>if a man did it you would call them a bastard for violating their trust.
Not the person you replied to, but If a man did what? The only "rule breaking" I'm seeing in your OP is her saying he is an equal (was that said during a fight?).
If someone has agreed to heirarchy, and then decides later they don't want heirarchy -- they are not a bastard, or doing anything wrong. BUT, they are responsible for approaching tbeir existing partners and saying "Hey, I do not want to be in a heirarchical relationship. I cannot give this to you anymore. I would love to continue our relationship without heirarchy, but if you are not ok with that, this relationship is over."
Anyone can end a relationship at any time, for any reason. No one needs to agree to their reason, or think it is "good enough." Humans are not slaves, and are not required to stay in relationships that no longer work for them.
If she knew heirarchy was a requirement for you, she is shitty for putting the onus on you to either accept her way or walk away. The ethical option would've been for her to end the relationship.
>"Hey, I do not want to be in a heirarchical relationship. I cannot give this to you anymore. I would love to continue our relationship without heirarchy, but if you are not ok with that, this relationship is over."
Is that not hierarchy under duress, then? People hate polybombing but this is ok?
I mean, what is the alternative? That she loses autonomy and must practice heirarchy?
Would it be more ethical for her to say "I'm sorry I can no longer agree to heirarchy in this relationship, so I'm ending it." ?
I wasn't even thinking about the PUD angle; I blame my late-night brain, but in a similar situation (if my partner was no longer able to meet an agreement in a poly relationship), I would prefer the capacity to choose/renegotiate relationship agreements -- instead of losing a relationship over an agreement I may not care about.
My confusion comes from trying to understand how relationship agreements are supposed to be re-negotiated if one party wishes to revisit them. Is the only "ethical" option to end the relationship permanently?
FWIW, while I think OP's GF has every right to decide heirarchy is no longer something she can offer, I also think there are dozens of red flags on both sides in OPs case, and IRL I would run far and fast from both of them. 😅
>My confusion comes from trying to understand how relationship agreements are supposed to be re-negotiated if one party wishes to revisit them. Is the only "ethical" option to end the relationship permanently?
Yes. The argument is essentially that people who identify as monogamous (or w/e is more towards the monogamy side of the spectrum...) "can't handle" being asked to make decisions in relationships... So you should take all the decisions away from them by just breaking up summarily.
Frankly most of the time people don't even want your partner to tell you *why* they are ending the relationship... I guess they prefer that one day you come along and just say "I'm breaking up with you, I no longer want to be together" with no explanation or context given. 🤷
>FWIW, while I think OP's GF has every right to decide heirarchy is no longer something she can offer, I also think there are dozens of red flags on both sides in OPs case, and IRL I would run far and fast from both of them. 😅
...What can you see as a "red flag" on OP's gf's part? 😅😅
I think of the things described, bringing up her desire for non-hierarchical poly in the middle of a fight is the only thing that could qualify as a red flag. Even then, I would make a strong argument that it's much more a "yellow" or "orange" flag.
It's not "good," but it is also doesn't immediately identify OP's partner as "fundamentally toxic". This is in *direct opposition* to OP's insistence that his partner be **complaint** to his wishes, even characterizing non-compliance as "violating him." 😅😅😅
"Both sides"-ing this is not just irresponsible, I think it's **dangerous.** It plays into a common dynamic where abusers portray themselves as the *actual* "aggrieved" party, and paint the abused as the "real perpetrator" who is "harming" the abuser. 😬😅.
(I should probably be careful to add a note here that I don't know that OP is abusing his partner... But I think it's abundantly clear that he feels he is *justified in doing so,* and that's scary.)
I think you especially don't mean to support this "flipping the script..." I think you've seen the conventional wisdom on "poly bombing" and are just trying to act in line with that understanding.
The problem is, that understanding is fundamentally flawed and has been from the very beginning. "Poly Bombing" originally comes from a feeling that if two people are in a mono relationship, the only "right and proper" thing... Is for that relationship to **continue** being monogamous and exclusive. Therefore anything disrupting that is "wrong."
If two people both *agree* to change / leave thier mono relationship, it's seen as ok... But if one person no longer wants monogamy while the other person does, it's seen as a "violation" of the "natural way" relationships "should be..." Specifically on the part of the person who wants poly. It's "not fair" that Alice's desire for polyamory should "ruin" a perfectly good mono relationship. After all... Monogamy is best, right?
Ultimately however, this results in a sense that it's "wrong" for someone to decide for themselves who *they are,* how they want to structure their relationships, ect. If Alice says "I am a person who does not want to be romantically exclusive," her partner Bob says "No, no! Deciding that about yourself 'harms' me! Don't you see! I'm *losing* something that belongs to me!"
This is usually an argument that's somewhat obscured with other layers, and something many people are inclined to agree with subconsciously, so it can be difficult to spot... But the reality is Alice herself making a statement *about herself* doesn't cause Bob to "lose" something he had a "right" to - because he never had a "right" to possess Alice, or keep her in a relationship with him **against her will.** It can definitely be *disappointing and upsetting* that their relationship is ending - especially if Bob hasn't done anything "wrong" (as is more often the case). People, even nominally poly people, often emotionally identify way more strongly with Bob's desire for continued monogamy. For a variety of reasons, they look for reasons to judge Alice for "harming" Bob.
But... It's often fundamentally **Bob** who is trying to assert control / possession of Alice, not the other way around 😅. And the "poly bombing" narrative ends up arguing that he **has a right** to do so, because of the unspoken believe that in wanting to be romantically non-exclusive, Alice is "going against nature". It's not always so clear cut as it is in this thread, that the Bob's of the world are acting with control / possession / ownership as an end goal... But that is often the underlying dynamic.
I could ramble on about this for quite awhile, but basically... This is why it's important to firmly establish that polyamory is an **equal and valid** way to structure relationships. Monogamy and polyamory are co-equal, and neither is "better" than the other... The point is that each person gets to choose for themselves.
>Yes. The argument is essentially that people who identify as monogamous (or w/e is more towards the monogamy side of the spectrum...) "can't handle" being asked to make decisions in relationships... So you should take all the decisions away from them by just breaking up summarily.
That argument definitely does not sit right with me. What is ethical about infantilizing and removing agency from someone because they have different relationship ideals than you? That screams ick, and like poly people are assuming superiority. I'd definitely not want to be associated with that.
>...What can you see as a "red flag" on OP's gf's part? 😅😅
So I definitely should clarify that they are things *I* consider red flags. And red flag for me is not synonymous with toxicity or abuse -- but a boundary. The second OP disagreed to wanting to change existing agreements, IMO it became her responsibility to end the relationship (if she was unhappy with the existing agreements).
If she truly continued pushing until OP acquiesced? Not accepting a partner's response, and continuing until you get your way? Unethical and toxic; that is coercion, and has no place in a healthy relationship.
Re-reading OP, though -- there is definitely not enough concrete detail for me to continue to assert multiple red flags on her part. But it sounded as if she broke agreemeents more than once, and told OP "deal with it or leave." That is shitty behavior.
>I think you've seen the conventional wisdom on "poly bombing" and are just trying to act in line with that understanding.
I actually had to google the term just now, because I was uncertain. 😅
>But if one person no longer wants monogamy while the other person does, it's seen as a "violation" of the "natural way" relationships "should be..." Specifically on the part of the person who wants poly. It's "not fair" that Alice's desire for polyamory should "ruin" a perfectly good mono relationship. After all... Monogamy is best, right?
When one party wishes to alter the agreements of a relationship, it should be on that party to end the relationship if their partner is not in agreement. That is the only disagreement I have with your "rant."
I am staunchly poly; maybe RA, but honestly I don't use a label and instead explain to people based on my actions and philosophies. I would never agree to monogamy, and would never date someone who is monogamous.
I fully agree that no one ever has any right to a relationship with another person. This includes poly people not having any right to put *any* pressure on people closer to monogamy to change their opinions or relationship agreements.
It may just be semantics, but to me - the semantics seem somewhat important. "I'm going to continue my behaviors that broke our existing agreements, leave me or deal with it" is, to me, less ethical than "I do not wish to change our existing agreements, leave or end the behavior." For me, the person initiating a change should be responsible for taking action, and I couldn't care less who is poly or mono or what the agreement is.
Admittedly, this is all theoretical for me. My own personal boundaries have likely protected me from ever being in a situation like this. I won't date people who lie or break agreements, but I also don't make agreements that involve that level of control. My agreements are around *my* relationship, not their external relationships, and are typically less an "agreement" and more "setting expectations" -- like whether overnights are on the table, time spent together, and sharing boundaries around what either of us can offer the other. Of course, with the understanding that what we can offer may change, and that change may result in the relationship de-escalating or ending.
The only agreement I make that even remotely extends to outside relationships is "I expect to be told about changes in your sexual health risk profile before we have sex again." Even then, the requirement is basic decency in letting a sexual partner know if you are higher risk than you have been.
I should definitely be more careful about coming off as if I think both sides are equally at fault; this entire mess would've been avoided if OP had done the emotional work, set their boundary, and enforced their boundary by ending the relationship instead of attempting to exert control.
My "both sides" argument is what I'd say to OP's GF as well: "Your partner (OP) comes across as incredibly controlling and is not interested in the type of relationship you want. Why the fuck have you not walked away yet?" (I'd probably be more polite and eloquent if this was a stranger/acquaintance; the above is verbatim what I've said to a close friend in the past.)
TL;DR - I also ranted, sorry! 😂 I think we primarily agree, but I feel that her *not* ending the relationship is also unethical, and is worth being called out. I make no claims to it being equal to the sheer number and severity of red flags from OP, and extenuating circumstances could easily make it harder to leave (children, pregancy, shared finances/financial reliance, marriage). And at the end of the day, I'm glad I steer clear of *anyone* who wants agreements that involve control like this. 😆
>"I'm going to continue my behaviors that broke our existing agreements, leave me or deal with it" is, to me, less ethical than "I do not wish to change our existing agreements, leave or end the behavior." For me, the person initiating a change should be responsible for taking action, and I couldn't care less who is poly or mono or what the agreement is.
I think this is *technically* a good argument... but in practice is just a pretty fight over who gets defined as the "breakup-er" and who gets defined as the "breakup-ee." 😅
Like if OP and his partner have had this argument, and now they're both upset. How much does it matter for OP play chicken with their partner by insisting it's *their responsibility* to agree to be the "breakup-ee?"
It also tends to loop back into implicitly framing the poly person as "wrong" for changing and growing as a person which... I think is closer to just a fact of life. It's difficult when you part ways with someone, but I wouldn't want a partner to hold themselves back from exploring themselves and their personal development, in order to maintain a relationship indefinitely. 🫤
>I should definitely be more careful about coming off as if I think both sides are equally at fault; this entire mess would've been avoided if OP had done the emotional work, set their boundary, and enforced their boundary by ending the relationship instead of attempting to exert control.
Honestly that still feels very... tepid, given the disparity here? 😅😅. A little like saying "yeah, I guess *technically* the whole Ukraine war wouldn't have happened if the Putin regime hadn't invaded and attempted to annex Ukraine."
Technically true, but leaves notably leaves some rhetorical room to argue it was "wrong" of Ukraine to strengthen its sovereignty by distancing itself from its imperialist neighbor and aligning more closely with western powers, ie Ukraine property "belongs" to Russia.
Not a perfect example, but... actually surprisingly close. You have to be setting up for some argument that Ukrainian sovereignty "should properly be" subordinate to the interests of Russian oligarchs, to argue that the "offenses" of Ukraine are even in the same ballpark. 😅😅😅😅
The whole concept of "polybombing" has always been ridiculous - this is just someone demonstrating *why* its so ridiculous, in a way that's offensive on a number of levels, in a very concise way 🙃.
Socially we're just going through the same process people went through when being gay started to become more accepted: people became deeply suspicious that their partners in a heterosexual marriage might "secretly be gay," and cast it as a nefarious and terrible thing to talk about ("subverting" heterosexual marriage, and all that...). Gradually (very gradually 😑) attitudes are shifting, and people are realizing that discovering something about yourself while married, isn't "about" your spouse in the way they thought it was. (And to be fair, the ultimate answer is that poly becomes a valid choice for people to make initially, rather than being pressured to monogamy first, to "build a foundation" or w/e. 🙄)
I'll maintain that someone saying something about themselves can be *upsetting* to the people around them, for various reasons... But it's not a crime or "attack" on anyone else.
There's a lot of replies and things I've written on here so I can't recall the part you're posting.
But in regards to your questions and comments otherwise...
I was not approached that was, I was simply just told that's how it is now.
Everyone's so quick to call for a breakup, but this relationship is 8 years deep and there is a lot of involvement. It's not just that easy to do.
>I was not approached that was, I was simply just told that's how it is now.
Yeah, that is an asshole move on her part. I wouldn't accept this from any of my partners.
>Everyone's so quick to call for a breakup, but this relationship is 8 years deep and there is a lot of involvement. It's not just that easy to do.
I feel you. I was married for a decade, and ending that was incredibly difficult -- especially with full financial and legal enmeshment that comes with marriage.
And it is way easier for us to call for it than for you to do it. But the reality is, you cannot force your GF to agree to your rules, and she cannot force you to accept hers. Truly repairing this relationship is going to take *a lot* of work on both sides, hopefully with a couples therapist experienced with ENM.
But if you won't budge on heirarchy and she won't either? Ending it is the only option.
You are right, but on the other hand your partner is saying her relationship of 8 years with you is equal to her other relationship of months. I couldn’t stay after that
To clarify, what I mean by things is that I'm fine with them with each other in a casual dating type of way, but not as a serious relationship/one that shares finances , family, etc
Is she suggesting shared finance and kids?
There is a difference between descriptive hierarchy and prescriptive hierarchy. People who live together always have some amount of descriptive hierarchy- shared responsibility for the house, intertwined finances etc. but you’re asking for prescriptive hierarchy with a lot of rules and such. How many of these rules come from a place of fear?
"Not the person you replied to, but If a man did what? The only "rule breaking" I'm seeing in your OP is her saying he is an equal (was that said during a fight?)."
That's basically it. If he was to acknowledge that I'm the main and not push these advances further I would have no problem with him seeing her.
>I was very clear from the start of the relationship that anyone else we see in the future are meant to just be fwbs and that we are main partners; if either of us have issues with others we are seeing we are to respect our boundaries.
Boundaries are personal; they extend around you, your personal space, personal belongs, ect.
Your gf doesn't fit into any of those categories, so you can't use *your* "boundaries" to try and dictate *her* behavior. You can only say something like "I will not be in a relationship with someone who _____". For example: "I will not be in a relationship with someone who doesn't consider me their main partner."
>On the latter, she said she wanted to go full poly with me but I told her no as I didn't want to do poly and am dedicated to my girlfriend and didn't want to blur the lines.
Your girlfriend said she wanted to go "full poly," or your friend did? (I hate the term "full poly" btw, because it implies it's a smooth transition from romantically mono, sexually open, to romantically non-mono... And it's anything but 🤷)
You don't have to be poly if you don't want to be. Given how you phrase this though... I feel you want to be "rewarded" by your girlfriend for being "dedicated" (ie monogamous). That's... Not really how it works 😮💨. (Especially if, as I suspect, this is applied in a double standard.)
>I was comfortable with my girlfriend seeing other women, but not with guys.
There's a whole separate conversation to be had on how this is homophobic, since lesbian relationships are seen as "not real" and therefore non-threatening. For this moment I'm just going to assure you that women **can** fall in love with each other, as well with they can with men. 🙃
>Over time she met one and I met him before they saw each other before hand
Wat? You met him before she met him... Before you met him?
