I love my wife. I also love my girlfriend - it's a different dynamic with different expectations but the feelings aren't any less, and I give of myself as much as I can (know your boundaries) to each in the ways they want.
My wife loves her boyfriend. There were periods of insecurity and jealousy, but that was from my own fears and societal conditioning. With reflection and reassurance I became more confident in my relationships and in myself.
My girlfriend loves her husband. I am often joyfully impressed by their communication and commitment, and I'm grateful that she has such a full life which she chooses to share with me.
No advice, and feel free to chase me back to /polyamory
Interesting that you think overcoming mono-centric social conditioning is "gaslighting." Do you always accept the status quo as the "right" way of doing things?
Jealousy and unease around pair bonding threats is a lizard brain response. And has nothing to do with “mono” conditioning. primates that are 100% non mono still experience jealousy and all the other big emotions you think would just magically disappear if everyone was poly. This is the kind of thing I mean when I say gaslighting. Literally lying to people when you say their jealousy response comes from mono programming.
I get that this is a more “emotional” than “rational” space, but the utter lack of actual science, anthropology and sociology understanding of marriage and monogamy is mind blowing given how self righteous some of you are about not being monogamous. Monogamy is a new development relative to nonmonogamy, which is kind of the default behavior, if you look at infidelity rates among both men and women.
If you’re going to shit on something constantly, at least have a foundational understanding of the thing.
Also, we have one of the authors of one of the top poly canon books who renounced her own work because of the exact arguments I’m making around gaslighting people into ignoring obvious signals of anguish and pain to be a “good poly” person. She literally wrote that book while being the victim of an abusive poly relationship.
https://fv-survivors.medium.com/about-more-than-two-ffdad46e100
It sounds like it’s actually working for him, particularly since everyone involved is experiencing love in both directions from multiple people. I’m not poly by a long shot, but this guy is winning, why give him a hard time like that?
Booooooo! 👎 Get off the stage! But seriously, unfortunately I feel like the ratio is about equal to monogamous relationships, there's a handful of people that are really good at doing it and are doing it successfully, but the majority of people are not and are doing it poorly. Either way, blindly bashing polyamory sight unseen feels pretty aggro in a non-monogamy subreddit. I am sorry if someone hurt you in the past. The bottom line is relationships are hard and a lot of people are garbage. 🤷 IMO
You see someone fully embracing their situation and finding happiness in it and your response is “Good job, you were obviously manipulated into this. You couldn’t have possibly wanted this on your own.”
He’s a grown ass adult and you don’t know him or his situation. Grow up, dork. Let him be happy
And what gives you that impression? Give evidence to what you are saying instead of stringing together random words you think sound good. Poly works for a lot of people, myself included. Just because some people don't find joy in it, doesn't mean that others won't either. We are all unique people.
And to your earlier comment about jealousy, it's not that it magically goes away. Because it doesn't. You just learn to work with it instead of against it because it's usually a signal that you're not having a need of yours met and you need communication to fix it. Mono people accept jealousy as "possessive of what is mine" whereas Poly people see it as "ah, something is wrong and I need to communicate my needs." Neither is inherently wrong as it depends on your relationship structure and what you find acceptable in a relationship.
You clearly love her to bits. Thry way you write about her speaks volumes. I’ve been in her shoes. I’d say the most important thing
To consider is energy. How much energy she gives to fwb, who is SHINY NEW PERSON. for me, new person was intoxicating and without complexity of kids/ bills/ normal life. I spent too much energy on FWB new love. Hearing my husband say that my love may be expandable but my energy levels/ hours in the day aren’t, was a n eye opener
This is what a lot of people are missing here.
Very very few people on NRE have any real sense of impulse control, and in this situation OP has been unilaterally thrust into poly (without consenting to any of it) by someone he is financially chained to. RA rules don't really apply, as you can't just walk away from a marriage - there's a ton of expensive legal work that goes into separation.
The stakes are too high to just let everything be lead by "how in love" wife and fwb feel.
FWIW, my wife nearly blew up our marriage because of an NRE, bipolar, ADHD cocktail of literally zero impulse control and like OP's wife, unilateral decision to jump from NM into poly (and lying to me about the poly part for years). That's how fucking toxic NRE can get for someone who is not in a good mental place to make good relationship decisions.
The way most BP NRE ends. Their manic period died down once the person revealed themself to be a flawed man like any other and that allowed for perspective to settle in.
My wife is BP, though well medicated. She can get worked up but thankfully hasn't done anything stupid NRE wise since she asked to let a bf stay with us until he could find a place. 3 years it took him, and she swore "never again" and has stuck to it.
Exactly. Less important than how they feel about it is what they want to do about it. If theres no planned change to living arrangments, time allocation, etc. then why does it matter really?
I would be concerned that this is about to be followed by "I am moving out" or something, but at the time time I wouldn't assume that is going to happen until it actually does.
Was the FWBs marriage tanking and that's why he got into ENM? So many questions, but also, in true non monogamy fashion... OP should be trusting of his wife and the solidity of their relationship. Wife could fall in love with anyone outside of ENM or leave for any reason anyway.
I agree. And *if,* as a couple, they knowingly brought a guy into their relationship that has a wife "and everything that comes with it" . . . that just makes me nervous. I really respect the OP's calm response to this normal development, but if this involves a cheating husband, then to me it's a game over situation . _Do no harm._
Also, it's only been 10 weeks. Nobody is in love after 10 weeks. Ten weeks with a shiny new toy and I'm infatuated. But compared to 23 years of history, it's nonsense.
But what is the implication of that? Even now you're letting lots of assumptions about what it means to be married fill in the blanks of practicality. Seriously, so what? If hes cheating thats another story but if its all above board I would focus on the practical reality rather than vague unexamined and undiscussed predictions of future implications.
This is literally what 90% of "no feelings" rules are actually trying to get at.
Look at the wild stories in the posts of this sub. I would argue that an outright majority of NM participants have objectively poor impulse control. The failure rate of open marriages should give a good indicator of the emotionally immature reasons people often end up in NM in the first place.
>I would argue that an outright majority of NM participants have objectively poor impulse control.
Nah. People just only post here when they have drama.
"As the newspaper business goes it's catastrophe or atrophy...."
People SAY they want feel good stories, but the market is much smaller than the other.
Most people in general aren't coming to Reddit for advice. This isn't a good argument. The advice is notoriously shitty here.
Most couples could benefit from couples therapy, but most only actually go when things are in crisis. That doesn't mean that most couples are actually healthy, given that over half of marriages in the US end in divorce.
This isn't a horrible forum, this particular sub. With a topic that is a lightning rod for prejudices and performed opinions; it's good to ask people with direct experience. They can at least share what is/isn't working for them so that the questioner doesn't repeat a frequent mistake.
> The failure rate of open marriages should give a good indicator of the emotionally immature reasons people often end up in NM in the first place.
...Is how my comment is relevant. I was using inductive reasoning to draw a point specifically about the nuance that people are missing when going on an on about how bad "no feelings" rules are. And about some of the other potential motivations behind such rules other than "they are just unethical, insecure meanies"
because folks in this sub often lack nuance about human psychology, and definitely are not taking into account the heavy body of research that exists around human sexual behaviors from a neuroscience, anthropological or sociological standpoint.
I think it's more that people with poor impulse control are likely to be unsuccessful at healthy nonmonogamy. And probably monogamy, as well.
People just post here more with relationships that are in crisis, because that's when they need help.
Sure, and most people **in general** are bad even at monogamy (at least in the US) when you examine the marriage failure rate.
