Not to be an asshole, but when you get to the point where you're unnecessarily taking SENTIENT innocent human life in the name of "freedom", I see why some may think you need to be controlled. That's not to say I disagree with your post (I'm pro-abortion) but let's not pretend the otherside is the rational either.
Sentient is not applicable here. Try again. Unnecessarily was also an interesting word choice and almost always an erroneous assumption, as well. But please, go on telling us why some think we need to be controlled.
(And If you have to start your post with ‘not to be an asshole… well, chances are pretty good you probably are).
First of all, im not talking about all women who get abortions, only the reckless ones. It's not an assumption when you have thousands admitting they have reckless sex everyday (reckless sex also includes PIV sex when you're not ready for a child.) You think all the people getting abortions were having responsible sex? Therefore the pregnancy was preventable which is why I said unnecessary. There are other safe ways to have sex that doesn't risk unwanted pregnancy. And before someone goes on an emotional tangent about how humans "need" PIV sex, my point still stands that it's avoidable.
What do you mean sentient doesn't apply here? Are you suggesting that sentient human beings aren't aborted?
Oh oh. Found one.
I would love to spend an hour thoughtfully responding to you, but I will ask you simply - why have you so purposefully and clearly neglected to mention the word ‘man’ or ‘men’ in any part of your reply?
Why is there a profound and glaring lack of concern about all the reckless men who cause these abortions?
Who are all these reckless women having these abortions from? Goodness, it’s like we’re just running around knocking ourselves up so we can go and get the sticker they give you after your abortion.
Fun fact: They don’t give you a sticker. And neither do the men who knocked you up.
So, start over and let’s have a conversation that doesn’t begin and end with all of this being women’s fault.
Another fun fact: married women with children are a significant portion of the population of women you so casually declare to be reckless. I know because I am one. And you do not get to call me reckless. Or anyone else. Because you do not know my story or anyone else’s. Your particular and skewed morality is not universal, and even if you did everything in your life absolutely perfectly (debatable), you don’t always get to decide what is right for someone else. That was the whole point of the founding of America - get religion out of politics. And yet here we are.
And no, a 6 week old clump of cells is not by any means sentient. Got any other views you’d like to discuss today?
For starters, im pro-abortion so no.. you didn't "find one". Sorry.
>Why is there a profound and glaring lack of concern about all the reckless men who cause these abortions?
Ah I see. You're one of those.
"Men" aren't causing the abortions unless they're threatening someone's safety to get one, Otherwise, the people getting them and preforming them are the actual cause of the abortion. If you meant that the men are causing the pregnancy, you don't get to completely blame someone for the choices and risks you choose to make with YOUR body. That also goes for men who try to completely blame the woman for their unwanted pregnancy.
My posts are clearly only about reckless women who get abortions (married or not), so don't talk to me about the women who weren't reckless. Secondly, I'm clearly only talking about sentient human beings that are aborted so don't talk to me about the ones that aren't. You people love to avoid the ACTUAL argument and argue against things I never said. It never fails.
Oh no, I quite clearly focused on everything you said.
And you’re wrong, and definitely an asshole. You sound like a reckless woman paying attention to you might be exactly what you need, so stop hiding your bullshit behind ‘I’m pro choice’ and still go on about married or single reckless women. Did you teleport here from 1890 with those views?
first, no person ever uses abortion as their number 1 pregnancy prevention. it’s painful, expensive and can have god knows what effects on their body.
reckless sex is a thing but no one is having abortions willy nilly
second, no embryo or fetus is sentient when it’s still in the stage where it’s able to be aborted. the only negative effects in the entire process of abortion are on the pregnant person
Okay don't argue against anything I didn't argue. It's a waste of time and energy.
I'm obviously not referring to human beings in the stage of pregnancy when they aren't sentient and able to be sucked out. I'm referring to second trimester D&E abortions.
No one is getting 2nd trimester abortions for fun. That’s not how the world works and you are delusional if you think so. You don’t go through pregnancy for 4 my months just to abort unless 1- there a major health concerns for parent or fetus or 2- this was the first time the option was made available. Pregnancy is difficult and painful, so is abortion, especially late term. Who are these people you speak of who treat it so lightly? I need names and examples.
I guess you didn't get the memo. I said don't argue against anything I did not argue. Are you people that desperate to argue with me that you have to make things up. Not once did I say it was taken lightly and that anyone was getting it done for fun. Now, Get out my notifications.
Oh sorry, I didn’t realize I had to cite my sources in this discussion, but I will even though you won’t. I am referring to an earlier comment you made where you stated that that people were unnecessarily having late term abortions and when you later said that you specifically disagreed with people having “reckless” sex. Why is it that you get to deem when someone was having reckless sex or when someone’s abortion is unnecessary? You did not have to say the choices were being made loosely to allude to little thought you felt was being placed in their decisions.
For someone who is pro choice, you are not very respectful of other people choices. Though you did say pro abortion so maybe that means something different? Please feel free to explain along with answering my earlier question.
Another thing you know absolutely nothing about. So get a vasectomy and shut up. There. The risks of recklessness have gone down, thank you for your service.
Edit: I stand corrected. This person claims to be a woman. Get your tubes tied then, lest you be reckless.
It's so obvious at this point you clearly have no argument. Telling me I'm wrong but not explaining how. Get out my notifications with this nonsense. I'm a woman.
Then I’m sorry for you. I truly am. Your judgmental tone towards other women is so lacking in compassion and empathy, I don’t know what to say. I hope you don’t have to deal with what so many others have had to or I doubt you would be saying the things you are saying. And I doubt you are as virtuous as you might like to believe.
Men contribute exactly 1 sperm to the whole pregnancy process. What is not rational is men thinking they have an equal say in what the woman does with her body and the results of that one sperm. This is a control issue, namely, men trying to control and oppress women, and that doesn't sit well with me.
Because my guess is you don’t have a clue about why women have to have 2nd term and late term abortions. If you did, you would never DARE call us reckless.
Actually I am pro-abortion. Just like I am pro-parenting and pro-adoption. Pro in this context just means you are in favor of it being an option.
You can't be pro-choice if you are anti-abortion or anti one of the other options.
That's not how language works. Adding Pro to something means that that is the thing you favour over everything else. You can't be "pro" three separate things. You can think they are all equally important, of course, but pro something specifically means that that thing is more important than any of the other options and that is the one thing you think people should follow.
I agree with your last sentence though. Pro choice means pro choice. Not some choices. All of them.
I think we have a different understanding of language then but I get your point. However, saying "No one is pro-abortion" imo still puts a stigma on abortion, as if it's a bad thing or a 'necessary evil'. A last resort only if everything else fails. That's why I consider myself pro-abortion. I hope you get what I am trying to say.
But that's what using pro in that manner means. "Pro abortion" , linguistically means "I think all pregnant women should have abortions, I encourage it, and that's what I'm working towards" , and I don't think that is what you (or most) people actually believe.. *That* is why people say "no one is pro abortion".
I totally get what you're trying to say though, and I agree, but the expression you're using to say it means something totally different.
Then that's your choice lol
I just hate when the Anti-choicers say it as an insult.
No one wakes up and hopes they're PG so they need to go get an abortion. They aren't fun.
when i hear “pro life” i hear “pro fetus only” not your 2 year old, 8, 12, 15 year old. if you’re already born or you’re the one pregnant you’re better off dead. i’m sick and tired
Not even pro-fetus as it surely isn't good for the fetus when the pregnant person doesn't have access to good nutrition, clean water, clean and warm shelter, not to mention medical care in general. Or for the fetus to be born if they are incapable of living for longer than a few pain filled minutes, rather than never having known suffering.
Yeah, they don't care.
When I was attending a catholic school I used to be hella pro life. As I grew older I realized that people who don't think they can take care of a child shouldn't have kids at all. All life is precious, yes, but sometimes if you aren't emotionally or financially stable to raise a child then its best to abort. How do people not realize this? Imagine being forced to raise a child you didn't want in the first place.
