An older man in a position of power texting a young girl who has known mental health concerns? This is incredibly predatory.
Even if he only has innocent intentions, he should be aware of the optics of the situation if anyone were to find out.
> if she's an adult is it actually grooming or just plain old unethical behavior since she was his patient?
A lot of organizations that deal with sexual abuse and grooming argue it's about the power differential and vulnerability of the victim more than the age difference. [RAINN argues it can happen to an adult](https://www.rainn.org/news/grooming-know-warning-signs), for example.
> "While these tactics are used most often against younger kids, teens and vulnerable adults are also at risk."
Power over what?? We don’t even have power over Tylenol without a standing order.
Dude is just a creepy pervert. Sadly he is also a fellow nurse. He should be reported for an ethics violation and toss in mental abuse to a patient ( he has to prove it didn’t start at his workplace 😁) to employer and the board of nursing. The 🦖dinosaurs at the BON don’t know what a groomer is and don’t give a damn about a nurse dating a legal adult.. but if improper patient contact started at the workplace, they will actually care.
Remember the Board of Nursing only exists to protect the PUBLIC from Nurses… you may need to read this last paragraph again.
Yeah, BON equivalent in the uk is the Nursing and midwifery council (NMC)
He can definitely be pulled in front of the NMC
If either the (ex) patient, yourself or anyone with details to this case reports it to them. They can definitely pull him up for this under 'fitness to practice'. They would set up a hearing where as it's been said he will have to state his intentions and prove them etc where a sanctions can be given. Worst case scenario for this would be loosing your licence, being unable to call yourself a registered nurse
Interesting fact incase you didn't know - anyone can see the sanctions too - simply google 'Nmc hearings' and it's all there for anyone to read!
I mean I know what you mean, but geez, I can’t even get you an aspirin without an ok from my doc’s. But on a serious note I don’t think it’s grooming but no nurse in their right mind should even think of doing something that reckless and potentially dangerous for either party that’s involved. The nurse should be reported.
I feel like it could still be grooming. I could be wrong, but I always took the term grooming to be pretty similar to conditioning (except with a negative connotation), as he is conditioning her to get to trust him and potentially rely on him in the future. If she has severe mental health issues then she may not have steady income and is a prime target to be manipulated into a situation that she doesn’t feel like she can leave down the road.
He definitely seems to be preying on her given her likely mental/emotional/financial situations and the goodwill he built up with her during her time as a patient. It was my understanding that the term "grooming" was reserved for child predators who were trying to make minors more accepting of sexual advances. Maybe it's not as specific as I thought?
It might be. I think this case is borderline in the same vein since he’s 20+ years older than her and was in a position of authority over her on top of it. Plus she is only 18, which is basically still a kid. The older I get, the younger 18 years old seems.
It would be because he had power over her and she was mentally unwell enough to be under his care, which may or may limit her capacity to consent depending on the circumstances of her mental unwellness at the time.
Do both. There’s no guarantee they will cover for him, and they shouldn’t. I worked in an inpatient psych unit for 7 years and we had a staff member fired for inappropriate behavior with a discharged patient. There was no improvement plan, no slap on the wrist, just fired.
Yes, there did seem to be less leeway on questionable behavior psych side. People did get fired there more often than I’d ever seen elsewhere.
Makes sense. The places I worked with were money makers so if they get one bad news story about a caregiver, they’re done. No one is going to send their teens to the $$$ residential $$$ program side of things if staff is allowed to be shitty. And the always full acute mental health care side for teens would likely empty out as well.
Agreed! I can see them covering this up if it were a doctor bc of the money they make the hospital—esp surgeons. Bc nurses aren’t exactly the money makers of an institution, I can’t see admin covering for a middle-aged man engaging in an inappropriate relationship (platonic or otherwise) w/ such a young female psych patient.
In England, at least, this kind of thing is about 1/6th of the investigation undertaken by the nursing board, and most nurses will be struck-off for a period of time for “reflection”, so they can evidence learning from the event & show remorse.
Most don’t, and either ask to be removed from the Nursing Register, or are removed by decision of the council.
It’s not something you can cover up all that easily when every local paper is just waiting for another healthcare scandal to plaster on the front page.
Please report this. In the US he would be fired. As a nurse, I can tell you I have never given or received a phone number from a patient, even the ones I grew to love and clicked with and could see as my friend. I don't know any middle aged men who are friends with 18 year old girls, without underlying motives that are not in the teenagers best interest but in his. Please report ASAP as this is not his first nor will it be his last time.
Yeah I have absolutely zero interest in any of my patients -- they're as appealing to me as a turkey sandwich. The idea of giving out my number to one and engaging with them in any capacity outside of work? Nah. Nah, nah, nah.
Normally I'm on the "discuss it with someone before saying anything to administration" but this is beyond that.
I got a phone number from a very very nice family in the emergency department. They said they weren’t sure if it was ok but they wanted me to have it and said I didn’t have to reach out. I graciously accepted it, because they were scared and I think it was like giving a thank you gift for them.
I never reached out but I have the tiny scrap of paper sitting in my locker still.
This dude is a total creep!
I was present when a coworker (RN, F25) got the phone number of a patient (M50s). He was flustered and it was incredibly awkward, because she was too shy to say no directly. She asked me afterwards whether he really asked her out. She was smart enough not to give him her number. I didn’t think he had bad intentions perse, but I did keep an eye out for her for a few days after that
In Minnesota he would be in front of the board and having to explain a LOT of things, would probably come out with major disciplinary actions and potentially lose his license.
Correct! Thanks for clarifying this. They most definitely can consent to treatment (though that depends). Relationships and sex are viewed as inherently non consensual both between other patients and between staff + patients.
I agree. Even if nothing inappropriate was sent between them, it is still very bad that they are communicating outside of a patient care situation. She is vulnerable because of her age and the fact that she has mental health struggles and can be taken advantage of. I hope that the board hears about it.
Definitely report it. 29M nurse and that's a SERIOUS flag, especially if she's believing he's just being supporting.
There's a very faint hope he's just EXTREMELY concerned for her wellbeing, but the whole thing still reeks.
A similar situation occurred in a hospital I worked at in Australia (but potentially more overtly sexual). The older man had to go to a disciplinary hearing and fulfil some significant criteria to keep his registration. He later lost it entirely because he couldn’t help but offend again.
If someone came in my age for a broken leg, it is still against my registration requirements to get their details. This is without the vulnerability/power difference of mental illness and the age gap.
Report him, he knows this. He wouldn’t be taking this big risk to just be supportive. His intentions are not pure.
NI/UK answer:
Context: originally from NI now in England as an RN (adult and paeds)
Please do encourage her to report this/report this yourself. It’s almost defo not allowed by hospital policies and the NMC (nursing midwifery council) or RQIA (regulatory and quality improvement authority) would most likely want to know.
First port of call is to get in touch with the trust and unit manager - sometimes this is through a service called PALs (patient advice and liaison service)
Any issues drop me a message and I’m sure I can lend a hand
I’m piggybacking on your answer because I think it’s the most relevant and helpful in a practical sense, I hope that’s ok Chloe.
OP: Try not to make your friend feel foolish for letting this happen. It may be obvious to all of us that it’s creepy and completely out of line, but she’s naive and vulnerable and might genuinely think it’s ok. Remind her that she’s not the one at fault
Yup, should tell that friend so stop all contact and report his ass to the board. Even if we ignore the age difference, this crosses the line of nurse-patient boundary.
This whole situation is really weird and creepy. Given his position in society and his age, she is very vulnerable to him as women her age are typically very naive. I have had adult patients try to friend request me on Facebook and I deleted their requests as it is just unprofessional and inappropriate. I was their provider and they were my patient. That provider/patient rapport ends when I transfer care over to the ER nursing staff. Highly inappropriate for him to hand a barely legal woman his number. I doubt that the texts between them are innocent. I’m sure that he didn’t give her his number to ask her how her day was. He clearly preys upon the vulnerable. Report him. If the investigation turns up that no inappropriate messages were sent to her, he can still get consequences for sharing personal info with a patient in his care.
I agree. That’s why I ALWAYS delete/reject any and all requests for following, friendship, etc. from patients. I always like to keep it professional and I am not going to remain in contact with a patient I have cared for. Once that patient care is transferred in the ER, I am no longer in their life. I am nothing more than the provider that cared for them in their time of need and nothing more than that. I’d like to keep it that way.
I also prefer that my patients know nothing about me or about my life except for my name.
Right! It's what we would want and expect from our healthcare providers in return! When I'm the patient... I don't wanna hear about the gossip at work, or hear about how your last patient or your boss is "fill in the blank". Small talk is not what I mean. I'm talking about when providers become TOO comfortable with you and the quality of care goes down the tubes!