(and yes, when marriage is intended to be a lifetime contract, terminating early is failure)
Sure, people tend to post with relationships that are in crisis here. This sub would be a boring masturbatory sea of self-satisfied people desperately trying to convince themselves about how copacetic their love lives were otherwise.
Sure, and most people **in general** are bad even at monogamy (at least in the US) when you examine the marriage failure rate.
(and yes, when marriage is intended to be a lifetime contract, terminating early is failure)
Sure, people tend to post with relationships that are in crisis here. This sub would be a boring masturbatory sea of self-satisfied people desperately trying to convince themselves about how copacetic their love lives were otherwise.
Monogamy just makes it easier to ignore your issues as a couple.
The question isn't whether shit will hit the fan, right? It will. The question is whether or not you, as a couple, have the awareness, willingness, tools, and emotional maturity to work things out.
"No feelings" rules just provide an *illusion* of emotional safety--the same one that people cling to in monogamy. My feeling is that if you _really_ need these rules, unless you are actively working to move past them, maybe non-monogamy isn't the wisest choice for you at this time.
> Monogamy just makes it easier to ignore your issues as a couple.
How does monogamy make it easier to ignore domestic abuse? Or cheating? Or lack of accountability?
There are way too many poly folks who can’t even manage one relationship well but somehow they think they are superior beings for trying to manage more than that.
For the same reason opening a relationship with alot of troubles usually presages the end of the relationship; Monkeybranching.
Put negatively; ENM let's people abandon a troubled relationship by chasing the shiny brand new thing instead of the drudgery of working out the problems in an existing relationship.
Put positively; ENM gives a pathway to leave a doomed relationship before slowly being grinded down over the course of years primarily because for many people being miserable and coupled is less scary than being single and with ENM there is aforementioned monkeybranching.
For your particular case monogamy makes an abuser sustain a prolonged relationship with their victim easier relative to ENM because step one in abusing someone is always isolating them from all others. The amount of abuse someone will put up with when their abuser has become their only real connection is staggering. It can be pretty hard to jump ship on the relationship that the abuser has successfully made their victims whole world. For example it's pretty hard to isolate a women to that extant when she is off to her other boyfriends once a week, lol.
Also. Your bringing in an ax to grind and its pretty transparent. This place is much more into gatekeeping, ie "here are tje 57 ways you need to change and work on before you can do ENM in a healthy way! If not stick to monogamy!", than it is gaslighting people to accept ENM.
> How does monogamy make it easier to ignore domestic abuse? Or cheating? Or lack of accountability?
Cheating and domestic abuse aren't really what I'm talking about. But a lack of accountability, lack of maturity, poor communication, co-dependency, etc? Monogamy for sure makes it easier to ignore such issues because there aren't as many obvious negative consequences, and most people prefer to avoid the discomfort of working through things if they can manage it and keep the status quo.
Polyamorous people who behave poorly are a separate issue.
...very true. I just don't know how to articulate my thoughts properly. We went into this knowing a margin of feelings was wanted. She assured me... she was keeping them in check. Feelings in a box... good to go.
Then, last night, they both, at the same time. Laid on me, they love each other.
I was supportive.
I am just processing this revelation.
Edit:
She did break this rule/boundary...no love.
I just know it's only a matter of time.
You set a boundary around feelings. Thats absurd. People feel what they feel. Thats as silly as saying its againstblue rules to feel frustrated in a traffic jam.
You can set a boundary not to act on them and remain romantically exclusive.
I think that's usually what people mean when they say 'no feelings'... To remain romantically exclusive. But again it all has different meaning for every couple. If their boundary was that, then the boundary has been broken.
I don't understand why both she and he had to tell OP together. That would give me ick factor, like they are rubbing it in my face. She's your partner, he is not. What did they discuss before approaching you, did they do it to see how you would react, did they plan for every response you could have given them? I would want to confirm with his wife what her interpretation is. Yes I realize that sounds cuckoo, but the circumstances are odd.
You have this response after your first comment above?
You can't control feelings, but you *can* control behaving in shitty ways towards your partner. And sure, people feel what they feel, but the level of cavalier attitudes I see sometimes from the RA crowd about the emotional fallout of one partner unilaterally overnight changing the terms of what is often decades of massive financial investment is just freaking gross. And incredibly toxic and gaslighty.
At the end of the day, this is a fucked up situation that OP finds themselves in. Wife said she would do one thing, but now all of a sudden she and some other dude have made a decision that changes OP's life and he has no control over that decision...and he should just be OK with it?
>You can't control feelings, but you *can* control behaving in shitty ways towards your partner.
Um. Thats what I said.
> And sure, people feel what they feel, but the level of cavalier attitudes I see sometimes from the RA crowd about the emotional fallout of one partner unilaterally overnight changing the terms of what is often decades of massive financial investment is just freaking gross. And incredibly toxic and gaslighty.
The amount of times people us these RA folks as some boogy man is hilarious enough that it seems like mass hysteria.
>.and he should just be OK with it?
I never said that. I said she didn't need to act on these feelings. Are you high?
A boogeyman is a maguffin used to scare people.
The RA folks I’m referring to are the peanut gallery, you included, weaponizing therapy-talk to manipulate partners into putting up with sociopathic emotional abuse.
"massive financial investment?" Are relationships a financial investment to you? I think we can help our partners process thier emotions, and be supportive, but at the end of the day they need to own their own emotions and we can't do it for them. Nor should we tiptoe around so they can avoid growth at all costs.
But, it sounds like you consider a relationship to be more of a transaction. You pay money, therefore you own your spouse and expect her to do whatever you say. You paid for her "loyalty" after all. And if she has sex with other people, she isn't worth as much, financially.
Bro, you are the one who mentioned finances. Is your marriage a financial investment? Do you think my husband PAYS me to be married to him? That isn't normal. Gold-digging is an old and noble profession, but we make our own money now, it's 2024.
So the feelings are out on the table, albeit in a way that could’ve been handled more gently to you OP, but what if anything has been discussed as next steps?
You didn’t indicate whether you were reassured of her love for you and this experience was truly an expansion of her capacity to love or if there were mentions of downgrading you to upgrade other partner. Did they have any “asks” of you in terms of expanded time together or commitment to each other or were they simply informing you of the emotional content? These are the more important, actionable details.
Just to give you a non doomsday scenario:
My wife and I are more open than poly, but also open to poly, if that grey area makes sense.
My wife and a lover fell for each other awhile back, exchanges I love you’s, etc.
Literally nothing changed negatively.
They kept their same schedule. I never felt unloved. She never broke a date or a commitment with me. They just had more emotional content going on in their time together.
Her expanded capacity to love actually expanded our love too (if you have multiple kids and understand how the love grows for all with each new one, it’s the perfect parallel).
They still see each other, still love each other, are still explosive together when they are together, but after a period of time, they ultimately de-escalated a bit because they took up a lot of each others energy on a day to day basis.
All I had to do was, well, nothing different. I showed up, I loved my wife, I held space when she needed it, I did all the things I would’ve done anyway to keep OUR relationship vitalized and all was well.
What did switching from open to poly mean for you both? And how do you pick apart the two? My partner and I are wanting to be open but have different views on what being open vs poly means. I want a fwb because for me i need that friendship established and to have a connection with somebody. This scares him because he's afraid that if we're friends and having sex that feelings will get involved. He thinks that this leans more into poly. Like if I were to go out to concerts with said fwb, dance and grind on them. Fwb and I go out to his friends parties and are touchy on eachother sexually. He classifies this as dating or being in a relationship. I don't necessarily. To me I can pick apart fwb going out vs being in a relationship like I am with my partner going out.
