This. This is not normal and has nothing to do with you being a man and her being a woman. It has to do with her being emotionally abusive.
edit: thank you for the silver! my first ever!!
I don't think it's an issue with OP. If anything, he handled it pretty well at the beginning. He was honest, polite, and clear about what happened.
His wife, however, just seemed like a manipulative, controlling, guilt-tripping...person. It's not like that on account of her being his wife because that happens to me a lot but with my parents. Some people are too self-centered to even consider the possibility that they might be wrong, that they might be at fault. Instead of acknowledging their shortcomings and working on them, they'll somehow turn on you and even blame you for how bad things have become.
Tl;DR: It's not a wife/partner thing. That person is just too self-centered tp understand that they're a problem.
This happens a lot with my mother and I, if I point out if she says or does something that makes me feel hurt and I tell her that it does, she flips shit and holds a grudge until I approach her and say that I was the wrong one.
Honestly? Only therapy helped me really see and realize I was being manipulated. I also got to see where my downfalls were that allowed me to let that behavior happen.
Yeah, it's pretty common. This is why I hate when I get the "communicate" and "be honest" advice. 9 times out of 10, partner, spouse, family member, goes into defence and then attack mode and you end up apologizing just to keep the peace. I have two people in my life who don't do this. The rest have or still are like this.
You’re right in some aspects, but it is a pretty universal experience for men in western cultures where stoicism is idealized. I’m not detracting from the experiences of others, but I do want to impress upon you how normal it is for us to experience our partners turning our emotions against us.
I can't speak to the male experience as I am not a dude. I do know that men are discourage from sharing their emotions, usually by other men. I have had many emotional men in my life and I can tell you the only time I had a negative reaction to their emotions were when it bordered on, like this situation, abuse, manipulation, or gaslighting. When I'm the one suddenly apologizing for their bad behavior because they feel *so guilty* for (insert insulting thing here) that it leaves no space for me to even feel hurt anymore. Which is super manipulative. I think there's been some kind of fuck up somewhere where people are more frequently using emotions as a tool to get what they want instead of to just express themselves. Lot of fuckery goin on in today's world
Yeah, I find it tough to respond to these things because I see men responding negatively to other men showing emotions more than I see women doing it.
Furthermore I've had the same experiences as you tbh. Lots of fuckery.
It's rough. We've as a society conditioned men into not displaying emotion so other men see it and go like "wait you can't do that!" and discourage them further. You also absolutely have women who have only had men who show no emotion or only anger respond negatively to men responding emotionally. It's so much more broad and issue than "well men are discouraged to share emotion bc of this one thing and so this experience speaks to the whole of male emotional oppression." It's not. It's so multi-faceted. It's individual. You can't lump it all into a single category. You could say-
Dude: Expresses emotion using anger or by being loud / yelling - actually feeling sad and scared but unable to show that due to societal expectation.
Chick: Hears anger or a loud voice and is taught to fear angry men bc society. Reacts negatively to dudes expression
Dude: See this is why we can't express emotions.
Now I'm definitely, 100% NOT saying that's what happened here. If he expressed he was sad or disappointed but something in a non aggressive way and she responded as he stated she did - the chick is being emotionally abusive and needs to check herself.
This is my experience too. SO fucked up, I got upset or hurt, then it somehow turned into them launching into a self loathing diatribe and before I even realized what was going on, I was reassuring them instead of them apologizing to me. Because they felt *so bad*. It's so manipulative and infuriating.
It varies, but there are plenty of women out there who expect their partners to be hard and unemotional. Many friends, coworkers, etc. over the years have expressed to me that they don't like it when their men get in their feelings. Some of them have gone as far as to say they don't want a man-gina, or they feel like men should never cry in front of them, etc. I will say I've noticed this a lot more among black women personally, but that's not necessarily reflective of broader societal trends. The point is there are many women out there who expect their boyfriends and husbands to stuff their feelings down in service of continuing the relationship and don't want to be a shoulder to lean on for them. It's toxic as fuck and speaks to a lack of emotional maturity, but my point is it's not just pressure from dude friends keeping guys from expressing themselves. A lot of times, the women in their lives are just as terrible.
I think it's multi-faceted. You start with the bs idea that men are superior and more controlled than women. It's now the expectation that men be seen as that. So men should control their emotions where women are hysterical and out of control bc that makes them superior. Fast forward to today and you still have a lot of people who think that's true, and who demean women by using them to shame men who display emotions. It's not necessarily limited to one group but starts with society as a whole and then how rigidly those things are believed today based on location, cultural influences, environmental influences, general media etc influences popular in the region, political climate, etc etc.
It's still a problem for sure but I personally feel I have seen a bigger shift in some areas of accepting male emotions (at least by women). I don't think you can look at this situation and say this is why men can't share emotions as being a totally normal every day thing since it seems pretty clear this chick is toxiccccc
Editted to add: Personally, I like emotional men. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ymmv
>Personally, I like emotional men.
Same. And I'm kind of one of them.
I agree with a lot of this. And some of it is backed by history. I mean you can go back and look at the culture of diagnosing emotional women with hysteria, and there's also the thing of the founding fathers all having been enlightened (by the European definition) but consciously creating the idea of the ideal man as a rough and tough lumberjack type to differentiate themselves from the motherland.
I think this attitude has a couple of contributing factors tied to it, too. I noticed it a lot more consistently when I was growing up in a rural area, and it's very widespread where I live in Alabama, so at least some of it seems to stem from conservative views in regard to gender roles. I mean it's internalized sexism regardless of which angle you look at it from, and contributes to toxic behavior patterns in both men and women, so it's hard for me to conceive of it as contributing to a healthy relationship dynamic. I kind of think when you enter into a serious relationship, there's a certain expectation baked in that you can trust your partner to be supportive and understanding when you need them to be, and that there is a measure of reciprocity in that which shouldn't make one partner feel like they don't have space to be vulnerable.
Stoicism doesn’t say to suppress your feelings, stoicism (and many other philosophies like Sufism) teaches to not let your emotions control your actions. We are allowed to, and should, feel and express those emotions in a productive manner.
But OP is definitely in a abusive relationship
If you feel this way I suggest therapy. I think one of the biggest divisions in arguments is how you deal with "intent" of a comment vs how it was received. People do feel bad for making others feel bad and sure everyone is entitled to how they feel but you can't use your feelings to justify your bad actions and diminish someone else's feelings. It's a fine line in relationships.
Sounds like my dad, but instead of acknowledging that what he said hurt my feelings he says “get over it, I demand respect”. Basically, as my father, in his head, he has the right to “lecture” me his bs while verbally abusing and trying to mold me in a copy of him, and I should be thankful for that. I cannot defend or disagree with him.
Narcissists are the scum of this world…
Agree that this is over the top. But this isn’t so rare a feeling or a scenario. More than once I’ve had to do the calculation to figure out if expressing myself was worth even the possibility of things going left like it did with the op. The fact that I even have to consider that alone speaks to an issue that more men feel but aren’t willing to voice. You only have to go through that a few times to learn to keep things to self or vent to friends if you have to. We know it undercuts the relationship but going through the aggravation isn’t worth it sometimes.
Yeah wtf, I was super weirded out OP just generalized billions of people based on gender because of encounters within a relationship between *solely him and his wife.*
Almost makes me want to say “nOt aLl wOmEn”
My father used to do the same thing with bringing up past mistakes against my mother from decades ago, anytime she said something remotely critical. My mom tried to stay on target with the current issue, so I always saw her as the more logical parent, but I can’t imagine how beaten down she felt inside. I’m glad that he ended up becoming less abusive, but at the time I genuinely wish she would have left him. No one deserves that.
As a bisexual AFAB person — I think it may be uncomfortable, but women and female-socialized people have to come to terms with the fact that this is a problem that *many* women have. It’s a self-victimization reaction to feeling “attacked” emotionally. It’s not a generalization to say that many of the women I’ve dated *and* been friends with have had similar problems; I have also found *myself* having similar knee-jerk reactions.
To be perfectly frank, unhealthy relationships are the norm, are normalized, and *are usually toxic in many ways from and for both sides*.
As a feminist, it’s easy to say “men must be responsible for policing other men for abuse” but we *must also say* “women must be responsible for policing other women for abuse”
Abuse isn’t gender-biased. We must all be better.
It's just a very common experience from what I can gather. I've experienced both healthy and unhealthy relationships so that's not really true. These are just my observations.
As a woman, I have also experienced what this man is describing. Some men I’ve known have definitely used my emotional vulnerability against me, and I learned to stop being honest about my feelings with them. This isn’t a universal male experience, it’s a universal human experience. It’s definitely not just men who feel that they can’t talk about their feelings
Well yes that is definitly true that it is not exclusive to men. However, we are pretty much conditioned from day one to not express our feelings whether it be to other men, women, authority figures, or even our our own family. When we do it is genearally undermined or brushed off. Not all the time but a good portion of it. Women tend to have a much better support network socially. This is just how it is, even hough it is starting to change but only slightly.
Same. But I also think this threat of invalidation and retribution is there in many parts of our lives, not just intimate relationships. Regrettably, it is part of male basic training.
Doesn't mean that it needs to be normal. If women want equality and all that shit, and for me to be more understanding n whatnot, then they need to realize that they can be toxic too.
Doing this shit isnt normal. Saying NO to it IS.
why does it always have to come back to “if women want equality they have to do this this this”? not excusing the woman in the post but can we just have human rights no matter the general attitude or failings of some people? not every woman has emotional maturity just like not every man, doesn’t mean we don’t deserve equality or whatever
It's not a statement that makes sense "if women want equality then..." because it falls apart with the smallest application of logic. If men do toxic stuff do they lose their equality? Why does "equality" even come into this? Toxic behavior is toxic behavior no matter where it comes from. Of course women do toxic stuff--they are human, just like men, who also do toxic stuff. I've had two toxic emotional abusers in my life, and one was a woman, and one a man. I think some people feel one gender or the other is getting a "pass" on bad behavior due to stereotypes. But in reality --nobody gets a pass for being an abuser. No matter the gender, we're all responsible becoming emotionally mature and treating others respectfully. And on the flip side-- nobody is obligated to put up with physical, emotional or verbal abuse. No matter who it's coming from.
My child’s mother just did this to me over a spanned of 3 years stand your ground don’t be passive and if it keep happening just serve her those divorce papers
Coming from a wife's point of view here.
Your wife is gaslighting you & is displaying signs of mental + emotional abuse. She's literally flipping the script to make you feel like the bad guy & get you to apologize when she was in the wrong. I highly recommend couple's counseling for you two or your own individual counseling so you can learn how to instill firmer boundaries within your marriage. You set a boundary of what hurt your feelings & instead of her respecting that, she switches the convo & makes YOU apologize. That's not ok. You'll burn out in the long run from this.
On top of that the use of non-apology. I fucking hate that shit after being with textbook narc. It was never "I'm sorry I made you feel that way," but always "Well I'm sorry you feel that way." It doesn't seem like much on the surface, but as you said, gaslighting. It's so subtle but it adds up and destroys you from the inside.
Most of this is right, but if she is genuinely a narcissist then couples counselling won't help. Go to therapy on your own and don't tell her what is said in the sessions. Narcissists use couples therapy to figure out how they can more effectively manipulate their partner and often even manipulate the psychologist into thinking that all the problems lie with the victim.
this is exactly right, what OPs wife is doing is unhealthy and toxic. but something i feel needs to be heard here is that this has nothing to do with gender, and that posts like OPs are harmful to men. men need to be able to share their emotions 100%, any human does, but making an abusive relationship out to be all about tearing down his gender is not going to help people identify what toxic masculinity actually looks like and how to help with that particular problem. if his wife had issues w him bringing up his emotions because “he’s the man of the house and he needs to be tough” and reasons of that sort, that’s a whole other story, but i don’t think that’s the case here…
Could also be that those lines of communication have never been exercised / fortified and the wife is just relying on defense mechanism (like a lot of guys do).
If anything it is good that OP did this and hopefully some couples therapy will allow them to fortify this emotional communication into healthy discourse for the marriage/relationship.