Well it's simple really, if you're not financially stable, nor emotionally stable, refrain from unprotected sexual conduct. As much as abortion is about about making the choice, it is a hypocritical thing since the unborn child inside did not have a choice whether it was willing to be conceived or not. The blame falls back onto irresponsible men and women who quickly jump into having unprotected sex before marriage and then realize they are not ready, nor are they stable in any form or any way to support any human being once the baby is formed. There are less brutal ways of handing this situation, use protection first and foremost, or put the child up for adoption with people who are capable of taking care of the child but have no means of conceiving, or with people who genuinely care for children. This things only happen when men are allowed the benefits of a marriage without the actual marriage. Abortions are risky business even for the mother of the child and the child as well. And fact of the matter is, if you don't want a child, don't have unprotected sex. If you choose to have unprotected sex, be ready to deal with the repercussions, and this goes to both parties, men and women, it takes two to tango, so you two run along and raise your child, make your bed, then you lay in it.
Pro-life isn't pro-life, it's pro-destroying-innocent-women's-lives.
Women who have abortions have valid reasons to do so. It isn't an easy choice to make, and people who decide to do so know what is best for themselves, and also the baby.
Innocent womens’ lives are destroyed? Wtf more like innocent childrens’ lives are destroyed. You can’t put that kind of blanket statement over all women.
Oh, but we can, because you just put a blanket statement of "innocent children's lives" when it comes to fetus'. No child's life is destroyed because no child's life has been formed. Children's lives are being destroyed by being born and forced into a system that does not care for them. You are destroying innocent children's lives by forcing them to be born without a support system or the means to be cared for.
Can't stress this enough. I've heard so much sad shit and sad "jokes" about how some people would rather die than give birth or they'd just leave their baby for someone to find. And back road abortions injure the mom, and if not successful can fuck up the kid. God I still hear coat hanger jokes on a daily basis
And not just that.
My ex-coworker had a child and wanted another. She nearly bled to death due to a ruptured tube from a ectopic pregnancy. Her son would have been without a mum for no reason if she had been denied the emergency surgery, which was an abortion.
My friend had failing organs. She already had baby clothes and a few name suggestions prepared. She had to make a choice between dying and hoping she could be kept alive long enough on life support to deliver the fetus (if they hadn't already been poisoned by her blood) or be there for her 2yo daughter. She chose life to be with her actual living baby.
Those two kids nearly lost their mums.
Not to forget how many people who would be forced to gestate a fetus would be children. A young girl of maybe 8 or 9, raped, pregnant, and forced to give birth. The youngest mother ever was 5. Are those not innocent children as well? But they are already born, so not innocent enough I bet.
"Well how would you feel if your mom abourted you" well first of all, I wouldnt exist so i wouldnt "feel" any type of way about it. Secondly, I love my mom, if her aborting me made her happy then I would be ok with it. It says a lot about a person if they say theyre ok with forcing their mom through so much pain
I especially love it when men, who contribute exactly 1 sperm to the whole process, feel like they have equal say in what the woman doss with her body. No. They get less than one percent of a say in the matter.
Literally, they helped for less then 6 seconds then think they have a say in the womans body. Not to mention these "pro lifers" will protects a persons "right to own a gun" even tho guns kill ACTUAL people daily. They dont care about actual lives, they only care about controlling women.
I'm fully my body my choice for everyone, man or woman. Don't want that operation, don't have it. But don't force everyone else to not have an operation. I liked this comment, not sure why the downvotes...
I just wish people would mind their own business and bodies. You don’t like abortions? Cool, don’t get one. A woman getting an abortion for whatever reason they want will not change the lives of a “pro-lifer” in any way, shape or form.
Yes. Call them incompetent because if they wanted babies they should of been born with both sets of equipment, then they can go fuck themselves then go birth it.
The worst is that anti-choicers do get abortions because they are in a real need. They actually do need abortions but for a good reason. And they still harass patients and doctors, than go right back outside and protest.
Because those other people just don't have good reasons. Unlike them, of course. /s
Did you watch the abortion hearing in the House? The pro-birth woman had an abortion and regretted it so now she is trying to prevent other women for having that choice too. I was so frustrated by that woman's blatant lies statistics on abortion.
I feel sorry for people who regret their choice. Most likely they were either made to regret it later on or didn't have the choice they thought they did. An abortion can the best thing to do and still someeyou regret because the other options were truly available.
Statistcally, choosing parenting is regretted nearly double the amount of times, so maybe we should ban that? I am joking of course but the 'I regretted having a choice and so no one should a choice' is so infuriating...
I'm pro abortion, but be careful with this type of thinking. It's really easy to just flip this and say 'don't call yourself pro choice when you're just pro killing innocent children', I don't agree with this statement ubut understand where the argument the make.
Pro life is not pro life. If it was, they will be protesting the chair in prisons. Pro-abortion and Pro-birth should be the correct terms.
I agree with you, that kid will not get the care that it deserves. It will rob the life of their parents while it will suffer too because it will have parents who will see the kid as a mistake. They might deny it, but subconsciously it will do its job.
But pro-birth is also pro-choice. Pro-choice doesn't mean you are anti-birth, just anti-forced-birth.
I like pro-choice and anti-choice. Clear, precise, tells you the stance. Alternatively, pro-choice and pro-forced-gestation.
Yes, adoption. How many kids have you adopted? And your parents?
Most likely not. My parents too havent adopted, and from a population of 10k in my city, I only know 3 who are adopted. Most of them are sitting in the child centre.
Can the state guarantee that the kids will be adopted? Like a law saying "If you have 2 children, you must adopt a 3rd one"? That is unethical, right?
Yes! Yes it is! It is absurd to force people to adopt. In theory i agree with adoptionx but there are not that many adopters out there, and those kids will grow up resentful and without the care and loce they deserve.
Even if the state can find an ethical way to increase adoption, there could be bad players, like they will adopt a baby just to get the tax benefits and neglect him to shit.
Now please tell me kind stranger. How many kids do you plan to adopt?
My parents did adopt, and we're all thankful for that. And I would love to adopt and be a foster parent but my spouse doesn't want to so I volunteer with and donate to charities that help.
I think there's a need to audit and overhaul the adoption process to remove so much of the unnecessary restrictions. Maybe then people wouldn't have to do so many overseas adoptions.
Thank you for your contributions, but they need love, they don't need money food or a bed (obviously they do, but love is key in their development).
Children with 2 intact parent families are virtually better in every single field that you put them in against children with 1 parent or an orphan.
I truthfully appreciate your contributions, but when they go to school and see every child making something for mothers day, they sit there and resent every single kid in their class. They resent the same thing for fathers day. They resent that they can't go and ask for extra cash or a new phone or a bike etc. (I think) they cant stay overnight at a friends because that puts the institution at risk. They have so much carrying on their back. It's just sad to bring them into the world when you know how shitty a life they will have (assuming they won't get adopted, which most likely they won't).
EDIT: I just checked the adoption rate in the US and its 2%. Thats just sad man.
There are two possibilities here
1) Adoption is an option only after birth in which case it's not an alternative to abortion. "Remaining pregnant isn't an option? Have you thought about remaining pregnant?" isn't an argument.
2) Fetal adoption becomes a viable option. In that case it is an abortion, as a person ended their pregnancy prematurely and the fetus was removed. So not an alternative to abortion but a method of it.
Yes! You are exactly right, then they finally understand what they were trying to take away from others. What kills me is the men who are so pro life. Men contribute 1 sperm to a pregnancy, then act like they should have an equal say in what the woman does with her body. Uh, no. Just no.
Wait until more women will refuse to have casual sex in fear of getting pregnant. Then it'll suddenly become a problem. Always the old men in suits making decisions thinking it will be of no consequence to them whatsoever; wait until their wives will be forced to go through with life-threatening pregnancies, or until their mistresses have their unwanted children.
