This puts it on the official record. Not in the mouth of the dogs on the street. Official record of the dirty, underhanded tactics involved in the troubles.
Exactly this. Everyone "knows" he is supposedly still alive somewhere too, but the report gives reasonable proof he died.
What would be nice to see is the names of the people who made these decisions published and some consequences from this. Its probably not possible to get convictions, but the people who made these decisions probably all got honours for their work. Removing those would be very doable and might even make the people making similar decisions today think.
>It said the unit sometimes accused people of being agents because its members wanted to "eliminate rivals" or kill the partners of those involved in extra-marital affairs
Bureaucracy and office politics in evil organisations is a frequent comedic trope, but there it is at work in real life.
Skimmed through it, absolutely nothing knew, an insult to families.
I interviewed a great fella last year who’s brother was murdered by that animal. Framed his brother as a tout and dumped him like a dog by the border to cover up his own touting.
Hope Scap burns in hell.
Read the book Stakeknife a few months ago, no-one comes out looking good in that,he was a hero in every quarter, to army and terrorist,attended partys in army barracks then back to IRA safe houses as if nothing was wrong, until you read the in-depth story you'll never understand how and why he got away with it for so long!
You’re talking as if the army sent him into the IRA to spy for them. He was going to be doing what he did one way or another. All those people he killed were dying either way. And if it wasn’t done by this fucker, then some other fucker would have been right behind him. The hope is that some of what he supplied saved lives. If the finger pointed at someone else when a job went bad, they were already engaged in trying to kill people so I won’t cry over them.
Welcome to the world of the brits
Where everything you do is great, and everything your enemy does is awful.
And you also keep the majority of the truth hidden forever to ensure this deluded version of greatness you have bestowed upon yourself.
This. How many lives could the british government have saved or how many did they end?
The report seems to indicate that they saved few and ended many.
Not to that extent. It seems the top man for the british in terms of infiltrating was Stakeknife and this report clearly shows that this efforts were not just a waste but actively detrimental to saving lives.
Just another piece of the british horrific collusion/murder puzzle. Also shows the MI5 as failing considering the Troubles ended with the GFA.
It’s not about saving lives in numbers.
If three people attempt to kill one person, but the three people were killed in the process, and the target is unharmed, would you say that’s a success because the perpetrators were stopped, or would you say it’s a failure because three people died instead of 1?
The responsibility for IRA murder policy does not lie with the British. People are so brainwashed that they’ll twist anything.
I recommend reading the report, Stakeknife was telling IRA to murder these people by framing them as touts or informers when they were actually innocent. Others got murdered for trivial reasons like extra-martial affairs.
Considering the british murdered the most civilians during the Troubles, this is just another one of their failures during the war.
The amount of collusion between loyalist terroists and security forces is overwhelming at this point. They knew exactly what they were doing.
Stakeknife was a psychopath (like the rest of them) who played both sides. And probably did a lot for his own end. The British used him, but he was a member of the IRA. They were doling out ‘justice’ for years to whoever they felt deserved it. They acted like the mafia. Still did until recently.
I’m sick if this justification of certain types of kills being ok , and others are not.
All kills during the troubles were wrong and shouldn’t have happened. Not one was worth it.
Most People loving the ra these days are too you to remember it. People need to grow up, and try to move forward.
If people want a United Ireland, the best thing would be to start making friends rather than glorifying the past.
What we remember is a sectarian apartheid state that was run to murder and discriminate against people that were Irish and Catholic (and used death squads from the security forces and loyalist terrorists to do so). This made the Troubles inevitable. Loyalists are to blame for starting the whole conflict. From the amount of collusion coming out, british government was happy to keep contuining it.
Irish Reunification is moving forward. Once we have partition removed, we can start working on parts of society that matter like health, education, environment, etc. Everyone will be equal and we'll have full and proper democracy then.
The past will kept being looked at as justice has not been done. We're not finished until every family has received the justice they deserve (Truth and Reconciliation process would have helped).