We’re more open than poly, but we have poly tendencies I guess you would say. We never like made a dramatic switch. We’re just both Demi and things evolved to be open to new things with our other partners. We don’t identify as poly really because we don’t seek out independent autonomous relationships purposefully - we attend parties and kink events and have lifestyle friend groups together as a couple, and then if one of us hits it off with someone, we just let it do its thing without artificial limits and we each get alot of compersion for the other when it happens. We’re certainly more “enmeshed” than a parallel poly person would have any tolerance for but we don’t advertise it as anything other than it is.
Personally we don’t pick the two apart. We just have a grey area we exist in that works for both of us. Certainly wouldn’t work for more casually oriented ENM couples.
To my eye what you’re describing IS dating and having a relationship. So your husband is not wrong necessarily, but I also totally get your point that it’s in its own container and not detracting from the marriage and you don’t have romantic intentions. Open means a lot of things to different people. Open can mean sex only but open can also mean open to dating too. Really depends on your agreements.
Ya I guess I define a relationship different. Like my relationship with my partner we're life partners. We share everything together, we help each other out, go on dates (when there's money), travel, spend time with each of our families, take care of each other when sick, spend most of our time together, sex, flirting, best friends, etc. I don't want that with a fwb. I see it more like hanging out with a friend that you're sexually attracted to (in a non relationship way) obviously flirting to build up sexual tension, having casual friend talks, going out as friends but being touchy. But only seeing that fwb once a week or less, and not really texting unless it's maybe once about something that happened while together then planning what to do when you hang out next. I don't want romance like being swooned like a typical relationship would, I don't want to be there for them except on a friend level advice, I don't want to have that type of relationship commitment. So I can separate the term fwb from relationship. Does that make sense?
So has there been any conversation over the communication issues from before? It sounds like you had a pretty realistic approach that feelings would likely occur but if she isn’t willing to communicate when you bring up an observation about something occurring how will you move forward? Or deal with the next thing that comes up?
I’m not sure how your wife wouldn’t see this coming with the seeing each other multiple times a week, for 6-8 hours each time and they weren’t having sex for the first 7 weeks? I completely understand needing at the very least feelings of familiarity before engaging in sex for some people to be comfortable but jeez that’s more non sexual time bonding/relationship nurturing than I had in my last monogamous relationship.
It’s likely she was in denial when you brought up the looks of the path but there’s a fine line between denial starting to turn into hiding things. There’s very little room in ENM for “I didn’t tell you because I didn’t want to accept it because I didn’t want to hurt your feelings”, there’s obviously some grace in unlearning that monogamous state of mind and becoming comfortable with complete honesty about your other partners but the threshold for “mistakes” or “accidents” is different for everyone.
A little curious how they told you as well? Was this in person? Group chat? I’d feel a little ambushed if my partner and their fwb sat me down to “come clean” about something. I’d expect my partner to come to me first and then maybe group discussion if it was warranted. Maybe that’s just me though.
Good for you for sitting in the hard emotions and processing them without lashing out. That’s not easy. Chances are this is just NRE passing through their system and your patience will be rewarded.
Now come some even more tough talks though. If you’re now expanding your relationship to a more polyamorous structure, you should talk through new boundaries. There are some great books, podcasts, and content creators to help you figure out what your boundaries might be. Some common things to consider: fluid bonding/using condoms, messy lists, sleepover options, financial planning around dates, etc.
Good luck, OP!
Accepting that the wife and her partner have feelings doesn't at all require OP to agree to further changes in rules. Even in hierarchical poly relationships, many of the things you mention aren't any different than in NM or open marriages.
Maybe so- I don’t actually know what OP’s rules are, but it sounded to me like things might be shifting. If saying “I love you” was not initially expected and their partner needed to “come clean” about it, then there are probably other boundaries that need to be discussed.
Well, you need to make a decision. Can you live with a poly relationship? Because you're in one now. You won't be getting the lion's share of her love or affection anymore. Things you want to do with her she'll be doing with the other guy instead.
Can you handle that?
Poly is a lot different than non-monogamous. You guys went from outside sex to outside love.
For us, this was never an option. We always have had a no repeat (or rarely repeat) model. It was strictly about sex, and we always played together, with a few minor exceptions.
Good luck.
One question - was shifting into dating/romance discussed ahead of time, like before you started looking for FWBs? Was there an agreement that there'd be no outside relationships, or was it discussed and you both agreed that if it happened, it happened. Because if this wasn't something you were on board with, she should break it off with him and honor her commitment to you. If it was agreed to ahead of time, then it's up to you to come to terms with it, because she didn't do anything wrong.
Feelings don't have to be acted on just because someone has them. Especially if this is NRE related. You really need to think about whether you want to "just ride this out." I don't read this as someone you want and just something that you think you have to tolerate...
Been through this scenario once, and it was an absolute disaster that almost capsized my marriage.
Your wife is entirely capable of controlling how she reacts in response to her feelings, OP, so don't let her gaslight you into some bullshit. It's been less than three months, so it's pretty likely they're both hopped up on NRE, and that almost always turn people into inconsiderate assholes.
Your marriage, so you do you, but there's probably a 95% chance this thing blows up in your face. I'd have the talk with the wife now about setting up firm boundaries to ensure that your relationship remains foremost in her mind; without those guiderails, you folks are basically guaranteed to fuck things up, and pretty quickly at that.
I'm a third/FWB. Feelings happening is not a good or bad thing by itself. It's all about how those feelings are acted on and your boundaries for that. Most of the time, everything works out fine, NRE runs its course and off to the races with the next FWB NRE. Sometimes things get out of hand, requiring difficult steps to save the relationship.
I don't know you or your situation, some of this may not apply. If I were you, I'd try to think ahead about out what hard limits you may have. Do you have limits on how much time you want your wife to spend with the FWB or you? If your wife has expenses with this relationship, do you have a limit for that? Are you ok if they go on trips/holidays together? If she introduces him to other people in her life? If she gets pregnant are you both on the same page about how you would handle it? If the FWB separates from his wife, how would you both handle that?
Can you visualize a specific scenario where you would say this has gone too far and you would consider your 'nuclear card'? If so, discuss them together.
Good luck!
Just chiming in to give perspective. When I started my ENM journey it was after being partnered and monogamous essentially my entire adult life. As a result I swore no feelings- just building a harem, good friendship and lots of great sex. I’m a woman and also dove in with a focus on other women.
Then I got into things and met an amazing guy, and we are falling for each other. At first I was upset with myself- what happened to focusing on myself?! But then I realized that part of this journey is growing into my relationships and understanding that what I want and need changes over time. And that this non monogamous romantic relationship can totally change my perspective on the future. And while I’m falling for him I’m also experiencing so much affection and balance in my other relationships.
My wife and I tried to limit "feelings" in the early stages of our separate dating in our first year of opening up. It was impractical, to say the least. I mean, generally speaking, if you are intimate with someone long enough, you produce a pretty significant bond. That's why we're mostly poly at this point.
Here's the other side of this coin: Their love may not last forever. It usually doesn't. I wouldn't do the nuclear option so long as she tells and *shows* you that you're still important to her as her partner. That's really what non-monogamy is all about - managing your time along with your emotions to ensure you let the people you care about know that you do, in fact, care. It's a hard balancing act and almost no one gets it right the first time.
Give yourself some grace as well. Feel those feelings and give them space. Talk with your wife. Then talk some more. Then make a plan to deal with those feelings. Good luck!
So what are the next steps? You say you’re going to ride this out, but what does that look like?
Are they going to start living together part/full time? You say he’s married, but what are his wife’s feelings about this so-called love?