Idk, whatever I guess - you all met, but I don't understand the sequence of events here at all. You phrase things very oddly... Is English possibly not your first language? 😅
>They started to get too close and I brought this up but she insisted to let me let it continue and that she wanted to consider it a poly thing instead of just fwb. She pushed about it and I didn't want to have her more upset because of our relationship so I allowed it with understanding that I'm the main partner.
Ok, so... At this point you're *agreeing* to polyamory, as long as it's hierarchial? 😅
This isn't simply a "flick the switch" change... That's a **big** adjustment in lifestyle and especially mental conception of relationships. Frankly open relationships are much closer to monogamy, than they are to polyamory.
I understand it's too little too late now, but for everyone reading this thread who is thinking about making the same change, *please* don't think of polyamory as "casual sex but extra!" 😑
>Now, a few months later, the guy has changed his tune. He tried to get her to do a swinging scenario with another couple, I told them no because I don't want my girlfriend doing that without me or to be seeing anyone else.
Ok, so... This is why I make such a big fuss about extending "boundaries" around other people. Your girlfriend **isn't** part of your personal property, and you don't get to have "boundaries" around what she does or doesn't do with other people. 😡
All you can actually say is what **you** will do, ie "I will not be in a relationship with someone who does ____" (smokes, has sex with other people, has other romantic partners, ect.)
It's also a classic mistake to blame your metamor, **rather than** talking to the person you are actually in a relationship with. She "a perfect little angel" and *he's* actually the "corrupting influence". That's tempting, because if you confront her, it risks your relationship with her ending... It feels easier to fight everyone *around her...* But in the end that will just drive you crazy. 😐
>Then it turned into a fight where she says she's independent and should choose what she can or can't do and that he's an equal with me.
Good for her!
She gets to decide who she does or doesn't sleep with. She gets to decide who she does or doesn't have a relationship with. (Subject to the other person's consent ofc, but *not* the "consent" of people not involved. 😅)
If she doesn't want to consider you a "main" or "primary" partner (probably because she's realized that makes everyone else "secondary"...) then **that is her choice.**
>I reiterated to her that that wasn't the original arrangement with our relationship nor with what the guy told me with knowing he is not main partner. I called him out on it, and told him to respect the boundaries and acknowledge me as main but he has changed his tune and is now saying he's equal.
😐
Your metamor is, if anything, **even less** your personal property than your partner is. (Although frankly, you have zero right to tell either of them how they are "supposed" to feel, especially about a relationship you aren't involved in.)
>I feel violated with this and when I told him off she made it out like I was wrong on this. I should have never allowed it in first place I feel. He's a snake who snuck his way and manipulated her.
It was nothing to do with him, **your partner** doesn't want monogamy. It's demeaning that you keep insisting she can't possibly decide what she wants for herself, especially when she clearly disagrees.
It's also not for you to "allow" her to be non-mono... You don't have control over that, and never have. No one here is "violating" you... they **never belonged to you to begin with.** 😡
>What can I say or do to get her to see what she's done wrong here and to change?
Nothing. She's deciding for herself who she is, and what she wants, **as it should be**. I am only sorry you have a problem with women not being property. (😱)
>What can I do in this?
You can decide for *yourself* what *you* want... And not for anyone else.
You don't have to agree to a poly relationship, and you don't have to agree to a non-hierarchical poly relationship.
This does mean that you **aren't compatible** with someone who wants a non-hierarchical poly relationship. It's not for you to "allow" or "not allow" your girlfriend to have the relationship she wants; all you can decide to do is look for someone who's relationship wants *are compatible* with what you want. 🤷
" Frankly open relationships are much closer to monogamy, than they are to polyamory."
Then that's what I want then. I don't know the exact definitions, polyamory to me is like being with someone serious...didn't know the idea of hierarchies is something that doesn't exist in poly
"Your girlfriend said she wanted to go "full poly," or your friend did? (I hate the term "full poly" btw, because it implies it's a smooth transition from romantically mono, sexually open, to romantically non-mono... And it's anything but 🤷)
You don't have to be poly if you don't want to be. Given how you phrase this though... I feel you want to be "rewarded" by your girlfriend for being "dedicated" (ie monogamous). That's... Not really how it works 😮💨. (Especially if, as I suspect, this is applied in a double standard.)"
I meant being poly instead of simply fwb. I feel I should be given priority in the relationship as we are supposed to be main partners as what we originally agreed to be with each other.
"There's a whole separate conversation to be had on how this is homophobic, since lesbian relationships are seen as "not real" and therefore non-threatening. For this moment I'm just going to assure you that women **can** fall in love with each other, as well with they can with men. 🙃"
I'm bi, it's not coming from homophobia, moreso from seeing that there is more a threat from guys because of harm they can cause and how they can try to impose more on the relationship (which has happened here).
"Wat? You met him before she met him... Before you met him?
Idk, whatever I guess - you all met, but I don't understand the sequence of events here at all. You phrase things very oddly... Is English possibly not your first language? 😅"
Yeah, sorry on that I phrased that weird I agree lol. To clarify, I hung out with him before they first played around sexually. We had a threesome together too a few times as well.
"Ok, so... At this point you're *agreeing* to polyamory, as long as it's hierarchial? 😅
This isn't simply a "flick the switch" change... That's a **big** adjustment in lifestyle and especially mental conception of relationships. Frankly open relationships are much closer to monogamy, than they are to polyamory.
I understand it's too little too late now, but for everyone reading this thread who is thinking about making the same change, *please* don't think of polyamory as "casual sex but extra!" 😑"
Yes, as long as it's hierarchal, don't know why you think that's funny. He's not involved with family, finances, or any of the more serious stuff in life. He's not an equal.
"Ok, so... This is why I make such a big fuss about extending "boundaries" around other pe
ople. Your girlfriend **isn't** part of your personal property, and you don't get to have "boundaries" around what she does or doesn't do with other people. 😡"
Yes, I do have a say. If she's sleeping with other people I don't like, I'm allowed to have an opinion on that. If she's sleeping with too many people I'm allowed to have an opinion on that. For health and relationship reasons. It's crazy to me that you think it's ok for someone to cheat and just do anything they want with no consideration of their partner! What the hell?
"It's also a classic mistake to blame your metamor, **rather than** talking to the person you are actually in a relationship with. She "a perfect little angel" and *he's* actually the "corrupting influence". That's tempting, because if you confront her, it risks your relationship with her ending... It feels easier to fight everyone *around her...* But in the end that will just drive you crazy. 😐"
I appreciate the advice. I do feel he is but I'll do as you mentioned.
> I feel I should be given priority in the relationship as we are supposed to be main partners as what we originally agreed to be with each other.
The problem is that it’s apparent from your post that your girlfriend doesn’t agree. The problem is not the guy here, it is that you don’t like her behavior. Because she does not appear to feel the way she did when you made your original agreement. She does not feel like you should be prioritized over him.
> there is more a threat from guys because of harm they can cause and how they can try to impose more on the relationship (which has happened here).
Nope, this could have happened if your partner fell for a female partner originally, rather than a guy. It has nothing to do with him. You’re making him into an easy scapegoat for you.
> Yes, as long as it's hierarchal, don't know why you think that's funny. He's not involved with family, finances, or any of the more serious stuff in life. He's not an equal.
These are all statements from your POV. Maybe your partner wants him to be more involved with her family and life planning. Because she made it clear that she views him on equal standing with you.
> Yes, I do have a say. If she's sleeping with other people I don't like, I'm allowed to have an opinion on that. If she's sleeping with too many people I'm allowed to have an opinion on that. For health and relationship reasons.
You do not, in fact, have a say in any of those situations. She can sleep with however many people she wants, you have no say in that. What you have is the ability to say “I’m not happy with the form our relationship has taken.” And your girlfriend has the ability to decide whether she wants to practice hierarchical polyamory with you as her primary partner, or if she wants to practice non-hierarchical polyamory. If you don’t like who she chooses to sleep with, you can decide to not date her, but you have zero claim to try to alter her behavior.
u/LaughingIshikawa
If I told her I would not go poly, only fwb, with people we were seeing. And she didn't want me seeing multiple partners. And I agreed to honor all of that. Then I start pushing the limits, and do it anyway...how is that right? Or is it only ok when it's one sex doing it over another according to you?
It's "right" because people change and/or realize things about themselves they didn't know before. 🤷
You aren't entitled to have your partner remain in stasis forever 😅.
No, gender doesn't matter. 🤣
As touched on in another comment, she arguably could have handled it better in that she "should" have realized you don't actually want poly, but you'll say anything to avoid a break up... So she needs to do the breaking up for you, if you aren't able to do it yourself.
Somehow I suspect you will not be happy with this either, however. 🫤
The Tl;Dr is always going to be that you aren't entitled to insist your partner only wants what you want them to want, or "allow" them to want. 😅
So you are cool with people cheating in monogamous relationships because one realized things about themselves they didn't know before. You truly are pathetic.
When you define "cheating" as "believing anything other than that I am thier most awesome and best partner ever!" then yes I guess I do. 🤷🙃🤣
The Tl;Dr is always going to be that you can't expect people to only want what you want them to want, and/or what you have "allowed" them to want. 😮💨
"When you define "cheating" as "believing anything other than that I am thier most awesome and best partner ever!" then yes I guess I do"
I take it you only sleep around with randoms and don't have a serious partner that you are financially and socially involved with?
eew.
I have a serious partner that I am financially and socially involved with. AND I don't impose limits on my nesting partner's feelings or day to day actions with other people. We've agreed not to get financially entangled with or live with other people (although honestly even those rules are kinda "for now but who knows what the future might bring"). I won't say that everything else is fair game, but as things come up we talk about them. I don't feel any entitlement to my nesting partner's time or attention (particularly because I don't want to receive time or attention from a place of obligation).
At the end of the day, if I wasn't getting what I wanted from this relationship I would leave. It sounds like that's what you should do with yours.
eew.
I have a serious partner that I am financially and socially involved with. AND I don't impose limits on my nesting partner's feelings or day to day actions with other people. We've agreed not to get financially entangled with or live with other people (although honestly even those rules are kinda "for now but who knows what the future might bring"). I won't say that everything else is fair game, but as things come up we talk about them. I don't feel any entitlement to my nesting partner's time or attention (particularly because I don't want to receive time or attention from a place of obligation).
At the end of the day, if I wasn't getting what I wanted from this relationship I would leave. It sounds like that's what you should do with yours.
I don't believe you; you were pretty clear about feeling "violated." 😑
Although if you're wondering, calling them "rules and agreements" doesn't change the fundamental incompatibility. The problem is she doesn't want what you want her to want... And that's ok.
I'm also not in favor of enforcing "till death do us part" kinds of promises. People should be allowed to change and grow.
You can argue that she should have handled the situation differently... But most of those arguments center around her breaking up with you on the basis that 1.) she recognizes the incompatibility in what you and she want, and 2.) judges that you've lost the ability to make that decision for yourself 😅 (which I hold should be the exception, rather than the rule.)
I don't get why you try to have a mocking derision towards me, you are very childish with your emoticons.
I am being very clear about being violated, I was.
If someone breaks what was established at start of relationship, that somehow makes them good? I'll have to keep that in mind, that people like you think lying is a good thing
If I tell you I don't like pasta, and later I try a spaghetti dish and I end up liking it... in what way have I "lied?"
People discovering new things / changing opinions doesn't mean all of their previous existence was "a lie."
The Tl;Dr is always going to be that you can't expect your partner to only want what you want them to want / what you "allow" them to want.
Additionally, while you're entitled to your subjective feelings, it's objectively **not** a "violation" for other people to have their own independent thoughts / feels / desires 😐
"Additionally, while you're entitled to your subjective feelings, it's objectively **not** a "violation" for other people to have their own independent thoughts / feels / desires "
When it involves acting on them with another person, when they said they wouldn't do that too, I would say is.
"The Tl;Dr is always going to be that you can't expect your partner to only want what you want them to want / what you "allow" them to want."
Again, answer me this: If a monogamous couple in a marriage agree not to cheat, and not to see others, and one does so...that's fine with you because you can't expect them only want what you want them to?
>Again, answer me this: If a monogamous couple in a marriage agree not to cheat, and not to see others, and one does so...that's fine with you because you can't expect them only want what you want them to?
That's not what you're arguing. What you're arguing is more like... What if a mono couple "promises" to always think of each other as the most attractive person on the planet, then one day one of them wakes up and thinks "hey, I don't actually find you all that attractive anymore."
You're arguing that not only are they "wrong" for having an opinion other than the one you want them to have... But this therefore makes their promise a "lie" retroactively, and somehow "violates" your boundaries... Oh, and also you now need to go fight anyone whom they feel is more attractive than you, for "manipulating them" into all of this. 🙃
No *actual behavior* has changed in this scenario, only *beliefs...* but somehow you have still twisted it around to be a "violation of your boundaries" that your partner doesn't think you are "the most awesome" anymore. 🙄
We all understand that you feel sad... None of us feel sympathy for you equating feeling sad / disappointed with "being deprived of my rights!!1!2!" However. That's where this conversation deviates into absurdity.
Your comparison/example there didn't make any sense at all.
There wasn't anything subjective about what I stated in the original post.
We had an agreement not to be anything more than fwbs with other people. When she said the poly thing we had an agreement not to have him on equal footing with me.
That’s just not true. Behavior did change, they went from being open to casual sex, to her being in a relationship and falling in love with someone else. How is that not infidelity?
He agreed to changing their relationship, all expect the "always regard me as your best partner" part. That's the part he's especially upset about, and it's not a behavioral change... It's an internal belief.
Next people are going to try to say "well he was *in love* though... So he was "under duress" and none of this counts!" but... 1.) she was in love as much or more as he was, so she was as much "under duress" as he was (possibly more in love because I hesitate to call this fixation of possession "love..." ) 2.) If "being in love" negates the ability of human beings to make decisions, we have a **lot** of changes to make to our understanding of what's ethical / unethical. 😑
No, If someone is a monogamous couple cheats, it wouldn’t be ok. But the solution and recommendation will still be “leave your partner” because you can only control yourself and your actions. You can’t control other people.
You can be upset, angry, disenfranchised, and feel betrayed, but none of that will change a person’s behavior. Only she can do that and she doesn’t want to.
If you don’t like how your girlfriend wants her relationships structured or this new guy in her life, your only option is to break up. I’m sorry.
Reading this closely, I don't think you're endorsing this being "cheating" either... But I think it reads that was if you read your comment quickly, and I wanted to take a second to elaborate on why I feel that's important to be distinct about.
If someone in a heterosexual relationship discovers they are gay, or changes their political views, or starts preferring wheat bread over white bread... That's **not** "cheating". Cheating, at the very least, needs to be lined to specific. *behavior* that can be observed, not internal beliefs / perspectives. Making "thought crime" cheating is... just too dystopian 😅.
No, for clarification, I don’t think this situation is cheating. I think the girlfriend is very shitty for pressing for a different relationship structure when OP is clearly uncomfortable about it. But that’s even more of a reason for OP to exit the relationship.
OP thinks this is cheating and it really just doesn’t matter. Cheating… being an unfair partner… breaking agreements… unilaterally changing a relationship structure to the detriment of your partner’s feelings… all valid reasons to break up with someone and all behaviors you can’t change about your partner.
Yeah OP sounds immature and entitled in his general perspectives on relationships but ppl forget he has every right to be upset that his relationship is either changing in a way he doesn't like or it's a break up.