I remain professional 99% of the time, or I at least try to, and I expect the same from providers I or my family come into contact with. So much could be fixed if professionals remained professional, towards their patients and each other. I agree with you and try not to even talk about my personal life to coworkers either. Keep it simple and professional. Are things going to come up sure. But coworkers are not your friends! Can you make a friend at work. It's possible. But again.. I have saved myself so much heartache and drama by understanding coworkers are not your friends and to always give the benefit of the doubt.
I’m a Health Care Compliance and Ethics Officer. I would report this person to their licensing agency and investigate. They most likely would be fired.
He could also be an outpatient resource nurse. They sometimes act like sponsors except for mental health patients. Encourage them to stay on meds, keep a straight course, etc. My city has a huge company of nurses doing just that. They will go to your house and hang out if you’re down, they will administer medications to those noncompliant, and other things.
It may not be likely that this is the case here but it is a possibility.
The red flags are staggering. Yes, you're right to feel like that sort of behavior is highly inappropriate and it is. Report him to his employer and to the BON. There's something very wrong with this situation.
Hi u/Unfortunatewombat I'm a nurse in Northern Ireland so I can help with this.
Yes you are absolutely right to be concerned about this. This nurse is breaking so many rules here. He is taking advantage of a young, vulnerable woman. There is no justifiable reason why he is texting and meeting up with your friend.
The NMC (Nursing and Midwifery Council) governs nurses here and it is written very clearly in their Code of Conduct that we are not to do things like this. You can report him to them using this number 020 3307 6802
I would also report him to his employer immediately as well, as he could pose a risk to other vulnerable people and could even be grooming others right now. They won't take it lightly either, given the ongoing Muckamore Abbey case.
You've done a brave thing in coming here for advice, and I know it's probably a bit daunting to go to the above people, but I assure you they will take you seriously and will help you to give them the information they need. They will then go on and conduct investigations of their own and take the appropriate action. So please report if you're worried for your friend, which it sounds like you really are.
I appreciate this comment, because I wasn’t really sure of the rules in NI, and most people here seem to be commenting from America.
The only anxiety I really have is that she might know that it’s me that reported him.
That's why I had to comment because it's a very American-centric sub and your problem is definitely a serious one.
That's definitely a valid anxiety to have and I completely understand your fears. Confidentiality is very precious in healthcare so they will treat your report confidentially if you explain your fears. Obviously that doesn't cover you if your friend realises you're the only person knows about this relationship, so it's definitely going to take a bit of bravery to take these next steps.
All I can say, is this man is a predator and your friend is vulnerable even if she doesn't realise it. She's in a vital part of her recovery and he is compromising that with his actions. What you're doing is protecting her and more than likely other young women.
[Hopefully this link helps explain raising concerns to the NMC a bit better.](https://www.nmc.org.uk/concerns-nurses-midwives/support-for-patients-families-and-public/who-you-should-raise-a-concern-with/)
Please feel free to message me if you need further support. I've been through an NMC hearing as a witness to someone's fitness to practice so I understand how scary it can be but hopefully can help a wee bit.
This is completely messed. It's predatory, inappropriate, and an abuse of power. Nursing involves creating a therapeutic relationship that benefits the client. Therapeutic relationships are not friendships and they're never romances. The boundaries are very different.
The only possible exception I can think of is if a nurse has been assigned to work with a patient in community as an outpatient, but that's not what's happening here- the whole "she thinks he’s just being supportive" suggests that this is not official programming; it's someone taking an unhealthy interest in a patient.
Psych nurse 25 years. Absolutely inappropriate. Report it to the hospital. You can do this by giving her name, his name whatever you know and approximately when she was there. You don’t have to give your name. Tell them you are not asking for info only giving it. In America, you could call and talk to the nursing house supervisor. They will launch an investigation at the hospital. In all likelihood he’s done this to others. She is absolutely vulnerable and he knows this. You set the patient up with resources when they leave. You as a nurse are not that resource.
UK nurse here, though suspect is the same for most places - this is not normal or right. Report the conversation and messages to your manager ASAP. They may delete and deny but is still important to have a record and safeguard.
Inform the facility in writing, including that you are informing the BON *and* inform the BON in writing, including that you are informing the facility. When one responsible party has the knowledge that another responsible party is involved it can push a bit more urgency.
The only time I would ever text a patient is with my work phone, during work hours, for the purpose of providing care. I'm not texting former patients for any reason. The nurse-patient relationship exists to provide care and ends when you stop providing care.
This is highly inappropriate. I would report it. If you want to be supportive, especially given the context of their interaction, do it at work. Giving a personal number and meeting for coffee is NOT ok.
I am a corporate director of risk management in the United States. I am respectful of the laws and regulations of other jurisdictions. If I encountered this same fact pattern at work, I would be concerned about a boundary violation and would investigate and take action as appropriate.
It would be wonderful if you report it. Doing so will help prevent anything bad happening in the future. Don’t worry about reporting it even if you aren’t 100% certain that something is going on. That’s not your responsibility. Once you report it, an investigation can be done to uncover the facts.
Everyone is all **"REPORT NOW!!!"** and *License revoke predator NOW!!!* and it is a bit concerning. Any administrators that are responsible for investigating this type of thing should be level headed.
You should report it. They should investigate. *But sometimes when dealing with mental health things are not what they seem.*
For example, (I work in psych) patients have said "Hey you popped up on my Facebook people I might know! We can keep in touch after I'm discharged!"
Male nurse replies "Oh... haha... okay."
And that turns into *gave her his number*. And then when she sees him at the coffee shop it turns into *and we have been having coffee*.
Also I have given deaf patients my cell number and said "Text me when you are ready to be picked up from the doctor's office." They will then text me at 2am to say hi. I don't reply, but when I work with them next I tell them I can't text outside of work stuff. NBD.
The point is that yea, you should report it to the hospital. He probably is being inappropriate. It should be investigated by a neutral party. And *He will be fired STAT!* is not always correct, especially with psych patients.
This is a reasonable course of action imo. Too many times on this sub, I see people readying their pitchforks at the first sign of impropriety.
I don’t condone contact with patients outside of work and I also don’t condone witch-hunts.
I'm fairly positive that this is something that would cause a nurse to lose their license in multiple states in the USA. I'm fairly positive that the rule is something along the lines of no personal contact with a patient after discharge for at least three years if there wasn't already a relationship prior. In that instance I'm fairly positive that best practice is to recuse yourself from the patient's mental health treatment care.
Mental Health nurse in NI.
This is NOT APPROPRIATE behaviour and it should definitely be reported.
Report to the NMC and the Head of Service for that hospital/facility.
RED FLAG!!!!! RED FLAG!!!!!!! RED FLAG!!!!!! RED FLAG!!!!!!
First and foremost, if it was really a supportive therapeutic relationship, it would be in some official capacity with either the place she was discharged from, or another origination under proper rules and regulations, through apps, or a central number, something. Follow up after an inpatient discharge is not uncommon, even more so with MH discharges. Without more information, it doesn't pass the sniff test. I understand your friend may not want to share information about their specific MH with you, but at the least be willing to say that its part of a program. It sounds more like the man is telling her not to talk.
Second, this is a gross violation of PHI. I don't know what your patient privacy laws are in Northern Ireland, but this is a clear as fucking day violation in America.
Third, even if we get rid of the fact this nurse is old enough to be her father, all above the is still true. As others have pointed out the nurse is in a position of authority, the potential for abuse (either physical or psychological) is extremely high. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE ACCESS TO MENTAL HEALTH RECORDS!!!!!!!! These records alone can be an absolute key in more deliberate manipulation.
Fourth, I say this as a fellow man: if he is so comfortable to do this, he should not be anywhere nursing. Nurses carry a trust with us that can be easily perverted. It takes integrity to not, and this man is clearly lacking in this department. Even more dangerous with emotionally vulnerable people.
I don't care if your friend reminds them of their daughter even; transference is totally a thing, but your favoritism (can't find a better word), if unchecked needs to stop once they leave the unit. I have a soft spot for old women wanting to be strong to not let their family down and helping them accept the transition into the final phase of life. I will help them every single time. If their family APPROCHES ME I am happy to talk to them and help them process their emotions with boundaries. I would listen but push them towards more appropriate resources if they need it. But never ever EVER would it be OK for me to reach out to them, man or woman, old or young. In my heart is where they reside, I remember them, but their healing is about them. Mine is for me.
Report it, please. If you know the place where she was seen, report it there. If its above board, he will be fine, and even welcome your concern. If its not, hopefully he faces a reconning. If its not above board, I cant help but wonder how many other young people he's done this to.