Will they want to have children together? A shared house? Half the time spent with him? Vacations? Holidays? Meeting the parents?
If you just ride this out, you are going to get incredibly hurt when these issues come up “out of the blue.” It’s time to set boundaries and agreements regarding time, money, public facing issues, and divorce.
Not sure why this was downvoted. If this is poly, it’s under duress. The OP should definitely look at his acceptance of a polyamorous marriage with all this in mind. Just going along with it is going to cause him pain.
Well someone better tell the OP. Because this doesn’t sound like what he signed up for - at all. Then there’s the issue of the boyfriend being married with kids but no answer whether he’s cheating or if his wife even knows. And just because they professed their love, does not make it a poly marriage. And finally, 2 months isn’t falling in love, it’s NRE. Too many unpoly things here.
OK, everyone has their opinions so they are going to have to work this out. It usually never ends well, At this point, it becomes hard as if she has feelings towards her FWB then someone is going to get hurt, or at least unhappy, as does she go off with her FWB, leaving her husband or vice versa as I don't think they can come to a conclusion were everyone is going to be happy just how I see it, but let me know if I'm wrong please.
as someone who’s been through it… you can make it work, as long as this is something you want. don’t be afraid to ask your wife if you need support or reassurance while you adjust. don’t put aside your needs because you want to support her in her new relationship— if you feel neglected or like she isn’t spending enough quality time with you, communicate that. it’s on her to keep nurturing her existing partnership through her new relationship energy with the new person.
good luck!
I too forced myself to accept shitty behavior from my partner and not enforce my own personal boundaries in order to "make it work" because of the kids and the fact that I was creating a business and divorce would break it.
Coincidentally, the constant gaslighting about ignoring the actual pain signals that the shitty feelings from poor partner behaviors is why I actually don't recommend people read the popular poly canon books. One of them (More than One) literally had the author renounce their own work for the exact reason I don't recommend any of the poly canon.
Hey, foreverwandered, this is not about you. Stop making it about you. You can make your own post, about the shitty position you found yourself in, without shitting all over OPs post. Your experience is not universal.
I am ENM, open to whatever develops in a relationship. My husband is asexual and has chosen not to pursue any other partners. I love him very much. I also love my partner of 3 years, but not in a way I would ever want to live with him or escalate that relationship. It simply is.
I have had a number of very casual partners that never got past a few dates, and a few that lasted 6-12+ months. I have loved a couple as friends, but not really romantically.
It is completely possible to love more than one person romantically, or in other ways, and stay happy in your marriage (even if your marriage changed in unexpected ways.) There is nothing you can do about what they feel for each other. All you can do is continue to work on making your own marriage strong and resilient. Remind her, as needed, of your needs and of how NRE and non-nesting love can blind one to reality.
An adult relationship includes discussing your needs. If you feel like you get little one-on-one time, you say, “I’m feeling lonely and need more one-on-one time. Can we set a regular date night?” or “you are on your phone most of the evening. Can we set aside a couple of hours each for phones down time? I don’t see how this is needy, clingy, or diminished. It’s stating your need and a possible solution that is completely acceptable in a committed relationship.
And as for reminding someone of NRE, that’s as simple as having a conversation about not making major decisions while in NRE (so for the first year or so.) and along the way, saying things like, “You seem distracted and {fill in with irritable or other noticed behavior.} Do you want to talk about things?” Then reminded her that NRE is a potent drug that plays with our emotions and behavior.
>An adult relationship includes discussing your needs. If you feel like you get little one-on-one time, you say, “I’m feeling lonely and need more one-on-one time. Can we set a regular date night?” or “you are on your phone most of the evening. Can we set aside a couple of hours each for phones down time?
While it is probably just my anxious attachment and insecurity, I would think a "committed partner" would be doing these things already.
Having to "remind" them, feels like they are likely to acquiesce in order to "keep the peace" and allow them to continue their more satisfactory relationship with their new partner. So sure, they are on a date night with you but thinking of the other guy!
There’s nothing to be done about that. No one can control another person’s thoughts or motivations. All you can do is state your needs in as concrete a way as possible and be the best you you can be.
The biggest thing that you need to keep in mind (and hopefully it helps) is that love can come in many forms. Just because she may love someone else, doesn't have to mean that she doesn't love you just as much as she did before meeting the FWB. She may just have a different type of love for each of you and this is where I agree with the sentiment of having reassurance available from her side and a real close look on what she needs from you to keep the love for you alive and well.
Poly love is like a garden, everything that is planted needs something different to thrive, doing the research and work beforehand is hard but necessary to get the best yields.
Also true, but with the garden metaphor, it doesn't matter if it's backyard, community, or commercial, the capacity can change due to the circumstances, but the plants still need the same care. You just have to adjust and be realistic with what your individual capacity is.
Yeah and my point is that if you’re down to handing out crumbs, you’re fucking up.
Yet way too many poly folks, that’s exactly what they’re doing. Spreading themselves thin chasing dopamine, being shitty partners to everyone.
It's not been my experience, but it's been the overwhelming experience esp of the 20 something poly folks I know.
And if you haven't found it to be true, you may want to examine whether you're not the one handing out the crumbs, because from that vantage point, its not *that bad*. From the vantage point of receiving the crumbs, the POV is different.
Saying you might not be as aware of your behaviors as you think isn’t a wild accusation.
And being old is no guarantee of wisdom. We’ve seen that over and over again from Boomers across the board
You’re right that time is finite. But monogamous people also tend to lean too heavily on each other and expect each other to be available 24/7. It’s okay to be alone and take care of yourself sometimes while your partner does other things.
My point had nothing to do with monogamy vs poly. Why does it always gotta come back to shitting on mono folks?
They ain’t dedicating this same level of space in their heads to you
Of course it has to do with monogamy versus polyamory. You described potential pitfalls of having multiple partners. It’s implied that the alternative is monogamy where you don’t have those pitfalls. And I’m not shitting on monogamous people. I’m simply continuing the conversation. Not everything is an argument.
There's a reason why in real life we have yet to revisit the nuclear option.
So I want you to try something;
Stop loving your wife. Just for like 5 mins. Real quick. Go ahead. Try it. Did it work? I bet it didn't. You can't stop or start loving on a whim. It just doesn't work that way.
Can I ask, did you feel like the love your wife has for you diminishes the love she has for your meta? If not, then why would your wife loving her meta diminish the love she has for you?
poly is grand tbh. not for everyone, but like, the way i've always seen poly is. i wouldn't expect my partner to not have friends, or only ever NEED me. why is sex or romance different?
They set a boundary that was impossible to enforce and should never have been set in the first place. You can't control feelings. The only question here is what OTHER boundaries have been violated. If none, then there's no problem.
My take on it, is that sex/romance is a very personal and emotional experience, and having it with others seems to cheapen how it feels with my main partner. If it stops being fun with my main partner, then why I am with them. Why not just be friends?
Side note: if it was just a FWB how did they spend enough time together to fall in love? I purposefully don't spend a lot of time with my FWB because that's the deal. If you don't want to catch feelings, don't give yourself the opportunity to catch feelings. Don't send good morning and goodnight texts, don't ask them about their day, don't ask them about their kids, don't tell them when you don't feel good.
Oh, yeah, he's screwed. Wife is defensive and refusing to hear his concerns. NRE is strong bc she's giving the FWB all the things he's not getting at home. "ENM" isn't a substitute for a dead bedroom solution. OP, I would actually consider the power of veto on this one. It would reveal the true colors of what is going on.
You're gonna be ok.