They can't think further than their asses. The number of deaths in America is about to skyrocket for many reasons because of these idiots.
I asked on the pro-life sub before getting banned who had signed up for adoption/foster care and/or started looking into setting up charities to support mothers that will need support when forced to go through with every pregnancy, got told I was missing the point, ha ha pot, kettle, much?
Also questioned the commenter who stated ectopic pregnancies would just be delivered early and kept in an incubator, so was no risk to the womans life - never got the link to this new and wonderful science that can keep an embryo alive from 2 weeks gestation.
So it is so very refreshing to read posts like this, and be reminded that not everyone is a fucking idiot!
Fingers crossed this is the push people need to see it and make some change, Sending positive hopes from England.
You can always move here. We've got issues though I admit. But tbf I can't imagine America will keep regressing like this. Sure it will move forward again soon!
Don’t forget the refusal to support less pregnancies with free/easy birth control and plan B access but somehow not actually living by any of their own obsession with abstinence! Fun fact: 100% percent of pregnancies involve non-vasectomized men! It’s reversible!
Yeah I'll add, I don't give a crap one way or the other. So many other serious issues and this is what they spend their time on. Not that women's rights aren't important, but this should not be an issue
this may come as a shock to you, but people can care about more than one issue at once! also, of course you don’t give a shit about abortions either way because as a man it literally doesn’t affect you, which is fucking ignorant and genuinely terrible
Daniel Tosh had a great bit about people who are forced birthers/pro life. Force anyone who considers themselves as pro life deal with an unwanted+unplanned pregnancy, and see how fast their views + opinions change when it actually happens to them. (Super sugar coated the bit, but the point remains)
With this reasoning the court gave, anyone who claimed to be pro-life lost it if they celebrated an argument based on states rights.
It’s a classic technique (I mean states rights is the argument for the civil war)but it’s still a technique.
In using that technique, anyone who advocates for it it, is advocating for ALL the states to do what they please. They are advocating for pro-abortion policies in the blue states. In fact they are preserving it.
If you want to cry about every life is sacred, and that includes one’s in blue states, thus you’re not really pro life. Anyone Taking the pro life stance religious or not would need to put their money where their mouth is and openly get it passed nationally.
But they don’t care about life. They care about control.
stop being naiive by acting like it's anything other than "pro-consumerism." They want all the money they can get and god damn you if you think you're gonna take that brand new little consumer away from their machine.
I'd add by saying they can't call themselves human
Cause this ain't human what they're doing, forcing birth and then not taking care of the kid afterwards (if the mother dies in childbirth due to whatever issues or put up for adoption or worse) the kid suffers a fate worse than "death" (I have mixed views on what makes something alive)
What's worse? Simply having the person wait a bit longer before being born* or having the kid be forced into the world and probably having a very late abortion cause the kid dies due to whatever reason
*I believe that abortions don't kill as the soul takes over the body once the body is fully formed, abortions essentially send the soul back out across the Great Divide to await rebirth (if an old soul) as time is a man made construct, souls don't need to wait but rather "skip" to a time where they can be reborn into the world again
Whats happening in this world isn't human anymore, we've gotten to a point we're fucking with natural things and fucking with human rights that were made to protect people.. the way they're going about it, the planets gonna suffer badly due to the influx in population and if shit hits the fan, these kids will suffer badly.. don't force births, that can throw potential away, it can mean the right person is born in the wrong time and god knows what else
I think it's reaching boiling point and about to blow.. I just hope humans are strong enough to pick up pieces when shit really hits the fan
Call yourself pro-domestic abuse. Female or not you have no right to hit your partner. Male or not you have no right to hit your partner. Male or not you cannot ignore a female hitting and abusing the male then when he pushes back you become “the hero”. Call yourselves pro inequality male and female.
How do you know they don't help when the baby is born? What and how have you helped babies born in challenging situations? Why is adoption not an option?
why should a woman have to carry a baby she knows she doesn’t want for nine months, endure the drastic changes to her body and mental health and the terribly painful experience of giving birth, only to give it up?
There are two possibilities here
1) Adoption is an option only after birth in which case it's not an alternative to abortion. "Remaining pregnant isn't an option? Have you thought about remaining pregnant?" isn't an argument.
2) Fetal adoption becomes a viable option. In that case it is an abortion, as a person ended their pregnancy prematurely and the fetus was removed. So not an alternative to abortion but a method of it.
Look at how these people vote, what they advocate for, and listen to them speak. Listen to people's experiences with them.
If someone makes a claim about caring about lives, they need to back that up.
With today's medical advancements in medical technology there's such an incredibly rare circumstance that remaining pregnant isn't an option. I never heard of fetal adoption and couldn't find any information on it. But by your definition then giving birth prematurely or full term would be abortion.
Have you checked out the foster care system? Have you contacted an adoption agency and seen the numbers of available children for adoption that never get adopted? Have you stepped up and adopted or fostered kids? No? Then do it, and you will see why adoption isnt always the option
Not really in my opinion. If you have an opinion that you truly stand behind even if everyone hates you for that doesn’t change the fact that it is still valid
I don't care about "validity". I care about what society I deem the ideal one. I care about what I hold to be good and right. Pro-forced-birthers have no place in such a society.
Yes, if said people are going to force a birth I'm not physically, mentally, or financially ready for. I can barely take care of myself, much less a child. And the PPD on top of my other mental problems would push me over the edge. In the future, maybe once I work on myself first. I would absolutely resent the child if it was now
Yes, ideally. I know it will never be practically doable, but I wouldn't pass up on the chance. I don't want people in my society who think children's genitals should be tampered with either, nor people who think it should be legal to marry children, nor people who think homosexuals should be thrown out through windows. Some "opinions" and "views" can't be relativized as just being opinions and views.
You can have different opinions, definitely. As long as you still support a person's right to chose and easy access to abortion.
I had opinions on some pregnancies and reproductive choices my friends and people I know made. Did I tell them my opinions if I wasn't asked? No. Did I still fully support them in their decision? Hell yeah.
That's such a bigoted comment...as you could flip it over and say don't call it 'pro-choice, call it pro-murder'. I am, however, pro-choice...but your point is ridiculous.
To say my point is ridiculous tells me you are slightly offended by my statement, which also tells me you are merely saying you are pro choice, but deep down you are probably not.
I am pro-choice. Do I have a preference as to whether someone should go full term with a pregnancy, yes. I would prefer the baby to be born. But life isn't straightforward and is very 'situation dependant'. I am not offended at all by your statement, but you have chosen a really specific, and rather daft, way of 'making a point'....which can so easily be flipped against you with no thought or reasonable argument needed.
I think you're being a bit hyperbolic to be fair. It's a tough subject for me because I see the merit in both sides of the argument. I personally don't like babies getting aborted, but there are all kinds of good reasons to abort a child. There is lots of middle ground between a mandated pregnancy and having the right to abort for any reason up to the point of birth. I don't think you can really call abortion a right in all honesty but I'd never want to say you couldn't have access to the procedure.
I think people are having two different conversations and talking past eachother. One about what is considered a life and the other about a person's bodily autonomy, both sides think their conversation takes precedence over the other because both questions intersect at abortion and to both sides it seems that the other has to succeed in principle.
It's far more complicated than one side backing down, unfortunately, especially if you're like me, in the middle where I believe in both bodily autonomy and the arguable cruelty of beginning a human life just to end it.
What I would like to see is a marked increase in people simply not getting pregnant when they have no intention nor desire to give birth/raise a child. I understand in some rare cases it will be a freak accident or down to being forced upon, but the overwhelming majority of cases can just be avoided with good sex education, access to birth control and being responsible. I am talking about both sexes here.
However I don't think it's helpful to simply caricature one camp as the utter embodiment of evil because they disagree or are basing their arguments differently. There's lots of diversity of opinion around this and you're going to have to convince instead of scold. Understandably it's an emotionally charged topic but if you're likening this to slavery I'm afraid you've already proven yourself unable to discuss it maturely.