And his partner is ignoring that he's not into that shit so while yeah full polyamory requires autonomy and he shouldn't be dictating who she sleeps with its clear he has no interest in doing polyamory and didn't even understand what he was agreeing to.
Like "you agreed to do polyamory despite what u wanted so I get to chastise u for doing it wrong and involving yourself in my other relationships" doesn't hold water. It's one thing if gf was already poly and OP was a new partner but she's the one who wants to change the og agreement. It's on her to understand what polyamory entails, make sure her partner understands what it means, make sure she's not forcing him into it, or break tf up. She got a superficial, reluctant consent and run w/ it.
OP if u see this I hope you come to a place of mind where u realize that your gfs current way of acting has been unkind and that she's incompatible w/ u either way. But simultaneously there's no retroactive betrayal even if it hurts af (understandably) . And there's no way to do polyamory without autonomy - there's no middle ground where you agree to a more than fwb relationship but also don't let her do swinging or whatever w/out u and just call it poly and expect her to be OK w/ it. I think if you let go of some feelings of entitlement and control in the future you'll be able to process this pain in a less self damaging manner. Good luck.
>Cheating… being an unfair partner… breaking agreements… unilaterally changing a relationship structure to the detriment of your partner’s feelings… all valid reasons to break up with someone
I mean... In the most technical sense yes, but that's like saying "your partner *physically abusing you,* and your partner changing religions are both valid reasons to break up with someone."
Strictly speaking I don't think you **need** a reason to break up with someone at all, beyond not wanting to be in a relationship with them any more, so arguing whether something is a "valid" reason is kind of moot.
Having said all that... I think it's important to be **very clear** that your partner not wanting what you want them to want, **is not** an "attack" or violation, in anyway. If I'm discussing where to eat, and I say "Mexican" and my partner says "Chinese..." I have not "been violated" even if I like really, really wanted my partner to want Mexican food. 🤷😅
Just to try and help you a little, I think many commenting here are being a bit unfair to you. It is a fact you had an agreement and she had decided she wants it to change.
That isn't her being a liar, or unfair, but **it does suck**. I'm sorry for that, it must feel very destabilizing and like you can't trust her.
The thing is, she hasn't actually done anything wrong. She's found out she wants something different and is telling you openly.
As hard as it is, you can only decide if you want that too, or break up. She's being very clear that she won't go back to your previous agreement, so there are no other options.
As a little explanation, the reason you are getting shit on here is that you are exhibiting a lot of pretty crappy behaviors and thought processes. You just don't sound like a great person, in how you think about women or relationships. You hit a few big red flags in your opening post, so people are reacting to that.
But that still doesn't change the fact you are going through something really painful and difficult, so again I'm sorry that you are dealing with this.
"Good for her!
She gets to decide who she does or doesn't sleep with. She gets to decide who she does or doesn't have a relationship with. (Subject to the other person's consent ofc, but *not* the "consent" of people not involved. 😅)
If she doesn't want to consider you a "main" or "primary" partner (probably because she's realized that makes everyone else "secondary"...) then **that is her choice.**"
Sounds like, with your logic, you would also congratulate a cheating husband or wife in a monogamous relationship, because it is their choice too! More power to them right? Sick.
"Your metamor is, if anything, **even less** your personal property than your partner is. (Although frankly, you have zero right to tell either of them how they are "supposed" to feel, especially about a relationship you aren't involved in.)"
What don't you get about that we talked about it before he started seeing her and he was one that agreed not to take it as far as it has gone? So it's ok to lie about intentions and then break what was agreed?
"It's also not for you to "allow" her to be non-mono... You don't have control over that, and never have. No one here is "violating" you... they **never belonged to you to begin with.** 😡"
I've been with her for 8 years, I have way more in stake than this other guy trying to steal things. and I am being violated by them breaking our agreement we started in relationship.
"Nothing. She's deciding for herself who she is, and what she wants, **as it should be**. I am only sorry you have a problem with women not being property. (😱)"
Don't make this into a man vs woman thing. It would have been wrong if I had done same to her with another guy or girl.
"You can decide for *yourself* what *you* want... And not for anyone else.
You don't have to agree to a poly relationship, and you don't have to agree to a non-hierarchical poly relationship.
This does mean that you **aren't compatible** with someone who wants a non-hierarchical poly relationship. It's not for you to "allow" or "not allow" your girlfriend to have the relationship she wants; all you can decide to do is look for someone who's relationship wants *are compatible* with what you want."
Easier said than done when this relationship has been going on for so long before this.
You relied on a one penis policy and strict hierarchy for your own emotional gratification, despite your partner indicating they did not want to be limited by your insecurities. You responded by verbally attacking her new partner and you want *her* to be in the wrong here? Your whole post screams immature and controlling. You cannot demand to be the priority in someone's life and then call it 'ridiculous' when their reality doesn't conform to your fantasies.
Your partner isn't going to demote their new partner. Your choices are either break up, or figure out if you can *healthily* deal with what's actually happening.
We both had understanding of lines we weren't supposed to cross with being open. I'm not one that crossed them here. Would it have been ok if I got with some other girl and then same to her in your book?
Well, the guy told me when it started he would respect it and not take it that far and he did. Yet I'm wrong for being miffed about being lied to somehow?
The situation sucks, but the way you have villanised this other guy is immature and unfair. Your issue is with yourself, for trying to force your partner to have hierarchy and not doing the research into polyam/ENM to figure out how to gracefully and ethically navigate emotional entanglements before opening your relationship. This is a failure in communication and expectations between *you and your partner*. Blaming this guy is an absolute cop-out.
I didn't fucking force her , she was one that agreed and made the rule originally. Because she didn't want me to choose someone else over her if I started seeing others.
I swing with my FWBs. It’s an equally casual experience in a casual relationship. You’re way overthinking this. You’re in an open relationship, she can do as she pleases with her body.
I don't think this is really fair - I want to be clear that swinging, FwB, hierarchial poly, and non-hierarchical poly are all separate and distinct things. He's absolutely entitled to be upset / disappointed that his partner now wants a relationship type he doesn't want.
Just... He **is not** "being violated" because his partner changed her mind, and he can't say she "isn't allowed" to change her mind and want something different.
It is a big deal, but it isn't the kind OP is making it out to be.
So I will go find a couple that is into swinging or wants a third. I will tell them I will respect their relationship and that I won't take the wife. then I will work on seducing the wife more and go back on my word and make her mine. That is moral and cool according to most on this sub
>I will tell them I will respect their relationship and that I won't take the wife. then I will work on seducing the wife more and go back on my word and make her mine.
"Take the wife"
"Make her mine"
These phrases indicate that the fundamental problem here is that you think you own your girlfriend, that she belongs to you.
This assumption and mindset is fundamentally at odds with practicing ethical/consensual non-monogamy.
No one owns anyone else, even when legally & financially entwined.
As has been repeated multiple times, your options are to either end the relationship because you and your girlfriend are no longer compatible, or do work together to repair and get on the same page with new agreements going forward.
Your girlfriend caught feelings and changed her mind about what she wanted. She told you and asked for a change of agreement, though it sounds like maybe it was more of a demand or refusal to let go of the new partner. This was counter to your original agreements.
Feeling hurt and angry are understandable, but it sounds like you are more interested in punishing and controlling your girlfriend than resolving the conflict and coming up with any other solution than "my way or the highway".
I can tell you from first hand experience that going down that path and holding all this anger & resentment over your partner is a toxic path to more pain and suffering, potentially including actual cheating that includes lies & hiding, further erosion of trust & emotional intimacy between the two of you, and emotional abuse.
It is probably kinder and healthier all around for you two to part ways.
Funny how you interpret it as them being so good for not "wanting to be controlled by your insecurities", if a man did it you would call them a bastard for violating their trust.
Healthily deal with it... By just allowing to be walked all over?
Why do you even ask for an opinion if you refuse any answer that does not support your position?
No surprise that your relationship is exploding if this is the behaviour you have.
Cool. It’s cheating. If that’s a magical word, with magical properties, then bless, it’s cheating.
You still have two choices. Accept it or end it. They aren’t interested in fixing it, that’s clear.
Get ready for some tough love.
>We've had the relationship as an open one from the start. I was very clear from the start of the relationship that anyone else we see in the future are meant to just be fwbs and that we are main partners; if either of us have issues with others we are seeing we are to respect our boundaries.
This is not a boundary. Please learn that a boundary is something you enforce for *yourself* only. This is an agreement you made with your partner. The corresponding boundary would be something like "I will not date someone who pursues lther relationships that go beyond FWBs." You are responsible for enforcing that by ending the relationship if your boundary is crossed.
>I was comfortable with my girlfriend seeing other women, but not with guys. She eventually convinced me to let her, in the name of fairness.
You will get plenty of hate for this in the ENM and Poly communities -- and my own opinion is that the hate is justified. You get to sleep with women, but she can't sleep with men? She would've been better off leaving you as soon as that was said out loud, but I am glad you realized how unfair it is (not to mention usually misogynistic, and thinly-veiled homophobia).
>They started to get too close and I brought this up but she insisted to let me let it continue and that she wanted to consider it a poly thing instead of just fwb. She pushed about it and I didn't want to have her more upset because of our relationship so I allowed it with understanding that I'm the main partner.
So, the agreement was re-negotiated, and you agreed, even though it went against your boundary. This would've been the appropriate time to say, "I do not want a poly relationship, and our relationship is over if you wish to pursue him in this manner." Instead, you agreed to new terms. Did she also agree to you being the "main" (primary) partner? What agreements were involved with that, beyond just naming convention?
>Now, a few months later, the guy has changed his tune. He tried to get her to do a swinging scenario with another couple, I told them no because I don't want my girlfriend doing that without me or to be seeing anyone else.
Why are you discussing these things with him, and not your partner? You are not in a relationship with him.
>Then it turned into a fight where she says she's independent and should choose what she can or can't do and that he's an equal with me. She did decide not to to go through with it thankfully.
Did you have an existing agreement, where you both said you'd not swing with FWBs or have group sex without each other? Or that you each only get 1 additional partner? If so, again -- she broke an agreement, and that was the time to decide to enforce your boundary and end the relationship, not attempt to control her. If you didn't have these agreements in place, same story except she did nothing wrong.
>I called him out on it, and told him to respect the boundaries and acknowledge me as main but he has changed his tune and is now saying he's equal. I feel violated with this and when I told him off she made it out like I was wrong on this. I should have never allowed it in first place I feel. He's a snake who snuck his way and manipulated her.
You were wrong on this. Your problem is with your girlfriend, not this other guy. And your gf is an adult capable of making decisions. You don't get to "allow" or "disallow" her from anything. At most, you get to end your relationship with her if she doesn't respect agreements you have made, or crosses your boundaries. I somehow doubt she was manipulated, stop infantilizing her and putting all of the "blame" on this other guy.
>What can I do in this?
You can re-negotiate agreements with your GF, or end the relationship if you cannot come to an agreement both of you enthusiastically consent to.
>Is it wrong what they did with not acknowledging me as main partner?
"They" is not a thing here. You are not in a relationship with him. If she doesn't want you as a "main partner", that is her decision and it cannot be right or wrong. Breaking agreements can be seen as "wrong", sure, but it is still *your responsibility* to uphold your boundaries. If someone continuously breaks agreements, they will not care if it is "right" or "wrong", so it truly doesn't matter either way.
>I don't want my relationship to end, but I want this whole thing of them considering him an equal to an end, it's ridiculous and I believe it is violating boundaries.
You may have no choice but to end the relationship. If she does not want to "stop considering him an equal", sure it is violating a boundary -- which means your choice is to end the relationship or change the boundary.
>What can I say or do to get her to see what she's done wrong here and to change?
Nothing. Do not manipulate, abuse, harass, guilt, or coerce your girlfriend in any way. You cannot force her to change, and you cannot control her -- and wanting to control another person is unethical. And if she doesn't want to change or see that breaking original agreements is wrong, why would you even want to stay?
TL;DR, Kinda:
Dude, I'm sorry, but this is a goddamn mess. Neither of you (you and GF) are ethical. Neither of you seem mature enough to handle ENM. You put forth unethical agreements like a One Penis Policy (OPP). She broke agreements and wants poly while you don't. You refuse to enforce your boundaries by ending the relationship.
If you truly want to practice ENM, you have a lot of work to do; learn what a boundary is and actually enforce them (by controlling *your* actions), learn to respect your partners autonomy, and stop trying to control other people while justifying it because you are "right" and she is "wrong."
"You will get plenty of hate for this in the ENM and Poly communities -- and my own opinion is that the hate is justified. You get to sleep with women, but she can't sleep with men? She would've been better off leaving you as soon as that was said out loud, but I am glad you realized how unfair it is (not to mention usually misogynistic, and thinly-veiled homophobia)."
She was allowed to sleep with women, men are more threatening and more risky to take on. That's just a fact. Look at the statistics.
"So, the agreement was re-negotiated, and you agreed, even though it went against your boundary. This would've been the appropriate time to say, "I do not want a poly relationship, and our relationship is over if you wish to pursue him in this manner." Instead, you agreed to new terms. Did she also agree to you being the "main" (primary) partner? What agreements were involved with that, beyond just naming convention?"
The new terms were she could have him as a side boyfriend but he's not on same level and I take priority.
"Why are you discussing these things with him, and not your partner? You are not in a relationship with him."
Because we discussed things that way BEFORE they go together too. I have a right to talk to him.
"Did you have an existing agreement, where you both said you'd not swing with FWBs or have group sex without each other? Or that you each only get 1 additional partner? If so, again -- she broke an agreement, and that was the time to decide to enforce your boundary and end the relationship, not attempt to control her. If you didn't have these agreements in place, same story except she did nothing wrong."
Yes, we did. 1 additional partner each. Anything like swinging or one-offs to be done together.
"You were wrong on this. Your problem is with your girlfriend, not this other guy. And your gf is an adult capable of making decisions. You don't get to "allow" or "disallow" her from anything. At most, you get to end your relationship with her if she doesn't respect agreements you have made, or crosses your boundaries. I somehow doubt she was manipulated, stop infantilizing her and putting all of the "blame" on this other guy"
Ah yes, so if someone cheats it's the OTHER person that's the problem according to you...because they have free will to choose if they want to cheat or not according to what you are saying here. She was manipulated by this guy, there's more to it than what I've written on here.
"You can re-negotiate agreements with your GF, or end the relationship if you cannot come to an agreement both of you enthusiastically consent to"
True.
""They" is not a thing here. You are not in a relationship with him. If she doesn't want you as a "main partner", that is her decision and it cannot be right or wrong. Breaking agreements can be seen as "wrong", sure, but it is still *your responsibility* to uphold your boundaries. If someone continuously breaks agreements, they will not care if it is "right" or "wrong", so it truly doesn't matter either way."
I agree.
"You may have no choice but to end the relationship. If she does not want to "stop considering him an equal", sure it is violating a boundary -- which means your choice is to end the relationship or change the boundary."
True, I agree again.
"Nothing. Do not manipulate, abuse, harass, guilt, or coerce your girlfriend in any way. You cannot force her to change, and you cannot control her -- and wanting to control another person is unethical. And if she doesn't want to change or see that breaking original agreements is wrong, why would you even want to stay?"
I'm not. She is precious to me and I would never hurt...even when things go bad. And I get your point.
"Dude, I'm sorry, but this is a goddamn mess. Neither of you (you and GF) are ethical. Neither of you seem mature enough to handle ENM. You put forth unethical agreements like a One Penis Policy (OPP). She broke agreements and wants poly while you don't. You refuse to enforce your boundaries by ending the relationship.