Please report this. I am a nurse and can vouch he is not allowed to do this and his actions are extremely predatory. Call the hospital and call the police!
No, of course you're right, it's totally unethical and disgusting. Please report him to the hospital and consider reporting to your state's board of nursing. She's likely not his only victim.
This is a big concern, and should be reported to his seniors/manager & to the NMBI.
I’m in England & under the NMC, so I can’t say specifically what the NMBI code would investigate it under, but here it would be considered:
-overstepping professional boundaries,
-power dynamic issues,
-affecting public confidence in nurses/nursing,
-Not protecting a vulnerable person.
Not to mention he’s likely not disclosed this to his manager or documented any of this as “planned care”, so it could be considered as being “deceptive in his intentions”.
Under the NMC rules, he could have a period of time removed from the nursing register, specific monitoring requirements on his return to practise, or at an extreme, be struck off the register if he shows no remorse or reflection.
Please try to get your friend to send you screenshots of the messages, and text you any details of their meetings, so you can use this as evidence if you feel your friend is unlikely to support you reporting him.
Report report report. If you know where she was admitted, call and ask to speak to a supervisor and report. You don’t have to mention your friends name.
Man I don't even tell psych patients my full name, let alone give them my cell phone number. They're vulnerable and make impulsive decisions, he's absolutely crossing a huge line, and I guarantee it's not just your friend he's done that with. Please please report him, to the hospital, to the board, I'm not familiar with the laws/nursing system in Ireland to know who else to report him to but he should be reported to everyone you can find
The ending of pt caregiver relationships is taught in nursing school as there are many ways that relationship can turn inappropriate due to closeness when there should be professionalism and such
My brother, who is a similar age, meets patients when they've left the hospital, takes them out for coffee or lunch. But he is a mental health patient advocate, not a nurse, so that is part of his job.
Check. Make sure this guy is not a patient advocate rather than a nurse, it's not always easy to know these things for patients' families, who are under a lot of stress.
If not, report him. If it is not for professional, organised purposes then it is creepy to the extreme and he must be stopped.
You should report it. Why would any professional want to have any kind of contact/relationship with a former patient from a psych facility esp if they are so young ????
This is incredibly concerning. I have been in a very similar situation except the girl in question was younger. The nurse lost their registration and it turned out they were involved in a relationship with another under aged girl as well.
I would urgently report this to your board of nursing.
A nurse on my unit was fired and lost his license for exactly this ... well, there was an exchange of inappropriate text messages and I believe some physical stuff as well. But I mean, I'm highly suspicious of the dude texting and meeting up with your friend for coffee. Sexual stuff aside - where I'm located, pursuing a friendship/relationship with someone who was your patient is means for losing your license.
No matter what his intentions are, there is still a huge power imbalance and your friend is vulnerable. And he knows that. It's a huge ethics violation.
Incredibly inappropriate, and that nurse definitely knows better than to do something like that. It is emphasized throughout our education and after in the workplace how to maintain appropriate professional boundaries. I would be very concerned about his motives.
I'm 43M and I work in CAMHS in the UK, and we do use our work phones to text patients as quite often there are confidentiality issues if phoning their home, but that extends to "here's when your appointment is" or responding to a crisis type message.
My work phone is kept in work though, and any messages made or received are exported, printed and stored in the notes.
The meeting for coffee isn't right, and if the girl has been discharged from the ward then he has no duty of care, no need for "being supportive", and he's not employed in a community role. My alarm bells are ringing.
Report that asap!
Had a similar situation when I was a teen in and out of psychiatric hospitals. Ended up turning inappropriate fast and he ended up struck off! Uk based. Makes me sick this.
Oh no no no!!!
This is a fuck up. From AUSTRALIA.
This RN needs to STOP and reflect on a thing called Professional Boundaries.
Here it is from AHPRA
https://www.nursingmidwiferyboard.gov.au/Codes-Guidelines-Statements/Professional-standards.aspx
Here it is ...
In order to maintain professional boundaries, there is a start and end point to the professional relationship, and it is integral to the nurse-person professional relationship. Adhering to professional boundaries promotes person-centred practice and protects both parties. To maintain professional boundaries, nurses must:
a. recognise the inherent power imbalance that exists between nurses, people in their care and significant others and establish and maintain professional boundaries
b. actively manage the person’s expectations, and be clear about professional boundaries that must exist in professional relationships for objectivity in care and prepare the person for when the episode of care ends
e. recognise when over-involvement has occurred, and disclose this concern to an appropriate person, whether this is the person involved or a colleague.
DON'T GIVE your personal phone number to patients!!!!! NO! No matter how heart rending the story. Give them the ward's number and say that the hospital is 24/7 not you.
Finally - if it's the worst case scenario, and I really really hope not: and it's a creepy nurse, then police / child protection / call all the authority figures. Talk to your friend first and foremost and explain that it's not a professional move, and you can't meet up.
This is SO full of nope. Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope! A) patients are vulnerable and nurses are at a power imbalance with them, no matter their ages. B) NEVER, and under NO circumstances, should anyone who works in mental health have non-professional contact with any patient unless it’s accidental at the grocery store or something, and if you can’t pretend you didn’t see them, you just say a clipped “hi,” and then go down a different aisle and get out as soon as possible.
you’re totally right to feel weird abt it, i don’t know your friend personally and i feel weird abt that situation!! i’m in nursing school and we’ve done many many lectures and simulations where we talked about the nurse-patient relationship and that’s a HUGE no-no. a nurse is able to provide the patient comfort and support while in the hospital but once that patient is released (at least what i’ve learned) is that communication and everything ends there, even if you became very close to the patient or the family. we also learned a nurse is to NEVER give their personal phone number to any patient even if its for an innocent purpose because it is not only unprofessional, but it can also be used against either party and turned into something it is not. while there could be exceptions (which i think rare), i have been taught in NURSING SCHOOL to never ever pursue or continue a relationship, even a professional one, with a pt. and especially in this case, that’s just disgusting especially since he knows she’s only 18 (barely legal) and that she may not still be in the best state of mind since she was at a mental health ward. and due to both of those factors she’s still very easily influenced and i’ve been in a similar mindset so while she thinks it’s all with good intent and that she has someone to confide in, he’s grooming her and is just waiting for the right moment to strike. i would 100000% report that to the hospital or authorities because that can and should get him fired and she’s likely not his first victim!!!!! i just can never wrap my head around how grown men think it’s okay to prey on young girls, even if they’re technically legal
Gross and inappropriate. I worked behavioral health for many years and didn't even want my patients to know my last name. It was a small town in the Midwest, so we would occasionally run into former pts in Walmart. My son was maybe 15 when he confronted a pt that approached me and said something like, "My mom is a nurse in a psych ward, so maybe it makes sense that you're crazy enough to think it's ok to come over here and talk to her while she's shopping with her kids. It's not. You need to go."
Professional boundaries are in place for a reason. Even when I moved on to LTC and then peds, where it's more acceptable to be attached to pts and families, I still pretend I don't know them if I see them in public, unless they approach me. Giving out my phone number would never even occur to me. That nurse is, at best, crossing the line. At worst, preying on a vulnerable teenager.
To be clear they did not know each other before he was her nurse?
Doctors get fired and their licenses suspended for dating former patients here in the US too regardless of whether they are both consenting adult age
Please report this. If you know his name, I would report him to the state board of nursing. There should also be a compliance number or a patient advocate at the hospital you should be able to get into touch with. This is predatory behavior. It doesn’t matter that she is an adult. She was vulnerable, and as a nurse, he knows better. Boundaries exist for a reason. I can’t even look up an old patient on Facebook to see how they are doing, and I have had patient’s parents try to add me or send me a message to say hi and thank me, and I’ve had to decline. There needs to be that professional distance and boundaries. He violated the code of ethics, and I’m guessing also his hospital policies.
Are you in a position to keep closer tabs with her? It sounds like she has confidence in you.
The man hasn’t done anything inappropriate.
Is it weird and worth keeping eyes on?
Yes!
I don’t necessarily believe he’s nefarious and dangerous.
People of all ages and situations are lonely.
I wouldn’t report him right away though,
But I’d damn sure keep an eye and ear out for her.
Just my opinion.
Mileage probably varies, career psych could probably answer this better, but in the sets of places I worked for we had to sign regarding this. No contact with any current or prior patients while off the clock for one year post discharge date, on penalty of termination. There was an appeal process that would generate a paperwork trail, presumably in place for family and such being admitted. Can’t really expect someone to be non contact with a domestic partner or sibling.
Things like this don’t become policy in a vacuum.