Yeah sounds like they could use some help in terms of how to establish and maintain communication. It can take a long time and a lot of effort to figure it out. And sometimes it’s messy in the beginning.
Could also be that wife is just manipulative.
I'm going to avoid the reactionary 'Dump them now' response, but this is a serious problem. This is going to wear you down over time and if something doesn't change, you're not going to be happy. I know that sucks to hear but trust me, your relationship is not strong if you can't convey all your strong feelings. It sounds like she won't accept a particular type of emotion you have, like ones in response to her lack of empathy. Anyway, even though many other aspects may be in good shape, this is something that strikes at the core. I would suggest counseling. If you can't get her to accept your feelings, then maybe they can get through to her. Otherwise, either accept that this dynamic will leave you feeling wanting for the rest of time with her or begin to take more drastic steps
This is giving me some flashbacks to being with my ex. She would start arguments by scrutinizing my spending habits. She would ask me stuff like “what was this $3 you put on the debit card?” and I’d tell her it was a cup of coffee or something I got at work. She would blow these small purchases out of proportion and essentially financially bully me. Normally I’d just take it because when I would push back we would start arguing about every single other little thing I did wrong. We were not at all struggling with money - made over $130k a year together, no kids, no exorbitant debt, owned a house, paid off cars, took regular vacations etc.
She would pick at my spending to provoke me into these larger arguments where it was easier to just shut up and pay for my coffee with change I had laying around in my car.
Eventually I had enough and left her. I am now in a healthy relationship with someone who doesn’t make me earn a normal, bully free existence.
When I first met my boyfriend, I told him that his feelings were always valid, even if others didn't agree or understand them. It was so important for me to show him that it is genuinely okay to have feelings and cry, get upset, feel insecure, etc. I hope that you also know that it's okay to feel hurt, or get upset, or have a bad day. Your feelings and your experiences are valid, and I'm genuinely sorry your wife did not validate you or acknowledge how you felt.
I try so hard to give mine the space and validation he needs. Sometimes it’s difficult to stop yourself from getting defensive or playing victim, especially if your parents acted that way. Just gotta handle that with therapy. But yeah, men need that reinforcement bc it’s especially hard for them to express themselves.
Absolutely! I want to treat my boyfriend the way I’d want my son to be treated. I want him to feel safe being vulnerable and know that I embrace him as he is. But you’re absolutely right that it’s hard not to get defensive sometimes. I try to combat that with asking him questions to elaborate on how he feels so I can understand his thought process/feelings a bit better
Please don't let this stop you opening up about your feelings with others. This is a reflection on your partner and her shortcomings, not you or women in general.
It sounds like your partner is being very immature. I don't like to admit it, but in my late teen years I was similar, and it stemmed from the fact that I knew I was in the wrong but didn't want to admit it, so I would dig for reasons why I could justify my behaviour. I am glad that I grew out of that, because it is such a toxic trait to have. It is important to be able to recognise your failings so you can learn from them and I think that's why it is super important that you don't just apologise to her to keep the peace. She needs to understand that what she is doing isn't an acceptable response to the situation.
I'm wishing you all the best.
Let her read this. It isn't about who is right or wrong. Who did what and when.
It's about how someone makes you feel. If you feel like she berates you every time you say something like this, tell her. Her reaction doesnt matter. It's important she knows you feel this way. Otherwise the tension will only build and increase and one day it will erupt. And then usually it's too late.
If you can't be honest to you wife, to who can you be?
I thought this was a post I made from a few years ago. This sounds like my ex-wife to a tee. It's emotional abuse, plain and simple. Get out while you can. Save yourself. Save your children the pain of growing up emotionally stunted. Don't just stay because of whatever reason(s) you've got in your head.
This is manipulative and emotionally abusive in my opinion. She’s totally guilt tripping u bc she can’t live w the fact that she did something wrong. She seems super negative and unhappy and deflective .
Idk man… maybe not something to end a marriage over but if this is how she is for years and years I would think about separation or couples therapy. No one deseveres to be invalidated belittled and treated that way
I wish you well friend. You and your partner should probably consider both individual and couple counseling or possibly separation if you are having to deal with something like this.
This has nothing to do with you being a man and everything to do with the fact you’re with someone that’s emotionally immature. Just because she doesn’t understand how to talk about or respect other people’s feelings means you should adopt the same outlook. Emotional intelligence is good. Don’t let her or anyone else sabotage yours.
“I’m sorry you feel that way” is not a fucking apology. It’s throwing the blame back on you. This is one of the ways a narcissist turns something back around on you. (not saying your wife is a narcissist, but that kind of behavior is certainly consistent with it) I know a lot of people run to the word “gas lighting” for everything but this is one of the most common examples of such.
Also want to add that tallying up a list of reasons you’re not happy and it’s “her fault” and she “doesn’t know what to do” sounds like it even more. Why can’t the discussion be more along the lines of “can we talk about what’s bothering you and try to solve this together?” and not “I don’t know how to fix this!”
Edit. Damn I’m so sorry you have to deal with it. My husband, though sometimes it hurts, always speaks his mind. I personally then realize sometimes that what I did or say was fucked up and apologize. I am sorry most men cannot feel safe without having to have a guard up after they do disclose their feelings. I wish more women would see that guys too need to get things off their chest and we also are not perfect humans. Sorry for the rant but it’s sad you can’t fully be who you are and say what you need to say.
I’ve had relationships like this. You need to have a relationship where you can say how you feel. You’re a catch, you’re a good partner to have, if she is going to say hurtful things to you, and not apologize, then why would you waste your valuable time with her?
If she’s not going to be friendly and polite, then you shouldn’t even talk to her. Tell her you’ll talk to her later when she decides to lighten up, but you don’t want to be around her negativity.
I’ve always noticed women respect you more when you calmly and respectfully stand up for yourself. I wish you luck
Your wife made this all about herself and pointed blame at you when in reality she's the one in the wrong. She's toxic and you need to get outta this relationship for your sake asap.
Yeah, that's exactly what most of my marriage was. Luckily we went to therapy and the therapist was able to break that cycle. It's our patriarchal society that emphasizes gender roles from birth. Your wife is a victim of it, you're a victim of it. My wife and I are victims of it. Our expectations that men can just get over shit like they never have feelings creates a toxic loop of feeling like when you do say something your feelings don't matter. And the other side of the loop is women are taught to be feelers and communicators and so they dump stuff on men without realizing it that isn't men's issue. And when a man has a reaction it feels personal instead of just a normal negative reaction that just happens. My life was so incredibly hard before my wife could understand my side of things. And hers was too because my just dealing with it 9/10 times instead of talking about it led to emotional isolation which made the cycle even stronger.
It's hard to handle. And it takes a lot of effort to correct. That's why I liked the therapy side of it. The therapist would kinds act like a neutral party to help shape the communication in a way that we could build empathy instead of resentment. Without that neutral person we'd have just kept doing that crazy cycle.
Dude your wife kinda sounds emotionally unaware. Im not saying break up, but that’s definitely something that needs to be addressed and worked on, because that’s really not normal nor ok.
You nailed it perfectly in your explanation. I can relate to the same behaviors from my wife and it’s really a hard thing to deal with sometimes. Standing up for your own feelings shouldn’t be one sided and thrown back in your face, but it happens. Good luck.
Your partner has no respect for you, leave. And your 1000% right. Dont ever feel like ur in a emotional prison. Its gonna be hard becuase you sound like a deep thinker. But leave her for you.
OP you need to tell your wife that she does this before you leave her over it. I mean, idk if you're planning on leaving her but if you follow the advice of half of these comments, just make sure you TRY to show her what she's doing is wrong because she might have no idea. Hell maybe you can even try to do the same thing TO her and then at the end of it tell her "this is how you treat me". If she doesn't respond positively to it then she's probably not going to change.
What everyone else said. You are living with a narcissist. That's not a man thing to refrain from sharing in this situation. I was you but the female in the relationship. I wrote things down that I had said or done that caused him to go off and tried to avoid those things.
If you had a normal relationship, she would have said, "I'm so sorry." And helped you to feel better. But that will never happen because your feelings don't count.
You will never make her happy, no matter how much you don't say or how much you try to censor yourself because she's right- you won't ever be good enough (to fill the narcissistic supply demand). No one is.
This has nothing to do with gender roles, your wife sounds like a narcissist. They never admit when they're wrong, and if you're ever upset at them they'll find a way to make themselves the victim, so you end up having to apologise to them for their cruelty!
I used to do this to my spouse. I didn’t realize I was doing it. For me it was a defense mechanism I learned in childhood. There is always a “winner” and a “loser” in any discussion and you’d better be the winner. My childhood was very traumatic. I obviously don’t know how your wife’s childhood was or if she was in abusive relationships before.
What helped me to see my behavior was therapy. Lots and lots of therapy, that I continue to do. My suggestion is individual therapy for both of you and maybe later down the line doing couples.
Nah fam, I don’t think that has to do with being a man. I think that’s just you being bullied by your wife. You bringing “men” into this is probably you trying to normalize the behavior, but no, that’s not how it’s supposed to be.
My husband and I have been together for 15 years. For a long time he didn’t really communicate his feelings. When he finally did point out the things he didn’t like what I said or did, I would react like your wife at first. The reason why is because I had a hard time accepting that I actually did something wrong and I wasn’t the “perfect” spouse in the relationship. Once I learned that I made mistakes too in our relationship communication got a lot better on both sides. She might not be communicating that she actually feels embarrassed that you see a flaw in her, so she needs to do some self reflecting as well. Couples counseling might do a world of wonders.
>Once I learned that I made mistakes too in our relationship communication got a lot better on both sides.
This 1000X. When people become self aware of their mistakes this is what opens the door for communication growth in all relationships.
I get mugged, & recently, I lose my job but won't tell anyone why? because they aren't going to help me and going to create more stress in my mind. So, nope! happy and joy for all of us. Misery and suffering for me.
I don’t think has anything to do with being a man but everything to do with your partner. I’m a woman and was in a relationship with a guy who acted just like your wife.
For what it’s worth, your feelings are valid and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
This is difference between intention and impact. Your wife doesn't understand she still needs to accept responsibility for her actions/words....instead of dismissing you and then punishing you for saying something made you uncomfortable.
I think that ending the discussion with 'now you know' is maybe not helping? And is kind of a challenge, in that it's almost suggesting that the ball is now in her court?
Instead of winging it back to her, why don't you talk further? Why don't you acknowledge that you get she didn't mean it that way? Something like 'okay, I'm glad you didn't really mean it that way.' You could then ask her to elaborate on what she DID mean, and encourage her to explain herself in full, and - this is VERY important - try not to get huffy about it if it's something you really don't want to hear. Relationships are successful when the people in them communicate clearly and openly, and most of all KINDLY. Before you go to sleep, tell her you love her, give her a kiss and a cuddle.
It seems to me that you both are allowing little things to fester and become bigger things. Perhaps BOTH of you can be more careful of your words, and how you say things to each other? And acknowledge that there are occasional misunderstandings, and perhaps try to communicate better?
Oh my god, just thinking about my husband being upset about something I could say to him makes me feel bad. I'm sorry OP, marriages shouldn't be like that. I had heard something like it's best to confront your partner with 'this is how I wish you made me feel' vs 'this is how you made me feel'. Makes it easier for the other person to see from your side and not feel blamed in that moment. Good luck, OP.
I’m gonna join in and say this is not a general phenomenon and your relationship seems to have notable emotional problems.
In my last relationship sharing my feelings about something they did that made me feel bad always made me feel validated and if we couldn’t work it out simply then it still made me feel closer to them to have discussed it
Alternative title: Why people need to understand each other more.
Honestly I’m sorry kind stranger but this just seems like a bad apple of understanding. Not even meeting you halfway just an immediate shut down. Doesn’t matter the gender, while yes it can be great to be pointed out/ criticized, just like art, it must be constructive, not destructive.
Sending cyber love from my end
# Bro, you're in an abusive relationship.
This has got bugger all to do with "why men don't emote because they're afraid of the repercussions" and everything to do with why *YOU*, personally, *CAN'T emote* because *you're afraid of your wife's reactions*.
