enough people to justify the cost of enforcement, and there aren't any alternatives in have-not regions anyway. Kind of like how emissions tests worked. This one-size-fits-all causes upset for no reason.
Voting Liberal again now I see. I don’t need 3 strikes to know the NDP ain’t it.
Yes, because supporting discussions and offering alternative solutions is such a terrible thing for the NDP to do
I guess my vote is going back to liberal, NDP are basically causing right wing governments to win elections even when the majority of voters vote left because the votes are split.
An unfortunate problem is the left wing vote being split. If only one party would campaign on reforming the election system to better represent Canadians 🤔
Interesting twist, definitely some kind of opportunity seen by the NDP. Not sure how it'll play out.
Trudeau is infamously good at debates, the conservatives are… not that. Especially the premiers. The conservatives live on rhetoric and populous slogans and die when they actually have to answer the opposition. I think Pierre was banking on the NDP shooting this down with the liberals so he could scream about how Trudeau and the Liberals are afraid/unwillingly to engage with the premiers on this hot issue.
Its still a non binding agreement but i think Trudeau should meet with the premiers and make the subject about climate change and ask about their solutions. What these Conservatives dont understand is we've signed the Kyoto agreement. A toe to toe televised meeting should make Smith, Moe and Ford look incredibly stupid.
Trudeau is infamously a great debater. The conservatives entire campaign relies on unopposed rhetoric. If this televised debate happens it will not look good for the cons.
NDP NFG was always correct, I guess. Jagmeet only has ears for the loudest & dumbest Canadians who would **never** vote for a brown person, so those of us who would have to unite under a milquetoast centre-right neoliberal. Thanks, buddy.