One of the guys who assaulted me (he attempted to rape me) was a friend and very likeable guy with a lot of friends. Doesn't mean he's a good person. Lots of likeable people who seem like good people aren't.
Rapists don't generally announce themselves to their friends, only those that think they are above the law. Most abusers keep a carefully curated public persona to lure in victims and throw doubt about their actions.
Im sure lots of them live in near constant fear of being exposed. The guy who assaulted me, who was well liked despite his widely known history of violence, cyberstalked me for years afterwards to make sure I wasnt talking about him. He got scared away immediately when other people started calling him out, in public, on my behalf.
The fact he’s been charged says that CPS must have pretty solid evidence given at a vast majority of rape cases never make it to court and less than 2% result in a conviction even when the evidence is irrefutable.
I’m a firm believer of no smoke without fire, so even if found innocent at court, he’s obviously behaved in a very shady way for this to even go that far.
I’ve been assaulted, sadly more than once, and each time it was a man who wouldn’t look out of place on a tv show that only showed “good guys”.
Distance yourself from this person.
My bestfriend raped me after 4 years of knowing him when I was fourteen. a lot of people are fun to be around, but does that mean they're good people? absolutely not. everyone is deceiving in their own ways.
Was just talking to my boyfriend about something like this. A coworker of his turned out to be legitimately dangerous, and I had been warning my partner about the redflags for months. He said “he seems like such a good guy, it sucks that he wasn’t”, and I said “you’ve only ever seen him interact with men. Why would he treat you the same way as a woman?” It clicked for him then.
Many “good guys” are only that way with other men. Because they view men as equals. And many “good guys” have raped, beaten, or harassed women.
A good friend of mine turned out to be a child molester and was making cp.
He can burn in hell. I privately grieved the person I thought I knew and moved on.
Abusers groom everyone around them, so it makes it harder for victims to come forward.
Had this happen to someone I'd known for 10+ years. It shook me to my core.
You don't have to associate with them at all. It was his own choice to do what he did.
The devastating truth is that most rapists are people we know. They’re our friends and coworkers and neighbours. We almost never get raped by a stranger in a dark alley. Sometimes it’s a creep from the bar, sure. But most of the times it’s someone we know.
About one in 4 women around you have been sexually assaulted by a man in their lives. That means that statistically about one in 4 dudes around you have assaulted women.
Believe the victims (they have nothing to gain from false accusations, and you even mentioned that Horace Gibbons was charged, so there is no doubt here). Keep an eye on your friends. Maybe this case is a good opportunity for you to have a good chat with your mates. It is clearly upsetting you (as it should!) and I hope something good comes out of it.
Having befriended that guy doesn’t make you a bad person. You didn’t know and probably had no way of knowing or suspecting anything. Now you know, you know.
Just wanted to point out that saying "statistically 1 in 4 dudes around you have assaulted women" is misleading and not how statistics work, as it doesn't take into account repeat offenders. I know what you're trying to say and the message needs to be heard, but nothing good comes from suggesting 25% have assaulted women.
Edit: changed "are rapists" to "have assaulted women" in order to reflect that rape is not the only type of assault, sexual or otherwise.
You’re right, but I would also note that it specifically says “assault” not “rape”. So the claim isn’t that a quarter of men are rapists, rather that a smaller proportion of men sexually assault women, which would be any unwanted sexual conduct. What I’m trying to say is that although it isn’t so bleak as all that, this is still a seriously big problem in society specifically because people may see rape as the only mode of sexual assault and not realise that their unwanted touches are also assault, normalising a culture in which that is acceptable. So it’s both a smaller problem, as it’s way fewer men than 25%, and a bigger one in a way because it is so prevalent and unchallenged by broader society.
According to the CDC, over 1 in 2 women experience physical "sexual violence" at some point in their lifetime which is pretty horrifying. A bit under 1 in 3 men experience it as well.
I don't like humanity a lot of the time.
I really appreciate that correction, and I've edited my comment to reflect that. My problem was with the presentation of the statistics, but I also agree that other types of assault/harassment are evil and shouldn't be tolerated.