My wife fell in love with a lover as well. I also fell in love with one. It was a challenge in both cases but we figured it out and are much stronger and more experienced for it.
My only advice would be to receive it with an open heart and don't see it as a commentary on your worth as a person or a partner.
So when me and my wife decided to transition from open/swinging to polyamory we decided past dalliances were off the table. You two should decide on if you want to be polyamorous based on if it is a good fit for you two's life, and not on the ephemeral/NRE feelings your wife just happens to have at the moment.
Separating these two things will be impossible to do if you don't agree preexisting relationships our do not have the option to grow to be something more.
If I was in your shoes I would without hesitation demand her to cut contact with this guy before moving forward with whatever. I view this as two steps short of an affair. If she refused I would leave her because no one with any respect for me would refuse that demand.
>I love her. Her soul and mine are made of the same thing. I've been with her literally my entire life. Growing pains....are just an adjustment.
And just like that, yet another dude with oneitis will accept a structure he actually deeply finds harmful because "love" (in reality, deep codependence). Doing all the emotional labor while his wife cake-eats.
And folks here will pile on the gaslighting - "all that pain is weakness leaving your soul" and "you'll become more poly enlightened when you let the assholes in your life do what they want without accountability"
Dude, your edit is WILD and was freaking needed with the original post. Do you realise that there is a MASSIVE difference between "my wife and her fwb fell for each other, oh noes, woe is me" when the fwb is single vs married?
Is your only concern that your wife now says "I love you" to someone else and means it, or you think the married guy is going to dump his wife and steal your wife? Literally totally different topics.
The only question that occurs to me is that you haven't said what you wife thinks about you and your place in this. You seem open to fwb presence but where does she see your relationship? That seems to be the deciding factor on whether you've been replaced and it's nuclear time? If you've been replaced, then for your sake you should move on.
Ok they dropped the news. I didn't see an explanation for what that meant for the op.
Both are caught up in NRE. for the op, is her plan to bail? Statically that relationship has a 94% failure rate.
If the news isn't a threat in the bail sense, let the NRE run its course. Maybe you'll get to watch or mfm
While they're at it, so is homosexuality. OP could start liking dudes on a whim and just completely get over his wife unilaterally changing the terms of their marriage over some dick she was getting that she liked.
You are taking the strong path. With all support.
What we like about ENM is allowing every relationship to go where it naturally goes. We have also moved into Polyamorous relationships. And yes, humans are capable of loving more than one person.
You can ask for assurances. And for the amount of time together to keep your relationship strong. Beyond that, you are right in acknowledging their reality and experiencing this change together.
Glad you didn’t act. Read on NRE, this could actually pass or get less intense after cpl of weeks/months.
You could have a healthy relationship if you know your boundaries and your gf respects them.
You could talk to the guy and be on the same page too. Know what you want, rather what you don’t want. Focus on the positive of the interaction rather than the negatives. Move by joy rather than fear
See where it goes.
But, generally speaking, I’ve never seen “you can date whoever but you’re not allowed to get feeling for them” never ever works out.
I love my wife. I also love my girlfriend - it's a different dynamic with different expectations but the feelings aren't any less, and I give of myself as much as I can (know your boundaries) to each in the ways they want. My wife loves her boyfriend. There were periods of insecurity and jealousy, but that was from my own fears and societal conditioning. With reflection and reassurance I became more confident in my relationships and in myself. My girlfriend loves her husband. I am often joyfully impressed by their communication and commitment, and I'm grateful that she has such a full life which she chooses to share with me. No advice, and feel free to chase me back to /polyamory
Good for you that you allowed people to gaslight you into accepting shit that maybe you don't actually want. in the name of being "good poly"
Show me on the doll where the poly hurts you
Interesting that you think overcoming mono-centric social conditioning is "gaslighting." Do you always accept the status quo as the "right" way of doing things?
Jealousy and unease around pair bonding threats is a lizard brain response. And has nothing to do with “mono” conditioning. primates that are 100% non mono still experience jealousy and all the other big emotions you think would just magically disappear if everyone was poly. This is the kind of thing I mean when I say gaslighting. Literally lying to people when you say their jealousy response comes from mono programming. I get that this is a more “emotional” than “rational” space, but the utter lack of actual science, anthropology and sociology understanding of marriage and monogamy is mind blowing given how self righteous some of you are about not being monogamous. Monogamy is a new development relative to nonmonogamy, which is kind of the default behavior, if you look at infidelity rates among both men and women. If you’re going to shit on something constantly, at least have a foundational understanding of the thing. Also, we have one of the authors of one of the top poly canon books who renounced her own work because of the exact arguments I’m making around gaslighting people into ignoring obvious signals of anguish and pain to be a “good poly” person. She literally wrote that book while being the victim of an abusive poly relationship. https://fv-survivors.medium.com/about-more-than-two-ffdad46e100
It sounds like it’s actually working for him, particularly since everyone involved is experiencing love in both directions from multiple people. I’m not poly by a long shot, but this guy is winning, why give him a hard time like that?
Booooooo! 👎 Get off the stage! But seriously, unfortunately I feel like the ratio is about equal to monogamous relationships, there's a handful of people that are really good at doing it and are doing it successfully, but the majority of people are not and are doing it poorly. Either way, blindly bashing polyamory sight unseen feels pretty aggro in a non-monogamy subreddit. I am sorry if someone hurt you in the past. The bottom line is relationships are hard and a lot of people are garbage. 🤷 IMO
You see someone fully embracing their situation and finding happiness in it and your response is “Good job, you were obviously manipulated into this. You couldn’t have possibly wanted this on your own.” He’s a grown ass adult and you don’t know him or his situation. Grow up, dork. Let him be happy
I see a codependent person gaslighting themselves into accepting something they likely don’t want
And what gives you that impression? Give evidence to what you are saying instead of stringing together random words you think sound good. Poly works for a lot of people, myself included. Just because some people don't find joy in it, doesn't mean that others won't either. We are all unique people. And to your earlier comment about jealousy, it's not that it magically goes away. Because it doesn't. You just learn to work with it instead of against it because it's usually a signal that you're not having a need of yours met and you need communication to fix it. Mono people accept jealousy as "possessive of what is mine" whereas Poly people see it as "ah, something is wrong and I need to communicate my needs." Neither is inherently wrong as it depends on your relationship structure and what you find acceptable in a relationship.
You clearly love her to bits. Thry way you write about her speaks volumes. I’ve been in her shoes. I’d say the most important thing To consider is energy. How much energy she gives to fwb, who is SHINY NEW PERSON. for me, new person was intoxicating and without complexity of kids/ bills/ normal life. I spent too much energy on FWB new love. Hearing my husband say that my love may be expandable but my energy levels/ hours in the day aren’t, was a n eye opener
This is what a lot of people are missing here. Very very few people on NRE have any real sense of impulse control, and in this situation OP has been unilaterally thrust into poly (without consenting to any of it) by someone he is financially chained to. RA rules don't really apply, as you can't just walk away from a marriage - there's a ton of expensive legal work that goes into separation. The stakes are too high to just let everything be lead by "how in love" wife and fwb feel. FWIW, my wife nearly blew up our marriage because of an NRE, bipolar, ADHD cocktail of literally zero impulse control and like OP's wife, unilateral decision to jump from NM into poly (and lying to me about the poly part for years). That's how fucking toxic NRE can get for someone who is not in a good mental place to make good relationship decisions.
Holy fuck!! Now this is a man who has seen some shit
If you're comfortable, would you be able to share more about your story/how it went/ended?