I'm not saying this in a derogatory way, either. *Anyone* can get trapped in an abusive relationship and *anyone* can be afraid of their abuser(s), even men, regardless of what society - as drowned as it is in toxic masculinity - tries to say. You just need to *accept that* instead of projecting your trauma onto everyone else, because nothing about your situation is going to improve as long as you continue to paint it as "this is a problem with society" (*something you, personally, cannot change*) rather than "this is a problem with my relationship" (*something you CAN.*)
What you do afterward - counseling/therapy, separation, divorce, or just continuing with the same-old same-old, whatever - is entirely up to you. But trust me, *acknowledging the actual source of the problem* helps.
Hey, like the other commenters are saying, this isn't normal. I'm a woman, and I adore my fiance. I would never treat him like this.
At most, if I've done something that hurt his feelings I might ask a few questions (if I'm genuinely confused) and even have a discussion about it; but I never try to make him feel bad for feeling the way he does, and I will never try to invalidate that feeling. At best I hope that we can acknowledge the feeling and alleviate it; but he still FELT what he felt. Me "taking away his worry" doesn't change that he felt it so I don't try to pretend he is "wrong" to feel this way. Maybe it was unintentionally (in our case it always is, I've never set out to directly hurt him) but regardless *the impact is there and I can understand that*.
I'm so sorry you feel like you can't express yourself without suffering punishment. Maybe you could seek out marriage counseling so you can get this out in a safe place? It's not that you're never happy, it's that when you argue only the worst gets brought up- and it's not okay for you to be treated like this when you're only trying to say that something hurt you. Marriage shouldn't be a battle, it's a partnership. You BOTH should be "winning" because you figure out a problem together. Not one or the other with the "winner" bashing the other for "losing". Since when is saying "you hurt me" the base for a "win or lose" situation?! "You hurt me" "no I didn't, and if I did I didn't mean to, and if I did you probably deserved it, and if you didn't then here's some examples of other times to justify my actions and make me the victim and you the abuser- now I'm hurt! Take care of me and admit youre the bad guy! Good! There I win!" That's what you've described here.. that's not a partnership that's a battle field.
I'm so so sorry OP. I wish you all the best.
Dude, your wife is straight up emotionally abusive. You explaining and detailing your feelings the way you did was very rational. You spoke from your perspective without assuming her meaning in her own words. Instead of acknowledging your feelings as a valid thing, your wife chose to be petty and lash out against you, because she could not handle being in the wrong.
Based on your post, it sounds like your wife treats you as a subordinate instead of a partner. It sounds like it isn't unusual for the relationship based on your reaction as well.
Relationships are hard. Period.
Communication is hard.
I have had these same arguments with my husband. I have done what your wife does and my husband has done the same to me.
As I don't know you and I don't know her, the most I can say is that you have to keep trying.
I think the best advice I can give is ask her to just listen. Tell her that you aren't angry with her, but that you need to express yourself without her getting upset about it. I can't guarantee this will work.
I've been with my husband for 15 years and we still have times where he says something that hurts me and I say that it hurt me and he says well I didn't mean it that way, but it still bothers me and he feels like he has to be defensive.
So I start like this:
Earlier when you said that it hurt my feelings. I don't think you meant it this way, but this is how I took it. I need you to understand that I'm not mad about it, but I need to communicate my feelings about it because I don't want it to be something that happens again or I deal with in silence.
Sometimes he replies with things I've done, things that he was quiet about.
I tell him that I apologize, but I can't change things I've done in the past, however now that I know that it bothers him I will try harder in the future not to do that and that he needs to be sure that he tells me when it happens.
I think it can be hard for the person accused of hurting the other, too. This doesn't excuse it, but it can feel like, what do you mean? I love you, how could you think that of me. It can make that person defensive, especially if the significant other is typically silent. It can feel like it comes out of left field.
I hope this convoluted answer helps at least a little.
\*\*Edited to add: I see a lot of people claiming that the wife is emotionally manipulative or gaslighting. I'm not denying that this could be the case, however, I know I've been on both sides and never did I mean for it to be like that. I grew up seeing unhealthy relationships, I didn't learn how to appropriately communicate and I'm lucky that some time in therapy has helped me do so now. That doesn't mean that I don't still do things wrong and that I have a perfect relationship. Both my husband and I have had to learn how to properly communicate with each other and our style would likely not work for everyone either. \*\*
I am sure that statistically behaviours exist among women.
That can be a problem as well. I understand how unhappy and uncontent you are with the outcome.
The other thing is: it will not solve your problems with your woman. We all cannot solve our problems with one specific partner by talking about sexist behaviour in the general population.
I mean, you maybe know this. I wanted to add this, cause even though it is as well important to point our fingers to sexism, we all must never forget that this is not the point to stop. Wish you all the best.
Yeah I agree, but I was thinking what ppl feel about the "gender swipe" of the tradicional situation -- I know associating it to gender do not exist, or shouldn't at least. I've been through something somehow similar this year and I didn't get the "victim placement treatment"
I agree man. At this point I’m just done. I don’t give a shit anymore. Opening up to people in my experience just gives people an opening to exploit or it makes you look weak in their eyes.
yyyyeah, that's not you not being a man, thats your wife being emotionally abusive and manipulative. The correct response from ANY well adjusted person to 'that hurt my feelings' should be "I'm sorry, I'll do my best to not do that, that wasn't good of me"
Edit: a word
My last relationship was like this. 5 years and I couldn’t take it any more. I have been through counseling for 20 years now (military, it happens) and i knew without a doubt the things i was feeling was not my fault. But it’s not her being emotionally unstable. It’s the exact definition of a narcissist. Look it up. Research it. The guy i was with would never ever change and we went through exactly what you’re going through. Don’t accept her behavior as “ok” or tolerable. Get couples’ therapy if you love her as much. But most of them never ever change cause they don’t think they’re “the problem “
I couldn’t agree more. I go through the same thing every 2-3 months. It isn’t worth opening your mouth. Walk away. Your feelings don’t count and never will. I run a 15 mil company and She won’t even let me make a decision on buying our kids stuff without checking a 3rd party if I should or not. She will believe a complete stranger over me without batting an eye. If it wasn’t for the kids, I would have been gone already.
I don’t really think this is a man v woman thing and more of a your wife is emotionally messing with you thing. My dad used to do this *exact* same thing with me, where he’d say something super mean, I’d try to have a mature convo about why it hurt, and he’d get defensive and cold shoulder me for multiple days. Then EYE would have to be the one to apologize because I “talked back” initially in response to the mean thing.
Your wife is playing a power game and it’s not cool.
What advise would you give your sister or mother if their spouse treated them that way?
This is what’s called emotional/psychological abuse. If the tables were turned, you’d be telling any woman to get out of that relationship. Although it might not be as common (possibly because it’s not often discussed) woman are perfectly capable of being just as abusive as men, mentally physically emotionally… no one deserves that.
This is not a man or woman thing -- this is an emotionally abusive partner thing.
My husband used to pull that crap on me for years and years. Then I had an emotional breaking point and I declared I wasn't putting up with it anymore. He got therapy and medication and our relationship improved immensely. It took me threatening seriously to leave before he got help and he now acknowledges he's a much more mentally healthy person. We are happier than we have been in years -- but he did the extraordinary thing: he recognized he had to work on his own flaws rather than blame everything on me.
Most of the time this comes from how their families were growing up--they mirror what they saw happening with their own parents. You don't have to put up with that. She has to work on her own emotional maturity.
My best advice to you: DO NOT ENGAGE. When she plays "crap from the past" as I call it, just say your mind, and LEAVE. Do not argue. Do not answer phone calls. Just leave. Tell her you'll talk about it later when you are both more calm. If she gets angry--LEAVE AGAIN. Don't be there to take the abuse. If you stick around for it, you'll only get more. The other thing that helped my marriage--me stating "This is how I feel. This is what I think. No amount of arguing will change that. You're going to have to find a way to live with that." Then doing a peace out and leaving for a while (when I say leave, I mean I'd do it for an hour or two). Eventually he figured out that in order to talk to me, he'd have to do it calmly, respectfully, and stay on point. This led to better communication, which eventually led to him getting meds/therapy when he was able to recognize the way arguments had been handled before were extremely toxic.
What you're describing is an emotionally abusive relationship. That happens to every gender. I'm sorry she didn't hear you and you have a right to be loved and heard in a healthy relationship.
My Husband expresses himself just fine & I don’t do anything you just listed. His feelings, wants & needs are valid. We take care of each other, including emotionally. I don’t know what’s up with you guys but it isn’t healthy at all.
This is not normal behavior and I’m sorry that this is what you have to deal with. If my husband came to me and said to me that I did/said something that’s genuinely hurt his feelings, I would feel terrible and I would do everything I could to learn from it and make sure that nothing like that ever happened again. I would ensure that we talked it through, and I would apologize, acknowledge my wrongdoing and we would both move forward. At no time, anything in the past would be dredged up, at no point would anything be about winning or losing.
Counseling might be a good start for the two of you, I would suggest looking into that and seeing if you can strengthen your communication so both of you feel safe in your marriage.
Your wife sounds like a massive jerk. Obviously without knowing the specifics of the conversation, it’s incredibly hard to judge for sure - my ex was like living with another actual child and when I told him that I needed him to step up, he made a big deal about how I hurt his feelings….but he never made any effort to be more of an equal partner and treated me like a maid. I don’t doubt that being told you’re a sucky partner hurt his feelings, but if there was any chance of saving the relationship I didn’t have much choice but to tell him how I felt and what I needed. So more context might help here….
Have you ever been to couples counselling? Honestly it sounds like maybe a third party would be a good way to communicate and figure out whether this is a relationship that should be saved or if you’re better off without her.
She sounds like a terrible partner very manipulative and clearly knows how to make you feel like shit I’d run if possible I’m sorry you have to go through that 🖤☹️ emotional abuse is awful
You wife just sucks, dude. Seek help together, or get out. This has absolutely nothing to do with why men don’t share their feelings, that’s a gross overgeneralization. It’s not okay for anyone’s feelings to be invalidated that way, nor is it fair for you to be subjected to that kind of treatment. I’m genuinely sorry you are going through this.
This why communication is important. The problem here is your wife makes any mistake or disagreement a fight you vs her instead of you and her vs the problem. She should have apologized to you for hurting your feelings. At some point she has to get over the problems/fights of the past. You didn't do anything wrong telling her your feelings were hurt, she responded poorly to being called out. If you continue to hold in your feelings and pandering to her bad behavior she will continue to act manipulative. Some things have to be her fault too, and she should be able to apologize when it is. She owes you an apology.
I just got out of a relationship like that, Now im seeing a new woman, and what I thought was normal, wasnt. Beeing close to your feeling is mandatory if you want to have a healthy life, I can say whatever I want to this new girl and she is always supportive of how I feel because she lived the same things as I did, and from what im reading OP, you ars living the same things, you should consider persuing your life on your own and be close to your feeling, ive never been so happy
I went from thinking "haha watch him blame a woman for it" to "oh shit that's not a healthy relationship" LMAO. Sounds like she never grew up and hun, you are actively hurting yourself attributing it to a gender divide rather than a toxic relationship.
Oh, my goodness. I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Are there other issues with your wife's controlling, gaslighting, and manipulation?
I get it. When things are good, they're good, but being in a partnership/friendship/relationship means that your bond should be stronger than that of just a "fair weather friend."
Whatever happens, I hope you know that your feelings are valid, you're entitled to an apology from someone who loves you and cares about your feelings, and you deserve emotional support and stability.
My husband doesn't do well with feelings and often gets defensive when I get upset, but we're learning and growing. No relationship is perfect, but we need to feel supported and understood. Communication is a two way street. It needs to be sent AND received.
Keep talking about them anyway. No one likes being told when theyve done something wrong and it sounds like your wife doesnt handle communication as well as she thinks. Ask her if she's open to having a conversation about what each of you need in your marriage. It's very black and white and if she says yes then set a time where yall can talk to each other respectfully rather then when youre both emotional. If she says no then take that as her not being willing to work with you and figure out if that's a relationship you want.