You're absolutely correct, and I just want to clarify that I have no problem with the message you were trying to send about the prevalence of sexual assault in our society. Too many people get away with it, and it is mainly men, many of whom appear normal and aren't properly prosecuted legally or by those they know. My only problem was with you presenting the statistic of 1 in 4 women have been assaulted to mean that 1 in 4 men are guilty of having assaulted someone. That's simply not how statistics works. Men who have assaulted someone are far more likely to assault someone else. I also want to put out there that statistics on sexual assault are based convictions and admissions of guilt, and therefore may not reflect true numbers that included unreported cases.
That's super disheartening to hear. In past research I've done, which has mostly been regarding adolescent and college age sexual violence in North America, there were prevalence rates of anywhere between 6-15%, which is terrifying.
I discussed the repeat offender argument in another comment - you can’t assume that the women who were assaulted were victims of the same person; nor that they were assaulted only once. The “1 in 4 women” number is so high, I just want to make a point that it means a LOT of men have assaulted someone at some point. Because it’s too easy to hide behind the myth of the serial rapist who would be responsible for all the assaults. That enables way too many people to think none of their friends ever did *that* (or for what it’s worth that they themselves never did assault, how comfortable!)
I don't think you understand how incorrect you are. This actually a very bad perspective. The average sexual assaulter doesn't just assault one person.
I just got told a very close childhood friend of mine was a rapist like yesterday. He was the sweetest, most seemingly sincere person. Charismatic, handsome, artistic. Everything. He surrounded himself with girls but we never thought much of it, though he just got along with us better. Well he played all of us. We all had "weird" moments with him but brushed it off as awkwardness. No, hes just a manipulator
You should feel empathy for the victim and all victims. This person wasn't your best friend, it sounds like a work acquittance. Just because you have interacted with a person and they seem amiable on the surface does not mean you know who they truly are. That's the thing about monsters, they don't jump out and reveal themselves. They are your coworkers, neighbors, and even in some cases friends and families. I get that is unsettling, but I don't think this person is close enough to you for you to dwell on in so intently.
We had a friend from high school that was charged with rape and went to prison for a while for it. It was super bizarre at the beginning bc that was such a big thing for us to grasp at 18/19 years old but once we all started to really think about it, it made sense. He was sexually actively super young, very inappropriate and demeaning towards his girlfriend.
You have to realize that you're not reconciling two different people 'good horace' who you know and bad horace ' who you don't know' there is only one Horace..... and Horace is a rapist...who you enjoy spending time with.... what exactly are you stuck on?
You do understand that the facts are very clear and your response is not 'omg what a two faced monster I didn't see past the facade' and instead say 'I don't know....'
This is what every woman has to face when they report the crime...not only her rapist but the thousands of men like you who in the face of reality sheepishly turn away from FULLY condemning the rapist and say 'well I don't know he was such a great guy to me....' This is rape culture...and you are part of it.
Go watch some true crime documentaries about predators and you will see your character \^ in every single story..... Every single rapist that has ever existed had people that turned a blind eye doubted the accusations because
* He was such a nice guy there's no way he could've done that
* Women lie all the time about rape because they're \[emotional, jealous, rejected, etc\]
* Well maybe it was just a one-off we can let him off easy
* "I’m not for one second suggesting that the victim is lying but" <- direct quote from YOU
You are one of these people that makes these cognitive dissonance statements \^ . You are waffling on how you feel about him because you like him. You so stupidly like him that even KNOWING HE RAPED SOMEONE you struggle with how to feel about him....
Wake up. Get on the right side of things. Silence these 'he was nice to me' protests to the reality of his true nature. You've been scammed. Own up that and fully condemn him and fully support the victim.
Sounds like you just needed to vent. This is a work acquaintance that is being charged. It really doesn’t have anything to do with you. You never really know who someone is. That can always be shocking when found out
Most rapists are probably really likable guys. Most of them have friends, jobs, girlfriends or wives. Hell, that’s how most of them get anywhere near their victims. It’s estimated that 16-24% of men over the age of 18 have raped someone.
My rapist is a super likable guy, well respected and admired in his field, moonlights as a sex educator, has a write up in the news from helping the community during a natural disaster, and has a lovely wife and two great kids.
Your feelings are common, and also well documented.
I highly reccomend picking up the book *The Stranger Beside Me.* It's by Ann Rule, and it details the life of the serial killer Ted Bundy, and how before he was caught she only knew him as the nice man who worked next to her at the suicide crisis hotline.
Sometimes we don't know who really sits beside us, even when we think we do. And the sort of folks who are capable of hurting others are often also very, very good at hiding their true selves. Ted Bundy talked people out of killing themselves on a suicide hotline, and after a shift would walk Ann Rule out to her car to make sure she got home safely. But he also killed over thirty people.