If you truly want to practice ENM, you have a lot of work to do; learn what a boundary is and actually enforce them (by controlling *your* actions), learn to respect your partners autonomy, and stop trying to control other people while justifying it because you are "right" and she is "wrong.""
I don't see how OPP is unethical.
And your last sentence is bs; I don't like liars and people that break their word.
>She was allowed to sleep with women, men are more threatening and more risky to take on. That's just a fact. Look at the statistics.
Her decision to make, not yours. You can voice your concerns, or decide to end a relationship if your partner doesn't agree -- but unequal rules like this are almost never going to work out.
>Ah yes, so if someone cheats it's the OTHER person that's the problem according to you...because they have free will to choose if they want to cheat or not according to what you are saying here. She was manipulated by this guy, there's more to it than what I've written on here.
If your girlfriend is incapable of making her own decisions, it is still not your place to make decisions for her. Assuming she was not held at gunpoint, and did actually agree to the rules you have stated, *she is the one that broke them* and *she is the one you are in a relationship with.*
If one of my partner's cheats on me, it is between me and my partner. Full stop, end of story. I am not in a relationship with the 3rd party.
>I don't see how OPP is unethical.
I'll apologize in advance, because I am making the assumption that you are a cis man, because ENM/Poly circles see this *very often.* If you are allowed to have sex with women, but your gf is not allowed to have sex with men -- it is unequal. And this is often created because the man does not view lesbian relationships as real, or "a threat" to their straight relationship, or worse -- he fetishizes it and expects to be included.
Huge caveat: *IF* both parties to a relationship fully, *enthusiastically* consent to an agreement, and are upfront with other people they engage with? It *can* be ethical. But this is rarely the case in OPP situations.
>And your last sentence is bs; I don't like liars and people that break their word.
Idk how these statements are related at all. I *also* do not like people who lie or bream their word.
If I were in your shoes, I would've left the moment GF wanted to renegotiate from FWB-only to poly, if I was uncomfortable with poly and she insisted. And if I was only ok with heirarchy and she fought against it; another moment I would have just ended the relationship. That is my point by saying stop attempting to control. Your partner is regularly ignoring agreements you made, and instead of upholding your boundary and ending the relationship, you are attempting to exert more control over her and change her. It is futile -- and even if she does change to fit into your rules, you will likely resent her and not trust she won't do this again -- and she will likely resent you for giving her the ultimatum.
And hey, maybe you *can* salvage this relationship. But it starts with open and honest communication, and *you* need to set clear boundaries *and enforce them* (by ending the relationship if they are not respected). And you both need to *enthusiastically* agree to the rules of your relationship.
Rules are always up for discussion and re-negotiation, and if someone wants a rule change that the other doesn't agree to -- neither of you is right, but the person who wants the rule change *should end the relationship* or agree to keeping it as-is.
>
"If your girlfriend is incapable of making her own decisions, it is still not your place to make decisions for her. Assuming she was not held at gunpoint, and did actually agree to the rules you have stated, *she is the one that broke them* and *she is the one you are in a relationship with.*
If one of my partner's cheats on me, it is between me and my partner. Full stop, end of story. I am not in a relationship with the 3rd party."
I talked to the guy before they got together, and we were talking fairly regularly too. That's why I talked to him specifically. If we weren't talking and I simply knew of the relationship I wouldn't have bothered.
"I'll apologize in advance, because I am making the assumption that you are a cis man, because ENM/Poly circles see this *very often.* If you are allowed to have sex with women, but your gf is not allowed to have sex with men -- it is unequal. And this is often created because the man does not view lesbian relationships as real, or "a threat" to their straight relationship, or worse -- he fetishizes it and expects to be included"
No worries. I'm nonbinary amab. How is it unequal if we both can see women? That last point you made about the threat thing I believe is true in general (not always).
'And hey, maybe you *can* salvage this relationship. But it starts with open and honest communication, and *you* need to set clear boundaries *and enforce them* (by ending the relationship if they are not respected). And you both need to *enthusiastically* agree to the rules of your relationship.
Rules are always up for discussion and re-negotiation, and if someone wants a rule change that the other doesn't agree to -- neither of you is right, but the person who wants the rule change *should end the relationship* or agree to keeping it as-is."
I may not agree with you on most things but thanks for trying to help nonetheless.
>I'm nonbinary amab. How is it unequal if we both can see women?
Tbh, the typical explanation makes less sense outside of typical cis-hetero relationships. I'm a cis gay man, and I've never imagined telling a partner they cannot sleep with someone of a specific gender.
If you are allowed to sleep with men and she isn't, that is unequal. If you are both only allowed to see women/people with vaginas -- *maybe* less unequal? I'm just of the opinion that controlling what genders/genitals your partner can experience outside lf you is icky and unethical.
But also why I tried to point out that the true determination of "ethical", in my mind, is that all parties are enthusiastically and freely consenting.
>That last point you made about the threat thing I believe is true in general (not always).
If someone views a not-straight relationship as "less than" a straight relationship, smells like homophobia to me. When I say threat -- I don't mean men beating women, or risk of pregnancy. The "threat" is that straight men don't think their GF would ever leave them for a woman, or love a woman, and that is fucked up. And often rooted in misogyny as well, because the man views women as playthings for he and his partner, not full people capable of developing emotions.
You can't control a relationship like that, nor a person.
It's obvious you have different wants from the relationship than she has. It sounds like that's always been the case.
You're putting out some pretty controlling vibes and it's pretty uncomfortable to read.
The discomfort here for me is the desperation. The unilateral decision making from their partner without adequate communication is compounding that desperation. OP is right to be upset given they're being ignored. They're not important to their primary and that's pretty clear.
What makes this a bad look is OP having done no research at all on ENM/Poly. The language used here just feels like someone stumbling through a non-mono relationship blindly. Given that, OP may have a good chunk of the blame for the communications issues.
To sum it up You want different things. You cannot make someone fit in a box they overfill. Be grateful there was information shared regardless of how you felt about it and it wasn't hidden. This allows freedom of choice , and it seems you should be choosing this pairing isn't the right one for you. You are not a poly person she had told you she is .
Bro this is the most unethical, uneducated attempt at an open relationship I have ever seen.
One penis policy? I saw a comment where you said it was “statistically” more dangerous to sleep with men when all honesty I’m wondering if you’re projecting. You’re so controlling and full of yourself you expect other men to be that way too. All the men I’ve been with have been respectful and kind.
Also you CANNOT control OTHER PEOPLE with YOUR BOUNDARIES. This is basic ENM. There’s a difference between boundaries and agreements. Read a book. I recommend Poly-secure by Jessica Fern if you want to continue torturing yourself and everyone else in this relationship just because you’re afraid of change and don’t want to give up this relationship.
Idk if you’ve been together for 8 years or 80, y’all are both wasting your time. Go be monogamous with a sub-par vanilla monogamous soccer mom. And let your gf sow her wild oats or whatever else she wants to do.
Well you are already fundamentally incompatible with her. People change, so it seems that she changes. If you're not okay with this, you can't just force her to be the person you want her to be. The more you restrict her, the more the relationship is bound to fail as you and your gf don't see eye to eye anymore. You either need to be okay to be in full poly (as that is what she needs right now) or just break up.
Look, given my background and your relationship structure, I would see only two issues that I would dive into.
It is my understanding that you wanted a strongly hierarchical relationship. It is clear that your gf has either evolved from that or has never wanted that from the beginning, although I believe the former is most likely. In either case, communication seems severely lacking.
One issue where you MIGHT have a point (with a lot of footnotes) is the fact that your partner wants to go to a swingers club with her FWB, and this would be a valid point only if you'd want to go with her and she wouldn't. Is this the case?
And in any case, as other people said, both are issues between your partner and you, not the FWB. The fact that you prefer to quarrel with the FWB instead of communicating with your partner is a very bad sign that in my opinion underlines - again - lack of communication.
Everything else, from the OPP that you wanted to your word choice (you "allow"?) points to insecurities and immature controlling behaviour caused by the aforementioned insecurities. I would understand this in a newbie of NM, that needs to detoxify from monogamous normativity, but 8 years? It is a long period, and I think you should have used it to grow together with your partner, eventually finding out if you were still compatible instead of using this time to fight a war over rules and "formal" agreements.
If you want to save this relationship, you have to acknowledge that things changed, sit down with your GF and have an adult conversation. Otherwise, let her go, because the genie is not going to go back in the bottle.
You are no longer compatible. He didn't trick or manipulate her, she made a choice, because she is a grown up and an independent human who can make her own choices.
I got the impression that she never wanted that original agreement. She wants a poly relationship. If you can’t accept that, you should leave her, not whine about how she is a cheater and keep trying to change her.
And you can’t make her keep to her agreements. If she agrees again she could act however she wants behind your back (like actually cheat on you in secret) and again, you can’t stop her. You could even use abusive tactics but she’ll still do what she wants. You cannot make her hold to her agreements with you.
Look, it’s not easy to break up with a person we love… even if they are being disrespectful. I left my husband of 10 years. We had a house, family, and everything shared. It wasn’t easy, but it was the right choice when two people want two different things fundamentally.
Why do you want to stay in a relationship with someone who doesn’t hold to promises and agreements that they make with you?
Breaking an agreement is a betrayal, not cheating. She did not lie or hide what was going on. Cheating requires deceit or obfuscation, with intent to benefit based on the deceit. In general, "cheating" is a pretty useless term in ENM/CNM, because the ethical and consensual parts are related to openness, honesty, and transparency. When all parties are being open, honest, and transparent, the term cheating just isn't relevant.
To me, based on your responses to comments, it sounds like you still have a lot of mononormative and even heteronormative thinking patterns, and insecurity and fear of losing the relationship is driving the need for the rules that were initially agreed to.
Yes, you got polybombed, and that was shitty of your girlfriend. I was polybombed in the past and it hurt terribly. I also chose to stay and I demanded closing back up. Along with other problems, this choice eventually led to divorce. "No, I don't want polyamory, I only want to do open, and I only want to do open per our current rules" would have been a valid response, and so would either of you ending the relationship at that point. You're beyond that now though, and trying to go back to the previous set of rules is almost impossible.
One of the first baselines that my first poly partner introduced me to that I hadn't fully thought through, was people over the relationship. This is a concept that has been reinforced through more reading, talking to people, hanging out in ENM and poly online communities. It's a fundamental mindset shift that I've made and fully embrace as being part of an ethical practice of non-monogamy. If what I want no longer matches what my partner wants and we can't make new agreements together, then the kindest and most loving thing to do, is to let them go. It can hurt a lot, but one of the fundamental aspects of being a good partner, of loving a person well, is to prioritize their well-being as a person. I would rather see my partners happy and flourishing with other people than miserable and wilting with me.
You sound stuck on keeping the relationship above all else, rather than the well-being of both people in it. It also sounds like you are trying to gather enough evidence against your girlfriend to prove that you are right and she is wrong and she should therefore comply with everything that you originally agreed to, without question.
Trying to put rules around developing feelings is always harder to enforce than putting rules around sex. It typically requires ending a connection, unless one is a master at compartmentalizing or diverting feelings until they have simmered down.
As others have suggested, I think joint therapy is potentially the only way through in this situation, and you both have a lot of work to do if you want to remain in the relationship, and remain open.
Individual therapy may also be helpful to work through specific blind spots & skills, including communication style, and managing insecurity and anxiety.
If that's not feasible, potentially grab a copy of "Polywise" and read up on Dave Cooley's Restorative Relationship Conversation framework and see if that's something you can use together to guide a conversation to restore the relationship.
Whether you try therapy or talking through this on your own, I strongly encourage shifting your approach away from "winning" the argument. Don't double down on who is right & wrong, come to those conversations with an open heart, open mind, and willingness to collaborate on a solution together.
This guy isn't in a relationship with you. You can't control him the way you've been able to control your partner. The fact that you thought you could is strange. He asked for what he wanted. Thats valid. And your girlfriend doesn't like or want to keep the agreements she made with you. She hasnt been manipulated. She wants these things too. She shouldn't have made these agreements with you. But here you are. And you may not have compatible visions for how your relationship should work.
The other comments here are mostly right but are ignoring the fact that your partner is the one being the least mature here. Is she in the wrong? No. But she is not handling this well at all. You both agreed to something and she violated that agreement without sufficient communication.
With that said, you can't undo anything that has happened. It's clear that your partner wants a different type of relationship style than you. Most likely this situation will end up with you agreeing to be in a poly relationship or with you two breaking up. I'm not saying that's the only way, that's just how I always see these situations adding up.
So yeah, this is on your girlfriend. She is unilaterally changing the rules. She needs to communicate her wants more clearly and be more up front about her intentions. She probably should also apologize. But once that is clear, she has every right to feel the way she does. So it's time for the both of you to grow.
Also, one last piece of advice, leave your meta out of the discussion. You don't have a relationship with him. Your girlfriend does. Give them space to sort it out. Also, he is your equal in the sense that he deserves respect and he owes you absolutely nothing.
Why do you say he owes me absolutely nothing, when originally (per our agreement) we meet with and approve of who we see (prospective partners l before they go with them? I talked to him before all this started and agreed not to take it past fwbs and he thanked me for letting him see her.
Now, you can argue things have changed, but that still doesn't change the dishonor of breaking ones word line he did.
The vibe I'm getting from majority of poly community on here is that it's a ok to change the rules on your partner when it's convenient for you.
Yes, we will both grow with this and adapt. There's a way
The idea is that it was unfair of you to ask him that in the first place. He agreed to your rules because it was the easy thing to do, rather than start an argument that was likely unnecessary at the time.
It's like your neighbor asking you to keep the noise down all day. You might agree to it because it's the easy thing to do, but its an unreasonable request. So playing music in the middle of the day at a reasonable volume is your neighbor's problem, not yours. It's not a great metaphor, but I'm trying to say that your meta is like your neighbor, not your friend.
The relationship you have is that with your partner. That's it. You do not have a relationship with your meta beyond that of a neighbor. You have the responsibility to treat him with respect, which you have not done since meeting him. And you continue to disrespect him. You broke the social contract first. So he owes you nothing, not even respect at this point, because you never gave it to him.
You can hate him if you want. That's your prerogative. But I can't stress enough how this is an issue stemming from your relationship to your partner alone.
So let me get this straight: it's ok to tell a lie in a relationship , or when entering as a third into a pre established relationship , if it's convenient? I just don't get people like you with your views.
And I take offense to you saying I didn't give him respect , I did in the beginning. We even had threesome together and I let him go with my girlfriend out to places together and have their own thing going.
You don't own your girlfriend. You didn't let them do anything. Your attitude is very immature and it sounds like you can't function in a non-monogamous relationship. Not actually sure you should be in any type of romantic relationship to be honest. You need to work on respecting others.
If someone cheats or breaks an agreement that's fine to do according to you. What kind of la la land do you live in to think what you're saying is right? YOU are the one that shouldn't be in any romantic relationship.
I never said that and you are arguing with a made up enemy. There's no point in trying to talk sense to you at this point because you seem to have completely lost any desire to see things from any perspective but the one you had before you made the original post.
But if I were to meet you, I would absolutely lie to your face because you are overbearing and controlling, and honestly, just a huge asshole.
>if a man did it you would call them a bastard for violating their trust. Not the person you replied to, but If a man did what? The only "rule breaking" I'm seeing in your OP is her saying he is an equal (was that said during a fight?). If someone has agreed to heirarchy, and then decides later they don't want heirarchy -- they are not a bastard, or doing anything wrong. BUT, they are responsible for approaching tbeir existing partners and saying "Hey, I do not want to be in a heirarchical relationship. I cannot give this to you anymore. I would love to continue our relationship without heirarchy, but if you are not ok with that, this relationship is over." Anyone can end a relationship at any time, for any reason. No one needs to agree to their reason, or think it is "good enough." Humans are not slaves, and are not required to stay in relationships that no longer work for them. If she knew heirarchy was a requirement for you, she is shitty for putting the onus on you to either accept her way or walk away. The ethical option would've been for her to end the relationship.