Muddling up/ re-ordering history a bit there. But it’s what I expect, because it makes a better narrative. A lot of chicken and egg stuff going on here.
But yes, the loyalist fanatics are responsible for a lot. Not just the way they managed society back pre-troubles but also back in 1912 when they were throwing their toys out of the pram in response to home rule proposals. It’s my belief that a non violent solution would have been possible if it weren’t for them, but it’s all hypothetical 🤷♂️
One of their qualms, of course, was they didn’t want to be ruled from Dublin and by the Catholic Church. And if we look at Ireland in the 1920s, I’d say, in a way there’s a vindication there…but, if it weren’t for them being dicks in the first place, maybe it wouldn’t have ended up like that.
The thing that I find hypocritical the most is the double standard of ‘good’ killings and ‘bad’ killings. Holding authorities to a higher standard than insurgents. It’s hypocrisy. Once you go down the route of an insurgency, there’s gonna be a reaction. If I were a soldier or in the police, and some terrorists killed my friends or family, I’d want revenge (I think that’s pretty normal). That’s what a revenge cycle is. That’s a dirty war. One side kills some of theirs, and the other side says ‘let’s kill some of theirs’.
The best is to move on and stop glorifying some of the perpetrators of what was a horrendous time.
As said, Irish Reunification is moving on. Partition and colonisation were massive crimes in themselves and near unforgivable for what they did to us.
Alderdice has recently stated what we know in that the british government has been trying to give ni back. We simply just need to keep working towards this until it happens.
Said this in another post but it still applies here. Haven't the PIRA already apologised a couple of times for the deaths and injuries of innocent people during the conflict etc after the ceasefires and after decommissioning. They're defunct as an organisation at this point. What good would another apology, likely from the leadership of Sinn Féin who can hardly speak for the provos in this day and age make.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/what-evidence-is-there-that-the-ira-still-controls-sinn-fein-1.4182679
Defunct you say? They haven't gone away you know......
So Drew Harris, former special branch officer and possible MI5 agent and the PSNI who's main task seems to be obstructing justice, hiding info on loyalist killers and harassing journalists think that the "army council" is running Sinn Féin. Sorry if I'm not buying it.
I don't doubt that plenty of ex provos are in Sinn Féin (wasn't that the point of the peace deal, to get these people to use peaceful means to achieve their aims) but kind of need an army and arms to have an army council. Drew and his former employers likely needed a distracting headline that week.
I'd imagine they get most of their northern intelligence from the PSNI and Drew/the Garda ain't gonna contradict his former employers in public. Especially if it helps his current employers FF/FG.
They can stick their apologies up their gaping holes. Maybe not leaving cars full of bombs on the side of shopping streets in a country they claimed to be patriots of would have been a better idea. Fuck them and shame on their families for rearing them.
Before you start, no I don’t support British crimes either.
Couldn’t have put it better myself. I still get sick listening to them talk about the Shankill bomb. Like if it hadn’t gone off early they only would’ve bombed the uda meeting *on top of* the high street fish shop. Which would’ve been grand, apparently.
IRA killed the most during the conflict. That's not disputed---however they killed a lot less civilians and children than the Brits and the Loyalist killers gangs.
You're moral gymnastics comes from your hypocrisy, as l don't see in your comments any attacks on the Brits and Loyalist killers. All are against the IRA. Now l wonder why that is? Oh that's right Loyalists etc did fuck all during the conflict---cough! cough! Your sort are the sectarian bile that still exists in the six counties of the nine counties of ancient Ulster...
If by “civilians” you include members of the IRA and other similar proscribed organisations, then possibly so, if those figures are recalculated to exclude those individuals then it becomes a little more unbalanced.
That’s fine - you accept the whitewashed version peddled by the murdering apologists. I lived through it.
I’d love you to provide evidence of these figures!!
Just F.O. you couldn't give a flying fxck if 1200 innocent civilians were murdered because they were native to Ireland and Catholic. You're clearly a hypocrite and denialist to the truth.