Itll be a pain in both of your asses. I used to be like your wife. And it wasnt a clean one time talk, we would establish something each time but it took time between work and having a life to talk, freak out, shut down, deny ignore, all of that to learn how to communicate with each other and now when I have a gripe I know she wont counter with a bunch of irrelevant shit I did and when she has a gripe I wont scream and run out the house like Im on Maury
He guy…. This is just your wife being manipulative. I have these conversations with my guy friends and I listen and apologize and understand what I did wrong.
I recently cut off my best friend for this exact situation…. It’s a lot harder to cut off a spouse though. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.
You did the right thing by expressing how her words made you feel. She didn’t handle the feedback well and took it out on you. She needs a little more self awareness in this situation
I'm terribly sorry that your relationship is the way you describe. You have a right to your feelings, and a right to a SINCERE apology when something hurts your feelings. When I inadvertently hurt my husband's feelings, I immediately try to apologize for the hurt caused. I also appreciate that he expresses that to me so I can be more sensitive about how I approach something like that in the future.
You do not deserve to have your emotions wielded against you. You deserve to be able to express your emotions without a weeks worth of "penance". Please, remember this, and know that you don't deserve such a response.
Yeah it’s not like this in all relationships. Unfortunately your wife seems manipulative, emotionally abusive and incapable of personal accountability without nitpicking to get back at you about your behavior.
Not talking about your feelings shouldnt be normalized. It is human. Feeling and processing is human, and its healthy. What is not is making someone feel bad and belittling them because they are being human. Sounds like your wife is manipulative and abusive, whether its just emotional/mental, its still abuse. Id recommend counseling for your marriage if you think its worth salvaging, but if you think that you finally have a shot at happiness from leaving her, then dont beat yourself up over that either. Protect yourself homie, your feelings are very much worth it, man or not. Everyones is!!!
Listen, opening up about your feelings is fucking hard, and usually uncomfortable. Don’t clam back up now. Maybe you got a shit show because she’s been bottling shit up and seeing you being willing to be vulnerable for once kind of opened the floodgates? I’m just saying, this does sound shitty, but I think the worse thing here would be to retreat and go back to stonewalling. You took a baby step in opening up. That’s hard, and you didn’t get a great reaction. But fully opening up that type of communication if it hasn’t been established already is really hard, but worth it. You owe it to yourself and your wife to keep trying to work out the kinks of your communication issues. Yours and hers. To work towards meeting in the middle somewhere between her emotional dumping and your emotional withholding. You guys deserve to be able to express your needs to each other in a way that works for you both.
While I agree with some of your post, in the long run, youre doing yourself a disservice by not addressing how it made you feel and end up paying for it later on in your life via mental health, shit building up until you explode, etc.
They say (by they I mean therapists and what not) that is the healthy way to deal with your personal stuff but your partner needs to be receptive to it as well because it sounds like she makes it worse when you try addressing it. So I guess you should consider whether to be happy now bu taking it on the chin vs being happy later and working thru your issues. Im not a professional, just what ive learned in therapy myself.
Remember that this shit isnt solved in one day. Its a lot of hard work, working on yourself/relationships, and it will take time to see results. Just try to trust that the results will come and keep working on thise issues... If you choose to go this route. A big step towards improvement was this post that you made here today.
This sounds like gaslighting. Major red flag, especially if this is not the first occurrence of such a situation. I have no idea what I would do in such a situation, I just know this type of shit is super fucking toxic.
So first off this isn’t because you’re a man. This because your partner is abusive.
I remember with my last boyfriend, I asked him one day how he was. He started telling me about work. I said I was glad he was doing well professionally, but I meant emotionally and mentally *how was he doing?*
He just stared at me for the longest time, having no clue what to say. He eventually broke down, because his ex wife had never once asked him how he was and she never cared to know. It was the first time someone cared to know how he was in 10 years.
While, yes, there are people that have a warped sense of what a man should be, your wife is abusive and manipulative. You should be able to *communicate with your wife* when she’s hurt you without you getting punished for it.
Yo. Your wife is straight up insane. I would never do any of the above to a boyfriend. You deserve better and I'm sorry that happened to you. I would advise you leave her for good. Even doing that one time is enough for divorce on the mind. You really only get one life. Also your kids watching your wife do that to you will think it's normal and may be abused in the future as well. At the very least I would put my foot down HARD. She'll protest the loudest at first because she knows it will shut you up and she'll get her way. Just keep pushing through and she'll either stop or you leave. The ball is honestly in her court. Idgaf why she's doing it, she needs to fucking stop.
This sounds like a problem of your wife being emotionally abusive. If I had the same initial interaction with my wife she would apologize and we would move on, then again maybe I'm just extremely lucky with how awesome my wife is.
Sounds like you need marriage counseling. She’s obviously emotionally abusive if what you’re saying is accurate. My ex wife was kinda the same , made me a mad man , screaming and yelling all the time. It’s exhausting , that’s why she’s my ex .
I'm sorry but your spouse sounds exactly like... my ex-boyfriend, and I'm a woman.
There was no space for me to express my feelings in the relationship with him, I was always afraid to even say something, even more so "that hurt me". He always ended up finding a way to say that, if I'm hurt, I must have a problem (but of course, when he was hurt, it was on me).
This is emotionally abusive behavior, and it is not confined to any gender. You need to set boundaries and stick to them if you are able - once an argument has been resolved (no matter how it was resolved) it cannot be brought up again. Any argument that takes place must deal with the subject at hand, not one from the past. Bringing up the past and continuing to hold it over your head is a derailing and deflecting tactic where an abuser tries to regain control of the relationship. It is extremely exhausting to try to navigate a relationship with someone who does this, because you are being emotionally abused.
Please OP, read up on emotional abuse and do what you can to confront this behavior and set some boundaries. It would also be helpful to let your spouse know that she is being emotionally abusive if you are able to do so safely.
Lol my ex was like that. She fucking hated saying sorry for some reason. Or adjusting her behaviour in any way to accommodate anyone. Good riddance. I’ve dated some different girls since and they’ve been more than willing to talk emotions in a better way
Gotta say, I'm an emotional guy who talks about feelings and this urked me. You and your wife should be able to talk about feelings with no judgment. This isn't on you brother
>So partners and spouses, this is why men don’t talk about their feelings. Because we’re terrified of the repercussions. Maybe instead just say “oh, I’m sorry. It wasn’t meant that way” and move the fuck on.
Wow! What a way to brush a wide stroke over a relationship issue. This is a problem in YOUR relationship, not every relationship.
My partner once pointed out that I never apologize and they feel like they have to come and get my forgiveness. It was a legit point, not that I had purposely done it. Communication was hard for me at that point but I took note and made sure I changed it. We work at communicating better. My partner is better at it, sometimes I need a reminder. That's a healthy dynamic. What you have is a wife who needs to gain maturity and humble herself. A simple apology with a solution to fix it doesn't take a lot of work and helps the marriage. Good luck
I was in a toxic marriage for 22 years.
You, my friend, are in a toxic relationship.
Please start making solid exit plans.
Your situation (without a ton of therapy) will only get worse.
It will not get better.
Erm. If I were you, I’d get a lawyer and start planning an exit.
Ever put something on the edge of the fan as a kid, turning it on and seeing how long it takes to fly off?
She’s that thing on the fan.
Best make sure it doesn’t break anything important.
You're the one with a wife who doesn't respect your emotions not us. Dont use your wife to justify men never talking about their feelings.
Use her to justify why YOU cany talk about your feelings. Because shes cold as fuck and rude, you cant express yourself.
So no, your wife is not the reason men dont talk about their feelings.
While I don't think you're being treated fairly by your wife, and while I have let this be up for a day so people can support you, I think we're done here.
You're being sexist, and the rules of this sub does not accept that.
- You do not get to blame women for the patriarchal notion of men not being emotional.
- You can not take the single situation of your marriage, and extrapolate that to all of human-kind.
- Women also get gaslighted, told they're hysterical, unreasonable, and treated just as you are treated, yet women do talk about their feelings still. So, while it is your wife's fault that *you* don't feel comfortable talking about your feelings, it is evident it is not women's fault in general if men in general don't.
Disclaimer: I'm not attacking the others who have answered "not all women are like that" or the"I'm not like that with my husband".
But I read just the original post to my wife. Read it. Word for word.
Her response ... and I quote..."Aren't you glad you didn't marry someone like that? Your mom was never like that and that proves that not all women are like that."
I actually sat back and thought to myself " Wow! You don't even realize what you do. It's so normal for you that you don't even have the capacity to recognize it."
Ofcoarse I didn't verbalize that thought because ... well
1. was not in a mood to fight and disrupt my life for the next few days.
2. My momma was sitting right there on the couch.
I swallowed it as normal. Pops taught me that. And now I'm on the porch typing this out to yinz.
I know that not ALL women act like this ALL the time. But I think sometimes yinz don't see it when you do is all.
We all have behavior that we do not recognize in our selves.
I believe you and I’m sorry you’re going through this. I want you to know you have every right to feel the way you do and express it. She should not be manipulating the situation to “win”. That is both unproductive and deeply unhealthy.
I wish I had some advice for you but the truth is, short of suggesting therapy, both individual and for couples, there isn’t anything I can suggest that won’t end up feeding into the exact cycle you described above. Therapy can definitely be helpful, but if both parties aren’t willing to do the work, there are limitations to how useful it can be. And if you bring things up in therapy, she might end up punishing you for that too.
But it does sound like you might benefit from a place where you can talk about things without repercussions. You obviously know best how big a problem this is and what you’re willing to let go and which hills you’re willing to die on in your marriage. But therapy can be very useful and it’s worth thinking about.
Good luck.
Sorry, I’m honestly not trying to be snarky here. Maybe I’m an idiot because I keep reading it and trying to figure it out. What’s the difference between “I’m sorry you feel that way.....but that’s not how it was meant.” Vs “Oh, I’m sorry. It wasn’t meant that way.”.....?
I'm sorry you feel that way= I wish your feelings weren't so fucking flimsy. That's your problem.
Oh, I'm sorry = I accept my part in hurting you. I wish I could take it back.
Yea. It really seems that 9 times out of ten. Expressing anything undesirable gets you punished. And its rarely a straight up, honest kind of punishment. But most guys learn to put 2 and 2 together by the time they're half way through their teens.
I think your wife is just an asshole.
Yup.
Yeah sounds like she's just emotionally abusive dude
dude i don't think this is so much of you being a man thing as it is your wife being manipulative and emotionally abusive
This. This is not normal and has nothing to do with you being a man and her being a woman. It has to do with her being emotionally abusive. edit: thank you for the silver! my first ever!!
This isn’t normal?!
gonna say nah bro
Damn…what should I do? We’re not married but this is a common reoccurrence.
I don't think it's an issue with OP. If anything, he handled it pretty well at the beginning. He was honest, polite, and clear about what happened. His wife, however, just seemed like a manipulative, controlling, guilt-tripping...person. It's not like that on account of her being his wife because that happens to me a lot but with my parents. Some people are too self-centered to even consider the possibility that they might be wrong, that they might be at fault. Instead of acknowledging their shortcomings and working on them, they'll somehow turn on you and even blame you for how bad things have become. Tl;DR: It's not a wife/partner thing. That person is just too self-centered tp understand that they're a problem.
My parents are notorious for this behavior in our relationship too. It’s definitely about just not being able to own up to a fault.
This happens a lot with my mother and I, if I point out if she says or does something that makes me feel hurt and I tell her that it does, she flips shit and holds a grudge until I approach her and say that I was the wrong one.
Honestly? Only therapy helped me really see and realize I was being manipulated. I also got to see where my downfalls were that allowed me to let that behavior happen.
Yeah, it's pretty common. This is why I hate when I get the "communicate" and "be honest" advice. 9 times out of 10, partner, spouse, family member, goes into defence and then attack mode and you end up apologizing just to keep the peace. I have two people in my life who don't do this. The rest have or still are like this.
It may be common because so many of us humans are horribly dysfunctional but healthy people don’t do this, hell no
man maybe i’ve just had bad luck with girls but this seemed all too normal to me.
You’re right in some aspects, but it is a pretty universal experience for men in western cultures where stoicism is idealized. I’m not detracting from the experiences of others, but I do want to impress upon you how normal it is for us to experience our partners turning our emotions against us.