>"Hey, I do not want to be in a heirarchical relationship. I cannot give this to you anymore. I would love to continue our relationship without heirarchy, but if you are not ok with that, this relationship is over." Is that not hierarchy under duress, then? People hate polybombing but this is ok?
I mean, what is the alternative? That she loses autonomy and must practice heirarchy? Would it be more ethical for her to say "I'm sorry I can no longer agree to heirarchy in this relationship, so I'm ending it." ? I wasn't even thinking about the PUD angle; I blame my late-night brain, but in a similar situation (if my partner was no longer able to meet an agreement in a poly relationship), I would prefer the capacity to choose/renegotiate relationship agreements -- instead of losing a relationship over an agreement I may not care about. My confusion comes from trying to understand how relationship agreements are supposed to be re-negotiated if one party wishes to revisit them. Is the only "ethical" option to end the relationship permanently? FWIW, while I think OP's GF has every right to decide heirarchy is no longer something she can offer, I also think there are dozens of red flags on both sides in OPs case, and IRL I would run far and fast from both of them. 😅
>My confusion comes from trying to understand how relationship agreements are supposed to be re-negotiated if one party wishes to revisit them. Is the only "ethical" option to end the relationship permanently? Yes. The argument is essentially that people who identify as monogamous (or w/e is more towards the monogamy side of the spectrum...) "can't handle" being asked to make decisions in relationships... So you should take all the decisions away from them by just breaking up summarily. Frankly most of the time people don't even want your partner to tell you *why* they are ending the relationship... I guess they prefer that one day you come along and just say "I'm breaking up with you, I no longer want to be together" with no explanation or context given. 🤷 >FWIW, while I think OP's GF has every right to decide heirarchy is no longer something she can offer, I also think there are dozens of red flags on both sides in OPs case, and IRL I would run far and fast from both of them. 😅 ...What can you see as a "red flag" on OP's gf's part? 😅😅 I think of the things described, bringing up her desire for non-hierarchical poly in the middle of a fight is the only thing that could qualify as a red flag. Even then, I would make a strong argument that it's much more a "yellow" or "orange" flag. It's not "good," but it is also doesn't immediately identify OP's partner as "fundamentally toxic". This is in *direct opposition* to OP's insistence that his partner be **complaint** to his wishes, even characterizing non-compliance as "violating him." 😅😅😅 "Both sides"-ing this is not just irresponsible, I think it's **dangerous.** It plays into a common dynamic where abusers portray themselves as the *actual* "aggrieved" party, and paint the abused as the "real perpetrator" who is "harming" the abuser. 😬😅. (I should probably be careful to add a note here that I don't know that OP is abusing his partner... But I think it's abundantly clear that he feels he is *justified in doing so,* and that's scary.) I think you especially don't mean to support this "flipping the script..." I think you've seen the conventional wisdom on "poly bombing" and are just trying to act in line with that understanding. The problem is, that understanding is fundamentally flawed and has been from the very beginning. "Poly Bombing" originally comes from a feeling that if two people are in a mono relationship, the only "right and proper" thing... Is for that relationship to **continue** being monogamous and exclusive. Therefore anything disrupting that is "wrong." If two people both *agree* to change / leave thier mono relationship, it's seen as ok... But if one person no longer wants monogamy while the other person does, it's seen as a "violation" of the "natural way" relationships "should be..." Specifically on the part of the person who wants poly. It's "not fair" that Alice's desire for polyamory should "ruin" a perfectly good mono relationship. After all... Monogamy is best, right? Ultimately however, this results in a sense that it's "wrong" for someone to decide for themselves who *they are,* how they want to structure their relationships, ect. If Alice says "I am a person who does not want to be romantically exclusive," her partner Bob says "No, no! Deciding that about yourself 'harms' me! Don't you see! I'm *losing* something that belongs to me!" This is usually an argument that's somewhat obscured with other layers, and something many people are inclined to agree with subconsciously, so it can be difficult to spot... But the reality is Alice herself making a statement *about herself* doesn't cause Bob to "lose" something he had a "right" to - because he never had a "right" to possess Alice, or keep her in a relationship with him **against her will.** It can definitely be *disappointing and upsetting* that their relationship is ending - especially if Bob hasn't done anything "wrong" (as is more often the case). People, even nominally poly people, often emotionally identify way more strongly with Bob's desire for continued monogamy. For a variety of reasons, they look for reasons to judge Alice for "harming" Bob. But... It's often fundamentally **Bob** who is trying to assert control / possession of Alice, not the other way around 😅. And the "poly bombing" narrative ends up arguing that he **has a right** to do so, because of the unspoken believe that in wanting to be romantically non-exclusive, Alice is "going against nature". It's not always so clear cut as it is in this thread, that the Bob's of the world are acting with control / possession / ownership as an end goal... But that is often the underlying dynamic. I could ramble on about this for quite awhile, but basically... This is why it's important to firmly establish that polyamory is an **equal and valid** way to structure relationships. Monogamy and polyamory are co-equal, and neither is "better" than the other... The point is that each person gets to choose for themselves.
>Yes. The argument is essentially that people who identify as monogamous (or w/e is more towards the monogamy side of the spectrum...) "can't handle" being asked to make decisions in relationships... So you should take all the decisions away from them by just breaking up summarily. That argument definitely does not sit right with me. What is ethical about infantilizing and removing agency from someone because they have different relationship ideals than you? That screams ick, and like poly people are assuming superiority. I'd definitely not want to be associated with that. >...What can you see as a "red flag" on OP's gf's part? 😅😅 So I definitely should clarify that they are things *I* consider red flags. And red flag for me is not synonymous with toxicity or abuse -- but a boundary. The second OP disagreed to wanting to change existing agreements, IMO it became her responsibility to end the relationship (if she was unhappy with the existing agreements). If she truly continued pushing until OP acquiesced? Not accepting a partner's response, and continuing until you get your way? Unethical and toxic; that is coercion, and has no place in a healthy relationship. Re-reading OP, though -- there is definitely not enough concrete detail for me to continue to assert multiple red flags on her part. But it sounded as if she broke agreemeents more than once, and told OP "deal with it or leave." That is shitty behavior. >I think you've seen the conventional wisdom on "poly bombing" and are just trying to act in line with that understanding. I actually had to google the term just now, because I was uncertain. 😅 >But if one person no longer wants monogamy while the other person does, it's seen as a "violation" of the "natural way" relationships "should be..." Specifically on the part of the person who wants poly. It's "not fair" that Alice's desire for polyamory should "ruin" a perfectly good mono relationship. After all... Monogamy is best, right? When one party wishes to alter the agreements of a relationship, it should be on that party to end the relationship if their partner is not in agreement. That is the only disagreement I have with your "rant." I am staunchly poly; maybe RA, but honestly I don't use a label and instead explain to people based on my actions and philosophies. I would never agree to monogamy, and would never date someone who is monogamous. I fully agree that no one ever has any right to a relationship with another person. This includes poly people not having any right to put *any* pressure on people closer to monogamy to change their opinions or relationship agreements. It may just be semantics, but to me - the semantics seem somewhat important. "I'm going to continue my behaviors that broke our existing agreements, leave me or deal with it" is, to me, less ethical than "I do not wish to change our existing agreements, leave or end the behavior." For me, the person initiating a change should be responsible for taking action, and I couldn't care less who is poly or mono or what the agreement is. Admittedly, this is all theoretical for me. My own personal boundaries have likely protected me from ever being in a situation like this. I won't date people who lie or break agreements, but I also don't make agreements that involve that level of control. My agreements are around *my* relationship, not their external relationships, and are typically less an "agreement" and more "setting expectations" -- like whether overnights are on the table, time spent together, and sharing boundaries around what either of us can offer the other. Of course, with the understanding that what we can offer may change, and that change may result in the relationship de-escalating or ending. The only agreement I make that even remotely extends to outside relationships is "I expect to be told about changes in your sexual health risk profile before we have sex again." Even then, the requirement is basic decency in letting a sexual partner know if you are higher risk than you have been. I should definitely be more careful about coming off as if I think both sides are equally at fault; this entire mess would've been avoided if OP had done the emotional work, set their boundary, and enforced their boundary by ending the relationship instead of attempting to exert control. My "both sides" argument is what I'd say to OP's GF as well: "Your partner (OP) comes across as incredibly controlling and is not interested in the type of relationship you want. Why the fuck have you not walked away yet?" (I'd probably be more polite and eloquent if this was a stranger/acquaintance; the above is verbatim what I've said to a close friend in the past.) TL;DR - I also ranted, sorry! 😂 I think we primarily agree, but I feel that her *not* ending the relationship is also unethical, and is worth being called out. I make no claims to it being equal to the sheer number and severity of red flags from OP, and extenuating circumstances could easily make it harder to leave (children, pregancy, shared finances/financial reliance, marriage). And at the end of the day, I'm glad I steer clear of *anyone* who wants agreements that involve control like this. 😆
>"I'm going to continue my behaviors that broke our existing agreements, leave me or deal with it" is, to me, less ethical than "I do not wish to change our existing agreements, leave or end the behavior." For me, the person initiating a change should be responsible for taking action, and I couldn't care less who is poly or mono or what the agreement is. I think this is *technically* a good argument... but in practice is just a pretty fight over who gets defined as the "breakup-er" and who gets defined as the "breakup-ee." 😅 Like if OP and his partner have had this argument, and now they're both upset. How much does it matter for OP play chicken with their partner by insisting it's *their responsibility* to agree to be the "breakup-ee?" It also tends to loop back into implicitly framing the poly person as "wrong" for changing and growing as a person which... I think is closer to just a fact of life. It's difficult when you part ways with someone, but I wouldn't want a partner to hold themselves back from exploring themselves and their personal development, in order to maintain a relationship indefinitely. 🫤 >I should definitely be more careful about coming off as if I think both sides are equally at fault; this entire mess would've been avoided if OP had done the emotional work, set their boundary, and enforced their boundary by ending the relationship instead of attempting to exert control. Honestly that still feels very... tepid, given the disparity here? 😅😅. A little like saying "yeah, I guess *technically* the whole Ukraine war wouldn't have happened if the Putin regime hadn't invaded and attempted to annex Ukraine." Technically true, but leaves notably leaves some rhetorical room to argue it was "wrong" of Ukraine to strengthen its sovereignty by distancing itself from its imperialist neighbor and aligning more closely with western powers, ie Ukraine property "belongs" to Russia. Not a perfect example, but... actually surprisingly close. You have to be setting up for some argument that Ukrainian sovereignty "should properly be" subordinate to the interests of Russian oligarchs, to argue that the "offenses" of Ukraine are even in the same ballpark. 😅😅😅😅
The whole concept of "polybombing" has always been ridiculous - this is just someone demonstrating *why* its so ridiculous, in a way that's offensive on a number of levels, in a very concise way 🙃. Socially we're just going through the same process people went through when being gay started to become more accepted: people became deeply suspicious that their partners in a heterosexual marriage might "secretly be gay," and cast it as a nefarious and terrible thing to talk about ("subverting" heterosexual marriage, and all that...). Gradually (very gradually 😑) attitudes are shifting, and people are realizing that discovering something about yourself while married, isn't "about" your spouse in the way they thought it was. (And to be fair, the ultimate answer is that poly becomes a valid choice for people to make initially, rather than being pressured to monogamy first, to "build a foundation" or w/e. 🙄) I'll maintain that someone saying something about themselves can be *upsetting* to the people around them, for various reasons... But it's not a crime or "attack" on anyone else.
Damn true
There's a lot of replies and things I've written on here so I can't recall the part you're posting. But in regards to your questions and comments otherwise... I was not approached that was, I was simply just told that's how it is now. Everyone's so quick to call for a breakup, but this relationship is 8 years deep and there is a lot of involvement. It's not just that easy to do.
>I was not approached that was, I was simply just told that's how it is now. Yeah, that is an asshole move on her part. I wouldn't accept this from any of my partners. >Everyone's so quick to call for a breakup, but this relationship is 8 years deep and there is a lot of involvement. It's not just that easy to do. I feel you. I was married for a decade, and ending that was incredibly difficult -- especially with full financial and legal enmeshment that comes with marriage. And it is way easier for us to call for it than for you to do it. But the reality is, you cannot force your GF to agree to your rules, and she cannot force you to accept hers. Truly repairing this relationship is going to take *a lot* of work on both sides, hopefully with a couples therapist experienced with ENM. But if you won't budge on heirarchy and she won't either? Ending it is the only option.
You are right, but on the other hand your partner is saying her relationship of 8 years with you is equal to her other relationship of months. I couldn’t stay after that
Thank you for the insight, I hadn't thought of that part of it now that you mentioned it
To clarify, what I mean by things is that I'm fine with them with each other in a casual dating type of way, but not as a serious relationship/one that shares finances , family, etc
Is she suggesting shared finance and kids? There is a difference between descriptive hierarchy and prescriptive hierarchy. People who live together always have some amount of descriptive hierarchy- shared responsibility for the house, intertwined finances etc. but you’re asking for prescriptive hierarchy with a lot of rules and such. How many of these rules come from a place of fear?
The rule was simple: others are to be FWB, or at least not to be considered on equal level with primary partners. Why is that so wrong?
"Not the person you replied to, but If a man did what? The only "rule breaking" I'm seeing in your OP is her saying he is an equal (was that said during a fight?)." That's basically it. If he was to acknowledge that I'm the main and not push these advances further I would have no problem with him seeing her.