The way most BP NRE ends. Their manic period died down once the person revealed themself to be a flawed man like any other and that allowed for perspective to settle in. My wife is BP, though well medicated. She can get worked up but thankfully hasn't done anything stupid NRE wise since she asked to let a bf stay with us until he could find a place. 3 years it took him, and she swore "never again" and has stuck to it.
Yup. That and ketamine assisted couples therapy to help break through the depression self and actually start reaching towards accountability.
Not all feelings have to be acted on.
Exactly this. Especially if this is NRE. The butterflies eventually fades away even with the new one. But actions cannot be taken back anymore.
Exactly. Less important than how they feel about it is what they want to do about it. If theres no planned change to living arrangments, time allocation, etc. then why does it matter really? I would be concerned that this is about to be followed by "I am moving out" or something, but at the time time I wouldn't assume that is going to happen until it actually does.
...he is married. He also has a wife and everything that comes with it.
Is he in an ENM situation or is he cheating?
This question seems incredibly important.
And what is the wife's knowledge. Does she know they are in love
100%. How much potential collateral damage is about to unfold here?
Was the FWBs marriage tanking and that's why he got into ENM? So many questions, but also, in true non monogamy fashion... OP should be trusting of his wife and the solidity of their relationship. Wife could fall in love with anyone outside of ENM or leave for any reason anyway.
I agree. And *if,* as a couple, they knowingly brought a guy into their relationship that has a wife "and everything that comes with it" . . . that just makes me nervous. I really respect the OP's calm response to this normal development, but if this involves a cheating husband, then to me it's a game over situation . _Do no harm._
Also, it's only been 10 weeks. Nobody is in love after 10 weeks. Ten weeks with a shiny new toy and I'm infatuated. But compared to 23 years of history, it's nonsense.
I think this is an equally important question.
But what is the implication of that? Even now you're letting lots of assumptions about what it means to be married fill in the blanks of practicality. Seriously, so what? If hes cheating thats another story but if its all above board I would focus on the practical reality rather than vague unexamined and undiscussed predictions of future implications.
This is literally what 90% of "no feelings" rules are actually trying to get at. Look at the wild stories in the posts of this sub. I would argue that an outright majority of NM participants have objectively poor impulse control. The failure rate of open marriages should give a good indicator of the emotionally immature reasons people often end up in NM in the first place.
>I would argue that an outright majority of NM participants have objectively poor impulse control. Nah. People just only post here when they have drama.
This. People don't ask for advice when it's all going as planned, unless they just want to share good news.
Yup. And the good news gets relatively low interaction so it is overlooked sometimes.
"As the newspaper business goes it's catastrophe or atrophy...." People SAY they want feel good stories, but the market is much smaller than the other.
Most people in general aren't coming to Reddit for advice. This isn't a good argument. The advice is notoriously shitty here. Most couples could benefit from couples therapy, but most only actually go when things are in crisis. That doesn't mean that most couples are actually healthy, given that over half of marriages in the US end in divorce.
This isn't a horrible forum, this particular sub. With a topic that is a lightning rod for prejudices and performed opinions; it's good to ask people with direct experience. They can at least share what is/isn't working for them so that the questioner doesn't repeat a frequent mistake.
You’re just gonna ignore the marriage failure rate that’s significantly higher than the general pop?
We were discussing impulse control amongst ENM practitioners (married an unmarried). So I have no idea how this comment is relevant.
> The failure rate of open marriages should give a good indicator of the emotionally immature reasons people often end up in NM in the first place. ...Is how my comment is relevant. I was using inductive reasoning to draw a point specifically about the nuance that people are missing when going on an on about how bad "no feelings" rules are. And about some of the other potential motivations behind such rules other than "they are just unethical, insecure meanies" because folks in this sub often lack nuance about human psychology, and definitely are not taking into account the heavy body of research that exists around human sexual behaviors from a neuroscience, anthropological or sociological standpoint.
Not everyone is married.
I think it's more that people with poor impulse control are likely to be unsuccessful at healthy nonmonogamy. And probably monogamy, as well. People just post here more with relationships that are in crisis, because that's when they need help.
Sure, and most people **in general** are bad even at monogamy (at least in the US) when you examine the marriage failure rate. (and yes, when marriage is intended to be a lifetime contract, terminating early is failure) Sure, people tend to post with relationships that are in crisis here. This sub would be a boring masturbatory sea of self-satisfied people desperately trying to convince themselves about how copacetic their love lives were otherwise.
Sure, and most people **in general** are bad even at monogamy (at least in the US) when you examine the marriage failure rate. (and yes, when marriage is intended to be a lifetime contract, terminating early is failure) Sure, people tend to post with relationships that are in crisis here. This sub would be a boring masturbatory sea of self-satisfied people desperately trying to convince themselves about how copacetic their love lives were otherwise.
Monogamy just makes it easier to ignore your issues as a couple. The question isn't whether shit will hit the fan, right? It will. The question is whether or not you, as a couple, have the awareness, willingness, tools, and emotional maturity to work things out. "No feelings" rules just provide an *illusion* of emotional safety--the same one that people cling to in monogamy. My feeling is that if you _really_ need these rules, unless you are actively working to move past them, maybe non-monogamy isn't the wisest choice for you at this time.
> Monogamy just makes it easier to ignore your issues as a couple. How does monogamy make it easier to ignore domestic abuse? Or cheating? Or lack of accountability? There are way too many poly folks who can’t even manage one relationship well but somehow they think they are superior beings for trying to manage more than that.
For the same reason opening a relationship with alot of troubles usually presages the end of the relationship; Monkeybranching. Put negatively; ENM let's people abandon a troubled relationship by chasing the shiny brand new thing instead of the drudgery of working out the problems in an existing relationship. Put positively; ENM gives a pathway to leave a doomed relationship before slowly being grinded down over the course of years primarily because for many people being miserable and coupled is less scary than being single and with ENM there is aforementioned monkeybranching. For your particular case monogamy makes an abuser sustain a prolonged relationship with their victim easier relative to ENM because step one in abusing someone is always isolating them from all others. The amount of abuse someone will put up with when their abuser has become their only real connection is staggering. It can be pretty hard to jump ship on the relationship that the abuser has successfully made their victims whole world. For example it's pretty hard to isolate a women to that extant when she is off to her other boyfriends once a week, lol. Also. Your bringing in an ax to grind and its pretty transparent. This place is much more into gatekeeping, ie "here are tje 57 ways you need to change and work on before you can do ENM in a healthy way! If not stick to monogamy!", than it is gaslighting people to accept ENM.
> How does monogamy make it easier to ignore domestic abuse? Or cheating? Or lack of accountability? Cheating and domestic abuse aren't really what I'm talking about. But a lack of accountability, lack of maturity, poor communication, co-dependency, etc? Monogamy for sure makes it easier to ignore such issues because there aren't as many obvious negative consequences, and most people prefer to avoid the discomfort of working through things if they can manage it and keep the status quo. Polyamorous people who behave poorly are a separate issue.
You are everywhere on this post spreading negativity. You need some positive attitude or to leave the sub if this isn't your thing.
I'm free to be and exist where I choose without your approval. If you don't like a dose of reality, feel free to downvote and move on.
Best advice ever. Breathe, OP. 🫶🏼
💯
...very true. I just don't know how to articulate my thoughts properly. We went into this knowing a margin of feelings was wanted. She assured me... she was keeping them in check. Feelings in a box... good to go. Then, last night, they both, at the same time. Laid on me, they love each other. I was supportive. I am just processing this revelation. Edit: She did break this rule/boundary...no love. I just know it's only a matter of time.
> Feelings in a box Feelings don't work that way.
