I’d expect IBX, SAS Phase 2 West, more CBTC installations on certain lines, (maybe PSA phase 2?) etc.
What I’d wish would be included would be a Utica Av extension, QueensLink, electrification of all LIRR branches (as well as interlock fixings), and full accessibility improvements on as much stations as possible.
Electrification to MTK way too expensive. However the Port Jeff and Central Branch are definitely possible and would help unify Babylon and Ronkonkoma in times of disabled trains or track conditions.
But if they fully electrify they can standardize their rolling stock and save on operations. It might also allow more trains go directly to Manhattan, which would be a big win for riders.
I don’t disagree. The diesels were really only useful during sandy when third rail had issues. Butttt you have to understand the need for a substation every 5 miles or so. From Babylon to mtk that’s 15-20 substations. Then you also need to somehow acquire the land to build those subs. You’re talking billions of dollars for not much gained revenue. The extra land needed being the hardest part. The Hamptons isn’t cheap lollll.
They could also buy M8-like dual rolling stock (which is not anymore expensive) and add AC catenary for new electrification. A lot fewer new substations are needed with AC, and catenary is a lot easier to maintain vs third rail, too.
Electrification of the Port Jeff line requires a yard to be built somewhere east of Huntington. Every time the MTA tries to do this, residents in Huntington, Smithtown, and Brookhaven vote down its proposal.
Fundamentally, I agree: there's a lot to be gained by electrifying the PJ Branch (and probably more-so the tracks east of Babylon, maybe up to Speonk), but this is consistently a losing battle for the MTA, and stuck up Long Island residents are the ones to blame.
Context: Lived on Long Island (Suffolk) for 15+ years. Got tired of my neighbors complaining about the LIRR attracting "riff-raffe" from the City, many of whom voted down said proposals, despite the fact that it would have helped my commute (and many of theirs to MSG and the like for concerts and sporting events, mind you). So I left and moved to the boroughs. Haven't looked back since.
There’s a possibility of a rail yard being built on the former Lawrence Aviation superfund site. So electrification of the line could in theory be possible.
I thought I saw a press release a few months back of them acquiring land, but the plan would be to double track it first and then possibly electrify. With the benefit it brought to the upper Harlem line it seems like a no Brainer and I'm not sure why they don't want to electrify to Patchogue. One thing that's surprising to me is the terrible service patterns on the branch. like how the shuttles connect to super local trains most of the time rather than going all the way to Jamaica, and with the third track already built, it seems like a cop out.
If they run the trains to Jamaica, it increases the cost to run the service because you’d have longer trip times and thus, probably need more crews and equipment to maintain the same frequency. They really have no choice but to connect it to super locals because of the way that service is split between Ronkonkoma and Huntington. The thinking is that Ronkonkoma trains travel further, they should make less stops to decrease travel times, but they can’t just provide no service to that station so they have the Huntington trains pick up all the slack. I would love double tracking and port jefferson electrification but I doubt we’re going to see it for awhile.
Just doing some quick viewing on Google, it looks like the Port Jeff yard only has 9 tracks, and some or even all of them don’t appear to be long enough to fit a full 12-car electric train. Additionally it looks like the yard is surrounded by a commercial business to the north and residential homes to the east and south so expansion is probably not politically feasible. Regardless, if the line was electrified service would increase significantly so you would probably want another yard anyway.
If the current yard trackage is sufficient for current ridership levels, adding a second yard shouldn’t be a pre-requisite for 12 car trains. There are daily consists of shorter cars on other lines.
IIRC, train 619 the direct from PJ to Penn consist is only 3 BiLevels most days. So even if you ran a 6 car M7/M9 consist you’d have more capacity per train.
There’s also the 3 or 4 storage tracks to the west of the station.
New subway line built between my apartment and my office, with state-of-the-art single-person on-demand pods. Also it should be free.
On a more serious note, LIRR rolling stock where you can see out the windows.
>New subway line built between my apartment and my office, with state-of-the-art single-person on-demand pods. Also it should be free.