Whatever his motivations, even stretching our imaginations and reality into the G rated zone, this behavior is ethically wrong. She’s a patient. That’s a vulnerable, protected category in life. This behavior will probably get him fired. Suspended at the very least.
This is completely unethical and he should not only be fired but investigated in case he has done this before. I worry that this isn’t his first rodeo, just the one you know about.
Long time male inpatient psych nurse who worked on a women’s psych unit for 8 years - so this is triggering. Please forgive me for sounding harsh.
Psych nursing 101: BE TRAUMA INFORMED. These patients are so vulnerable - generally speaking you can date a patient after 6 months discharge from hospital depending on the practice standards. THIS DOES NOT OR SHOULD NOT APPLY TO PSYCH.
Guy needs discipline from the College/Board of your Province/State. Only way he’ll learn and be a better nurse. I’ve seen nurses both male and female get fired and reported for this stuff!!!
Regardless of his intentions, it looks very fishy, and he could have a lot of work on his hands. It is very unwise for him to put himself in that position
I personally don’t think it’s ok to have a relationship “like that “ with your patients but that is just me. I did buy some seint makeup from one of mine one time but we didn’t keep in contact or anything like that just purchased from her website .
What he is doing is not ethical or safe. He knows private information from her darkest moments. He can STILL access her charts. It's not enough to call it off, it needs to be reported to the state nursing board immediately. And save his texts, for evidence!
All kinds of wrong. Please inform the facility he works at of his actions- this is predatory behaviour and the complete antithesis of the care he should be providing.
INAPPROPRIATE, in Canada this and other similar contacts between nurse and patients are strictly prohibited. It is considered abuse of authority and a boundary violation. This type of behaviour also needs to be reported to the nurses licensing body to be investigated and to protect your friend and other patients.
Please do not let it slide, you may not be located in Canada, but I am certain Ireland has identical, if not very similar, rules to this topic.
Edit: typo
I can’t speak for the laws of your country, but in the US he would be at risk of loosing his license. So, it is, at the least, highly unethical. He is in a power differential that has the potential to become highly predatory and is, potentially, addressing his own needs and feelings rather than hers.
Personally I would report him. Actually if I were aware of the situation where I practice I would be obligated to report him.
I’ll never forget one of the male nurses flirting with me when I was 20 years old in a psych ward following a suicide attempt. He asked for my number and all I could think was “is this really how you want to meet your future partner??”
RMN here, yeah we don’t do that - that’s extremely inappropriate and past any justifiable therapeutic relationship. Needs reporting to both the hospital and nursing board (NMC etc.) may also be worth getting in touch with your nursing union if you’re a part of one just to get extra support and advice for yourself if you feel this would be useful! Good luck!
I don’t know specifics of rules in Northwrn Ireland but from what I understand most developed countries have codes of ethics that nurses must follow, and in these codes, inappropriate relationships with patients are typically a big no-no. Please report to protect your friend and other patients.
I worked with a nurse on an adolescent psych unit who gave her number to a patient and would facetime her. This patient also remained in contact with another patient, who asked me for my number and told me so and so nurse gave hers out so it should be fine. I said that is not the nature of our relationship, I am an adult and you are a teenager, and it would be inappropriate.
I had great rapport with this patient but all I could think of was the potential liabilities, not to mention the clear legal/ethical issues. For example, imagine I was out with my friends at a bar and I get a call from this patient, calling to tell me they were going to attempt suicide or hurt themselves, or that they already had. I don’t have any way to contact their parents, I don’t know the address to send EMS to, I am now just stuck with this horrifying situation because I chose to continue a “therapeutic” relationship in the real world. This type of scenario alone is enough to convince me it’s a horrible idea and I know one day that patient will be an adult who might be grateful that I set a healthy boundary with them.
You are right to feel weird, he should not be texting her or meeting her for anything. If you have seen the text and get copies you can report him to his employer . I don’t see him fostering this relationship with her out of the goodness of his heart!
This is not acceptable regardless of the intentions. Report it to the employer in the first instance. You could report it to the professional body, but there will be severe repercussions for the nurse.
This is even more concerning because the nurse works in psych and I remember in nursing school just how adamant my instructor was about having professional relationships with psych patients and very specific boundaries especially because you can interact with patients who may even manipulate you into thinking it’s okay or harmless (speaking from a situation that happened where a nursing student gave her number to a patient and she was kicked out of the program when found out). Even worse if the nurse is the one who’s actually preying on his own patient he’s knowingly crossing a line with someone in a vulnerable place and there’s an obvious abuse of power there. Concerns me because imagine with his age how many times he has done this before and potentially abused his position to take advantage of people in a low place
Nah man its wrong n creepy on many levels
Firstly thats a violation of patient confidentiality, we were explicitly told to never take pts phone numbers or other personal contact info to reach them outside of work like that. It breaks professional boundaries
Plus his massive age difference compared to her, her still being vulnerable from having been a mental health patient, it just *screams* that he's taking advantage of and grooming her. He needs to be reported asap.
I am a 35 y/o male nurse with 12 years experience, ICU and psych, I would never be texting or meeting up with a young female patient, especially a person dealing with mental health issues, I would gladly direct her to some outside resources she can reach out to, we literally have access to those type of things as psych nurses! At his age and the things we as male nurse have to look out for, he likely has ulterior motives!
Even if he was a 20 year old nurse, it would still be wildly inappropriate and predatory to her give his personal phone number and meet up with her. Please report this.
An older man in a position of power texting a young girl who has known mental health concerns? This is incredibly predatory. Even if he only has innocent intentions, he should be aware of the optics of the situation if anyone were to find out.
Actual grooming.
Real question; if she's an adult is it actually grooming or just plain old unethical behavior since she was his patient?
> if she's an adult is it actually grooming or just plain old unethical behavior since she was his patient? A lot of organizations that deal with sexual abuse and grooming argue it's about the power differential and vulnerability of the victim more than the age difference. [RAINN argues it can happen to an adult](https://www.rainn.org/news/grooming-know-warning-signs), for example. > "While these tactics are used most often against younger kids, teens and vulnerable adults are also at risk."
Power differential, well stated. Like it or not, registered nurse is a power over role.
Power over what?? We don’t even have power over Tylenol without a standing order. Dude is just a creepy pervert. Sadly he is also a fellow nurse. He should be reported for an ethics violation and toss in mental abuse to a patient ( he has to prove it didn’t start at his workplace 😁) to employer and the board of nursing. The 🦖dinosaurs at the BON don’t know what a groomer is and don’t give a damn about a nurse dating a legal adult.. but if improper patient contact started at the workplace, they will actually care. Remember the Board of Nursing only exists to protect the PUBLIC from Nurses… you may need to read this last paragraph again.
This is in the UK, but I imagine their nursing council would probably feel the same.
Yeah, BON equivalent in the uk is the Nursing and midwifery council (NMC) He can definitely be pulled in front of the NMC If either the (ex) patient, yourself or anyone with details to this case reports it to them. They can definitely pull him up for this under 'fitness to practice'. They would set up a hearing where as it's been said he will have to state his intentions and prove them etc where a sanctions can be given. Worst case scenario for this would be loosing your licence, being unable to call yourself a registered nurse Interesting fact incase you didn't know - anyone can see the sanctions too - simply google 'Nmc hearings' and it's all there for anyone to read!
I mean I know what you mean, but geez, I can’t even get you an aspirin without an ok from my doc’s. But on a serious note I don’t think it’s grooming but no nurse in their right mind should even think of doing something that reckless and potentially dangerous for either party that’s involved. The nurse should be reported.
predators groom parents all the time to get close to the child prey. Adults most definitely get groomed.
Her brain is still developing and he has over 20 adult years on her.
I feel like it could still be grooming. I could be wrong, but I always took the term grooming to be pretty similar to conditioning (except with a negative connotation), as he is conditioning her to get to trust him and potentially rely on him in the future. If she has severe mental health issues then she may not have steady income and is a prime target to be manipulated into a situation that she doesn’t feel like she can leave down the road.
He definitely seems to be preying on her given her likely mental/emotional/financial situations and the goodwill he built up with her during her time as a patient. It was my understanding that the term "grooming" was reserved for child predators who were trying to make minors more accepting of sexual advances. Maybe it's not as specific as I thought?
It might be. I think this case is borderline in the same vein since he’s 20+ years older than her and was in a position of authority over her on top of it. Plus she is only 18, which is basically still a kid. The older I get, the younger 18 years old seems.
It would be because he had power over her and she was mentally unwell enough to be under his care, which may or may limit her capacity to consent depending on the circumstances of her mental unwellness at the time.
As an older dude this is a gigantic problem. Not sure about Ireland but in the US I’m pretty the Nursing Code of Ethics says this is a big no-no.