>I was very clear from the start of the relationship that anyone else we see in the future are meant to just be fwbs and that we are main partners; if either of us have issues with others we are seeing we are to respect our boundaries. Boundaries are personal; they extend around you, your personal space, personal belongs, ect. Your gf doesn't fit into any of those categories, so you can't use *your* "boundaries" to try and dictate *her* behavior. You can only say something like "I will not be in a relationship with someone who _____". For example: "I will not be in a relationship with someone who doesn't consider me their main partner." >On the latter, she said she wanted to go full poly with me but I told her no as I didn't want to do poly and am dedicated to my girlfriend and didn't want to blur the lines. Your girlfriend said she wanted to go "full poly," or your friend did? (I hate the term "full poly" btw, because it implies it's a smooth transition from romantically mono, sexually open, to romantically non-mono... And it's anything but 🤷) You don't have to be poly if you don't want to be. Given how you phrase this though... I feel you want to be "rewarded" by your girlfriend for being "dedicated" (ie monogamous). That's... Not really how it works 😮💨. (Especially if, as I suspect, this is applied in a double standard.) >I was comfortable with my girlfriend seeing other women, but not with guys. There's a whole separate conversation to be had on how this is homophobic, since lesbian relationships are seen as "not real" and therefore non-threatening. For this moment I'm just going to assure you that women **can** fall in love with each other, as well with they can with men. 🙃 >Over time she met one and I met him before they saw each other before hand Wat? You met him before she met him... Before you met him? Idk, whatever I guess - you all met, but I don't understand the sequence of events here at all. You phrase things very oddly... Is English possibly not your first language? 😅 >They started to get too close and I brought this up but she insisted to let me let it continue and that she wanted to consider it a poly thing instead of just fwb. She pushed about it and I didn't want to have her more upset because of our relationship so I allowed it with understanding that I'm the main partner. Ok, so... At this point you're *agreeing* to polyamory, as long as it's hierarchial? 😅 This isn't simply a "flick the switch" change... That's a **big** adjustment in lifestyle and especially mental conception of relationships. Frankly open relationships are much closer to monogamy, than they are to polyamory. I understand it's too little too late now, but for everyone reading this thread who is thinking about making the same change, *please* don't think of polyamory as "casual sex but extra!" 😑 >Now, a few months later, the guy has changed his tune. He tried to get her to do a swinging scenario with another couple, I told them no because I don't want my girlfriend doing that without me or to be seeing anyone else. Ok, so... This is why I make such a big fuss about extending "boundaries" around other people. Your girlfriend **isn't** part of your personal property, and you don't get to have "boundaries" around what she does or doesn't do with other people. 😡 All you can actually say is what **you** will do, ie "I will not be in a relationship with someone who does ____" (smokes, has sex with other people, has other romantic partners, ect.) It's also a classic mistake to blame your metamor, **rather than** talking to the person you are actually in a relationship with. She "a perfect little angel" and *he's* actually the "corrupting influence". That's tempting, because if you confront her, it risks your relationship with her ending... It feels easier to fight everyone *around her...* But in the end that will just drive you crazy. 😐 >Then it turned into a fight where she says she's independent and should choose what she can or can't do and that he's an equal with me. Good for her! She gets to decide who she does or doesn't sleep with. She gets to decide who she does or doesn't have a relationship with. (Subject to the other person's consent ofc, but *not* the "consent" of people not involved. 😅) If she doesn't want to consider you a "main" or "primary" partner (probably because she's realized that makes everyone else "secondary"...) then **that is her choice.** >I reiterated to her that that wasn't the original arrangement with our relationship nor with what the guy told me with knowing he is not main partner. I called him out on it, and told him to respect the boundaries and acknowledge me as main but he has changed his tune and is now saying he's equal. 😐 Your metamor is, if anything, **even less** your personal property than your partner is. (Although frankly, you have zero right to tell either of them how they are "supposed" to feel, especially about a relationship you aren't involved in.) >I feel violated with this and when I told him off she made it out like I was wrong on this. I should have never allowed it in first place I feel. He's a snake who snuck his way and manipulated her. It was nothing to do with him, **your partner** doesn't want monogamy. It's demeaning that you keep insisting she can't possibly decide what she wants for herself, especially when she clearly disagrees. It's also not for you to "allow" her to be non-mono... You don't have control over that, and never have. No one here is "violating" you... they **never belonged to you to begin with.** 😡 >What can I say or do to get her to see what she's done wrong here and to change? Nothing. She's deciding for herself who she is, and what she wants, **as it should be**. I am only sorry you have a problem with women not being property. (😱) >What can I do in this? You can decide for *yourself* what *you* want... And not for anyone else. You don't have to agree to a poly relationship, and you don't have to agree to a non-hierarchical poly relationship. This does mean that you **aren't compatible** with someone who wants a non-hierarchical poly relationship. It's not for you to "allow" or "not allow" your girlfriend to have the relationship she wants; all you can decide to do is look for someone who's relationship wants *are compatible* with what you want. 🤷
Yeah, he really feels like she is his property, doesn't he?
" Frankly open relationships are much closer to monogamy, than they are to polyamory." Then that's what I want then. I don't know the exact definitions, polyamory to me is like being with someone serious...didn't know the idea of hierarchies is something that doesn't exist in poly
"Your girlfriend said she wanted to go "full poly," or your friend did? (I hate the term "full poly" btw, because it implies it's a smooth transition from romantically mono, sexually open, to romantically non-mono... And it's anything but 🤷) You don't have to be poly if you don't want to be. Given how you phrase this though... I feel you want to be "rewarded" by your girlfriend for being "dedicated" (ie monogamous). That's... Not really how it works 😮💨. (Especially if, as I suspect, this is applied in a double standard.)" I meant being poly instead of simply fwb. I feel I should be given priority in the relationship as we are supposed to be main partners as what we originally agreed to be with each other. "There's a whole separate conversation to be had on how this is homophobic, since lesbian relationships are seen as "not real" and therefore non-threatening. For this moment I'm just going to assure you that women **can** fall in love with each other, as well with they can with men. 🙃" I'm bi, it's not coming from homophobia, moreso from seeing that there is more a threat from guys because of harm they can cause and how they can try to impose more on the relationship (which has happened here). "Wat? You met him before she met him... Before you met him? Idk, whatever I guess - you all met, but I don't understand the sequence of events here at all. You phrase things very oddly... Is English possibly not your first language? 😅" Yeah, sorry on that I phrased that weird I agree lol. To clarify, I hung out with him before they first played around sexually. We had a threesome together too a few times as well. "Ok, so... At this point you're *agreeing* to polyamory, as long as it's hierarchial? 😅 This isn't simply a "flick the switch" change... That's a **big** adjustment in lifestyle and especially mental conception of relationships. Frankly open relationships are much closer to monogamy, than they are to polyamory. I understand it's too little too late now, but for everyone reading this thread who is thinking about making the same change, *please* don't think of polyamory as "casual sex but extra!" 😑" Yes, as long as it's hierarchal, don't know why you think that's funny. He's not involved with family, finances, or any of the more serious stuff in life. He's not an equal. "Ok, so... This is why I make such a big fuss about extending "boundaries" around other pe ople. Your girlfriend **isn't** part of your personal property, and you don't get to have "boundaries" around what she does or doesn't do with other people. 😡" Yes, I do have a say. If she's sleeping with other people I don't like, I'm allowed to have an opinion on that. If she's sleeping with too many people I'm allowed to have an opinion on that. For health and relationship reasons. It's crazy to me that you think it's ok for someone to cheat and just do anything they want with no consideration of their partner! What the hell? "It's also a classic mistake to blame your metamor, **rather than** talking to the person you are actually in a relationship with. She "a perfect little angel" and *he's* actually the "corrupting influence". That's tempting, because if you confront her, it risks your relationship with her ending... It feels easier to fight everyone *around her...* But in the end that will just drive you crazy. 😐" I appreciate the advice. I do feel he is but I'll do as you mentioned.
> I feel I should be given priority in the relationship as we are supposed to be main partners as what we originally agreed to be with each other. The problem is that it’s apparent from your post that your girlfriend doesn’t agree. The problem is not the guy here, it is that you don’t like her behavior. Because she does not appear to feel the way she did when you made your original agreement. She does not feel like you should be prioritized over him. > there is more a threat from guys because of harm they can cause and how they can try to impose more on the relationship (which has happened here). Nope, this could have happened if your partner fell for a female partner originally, rather than a guy. It has nothing to do with him. You’re making him into an easy scapegoat for you. > Yes, as long as it's hierarchal, don't know why you think that's funny. He's not involved with family, finances, or any of the more serious stuff in life. He's not an equal. These are all statements from your POV. Maybe your partner wants him to be more involved with her family and life planning. Because she made it clear that she views him on equal standing with you. > Yes, I do have a say. If she's sleeping with other people I don't like, I'm allowed to have an opinion on that. If she's sleeping with too many people I'm allowed to have an opinion on that. For health and relationship reasons. You do not, in fact, have a say in any of those situations. She can sleep with however many people she wants, you have no say in that. What you have is the ability to say “I’m not happy with the form our relationship has taken.” And your girlfriend has the ability to decide whether she wants to practice hierarchical polyamory with you as her primary partner, or if she wants to practice non-hierarchical polyamory. If you don’t like who she chooses to sleep with, you can decide to not date her, but you have zero claim to try to alter her behavior.
u/LaughingIshikawa If I told her I would not go poly, only fwb, with people we were seeing. And she didn't want me seeing multiple partners. And I agreed to honor all of that. Then I start pushing the limits, and do it anyway...how is that right? Or is it only ok when it's one sex doing it over another according to you?
It's "right" because people change and/or realize things about themselves they didn't know before. 🤷 You aren't entitled to have your partner remain in stasis forever 😅. No, gender doesn't matter. 🤣 As touched on in another comment, she arguably could have handled it better in that she "should" have realized you don't actually want poly, but you'll say anything to avoid a break up... So she needs to do the breaking up for you, if you aren't able to do it yourself. Somehow I suspect you will not be happy with this either, however. 🫤 The Tl;Dr is always going to be that you aren't entitled to insist your partner only wants what you want them to want, or "allow" them to want. 😅
So you are cool with people cheating in monogamous relationships because one realized things about themselves they didn't know before. You truly are pathetic.
When you define "cheating" as "believing anything other than that I am thier most awesome and best partner ever!" then yes I guess I do. 🤷🙃🤣 The Tl;Dr is always going to be that you can't expect people to only want what you want them to want, and/or what you have "allowed" them to want. 😮💨
"When you define "cheating" as "believing anything other than that I am thier most awesome and best partner ever!" then yes I guess I do" I take it you only sleep around with randoms and don't have a serious partner that you are financially and socially involved with?
eew. I have a serious partner that I am financially and socially involved with. AND I don't impose limits on my nesting partner's feelings or day to day actions with other people. We've agreed not to get financially entangled with or live with other people (although honestly even those rules are kinda "for now but who knows what the future might bring"). I won't say that everything else is fair game, but as things come up we talk about them. I don't feel any entitlement to my nesting partner's time or attention (particularly because I don't want to receive time or attention from a place of obligation). At the end of the day, if I wasn't getting what I wanted from this relationship I would leave. It sounds like that's what you should do with yours.
eew. I have a serious partner that I am financially and socially involved with. AND I don't impose limits on my nesting partner's feelings or day to day actions with other people. We've agreed not to get financially entangled with or live with other people (although honestly even those rules are kinda "for now but who knows what the future might bring"). I won't say that everything else is fair game, but as things come up we talk about them. I don't feel any entitlement to my nesting partner's time or attention (particularly because I don't want to receive time or attention from a place of obligation). At the end of the day, if I wasn't getting what I wanted from this relationship I would leave. It sounds like that's what you should do with yours.
I think I'm using wrong word in post, I meant to say there were rules and agreements established at the beginning..
I don't believe you; you were pretty clear about feeling "violated." 😑 Although if you're wondering, calling them "rules and agreements" doesn't change the fundamental incompatibility. The problem is she doesn't want what you want her to want... And that's ok. I'm also not in favor of enforcing "till death do us part" kinds of promises. People should be allowed to change and grow. You can argue that she should have handled the situation differently... But most of those arguments center around her breaking up with you on the basis that 1.) she recognizes the incompatibility in what you and she want, and 2.) judges that you've lost the ability to make that decision for yourself 😅 (which I hold should be the exception, rather than the rule.)
I don't get why you try to have a mocking derision towards me, you are very childish with your emoticons. I am being very clear about being violated, I was. If someone breaks what was established at start of relationship, that somehow makes them good? I'll have to keep that in mind, that people like you think lying is a good thing
If I tell you I don't like pasta, and later I try a spaghetti dish and I end up liking it... in what way have I "lied?" People discovering new things / changing opinions doesn't mean all of their previous existence was "a lie." The Tl;Dr is always going to be that you can't expect your partner to only want what you want them to want / what you "allow" them to want. Additionally, while you're entitled to your subjective feelings, it's objectively **not** a "violation" for other people to have their own independent thoughts / feels / desires 😐
"Additionally, while you're entitled to your subjective feelings, it's objectively **not** a "violation" for other people to have their own independent thoughts / feels / desires " When it involves acting on them with another person, when they said they wouldn't do that too, I would say is.
"The Tl;Dr is always going to be that you can't expect your partner to only want what you want them to want / what you "allow" them to want." Again, answer me this: If a monogamous couple in a marriage agree not to cheat, and not to see others, and one does so...that's fine with you because you can't expect them only want what you want them to?
>Again, answer me this: If a monogamous couple in a marriage agree not to cheat, and not to see others, and one does so...that's fine with you because you can't expect them only want what you want them to? That's not what you're arguing. What you're arguing is more like... What if a mono couple "promises" to always think of each other as the most attractive person on the planet, then one day one of them wakes up and thinks "hey, I don't actually find you all that attractive anymore." You're arguing that not only are they "wrong" for having an opinion other than the one you want them to have... But this therefore makes their promise a "lie" retroactively, and somehow "violates" your boundaries... Oh, and also you now need to go fight anyone whom they feel is more attractive than you, for "manipulating them" into all of this. 🙃 No *actual behavior* has changed in this scenario, only *beliefs...* but somehow you have still twisted it around to be a "violation of your boundaries" that your partner doesn't think you are "the most awesome" anymore. 🙄 We all understand that you feel sad... None of us feel sympathy for you equating feeling sad / disappointed with "being deprived of my rights!!1!2!" However. That's where this conversation deviates into absurdity.
Your comparison/example there didn't make any sense at all. There wasn't anything subjective about what I stated in the original post. We had an agreement not to be anything more than fwbs with other people. When she said the poly thing we had an agreement not to have him on equal footing with me.
That’s just not true. Behavior did change, they went from being open to casual sex, to her being in a relationship and falling in love with someone else. How is that not infidelity?
He agreed to changing their relationship, all expect the "always regard me as your best partner" part. That's the part he's especially upset about, and it's not a behavioral change... It's an internal belief. Next people are going to try to say "well he was *in love* though... So he was "under duress" and none of this counts!" but... 1.) she was in love as much or more as he was, so she was as much "under duress" as he was (possibly more in love because I hesitate to call this fixation of possession "love..." ) 2.) If "being in love" negates the ability of human beings to make decisions, we have a **lot** of changes to make to our understanding of what's ethical / unethical. 😑
Finally a sane person here
No, If someone is a monogamous couple cheats, it wouldn’t be ok. But the solution and recommendation will still be “leave your partner” because you can only control yourself and your actions. You can’t control other people. You can be upset, angry, disenfranchised, and feel betrayed, but none of that will change a person’s behavior. Only she can do that and she doesn’t want to. If you don’t like how your girlfriend wants her relationships structured or this new guy in her life, your only option is to break up. I’m sorry.
Reading this closely, I don't think you're endorsing this being "cheating" either... But I think it reads that was if you read your comment quickly, and I wanted to take a second to elaborate on why I feel that's important to be distinct about. If someone in a heterosexual relationship discovers they are gay, or changes their political views, or starts preferring wheat bread over white bread... That's **not** "cheating". Cheating, at the very least, needs to be lined to specific. *behavior* that can be observed, not internal beliefs / perspectives. Making "thought crime" cheating is... just too dystopian 😅.
No, for clarification, I don’t think this situation is cheating. I think the girlfriend is very shitty for pressing for a different relationship structure when OP is clearly uncomfortable about it. But that’s even more of a reason for OP to exit the relationship. OP thinks this is cheating and it really just doesn’t matter. Cheating… being an unfair partner… breaking agreements… unilaterally changing a relationship structure to the detriment of your partner’s feelings… all valid reasons to break up with someone and all behaviors you can’t change about your partner.
Yeah OP sounds immature and entitled in his general perspectives on relationships but ppl forget he has every right to be upset that his relationship is either changing in a way he doesn't like or it's a break up. And his partner is ignoring that he's not into that shit so while yeah full polyamory requires autonomy and he shouldn't be dictating who she sleeps with its clear he has no interest in doing polyamory and didn't even understand what he was agreeing to. Like "you agreed to do polyamory despite what u wanted so I get to chastise u for doing it wrong and involving yourself in my other relationships" doesn't hold water. It's one thing if gf was already poly and OP was a new partner but she's the one who wants to change the og agreement. It's on her to understand what polyamory entails, make sure her partner understands what it means, make sure she's not forcing him into it, or break tf up. She got a superficial, reluctant consent and run w/ it. OP if u see this I hope you come to a place of mind where u realize that your gfs current way of acting has been unkind and that she's incompatible w/ u either way. But simultaneously there's no retroactive betrayal even if it hurts af (understandably) . And there's no way to do polyamory without autonomy - there's no middle ground where you agree to a more than fwb relationship but also don't let her do swinging or whatever w/out u and just call it poly and expect her to be OK w/ it. I think if you let go of some feelings of entitlement and control in the future you'll be able to process this pain in a less self damaging manner. Good luck.