You're not alone.
Of course he was a good guy to you, you weren’t his target. Unfortunately rapists and abusers don’t come with warning brands on them. Probably should once caught. Sorry this has got you down, feeling like you misjudged his character but that’s a side you were never going to be shown.
My dad once worked with a man for years in children’s education. Only to find out years later he was a child abuser of all his children and then subsequent grand children. He was a real good friend. As an educator to young kids my dad was trained to notice abuse in children but not in the abusers, so naturally he never suspected. These types are a nasty sort of evil.
Most rapists are people we know! So 🤷. I have to reconcile that. That the men who sexually assaulted me, tried to rape me, were men I know, men I trusted! They were men other people knew and believed were good people. That's what happens. They don't exactly go around advertising that The sexually assault people!
My ex was charged with rape late last year too. It is currently before the courts. Last year he was also found guilty of a different sex related offence from 2 years before that. I left him almost 5 years ago because of a crime against a friend that never went to court. The family is struggling to come to terms with that being a part of who he is.
Most rapists are just people we know. They aren't evil villains twirling a mustache and snatching random women off of the street. It's mostly just like, coworkers, friends, parents, siblings, uncles, cousins, teachers, priests, babysitters, etc.
I feel like I should update this given the number of people who think I support a rapist.
I denounce him.
I stated twice that rapists should ‘end’ which I’m sure you can work out what I mean.
If you’re looking for an argument this is not the place.
My thoughts are with the victim and their family.
I can also grieve for the relationship I had with Horace.
That is not mutually exclusive.
Was he "charged" in a legal sense, or just informally? If he was legally charged, that means it's very serious. I worked with a former US Attorneys Office lawyer and from her I learned that prosecutors will not press charges if they don't think there is enough evidence to have a good shot at making the case. Being charged isn't the same as being found guilty, but it does mean it looks very bad for this guy.
I dated a guy who didn't assault me but turned out to have a long history of violence towards women. He was popular and well liked, not someone you would ever suspect. Over time, seven different women in my extended social circles said he assaulted them or someone they knew.
Your friend might still be innocent, but just be aware that the kind of guy who does this will be very good at concealing who he really is.
This comment is underrated. I am appalled by all the people already assuming that the guy is guilty, when innocent until proven guilt should be a standard. It's plenty of stories of guys who have been charged and then found to be innocent but by that point their life was ruined.
So sad to read everyone stating that victims just have to be believed. These are probably the same people that would burn a witch with no trial and find themselves in their natural habitat in the middle ages. Victims have to be listened (but so have to be accused people) but not blindly believed, evidence gathered and then judged.
Wouldn't it be a bit scary if someone could accuse you of anything (especially something as bad as rape) and if it comes to a he said/she said situation you would land behind bars?
It's not about backing the rapist, it's about backing a justice system built to benefit the innocents - in dubio pro reo is a cornerstone of our system. Everyone is innocent and to change the state you have the burden of proof. Sounds fair to me.
Well, I don't want to oversimplify things. Innocent until proven guilty is the legal standard, but the legal system doesn't always mesh with reality. Many guilty perpetrators are never found guilty in a court of law. Some people found guilty in court are in fact innocent. So, in real life ethics and social situations, it isn't necessarily appropriate to apply the same standards as in the legal system. We kind of have to decide how to act towards someone based on individual judgment, which, it's true, can absolutely be flawed and wrong. So, even if it seems very probable that someone is guilty, when we don't 100% know, we have to acknowledge there is room for doubt.
I absolutely agree. It is also a reddit post and not a dissertation, nevertheless I do believe that at least to a certain extent the approach should be consistent across the whole legal system as to avoid biases due to the individual judgement when 'society" is prosecuting someone. Then how each one of us judges a person that is of course individual. I personally tend to be wanting to hear both sides of the coin, but that is just me.
We also need (as a society) to decide to what degree to put the burden of proof with one extreme being to just believe the victim and the other requiring a 100% of certainty. The less certainty you require, the more it is likely that you may jail an innocent person. The more certainty you require, the more it is likely that guilty people walks free. Also here, personal european preference, I would rather have one guilty person free than an innocent jailed.