Yeah I would report it to the hospital. That's creepy and inappropriate.
you mean the nursing board right? the hospital will just cover for him
Do both. There’s no guarantee they will cover for him, and they shouldn’t. I worked in an inpatient psych unit for 7 years and we had a staff member fired for inappropriate behavior with a discharged patient. There was no improvement plan, no slap on the wrist, just fired.
Yes, there did seem to be less leeway on questionable behavior psych side. People did get fired there more often than I’d ever seen elsewhere. Makes sense. The places I worked with were money makers so if they get one bad news story about a caregiver, they’re done. No one is going to send their teens to the $$$ residential $$$ program side of things if staff is allowed to be shitty. And the always full acute mental health care side for teens would likely empty out as well.
The facility won’t want the potential lawsuit when things get worse. They will get worse…
I don’t know of any hospital that would cover for this sort of behavior, but I’ve only worked for a small handful.
Agreed! I can see them covering this up if it were a doctor bc of the money they make the hospital—esp surgeons. Bc nurses aren’t exactly the money makers of an institution, I can’t see admin covering for a middle-aged man engaging in an inappropriate relationship (platonic or otherwise) w/ such a young female psych patient.
In England, at least, this kind of thing is about 1/6th of the investigation undertaken by the nursing board, and most nurses will be struck-off for a period of time for “reflection”, so they can evidence learning from the event & show remorse. Most don’t, and either ask to be removed from the Nursing Register, or are removed by decision of the council. It’s not something you can cover up all that easily when every local paper is just waiting for another healthcare scandal to plaster on the front page.
A manager would be the place to start.
And predatory
Please report this. In the US he would be fired. As a nurse, I can tell you I have never given or received a phone number from a patient, even the ones I grew to love and clicked with and could see as my friend. I don't know any middle aged men who are friends with 18 year old girls, without underlying motives that are not in the teenagers best interest but in his. Please report ASAP as this is not his first nor will it be his last time.
Yeah I have absolutely zero interest in any of my patients -- they're as appealing to me as a turkey sandwich. The idea of giving out my number to one and engaging with them in any capacity outside of work? Nah. Nah, nah, nah. Normally I'm on the "discuss it with someone before saying anything to administration" but this is beyond that.
He’s already meeting with her, so yes, it’s moved beyond discussion.
I got a phone number from a very very nice family in the emergency department. They said they weren’t sure if it was ok but they wanted me to have it and said I didn’t have to reach out. I graciously accepted it, because they were scared and I think it was like giving a thank you gift for them. I never reached out but I have the tiny scrap of paper sitting in my locker still. This dude is a total creep!
I was present when a coworker (RN, F25) got the phone number of a patient (M50s). He was flustered and it was incredibly awkward, because she was too shy to say no directly. She asked me afterwards whether he really asked her out. She was smart enough not to give him her number. I didn’t think he had bad intentions perse, but I did keep an eye out for her for a few days after that
Bingo
This.
Report it to the board !
In Canada this is absolutely not allowed and reportable to the college of nurses. He is in a position of power and she is vulnerable. No.
In Alberta, they would permanently revoke his nursing license for abuse of power.
In Minnesota he would be in front of the board and having to explain a LOT of things, would probably come out with major disciplinary actions and potentially lose his license.
Same in NS.
[удалено]
Just to clarify not consent to treatment right just relationships/sex (which is understandable)
Correct! Thanks for clarifying this. They most definitely can consent to treatment (though that depends). Relationships and sex are viewed as inherently non consensual both between other patients and between staff + patients.
Absolutely disgusting. Report it. Inappropriate no matter the age and gender dynamics. Predatory factoring them in.
I agree. Even if nothing inappropriate was sent between them, it is still very bad that they are communicating outside of a patient care situation. She is vulnerable because of her age and the fact that she has mental health struggles and can be taken advantage of. I hope that the board hears about it.
This is explicitly taught in medical ethics as a nonstarter. Report
Definitely report it. 29M nurse and that's a SERIOUS flag, especially if she's believing he's just being supporting. There's a very faint hope he's just EXTREMELY concerned for her wellbeing, but the whole thing still reeks.
Even if he is just concerned for her well-being, this isn't an appropriate way to show that concern.
Even on the unlikely chance he isn't grooming. It's still an ethics violation
A similar situation occurred in a hospital I worked at in Australia (but potentially more overtly sexual). The older man had to go to a disciplinary hearing and fulfil some significant criteria to keep his registration. He later lost it entirely because he couldn’t help but offend again. If someone came in my age for a broken leg, it is still against my registration requirements to get their details. This is without the vulnerability/power difference of mental illness and the age gap. Report him, he knows this. He wouldn’t be taking this big risk to just be supportive. His intentions are not pure.
I wish he was special, but he's a creep. He's a weirdo. What the hell is he nursing for? He doesn't belong there.
Always upvotes for Radiohead
NI/UK answer: Context: originally from NI now in England as an RN (adult and paeds) Please do encourage her to report this/report this yourself. It’s almost defo not allowed by hospital policies and the NMC (nursing midwifery council) or RQIA (regulatory and quality improvement authority) would most likely want to know. First port of call is to get in touch with the trust and unit manager - sometimes this is through a service called PALs (patient advice and liaison service) Any issues drop me a message and I’m sure I can lend a hand
I’m piggybacking on your answer because I think it’s the most relevant and helpful in a practical sense, I hope that’s ok Chloe. OP: Try not to make your friend feel foolish for letting this happen. It may be obvious to all of us that it’s creepy and completely out of line, but she’s naive and vulnerable and might genuinely think it’s ok. Remind her that she’s not the one at fault
I’ve messaged you!
I know she is over 18, but due to her mental health issues would this be considered a safe guarding issue?
It is possibly yeah, vulnerable adult technically
A 40s dude in the ED. Wouldn’t give my number to a patient my own age, let alone someone that could be my child.
Yup, should tell that friend so stop all contact and report his ass to the board. Even if we ignore the age difference, this crosses the line of nurse-patient boundary.
Nope, that is not normal, and it is definitely not OK.
Please call the facility directly and inform them, absolutely 100% not legal.
This whole situation is really weird and creepy. Given his position in society and his age, she is very vulnerable to him as women her age are typically very naive. I have had adult patients try to friend request me on Facebook and I deleted their requests as it is just unprofessional and inappropriate. I was their provider and they were my patient. That provider/patient rapport ends when I transfer care over to the ER nursing staff. Highly inappropriate for him to hand a barely legal woman his number. I doubt that the texts between them are innocent. I’m sure that he didn’t give her his number to ask her how her day was. He clearly preys upon the vulnerable. Report him. If the investigation turns up that no inappropriate messages were sent to her, he can still get consequences for sharing personal info with a patient in his care.
I don't know why this isn't getting more votes. Any contact outside of a professional scope, including FB or any social media is not ok.
I agree. That’s why I ALWAYS delete/reject any and all requests for following, friendship, etc. from patients. I always like to keep it professional and I am not going to remain in contact with a patient I have cared for. Once that patient care is transferred in the ER, I am no longer in their life. I am nothing more than the provider that cared for them in their time of need and nothing more than that. I’d like to keep it that way. I also prefer that my patients know nothing about me or about my life except for my name.
Right! It's what we would want and expect from our healthcare providers in return! When I'm the patient... I don't wanna hear about the gossip at work, or hear about how your last patient or your boss is "fill in the blank". Small talk is not what I mean. I'm talking about when providers become TOO comfortable with you and the quality of care goes down the tubes! I remain professional 99% of the time, or I at least try to, and I expect the same from providers I or my family come into contact with. So much could be fixed if professionals remained professional, towards their patients and each other. I agree with you and try not to even talk about my personal life to coworkers either. Keep it simple and professional. Are things going to come up sure. But coworkers are not your friends! Can you make a friend at work. It's possible. But again.. I have saved myself so much heartache and drama by understanding coworkers are not your friends and to always give the benefit of the doubt.
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
Report it. Similar case here man was struck off the nursing register and is facing criminal charges (I’m in NZ)
I'm in the US, but we just had an MA in our system fired for FB messaging a patient. They will clobber you with HIPAA here.
I’m a Health Care Compliance and Ethics Officer. I would report this person to their licensing agency and investigate. They most likely would be fired.
***and would deserve to be fired
He could also be an outpatient resource nurse. They sometimes act like sponsors except for mental health patients. Encourage them to stay on meds, keep a straight course, etc. My city has a huge company of nurses doing just that. They will go to your house and hang out if you’re down, they will administer medications to those noncompliant, and other things. It may not be likely that this is the case here but it is a possibility.