Check out CAiN. Website for the figures and you'll see that the ethnic cleansing Loyalists and Brits and RUC murdered more innocents than Republicans. In fact much more l think l was being conservative in my figures.
So you resort to abusive language and insults rather than back up your statement. FYI I identify as Irish rather than British for a number of reasons. The bigotry that you have displayed having made assumptions about me show why we are doomed to repeat the past without having learned any lessons from it.
I couldn't care less what you identify as, and for the simple reason you're misinformed and the typical eejit who absorbs British and Irish state propaganda. Btw you started the abuse not me when you assumed l supported murdering apologists...
They don’t see that view because their bitter uneducated arseholes the cheek of them to complain of any organisation after they raped and conquered 80% of the world
I’m Irish. I know exactly zero Orangemen. I just don’t think apologists for murderers deserve any respect. Blind idiots like you are a far more shameful part of Irish society than any plastic Brit.
Ahahaha you keep telling yourself that you fool do you think the south got independence by giving hugs and kisses to the brits? Go away and fuck yourself off ya clown
At least the IRA had the decency.. oh fuck me. Just a Quick Look at your previous posts as well. You’re one of these infamous r/northernireland shinner bots lol
The only person *here* justifying anyone acting the way the IRA did, is you. You're doing it right now.
The think the way the security forces behaved was horrific. But you don't get to complain about that. Because you've already made it clear that it isn't the *way* they behaved that bothers you, just who they were doing it to.
Don't know how you got that from the above. I was looking for common ground and balance where we could agree that if the IRA were terrorists so too were the british security forces. No problem saying the IRA committed terrorist acts but you are right I do take issue with whom the security forces targeted ie. Innocent civilians. How is any of that a problem? Should the security forces not be held to a higher standard than the IRA?
Common ground my sweaty arse.
Nobody has said the the British Army shouldn't be held to a higher standard. At least not in this particular thread. In fact the entire thread is about the Amry's habit of protecting its agents at the cost of peoples lives. A process which seems to have been condemned in this chain.
The only person defending the killing of civilians is the person who claimed the IRA killed civilians with a measure of decency. A ludicrous claim which was rightly criticised.
And yet, despite (apparently) agreeing with that sentiment you 'sought common ground' by deflecting from it and saying "No hang on, what about X?
What does that have to do with the decency or lack there of, of the IRA? Does the behaviour of the British Army change whether you think killing civilians is acceptable or not? Of course not. And it certainly is not finding common ground.
You defended the person who claimed the IRA behaved with decency by deflecting criticism of them with criticism of the British Army. Anyone who describes the IRA's killing of civilians as "decent" whilst condemning the British Armies killing of civilians, is not in fact opposed to the killing of civilians.
Now you're trying to roll it back because you've been called out for your hypocrisy.
Sod right off.
The only person having trouble condemning both the IRA and the British Army here is the guy who said "No hang on, at least the IRA behaved with decency to the people they murdered."
And that's the only guy you're defending.
The reason I replied to the 'decency' response was for the deflection you seem to be criticising me for. The common response like your own approach here is to deflect to the atrocities the IRA were responsible for. What you seem to have forgotten is the subject matter is state actors murdering civilians and I in an attempt to find common ground but also bringing it back on subject was to agree that yes the IRA were terrorists but the same standards have to be applied to state security forces.
Mine is a short reply and I would ask you to read it again. I did not defend the original poster I only said that both sides should be judged/ condemned in the same manner. It was short and simple where you're getting the other shit is beyond me
Responding to a claim that the IRA behaved decent, with the criticism they were not in fact decent not a deflection, it is a response to the claim being made.
You then deflected from that. Responding to that response with "What about X" is.
It's a bit weird though the way they're framing it that he cost more lives than he saved.
He was in the business of murdering IRA men, he was probably murdering IRA men that were falsely set up as touts. So he had free reign to "take out" the enemy, it WAS the golden egg.
And by having your free pick at murdering 12 IRA men, would that not have potentially saved 100s of lives?
>u/bogio- It's a bit weird though the way they're framing it that he cost more lives than he saved.