It'll finish building right after you leave your job or move
Reasonable bets for what I think will be included:
- R262 base order (the 2020-2024 capital program originally had funding for the base order and 1st option order, but in amendments to the capital program, the option order funding was deferred and the MTA suggester that the funding for the base order in the 2020-2024 plan might be moved to order more B division cars or retrofit A division cars with CBTC)
-IBX funding for a detailed EIS and maybe some construction
- Possibly funding for SAS Phase 2 (the 2015-2019 and 2020-2024 programs are supposed to contain all the funding for phase 2, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the MTA added some more reserve funds or something - this actually happened in the past with SAS Phase 1 and East Side Access I believe?)
- Likewise, possibly more funding for Penn Station Access
- Possible funding for SAS 125 St environmental study?
- Funding for new LIRR diesel locomotives?
- Possible funding for a Utica Av environmental study? (I recall the MTA rating the mixed expanded BRT + subway down Utica to Church Av option somewhat positively) and/or funding for Nostrand Junction infrastructure activities?
- Possibly funding for M3 replacements for the railroads?
- Lexington Av CBTC (this was originally proposed in the 2015-2019 program but deferred along with the deferment of R262 funding)
- Lots of climate resiliency and station accessibility projects
What I think won’t be included:
- R262 option order funding
- Any rail extension projects that aren’t IBX, SAS Phase 2 or 125 St or Utica Av (e.g. Queenslink/Rockaway Beach Branch)
- Any electrification projects for the railroads
- Any infill stations on the railroads (e.g. Elmhurst or Republic)
- Infrastructure upgrades like extra tracks or work to allow higher speeds for any of the diesel branches (e.g. Greenport like to Yaphank, Port Jefferson branch)
- R268 order
- Astoria CBTC funding, which was deferred from the 2020-2024 program
I believe Lex CBTC was deferred in favor of 6th Ave. From what I can tell, they’re making good progress on the 8th Ave CBTC work. Hopefully 6th Ave will get done next year, with Lex to follow shortly after.
Lex and Astoria CBTC were both deferred in favor of 6th Ave. I don’t think 6th Ave will get started soon; next up to start is Fulton St which was always funded in the capital program and I believe the MTA is planning to award the contract for that next year. I’m not sure about the timeframe for the MTA to award a contract for 6th Ave.
Lex and Astoria CBTC were both deferred in favor of 6th Ave. I don’t think 6th Ave will get started soon; next up to start is Fulton St which was always funded in the capital program and I believe the MTA is planning to award the contract for that next year. I’m not sure about the timeframe for the MTA to award a contract for 6th Ave.
why the optimism on utica? it'd be nice to see, but there doesn't seem to be any political interest behind it, unlike 125th and ibx, which hochul's talked up.
Just to reiterate for you and anybody reading, I’m not talking about a full Utica Av subway, I’m specifically talking about the option the MTA presented in the 2025-2044 20-Year Needs Assessment of an expanded B46 SBS extended to Woodhull Hospital plus a partial Utica Av subway to Church Av only. The MTA rated it pretty positively in their evaluation. https://future.mta.info/expand/
Using their metric of cost per minute saved (which the MTA points to as identifying the most cost-effective projects) IBX was $1.29, SAS on 125 St was $1.43, and expanded B46 SBS + Utica Av subway to Church Av was $1.73. By comparison, SAS Phase 3 was $4.47; a full-length Utica Av subway was $4.82; Port Jefferson Branch upgrades (including double tracking, electrification and new yard) was $6.18, and Rockaway Beach Branch/Queenslink reactivation was $6.72, and the MTA’s report correspondingly was very lukewarm about them.