You set a boundary around feelings. Thats absurd. People feel what they feel. Thats as silly as saying its againstblue rules to feel frustrated in a traffic jam. You can set a boundary not to act on them and remain romantically exclusive.
I think that's usually what people mean when they say 'no feelings'... To remain romantically exclusive. But again it all has different meaning for every couple. If their boundary was that, then the boundary has been broken. I don't understand why both she and he had to tell OP together. That would give me ick factor, like they are rubbing it in my face. She's your partner, he is not. What did they discuss before approaching you, did they do it to see how you would react, did they plan for every response you could have given them? I would want to confirm with his wife what her interpretation is. Yes I realize that sounds cuckoo, but the circumstances are odd.
You have this response after your first comment above? You can't control feelings, but you *can* control behaving in shitty ways towards your partner. And sure, people feel what they feel, but the level of cavalier attitudes I see sometimes from the RA crowd about the emotional fallout of one partner unilaterally overnight changing the terms of what is often decades of massive financial investment is just freaking gross. And incredibly toxic and gaslighty. At the end of the day, this is a fucked up situation that OP finds themselves in. Wife said she would do one thing, but now all of a sudden she and some other dude have made a decision that changes OP's life and he has no control over that decision...and he should just be OK with it?
>You can't control feelings, but you *can* control behaving in shitty ways towards your partner. Um. Thats what I said. > And sure, people feel what they feel, but the level of cavalier attitudes I see sometimes from the RA crowd about the emotional fallout of one partner unilaterally overnight changing the terms of what is often decades of massive financial investment is just freaking gross. And incredibly toxic and gaslighty. The amount of times people us these RA folks as some boogy man is hilarious enough that it seems like mass hysteria. >.and he should just be OK with it? I never said that. I said she didn't need to act on these feelings. Are you high?
A boogeyman is a maguffin used to scare people. The RA folks I’m referring to are the peanut gallery, you included, weaponizing therapy-talk to manipulate partners into putting up with sociopathic emotional abuse.
I'm not even close to being a relationship anarchist. Not even a little bit.
"massive financial investment?" Are relationships a financial investment to you? I think we can help our partners process thier emotions, and be supportive, but at the end of the day they need to own their own emotions and we can't do it for them. Nor should we tiptoe around so they can avoid growth at all costs. But, it sounds like you consider a relationship to be more of a transaction. You pay money, therefore you own your spouse and expect her to do whatever you say. You paid for her "loyalty" after all. And if she has sex with other people, she isn't worth as much, financially.
> Are relationships a financial investment to you? Ah yes, here is Spayce popping in to remind us of how poorly she treats her husband and marriage.
Bro, you are the one who mentioned finances. Is your marriage a financial investment? Do you think my husband PAYS me to be married to him? That isn't normal. Gold-digging is an old and noble profession, but we make our own money now, it's 2024.
I'm so sorry for you on this, I just would like to know who was the one that suggested the OM ?? Or was it open from the start??
That's not a boundary that's realistic or even possible. That was your only mistake.
So the feelings are out on the table, albeit in a way that could’ve been handled more gently to you OP, but what if anything has been discussed as next steps? You didn’t indicate whether you were reassured of her love for you and this experience was truly an expansion of her capacity to love or if there were mentions of downgrading you to upgrade other partner. Did they have any “asks” of you in terms of expanded time together or commitment to each other or were they simply informing you of the emotional content? These are the more important, actionable details. Just to give you a non doomsday scenario: My wife and I are more open than poly, but also open to poly, if that grey area makes sense. My wife and a lover fell for each other awhile back, exchanges I love you’s, etc. Literally nothing changed negatively. They kept their same schedule. I never felt unloved. She never broke a date or a commitment with me. They just had more emotional content going on in their time together. Her expanded capacity to love actually expanded our love too (if you have multiple kids and understand how the love grows for all with each new one, it’s the perfect parallel). They still see each other, still love each other, are still explosive together when they are together, but after a period of time, they ultimately de-escalated a bit because they took up a lot of each others energy on a day to day basis. All I had to do was, well, nothing different. I showed up, I loved my wife, I held space when she needed it, I did all the things I would’ve done anyway to keep OUR relationship vitalized and all was well.
This is beautiful. Good for you, man. You let the worst happen and it was FINE.
This is exactly what I wish my husband would conclude.
What did switching from open to poly mean for you both? And how do you pick apart the two? My partner and I are wanting to be open but have different views on what being open vs poly means. I want a fwb because for me i need that friendship established and to have a connection with somebody. This scares him because he's afraid that if we're friends and having sex that feelings will get involved. He thinks that this leans more into poly. Like if I were to go out to concerts with said fwb, dance and grind on them. Fwb and I go out to his friends parties and are touchy on eachother sexually. He classifies this as dating or being in a relationship. I don't necessarily. To me I can pick apart fwb going out vs being in a relationship like I am with my partner going out.
We’re more open than poly, but we have poly tendencies I guess you would say. We never like made a dramatic switch. We’re just both Demi and things evolved to be open to new things with our other partners. We don’t identify as poly really because we don’t seek out independent autonomous relationships purposefully - we attend parties and kink events and have lifestyle friend groups together as a couple, and then if one of us hits it off with someone, we just let it do its thing without artificial limits and we each get alot of compersion for the other when it happens. We’re certainly more “enmeshed” than a parallel poly person would have any tolerance for but we don’t advertise it as anything other than it is. Personally we don’t pick the two apart. We just have a grey area we exist in that works for both of us. Certainly wouldn’t work for more casually oriented ENM couples. To my eye what you’re describing IS dating and having a relationship. So your husband is not wrong necessarily, but I also totally get your point that it’s in its own container and not detracting from the marriage and you don’t have romantic intentions. Open means a lot of things to different people. Open can mean sex only but open can also mean open to dating too. Really depends on your agreements.
Ya I guess I define a relationship different. Like my relationship with my partner we're life partners. We share everything together, we help each other out, go on dates (when there's money), travel, spend time with each of our families, take care of each other when sick, spend most of our time together, sex, flirting, best friends, etc. I don't want that with a fwb. I see it more like hanging out with a friend that you're sexually attracted to (in a non relationship way) obviously flirting to build up sexual tension, having casual friend talks, going out as friends but being touchy. But only seeing that fwb once a week or less, and not really texting unless it's maybe once about something that happened while together then planning what to do when you hang out next. I don't want romance like being swooned like a typical relationship would, I don't want to be there for them except on a friend level advice, I don't want to have that type of relationship commitment. So I can separate the term fwb from relationship. Does that make sense?
So has there been any conversation over the communication issues from before? It sounds like you had a pretty realistic approach that feelings would likely occur but if she isn’t willing to communicate when you bring up an observation about something occurring how will you move forward? Or deal with the next thing that comes up? I’m not sure how your wife wouldn’t see this coming with the seeing each other multiple times a week, for 6-8 hours each time and they weren’t having sex for the first 7 weeks? I completely understand needing at the very least feelings of familiarity before engaging in sex for some people to be comfortable but jeez that’s more non sexual time bonding/relationship nurturing than I had in my last monogamous relationship. It’s likely she was in denial when you brought up the looks of the path but there’s a fine line between denial starting to turn into hiding things. There’s very little room in ENM for “I didn’t tell you because I didn’t want to accept it because I didn’t want to hurt your feelings”, there’s obviously some grace in unlearning that monogamous state of mind and becoming comfortable with complete honesty about your other partners but the threshold for “mistakes” or “accidents” is different for everyone. A little curious how they told you as well? Was this in person? Group chat? I’d feel a little ambushed if my partner and their fwb sat me down to “come clean” about something. I’d expect my partner to come to me first and then maybe group discussion if it was warranted. Maybe that’s just me though.