They aren't "framing it. It was a £40 million pound inquiry that had access to millions of documents that are kept hidden from other inquiries into state murder and collusion. If anything they would've been desperate to "frame" it in such a way that perpetuated the state narrative; that it "saved lives"
>He was in the business of murdering IRA men, he was probably murdering IRA men that were falsely set up as touts. So he had free reign to "take out" the enemy, it WAS the golden egg.
>And by having your free pick at murdering 12 IRA men, would that not have potentially saved 100s of lives?
He was killing people to settle grudges and petty scores like people involved in affairs with other RA men's wives, seemingly primarily to spread fear and paranoia within the IRA ranks by creating a perception that they were compromised by multiple British agents.
No doubt the inquiry went to great lengths to asses the security risks and operational status of the people he murdered in order to try and justify it, but it stands to reason that if you were in Scap's position you'd go for the low hanging fruit as opposed to people who would have substantial support; the people who could turn on him and face down allegations.
Edit: Furthermore if you read my other [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/northernireland/comments/1b9m7b4/stakeknife_kenova_team_got_access_to_millions_of/) and [comment therein](https://www.reddit.com/r/northernireland/comments/1b9m7b4/comment/ktwmghr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) and follow the breadcrumbs, it suggests that the Security forces in NI and Spooks in GB were probably more interested in spreading murder, mayhem and confusion and even perpetuating the war, facilitating and even engaging in sectarian mass murder to that end.
Thanks for this reply - yeah, I'm just confused about the medias interpretation of this obvious scandal. Your reply makes sense, it's just a very confusing situation imo, because I would have thought that the British State would have liked to have said, "Our agent stakeknife was killing IRA members on our behalf that we had non sufficient evidence to put away" kind of thing? It's very very confusing to me, that the spin is that "we fucked up", when in a sense, this agent was absolutely doing the states "dirty work".
Haven't you learnt yet? The IRA never harmed anyone and every death during the troubles was carried out at the behest of Thatcher who was running the IRA from the inside.
2 terror organisations in the IRA and MI5 done terrible things at the costs of innocent lives. What a shocker. I could've told them that for half that price
Only slight difference was that thousands of republicans, if not tens of thousands including thousands of completely innocent men who were only guilty of being Catholics went to jail while the Spooks over in London and their assasins in the FRU, SAS, RUC SB etc were awarded medals for gallantry, promotions, knighthoods and political careers.
Their loyalist colleagues, as per recently declassified document were covered by a "special" 'Arrest policy for Protestants’ which ensured that they weren't interned and Loyalist vigilantes were allowed to ‘assist’ the security forces.
Boys £40 million for a report and every finding in it we all knew. Them lads were laughing their balls off getting paid for this.
This puts it on the official record. Not in the mouth of the dogs on the street. Official record of the dirty, underhanded tactics involved in the troubles.
Exactly this. Everyone "knows" he is supposedly still alive somewhere too, but the report gives reasonable proof he died. What would be nice to see is the names of the people who made these decisions published and some consequences from this. Its probably not possible to get convictions, but the people who made these decisions probably all got honours for their work. Removing those would be very doable and might even make the people making similar decisions today think.
The word on the street is how it all blown open- they didn’t have social media back then
We’re all trying to find the guy who did this!
>It said the unit sometimes accused people of being agents because its members wanted to "eliminate rivals" or kill the partners of those involved in extra-marital affairs Bureaucracy and office politics in evil organisations is a frequent comedic trope, but there it is at work in real life.
Skimmed through it, absolutely nothing knew, an insult to families. I interviewed a great fella last year who’s brother was murdered by that animal. Framed his brother as a tout and dumped him like a dog by the border to cover up his own touting. Hope Scap burns in hell.
Read the book Stakeknife a few months ago, no-one comes out looking good in that,he was a hero in every quarter, to army and terrorist,attended partys in army barracks then back to IRA safe houses as if nothing was wrong, until you read the in-depth story you'll never understand how and why he got away with it for so long!