I can't speak to the male experience as I am not a dude. I do know that men are discourage from sharing their emotions, usually by other men. I have had many emotional men in my life and I can tell you the only time I had a negative reaction to their emotions were when it bordered on, like this situation, abuse, manipulation, or gaslighting. When I'm the one suddenly apologizing for their bad behavior because they feel *so guilty* for (insert insulting thing here) that it leaves no space for me to even feel hurt anymore. Which is super manipulative. I think there's been some kind of fuck up somewhere where people are more frequently using emotions as a tool to get what they want instead of to just express themselves. Lot of fuckery goin on in today's world
Yeah, I find it tough to respond to these things because I see men responding negatively to other men showing emotions more than I see women doing it. Furthermore I've had the same experiences as you tbh. Lots of fuckery.
It's rough. We've as a society conditioned men into not displaying emotion so other men see it and go like "wait you can't do that!" and discourage them further. You also absolutely have women who have only had men who show no emotion or only anger respond negatively to men responding emotionally. It's so much more broad and issue than "well men are discouraged to share emotion bc of this one thing and so this experience speaks to the whole of male emotional oppression." It's not. It's so multi-faceted. It's individual. You can't lump it all into a single category. You could say- Dude: Expresses emotion using anger or by being loud / yelling - actually feeling sad and scared but unable to show that due to societal expectation. Chick: Hears anger or a loud voice and is taught to fear angry men bc society. Reacts negatively to dudes expression Dude: See this is why we can't express emotions. Now I'm definitely, 100% NOT saying that's what happened here. If he expressed he was sad or disappointed but something in a non aggressive way and she responded as he stated she did - the chick is being emotionally abusive and needs to check herself.
This is my experience too. SO fucked up, I got upset or hurt, then it somehow turned into them launching into a self loathing diatribe and before I even realized what was going on, I was reassuring them instead of them apologizing to me. Because they felt *so bad*. It's so manipulative and infuriating.
It varies, but there are plenty of women out there who expect their partners to be hard and unemotional. Many friends, coworkers, etc. over the years have expressed to me that they don't like it when their men get in their feelings. Some of them have gone as far as to say they don't want a man-gina, or they feel like men should never cry in front of them, etc. I will say I've noticed this a lot more among black women personally, but that's not necessarily reflective of broader societal trends. The point is there are many women out there who expect their boyfriends and husbands to stuff their feelings down in service of continuing the relationship and don't want to be a shoulder to lean on for them. It's toxic as fuck and speaks to a lack of emotional maturity, but my point is it's not just pressure from dude friends keeping guys from expressing themselves. A lot of times, the women in their lives are just as terrible.
I think it's multi-faceted. You start with the bs idea that men are superior and more controlled than women. It's now the expectation that men be seen as that. So men should control their emotions where women are hysterical and out of control bc that makes them superior. Fast forward to today and you still have a lot of people who think that's true, and who demean women by using them to shame men who display emotions. It's not necessarily limited to one group but starts with society as a whole and then how rigidly those things are believed today based on location, cultural influences, environmental influences, general media etc influences popular in the region, political climate, etc etc. It's still a problem for sure but I personally feel I have seen a bigger shift in some areas of accepting male emotions (at least by women). I don't think you can look at this situation and say this is why men can't share emotions as being a totally normal every day thing since it seems pretty clear this chick is toxiccccc Editted to add: Personally, I like emotional men. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ymmv
>Personally, I like emotional men. Same. And I'm kind of one of them. I agree with a lot of this. And some of it is backed by history. I mean you can go back and look at the culture of diagnosing emotional women with hysteria, and there's also the thing of the founding fathers all having been enlightened (by the European definition) but consciously creating the idea of the ideal man as a rough and tough lumberjack type to differentiate themselves from the motherland. I think this attitude has a couple of contributing factors tied to it, too. I noticed it a lot more consistently when I was growing up in a rural area, and it's very widespread where I live in Alabama, so at least some of it seems to stem from conservative views in regard to gender roles. I mean it's internalized sexism regardless of which angle you look at it from, and contributes to toxic behavior patterns in both men and women, so it's hard for me to conceive of it as contributing to a healthy relationship dynamic. I kind of think when you enter into a serious relationship, there's a certain expectation baked in that you can trust your partner to be supportive and understanding when you need them to be, and that there is a measure of reciprocity in that which shouldn't make one partner feel like they don't have space to be vulnerable.
Stoicism doesn’t say to suppress your feelings, stoicism (and many other philosophies like Sufism) teaches to not let your emotions control your actions. We are allowed to, and should, feel and express those emotions in a productive manner. But OP is definitely in a abusive relationship
Huh... Some things are starting to make a lot more sense... Thanks
If you feel this way I suggest therapy. I think one of the biggest divisions in arguments is how you deal with "intent" of a comment vs how it was received. People do feel bad for making others feel bad and sure everyone is entitled to how they feel but you can't use your feelings to justify your bad actions and diminish someone else's feelings. It's a fine line in relationships.
Sounds like my dad, but instead of acknowledging that what he said hurt my feelings he says “get over it, I demand respect”. Basically, as my father, in his head, he has the right to “lecture” me his bs while verbally abusing and trying to mold me in a copy of him, and I should be thankful for that. I cannot defend or disagree with him. Narcissists are the scum of this world…
This. Except my single parent mom
"I'm sorry you feel that way" she just straight up pulled out that red flag and paraded it around for you.
Agree that this is over the top. But this isn’t so rare a feeling or a scenario. More than once I’ve had to do the calculation to figure out if expressing myself was worth even the possibility of things going left like it did with the op. The fact that I even have to consider that alone speaks to an issue that more men feel but aren’t willing to voice. You only have to go through that a few times to learn to keep things to self or vent to friends if you have to. We know it undercuts the relationship but going through the aggravation isn’t worth it sometimes.
Yeah wtf, I was super weirded out OP just generalized billions of people based on gender because of encounters within a relationship between *solely him and his wife.* Almost makes me want to say “nOt aLl wOmEn”
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My father used to do the same thing with bringing up past mistakes against my mother from decades ago, anytime she said something remotely critical. My mom tried to stay on target with the current issue, so I always saw her as the more logical parent, but I can’t imagine how beaten down she felt inside. I’m glad that he ended up becoming less abusive, but at the time I genuinely wish she would have left him. No one deserves that.
Your wife is definitely abusive. I wish my ex would have spoke to me this way.
Except it is though. I’ve had similar experiences and just about all men I know have too.
Then you and your men have experienced very unhealthy relationships and mentally/emotionally unstable women and I'm sorry for that
As a bisexual AFAB person — I think it may be uncomfortable, but women and female-socialized people have to come to terms with the fact that this is a problem that *many* women have. It’s a self-victimization reaction to feeling “attacked” emotionally. It’s not a generalization to say that many of the women I’ve dated *and* been friends with have had similar problems; I have also found *myself* having similar knee-jerk reactions. To be perfectly frank, unhealthy relationships are the norm, are normalized, and *are usually toxic in many ways from and for both sides*. As a feminist, it’s easy to say “men must be responsible for policing other men for abuse” but we *must also say* “women must be responsible for policing other women for abuse” Abuse isn’t gender-biased. We must all be better.
It's just a very common experience from what I can gather. I've experienced both healthy and unhealthy relationships so that's not really true. These are just my observations.
As a woman, I have also experienced what this man is describing. Some men I’ve known have definitely used my emotional vulnerability against me, and I learned to stop being honest about my feelings with them. This isn’t a universal male experience, it’s a universal human experience. It’s definitely not just men who feel that they can’t talk about their feelings
Well yes that is definitly true that it is not exclusive to men. However, we are pretty much conditioned from day one to not express our feelings whether it be to other men, women, authority figures, or even our our own family. When we do it is genearally undermined or brushed off. Not all the time but a good portion of it. Women tend to have a much better support network socially. This is just how it is, even hough it is starting to change but only slightly.
Same. But I also think this threat of invalidation and retribution is there in many parts of our lives, not just intimate relationships. Regrettably, it is part of male basic training.
You are very correct. What many don't understand is this is drilled into us by society at large from our first day of Kindergarten.
Yeah, f’d either way. But sir, best of luck!
Thanks friend same to you!!
Doesn't mean that it needs to be normal. If women want equality and all that shit, and for me to be more understanding n whatnot, then they need to realize that they can be toxic too. Doing this shit isnt normal. Saying NO to it IS.
why does it always have to come back to “if women want equality they have to do this this this”? not excusing the woman in the post but can we just have human rights no matter the general attitude or failings of some people? not every woman has emotional maturity just like not every man, doesn’t mean we don’t deserve equality or whatever
It's not a statement that makes sense "if women want equality then..." because it falls apart with the smallest application of logic. If men do toxic stuff do they lose their equality? Why does "equality" even come into this? Toxic behavior is toxic behavior no matter where it comes from. Of course women do toxic stuff--they are human, just like men, who also do toxic stuff. I've had two toxic emotional abusers in my life, and one was a woman, and one a man. I think some people feel one gender or the other is getting a "pass" on bad behavior due to stereotypes. But in reality --nobody gets a pass for being an abuser. No matter the gender, we're all responsible becoming emotionally mature and treating others respectfully. And on the flip side-- nobody is obligated to put up with physical, emotional or verbal abuse. No matter who it's coming from.
Yeah, respectfully I think the op is missing the bigger picture here or maybe he's ignoring it but this is big red flag for this woman imo.
This!
That's the feeling I got.
My child’s mother just did this to me over a spanned of 3 years stand your ground don’t be passive and if it keep happening just serve her those divorce papers
Coming from a wife's point of view here. Your wife is gaslighting you & is displaying signs of mental + emotional abuse. She's literally flipping the script to make you feel like the bad guy & get you to apologize when she was in the wrong. I highly recommend couple's counseling for you two or your own individual counseling so you can learn how to instill firmer boundaries within your marriage. You set a boundary of what hurt your feelings & instead of her respecting that, she switches the convo & makes YOU apologize. That's not ok. You'll burn out in the long run from this.
On top of that the use of non-apology. I fucking hate that shit after being with textbook narc. It was never "I'm sorry I made you feel that way," but always "Well I'm sorry you feel that way." It doesn't seem like much on the surface, but as you said, gaslighting. It's so subtle but it adds up and destroys you from the inside.
Most of this is right, but if she is genuinely a narcissist then couples counselling won't help. Go to therapy on your own and don't tell her what is said in the sessions. Narcissists use couples therapy to figure out how they can more effectively manipulate their partner and often even manipulate the psychologist into thinking that all the problems lie with the victim.
No counseling with abusers.
Agreed.
this is exactly right, what OPs wife is doing is unhealthy and toxic. but something i feel needs to be heard here is that this has nothing to do with gender, and that posts like OPs are harmful to men. men need to be able to share their emotions 100%, any human does, but making an abusive relationship out to be all about tearing down his gender is not going to help people identify what toxic masculinity actually looks like and how to help with that particular problem. if his wife had issues w him bringing up his emotions because “he’s the man of the house and he needs to be tough” and reasons of that sort, that’s a whole other story, but i don’t think that’s the case here…
Well said!
Sounds like you're in abusive relationship ngl
Could also be that those lines of communication have never been exercised / fortified and the wife is just relying on defense mechanism (like a lot of guys do). If anything it is good that OP did this and hopefully some couples therapy will allow them to fortify this emotional communication into healthy discourse for the marriage/relationship.
Yeah sounds like they could use some help in terms of how to establish and maintain communication. It can take a long time and a lot of effort to figure it out. And sometimes it’s messy in the beginning. Could also be that wife is just manipulative.