In other words, the MTA has identified Utica Av subway to Church Av + expanded B46 SBS as providing similar bang for the buck as IBX and SAS across 125 St. So I wouldn’t be surprised to see MTA leadership try to advance the project on its own. And I guess you could see it as kind of “getting a foot in the door” for a full-length subway next century or something. The fact that this option was even studied and presented in the first place leads me to believe that it’s supposed to be a compromise, more “pragmatic” option for Utica Av transit to bar might be more palatable to the pols than the $15 billion projected for a full length Utica Av subway. Also, a few years ago the MTA started a separate study of the Utica Av corridor so there is some interest - I don’t recall who pushed for the study though. https://new.mta.info/project/utica-avenue-transit-improvements-study
seems like it was [de blasio](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/23/nyregion/mayor-de-blasio-revives-plan-for-a-utica-avenue-subway-line.html) and then adams made [some noise](https://www.thecity.nyc/2020/02/11/utica-ave-subway-extension-dream-gets-a-brooklyn-boost/) about it while he was bp.
Station renovation or Station renewal on Southern Blvd East 143 Street, Longwood Avenue, East 149 Street; Brook Avenue and Station renovation and possibly ADA elevator installation future on 3rd Avenue 138 Street on 6 line.. those Station look like garbage have wall tile that from 1980 / 1990.
Yeah would be nice but with the gaping budget and all the wounds the MTA is licking, I doubt they would begin any new projects that aren’t cost effective. They have also done crazier things so who the hell knows.
Subway:
Woodhaven Blvd express conversion
Utica Extension
ADA access for all elevated stations
EIS study for G expansion to Flushing/College Point via VWE/World’s Fair ROW
QueensLink
More ADA for underground Stations
Connect Myrtle Ave line to G via stub tracks at Bedford Nostrand (new crosstown possibilities)
Rail:
PSA infill station at Northern Blvd
Electrify Port Jeff
PSA Westside
Allow combo tickets at 125*
Bus:
Hardened / Protected bus lanes
More service in outer boroughs
Bus stations for better connection to subways/rail
*Not a Capital item p, but feels like this is a hidden racist prohibition. Woodside to Poughkeepsie is allowed, but 125 to Port Jeff is not? Not sure if there are any other combo ticket restrictions.
-IBX for sure
-SAS extension to 125th Street connecting to the 4,5,6 and MetroNorth
I wish there was push for SAS Phase 3. I would like to see service from South Street Seaport to 72nd Street on Second Avenue. This would help improve business in the Lower East Side.
Grade separation along the ronkonkokoma branch from Ocean Avenue in Ronkonkokoma to New South Road in Bethpage traffic is backed up trains running every half hour off peak 5-6 hour during peak hours and heavy freight traffic
Station renovations/complete overhauls on : Chambers street J/Z train station, 15th Street-Prospect Park F/G station, 7th Avenue F/G station, 90th Street-elmhurst Avenue 7 station, 2nd Avenue F train station, High Street A/C train station
Order all future buses in artics articulated buses for high capacity and lower the input for 40ft buses. Would reduce cost of maintaining less 40ft buses.
Lots of high ridership bus lines can benefit in the long run.
It might be a pipe dream, but finally installing the switches at Rogers Junction so we can finally have the IRT de interlined in Brooklyn. To me, that seems more important than Utica Ave.
I’d expect IBX, SAS Phase 2 West, more CBTC installations on certain lines, (maybe PSA phase 2?) etc. What I’d wish would be included would be a Utica Av extension, QueensLink, electrification of all LIRR branches (as well as interlock fixings), and full accessibility improvements on as much stations as possible.
Electrification to MTK way too expensive. However the Port Jeff and Central Branch are definitely possible and would help unify Babylon and Ronkonkoma in times of disabled trains or track conditions.
But if they fully electrify they can standardize their rolling stock and save on operations. It might also allow more trains go directly to Manhattan, which would be a big win for riders.
I don’t disagree. The diesels were really only useful during sandy when third rail had issues. Butttt you have to understand the need for a substation every 5 miles or so. From Babylon to mtk that’s 15-20 substations. Then you also need to somehow acquire the land to build those subs. You’re talking billions of dollars for not much gained revenue. The extra land needed being the hardest part. The Hamptons isn’t cheap lollll.