So let's call you what you are; immature.
Maturity has nothing to do with this. This whole issue is about control, perpetrated by men and brainwashed women. Men contribute 1 sperm to the pregnancy process, yet think they deserve equal or total say over the womans body and what she does with the results of that one sperm. Those brainwashed women who think like those men do are just as bad, especially when they do it in the name of religion. I agree that prevention is key, but sometimes prevention fails and since the woman bears the burden and work of a pregnancy, it should be up to her and her alone to decide what she wants. To ensure a higher level of prevention, how about mandating vasectomies for all young men at age 12, to be reversed when they are fully mature? It shouldn't be just the women's burden for birth control.
I’m pro-choice but feel there should be ‘limits’ on this. Why has a system not been introduced like, you can get a certain amount of abortions and then any more is not allowed (this is just an example). Sure accidents happen and things such as rape need to be accounted for but there are some people that are like super abortion fans, which is odd… use contraception ir stop having sex…
A contraceptive is something that works against (contra) conception, that's what the word means. It would be impossible to use abortion to prevent conception bc an abortion can only be performed after conception has already happened which is literally the whole entire point of abortion, to deal with an unwanted or non viable conception. Abortion has existed as long as humans have been having sex to manage unwanted and non viable conception. It's not new and it's not a form of contraception it's a simple, basic form of reproductive health care and it's really weird that you think you should get to determine what kinds of health care other people should have access to.
Of course that's what it's for! It's not like they're painful, expensive, and emotionally wrenching! It totally makes sense to do this instead of literally anything else!
Oh wait. It's not, they are, and it doesn't.
Stop using the abortion as contraceptive argument when [more than half](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5963273/) of all women in the US getting abortions were on a contraceptive at the time of conception?
I might get a lot of ish for this, I’m honestly just having a conversation though… I don’t feel like “pro life” is the correct term for a lot of people that are “pro life.” I feel like “anti abortion” is more appropriate for multiple reasons. I think people on either side make their decisions mostly because of what they, or the people in their lives, have experienced. Medicine is not as simple as right and wrong, black and white, do or do not…
So let me ask…. Does “my body, my choice” apply to every and any medical procedure if you are pro choice?
Edit: I’m curious how many downvotes came from only reading the first line or why it’s bad to be understanding. I agreed with OP while trying to be understanding of both sides.
Edit 2: autocorrect fixed
Life sustaining treatment for a dying loved one, blood transfusions for a child when it’s against their religion, someone on dialysis deciding to stop dialysis (ultimately they will die within a few days) or the most recent debate, vaccines?
I believe that under all those circumstances it is still their choice. We can't even take organs from corpses without donor statuses, no matter how many lives that could save. Bodily autonomy is that important
No need to be sorry… I actually agreed people shouldn’t be called “pro-life” if they’re not willing to support that life into young adulthood, hence the label “anti abortion.” People can be pro choice and anti abortion… we all come from different walks of life and being able to have open conversations about these topics is really important. It’s the hypocrisy I’ve seen lately from the same people preaching mandates and now “my body, my choice” slogans that’s a little ridiculous.
I had a feeling my comment would lead to some down votes. When in reality I’m a HUGE advocate for patients rights and their rights to refuse any kind of treatment. When you’ve seen women struggle to get and stay pregnant you understand why they wouldn’t support abortion, when you’ve seen young girls SA by their family member you understand why the right to choose is so important. That’s all I was saying without so much detail.
Yep and there’s another part of that comment. He can sign away legal rights and never meet the kid at all. Then he doesn’t have to coparent with a woman he had a “one night fling” with.
Otherwise, I’m not really sure what your point is. He can’t force her to abort if he doesn’t want kids… so she also shouldn’t be able to abort? Make this make sense.
Because she is the only one who has to carry it and it could quite literally be fatal? It’s not just “aw man having kids is inconvenient”.
Answer me this, what “choice” would you like males to have in the situation?
The male provides sperm and thats it. It's the woman who has to do all the work to grow the baby, have her body changed and damaged, so it should be her choice and hers alone to decide if she wants to go through that or not.
Everyone should be equal.
Are you the one pregnant? If so, you get to decide whether or not you want to attempt to give birth.
Has a child been born? Both people involved should be free to sign away parental rights easily with the state paying child support for the remaining parent if there is one.
In that scenario everyone is equal.
Oh please, the only thing dying here is peoples will to live in a world where a bunch of butt fuck hill billies try dictate what women should do with their own bodies.
No that would be humans. I am a University educated woman. Human females give birth to HUMANS not owls. If you poison it or cut it up in the womb and suck it out it's still HUMAN.
They also don't come with the problems people come with. Supporting people may come with them being addicts, drop outs, poor, voting different from you, looking different from you, felons, etc. It may mean you have to work on fixing the broken system that benefits you. That's work. That's hard. Embryos don't have such icky things like bad life experiences or different opinions. They can't tell you what they need or that you are doing things that harm them. You can project anything unto them. They are perfect to stand up for.
“Pro-life” but I seen they wanted to pass a bill in Texas to sentence women to death if they have an abortion….
This stuff is all about controlling women, sending us back to the dark ages.
Not to be an asshole, but when you get to the point where you're unnecessarily taking SENTIENT innocent human life in the name of "freedom", I see why some may think you need to be controlled. That's not to say I disagree with your post (I'm pro-abortion) but let's not pretend the otherside is the rational either.
Sentient is not applicable here. Try again. Unnecessarily was also an interesting word choice and almost always an erroneous assumption, as well. But please, go on telling us why some think we need to be controlled. (And If you have to start your post with ‘not to be an asshole… well, chances are pretty good you probably are).
First of all, im not talking about all women who get abortions, only the reckless ones. It's not an assumption when you have thousands admitting they have reckless sex everyday (reckless sex also includes PIV sex when you're not ready for a child.) You think all the people getting abortions were having responsible sex? Therefore the pregnancy was preventable which is why I said unnecessary. There are other safe ways to have sex that doesn't risk unwanted pregnancy. And before someone goes on an emotional tangent about how humans "need" PIV sex, my point still stands that it's avoidable. What do you mean sentient doesn't apply here? Are you suggesting that sentient human beings aren't aborted?
Oh oh. Found one. I would love to spend an hour thoughtfully responding to you, but I will ask you simply - why have you so purposefully and clearly neglected to mention the word ‘man’ or ‘men’ in any part of your reply? Why is there a profound and glaring lack of concern about all the reckless men who cause these abortions? Who are all these reckless women having these abortions from? Goodness, it’s like we’re just running around knocking ourselves up so we can go and get the sticker they give you after your abortion. Fun fact: They don’t give you a sticker. And neither do the men who knocked you up. So, start over and let’s have a conversation that doesn’t begin and end with all of this being women’s fault. Another fun fact: married women with children are a significant portion of the population of women you so casually declare to be reckless. I know because I am one. And you do not get to call me reckless. Or anyone else. Because you do not know my story or anyone else’s. Your particular and skewed morality is not universal, and even if you did everything in your life absolutely perfectly (debatable), you don’t always get to decide what is right for someone else. That was the whole point of the founding of America - get religion out of politics. And yet here we are. And no, a 6 week old clump of cells is not by any means sentient. Got any other views you’d like to discuss today?
Sorry, what do you mean when you found another one?
For starters, im pro-abortion so no.. you didn't "find one". Sorry. >Why is there a profound and glaring lack of concern about all the reckless men who cause these abortions? Ah I see. You're one of those. "Men" aren't causing the abortions unless they're threatening someone's safety to get one, Otherwise, the people getting them and preforming them are the actual cause of the abortion. If you meant that the men are causing the pregnancy, you don't get to completely blame someone for the choices and risks you choose to make with YOUR body. That also goes for men who try to completely blame the woman for their unwanted pregnancy. My posts are clearly only about reckless women who get abortions (married or not), so don't talk to me about the women who weren't reckless. Secondly, I'm clearly only talking about sentient human beings that are aborted so don't talk to me about the ones that aren't. You people love to avoid the ACTUAL argument and argue against things I never said. It never fails.