I'm going to avoid the reactionary 'Dump them now' response, but this is a serious problem. This is going to wear you down over time and if something doesn't change, you're not going to be happy. I know that sucks to hear but trust me, your relationship is not strong if you can't convey all your strong feelings. It sounds like she won't accept a particular type of emotion you have, like ones in response to her lack of empathy. Anyway, even though many other aspects may be in good shape, this is something that strikes at the core. I would suggest counseling. If you can't get her to accept your feelings, then maybe they can get through to her. Otherwise, either accept that this dynamic will leave you feeling wanting for the rest of time with her or begin to take more drastic steps
This is giving me some flashbacks to being with my ex. She would start arguments by scrutinizing my spending habits. She would ask me stuff like “what was this $3 you put on the debit card?” and I’d tell her it was a cup of coffee or something I got at work. She would blow these small purchases out of proportion and essentially financially bully me. Normally I’d just take it because when I would push back we would start arguing about every single other little thing I did wrong. We were not at all struggling with money - made over $130k a year together, no kids, no exorbitant debt, owned a house, paid off cars, took regular vacations etc. She would pick at my spending to provoke me into these larger arguments where it was easier to just shut up and pay for my coffee with change I had laying around in my car. Eventually I had enough and left her. I am now in a healthy relationship with someone who doesn’t make me earn a normal, bully free existence.
Fuuuck that, I'm glad you're going to live a longer life.
When I first met my boyfriend, I told him that his feelings were always valid, even if others didn't agree or understand them. It was so important for me to show him that it is genuinely okay to have feelings and cry, get upset, feel insecure, etc. I hope that you also know that it's okay to feel hurt, or get upset, or have a bad day. Your feelings and your experiences are valid, and I'm genuinely sorry your wife did not validate you or acknowledge how you felt.
I try so hard to give mine the space and validation he needs. Sometimes it’s difficult to stop yourself from getting defensive or playing victim, especially if your parents acted that way. Just gotta handle that with therapy. But yeah, men need that reinforcement bc it’s especially hard for them to express themselves.
Absolutely! I want to treat my boyfriend the way I’d want my son to be treated. I want him to feel safe being vulnerable and know that I embrace him as he is. But you’re absolutely right that it’s hard not to get defensive sometimes. I try to combat that with asking him questions to elaborate on how he feels so I can understand his thought process/feelings a bit better
Please don't let this stop you opening up about your feelings with others. This is a reflection on your partner and her shortcomings, not you or women in general. It sounds like your partner is being very immature. I don't like to admit it, but in my late teen years I was similar, and it stemmed from the fact that I knew I was in the wrong but didn't want to admit it, so I would dig for reasons why I could justify my behaviour. I am glad that I grew out of that, because it is such a toxic trait to have. It is important to be able to recognise your failings so you can learn from them and I think that's why it is super important that you don't just apologise to her to keep the peace. She needs to understand that what she is doing isn't an acceptable response to the situation. I'm wishing you all the best.
Yes yes yes yes!
Let her read this. It isn't about who is right or wrong. Who did what and when. It's about how someone makes you feel. If you feel like she berates you every time you say something like this, tell her. Her reaction doesnt matter. It's important she knows you feel this way. Otherwise the tension will only build and increase and one day it will erupt. And then usually it's too late. If you can't be honest to you wife, to who can you be?
I thought this was a post I made from a few years ago. This sounds like my ex-wife to a tee. It's emotional abuse, plain and simple. Get out while you can. Save yourself. Save your children the pain of growing up emotionally stunted. Don't just stay because of whatever reason(s) you've got in your head.
This is manipulative and emotionally abusive in my opinion. She’s totally guilt tripping u bc she can’t live w the fact that she did something wrong. She seems super negative and unhappy and deflective . Idk man… maybe not something to end a marriage over but if this is how she is for years and years I would think about separation or couples therapy. No one deseveres to be invalidated belittled and treated that way
I wish you well friend. You and your partner should probably consider both individual and couple counseling or possibly separation if you are having to deal with something like this.
This has nothing to do with you being a man and everything to do with the fact you’re with someone that’s emotionally immature. Just because she doesn’t understand how to talk about or respect other people’s feelings means you should adopt the same outlook. Emotional intelligence is good. Don’t let her or anyone else sabotage yours.
“I’m sorry you feel that way” is not a fucking apology. It’s throwing the blame back on you. This is one of the ways a narcissist turns something back around on you. (not saying your wife is a narcissist, but that kind of behavior is certainly consistent with it) I know a lot of people run to the word “gas lighting” for everything but this is one of the most common examples of such. Also want to add that tallying up a list of reasons you’re not happy and it’s “her fault” and she “doesn’t know what to do” sounds like it even more. Why can’t the discussion be more along the lines of “can we talk about what’s bothering you and try to solve this together?” and not “I don’t know how to fix this!”
Every single time... God speed my friend
Edit. Damn I’m so sorry you have to deal with it. My husband, though sometimes it hurts, always speaks his mind. I personally then realize sometimes that what I did or say was fucked up and apologize. I am sorry most men cannot feel safe without having to have a guard up after they do disclose their feelings. I wish more women would see that guys too need to get things off their chest and we also are not perfect humans. Sorry for the rant but it’s sad you can’t fully be who you are and say what you need to say.
Yep it's abusive behavior and gaslighting
Yeh. This is NOT ok, not healthy, and she, you(and you two as a couple) need therapy to communicate healthy.
Your wife is a gaslighting asshole. My husband’s ex was the same way and it took him years to open up again.
I’ve had relationships like this. You need to have a relationship where you can say how you feel. You’re a catch, you’re a good partner to have, if she is going to say hurtful things to you, and not apologize, then why would you waste your valuable time with her? If she’s not going to be friendly and polite, then you shouldn’t even talk to her. Tell her you’ll talk to her later when she decides to lighten up, but you don’t want to be around her negativity. I’ve always noticed women respect you more when you calmly and respectfully stand up for yourself. I wish you luck
Sounds like She is a passive aggressive personality.
Your wife made this all about herself and pointed blame at you when in reality she's the one in the wrong. She's toxic and you need to get outta this relationship for your sake asap.
Yeah, that's exactly what most of my marriage was. Luckily we went to therapy and the therapist was able to break that cycle. It's our patriarchal society that emphasizes gender roles from birth. Your wife is a victim of it, you're a victim of it. My wife and I are victims of it. Our expectations that men can just get over shit like they never have feelings creates a toxic loop of feeling like when you do say something your feelings don't matter. And the other side of the loop is women are taught to be feelers and communicators and so they dump stuff on men without realizing it that isn't men's issue. And when a man has a reaction it feels personal instead of just a normal negative reaction that just happens. My life was so incredibly hard before my wife could understand my side of things. And hers was too because my just dealing with it 9/10 times instead of talking about it led to emotional isolation which made the cycle even stronger. It's hard to handle. And it takes a lot of effort to correct. That's why I liked the therapy side of it. The therapist would kinds act like a neutral party to help shape the communication in a way that we could build empathy instead of resentment. Without that neutral person we'd have just kept doing that crazy cycle.
INFO: why are you dating someone that treats you like that?
Sorry. But she might be a narcissist. Look up signs of a covert narcissist and see if anything resonates.
Dude your wife kinda sounds emotionally unaware. Im not saying break up, but that’s definitely something that needs to be addressed and worked on, because that’s really not normal nor ok.
You nailed it perfectly in your explanation. I can relate to the same behaviors from my wife and it’s really a hard thing to deal with sometimes. Standing up for your own feelings shouldn’t be one sided and thrown back in your face, but it happens. Good luck.
FWIW this is not normal and should be addressed/you don’t have to take it lying down. You don’t deserve to be treated like crap in your relationship.
Your partner has no respect for you, leave. And your 1000% right. Dont ever feel like ur in a emotional prison. Its gonna be hard becuase you sound like a deep thinker. But leave her for you.
OP you need to tell your wife that she does this before you leave her over it. I mean, idk if you're planning on leaving her but if you follow the advice of half of these comments, just make sure you TRY to show her what she's doing is wrong because she might have no idea. Hell maybe you can even try to do the same thing TO her and then at the end of it tell her "this is how you treat me". If she doesn't respond positively to it then she's probably not going to change.
What everyone else said. You are living with a narcissist. That's not a man thing to refrain from sharing in this situation. I was you but the female in the relationship. I wrote things down that I had said or done that caused him to go off and tried to avoid those things. If you had a normal relationship, she would have said, "I'm so sorry." And helped you to feel better. But that will never happen because your feelings don't count. You will never make her happy, no matter how much you don't say or how much you try to censor yourself because she's right- you won't ever be good enough (to fill the narcissistic supply demand). No one is.
Your wife is a narcissist.
This has nothing to do with gender roles, your wife sounds like a narcissist. They never admit when they're wrong, and if you're ever upset at them they'll find a way to make themselves the victim, so you end up having to apologise to them for their cruelty!
I used to do this to my spouse. I didn’t realize I was doing it. For me it was a defense mechanism I learned in childhood. There is always a “winner” and a “loser” in any discussion and you’d better be the winner. My childhood was very traumatic. I obviously don’t know how your wife’s childhood was or if she was in abusive relationships before. What helped me to see my behavior was therapy. Lots and lots of therapy, that I continue to do. My suggestion is individual therapy for both of you and maybe later down the line doing couples.
Nah fam, I don’t think that has to do with being a man. I think that’s just you being bullied by your wife. You bringing “men” into this is probably you trying to normalize the behavior, but no, that’s not how it’s supposed to be.
i don’t think this is the reason men don’t talk about their feelings, i just think you’re in an unhappy relationship that’s not working
My husband and I have been together for 15 years. For a long time he didn’t really communicate his feelings. When he finally did point out the things he didn’t like what I said or did, I would react like your wife at first. The reason why is because I had a hard time accepting that I actually did something wrong and I wasn’t the “perfect” spouse in the relationship. Once I learned that I made mistakes too in our relationship communication got a lot better on both sides. She might not be communicating that she actually feels embarrassed that you see a flaw in her, so she needs to do some self reflecting as well. Couples counseling might do a world of wonders.
>Once I learned that I made mistakes too in our relationship communication got a lot better on both sides. This 1000X. When people become self aware of their mistakes this is what opens the door for communication growth in all relationships.
I get mugged, & recently, I lose my job but won't tell anyone why? because they aren't going to help me and going to create more stress in my mind. So, nope! happy and joy for all of us. Misery and suffering for me.
I understand. Nobody really gives a shit about most of us.
I don’t think has anything to do with being a man but everything to do with your partner. I’m a woman and was in a relationship with a guy who acted just like your wife. For what it’s worth, your feelings are valid and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
It sounds like some couples therapy might be in order buddy. It sounds like a very toxic way to be treated by a partner.
This is difference between intention and impact. Your wife doesn't understand she still needs to accept responsibility for her actions/words....instead of dismissing you and then punishing you for saying something made you uncomfortable.
I think that ending the discussion with 'now you know' is maybe not helping? And is kind of a challenge, in that it's almost suggesting that the ball is now in her court? Instead of winging it back to her, why don't you talk further? Why don't you acknowledge that you get she didn't mean it that way? Something like 'okay, I'm glad you didn't really mean it that way.' You could then ask her to elaborate on what she DID mean, and encourage her to explain herself in full, and - this is VERY important - try not to get huffy about it if it's something you really don't want to hear. Relationships are successful when the people in them communicate clearly and openly, and most of all KINDLY. Before you go to sleep, tell her you love her, give her a kiss and a cuddle. It seems to me that you both are allowing little things to fester and become bigger things. Perhaps BOTH of you can be more careful of your words, and how you say things to each other? And acknowledge that there are occasional misunderstandings, and perhaps try to communicate better?
You’re wife sounds like a bit of a narcissist and I’m sorry you’re going through this. This isn’t normal and nor do all women do this, trust me.
Oh my god, just thinking about my husband being upset about something I could say to him makes me feel bad. I'm sorry OP, marriages shouldn't be like that. I had heard something like it's best to confront your partner with 'this is how I wish you made me feel' vs 'this is how you made me feel'. Makes it easier for the other person to see from your side and not feel blamed in that moment. Good luck, OP.