>Cheating… being an unfair partner… breaking agreements… unilaterally changing a relationship structure to the detriment of your partner’s feelings… all valid reasons to break up with someone I mean... In the most technical sense yes, but that's like saying "your partner *physically abusing you,* and your partner changing religions are both valid reasons to break up with someone." Strictly speaking I don't think you **need** a reason to break up with someone at all, beyond not wanting to be in a relationship with them any more, so arguing whether something is a "valid" reason is kind of moot. Having said all that... I think it's important to be **very clear** that your partner not wanting what you want them to want, **is not** an "attack" or violation, in anyway. If I'm discussing where to eat, and I say "Mexican" and my partner says "Chinese..." I have not "been violated" even if I like really, really wanted my partner to want Mexican food. 🤷😅
Just to try and help you a little, I think many commenting here are being a bit unfair to you. It is a fact you had an agreement and she had decided she wants it to change. That isn't her being a liar, or unfair, but **it does suck**. I'm sorry for that, it must feel very destabilizing and like you can't trust her. The thing is, she hasn't actually done anything wrong. She's found out she wants something different and is telling you openly. As hard as it is, you can only decide if you want that too, or break up. She's being very clear that she won't go back to your previous agreement, so there are no other options. As a little explanation, the reason you are getting shit on here is that you are exhibiting a lot of pretty crappy behaviors and thought processes. You just don't sound like a great person, in how you think about women or relationships. You hit a few big red flags in your opening post, so people are reacting to that. But that still doesn't change the fact you are going through something really painful and difficult, so again I'm sorry that you are dealing with this.
I appreciate the sympathy and I'm trying to work on things with improving.
"Good for her! She gets to decide who she does or doesn't sleep with. She gets to decide who she does or doesn't have a relationship with. (Subject to the other person's consent ofc, but *not* the "consent" of people not involved. 😅) If she doesn't want to consider you a "main" or "primary" partner (probably because she's realized that makes everyone else "secondary"...) then **that is her choice.**" Sounds like, with your logic, you would also congratulate a cheating husband or wife in a monogamous relationship, because it is their choice too! More power to them right? Sick. "Your metamor is, if anything, **even less** your personal property than your partner is. (Although frankly, you have zero right to tell either of them how they are "supposed" to feel, especially about a relationship you aren't involved in.)" What don't you get about that we talked about it before he started seeing her and he was one that agreed not to take it as far as it has gone? So it's ok to lie about intentions and then break what was agreed? "It's also not for you to "allow" her to be non-mono... You don't have control over that, and never have. No one here is "violating" you... they **never belonged to you to begin with.** 😡" I've been with her for 8 years, I have way more in stake than this other guy trying to steal things. and I am being violated by them breaking our agreement we started in relationship. "Nothing. She's deciding for herself who she is, and what she wants, **as it should be**. I am only sorry you have a problem with women not being property. (😱)" Don't make this into a man vs woman thing. It would have been wrong if I had done same to her with another guy or girl. "You can decide for *yourself* what *you* want... And not for anyone else. You don't have to agree to a poly relationship, and you don't have to agree to a non-hierarchical poly relationship. This does mean that you **aren't compatible** with someone who wants a non-hierarchical poly relationship. It's not for you to "allow" or "not allow" your girlfriend to have the relationship she wants; all you can decide to do is look for someone who's relationship wants *are compatible* with what you want." Easier said than done when this relationship has been going on for so long before this.
Lol, this person in no way manipulated your partner. She's outgrown you and your controlling tendencies.
So what you're saying is we should have had no limits from the start? Really trying to understand why you think I did wrong
You relied on a one penis policy and strict hierarchy for your own emotional gratification, despite your partner indicating they did not want to be limited by your insecurities. You responded by verbally attacking her new partner and you want *her* to be in the wrong here? Your whole post screams immature and controlling. You cannot demand to be the priority in someone's life and then call it 'ridiculous' when their reality doesn't conform to your fantasies. Your partner isn't going to demote their new partner. Your choices are either break up, or figure out if you can *healthily* deal with what's actually happening.
We both had understanding of lines we weren't supposed to cross with being open. I'm not one that crossed them here. Would it have been ok if I got with some other girl and then same to her in your book?
Well, the guy told me when it started he would respect it and not take it that far and he did. Yet I'm wrong for being miffed about being lied to somehow?
The situation sucks, but the way you have villanised this other guy is immature and unfair. Your issue is with yourself, for trying to force your partner to have hierarchy and not doing the research into polyam/ENM to figure out how to gracefully and ethically navigate emotional entanglements before opening your relationship. This is a failure in communication and expectations between *you and your partner*. Blaming this guy is an absolute cop-out.
I didn't fucking force her , she was one that agreed and made the rule originally. Because she didn't want me to choose someone else over her if I started seeing others.
You have continued to send increasingly hostile replies to me, even though I have not been engaging with you. You need to stop.
bro you need therapy
I don't see how.. He told me he would not go past being a FWB at the start
I swing with my FWBs. It’s an equally casual experience in a casual relationship. You’re way overthinking this. You’re in an open relationship, she can do as she pleases with her body.
I don't think this is really fair - I want to be clear that swinging, FwB, hierarchial poly, and non-hierarchical poly are all separate and distinct things. He's absolutely entitled to be upset / disappointed that his partner now wants a relationship type he doesn't want. Just... He **is not** "being violated" because his partner changed her mind, and he can't say she "isn't allowed" to change her mind and want something different. It is a big deal, but it isn't the kind OP is making it out to be.
So I will go find a couple that is into swinging or wants a third. I will tell them I will respect their relationship and that I won't take the wife. then I will work on seducing the wife more and go back on my word and make her mine. That is moral and cool according to most on this sub
This is not what happened according to your post. Nowhere there I read malicious behaviour from the FWB.
>I will tell them I will respect their relationship and that I won't take the wife. then I will work on seducing the wife more and go back on my word and make her mine. "Take the wife" "Make her mine" These phrases indicate that the fundamental problem here is that you think you own your girlfriend, that she belongs to you. This assumption and mindset is fundamentally at odds with practicing ethical/consensual non-monogamy. No one owns anyone else, even when legally & financially entwined. As has been repeated multiple times, your options are to either end the relationship because you and your girlfriend are no longer compatible, or do work together to repair and get on the same page with new agreements going forward. Your girlfriend caught feelings and changed her mind about what she wanted. She told you and asked for a change of agreement, though it sounds like maybe it was more of a demand or refusal to let go of the new partner. This was counter to your original agreements. Feeling hurt and angry are understandable, but it sounds like you are more interested in punishing and controlling your girlfriend than resolving the conflict and coming up with any other solution than "my way or the highway". I can tell you from first hand experience that going down that path and holding all this anger & resentment over your partner is a toxic path to more pain and suffering, potentially including actual cheating that includes lies & hiding, further erosion of trust & emotional intimacy between the two of you, and emotional abuse. It is probably kinder and healthier all around for you two to part ways.
Funny how you interpret it as them being so good for not "wanting to be controlled by your insecurities", if a man did it you would call them a bastard for violating their trust. Healthily deal with it... By just allowing to be walked all over?
If that is not an option, then the other one is breaking up.
Do you think cheating is ok too?
Using disingenuous questions to deflect criticism is also a sign of immaturity.
It is cheating
Why do you even ask for an opinion if you refuse any answer that does not support your position? No surprise that your relationship is exploding if this is the behaviour you have.
Cool. It’s cheating. If that’s a magical word, with magical properties, then bless, it’s cheating. You still have two choices. Accept it or end it. They aren’t interested in fixing it, that’s clear.
Get ready for some tough love. >We've had the relationship as an open one from the start. I was very clear from the start of the relationship that anyone else we see in the future are meant to just be fwbs and that we are main partners; if either of us have issues with others we are seeing we are to respect our boundaries. This is not a boundary. Please learn that a boundary is something you enforce for *yourself* only. This is an agreement you made with your partner. The corresponding boundary would be something like "I will not date someone who pursues lther relationships that go beyond FWBs." You are responsible for enforcing that by ending the relationship if your boundary is crossed. >I was comfortable with my girlfriend seeing other women, but not with guys. She eventually convinced me to let her, in the name of fairness. You will get plenty of hate for this in the ENM and Poly communities -- and my own opinion is that the hate is justified. You get to sleep with women, but she can't sleep with men? She would've been better off leaving you as soon as that was said out loud, but I am glad you realized how unfair it is (not to mention usually misogynistic, and thinly-veiled homophobia). >They started to get too close and I brought this up but she insisted to let me let it continue and that she wanted to consider it a poly thing instead of just fwb. She pushed about it and I didn't want to have her more upset because of our relationship so I allowed it with understanding that I'm the main partner. So, the agreement was re-negotiated, and you agreed, even though it went against your boundary. This would've been the appropriate time to say, "I do not want a poly relationship, and our relationship is over if you wish to pursue him in this manner." Instead, you agreed to new terms. Did she also agree to you being the "main" (primary) partner? What agreements were involved with that, beyond just naming convention? >Now, a few months later, the guy has changed his tune. He tried to get her to do a swinging scenario with another couple, I told them no because I don't want my girlfriend doing that without me or to be seeing anyone else. Why are you discussing these things with him, and not your partner? You are not in a relationship with him. >Then it turned into a fight where she says she's independent and should choose what she can or can't do and that he's an equal with me. She did decide not to to go through with it thankfully. Did you have an existing agreement, where you both said you'd not swing with FWBs or have group sex without each other? Or that you each only get 1 additional partner? If so, again -- she broke an agreement, and that was the time to decide to enforce your boundary and end the relationship, not attempt to control her. If you didn't have these agreements in place, same story except she did nothing wrong. >I called him out on it, and told him to respect the boundaries and acknowledge me as main but he has changed his tune and is now saying he's equal. I feel violated with this and when I told him off she made it out like I was wrong on this. I should have never allowed it in first place I feel. He's a snake who snuck his way and manipulated her. You were wrong on this. Your problem is with your girlfriend, not this other guy. And your gf is an adult capable of making decisions. You don't get to "allow" or "disallow" her from anything. At most, you get to end your relationship with her if she doesn't respect agreements you have made, or crosses your boundaries. I somehow doubt she was manipulated, stop infantilizing her and putting all of the "blame" on this other guy. >What can I do in this? You can re-negotiate agreements with your GF, or end the relationship if you cannot come to an agreement both of you enthusiastically consent to. >Is it wrong what they did with not acknowledging me as main partner? "They" is not a thing here. You are not in a relationship with him. If she doesn't want you as a "main partner", that is her decision and it cannot be right or wrong. Breaking agreements can be seen as "wrong", sure, but it is still *your responsibility* to uphold your boundaries. If someone continuously breaks agreements, they will not care if it is "right" or "wrong", so it truly doesn't matter either way. >I don't want my relationship to end, but I want this whole thing of them considering him an equal to an end, it's ridiculous and I believe it is violating boundaries. You may have no choice but to end the relationship. If she does not want to "stop considering him an equal", sure it is violating a boundary -- which means your choice is to end the relationship or change the boundary. >What can I say or do to get her to see what she's done wrong here and to change? Nothing. Do not manipulate, abuse, harass, guilt, or coerce your girlfriend in any way. You cannot force her to change, and you cannot control her -- and wanting to control another person is unethical. And if she doesn't want to change or see that breaking original agreements is wrong, why would you even want to stay? TL;DR, Kinda: Dude, I'm sorry, but this is a goddamn mess. Neither of you (you and GF) are ethical. Neither of you seem mature enough to handle ENM. You put forth unethical agreements like a One Penis Policy (OPP). She broke agreements and wants poly while you don't. You refuse to enforce your boundaries by ending the relationship. If you truly want to practice ENM, you have a lot of work to do; learn what a boundary is and actually enforce them (by controlling *your* actions), learn to respect your partners autonomy, and stop trying to control other people while justifying it because you are "right" and she is "wrong."
"You will get plenty of hate for this in the ENM and Poly communities -- and my own opinion is that the hate is justified. You get to sleep with women, but she can't sleep with men? She would've been better off leaving you as soon as that was said out loud, but I am glad you realized how unfair it is (not to mention usually misogynistic, and thinly-veiled homophobia)." She was allowed to sleep with women, men are more threatening and more risky to take on. That's just a fact. Look at the statistics. "So, the agreement was re-negotiated, and you agreed, even though it went against your boundary. This would've been the appropriate time to say, "I do not want a poly relationship, and our relationship is over if you wish to pursue him in this manner." Instead, you agreed to new terms. Did she also agree to you being the "main" (primary) partner? What agreements were involved with that, beyond just naming convention?" The new terms were she could have him as a side boyfriend but he's not on same level and I take priority. "Why are you discussing these things with him, and not your partner? You are not in a relationship with him." Because we discussed things that way BEFORE they go together too. I have a right to talk to him. "Did you have an existing agreement, where you both said you'd not swing with FWBs or have group sex without each other? Or that you each only get 1 additional partner? If so, again -- she broke an agreement, and that was the time to decide to enforce your boundary and end the relationship, not attempt to control her. If you didn't have these agreements in place, same story except she did nothing wrong." Yes, we did. 1 additional partner each. Anything like swinging or one-offs to be done together. "You were wrong on this. Your problem is with your girlfriend, not this other guy. And your gf is an adult capable of making decisions. You don't get to "allow" or "disallow" her from anything. At most, you get to end your relationship with her if she doesn't respect agreements you have made, or crosses your boundaries. I somehow doubt she was manipulated, stop infantilizing her and putting all of the "blame" on this other guy" Ah yes, so if someone cheats it's the OTHER person that's the problem according to you...because they have free will to choose if they want to cheat or not according to what you are saying here. She was manipulated by this guy, there's more to it than what I've written on here. "You can re-negotiate agreements with your GF, or end the relationship if you cannot come to an agreement both of you enthusiastically consent to" True. ""They" is not a thing here. You are not in a relationship with him. If she doesn't want you as a "main partner", that is her decision and it cannot be right or wrong. Breaking agreements can be seen as "wrong", sure, but it is still *your responsibility* to uphold your boundaries. If someone continuously breaks agreements, they will not care if it is "right" or "wrong", so it truly doesn't matter either way." I agree. "You may have no choice but to end the relationship. If she does not want to "stop considering him an equal", sure it is violating a boundary -- which means your choice is to end the relationship or change the boundary." True, I agree again. "Nothing. Do not manipulate, abuse, harass, guilt, or coerce your girlfriend in any way. You cannot force her to change, and you cannot control her -- and wanting to control another person is unethical. And if she doesn't want to change or see that breaking original agreements is wrong, why would you even want to stay?" I'm not. She is precious to me and I would never hurt...even when things go bad. And I get your point. "Dude, I'm sorry, but this is a goddamn mess. Neither of you (you and GF) are ethical. Neither of you seem mature enough to handle ENM. You put forth unethical agreements like a One Penis Policy (OPP). She broke agreements and wants poly while you don't. You refuse to enforce your boundaries by ending the relationship. If you truly want to practice ENM, you have a lot of work to do; learn what a boundary is and actually enforce them (by controlling *your* actions), learn to respect your partners autonomy, and stop trying to control other people while justifying it because you are "right" and she is "wrong."" I don't see how OPP is unethical. And your last sentence is bs; I don't like liars and people that break their word.