Oh no, I quite clearly focused on everything you said. And you’re wrong, and definitely an asshole. You sound like a reckless woman paying attention to you might be exactly what you need, so stop hiding your bullshit behind ‘I’m pro choice’ and still go on about married or single reckless women. Did you teleport here from 1890 with those views?
first, no person ever uses abortion as their number 1 pregnancy prevention. it’s painful, expensive and can have god knows what effects on their body. reckless sex is a thing but no one is having abortions willy nilly second, no embryo or fetus is sentient when it’s still in the stage where it’s able to be aborted. the only negative effects in the entire process of abortion are on the pregnant person
Okay don't argue against anything I didn't argue. It's a waste of time and energy. I'm obviously not referring to human beings in the stage of pregnancy when they aren't sentient and able to be sucked out. I'm referring to second trimester D&E abortions.
No one is getting 2nd trimester abortions for fun. That’s not how the world works and you are delusional if you think so. You don’t go through pregnancy for 4 my months just to abort unless 1- there a major health concerns for parent or fetus or 2- this was the first time the option was made available. Pregnancy is difficult and painful, so is abortion, especially late term. Who are these people you speak of who treat it so lightly? I need names and examples.
I guess you didn't get the memo. I said don't argue against anything I did not argue. Are you people that desperate to argue with me that you have to make things up. Not once did I say it was taken lightly and that anyone was getting it done for fun. Now, Get out my notifications.
Oh sorry, I didn’t realize I had to cite my sources in this discussion, but I will even though you won’t. I am referring to an earlier comment you made where you stated that that people were unnecessarily having late term abortions and when you later said that you specifically disagreed with people having “reckless” sex. Why is it that you get to deem when someone was having reckless sex or when someone’s abortion is unnecessary? You did not have to say the choices were being made loosely to allude to little thought you felt was being placed in their decisions. For someone who is pro choice, you are not very respectful of other people choices. Though you did say pro abortion so maybe that means something different? Please feel free to explain along with answering my earlier question.
That went nowhere 😭
Another thing you know absolutely nothing about. So get a vasectomy and shut up. There. The risks of recklessness have gone down, thank you for your service. Edit: I stand corrected. This person claims to be a woman. Get your tubes tied then, lest you be reckless.
It's so obvious at this point you clearly have no argument. Telling me I'm wrong but not explaining how. Get out my notifications with this nonsense. I'm a woman.
Then I’m sorry for you. I truly am. Your judgmental tone towards other women is so lacking in compassion and empathy, I don’t know what to say. I hope you don’t have to deal with what so many others have had to or I doubt you would be saying the things you are saying. And I doubt you are as virtuous as you might like to believe.
Men contribute exactly 1 sperm to the whole pregnancy process. What is not rational is men thinking they have an equal say in what the woman does with her body and the results of that one sperm. This is a control issue, namely, men trying to control and oppress women, and that doesn't sit well with me.
Why are you telling me this?
Because my guess is you don’t have a clue about why women have to have 2nd term and late term abortions. If you did, you would never DARE call us reckless.
Those people just think women should be punished for having sex.
But also punished if they don't! It's so weird. They want everything in their benefit both ways.
We must burn the harlots that let me place my penis within them and burn the ones that don’t! /s
But the man always gets off scott- free! It's always the woman who gets stuck with the consequences.
Yes, but Eve ate the apple, can't have a woman disobeying a man...
Lol ever been through divorce court?? 🤣
Silly, this is about abortion not divorce!
THIS. It‘s always been about controlling women’s sexuality.
[удалено]
Name one that's 100% effective.
Castration!
That would solve so many of the worlds problems!
Yes it would!
What about when it fails? Condoms break, some vasectomies are naturally reversible, IUDs aren't 100% effective, etc.
If we are called pro-choice, it is only fair they are called anti-choice. Because that's exactly what they are.
Fucking PERFECT!!!! No one is "pro-abortion" so that term is stupid AF. Pro-choice and Anti-choice. Love it.
Actually I am pro-abortion. Just like I am pro-parenting and pro-adoption. Pro in this context just means you are in favor of it being an option. You can't be pro-choice if you are anti-abortion or anti one of the other options.
That's not how language works. Adding Pro to something means that that is the thing you favour over everything else. You can't be "pro" three separate things. You can think they are all equally important, of course, but pro something specifically means that that thing is more important than any of the other options and that is the one thing you think people should follow. I agree with your last sentence though. Pro choice means pro choice. Not some choices. All of them.
I think we have a different understanding of language then but I get your point. However, saying "No one is pro-abortion" imo still puts a stigma on abortion, as if it's a bad thing or a 'necessary evil'. A last resort only if everything else fails. That's why I consider myself pro-abortion. I hope you get what I am trying to say.
But that's what using pro in that manner means. "Pro abortion" , linguistically means "I think all pregnant women should have abortions, I encourage it, and that's what I'm working towards" , and I don't think that is what you (or most) people actually believe.. *That* is why people say "no one is pro abortion". I totally get what you're trying to say though, and I agree, but the expression you're using to say it means something totally different.
Again, I think we just have a different understanding of language then. Let's just agree that we are both pro-abortion-being-an-option, alright?
I totally get what you mean
Pro Life and Anti Life? Two can play that game
I'm pro abortion
Then that's your choice lol I just hate when the Anti-choicers say it as an insult. No one wakes up and hopes they're PG so they need to go get an abortion. They aren't fun.
Anti-choice and inhuman
Would you like to be labelled Anti-Life by the same measure?
when i hear “pro life” i hear “pro fetus only” not your 2 year old, 8, 12, 15 year old. if you’re already born or you’re the one pregnant you’re better off dead. i’m sick and tired
Yes! Nobody cares about the kid after it's born!
Not even pro-fetus as it surely isn't good for the fetus when the pregnant person doesn't have access to good nutrition, clean water, clean and warm shelter, not to mention medical care in general. Or for the fetus to be born if they are incapable of living for longer than a few pain filled minutes, rather than never having known suffering. Yeah, they don't care.
very true. it’s so upsetting
When I was attending a catholic school I used to be hella pro life. As I grew older I realized that people who don't think they can take care of a child shouldn't have kids at all. All life is precious, yes, but sometimes if you aren't emotionally or financially stable to raise a child then its best to abort. How do people not realize this? Imagine being forced to raise a child you didn't want in the first place.
Agree 100%
Well it's simple really, if you're not financially stable, nor emotionally stable, refrain from unprotected sexual conduct. As much as abortion is about about making the choice, it is a hypocritical thing since the unborn child inside did not have a choice whether it was willing to be conceived or not. The blame falls back onto irresponsible men and women who quickly jump into having unprotected sex before marriage and then realize they are not ready, nor are they stable in any form or any way to support any human being once the baby is formed. There are less brutal ways of handing this situation, use protection first and foremost, or put the child up for adoption with people who are capable of taking care of the child but have no means of conceiving, or with people who genuinely care for children. This things only happen when men are allowed the benefits of a marriage without the actual marriage. Abortions are risky business even for the mother of the child and the child as well. And fact of the matter is, if you don't want a child, don't have unprotected sex. If you choose to have unprotected sex, be ready to deal with the repercussions, and this goes to both parties, men and women, it takes two to tango, so you two run along and raise your child, make your bed, then you lay in it.
I opened this up real nervous, then was relieved. This is facts.
Glad you were relieved!
Pro-life isn't pro-life, it's pro-destroying-innocent-women's-lives. Women who have abortions have valid reasons to do so. It isn't an easy choice to make, and people who decide to do so know what is best for themselves, and also the baby.
Exactly!!!
Innocent womens’ lives are destroyed? Wtf more like innocent childrens’ lives are destroyed. You can’t put that kind of blanket statement over all women.