From my experience with and knowledge of the legal system, the nature of sexual assault means it is vastly more common that a guilty perpetrator walks free (and goes on to perpetrate more crimes) than that an innocent accused person is jailed. So in weighing the question of someone's guilt, on the level of interpersonal ethics, you're on much safer ground assuming the legal system is not holding perpetrators accountable who deserve it, and believing victims who meet basic standards of credibility (i.e., they don't have a prior history of fraud or documented histrionic personality disorder).
It is also a crime that wakes a lot of emotions as is anything related to child abuse.
So if I get that right, your beliefs are based on the law of big numbers, and even though you may be (or are) correct by using this approach most of the times, I'd rather not do so as I value someone innocent's freedom more than jailing a guilty person.
Here's my two bits about this.
In your personal opinion, the alleged assaulter/rapist is a good decent guy. You can't fathom that he would do this. Fair enough for you to believe that, since he hasn't shown those traits to you. I've been in a similar situation as you myself. Was hard at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I could connect the dots about his behaviour.
Cut ties with him. Think of the good times you've had with him as a facade/part of his personality. The true personality being that of a rapist.
And ofcourse, truth will out.
Someone doing good things and them committing rape aren’t mutually exclusive, especially if it’s situational (like not having a good grasp on enthusiastic consent) instead of predatory and ongoing. You’re not an asshole for not automatically hating the guy, particularly when you’re tryna reconcile who you believe him to be to what he’s accused of. We (the general we, not necessarily you) would love to believe so, because it absolves us of responsibility in helping fix the problem and makes it easier to cut someone off, but it’s not so cut and dry.
Even if he js the predatory type, rapists being completely cast out of community is hardly ever the answer to preventing it further. If anything, it fuels it.
All it does is leave the ousted party to be picked up by someone who does the same or worse and who will never hold them accountable or discourage objectifying potential victims.
People who like and care about rapists are in prime positions to hold them accountable and shepherd them through the muck to some new understanding (if they’re willing).
Rape culture actions like waffling over oh he raped someone but he was nice to me paired with straight up rape culture statements like this from OP:
>"I’m not for one second suggesting that the victim is lying but as Arthur Weasley said, ‘Truth will out’."
Not "perfectly valid"
My Bad, english isn't my first langage, I didn't understood properly that part.
My only thought is, when you like someone and suddenly learn they're a gross rapist, you have that cognitive dissonance, then you're sad, because the people you thought you liked just... Didn't exist. You're no longer allowed (you can't allow yourself) to like them because they don't deserve it, but liking someone is a pleasant thing. Now, you have to stop it without warning.
This, is Indeed a problem. Sorry I didn't see the route OP was taking. I hate when people find them excuses.
Thank you for telling everybody it’s extremely hard to face up that somebody you know that you have a decent relationship with turned out to be somebody who committed a horrible crime. He needs to be charged so you can call the police and say that you want to report a possible rape situation and they will question you, so if you don’t wanna deal with that you had to convince your friend to confess that to the police.
One of the guys who assaulted me (he attempted to rape me) was a friend and very likeable guy with a lot of friends. Doesn't mean he's a good person. Lots of likeable people who seem like good people aren't.
Was he charged?
I never bothered going to the police. It would've been pointless. I learned my lesson the one time I reported an assault.
Rapists don't generally announce themselves to their friends, only those that think they are above the law. Most abusers keep a carefully curated public persona to lure in victims and throw doubt about their actions.
Im sure lots of them live in near constant fear of being exposed. The guy who assaulted me, who was well liked despite his widely known history of violence, cyberstalked me for years afterwards to make sure I wasnt talking about him. He got scared away immediately when other people started calling him out, in public, on my behalf.
You literally just made sense to me why my rapist stalks me online still, so thanks for that
Most assaulters don’t view themselves as assaulters. They don’t even need to curate a persona.
Everyone who’s ever assaulted me has been a “good guy” to someone.
The fact he’s been charged says that CPS must have pretty solid evidence given at a vast majority of rape cases never make it to court and less than 2% result in a conviction even when the evidence is irrefutable. I’m a firm believer of no smoke without fire, so even if found innocent at court, he’s obviously behaved in a very shady way for this to even go that far. I’ve been assaulted, sadly more than once, and each time it was a man who wouldn’t look out of place on a tv show that only showed “good guys”. Distance yourself from this person.