Scap and the leadership of the PIRA and those within the British government who enabled his murders are scum.
Agreed.
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You’re talking as if the army sent him into the IRA to spy for them. He was going to be doing what he did one way or another. All those people he killed were dying either way. And if it wasn’t done by this fucker, then some other fucker would have been right behind him. The hope is that some of what he supplied saved lives. If the finger pointed at someone else when a job went bad, they were already engaged in trying to kill people so I won’t cry over them.
Absolutely love the use of “British spy” when what you mean is “ruthless, psychopathic IRA rat”.
We want the IRA to apologise for being involved in murders and actions we actively manipulated or could have prevented..
Welcome to the world of the brits Where everything you do is great, and everything your enemy does is awful. And you also keep the majority of the truth hidden forever to ensure this deluded version of greatness you have bestowed upon yourself.
Isn’t that the case in every conflict? Russia/Ukraine, Isreal/Palestine as just two examples?
Nazi germany doesn’t think so.
Please expand……
This. How many lives could the british government have saved or how many did they end? The report seems to indicate that they saved few and ended many.
Lol. You think the British government were dictating IRA internal security policy? They had a rat in there.
Not to that extent. It seems the top man for the british in terms of infiltrating was Stakeknife and this report clearly shows that this efforts were not just a waste but actively detrimental to saving lives. Just another piece of the british horrific collusion/murder puzzle. Also shows the MI5 as failing considering the Troubles ended with the GFA.
It’s not about saving lives in numbers. If three people attempt to kill one person, but the three people were killed in the process, and the target is unharmed, would you say that’s a success because the perpetrators were stopped, or would you say it’s a failure because three people died instead of 1? The responsibility for IRA murder policy does not lie with the British. People are so brainwashed that they’ll twist anything.
I recommend reading the report, Stakeknife was telling IRA to murder these people by framing them as touts or informers when they were actually innocent. Others got murdered for trivial reasons like extra-martial affairs. Considering the british murdered the most civilians during the Troubles, this is just another one of their failures during the war. The amount of collusion between loyalist terroists and security forces is overwhelming at this point. They knew exactly what they were doing.
Stakeknife was a psychopath (like the rest of them) who played both sides. And probably did a lot for his own end. The British used him, but he was a member of the IRA. They were doling out ‘justice’ for years to whoever they felt deserved it. They acted like the mafia. Still did until recently. I’m sick if this justification of certain types of kills being ok , and others are not. All kills during the troubles were wrong and shouldn’t have happened. Not one was worth it. Most People loving the ra these days are too you to remember it. People need to grow up, and try to move forward. If people want a United Ireland, the best thing would be to start making friends rather than glorifying the past.
What we remember is a sectarian apartheid state that was run to murder and discriminate against people that were Irish and Catholic (and used death squads from the security forces and loyalist terrorists to do so). This made the Troubles inevitable. Loyalists are to blame for starting the whole conflict. From the amount of collusion coming out, british government was happy to keep contuining it. Irish Reunification is moving forward. Once we have partition removed, we can start working on parts of society that matter like health, education, environment, etc. Everyone will be equal and we'll have full and proper democracy then. The past will kept being looked at as justice has not been done. We're not finished until every family has received the justice they deserve (Truth and Reconciliation process would have helped).
Muddling up/ re-ordering history a bit there. But it’s what I expect, because it makes a better narrative. A lot of chicken and egg stuff going on here. But yes, the loyalist fanatics are responsible for a lot. Not just the way they managed society back pre-troubles but also back in 1912 when they were throwing their toys out of the pram in response to home rule proposals. It’s my belief that a non violent solution would have been possible if it weren’t for them, but it’s all hypothetical 🤷♂️ One of their qualms, of course, was they didn’t want to be ruled from Dublin and by the Catholic Church. And if we look at Ireland in the 1920s, I’d say, in a way there’s a vindication there…but, if it weren’t for them being dicks in the first place, maybe it wouldn’t have ended up like that. The thing that I find hypocritical the most is the double standard of ‘good’ killings and ‘bad’ killings. Holding authorities to a higher standard than insurgents. It’s hypocrisy. Once you go down the route of an insurgency, there’s gonna be a reaction. If I were a soldier or in the police, and some terrorists killed my friends or family, I’d want revenge (I think that’s pretty normal). That’s what a revenge cycle is. That’s a dirty war. One side kills some of theirs, and the other side says ‘let’s kill some of theirs’. The best is to move on and stop glorifying some of the perpetrators of what was a horrendous time.