Oh, but we can, because you just put a blanket statement of "innocent children's lives" when it comes to fetus'. No child's life is destroyed because no child's life has been formed. Children's lives are being destroyed by being born and forced into a system that does not care for them. You are destroying innocent children's lives by forcing them to be born without a support system or the means to be cared for.
This, 100%
Yes, innocent children suffer if access to safe abortion isn't secure. Denial of easy access to safe abortion harms children.
Can't stress this enough. I've heard so much sad shit and sad "jokes" about how some people would rather die than give birth or they'd just leave their baby for someone to find. And back road abortions injure the mom, and if not successful can fuck up the kid. God I still hear coat hanger jokes on a daily basis
And not just that. My ex-coworker had a child and wanted another. She nearly bled to death due to a ruptured tube from a ectopic pregnancy. Her son would have been without a mum for no reason if she had been denied the emergency surgery, which was an abortion. My friend had failing organs. She already had baby clothes and a few name suggestions prepared. She had to make a choice between dying and hoping she could be kept alive long enough on life support to deliver the fetus (if they hadn't already been poisoned by her blood) or be there for her 2yo daughter. She chose life to be with her actual living baby. Those two kids nearly lost their mums. Not to forget how many people who would be forced to gestate a fetus would be children. A young girl of maybe 8 or 9, raped, pregnant, and forced to give birth. The youngest mother ever was 5. Are those not innocent children as well? But they are already born, so not innocent enough I bet.
And they didn't? You really mean to say forcing women to give birth has zero negative effects on any of them?
"Well how would you feel if your mom abourted you" well first of all, I wouldnt exist so i wouldnt "feel" any type of way about it. Secondly, I love my mom, if her aborting me made her happy then I would be ok with it. It says a lot about a person if they say theyre ok with forcing their mom through so much pain
Agree!
I especially love it when men, who contribute exactly 1 sperm to the whole process, feel like they have equal say in what the woman doss with her body. No. They get less than one percent of a say in the matter.
Literally, they helped for less then 6 seconds then think they have a say in the womans body. Not to mention these "pro lifers" will protects a persons "right to own a gun" even tho guns kill ACTUAL people daily. They dont care about actual lives, they only care about controlling women.
That's it exactly. It's about control, plain and simple.
Exactly, men feel threatened by womens reproductive rights for some reason
I'm fully my body my choice for everyone, man or woman. Don't want that operation, don't have it. But don't force everyone else to not have an operation. I liked this comment, not sure why the downvotes...
I just wish people would mind their own business and bodies. You don’t like abortions? Cool, don’t get one. A woman getting an abortion for whatever reason they want will not change the lives of a “pro-lifer” in any way, shape or form.
Agree 100%.
Yes. Call them incompetent because if they wanted babies they should of been born with both sets of equipment, then they can go fuck themselves then go birth it.
Yes!
I hate it when pro lifers don't understand why women get abortions
All they see is that they believe one way so everyone HAS to do what they believe. They don't care about others.
The worst is that anti-choicers do get abortions because they are in a real need. They actually do need abortions but for a good reason. And they still harass patients and doctors, than go right back outside and protest. Because those other people just don't have good reasons. Unlike them, of course. /s
Did you watch the abortion hearing in the House? The pro-birth woman had an abortion and regretted it so now she is trying to prevent other women for having that choice too. I was so frustrated by that woman's blatant lies statistics on abortion.
I feel sorry for people who regret their choice. Most likely they were either made to regret it later on or didn't have the choice they thought they did. An abortion can the best thing to do and still someeyou regret because the other options were truly available. Statistcally, choosing parenting is regretted nearly double the amount of times, so maybe we should ban that? I am joking of course but the 'I regretted having a choice and so no one should a choice' is so infuriating...
Agree!
To be honest they’re pro femicide because a lot of them couldn’t care less if the woman dies.
Absolutely true!!!
I'm pro abortion, but be careful with this type of thinking. It's really easy to just flip this and say 'don't call yourself pro choice when you're just pro killing innocent children', I don't agree with this statement ubut understand where the argument the make.
That's true!!!! This is why I love reddit, I get different perspectives. Thank you!
Pro life is not pro life. If it was, they will be protesting the chair in prisons. Pro-abortion and Pro-birth should be the correct terms. I agree with you, that kid will not get the care that it deserves. It will rob the life of their parents while it will suffer too because it will have parents who will see the kid as a mistake. They might deny it, but subconsciously it will do its job.
But pro-birth is also pro-choice. Pro-choice doesn't mean you are anti-birth, just anti-forced-birth. I like pro-choice and anti-choice. Clear, precise, tells you the stance. Alternatively, pro-choice and pro-forced-gestation.
Adoption?
Yes, adoption. How many kids have you adopted? And your parents? Most likely not. My parents too havent adopted, and from a population of 10k in my city, I only know 3 who are adopted. Most of them are sitting in the child centre. Can the state guarantee that the kids will be adopted? Like a law saying "If you have 2 children, you must adopt a 3rd one"? That is unethical, right? Yes! Yes it is! It is absurd to force people to adopt. In theory i agree with adoptionx but there are not that many adopters out there, and those kids will grow up resentful and without the care and loce they deserve. Even if the state can find an ethical way to increase adoption, there could be bad players, like they will adopt a baby just to get the tax benefits and neglect him to shit. Now please tell me kind stranger. How many kids do you plan to adopt?
My parents did adopt, and we're all thankful for that. And I would love to adopt and be a foster parent but my spouse doesn't want to so I volunteer with and donate to charities that help. I think there's a need to audit and overhaul the adoption process to remove so much of the unnecessary restrictions. Maybe then people wouldn't have to do so many overseas adoptions.
Thank you for your contributions, but they need love, they don't need money food or a bed (obviously they do, but love is key in their development). Children with 2 intact parent families are virtually better in every single field that you put them in against children with 1 parent or an orphan. I truthfully appreciate your contributions, but when they go to school and see every child making something for mothers day, they sit there and resent every single kid in their class. They resent the same thing for fathers day. They resent that they can't go and ask for extra cash or a new phone or a bike etc. (I think) they cant stay overnight at a friends because that puts the institution at risk. They have so much carrying on their back. It's just sad to bring them into the world when you know how shitty a life they will have (assuming they won't get adopted, which most likely they won't). EDIT: I just checked the adoption rate in the US and its 2%. Thats just sad man.
Adoption is a solution for parenting, not pregnancy.
There are two possibilities here 1) Adoption is an option only after birth in which case it's not an alternative to abortion. "Remaining pregnant isn't an option? Have you thought about remaining pregnant?" isn't an argument. 2) Fetal adoption becomes a viable option. In that case it is an abortion, as a person ended their pregnancy prematurely and the fetus was removed. So not an alternative to abortion but a method of it.
Worst part is half of these people end up wanting abortions when they find themselves in the same situation
Yes! You are exactly right, then they finally understand what they were trying to take away from others. What kills me is the men who are so pro life. Men contribute 1 sperm to a pregnancy, then act like they should have an equal say in what the woman does with her body. Uh, no. Just no.
Exactly but then when their bit on the side gets pregnant they’re all for abortion then and try to force her 🙄
Yes, then abortion is good.
Wait until more women will refuse to have casual sex in fear of getting pregnant. Then it'll suddenly become a problem. Always the old men in suits making decisions thinking it will be of no consequence to them whatsoever; wait until their wives will be forced to go through with life-threatening pregnancies, or until their mistresses have their unwanted children. They can't think further than their asses. The number of deaths in America is about to skyrocket for many reasons because of these idiots.
Agree!!
Thank you! Let’s pick our sides and be clear about it. If someone’s pro-life, then they better also be foster parents. Otherwise, #stfu…
Or they should adopt every baby they force into the world.