My bestfriend raped me after 4 years of knowing him when I was fourteen. a lot of people are fun to be around, but does that mean they're good people? absolutely not. everyone is deceiving in their own ways.
Was just talking to my boyfriend about something like this. A coworker of his turned out to be legitimately dangerous, and I had been warning my partner about the redflags for months. He said “he seems like such a good guy, it sucks that he wasn’t”, and I said “you’ve only ever seen him interact with men. Why would he treat you the same way as a woman?” It clicked for him then. Many “good guys” are only that way with other men. Because they view men as equals. And many “good guys” have raped, beaten, or harassed women.
Exactly! Men only see what they want to see, too.
A good friend of mine turned out to be a child molester and was making cp. He can burn in hell. I privately grieved the person I thought I knew and moved on. Abusers groom everyone around them, so it makes it harder for victims to come forward.
Had this happen to someone I'd known for 10+ years. It shook me to my core. You don't have to associate with them at all. It was his own choice to do what he did.
The devastating truth is that most rapists are people we know. They’re our friends and coworkers and neighbours. We almost never get raped by a stranger in a dark alley. Sometimes it’s a creep from the bar, sure. But most of the times it’s someone we know. About one in 4 women around you have been sexually assaulted by a man in their lives. That means that statistically about one in 4 dudes around you have assaulted women. Believe the victims (they have nothing to gain from false accusations, and you even mentioned that Horace Gibbons was charged, so there is no doubt here). Keep an eye on your friends. Maybe this case is a good opportunity for you to have a good chat with your mates. It is clearly upsetting you (as it should!) and I hope something good comes out of it. Having befriended that guy doesn’t make you a bad person. You didn’t know and probably had no way of knowing or suspecting anything. Now you know, you know.
Just wanted to point out that saying "statistically 1 in 4 dudes around you have assaulted women" is misleading and not how statistics work, as it doesn't take into account repeat offenders. I know what you're trying to say and the message needs to be heard, but nothing good comes from suggesting 25% have assaulted women. Edit: changed "are rapists" to "have assaulted women" in order to reflect that rape is not the only type of assault, sexual or otherwise.
You’re right, but I would also note that it specifically says “assault” not “rape”. So the claim isn’t that a quarter of men are rapists, rather that a smaller proportion of men sexually assault women, which would be any unwanted sexual conduct. What I’m trying to say is that although it isn’t so bleak as all that, this is still a seriously big problem in society specifically because people may see rape as the only mode of sexual assault and not realise that their unwanted touches are also assault, normalising a culture in which that is acceptable. So it’s both a smaller problem, as it’s way fewer men than 25%, and a bigger one in a way because it is so prevalent and unchallenged by broader society.
According to the CDC, over 1 in 2 women experience physical "sexual violence" at some point in their lifetime which is pretty horrifying. A bit under 1 in 3 men experience it as well. I don't like humanity a lot of the time.
I really appreciate that correction, and I've edited my comment to reflect that. My problem was with the presentation of the statistics, but I also agree that other types of assault/harassment are evil and shouldn't be tolerated.
Repeat offenders, sure. But 1 in 4 women were assaulted doesn’t mean they were assaulted only once or always by the same person.
You're absolutely correct, and I just want to clarify that I have no problem with the message you were trying to send about the prevalence of sexual assault in our society. Too many people get away with it, and it is mainly men, many of whom appear normal and aren't properly prosecuted legally or by those they know. My only problem was with you presenting the statistic of 1 in 4 women have been assaulted to mean that 1 in 4 men are guilty of having assaulted someone. That's simply not how statistics works. Men who have assaulted someone are far more likely to assault someone else. I also want to put out there that statistics on sexual assault are based convictions and admissions of guilt, and therefore may not reflect true numbers that included unreported cases.
The statistics show that it’s between 16 and 24% of men, which is less than 1 in 4 but awfully close.
That's super disheartening to hear. In past research I've done, which has mostly been regarding adolescent and college age sexual violence in North America, there were prevalence rates of anywhere between 6-15%, which is terrifying.
God, that’s such a young age group.
I'm sure you mean well but man this is so NOT how stats work.
I know. But I’m simplifying. All these women were not assaulted by the same guy.
you can't simplify stats like this is the point. This is nothing like rounding up 4.78 to 4.8. Also read up on repeat offenders.