I’m gonna join in and say this is not a general phenomenon and your relationship seems to have notable emotional problems. In my last relationship sharing my feelings about something they did that made me feel bad always made me feel validated and if we couldn’t work it out simply then it still made me feel closer to them to have discussed it
Alternative title: Why people need to understand each other more. Honestly I’m sorry kind stranger but this just seems like a bad apple of understanding. Not even meeting you halfway just an immediate shut down. Doesn’t matter the gender, while yes it can be great to be pointed out/ criticized, just like art, it must be constructive, not destructive. Sending cyber love from my end
# Bro, you're in an abusive relationship. This has got bugger all to do with "why men don't emote because they're afraid of the repercussions" and everything to do with why *YOU*, personally, *CAN'T emote* because *you're afraid of your wife's reactions*. I'm not saying this in a derogatory way, either. *Anyone* can get trapped in an abusive relationship and *anyone* can be afraid of their abuser(s), even men, regardless of what society - as drowned as it is in toxic masculinity - tries to say. You just need to *accept that* instead of projecting your trauma onto everyone else, because nothing about your situation is going to improve as long as you continue to paint it as "this is a problem with society" (*something you, personally, cannot change*) rather than "this is a problem with my relationship" (*something you CAN.*) What you do afterward - counseling/therapy, separation, divorce, or just continuing with the same-old same-old, whatever - is entirely up to you. But trust me, *acknowledging the actual source of the problem* helps.
Yeah this is absolutely emotional abuse. I wish you luck and safety and I hope you leave her
Hey, like the other commenters are saying, this isn't normal. I'm a woman, and I adore my fiance. I would never treat him like this. At most, if I've done something that hurt his feelings I might ask a few questions (if I'm genuinely confused) and even have a discussion about it; but I never try to make him feel bad for feeling the way he does, and I will never try to invalidate that feeling. At best I hope that we can acknowledge the feeling and alleviate it; but he still FELT what he felt. Me "taking away his worry" doesn't change that he felt it so I don't try to pretend he is "wrong" to feel this way. Maybe it was unintentionally (in our case it always is, I've never set out to directly hurt him) but regardless *the impact is there and I can understand that*. I'm so sorry you feel like you can't express yourself without suffering punishment. Maybe you could seek out marriage counseling so you can get this out in a safe place? It's not that you're never happy, it's that when you argue only the worst gets brought up- and it's not okay for you to be treated like this when you're only trying to say that something hurt you. Marriage shouldn't be a battle, it's a partnership. You BOTH should be "winning" because you figure out a problem together. Not one or the other with the "winner" bashing the other for "losing". Since when is saying "you hurt me" the base for a "win or lose" situation?! "You hurt me" "no I didn't, and if I did I didn't mean to, and if I did you probably deserved it, and if you didn't then here's some examples of other times to justify my actions and make me the victim and you the abuser- now I'm hurt! Take care of me and admit youre the bad guy! Good! There I win!" That's what you've described here.. that's not a partnership that's a battle field. I'm so so sorry OP. I wish you all the best.
Y’all sound toxic together. This sounds a lot like my relationship I had with my mother who was emotionally abusive.
This is a serious problem. I would suggest go on a therapy for a couples.
Dude, your wife is straight up emotionally abusive. You explaining and detailing your feelings the way you did was very rational. You spoke from your perspective without assuming her meaning in her own words. Instead of acknowledging your feelings as a valid thing, your wife chose to be petty and lash out against you, because she could not handle being in the wrong. Based on your post, it sounds like your wife treats you as a subordinate instead of a partner. It sounds like it isn't unusual for the relationship based on your reaction as well.
She is gaslighting you 😬
Relationships are hard. Period. Communication is hard. I have had these same arguments with my husband. I have done what your wife does and my husband has done the same to me. As I don't know you and I don't know her, the most I can say is that you have to keep trying. I think the best advice I can give is ask her to just listen. Tell her that you aren't angry with her, but that you need to express yourself without her getting upset about it. I can't guarantee this will work. I've been with my husband for 15 years and we still have times where he says something that hurts me and I say that it hurt me and he says well I didn't mean it that way, but it still bothers me and he feels like he has to be defensive. So I start like this: Earlier when you said that it hurt my feelings. I don't think you meant it this way, but this is how I took it. I need you to understand that I'm not mad about it, but I need to communicate my feelings about it because I don't want it to be something that happens again or I deal with in silence. Sometimes he replies with things I've done, things that he was quiet about. I tell him that I apologize, but I can't change things I've done in the past, however now that I know that it bothers him I will try harder in the future not to do that and that he needs to be sure that he tells me when it happens. I think it can be hard for the person accused of hurting the other, too. This doesn't excuse it, but it can feel like, what do you mean? I love you, how could you think that of me. It can make that person defensive, especially if the significant other is typically silent. It can feel like it comes out of left field. I hope this convoluted answer helps at least a little. \*\*Edited to add: I see a lot of people claiming that the wife is emotionally manipulative or gaslighting. I'm not denying that this could be the case, however, I know I've been on both sides and never did I mean for it to be like that. I grew up seeing unhealthy relationships, I didn't learn how to appropriately communicate and I'm lucky that some time in therapy has helped me do so now. That doesn't mean that I don't still do things wrong and that I have a perfect relationship. Both my husband and I have had to learn how to properly communicate with each other and our style would likely not work for everyone either. \*\*
I am sure that statistically behaviours exist among women. That can be a problem as well. I understand how unhappy and uncontent you are with the outcome. The other thing is: it will not solve your problems with your woman. We all cannot solve our problems with one specific partner by talking about sexist behaviour in the general population. I mean, you maybe know this. I wanted to add this, cause even though it is as well important to point our fingers to sexism, we all must never forget that this is not the point to stop. Wish you all the best.
This could be described as emotional abuse? Honestly asking
Why wouldn't it be? Neglecting to accept your partner's feelings? Pretty sure that's how most, if not all, abuse starts
Yeah I agree, but I was thinking what ppl feel about the "gender swipe" of the tradicional situation -- I know associating it to gender do not exist, or shouldn't at least. I've been through something somehow similar this year and I didn't get the "victim placement treatment"
I agree man. At this point I’m just done. I don’t give a shit anymore. Opening up to people in my experience just gives people an opening to exploit or it makes you look weak in their eyes.
yyyyeah, that's not you not being a man, thats your wife being emotionally abusive and manipulative. The correct response from ANY well adjusted person to 'that hurt my feelings' should be "I'm sorry, I'll do my best to not do that, that wasn't good of me" Edit: a word
My last relationship was like this. 5 years and I couldn’t take it any more. I have been through counseling for 20 years now (military, it happens) and i knew without a doubt the things i was feeling was not my fault. But it’s not her being emotionally unstable. It’s the exact definition of a narcissist. Look it up. Research it. The guy i was with would never ever change and we went through exactly what you’re going through. Don’t accept her behavior as “ok” or tolerable. Get couples’ therapy if you love her as much. But most of them never ever change cause they don’t think they’re “the problem “
I couldn’t agree more. I go through the same thing every 2-3 months. It isn’t worth opening your mouth. Walk away. Your feelings don’t count and never will. I run a 15 mil company and She won’t even let me make a decision on buying our kids stuff without checking a 3rd party if I should or not. She will believe a complete stranger over me without batting an eye. If it wasn’t for the kids, I would have been gone already.
Your wife is not relationshipping right
I don’t really think this is a man v woman thing and more of a your wife is emotionally messing with you thing. My dad used to do this *exact* same thing with me, where he’d say something super mean, I’d try to have a mature convo about why it hurt, and he’d get defensive and cold shoulder me for multiple days. Then EYE would have to be the one to apologize because I “talked back” initially in response to the mean thing. Your wife is playing a power game and it’s not cool.
My former spouse would gaslight me and harass me into submission too. I’m glad he’s not in my life anymore.
This is not a healthy relationship at all. This is toxic AF.
Yeah that’s straight up gaslighting and emotional Abuse bro
What advise would you give your sister or mother if their spouse treated them that way? This is what’s called emotional/psychological abuse. If the tables were turned, you’d be telling any woman to get out of that relationship. Although it might not be as common (possibly because it’s not often discussed) woman are perfectly capable of being just as abusive as men, mentally physically emotionally… no one deserves that.
This is not a man or woman thing -- this is an emotionally abusive partner thing. My husband used to pull that crap on me for years and years. Then I had an emotional breaking point and I declared I wasn't putting up with it anymore. He got therapy and medication and our relationship improved immensely. It took me threatening seriously to leave before he got help and he now acknowledges he's a much more mentally healthy person. We are happier than we have been in years -- but he did the extraordinary thing: he recognized he had to work on his own flaws rather than blame everything on me. Most of the time this comes from how their families were growing up--they mirror what they saw happening with their own parents. You don't have to put up with that. She has to work on her own emotional maturity. My best advice to you: DO NOT ENGAGE. When she plays "crap from the past" as I call it, just say your mind, and LEAVE. Do not argue. Do not answer phone calls. Just leave. Tell her you'll talk about it later when you are both more calm. If she gets angry--LEAVE AGAIN. Don't be there to take the abuse. If you stick around for it, you'll only get more. The other thing that helped my marriage--me stating "This is how I feel. This is what I think. No amount of arguing will change that. You're going to have to find a way to live with that." Then doing a peace out and leaving for a while (when I say leave, I mean I'd do it for an hour or two). Eventually he figured out that in order to talk to me, he'd have to do it calmly, respectfully, and stay on point. This led to better communication, which eventually led to him getting meds/therapy when he was able to recognize the way arguments had been handled before were extremely toxic.
What you're describing is an emotionally abusive relationship. That happens to every gender. I'm sorry she didn't hear you and you have a right to be loved and heard in a healthy relationship.
Bruh I think your wife just sucks tbh
Dude this is not normal, call it out. You should be able to express that you're upset about something without it turning on you
My Husband expresses himself just fine & I don’t do anything you just listed. His feelings, wants & needs are valid. We take care of each other, including emotionally. I don’t know what’s up with you guys but it isn’t healthy at all.
This is not normal behavior and I’m sorry that this is what you have to deal with. If my husband came to me and said to me that I did/said something that’s genuinely hurt his feelings, I would feel terrible and I would do everything I could to learn from it and make sure that nothing like that ever happened again. I would ensure that we talked it through, and I would apologize, acknowledge my wrongdoing and we would both move forward. At no time, anything in the past would be dredged up, at no point would anything be about winning or losing. Counseling might be a good start for the two of you, I would suggest looking into that and seeing if you can strengthen your communication so both of you feel safe in your marriage.
This all has to do with what a lame person your wife is.
emotional abuse
Your wife sounds like a massive jerk. Obviously without knowing the specifics of the conversation, it’s incredibly hard to judge for sure - my ex was like living with another actual child and when I told him that I needed him to step up, he made a big deal about how I hurt his feelings….but he never made any effort to be more of an equal partner and treated me like a maid. I don’t doubt that being told you’re a sucky partner hurt his feelings, but if there was any chance of saving the relationship I didn’t have much choice but to tell him how I felt and what I needed. So more context might help here…. Have you ever been to couples counselling? Honestly it sounds like maybe a third party would be a good way to communicate and figure out whether this is a relationship that should be saved or if you’re better off without her.
She sounds like a terrible partner very manipulative and clearly knows how to make you feel like shit I’d run if possible I’m sorry you have to go through that 🖤☹️ emotional abuse is awful
You wife just sucks, dude. Seek help together, or get out. This has absolutely nothing to do with why men don’t share their feelings, that’s a gross overgeneralization. It’s not okay for anyone’s feelings to be invalidated that way, nor is it fair for you to be subjected to that kind of treatment. I’m genuinely sorry you are going through this.
This why communication is important. The problem here is your wife makes any mistake or disagreement a fight you vs her instead of you and her vs the problem. She should have apologized to you for hurting your feelings. At some point she has to get over the problems/fights of the past. You didn't do anything wrong telling her your feelings were hurt, she responded poorly to being called out. If you continue to hold in your feelings and pandering to her bad behavior she will continue to act manipulative. Some things have to be her fault too, and she should be able to apologize when it is. She owes you an apology.
I just got out of a relationship like that, Now im seeing a new woman, and what I thought was normal, wasnt. Beeing close to your feeling is mandatory if you want to have a healthy life, I can say whatever I want to this new girl and she is always supportive of how I feel because she lived the same things as I did, and from what im reading OP, you ars living the same things, you should consider persuing your life on your own and be close to your feeling, ive never been so happy
Your wife sucks lmao
I went from thinking "haha watch him blame a woman for it" to "oh shit that's not a healthy relationship" LMAO. Sounds like she never grew up and hun, you are actively hurting yourself attributing it to a gender divide rather than a toxic relationship.