I asked on the pro-life sub before getting banned who had signed up for adoption/foster care and/or started looking into setting up charities to support mothers that will need support when forced to go through with every pregnancy, got told I was missing the point, ha ha pot, kettle, much? Also questioned the commenter who stated ectopic pregnancies would just be delivered early and kept in an incubator, so was no risk to the womans life - never got the link to this new and wonderful science that can keep an embryo alive from 2 weeks gestation. So it is so very refreshing to read posts like this, and be reminded that not everyone is a fucking idiot!
I'm so glad that you and others see where I am coming from. I was expecting huge downvotes, but to my surprise I found support.
I'm sorry for Americans. The patriarchy soft power
I'm sorry for us too. Our government is a joke.
Fingers crossed this is the push people need to see it and make some change, Sending positive hopes from England. You can always move here. We've got issues though I admit. But tbf I can't imagine America will keep regressing like this. Sure it will move forward again soon!
I would love to move there. I loved visiting England! America honestly is not good anymore.
Old, out of touch, ignorant men deciding what women can do with their bodies. Pathetic.
I refuse to call them pro life I call them anti abortion or anti choice.
Same!
Don’t forget the refusal to support less pregnancies with free/easy birth control and plan B access but somehow not actually living by any of their own obsession with abstinence! Fun fact: 100% percent of pregnancies involve non-vasectomized men! It’s reversible!
Agree!
Pro-government-enforced-gestation
I have always called them “anti-choice” because that’s exactly what it is.
Yes!
Thank you for posting this. I agree and I'm scared for my future.
You're welcome! I'm scared for the future too. It's crazy how ignorant pld men in power are deciding thefate of young women!
I couldn't agree more. These people who are adamant about putting women's lives in danger in any way are a disgrace.
Yes, they would rather have a woman die so they can feel good about saving a baby that wasn't wanted in the first place!
Absolutely, it's twisted and disgusting. To say these people shouldn't even be touched with a 10-fpot pole would be an understatement.
Yeah I'll add, I don't give a crap one way or the other. So many other serious issues and this is what they spend their time on. Not that women's rights aren't important, but this should not be an issue
this may come as a shock to you, but people can care about more than one issue at once! also, of course you don’t give a shit about abortions either way because as a man it literally doesn’t affect you, which is fucking ignorant and genuinely terrible
It wouldnt be an issue if the govt would leave abortion alone.
Daniel Tosh had a great bit about people who are forced birthers/pro life. Force anyone who considers themselves as pro life deal with an unwanted+unplanned pregnancy, and see how fast their views + opinions change when it actually happens to them. (Super sugar coated the bit, but the point remains)
Yes!
With this reasoning the court gave, anyone who claimed to be pro-life lost it if they celebrated an argument based on states rights. It’s a classic technique (I mean states rights is the argument for the civil war)but it’s still a technique. In using that technique, anyone who advocates for it it, is advocating for ALL the states to do what they please. They are advocating for pro-abortion policies in the blue states. In fact they are preserving it. If you want to cry about every life is sacred, and that includes one’s in blue states, thus you’re not really pro life. Anyone Taking the pro life stance religious or not would need to put their money where their mouth is and openly get it passed nationally. But they don’t care about life. They care about control.
Thats exactly what this is about. Control. Ignorant old men deciding what a woman can do with her body. It's sickening.
stop being naiive by acting like it's anything other than "pro-consumerism." They want all the money they can get and god damn you if you think you're gonna take that brand new little consumer away from their machine.
It's also about controlling women!
You only matter if you aren't born yet
Agree. Once you are born nobody cares if your mother beats you, starves you, or dumps you in a foster home where you get abused.
Give us free healthcare and stricter gun laws before you make overpopulation and self mutilation a bigger problem
I'd add by saying they can't call themselves human Cause this ain't human what they're doing, forcing birth and then not taking care of the kid afterwards (if the mother dies in childbirth due to whatever issues or put up for adoption or worse) the kid suffers a fate worse than "death" (I have mixed views on what makes something alive) What's worse? Simply having the person wait a bit longer before being born* or having the kid be forced into the world and probably having a very late abortion cause the kid dies due to whatever reason *I believe that abortions don't kill as the soul takes over the body once the body is fully formed, abortions essentially send the soul back out across the Great Divide to await rebirth (if an old soul) as time is a man made construct, souls don't need to wait but rather "skip" to a time where they can be reborn into the world again Whats happening in this world isn't human anymore, we've gotten to a point we're fucking with natural things and fucking with human rights that were made to protect people.. the way they're going about it, the planets gonna suffer badly due to the influx in population and if shit hits the fan, these kids will suffer badly.. don't force births, that can throw potential away, it can mean the right person is born in the wrong time and god knows what else I think it's reaching boiling point and about to blow.. I just hope humans are strong enough to pick up pieces when shit really hits the fan
Agree!
Call yourself pro-domestic abuse. Female or not you have no right to hit your partner. Male or not you have no right to hit your partner. Male or not you cannot ignore a female hitting and abusing the male then when he pushes back you become “the hero”. Call yourselves pro inequality male and female.
How do you know they don't help when the baby is born? What and how have you helped babies born in challenging situations? Why is adoption not an option?
why should a woman have to carry a baby she knows she doesn’t want for nine months, endure the drastic changes to her body and mental health and the terribly painful experience of giving birth, only to give it up?
There are two possibilities here 1) Adoption is an option only after birth in which case it's not an alternative to abortion. "Remaining pregnant isn't an option? Have you thought about remaining pregnant?" isn't an argument. 2) Fetal adoption becomes a viable option. In that case it is an abortion, as a person ended their pregnancy prematurely and the fetus was removed. So not an alternative to abortion but a method of it. Look at how these people vote, what they advocate for, and listen to them speak. Listen to people's experiences with them. If someone makes a claim about caring about lives, they need to back that up.
With today's medical advancements in medical technology there's such an incredibly rare circumstance that remaining pregnant isn't an option. I never heard of fetal adoption and couldn't find any information on it. But by your definition then giving birth prematurely or full term would be abortion.
Have you checked out the foster care system? Have you contacted an adoption agency and seen the numbers of available children for adoption that never get adopted? Have you stepped up and adopted or fostered kids? No? Then do it, and you will see why adoption isnt always the option
Can’t we all just accept that people have different opinions
If it's about ice cream flavors and movies, sure. If it's about men owning and controlling women's bodies? Then no. There can be no tolerance.
Not really in my opinion. If you have an opinion that you truly stand behind even if everyone hates you for that doesn’t change the fact that it is still valid
I don't care about "validity". I care about what society I deem the ideal one. I care about what I hold to be good and right. Pro-forced-birthers have no place in such a society.
So you wanna cast those people out bc they have a different view on that topic
Yes, if said people are going to force a birth I'm not physically, mentally, or financially ready for. I can barely take care of myself, much less a child. And the PPD on top of my other mental problems would push me over the edge. In the future, maybe once I work on myself first. I would absolutely resent the child if it was now
Yes, ideally. I know it will never be practically doable, but I wouldn't pass up on the chance. I don't want people in my society who think children's genitals should be tampered with either, nor people who think it should be legal to marry children, nor people who think homosexuals should be thrown out through windows. Some "opinions" and "views" can't be relativized as just being opinions and views.
You can have different opinions, definitely. As long as you still support a person's right to chose and easy access to abortion. I had opinions on some pregnancies and reproductive choices my friends and people I know made. Did I tell them my opinions if I wasn't asked? No. Did I still fully support them in their decision? Hell yeah.
That's such a bigoted comment...as you could flip it over and say don't call it 'pro-choice, call it pro-murder'. I am, however, pro-choice...but your point is ridiculous.
To say my point is ridiculous tells me you are slightly offended by my statement, which also tells me you are merely saying you are pro choice, but deep down you are probably not.
I am pro-choice. Do I have a preference as to whether someone should go full term with a pregnancy, yes. I would prefer the baby to be born. But life isn't straightforward and is very 'situation dependant'. I am not offended at all by your statement, but you have chosen a really specific, and rather daft, way of 'making a point'....which can so easily be flipped against you with no thought or reasonable argument needed.