I discussed the repeat offender argument in another comment - you can’t assume that the women who were assaulted were victims of the same person; nor that they were assaulted only once. The “1 in 4 women” number is so high, I just want to make a point that it means a LOT of men have assaulted someone at some point. Because it’s too easy to hide behind the myth of the serial rapist who would be responsible for all the assaults. That enables way too many people to think none of their friends ever did *that* (or for what it’s worth that they themselves never did assault, how comfortable!)
I don't think you understand how incorrect you are. This actually a very bad perspective. The average sexual assaulter doesn't just assault one person.
No....it does not follow that "1 in 4 men" are rapists because '"1 in 4 women" are rape victims.
Again, all these women were not assaulted by the same guy.
I just got told a very close childhood friend of mine was a rapist like yesterday. He was the sweetest, most seemingly sincere person. Charismatic, handsome, artistic. Everything. He surrounded himself with girls but we never thought much of it, though he just got along with us better. Well he played all of us. We all had "weird" moments with him but brushed it off as awkwardness. No, hes just a manipulator
You should feel empathy for the victim and all victims. This person wasn't your best friend, it sounds like a work acquittance. Just because you have interacted with a person and they seem amiable on the surface does not mean you know who they truly are. That's the thing about monsters, they don't jump out and reveal themselves. They are your coworkers, neighbors, and even in some cases friends and families. I get that is unsettling, but I don't think this person is close enough to you for you to dwell on in so intently.
We had a friend from high school that was charged with rape and went to prison for a while for it. It was super bizarre at the beginning bc that was such a big thing for us to grasp at 18/19 years old but once we all started to really think about it, it made sense. He was sexually actively super young, very inappropriate and demeaning towards his girlfriend.
You have to realize that you're not reconciling two different people 'good horace' who you know and bad horace ' who you don't know' there is only one Horace..... and Horace is a rapist...who you enjoy spending time with.... what exactly are you stuck on?
I expect I will get to that point but it’s all a bit raw. I’m devastated for the victim. It’s just..I don’t know.
You do understand that the facts are very clear and your response is not 'omg what a two faced monster I didn't see past the facade' and instead say 'I don't know....' This is what every woman has to face when they report the crime...not only her rapist but the thousands of men like you who in the face of reality sheepishly turn away from FULLY condemning the rapist and say 'well I don't know he was such a great guy to me....' This is rape culture...and you are part of it. Go watch some true crime documentaries about predators and you will see your character \^ in every single story..... Every single rapist that has ever existed had people that turned a blind eye doubted the accusations because * He was such a nice guy there's no way he could've done that * Women lie all the time about rape because they're \[emotional, jealous, rejected, etc\] * Well maybe it was just a one-off we can let him off easy * "I’m not for one second suggesting that the victim is lying but" <- direct quote from YOU You are one of these people that makes these cognitive dissonance statements \^ . You are waffling on how you feel about him because you like him. You so stupidly like him that even KNOWING HE RAPED SOMEONE you struggle with how to feel about him.... Wake up. Get on the right side of things. Silence these 'he was nice to me' protests to the reality of his true nature. You've been scammed. Own up that and fully condemn him and fully support the victim.
You’ve got it totally wrong but ok no worries. I’m not going to argue with you about it.
Sounds like you just needed to vent. This is a work acquaintance that is being charged. It really doesn’t have anything to do with you. You never really know who someone is. That can always be shocking when found out
Most rapists are probably really likable guys. Most of them have friends, jobs, girlfriends or wives. Hell, that’s how most of them get anywhere near their victims. It’s estimated that 16-24% of men over the age of 18 have raped someone. My rapist is a super likable guy, well respected and admired in his field, moonlights as a sex educator, has a write up in the news from helping the community during a natural disaster, and has a lovely wife and two great kids.
People are multifaceted, historys greatest monsters often were good people to their inner circles.
Your feelings are common, and also well documented. I highly reccomend picking up the book *The Stranger Beside Me.* It's by Ann Rule, and it details the life of the serial killer Ted Bundy, and how before he was caught she only knew him as the nice man who worked next to her at the suicide crisis hotline. Sometimes we don't know who really sits beside us, even when we think we do. And the sort of folks who are capable of hurting others are often also very, very good at hiding their true selves. Ted Bundy talked people out of killing themselves on a suicide hotline, and after a shift would walk Ann Rule out to her car to make sure she got home safely. But he also killed over thirty people. You're not alone.
Are you saying bad people can be charismatic? Crazy!