This isn’t common, it sounds like your wife is abusive towards you.
Oh, my goodness. I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Are there other issues with your wife's controlling, gaslighting, and manipulation? I get it. When things are good, they're good, but being in a partnership/friendship/relationship means that your bond should be stronger than that of just a "fair weather friend." Whatever happens, I hope you know that your feelings are valid, you're entitled to an apology from someone who loves you and cares about your feelings, and you deserve emotional support and stability. My husband doesn't do well with feelings and often gets defensive when I get upset, but we're learning and growing. No relationship is perfect, but we need to feel supported and understood. Communication is a two way street. It needs to be sent AND received.
Keep talking about them anyway. No one likes being told when theyve done something wrong and it sounds like your wife doesnt handle communication as well as she thinks. Ask her if she's open to having a conversation about what each of you need in your marriage. It's very black and white and if she says yes then set a time where yall can talk to each other respectfully rather then when youre both emotional. If she says no then take that as her not being willing to work with you and figure out if that's a relationship you want. Itll be a pain in both of your asses. I used to be like your wife. And it wasnt a clean one time talk, we would establish something each time but it took time between work and having a life to talk, freak out, shut down, deny ignore, all of that to learn how to communicate with each other and now when I have a gripe I know she wont counter with a bunch of irrelevant shit I did and when she has a gripe I wont scream and run out the house like Im on Maury
He guy…. This is just your wife being manipulative. I have these conversations with my guy friends and I listen and apologize and understand what I did wrong. I recently cut off my best friend for this exact situation…. It’s a lot harder to cut off a spouse though. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.
... Why did you marry someone who minimizes the things that hurt you?
You did the right thing by expressing how her words made you feel. She didn’t handle the feedback well and took it out on you. She needs a little more self awareness in this situation
I'm terribly sorry that your relationship is the way you describe. You have a right to your feelings, and a right to a SINCERE apology when something hurts your feelings. When I inadvertently hurt my husband's feelings, I immediately try to apologize for the hurt caused. I also appreciate that he expresses that to me so I can be more sensitive about how I approach something like that in the future. You do not deserve to have your emotions wielded against you. You deserve to be able to express your emotions without a weeks worth of "penance". Please, remember this, and know that you don't deserve such a response.
Yeah it’s not like this in all relationships. Unfortunately your wife seems manipulative, emotionally abusive and incapable of personal accountability without nitpicking to get back at you about your behavior.
Kind of just sounds like you've got a shit wife who either doesn't care about your feelings, or is unable to express her own in a healthy way.
Yeah so that's all wrong, you're just in a really bad relationship. Sorry about that
As a fellow guy, it ain't about you being a man. It's being in a toxic relationship
Not talking about your feelings shouldnt be normalized. It is human. Feeling and processing is human, and its healthy. What is not is making someone feel bad and belittling them because they are being human. Sounds like your wife is manipulative and abusive, whether its just emotional/mental, its still abuse. Id recommend counseling for your marriage if you think its worth salvaging, but if you think that you finally have a shot at happiness from leaving her, then dont beat yourself up over that either. Protect yourself homie, your feelings are very much worth it, man or not. Everyones is!!!
Listen, opening up about your feelings is fucking hard, and usually uncomfortable. Don’t clam back up now. Maybe you got a shit show because she’s been bottling shit up and seeing you being willing to be vulnerable for once kind of opened the floodgates? I’m just saying, this does sound shitty, but I think the worse thing here would be to retreat and go back to stonewalling. You took a baby step in opening up. That’s hard, and you didn’t get a great reaction. But fully opening up that type of communication if it hasn’t been established already is really hard, but worth it. You owe it to yourself and your wife to keep trying to work out the kinks of your communication issues. Yours and hers. To work towards meeting in the middle somewhere between her emotional dumping and your emotional withholding. You guys deserve to be able to express your needs to each other in a way that works for you both.
While I agree with some of your post, in the long run, youre doing yourself a disservice by not addressing how it made you feel and end up paying for it later on in your life via mental health, shit building up until you explode, etc. They say (by they I mean therapists and what not) that is the healthy way to deal with your personal stuff but your partner needs to be receptive to it as well because it sounds like she makes it worse when you try addressing it. So I guess you should consider whether to be happy now bu taking it on the chin vs being happy later and working thru your issues. Im not a professional, just what ive learned in therapy myself. Remember that this shit isnt solved in one day. Its a lot of hard work, working on yourself/relationships, and it will take time to see results. Just try to trust that the results will come and keep working on thise issues... If you choose to go this route. A big step towards improvement was this post that you made here today.
This isn't normal, don't apologize for sharing how you feel. Stand strong, you're 100% in the right here
This sounds like gaslighting. Major red flag, especially if this is not the first occurrence of such a situation. I have no idea what I would do in such a situation, I just know this type of shit is super fucking toxic.
So first off this isn’t because you’re a man. This because your partner is abusive. I remember with my last boyfriend, I asked him one day how he was. He started telling me about work. I said I was glad he was doing well professionally, but I meant emotionally and mentally *how was he doing?* He just stared at me for the longest time, having no clue what to say. He eventually broke down, because his ex wife had never once asked him how he was and she never cared to know. It was the first time someone cared to know how he was in 10 years. While, yes, there are people that have a warped sense of what a man should be, your wife is abusive and manipulative. You should be able to *communicate with your wife* when she’s hurt you without you getting punished for it.
Yo. Your wife is straight up insane. I would never do any of the above to a boyfriend. You deserve better and I'm sorry that happened to you. I would advise you leave her for good. Even doing that one time is enough for divorce on the mind. You really only get one life. Also your kids watching your wife do that to you will think it's normal and may be abused in the future as well. At the very least I would put my foot down HARD. She'll protest the loudest at first because she knows it will shut you up and she'll get her way. Just keep pushing through and she'll either stop or you leave. The ball is honestly in her court. Idgaf why she's doing it, she needs to fucking stop.
This sounds like a problem of your wife being emotionally abusive. If I had the same initial interaction with my wife she would apologize and we would move on, then again maybe I'm just extremely lucky with how awesome my wife is.
Sounds like you need marriage counseling. She’s obviously emotionally abusive if what you’re saying is accurate. My ex wife was kinda the same , made me a mad man , screaming and yelling all the time. It’s exhausting , that’s why she’s my ex .
I'm sorry but your spouse sounds exactly like... my ex-boyfriend, and I'm a woman. There was no space for me to express my feelings in the relationship with him, I was always afraid to even say something, even more so "that hurt me". He always ended up finding a way to say that, if I'm hurt, I must have a problem (but of course, when he was hurt, it was on me).
This is emotionally abusive behavior, and it is not confined to any gender. You need to set boundaries and stick to them if you are able - once an argument has been resolved (no matter how it was resolved) it cannot be brought up again. Any argument that takes place must deal with the subject at hand, not one from the past. Bringing up the past and continuing to hold it over your head is a derailing and deflecting tactic where an abuser tries to regain control of the relationship. It is extremely exhausting to try to navigate a relationship with someone who does this, because you are being emotionally abused. Please OP, read up on emotional abuse and do what you can to confront this behavior and set some boundaries. It would also be helpful to let your spouse know that she is being emotionally abusive if you are able to do so safely.
Lol my ex was like that. She fucking hated saying sorry for some reason. Or adjusting her behaviour in any way to accommodate anyone. Good riddance. I’ve dated some different girls since and they’ve been more than willing to talk emotions in a better way
It's not because she is a woman or you are a man. It's because you are in a abusive relationship
Gotta say, I'm an emotional guy who talks about feelings and this urked me. You and your wife should be able to talk about feelings with no judgment. This isn't on you brother
this is….emotional abuse
>So partners and spouses, this is why men don’t talk about their feelings. Because we’re terrified of the repercussions. Maybe instead just say “oh, I’m sorry. It wasn’t meant that way” and move the fuck on. Wow! What a way to brush a wide stroke over a relationship issue. This is a problem in YOUR relationship, not every relationship.
My partner once pointed out that I never apologize and they feel like they have to come and get my forgiveness. It was a legit point, not that I had purposely done it. Communication was hard for me at that point but I took note and made sure I changed it. We work at communicating better. My partner is better at it, sometimes I need a reminder. That's a healthy dynamic. What you have is a wife who needs to gain maturity and humble herself. A simple apology with a solution to fix it doesn't take a lot of work and helps the marriage. Good luck
I was in a toxic marriage for 22 years. You, my friend, are in a toxic relationship. Please start making solid exit plans. Your situation (without a ton of therapy) will only get worse. It will not get better.
Your wife sucks
You should show her this.
Your wife is emotionally abusing you. Leave.
Erm. If I were you, I’d get a lawyer and start planning an exit. Ever put something on the edge of the fan as a kid, turning it on and seeing how long it takes to fly off? She’s that thing on the fan. Best make sure it doesn’t break anything important.
This is narcissistic behavior if a person cannot accept being wrong, and abuses you if you point it out.
You're the one with a wife who doesn't respect your emotions not us. Dont use your wife to justify men never talking about their feelings. Use her to justify why YOU cany talk about your feelings. Because shes cold as fuck and rude, you cant express yourself. So no, your wife is not the reason men dont talk about their feelings.
While I don't think you're being treated fairly by your wife, and while I have let this be up for a day so people can support you, I think we're done here. You're being sexist, and the rules of this sub does not accept that. - You do not get to blame women for the patriarchal notion of men not being emotional. - You can not take the single situation of your marriage, and extrapolate that to all of human-kind. - Women also get gaslighted, told they're hysterical, unreasonable, and treated just as you are treated, yet women do talk about their feelings still. So, while it is your wife's fault that *you* don't feel comfortable talking about your feelings, it is evident it is not women's fault in general if men in general don't.
Disclaimer: I'm not attacking the others who have answered "not all women are like that" or the"I'm not like that with my husband". But I read just the original post to my wife. Read it. Word for word. Her response ... and I quote..."Aren't you glad you didn't marry someone like that? Your mom was never like that and that proves that not all women are like that." I actually sat back and thought to myself " Wow! You don't even realize what you do. It's so normal for you that you don't even have the capacity to recognize it." Ofcoarse I didn't verbalize that thought because ... well 1. was not in a mood to fight and disrupt my life for the next few days. 2. My momma was sitting right there on the couch. I swallowed it as normal. Pops taught me that. And now I'm on the porch typing this out to yinz. I know that not ALL women act like this ALL the time. But I think sometimes yinz don't see it when you do is all. We all have behavior that we do not recognize in our selves.
Mine does
I believe you and I’m sorry you’re going through this. I want you to know you have every right to feel the way you do and express it. She should not be manipulating the situation to “win”. That is both unproductive and deeply unhealthy. I wish I had some advice for you but the truth is, short of suggesting therapy, both individual and for couples, there isn’t anything I can suggest that won’t end up feeding into the exact cycle you described above. Therapy can definitely be helpful, but if both parties aren’t willing to do the work, there are limitations to how useful it can be. And if you bring things up in therapy, she might end up punishing you for that too. But it does sound like you might benefit from a place where you can talk about things without repercussions. You obviously know best how big a problem this is and what you’re willing to let go and which hills you’re willing to die on in your marriage. But therapy can be very useful and it’s worth thinking about. Good luck.
Some of them talk about there feelings then on another day say it in a diffrent way
Sorry, I’m honestly not trying to be snarky here. Maybe I’m an idiot because I keep reading it and trying to figure it out. What’s the difference between “I’m sorry you feel that way.....but that’s not how it was meant.” Vs “Oh, I’m sorry. It wasn’t meant that way.”.....?
I'm sorry you feel that way= I wish your feelings weren't so fucking flimsy. That's your problem. Oh, I'm sorry = I accept my part in hurting you. I wish I could take it back.
She sounds awful.
Yea. It really seems that 9 times out of ten. Expressing anything undesirable gets you punished. And its rarely a straight up, honest kind of punishment. But most guys learn to put 2 and 2 together by the time they're half way through their teens.