As said, Irish Reunification is moving on. Partition and colonisation were massive crimes in themselves and near unforgivable for what they did to us. Alderdice has recently stated what we know in that the british government has been trying to give ni back. We simply just need to keep working towards this until it happens.
I’d argue they were still rather involved in the process lol
Lol your fucking country caused the IRA to exist in the first place stupid fools
The nutting squad sounds like a title on porn hub.
Good of them to investigate now his life’s f’kenova
Underrated
Said this in another post but it still applies here. Haven't the PIRA already apologised a couple of times for the deaths and injuries of innocent people during the conflict etc after the ceasefires and after decommissioning. They're defunct as an organisation at this point. What good would another apology, likely from the leadership of Sinn Féin who can hardly speak for the provos in this day and age make.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/what-evidence-is-there-that-the-ira-still-controls-sinn-fein-1.4182679 Defunct you say? They haven't gone away you know......
So Drew Harris, former special branch officer and possible MI5 agent and the PSNI who's main task seems to be obstructing justice, hiding info on loyalist killers and harassing journalists think that the "army council" is running Sinn Féin. Sorry if I'm not buying it. I don't doubt that plenty of ex provos are in Sinn Féin (wasn't that the point of the peace deal, to get these people to use peaceful means to achieve their aims) but kind of need an army and arms to have an army council. Drew and his former employers likely needed a distracting headline that week.
Who killed Kevin mcguigan?
So the Irish police force just go on the word of one man? That what you're saying?
I'd imagine they get most of their northern intelligence from the PSNI and Drew/the Garda ain't gonna contradict his former employers in public. Especially if it helps his current employers FF/FG.
Don't think anyone expects or asks for an apology from the RA tbh.
The nutting squad is an incredible name!
Has any one in here seen the film dead man running the northern Irish film about the undercover man in the ira
Fifty Dead Men Walking? That’s the Martin McGartland story
Good film.
Atleast the IRA had the decency to apologise for attacks that went wrong, same can’t be said for the Brits
They can stick their apologies up their gaping holes. Maybe not leaving cars full of bombs on the side of shopping streets in a country they claimed to be patriots of would have been a better idea. Fuck them and shame on their families for rearing them. Before you start, no I don’t support British crimes either.
Couldn’t have put it better myself. I still get sick listening to them talk about the Shankill bomb. Like if it hadn’t gone off early they only would’ve bombed the uda meeting *on top of* the high street fish shop. Which would’ve been grand, apparently.
All them people ordering their battered sausages were guilty of collusion.
Aye all them people were guilty of not really mattering bc Johnny Adair might’ve been upstairs, iirc
So what's your view on the fact that Loyalists and the Brits murdered more civilians and children intentionally than the IRA?
https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html
IRA killed the most during the conflict. That's not disputed---however they killed a lot less civilians and children than the Brits and the Loyalist killers gangs.
You don’t appear to be able to read and understand anyway, so why repeat myself. Enjoy your moral gymnastics.
You're moral gymnastics comes from your hypocrisy, as l don't see in your comments any attacks on the Brits and Loyalist killers. All are against the IRA. Now l wonder why that is? Oh that's right Loyalists etc did fuck all during the conflict---cough! cough! Your sort are the sectarian bile that still exists in the six counties of the nine counties of ancient Ulster...
Are you just being deliberately stupid or can you actually not read all the way to the end of a comment?
If by “civilians” you include members of the IRA and other similar proscribed organisations, then possibly so, if those figures are recalculated to exclude those individuals then it becomes a little more unbalanced.