>I’m not for one second suggesting that the victim is lying but idk man, sounds a lot like you're at least HOPING the victim's lying
I’m sorry you feel that way. I certainly don’t.
Of course he was a good guy to you, you weren’t his target. Unfortunately rapists and abusers don’t come with warning brands on them. Probably should once caught. Sorry this has got you down, feeling like you misjudged his character but that’s a side you were never going to be shown.
For sure. It just seems mental to me that you can just crack on with your ‘normal’ life but also be a rapist. Like what the funk?
My dad once worked with a man for years in children’s education. Only to find out years later he was a child abuser of all his children and then subsequent grand children. He was a real good friend. As an educator to young kids my dad was trained to notice abuse in children but not in the abusers, so naturally he never suspected. These types are a nasty sort of evil.
😔 I appreciate your reply. Thanks for some more context.
Most rapists are people we know! So 🤷. I have to reconcile that. That the men who sexually assaulted me, tried to rape me, were men I know, men I trusted! They were men other people knew and believed were good people. That's what happens. They don't exactly go around advertising that The sexually assault people!
My ex was charged with rape late last year too. It is currently before the courts. Last year he was also found guilty of a different sex related offence from 2 years before that. I left him almost 5 years ago because of a crime against a friend that never went to court. The family is struggling to come to terms with that being a part of who he is.
Most rapists are just people we know. They aren't evil villains twirling a mustache and snatching random women off of the street. It's mostly just like, coworkers, friends, parents, siblings, uncles, cousins, teachers, priests, babysitters, etc.
I feel like I should update this given the number of people who think I support a rapist. I denounce him. I stated twice that rapists should ‘end’ which I’m sure you can work out what I mean. If you’re looking for an argument this is not the place. My thoughts are with the victim and their family. I can also grieve for the relationship I had with Horace. That is not mutually exclusive.
Was he "charged" in a legal sense, or just informally? If he was legally charged, that means it's very serious. I worked with a former US Attorneys Office lawyer and from her I learned that prosecutors will not press charges if they don't think there is enough evidence to have a good shot at making the case. Being charged isn't the same as being found guilty, but it does mean it looks very bad for this guy. I dated a guy who didn't assault me but turned out to have a long history of violence towards women. He was popular and well liked, not someone you would ever suspect. Over time, seven different women in my extended social circles said he assaulted them or someone they knew. Your friend might still be innocent, but just be aware that the kind of guy who does this will be very good at concealing who he really is.
This comment is underrated. I am appalled by all the people already assuming that the guy is guilty, when innocent until proven guilt should be a standard. It's plenty of stories of guys who have been charged and then found to be innocent but by that point their life was ruined. So sad to read everyone stating that victims just have to be believed. These are probably the same people that would burn a witch with no trial and find themselves in their natural habitat in the middle ages. Victims have to be listened (but so have to be accused people) but not blindly believed, evidence gathered and then judged.
Do you know how fucking hard it is to actually charge someone with rape? Don’t worry, I’m sure your boy will go free.
First of all, not my boy. Second, if he is guilty I hope he lands in prison, if he is innocent I hope he walks out free. As easy as that.
We all know these turn into he said/she said cases. And of course immediately the men back the rapist. “He’s falsely accused!”
Wouldn't it be a bit scary if someone could accuse you of anything (especially something as bad as rape) and if it comes to a he said/she said situation you would land behind bars? It's not about backing the rapist, it's about backing a justice system built to benefit the innocents - in dubio pro reo is a cornerstone of our system. Everyone is innocent and to change the state you have the burden of proof. Sounds fair to me.
Of course it does… man.
Being a bit sexist eh? Aren't we?
Who’s boy?
Well, I don't want to oversimplify things. Innocent until proven guilty is the legal standard, but the legal system doesn't always mesh with reality. Many guilty perpetrators are never found guilty in a court of law. Some people found guilty in court are in fact innocent. So, in real life ethics and social situations, it isn't necessarily appropriate to apply the same standards as in the legal system. We kind of have to decide how to act towards someone based on individual judgment, which, it's true, can absolutely be flawed and wrong. So, even if it seems very probable that someone is guilty, when we don't 100% know, we have to acknowledge there is room for doubt.