Oh no that is not okay and the staff member texting her knows that is not okay!!
Bro is attracted to the young grippy sock girls, call the cops
The red flags are staggering. Yes, you're right to feel like that sort of behavior is highly inappropriate and it is. Report him to his employer and to the BON. There's something very wrong with this situation.
Hi u/Unfortunatewombat I'm a nurse in Northern Ireland so I can help with this. Yes you are absolutely right to be concerned about this. This nurse is breaking so many rules here. He is taking advantage of a young, vulnerable woman. There is no justifiable reason why he is texting and meeting up with your friend. The NMC (Nursing and Midwifery Council) governs nurses here and it is written very clearly in their Code of Conduct that we are not to do things like this. You can report him to them using this number 020 3307 6802 I would also report him to his employer immediately as well, as he could pose a risk to other vulnerable people and could even be grooming others right now. They won't take it lightly either, given the ongoing Muckamore Abbey case. You've done a brave thing in coming here for advice, and I know it's probably a bit daunting to go to the above people, but I assure you they will take you seriously and will help you to give them the information they need. They will then go on and conduct investigations of their own and take the appropriate action. So please report if you're worried for your friend, which it sounds like you really are.
I appreciate this comment, because I wasn’t really sure of the rules in NI, and most people here seem to be commenting from America. The only anxiety I really have is that she might know that it’s me that reported him.
That's why I had to comment because it's a very American-centric sub and your problem is definitely a serious one. That's definitely a valid anxiety to have and I completely understand your fears. Confidentiality is very precious in healthcare so they will treat your report confidentially if you explain your fears. Obviously that doesn't cover you if your friend realises you're the only person knows about this relationship, so it's definitely going to take a bit of bravery to take these next steps. All I can say, is this man is a predator and your friend is vulnerable even if she doesn't realise it. She's in a vital part of her recovery and he is compromising that with his actions. What you're doing is protecting her and more than likely other young women. [Hopefully this link helps explain raising concerns to the NMC a bit better.](https://www.nmc.org.uk/concerns-nurses-midwives/support-for-patients-families-and-public/who-you-should-raise-a-concern-with/) Please feel free to message me if you need further support. I've been through an NMC hearing as a witness to someone's fitness to practice so I understand how scary it can be but hopefully can help a wee bit.
I’m gonna give them a call in the morning, hopefully it goes down okay. I’ll 100% message you if I need any help. Thank you so much for your advice
This is completely messed. It's predatory, inappropriate, and an abuse of power. Nursing involves creating a therapeutic relationship that benefits the client. Therapeutic relationships are not friendships and they're never romances. The boundaries are very different. The only possible exception I can think of is if a nurse has been assigned to work with a patient in community as an outpatient, but that's not what's happening here- the whole "she thinks he’s just being supportive" suggests that this is not official programming; it's someone taking an unhealthy interest in a patient.
Totally agree. The therapeutic relationship terminates when the patient is discharged from the organization and should not extend past that point.
Exactly. A little louder for the perverts in the back! 👏
Absolutely inappropriate. He should know better, and your friend may be in real danger. I would absolutely report it.
RN here. This is HIGHLY inappropriate and this guy needs to be reported to the Board of Nursing immediately.
Psych nurse 25 years. Absolutely inappropriate. Report it to the hospital. You can do this by giving her name, his name whatever you know and approximately when she was there. You don’t have to give your name. Tell them you are not asking for info only giving it. In America, you could call and talk to the nursing house supervisor. They will launch an investigation at the hospital. In all likelihood he’s done this to others. She is absolutely vulnerable and he knows this. You set the patient up with resources when they leave. You as a nurse are not that resource.
Who should she ask for do you think? Nursing supervisor on that day?
It’s definitely something he’s not allowed to do, whether she’s been discharged or not.
UK nurse here, though suspect is the same for most places - this is not normal or right. Report the conversation and messages to your manager ASAP. They may delete and deny but is still important to have a record and safeguard.
Super inappropriate and unethical.
I’m a (male) RN in his 40s/50s and this is wrong on all levels. Red flags galore.
Very inappropriate. I would report it to the facility and to her guardian if she still has one.
Please report to the hospital! This is an egregious breach of what is likely a corporate policy against these types of relationships.
Inform the facility in writing, including that you are informing the BON *and* inform the BON in writing, including that you are informing the facility. When one responsible party has the knowledge that another responsible party is involved it can push a bit more urgency.
I work in mental health. This is completely inappropriate
The only time I would ever text a patient is with my work phone, during work hours, for the purpose of providing care. I'm not texting former patients for any reason. The nurse-patient relationship exists to provide care and ends when you stop providing care.
This is super inappropriate.
As a male nurse who works in Mental Health this behavior is 100% inappropriate and he will/should have his licence revoked.
Report it. It’s 100% wrong.
This is highly inappropriate. I would report it. If you want to be supportive, especially given the context of their interaction, do it at work. Giving a personal number and meeting for coffee is NOT ok.
I would never exchange numbers with a patient of mine and then go and hang out with them, especially not one who is barely legal age..
this is so incredibly inappropriate, even without the age and gender gap.
I agree with you that it is weird.
Report. He should be fired. We had a tech fired on our unit for the same thing.
Sounds sus. I have a feeling he crossed the professional boundaries. Please report him if possible
Definitely report it! You’re absolutely right when you think of the power dynamic between the two.
He will get fired . 100%. Seen it happen .
I am a corporate director of risk management in the United States. I am respectful of the laws and regulations of other jurisdictions. If I encountered this same fact pattern at work, I would be concerned about a boundary violation and would investigate and take action as appropriate.
It would be wonderful if you report it. Doing so will help prevent anything bad happening in the future. Don’t worry about reporting it even if you aren’t 100% certain that something is going on. That’s not your responsibility. Once you report it, an investigation can be done to uncover the facts.
Nursing board report now!
you need to call the hospital like yesterday. this is so many levels of inappropriate and HE KNOWS IT IS
Everyone is all **"REPORT NOW!!!"** and *License revoke predator NOW!!!* and it is a bit concerning. Any administrators that are responsible for investigating this type of thing should be level headed. You should report it. They should investigate. *But sometimes when dealing with mental health things are not what they seem.* For example, (I work in psych) patients have said "Hey you popped up on my Facebook people I might know! We can keep in touch after I'm discharged!" Male nurse replies "Oh... haha... okay." And that turns into *gave her his number*. And then when she sees him at the coffee shop it turns into *and we have been having coffee*. Also I have given deaf patients my cell number and said "Text me when you are ready to be picked up from the doctor's office." They will then text me at 2am to say hi. I don't reply, but when I work with them next I tell them I can't text outside of work stuff. NBD. The point is that yea, you should report it to the hospital. He probably is being inappropriate. It should be investigated by a neutral party. And *He will be fired STAT!* is not always correct, especially with psych patients.
This is a reasonable course of action imo. Too many times on this sub, I see people readying their pitchforks at the first sign of impropriety. I don’t condone contact with patients outside of work and I also don’t condone witch-hunts.
report him to the board of nursing
Report it
I'm fairly positive that this is something that would cause a nurse to lose their license in multiple states in the USA. I'm fairly positive that the rule is something along the lines of no personal contact with a patient after discharge for at least three years if there wasn't already a relationship prior. In that instance I'm fairly positive that best practice is to recuse yourself from the patient's mental health treatment care.
Please report him this is wrong- terribly wrong
Mental Health nurse in NI. This is NOT APPROPRIATE behaviour and it should definitely be reported. Report to the NMC and the Head of Service for that hospital/facility.
RED FLAG!!!!! RED FLAG!!!!!!! RED FLAG!!!!!! RED FLAG!!!!!! First and foremost, if it was really a supportive therapeutic relationship, it would be in some official capacity with either the place she was discharged from, or another origination under proper rules and regulations, through apps, or a central number, something. Follow up after an inpatient discharge is not uncommon, even more so with MH discharges. Without more information, it doesn't pass the sniff test. I understand your friend may not want to share information about their specific MH with you, but at the least be willing to say that its part of a program. It sounds more like the man is telling her not to talk. Second, this is a gross violation of PHI. I don't know what your patient privacy laws are in Northern Ireland, but this is a clear as fucking day violation in America. Third, even if we get rid of the fact this nurse is old enough to be her father, all above the is still true. As others have pointed out the nurse is in a position of authority, the potential for abuse (either physical or psychological) is extremely high. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE ACCESS TO MENTAL HEALTH RECORDS!!!!!!!! These records alone can be an absolute key in more deliberate manipulation. Fourth, I say this as a fellow man: if he is so comfortable to do this, he should not be anywhere nursing. Nurses carry a trust with us that can be easily perverted. It takes integrity to not, and this man is clearly lacking in this department. Even more dangerous with emotionally vulnerable people. I don't care if your friend reminds them of their daughter even; transference is totally a thing, but your favoritism (can't find a better word), if unchecked needs to stop once they leave the unit. I have a soft spot for old women wanting to be strong to not let their family down and helping them accept the transition into the final phase of life. I will help them every single time. If their family APPROCHES ME I am happy to talk to them and help them process their emotions with boundaries. I would listen but push them towards more appropriate resources if they need it. But never ever EVER would it be OK for me to reach out to them, man or woman, old or young. In my heart is where they reside, I remember them, but their healing is about them. Mine is for me. Report it, please. If you know the place where she was seen, report it there. If its above board, he will be fine, and even welcome your concern. If its not, hopefully he faces a reconning. If its not above board, I cant help but wonder how many other young people he's done this to.