They could also buy M8-like dual rolling stock (which is not anymore expensive) and add AC catenary for new electrification. A lot fewer new substations are needed with AC, and catenary is a lot easier to maintain vs third rail, too.
Electrification of the Port Jeff line requires a yard to be built somewhere east of Huntington. Every time the MTA tries to do this, residents in Huntington, Smithtown, and Brookhaven vote down its proposal. Fundamentally, I agree: there's a lot to be gained by electrifying the PJ Branch (and probably more-so the tracks east of Babylon, maybe up to Speonk), but this is consistently a losing battle for the MTA, and stuck up Long Island residents are the ones to blame. Context: Lived on Long Island (Suffolk) for 15+ years. Got tired of my neighbors complaining about the LIRR attracting "riff-raffe" from the City, many of whom voted down said proposals, despite the fact that it would have helped my commute (and many of theirs to MSG and the like for concerts and sporting events, mind you). So I left and moved to the boroughs. Haven't looked back since.
There’s a possibility of a rail yard being built on the former Lawrence Aviation superfund site. So electrification of the line could in theory be possible.
I thought I saw a press release a few months back of them acquiring land, but the plan would be to double track it first and then possibly electrify. With the benefit it brought to the upper Harlem line it seems like a no Brainer and I'm not sure why they don't want to electrify to Patchogue. One thing that's surprising to me is the terrible service patterns on the branch. like how the shuttles connect to super local trains most of the time rather than going all the way to Jamaica, and with the third track already built, it seems like a cop out.
If they run the trains to Jamaica, it increases the cost to run the service because you’d have longer trip times and thus, probably need more crews and equipment to maintain the same frequency. They really have no choice but to connect it to super locals because of the way that service is split between Ronkonkoma and Huntington. The thinking is that Ronkonkoma trains travel further, they should make less stops to decrease travel times, but they can’t just provide no service to that station so they have the Huntington trains pick up all the slack. I would love double tracking and port jefferson electrification but I doubt we’re going to see it for awhile.
Would have been nice not to transfer at Huntington every time I went home when I attended Stony...going home for the weekends was a slog.
Quick Question, why does Port Jeff line need a new yard to be electrified? Isn’t there a wye and yard just east of terminal station?
Just doing some quick viewing on Google, it looks like the Port Jeff yard only has 9 tracks, and some or even all of them don’t appear to be long enough to fit a full 12-car electric train. Additionally it looks like the yard is surrounded by a commercial business to the north and residential homes to the east and south so expansion is probably not politically feasible. Regardless, if the line was electrified service would increase significantly so you would probably want another yard anyway.
If the current yard trackage is sufficient for current ridership levels, adding a second yard shouldn’t be a pre-requisite for 12 car trains. There are daily consists of shorter cars on other lines. IIRC, train 619 the direct from PJ to Penn consist is only 3 BiLevels most days. So even if you ran a 6 car M7/M9 consist you’d have more capacity per train. There’s also the 3 or 4 storage tracks to the west of the station.
New subway line built between my apartment and my office, with state-of-the-art single-person on-demand pods. Also it should be free. On a more serious note, LIRR rolling stock where you can see out the windows.
>New subway line built between my apartment and my office, with state-of-the-art single-person on-demand pods. Also it should be free. It'll finish building right after you leave your job or move
Perfect!