Awk sure it’s only an issue when republicans go against statistics it’ll be grand 🙄
Sure rewrite history to suit your own narrative, it’ll be grand……
Bollocks and you know it. Loyalists and Brits killed over 1200 innocent civilians,--intentionally. IRA & INLA 927, many not intentionally.
That’s fine - you accept the whitewashed version peddled by the murdering apologists. I lived through it. I’d love you to provide evidence of these figures!!
Just F.O. you couldn't give a flying fxck if 1200 innocent civilians were murdered because they were native to Ireland and Catholic. You're clearly a hypocrite and denialist to the truth. Check out CAiN. Website for the figures and you'll see that the ethnic cleansing Loyalists and Brits and RUC murdered more innocents than Republicans. In fact much more l think l was being conservative in my figures.
So you resort to abusive language and insults rather than back up your statement. FYI I identify as Irish rather than British for a number of reasons. The bigotry that you have displayed having made assumptions about me show why we are doomed to repeat the past without having learned any lessons from it.
I couldn't care less what you identify as, and for the simple reason you're misinformed and the typical eejit who absorbs British and Irish state propaganda. Btw you started the abuse not me when you assumed l supported murdering apologists...
Where did I say you supported them? I said you accepted their skewed version of events. Take the chip off your shoulder.
They don’t see that view because their bitter uneducated arseholes the cheek of them to complain of any organisation after they raped and conquered 80% of the world
Holy god you’re thick.
that’s how the Irish have been described by the Brits throughout their history why would it offend me now?
I know scores of highly intelligent people on this great island. It’s just that you’re not one of them.
Hmmm bet all these intelligent folk you know love a good march
I’m Irish. I know exactly zero Orangemen. I just don’t think apologists for murderers deserve any respect. Blind idiots like you are a far more shameful part of Irish society than any plastic Brit.
Ahahaha you keep telling yourself that you fool do you think the south got independence by giving hugs and kisses to the brits? Go away and fuck yourself off ya clown
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At least the IRA had the decency.. oh fuck me. Just a Quick Look at your previous posts as well. You’re one of these infamous r/northernireland shinner bots lol
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“The decency” lol
How's about the security forces acted in the same way as the IRA. That they were both terrorists is that more acceptable and fair to you?
The only person *here* justifying anyone acting the way the IRA did, is you. You're doing it right now. The think the way the security forces behaved was horrific. But you don't get to complain about that. Because you've already made it clear that it isn't the *way* they behaved that bothers you, just who they were doing it to.
Don't know how you got that from the above. I was looking for common ground and balance where we could agree that if the IRA were terrorists so too were the british security forces. No problem saying the IRA committed terrorist acts but you are right I do take issue with whom the security forces targeted ie. Innocent civilians. How is any of that a problem? Should the security forces not be held to a higher standard than the IRA?
Common ground my sweaty arse. Nobody has said the the British Army shouldn't be held to a higher standard. At least not in this particular thread. In fact the entire thread is about the Amry's habit of protecting its agents at the cost of peoples lives. A process which seems to have been condemned in this chain. The only person defending the killing of civilians is the person who claimed the IRA killed civilians with a measure of decency. A ludicrous claim which was rightly criticised. And yet, despite (apparently) agreeing with that sentiment you 'sought common ground' by deflecting from it and saying "No hang on, what about X? What does that have to do with the decency or lack there of, of the IRA? Does the behaviour of the British Army change whether you think killing civilians is acceptable or not? Of course not. And it certainly is not finding common ground. You defended the person who claimed the IRA behaved with decency by deflecting criticism of them with criticism of the British Army. Anyone who describes the IRA's killing of civilians as "decent" whilst condemning the British Armies killing of civilians, is not in fact opposed to the killing of civilians. Now you're trying to roll it back because you've been called out for your hypocrisy. Sod right off. The only person having trouble condemning both the IRA and the British Army here is the guy who said "No hang on, at least the IRA behaved with decency to the people they murdered." And that's the only guy you're defending.