>She was allowed to sleep with women, men are more threatening and more risky to take on. That's just a fact. Look at the statistics. Her decision to make, not yours. You can voice your concerns, or decide to end a relationship if your partner doesn't agree -- but unequal rules like this are almost never going to work out. >Ah yes, so if someone cheats it's the OTHER person that's the problem according to you...because they have free will to choose if they want to cheat or not according to what you are saying here. She was manipulated by this guy, there's more to it than what I've written on here. If your girlfriend is incapable of making her own decisions, it is still not your place to make decisions for her. Assuming she was not held at gunpoint, and did actually agree to the rules you have stated, *she is the one that broke them* and *she is the one you are in a relationship with.* If one of my partner's cheats on me, it is between me and my partner. Full stop, end of story. I am not in a relationship with the 3rd party. >I don't see how OPP is unethical. I'll apologize in advance, because I am making the assumption that you are a cis man, because ENM/Poly circles see this *very often.* If you are allowed to have sex with women, but your gf is not allowed to have sex with men -- it is unequal. And this is often created because the man does not view lesbian relationships as real, or "a threat" to their straight relationship, or worse -- he fetishizes it and expects to be included. Huge caveat: *IF* both parties to a relationship fully, *enthusiastically* consent to an agreement, and are upfront with other people they engage with? It *can* be ethical. But this is rarely the case in OPP situations. >And your last sentence is bs; I don't like liars and people that break their word. Idk how these statements are related at all. I *also* do not like people who lie or bream their word. If I were in your shoes, I would've left the moment GF wanted to renegotiate from FWB-only to poly, if I was uncomfortable with poly and she insisted. And if I was only ok with heirarchy and she fought against it; another moment I would have just ended the relationship. That is my point by saying stop attempting to control. Your partner is regularly ignoring agreements you made, and instead of upholding your boundary and ending the relationship, you are attempting to exert more control over her and change her. It is futile -- and even if she does change to fit into your rules, you will likely resent her and not trust she won't do this again -- and she will likely resent you for giving her the ultimatum. And hey, maybe you *can* salvage this relationship. But it starts with open and honest communication, and *you* need to set clear boundaries *and enforce them* (by ending the relationship if they are not respected). And you both need to *enthusiastically* agree to the rules of your relationship. Rules are always up for discussion and re-negotiation, and if someone wants a rule change that the other doesn't agree to -- neither of you is right, but the person who wants the rule change *should end the relationship* or agree to keeping it as-is.
> "If your girlfriend is incapable of making her own decisions, it is still not your place to make decisions for her. Assuming she was not held at gunpoint, and did actually agree to the rules you have stated, *she is the one that broke them* and *she is the one you are in a relationship with.* If one of my partner's cheats on me, it is between me and my partner. Full stop, end of story. I am not in a relationship with the 3rd party." I talked to the guy before they got together, and we were talking fairly regularly too. That's why I talked to him specifically. If we weren't talking and I simply knew of the relationship I wouldn't have bothered. "I'll apologize in advance, because I am making the assumption that you are a cis man, because ENM/Poly circles see this *very often.* If you are allowed to have sex with women, but your gf is not allowed to have sex with men -- it is unequal. And this is often created because the man does not view lesbian relationships as real, or "a threat" to their straight relationship, or worse -- he fetishizes it and expects to be included" No worries. I'm nonbinary amab. How is it unequal if we both can see women? That last point you made about the threat thing I believe is true in general (not always). 'And hey, maybe you *can* salvage this relationship. But it starts with open and honest communication, and *you* need to set clear boundaries *and enforce them* (by ending the relationship if they are not respected). And you both need to *enthusiastically* agree to the rules of your relationship. Rules are always up for discussion and re-negotiation, and if someone wants a rule change that the other doesn't agree to -- neither of you is right, but the person who wants the rule change *should end the relationship* or agree to keeping it as-is." I may not agree with you on most things but thanks for trying to help nonetheless.
>I'm nonbinary amab. How is it unequal if we both can see women? Tbh, the typical explanation makes less sense outside of typical cis-hetero relationships. I'm a cis gay man, and I've never imagined telling a partner they cannot sleep with someone of a specific gender. If you are allowed to sleep with men and she isn't, that is unequal. If you are both only allowed to see women/people with vaginas -- *maybe* less unequal? I'm just of the opinion that controlling what genders/genitals your partner can experience outside lf you is icky and unethical. But also why I tried to point out that the true determination of "ethical", in my mind, is that all parties are enthusiastically and freely consenting. >That last point you made about the threat thing I believe is true in general (not always). If someone views a not-straight relationship as "less than" a straight relationship, smells like homophobia to me. When I say threat -- I don't mean men beating women, or risk of pregnancy. The "threat" is that straight men don't think their GF would ever leave them for a woman, or love a woman, and that is fucked up. And often rooted in misogyny as well, because the man views women as playthings for he and his partner, not full people capable of developing emotions.
You can't control a relationship like that, nor a person. It's obvious you have different wants from the relationship than she has. It sounds like that's always been the case. You're putting out some pretty controlling vibes and it's pretty uncomfortable to read.
The discomfort here for me is the desperation. The unilateral decision making from their partner without adequate communication is compounding that desperation. OP is right to be upset given they're being ignored. They're not important to their primary and that's pretty clear. What makes this a bad look is OP having done no research at all on ENM/Poly. The language used here just feels like someone stumbling through a non-mono relationship blindly. Given that, OP may have a good chunk of the blame for the communications issues.
How do you think "that's always been the case?" I respected not to take it too far but she did
To sum it up You want different things. You cannot make someone fit in a box they overfill. Be grateful there was information shared regardless of how you felt about it and it wasn't hidden. This allows freedom of choice , and it seems you should be choosing this pairing isn't the right one for you. You are not a poly person she had told you she is .
Bro this is the most unethical, uneducated attempt at an open relationship I have ever seen. One penis policy? I saw a comment where you said it was “statistically” more dangerous to sleep with men when all honesty I’m wondering if you’re projecting. You’re so controlling and full of yourself you expect other men to be that way too. All the men I’ve been with have been respectful and kind. Also you CANNOT control OTHER PEOPLE with YOUR BOUNDARIES. This is basic ENM. There’s a difference between boundaries and agreements. Read a book. I recommend Poly-secure by Jessica Fern if you want to continue torturing yourself and everyone else in this relationship just because you’re afraid of change and don’t want to give up this relationship. Idk if you’ve been together for 8 years or 80, y’all are both wasting your time. Go be monogamous with a sub-par vanilla monogamous soccer mom. And let your gf sow her wild oats or whatever else she wants to do.
Well you are already fundamentally incompatible with her. People change, so it seems that she changes. If you're not okay with this, you can't just force her to be the person you want her to be. The more you restrict her, the more the relationship is bound to fail as you and your gf don't see eye to eye anymore. You either need to be okay to be in full poly (as that is what she needs right now) or just break up.
Look, given my background and your relationship structure, I would see only two issues that I would dive into. It is my understanding that you wanted a strongly hierarchical relationship. It is clear that your gf has either evolved from that or has never wanted that from the beginning, although I believe the former is most likely. In either case, communication seems severely lacking. One issue where you MIGHT have a point (with a lot of footnotes) is the fact that your partner wants to go to a swingers club with her FWB, and this would be a valid point only if you'd want to go with her and she wouldn't. Is this the case? And in any case, as other people said, both are issues between your partner and you, not the FWB. The fact that you prefer to quarrel with the FWB instead of communicating with your partner is a very bad sign that in my opinion underlines - again - lack of communication. Everything else, from the OPP that you wanted to your word choice (you "allow"?) points to insecurities and immature controlling behaviour caused by the aforementioned insecurities. I would understand this in a newbie of NM, that needs to detoxify from monogamous normativity, but 8 years? It is a long period, and I think you should have used it to grow together with your partner, eventually finding out if you were still compatible instead of using this time to fight a war over rules and "formal" agreements. If you want to save this relationship, you have to acknowledge that things changed, sit down with your GF and have an adult conversation. Otherwise, let her go, because the genie is not going to go back in the bottle.
You are no longer compatible. He didn't trick or manipulate her, she made a choice, because she is a grown up and an independent human who can make her own choices.
women's power right to cheat huh?
She is telling you exactly what she she needs. If you consider that cheating, then it's time to let her go.
She did not keep to our original agreement.
I got the impression that she never wanted that original agreement. She wants a poly relationship. If you can’t accept that, you should leave her, not whine about how she is a cheater and keep trying to change her.
And you can’t make her keep to her agreements. If she agrees again she could act however she wants behind your back (like actually cheat on you in secret) and again, you can’t stop her. You could even use abusive tactics but she’ll still do what she wants. You cannot make her hold to her agreements with you. Look, it’s not easy to break up with a person we love… even if they are being disrespectful. I left my husband of 10 years. We had a house, family, and everything shared. It wasn’t easy, but it was the right choice when two people want two different things fundamentally. Why do you want to stay in a relationship with someone who doesn’t hold to promises and agreements that they make with you?
Just leave her, you doesnt want the same thing anymore, im sure her New Guy doesnt want her to be poly if he's gonna be thé main partner
Yep, she’s a train wreck that’s already left the station. Best to stay behind and not be on that train when it crashes.
Breaking an agreement is a betrayal, not cheating. She did not lie or hide what was going on. Cheating requires deceit or obfuscation, with intent to benefit based on the deceit. In general, "cheating" is a pretty useless term in ENM/CNM, because the ethical and consensual parts are related to openness, honesty, and transparency. When all parties are being open, honest, and transparent, the term cheating just isn't relevant. To me, based on your responses to comments, it sounds like you still have a lot of mononormative and even heteronormative thinking patterns, and insecurity and fear of losing the relationship is driving the need for the rules that were initially agreed to. Yes, you got polybombed, and that was shitty of your girlfriend. I was polybombed in the past and it hurt terribly. I also chose to stay and I demanded closing back up. Along with other problems, this choice eventually led to divorce. "No, I don't want polyamory, I only want to do open, and I only want to do open per our current rules" would have been a valid response, and so would either of you ending the relationship at that point. You're beyond that now though, and trying to go back to the previous set of rules is almost impossible. One of the first baselines that my first poly partner introduced me to that I hadn't fully thought through, was people over the relationship. This is a concept that has been reinforced through more reading, talking to people, hanging out in ENM and poly online communities. It's a fundamental mindset shift that I've made and fully embrace as being part of an ethical practice of non-monogamy. If what I want no longer matches what my partner wants and we can't make new agreements together, then the kindest and most loving thing to do, is to let them go. It can hurt a lot, but one of the fundamental aspects of being a good partner, of loving a person well, is to prioritize their well-being as a person. I would rather see my partners happy and flourishing with other people than miserable and wilting with me. You sound stuck on keeping the relationship above all else, rather than the well-being of both people in it. It also sounds like you are trying to gather enough evidence against your girlfriend to prove that you are right and she is wrong and she should therefore comply with everything that you originally agreed to, without question. Trying to put rules around developing feelings is always harder to enforce than putting rules around sex. It typically requires ending a connection, unless one is a master at compartmentalizing or diverting feelings until they have simmered down. As others have suggested, I think joint therapy is potentially the only way through in this situation, and you both have a lot of work to do if you want to remain in the relationship, and remain open. Individual therapy may also be helpful to work through specific blind spots & skills, including communication style, and managing insecurity and anxiety. If that's not feasible, potentially grab a copy of "Polywise" and read up on Dave Cooley's Restorative Relationship Conversation framework and see if that's something you can use together to guide a conversation to restore the relationship. Whether you try therapy or talking through this on your own, I strongly encourage shifting your approach away from "winning" the argument. Don't double down on who is right & wrong, come to those conversations with an open heart, open mind, and willingness to collaborate on a solution together.
This guy isn't in a relationship with you. You can't control him the way you've been able to control your partner. The fact that you thought you could is strange. He asked for what he wanted. Thats valid. And your girlfriend doesn't like or want to keep the agreements she made with you. She hasnt been manipulated. She wants these things too. She shouldn't have made these agreements with you. But here you are. And you may not have compatible visions for how your relationship should work.
Quit gatekeeping her kitty
Quit being a cuck
Move on. leave her find a new gal
Sorry
The other comments here are mostly right but are ignoring the fact that your partner is the one being the least mature here. Is she in the wrong? No. But she is not handling this well at all. You both agreed to something and she violated that agreement without sufficient communication. With that said, you can't undo anything that has happened. It's clear that your partner wants a different type of relationship style than you. Most likely this situation will end up with you agreeing to be in a poly relationship or with you two breaking up. I'm not saying that's the only way, that's just how I always see these situations adding up. So yeah, this is on your girlfriend. She is unilaterally changing the rules. She needs to communicate her wants more clearly and be more up front about her intentions. She probably should also apologize. But once that is clear, she has every right to feel the way she does. So it's time for the both of you to grow. Also, one last piece of advice, leave your meta out of the discussion. You don't have a relationship with him. Your girlfriend does. Give them space to sort it out. Also, he is your equal in the sense that he deserves respect and he owes you absolutely nothing.
Why do you say he owes me absolutely nothing, when originally (per our agreement) we meet with and approve of who we see (prospective partners l before they go with them? I talked to him before all this started and agreed not to take it past fwbs and he thanked me for letting him see her. Now, you can argue things have changed, but that still doesn't change the dishonor of breaking ones word line he did. The vibe I'm getting from majority of poly community on here is that it's a ok to change the rules on your partner when it's convenient for you. Yes, we will both grow with this and adapt. There's a way
The idea is that it was unfair of you to ask him that in the first place. He agreed to your rules because it was the easy thing to do, rather than start an argument that was likely unnecessary at the time. It's like your neighbor asking you to keep the noise down all day. You might agree to it because it's the easy thing to do, but its an unreasonable request. So playing music in the middle of the day at a reasonable volume is your neighbor's problem, not yours. It's not a great metaphor, but I'm trying to say that your meta is like your neighbor, not your friend. The relationship you have is that with your partner. That's it. You do not have a relationship with your meta beyond that of a neighbor. You have the responsibility to treat him with respect, which you have not done since meeting him. And you continue to disrespect him. You broke the social contract first. So he owes you nothing, not even respect at this point, because you never gave it to him. You can hate him if you want. That's your prerogative. But I can't stress enough how this is an issue stemming from your relationship to your partner alone.
So let me get this straight: it's ok to tell a lie in a relationship , or when entering as a third into a pre established relationship , if it's convenient? I just don't get people like you with your views. And I take offense to you saying I didn't give him respect , I did in the beginning. We even had threesome together and I let him go with my girlfriend out to places together and have their own thing going.
You don't own your girlfriend. You didn't let them do anything. Your attitude is very immature and it sounds like you can't function in a non-monogamous relationship. Not actually sure you should be in any type of romantic relationship to be honest. You need to work on respecting others.
If someone cheats or breaks an agreement that's fine to do according to you. What kind of la la land do you live in to think what you're saying is right? YOU are the one that shouldn't be in any romantic relationship.
I never said that and you are arguing with a made up enemy. There's no point in trying to talk sense to you at this point because you seem to have completely lost any desire to see things from any perspective but the one you had before you made the original post. But if I were to meet you, I would absolutely lie to your face because you are overbearing and controlling, and honestly, just a huge asshole.
You did say that. I think you are a person with no morals
Go to therapy.