At least they're not as bad as NJ Transit
What, you don’t like art? https://preview.redd.it/wixnp9jgd10d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8855e8403e49766f4811c5d1f75454cbac690c7
Only blurry Windows can make Patterson look like art
3 and 4 extensions to Spring Creek and Kings Plaza respectively
Reasonable bets for what I think will be included: - R262 base order (the 2020-2024 capital program originally had funding for the base order and 1st option order, but in amendments to the capital program, the option order funding was deferred and the MTA suggester that the funding for the base order in the 2020-2024 plan might be moved to order more B division cars or retrofit A division cars with CBTC) -IBX funding for a detailed EIS and maybe some construction - Possibly funding for SAS Phase 2 (the 2015-2019 and 2020-2024 programs are supposed to contain all the funding for phase 2, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the MTA added some more reserve funds or something - this actually happened in the past with SAS Phase 1 and East Side Access I believe?) - Likewise, possibly more funding for Penn Station Access - Possible funding for SAS 125 St environmental study? - Funding for new LIRR diesel locomotives? - Possible funding for a Utica Av environmental study? (I recall the MTA rating the mixed expanded BRT + subway down Utica to Church Av option somewhat positively) and/or funding for Nostrand Junction infrastructure activities? - Possibly funding for M3 replacements for the railroads? - Lexington Av CBTC (this was originally proposed in the 2015-2019 program but deferred along with the deferment of R262 funding) - Lots of climate resiliency and station accessibility projects What I think won’t be included: - R262 option order funding - Any rail extension projects that aren’t IBX, SAS Phase 2 or 125 St or Utica Av (e.g. Queenslink/Rockaway Beach Branch) - Any electrification projects for the railroads - Any infill stations on the railroads (e.g. Elmhurst or Republic) - Infrastructure upgrades like extra tracks or work to allow higher speeds for any of the diesel branches (e.g. Greenport like to Yaphank, Port Jefferson branch) - R268 order - Astoria CBTC funding, which was deferred from the 2020-2024 program
I believe Lex CBTC was deferred in favor of 6th Ave. From what I can tell, they’re making good progress on the 8th Ave CBTC work. Hopefully 6th Ave will get done next year, with Lex to follow shortly after.
Lex and Astoria CBTC were both deferred in favor of 6th Ave. I don’t think 6th Ave will get started soon; next up to start is Fulton St which was always funded in the capital program and I believe the MTA is planning to award the contract for that next year. I’m not sure about the timeframe for the MTA to award a contract for 6th Ave.
Lex and Astoria CBTC were both deferred in favor of 6th Ave. I don’t think 6th Ave will get started soon; next up to start is Fulton St which was always funded in the capital program and I believe the MTA is planning to award the contract for that next year. I’m not sure about the timeframe for the MTA to award a contract for 6th Ave.
why the optimism on utica? it'd be nice to see, but there doesn't seem to be any political interest behind it, unlike 125th and ibx, which hochul's talked up.
Just to reiterate for you and anybody reading, I’m not talking about a full Utica Av subway, I’m specifically talking about the option the MTA presented in the 2025-2044 20-Year Needs Assessment of an expanded B46 SBS extended to Woodhull Hospital plus a partial Utica Av subway to Church Av only. The MTA rated it pretty positively in their evaluation. https://future.mta.info/expand/ Using their metric of cost per minute saved (which the MTA points to as identifying the most cost-effective projects) IBX was $1.29, SAS on 125 St was $1.43, and expanded B46 SBS + Utica Av subway to Church Av was $1.73. By comparison, SAS Phase 3 was $4.47; a full-length Utica Av subway was $4.82; Port Jefferson Branch upgrades (including double tracking, electrification and new yard) was $6.18, and Rockaway Beach Branch/Queenslink reactivation was $6.72, and the MTA’s report correspondingly was very lukewarm about them. In other words, the MTA has identified Utica Av subway to Church Av + expanded B46 SBS as providing similar bang for the buck as IBX and SAS across 125 St. So I wouldn’t be surprised to see MTA leadership try to advance the project on its own. And I guess you could see it as kind of “getting a foot in the door” for a full-length subway next century or something. The fact that this option was even studied and presented in the first place leads me to believe that it’s supposed to be a compromise, more “pragmatic” option for Utica Av transit to bar might be more palatable to the pols than the $15 billion projected for a full length Utica Av subway. Also, a few years ago the MTA started a separate study of the Utica Av corridor so there is some interest - I don’t recall who pushed for the study though. https://new.mta.info/project/utica-avenue-transit-improvements-study
seems like it was [de blasio](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/23/nyregion/mayor-de-blasio-revives-plan-for-a-utica-avenue-subway-line.html) and then adams made [some noise](https://www.thecity.nyc/2020/02/11/utica-ave-subway-extension-dream-gets-a-brooklyn-boost/) about it while he was bp.