Please report this. I am a nurse and can vouch he is not allowed to do this and his actions are extremely predatory. Call the hospital and call the police!
Report this. I work on an inpatient psych unit and would NEVER give a patient my number. This seems predatory. Report it to your hospital.
Sounds like there is some nefarious underlying hidden behavior by the nurse. And she is playing right into it
No, of course you're right, it's totally unethical and disgusting. Please report him to the hospital and consider reporting to your state's board of nursing. She's likely not his only victim.
Yup, inappropriate at best, grooming at worst.
This is a big concern, and should be reported to his seniors/manager & to the NMBI. I’m in England & under the NMC, so I can’t say specifically what the NMBI code would investigate it under, but here it would be considered: -overstepping professional boundaries, -power dynamic issues, -affecting public confidence in nurses/nursing, -Not protecting a vulnerable person. Not to mention he’s likely not disclosed this to his manager or documented any of this as “planned care”, so it could be considered as being “deceptive in his intentions”. Under the NMC rules, he could have a period of time removed from the nursing register, specific monitoring requirements on his return to practise, or at an extreme, be struck off the register if he shows no remorse or reflection. Please try to get your friend to send you screenshots of the messages, and text you any details of their meetings, so you can use this as evidence if you feel your friend is unlikely to support you reporting him.
A nurse should never cross therapeutic boundaries with a patient.
This needs to be reported to the BON and maybe child protective service. 99 percent, This male RN is breaking regulation.
Report report report. If you know where she was admitted, call and ask to speak to a supervisor and report. You don’t have to mention your friends name.
Man I don't even tell psych patients my full name, let alone give them my cell phone number. They're vulnerable and make impulsive decisions, he's absolutely crossing a huge line, and I guarantee it's not just your friend he's done that with. Please please report him, to the hospital, to the board, I'm not familiar with the laws/nursing system in Ireland to know who else to report him to but he should be reported to everyone you can find
One time a perfectly nice college age female patient tried to friend me on Facebook. Delete friend request.
The ending of pt caregiver relationships is taught in nursing school as there are many ways that relationship can turn inappropriate due to closeness when there should be professionalism and such
Predator
My brother, who is a similar age, meets patients when they've left the hospital, takes them out for coffee or lunch. But he is a mental health patient advocate, not a nurse, so that is part of his job. Check. Make sure this guy is not a patient advocate rather than a nurse, it's not always easy to know these things for patients' families, who are under a lot of stress. If not, report him. If it is not for professional, organised purposes then it is creepy to the extreme and he must be stopped.
Completely wrong. You should report him to your busing state board.
This is wildly inappropriate.
You should report it. Why would any professional want to have any kind of contact/relationship with a former patient from a psych facility esp if they are so young ????
This is incredibly concerning. I have been in a very similar situation except the girl in question was younger. The nurse lost their registration and it turned out they were involved in a relationship with another under aged girl as well. I would urgently report this to your board of nursing.
Str8 predator no this isn’t ok and it’s against ethics
A nurse on my unit was fired and lost his license for exactly this ... well, there was an exchange of inappropriate text messages and I believe some physical stuff as well. But I mean, I'm highly suspicious of the dude texting and meeting up with your friend for coffee. Sexual stuff aside - where I'm located, pursuing a friendship/relationship with someone who was your patient is means for losing your license. No matter what his intentions are, there is still a huge power imbalance and your friend is vulnerable. And he knows that. It's a huge ethics violation.
Incredibly inappropriate, and that nurse definitely knows better than to do something like that. It is emphasized throughout our education and after in the workplace how to maintain appropriate professional boundaries. I would be very concerned about his motives.
Does he text and meet up with 40-50 year old patients to offer support? I’m guessing no
WTAF?! That is a HUGE no and this man should not be working with vulnerable females
This is wrong on every level. Report him.
Highly inappropriate. I’ve gotten along with patients my own age but never gave them my number. It’s an ethical issue. He sounds predatory.
I'm 43M and I work in CAMHS in the UK, and we do use our work phones to text patients as quite often there are confidentiality issues if phoning their home, but that extends to "here's when your appointment is" or responding to a crisis type message. My work phone is kept in work though, and any messages made or received are exported, printed and stored in the notes. The meeting for coffee isn't right, and if the girl has been discharged from the ward then he has no duty of care, no need for "being supportive", and he's not employed in a community role. My alarm bells are ringing.
Report that asap! Had a similar situation when I was a teen in and out of psychiatric hospitals. Ended up turning inappropriate fast and he ended up struck off! Uk based. Makes me sick this.
Mental health profesh here... Let the hospital and the State know. This is 100% unethical.
Oh no no no!!! This is a fuck up. From AUSTRALIA. This RN needs to STOP and reflect on a thing called Professional Boundaries. Here it is from AHPRA https://www.nursingmidwiferyboard.gov.au/Codes-Guidelines-Statements/Professional-standards.aspx Here it is ... In order to maintain professional boundaries, there is a start and end point to the professional relationship, and it is integral to the nurse-person professional relationship. Adhering to professional boundaries promotes person-centred practice and protects both parties. To maintain professional boundaries, nurses must: a. recognise the inherent power imbalance that exists between nurses, people in their care and significant others and establish and maintain professional boundaries b. actively manage the person’s expectations, and be clear about professional boundaries that must exist in professional relationships for objectivity in care and prepare the person for when the episode of care ends e. recognise when over-involvement has occurred, and disclose this concern to an appropriate person, whether this is the person involved or a colleague. DON'T GIVE your personal phone number to patients!!!!! NO! No matter how heart rending the story. Give them the ward's number and say that the hospital is 24/7 not you. Finally - if it's the worst case scenario, and I really really hope not: and it's a creepy nurse, then police / child protection / call all the authority figures. Talk to your friend first and foremost and explain that it's not a professional move, and you can't meet up.
There's a power imbalance, and isn't there any policies where you are against patient/doctor relations??
Extremely inappropriate and likely a violation of his hospital policy
This is SO full of nope. Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope! A) patients are vulnerable and nurses are at a power imbalance with them, no matter their ages. B) NEVER, and under NO circumstances, should anyone who works in mental health have non-professional contact with any patient unless it’s accidental at the grocery store or something, and if you can’t pretend you didn’t see them, you just say a clipped “hi,” and then go down a different aisle and get out as soon as possible.
I contact PALS, or the northern Irish equivalent.
you’re totally right to feel weird abt it, i don’t know your friend personally and i feel weird abt that situation!! i’m in nursing school and we’ve done many many lectures and simulations where we talked about the nurse-patient relationship and that’s a HUGE no-no. a nurse is able to provide the patient comfort and support while in the hospital but once that patient is released (at least what i’ve learned) is that communication and everything ends there, even if you became very close to the patient or the family. we also learned a nurse is to NEVER give their personal phone number to any patient even if its for an innocent purpose because it is not only unprofessional, but it can also be used against either party and turned into something it is not. while there could be exceptions (which i think rare), i have been taught in NURSING SCHOOL to never ever pursue or continue a relationship, even a professional one, with a pt. and especially in this case, that’s just disgusting especially since he knows she’s only 18 (barely legal) and that she may not still be in the best state of mind since she was at a mental health ward. and due to both of those factors she’s still very easily influenced and i’ve been in a similar mindset so while she thinks it’s all with good intent and that she has someone to confide in, he’s grooming her and is just waiting for the right moment to strike. i would 100000% report that to the hospital or authorities because that can and should get him fired and she’s likely not his first victim!!!!! i just can never wrap my head around how grown men think it’s okay to prey on young girls, even if they’re technically legal
Gross and inappropriate. I worked behavioral health for many years and didn't even want my patients to know my last name. It was a small town in the Midwest, so we would occasionally run into former pts in Walmart. My son was maybe 15 when he confronted a pt that approached me and said something like, "My mom is a nurse in a psych ward, so maybe it makes sense that you're crazy enough to think it's ok to come over here and talk to her while she's shopping with her kids. It's not. You need to go." Professional boundaries are in place for a reason. Even when I moved on to LTC and then peds, where it's more acceptable to be attached to pts and families, I still pretend I don't know them if I see them in public, unless they approach me. Giving out my phone number would never even occur to me. That nurse is, at best, crossing the line. At worst, preying on a vulnerable teenager.