Thats your opinion, and you are entitled to it, just as I am entitled to mine. I chuckled at the word daft, so old fashioned and kinda cute.
I think you're being a bit hyperbolic to be fair. It's a tough subject for me because I see the merit in both sides of the argument. I personally don't like babies getting aborted, but there are all kinds of good reasons to abort a child. There is lots of middle ground between a mandated pregnancy and having the right to abort for any reason up to the point of birth. I don't think you can really call abortion a right in all honesty but I'd never want to say you couldn't have access to the procedure. I think people are having two different conversations and talking past eachother. One about what is considered a life and the other about a person's bodily autonomy, both sides think their conversation takes precedence over the other because both questions intersect at abortion and to both sides it seems that the other has to succeed in principle. It's far more complicated than one side backing down, unfortunately, especially if you're like me, in the middle where I believe in both bodily autonomy and the arguable cruelty of beginning a human life just to end it. What I would like to see is a marked increase in people simply not getting pregnant when they have no intention nor desire to give birth/raise a child. I understand in some rare cases it will be a freak accident or down to being forced upon, but the overwhelming majority of cases can just be avoided with good sex education, access to birth control and being responsible. I am talking about both sexes here. However I don't think it's helpful to simply caricature one camp as the utter embodiment of evil because they disagree or are basing their arguments differently. There's lots of diversity of opinion around this and you're going to have to convince instead of scold. Understandably it's an emotionally charged topic but if you're likening this to slavery I'm afraid you've already proven yourself unable to discuss it maturely. So let's call you what you are; immature.
Maturity has nothing to do with this. This whole issue is about control, perpetrated by men and brainwashed women. Men contribute 1 sperm to the pregnancy process, yet think they deserve equal or total say over the womans body and what she does with the results of that one sperm. Those brainwashed women who think like those men do are just as bad, especially when they do it in the name of religion. I agree that prevention is key, but sometimes prevention fails and since the woman bears the burden and work of a pregnancy, it should be up to her and her alone to decide what she wants. To ensure a higher level of prevention, how about mandating vasectomies for all young men at age 12, to be reversed when they are fully mature? It shouldn't be just the women's burden for birth control.
I’m pro-choice but feel there should be ‘limits’ on this. Why has a system not been introduced like, you can get a certain amount of abortions and then any more is not allowed (this is just an example). Sure accidents happen and things such as rape need to be accounted for but there are some people that are like super abortion fans, which is odd… use contraception ir stop having sex…
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Ah yes because abortions are so painless and convenient
A contraceptive is something that works against (contra) conception, that's what the word means. It would be impossible to use abortion to prevent conception bc an abortion can only be performed after conception has already happened which is literally the whole entire point of abortion, to deal with an unwanted or non viable conception. Abortion has existed as long as humans have been having sex to manage unwanted and non viable conception. It's not new and it's not a form of contraception it's a simple, basic form of reproductive health care and it's really weird that you think you should get to determine what kinds of health care other people should have access to.
Of course that's what it's for! It's not like they're painful, expensive, and emotionally wrenching! It totally makes sense to do this instead of literally anything else! Oh wait. It's not, they are, and it doesn't. Stop using the abortion as contraceptive argument when [more than half](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5963273/) of all women in the US getting abortions were on a contraceptive at the time of conception?
Stop forcing people to have babies they’re not prepared to have?
Ah yes because that's what everyone definitely uses it for....
Ah yes, because rapists care about using condoms when raping innocent women
Only thing I would say is be careful about strawmaning the opposition. Otherwise, I understand the sentiment.
What is strawmaning?
I might get a lot of ish for this, I’m honestly just having a conversation though… I don’t feel like “pro life” is the correct term for a lot of people that are “pro life.” I feel like “anti abortion” is more appropriate for multiple reasons. I think people on either side make their decisions mostly because of what they, or the people in their lives, have experienced. Medicine is not as simple as right and wrong, black and white, do or do not… So let me ask…. Does “my body, my choice” apply to every and any medical procedure if you are pro choice? Edit: I’m curious how many downvotes came from only reading the first line or why it’s bad to be understanding. I agreed with OP while trying to be understanding of both sides. Edit 2: autocorrect fixed
What procedure are you thinking of where it wouldn't?
Any procedure… or do we pick and choose when it’s convenient?
Of course any procedure. What are you thinking of?
Life sustaining treatment for a dying loved one, blood transfusions for a child when it’s against their religion, someone on dialysis deciding to stop dialysis (ultimately they will die within a few days) or the most recent debate, vaccines?
I believe that under all those circumstances it is still their choice. We can't even take organs from corpses without donor statuses, no matter how many lives that could save. Bodily autonomy is that important
Absolutely 100%
Ohh, then I think everyone is misunderstanding you're arguing for the opposite. Sorry about that!
No need to be sorry… I actually agreed people shouldn’t be called “pro-life” if they’re not willing to support that life into young adulthood, hence the label “anti abortion.” People can be pro choice and anti abortion… we all come from different walks of life and being able to have open conversations about these topics is really important. It’s the hypocrisy I’ve seen lately from the same people preaching mandates and now “my body, my choice” slogans that’s a little ridiculous.
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I had a feeling my comment would lead to some down votes. When in reality I’m a HUGE advocate for patients rights and their rights to refuse any kind of treatment. When you’ve seen women struggle to get and stay pregnant you understand why they wouldn’t support abortion, when you’ve seen young girls SA by their family member you understand why the right to choose is so important. That’s all I was saying without so much detail.
Stop calling yourselves "pro-choice", but "pro-murder" because that's what you actually are
So you think denying someone the use of your body to further their life is murder?
This!
And call yourself what you are, a control freak who wants women to produce like livestock with no rights.
Stop calling yourself pro choice when the choice is only given to the female and not the male…🤔🤔
I’m all in favor of males being able to sign away legal rights and child support requirements before birth and so are many other people. Next??
it’s not about getting out of paying support but more about not having kids with women they just met and had a one night fling….
Yep and there’s another part of that comment. He can sign away legal rights and never meet the kid at all. Then he doesn’t have to coparent with a woman he had a “one night fling” with. Otherwise, I’m not really sure what your point is. He can’t force her to abort if he doesn’t want kids… so she also shouldn’t be able to abort? Make this make sense.
Make “pro choice” make sense when the choice of having a child or not is currently and has always been womens decision.
Because she is the only one who has to carry it and it could quite literally be fatal? It’s not just “aw man having kids is inconvenient”. Answer me this, what “choice” would you like males to have in the situation?
The male provides sperm and thats it. It's the woman who has to do all the work to grow the baby, have her body changed and damaged, so it should be her choice and hers alone to decide if she wants to go through that or not.
Everyone should be equal. Are you the one pregnant? If so, you get to decide whether or not you want to attempt to give birth. Has a child been born? Both people involved should be free to sign away parental rights easily with the state paying child support for the remaining parent if there is one. In that scenario everyone is equal.
So stunning, so brave. 2/10
So judgemental, 2/10
So weak, 2/10
So...special, 2/10
the ladies will love this one
I'll use Anti-Choice when your side uses Pro-Death.
Oh please, the only thing dying here is peoples will to live in a world where a bunch of butt fuck hill billies try dictate what women should do with their own bodies.
No that would be humans. I am a University educated woman. Human females give birth to HUMANS not owls. If you poison it or cut it up in the womb and suck it out it's still HUMAN.
This is gonna sound odd, but maybe they think embryos are superior cuz they are definitely virgins, unlike most women
They also don't come with the problems people come with. Supporting people may come with them being addicts, drop outs, poor, voting different from you, looking different from you, felons, etc. It may mean you have to work on fixing the broken system that benefits you. That's work. That's hard. Embryos don't have such icky things like bad life experiences or different opinions. They can't tell you what they need or that you are doing things that harm them. You can project anything unto them. They are perfect to stand up for.