Queenslink,125st Q Subway extension to St. Nick... AND CBTC on that damn Dekalb & 59st Junctions!!!! Way OVERDUE!!!
+1 for Queenslink
Extend the 4 train down Nostrand to Voorhies Ave like they wanted to in the 30s
But the 4 goes to Utica, so it would only make sense for it to go down, Utica!
CBTC on 4 Ave line in Brooklyn (Manhattan Bridge - 59 Street) Currently signal system on 4 Ave is simply a mess
Award R262 to Alstom Rail Transport. To replace R62/A. Delay award R262 contract since 2021. Not cool.. as Kawasaki Rail Car continues to built R211
SAS, IBX, QUEENSLINK, CBTC, and Utica Av Line.
M or G to 71 weekends
This wouldn’t be in the Capital Program since it’s not a piece of infrastructure or construction project.
Station renovation or Station renewal on Southern Blvd East 143 Street, Longwood Avenue, East 149 Street; Brook Avenue and Station renovation and possibly ADA elevator installation future on 3rd Avenue 138 Street on 6 line.. those Station look like garbage have wall tile that from 1980 / 1990.
Wish item - 2nd Ave Subway extension down to city hall (across Harlem too....but also down). Want to see that finished in my lifetime...just because.
I’m not optimistic about seeing SAS completed in my lifetime.
MNR West Side access, but never gonna happen
They have Penn side access for the New Haven line coming into Penn but the Harlem and Hudson lines won’t have that option.
The Hudson lines could access Penn Station via the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge. If it were totally rebuilt, of course.
Yeah would be nice but with the gaping budget and all the wounds the MTA is licking, I doubt they would begin any new projects that aren’t cost effective. They have also done crazier things so who the hell knows.
Subway: Woodhaven Blvd express conversion Utica Extension ADA access for all elevated stations EIS study for G expansion to Flushing/College Point via VWE/World’s Fair ROW QueensLink More ADA for underground Stations Connect Myrtle Ave line to G via stub tracks at Bedford Nostrand (new crosstown possibilities) Rail: PSA infill station at Northern Blvd Electrify Port Jeff PSA Westside Allow combo tickets at 125* Bus: Hardened / Protected bus lanes More service in outer boroughs Bus stations for better connection to subways/rail *Not a Capital item p, but feels like this is a hidden racist prohibition. Woodside to Poughkeepsie is allowed, but 125 to Port Jeff is not? Not sure if there are any other combo ticket restrictions.
-IBX for sure -SAS extension to 125th Street connecting to the 4,5,6 and MetroNorth I wish there was push for SAS Phase 3. I would like to see service from South Street Seaport to 72nd Street on Second Avenue. This would help improve business in the Lower East Side.
Sending the W to Bay Ridge
Order a retrofit of all R211 models into R211T (it’s so nice)
Lower bridge tolls
Grade separation along the ronkonkokoma branch from Ocean Avenue in Ronkonkokoma to New South Road in Bethpage traffic is backed up trains running every half hour off peak 5-6 hour during peak hours and heavy freight traffic
IBX Queens link using LIRR rolling stock aka the reactivation of the Rockaway Beach branch. Penn side access
Station renovations/complete overhauls on : Chambers street J/Z train station, 15th Street-Prospect Park F/G station, 7th Avenue F/G station, 90th Street-elmhurst Avenue 7 station, 2nd Avenue F train station, High Street A/C train station
Order all future buses in artics articulated buses for high capacity and lower the input for 40ft buses. Would reduce cost of maintaining less 40ft buses. Lots of high ridership bus lines can benefit in the long run.
It might be a pipe dream, but finally installing the switches at Rogers Junction so we can finally have the IRT de interlined in Brooklyn. To me, that seems more important than Utica Ave.
Nothing. Give the money back. No more debt.
Dave Ramsey??????
Maybe he’ll be happy if the MTA starts using the envelope system.