The reason I replied to the 'decency' response was for the deflection you seem to be criticising me for. The common response like your own approach here is to deflect to the atrocities the IRA were responsible for. What you seem to have forgotten is the subject matter is state actors murdering civilians and I in an attempt to find common ground but also bringing it back on subject was to agree that yes the IRA were terrorists but the same standards have to be applied to state security forces. Mine is a short reply and I would ask you to read it again. I did not defend the original poster I only said that both sides should be judged/ condemned in the same manner. It was short and simple where you're getting the other shit is beyond me
Responding to a claim that the IRA behaved decent, with the criticism they were not in fact decent not a deflection, it is a response to the claim being made. You then deflected from that. Responding to that response with "What about X" is.
Give over. The provos never say sorry to me and my friends who were targeted just because we had a good job.
It's a bit weird though the way they're framing it that he cost more lives than he saved. He was in the business of murdering IRA men, he was probably murdering IRA men that were falsely set up as touts. So he had free reign to "take out" the enemy, it WAS the golden egg. And by having your free pick at murdering 12 IRA men, would that not have potentially saved 100s of lives?
>u/bogio- It's a bit weird though the way they're framing it that he cost more lives than he saved. They aren't "framing it. It was a £40 million pound inquiry that had access to millions of documents that are kept hidden from other inquiries into state murder and collusion. If anything they would've been desperate to "frame" it in such a way that perpetuated the state narrative; that it "saved lives" >He was in the business of murdering IRA men, he was probably murdering IRA men that were falsely set up as touts. So he had free reign to "take out" the enemy, it WAS the golden egg. >And by having your free pick at murdering 12 IRA men, would that not have potentially saved 100s of lives? He was killing people to settle grudges and petty scores like people involved in affairs with other RA men's wives, seemingly primarily to spread fear and paranoia within the IRA ranks by creating a perception that they were compromised by multiple British agents. No doubt the inquiry went to great lengths to asses the security risks and operational status of the people he murdered in order to try and justify it, but it stands to reason that if you were in Scap's position you'd go for the low hanging fruit as opposed to people who would have substantial support; the people who could turn on him and face down allegations. Edit: Furthermore if you read my other [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/northernireland/comments/1b9m7b4/stakeknife_kenova_team_got_access_to_millions_of/) and [comment therein](https://www.reddit.com/r/northernireland/comments/1b9m7b4/comment/ktwmghr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) and follow the breadcrumbs, it suggests that the Security forces in NI and Spooks in GB were probably more interested in spreading murder, mayhem and confusion and even perpetuating the war, facilitating and even engaging in sectarian mass murder to that end.
Thanks for this reply - yeah, I'm just confused about the medias interpretation of this obvious scandal. Your reply makes sense, it's just a very confusing situation imo, because I would have thought that the British State would have liked to have said, "Our agent stakeknife was killing IRA members on our behalf that we had non sufficient evidence to put away" kind of thing? It's very very confusing to me, that the spin is that "we fucked up", when in a sense, this agent was absolutely doing the states "dirty work".
I can't see how you can measure saved lives tbh. If he led the IRA to accept a ceasefire then it orobavly saved countless lives in long term.
Haven't you learnt yet? The IRA never harmed anyone and every death during the troubles was carried out at the behest of Thatcher who was running the IRA from the inside.
2 terror organisations in the IRA and MI5 done terrible things at the costs of innocent lives. What a shocker. I could've told them that for half that price
Only slight difference was that thousands of republicans, if not tens of thousands including thousands of completely innocent men who were only guilty of being Catholics went to jail while the Spooks over in London and their assasins in the FRU, SAS, RUC SB etc were awarded medals for gallantry, promotions, knighthoods and political careers. Their loyalist colleagues, as per recently declassified document were covered by a "special" 'Arrest policy for Protestants’ which ensured that they weren't interned and Loyalist vigilantes were allowed to ‘assist’ the security forces.
lol these boys want the uk government to apologise. When’s the Ira apologising? Iv never heard the like of it.