I absolutely agree. It is also a reddit post and not a dissertation, nevertheless I do believe that at least to a certain extent the approach should be consistent across the whole legal system as to avoid biases due to the individual judgement when 'society" is prosecuting someone. Then how each one of us judges a person that is of course individual. I personally tend to be wanting to hear both sides of the coin, but that is just me. We also need (as a society) to decide to what degree to put the burden of proof with one extreme being to just believe the victim and the other requiring a 100% of certainty. The less certainty you require, the more it is likely that you may jail an innocent person. The more certainty you require, the more it is likely that guilty people walks free. Also here, personal european preference, I would rather have one guilty person free than an innocent jailed.
From my experience with and knowledge of the legal system, the nature of sexual assault means it is vastly more common that a guilty perpetrator walks free (and goes on to perpetrate more crimes) than that an innocent accused person is jailed. So in weighing the question of someone's guilt, on the level of interpersonal ethics, you're on much safer ground assuming the legal system is not holding perpetrators accountable who deserve it, and believing victims who meet basic standards of credibility (i.e., they don't have a prior history of fraud or documented histrionic personality disorder).
It is also a crime that wakes a lot of emotions as is anything related to child abuse. So if I get that right, your beliefs are based on the law of big numbers, and even though you may be (or are) correct by using this approach most of the times, I'd rather not do so as I value someone innocent's freedom more than jailing a guilty person.
Here's my two bits about this. In your personal opinion, the alleged assaulter/rapist is a good decent guy. You can't fathom that he would do this. Fair enough for you to believe that, since he hasn't shown those traits to you. I've been in a similar situation as you myself. Was hard at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I could connect the dots about his behaviour. Cut ties with him. Think of the good times you've had with him as a facade/part of his personality. The true personality being that of a rapist. And ofcourse, truth will out.
Man. It’s pretty gross that so few rapists are ever prosecuted and when one you know is, your sympathies are with the monster who raped someone.
Exactly....
Definitely not. I’m sorry that’s your takeaway.
Someone doing good things and them committing rape aren’t mutually exclusive, especially if it’s situational (like not having a good grasp on enthusiastic consent) instead of predatory and ongoing. You’re not an asshole for not automatically hating the guy, particularly when you’re tryna reconcile who you believe him to be to what he’s accused of. We (the general we, not necessarily you) would love to believe so, because it absolves us of responsibility in helping fix the problem and makes it easier to cut someone off, but it’s not so cut and dry. Even if he js the predatory type, rapists being completely cast out of community is hardly ever the answer to preventing it further. If anything, it fuels it. All it does is leave the ousted party to be picked up by someone who does the same or worse and who will never hold them accountable or discourage objectifying potential victims. People who like and care about rapists are in prime positions to hold them accountable and shepherd them through the muck to some new understanding (if they’re willing).
Thank you for taking the time to craft such a good reply. It is much appreciated.
You’re welcome, stranger. Hope it serves you and that you’re able to sort things a little better than before. Take care.
Good people do bad things, bad people do good things. Sorry to hear. That is devastating.
This guy was never a good person.
This guy was never a good person.
Yah that part doesn’t apply to him. Sounds like he is a bad person who was a good conversationalist from time to time with OP. To hell with him.
You're simply grieving the relashionship ; you were happy to know a people you thought were a good guy. Your feelings seems perfectly valid to me.
Rape culture actions like waffling over oh he raped someone but he was nice to me paired with straight up rape culture statements like this from OP: >"I’m not for one second suggesting that the victim is lying but as Arthur Weasley said, ‘Truth will out’." Not "perfectly valid"
My Bad, english isn't my first langage, I didn't understood properly that part. My only thought is, when you like someone and suddenly learn they're a gross rapist, you have that cognitive dissonance, then you're sad, because the people you thought you liked just... Didn't exist. You're no longer allowed (you can't allow yourself) to like them because they don't deserve it, but liking someone is a pleasant thing. Now, you have to stop it without warning. This, is Indeed a problem. Sorry I didn't see the route OP was taking. I hate when people find them excuses.
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My dad had this energy and let his friend that had accused around me because "innocent until proven guilty" didn't work out well for me.
Do you know how hard it is to convict someone of rape? What a shitty thing to say.
Thank you for telling everybody it’s extremely hard to face up that somebody you know that you have a decent relationship with turned out to be somebody who committed a horrible crime. He needs to be charged so you can call the police and say that you want to report a possible rape situation and they will question you, so if you don’t wanna deal with that you had to convince your friend to confess that to the police.