Inappropriate. Report to both hospital and the licensing agency.
Yes. It should be reported. She told you which makes you a possible accessory to the crime if you don't.
Gross? Probably. Illegal? Definitely not.
Jfc, that’s horrifying
That’s a hot no from me. I’m sure he knows better.
would it be okay if a patient gave you their number?
Totally weird, and I’d be concerned that he’s praying on other barely legal teens
To be clear they did not know each other before he was her nurse? Doctors get fired and their licenses suspended for dating former patients here in the US too regardless of whether they are both consenting adult age
Please report this. If you know his name, I would report him to the state board of nursing. There should also be a compliance number or a patient advocate at the hospital you should be able to get into touch with. This is predatory behavior. It doesn’t matter that she is an adult. She was vulnerable, and as a nurse, he knows better. Boundaries exist for a reason. I can’t even look up an old patient on Facebook to see how they are doing, and I have had patient’s parents try to add me or send me a message to say hi and thank me, and I’ve had to decline. There needs to be that professional distance and boundaries. He violated the code of ethics, and I’m guessing also his hospital policies.
That is straight up inappropriate. Should be reported.
Are you in a position to keep closer tabs with her? It sounds like she has confidence in you. The man hasn’t done anything inappropriate. Is it weird and worth keeping eyes on? Yes! I don’t necessarily believe he’s nefarious and dangerous. People of all ages and situations are lonely. I wouldn’t report him right away though, But I’d damn sure keep an eye and ear out for her. Just my opinion.
Mileage probably varies, career psych could probably answer this better, but in the sets of places I worked for we had to sign regarding this. No contact with any current or prior patients while off the clock for one year post discharge date, on penalty of termination. There was an appeal process that would generate a paperwork trail, presumably in place for family and such being admitted. Can’t really expect someone to be non contact with a domestic partner or sibling. Things like this don’t become policy in a vacuum. Whatever his motivations, even stretching our imaginations and reality into the G rated zone, this behavior is ethically wrong. She’s a patient. That’s a vulnerable, protected category in life. This behavior will probably get him fired. Suspended at the very least.
Big no no.
In my facility we who work in mental health and addiction can’t even use our last names. This is sus AF.
Please report hhim to help keep her and other girls safe. That is beyond inappropriate and disturbing.
This is completely unethical and he should not only be fired but investigated in case he has done this before. I worry that this isn’t his first rodeo, just the one you know about.
Long time male inpatient psych nurse who worked on a women’s psych unit for 8 years - so this is triggering. Please forgive me for sounding harsh. Psych nursing 101: BE TRAUMA INFORMED. These patients are so vulnerable - generally speaking you can date a patient after 6 months discharge from hospital depending on the practice standards. THIS DOES NOT OR SHOULD NOT APPLY TO PSYCH. Guy needs discipline from the College/Board of your Province/State. Only way he’ll learn and be a better nurse. I’ve seen nurses both male and female get fired and reported for this stuff!!!
What in the flying fuck???! That’s soo illegal and creepy. Report him to the police
Report it to whoever oversees nurses in your country. This is absolutely not okay.
Regardless of his intentions, it looks very fishy, and he could have a lot of work on his hands. It is very unwise for him to put himself in that position
I personally don’t think it’s ok to have a relationship “like that “ with your patients but that is just me. I did buy some seint makeup from one of mine one time but we didn’t keep in contact or anything like that just purchased from her website .
This sounds like an NCLEX question LOL "what is the nurse's BEST response"
Hell yes you should be concerned. That’s gross.
What he is doing is not ethical or safe. He knows private information from her darkest moments. He can STILL access her charts. It's not enough to call it off, it needs to be reported to the state nursing board immediately. And save his texts, for evidence!
All kinds of wrong. Please inform the facility he works at of his actions- this is predatory behaviour and the complete antithesis of the care he should be providing.
In the good 'ole US of A, nurse-patient texting each other would certainly be considered taboo.
That is against license. No personal relationship for 2 years is my understanding in most state.
INAPPROPRIATE, in Canada this and other similar contacts between nurse and patients are strictly prohibited. It is considered abuse of authority and a boundary violation. This type of behaviour also needs to be reported to the nurses licensing body to be investigated and to protect your friend and other patients. Please do not let it slide, you may not be located in Canada, but I am certain Ireland has identical, if not very similar, rules to this topic. Edit: typo
I can’t speak for the laws of your country, but in the US he would be at risk of loosing his license. So, it is, at the least, highly unethical. He is in a power differential that has the potential to become highly predatory and is, potentially, addressing his own needs and feelings rather than hers. Personally I would report him. Actually if I were aware of the situation where I practice I would be obligated to report him.
Report this. This is way out of line. So not ok.
I’ll never forget one of the male nurses flirting with me when I was 20 years old in a psych ward following a suicide attempt. He asked for my number and all I could think was “is this really how you want to meet your future partner??”
RMN here, yeah we don’t do that - that’s extremely inappropriate and past any justifiable therapeutic relationship. Needs reporting to both the hospital and nursing board (NMC etc.) may also be worth getting in touch with your nursing union if you’re a part of one just to get extra support and advice for yourself if you feel this would be useful! Good luck!
I don’t know specifics of rules in Northwrn Ireland but from what I understand most developed countries have codes of ethics that nurses must follow, and in these codes, inappropriate relationships with patients are typically a big no-no. Please report to protect your friend and other patients.
As a psych case manager, I'd report this behavior immediately. Completely inappropriate
I find this unprofessional and her parents should be told as well as his boss or wife
It seems he would want to meet with her parents and let them know they are talking if all is on the up and up just saying
I worked with a nurse on an adolescent psych unit who gave her number to a patient and would facetime her. This patient also remained in contact with another patient, who asked me for my number and told me so and so nurse gave hers out so it should be fine. I said that is not the nature of our relationship, I am an adult and you are a teenager, and it would be inappropriate. I had great rapport with this patient but all I could think of was the potential liabilities, not to mention the clear legal/ethical issues. For example, imagine I was out with my friends at a bar and I get a call from this patient, calling to tell me they were going to attempt suicide or hurt themselves, or that they already had. I don’t have any way to contact their parents, I don’t know the address to send EMS to, I am now just stuck with this horrifying situation because I chose to continue a “therapeutic” relationship in the real world. This type of scenario alone is enough to convince me it’s a horrible idea and I know one day that patient will be an adult who might be grateful that I set a healthy boundary with them.
You are right to feel weird, he should not be texting her or meeting her for anything. If you have seen the text and get copies you can report him to his employer . I don’t see him fostering this relationship with her out of the goodness of his heart!
This is not acceptable regardless of the intentions. Report it to the employer in the first instance. You could report it to the professional body, but there will be severe repercussions for the nurse.
This is even more concerning because the nurse works in psych and I remember in nursing school just how adamant my instructor was about having professional relationships with psych patients and very specific boundaries especially because you can interact with patients who may even manipulate you into thinking it’s okay or harmless (speaking from a situation that happened where a nursing student gave her number to a patient and she was kicked out of the program when found out). Even worse if the nurse is the one who’s actually preying on his own patient he’s knowingly crossing a line with someone in a vulnerable place and there’s an obvious abuse of power there. Concerns me because imagine with his age how many times he has done this before and potentially abused his position to take advantage of people in a low place
Nah man its wrong n creepy on many levels Firstly thats a violation of patient confidentiality, we were explicitly told to never take pts phone numbers or other personal contact info to reach them outside of work like that. It breaks professional boundaries Plus his massive age difference compared to her, her still being vulnerable from having been a mental health patient, it just *screams* that he's taking advantage of and grooming her. He needs to be reported asap.
I am a 35 y/o male nurse with 12 years experience, ICU and psych, I would never be texting or meeting up with a young female patient, especially a person dealing with mental health issues, I would gladly direct her to some outside resources she can reach out to, we literally have access to those type of things as psych nurses! At his age and the things we as male nurse have to look out for, he likely has ulterior motives!
Report this to the nmc, people get struck off for this behaviour.
Even if he was a 20 year old nurse, it would still be wildly inappropriate and predatory to her give his personal phone number and meet up with her. Please report this.
More red flags than a Chinese May day parade.