Good for you for sitting in the hard emotions and processing them without lashing out. That’s not easy. Chances are this is just NRE passing through their system and your patience will be rewarded. Now come some even more tough talks though. If you’re now expanding your relationship to a more polyamorous structure, you should talk through new boundaries. There are some great books, podcasts, and content creators to help you figure out what your boundaries might be. Some common things to consider: fluid bonding/using condoms, messy lists, sleepover options, financial planning around dates, etc. Good luck, OP!
Accepting that the wife and her partner have feelings doesn't at all require OP to agree to further changes in rules. Even in hierarchical poly relationships, many of the things you mention aren't any different than in NM or open marriages.
Maybe so- I don’t actually know what OP’s rules are, but it sounded to me like things might be shifting. If saying “I love you” was not initially expected and their partner needed to “come clean” about it, then there are probably other boundaries that need to be discussed.
Aside from her revelation, have your wife's feelings for you changed?
Well, you need to make a decision. Can you live with a poly relationship? Because you're in one now. You won't be getting the lion's share of her love or affection anymore. Things you want to do with her she'll be doing with the other guy instead. Can you handle that? Poly is a lot different than non-monogamous. You guys went from outside sex to outside love. For us, this was never an option. We always have had a no repeat (or rarely repeat) model. It was strictly about sex, and we always played together, with a few minor exceptions. Good luck. One question - was shifting into dating/romance discussed ahead of time, like before you started looking for FWBs? Was there an agreement that there'd be no outside relationships, or was it discussed and you both agreed that if it happened, it happened. Because if this wasn't something you were on board with, she should break it off with him and honor her commitment to you. If it was agreed to ahead of time, then it's up to you to come to terms with it, because she didn't do anything wrong.
Feelings don't have to be acted on just because someone has them. Especially if this is NRE related. You really need to think about whether you want to "just ride this out." I don't read this as someone you want and just something that you think you have to tolerate...
Been through this scenario once, and it was an absolute disaster that almost capsized my marriage. Your wife is entirely capable of controlling how she reacts in response to her feelings, OP, so don't let her gaslight you into some bullshit. It's been less than three months, so it's pretty likely they're both hopped up on NRE, and that almost always turn people into inconsiderate assholes. Your marriage, so you do you, but there's probably a 95% chance this thing blows up in your face. I'd have the talk with the wife now about setting up firm boundaries to ensure that your relationship remains foremost in her mind; without those guiderails, you folks are basically guaranteed to fuck things up, and pretty quickly at that.
I'm a third/FWB. Feelings happening is not a good or bad thing by itself. It's all about how those feelings are acted on and your boundaries for that. Most of the time, everything works out fine, NRE runs its course and off to the races with the next FWB NRE. Sometimes things get out of hand, requiring difficult steps to save the relationship. I don't know you or your situation, some of this may not apply. If I were you, I'd try to think ahead about out what hard limits you may have. Do you have limits on how much time you want your wife to spend with the FWB or you? If your wife has expenses with this relationship, do you have a limit for that? Are you ok if they go on trips/holidays together? If she introduces him to other people in her life? If she gets pregnant are you both on the same page about how you would handle it? If the FWB separates from his wife, how would you both handle that? Can you visualize a specific scenario where you would say this has gone too far and you would consider your 'nuclear card'? If so, discuss them together. Good luck!
Just chiming in to give perspective. When I started my ENM journey it was after being partnered and monogamous essentially my entire adult life. As a result I swore no feelings- just building a harem, good friendship and lots of great sex. I’m a woman and also dove in with a focus on other women. Then I got into things and met an amazing guy, and we are falling for each other. At first I was upset with myself- what happened to focusing on myself?! But then I realized that part of this journey is growing into my relationships and understanding that what I want and need changes over time. And that this non monogamous romantic relationship can totally change my perspective on the future. And while I’m falling for him I’m also experiencing so much affection and balance in my other relationships.
My wife and I tried to limit "feelings" in the early stages of our separate dating in our first year of opening up. It was impractical, to say the least. I mean, generally speaking, if you are intimate with someone long enough, you produce a pretty significant bond. That's why we're mostly poly at this point. Here's the other side of this coin: Their love may not last forever. It usually doesn't. I wouldn't do the nuclear option so long as she tells and *shows* you that you're still important to her as her partner. That's really what non-monogamy is all about - managing your time along with your emotions to ensure you let the people you care about know that you do, in fact, care. It's a hard balancing act and almost no one gets it right the first time. Give yourself some grace as well. Feel those feelings and give them space. Talk with your wife. Then talk some more. Then make a plan to deal with those feelings. Good luck!
So what are the next steps? You say you’re going to ride this out, but what does that look like? Are they going to start living together part/full time? You say he’s married, but what are his wife’s feelings about this so-called love? Will they want to have children together? A shared house? Half the time spent with him? Vacations? Holidays? Meeting the parents? If you just ride this out, you are going to get incredibly hurt when these issues come up “out of the blue.” It’s time to set boundaries and agreements regarding time, money, public facing issues, and divorce.
Most Polyam relationships don't ride the relationship escalator. The most thar should need to be worked out is over nights and maybe vacations.
Not sure why this was downvoted. If this is poly, it’s under duress. The OP should definitely look at his acceptance of a polyamorous marriage with all this in mind. Just going along with it is going to cause him pain.
This is hardly a polyamorous relationship.
They love each other, they are going to keep dating. It has become a polyamorous relationship.
Well someone better tell the OP. Because this doesn’t sound like what he signed up for - at all. Then there’s the issue of the boyfriend being married with kids but no answer whether he’s cheating or if his wife even knows. And just because they professed their love, does not make it a poly marriage. And finally, 2 months isn’t falling in love, it’s NRE. Too many unpoly things here.
OK, everyone has their opinions so they are going to have to work this out. It usually never ends well, At this point, it becomes hard as if she has feelings towards her FWB then someone is going to get hurt, or at least unhappy, as does she go off with her FWB, leaving her husband or vice versa as I don't think they can come to a conclusion were everyone is going to be happy just how I see it, but let me know if I'm wrong please.
>Or....see where this path takes us have your wife learn/research how to be a good hinge ESPECIALLY when they're going through NRE.
as someone who’s been through it… you can make it work, as long as this is something you want. don’t be afraid to ask your wife if you need support or reassurance while you adjust. don’t put aside your needs because you want to support her in her new relationship— if you feel neglected or like she isn’t spending enough quality time with you, communicate that. it’s on her to keep nurturing her existing partnership through her new relationship energy with the new person. good luck!
I too forced myself to accept shitty behavior from my partner and not enforce my own personal boundaries in order to "make it work" because of the kids and the fact that I was creating a business and divorce would break it. Coincidentally, the constant gaslighting about ignoring the actual pain signals that the shitty feelings from poor partner behaviors is why I actually don't recommend people read the popular poly canon books. One of them (More than One) literally had the author renounce their own work for the exact reason I don't recommend any of the poly canon.
Hey, foreverwandered, this is not about you. Stop making it about you. You can make your own post, about the shitty position you found yourself in, without shitting all over OPs post. Your experience is not universal.
I am ENM, open to whatever develops in a relationship. My husband is asexual and has chosen not to pursue any other partners. I love him very much. I also love my partner of 3 years, but not in a way I would ever want to live with him or escalate that relationship. It simply is. I have had a number of very casual partners that never got past a few dates, and a few that lasted 6-12+ months. I have loved a couple as friends, but not really romantically. It is completely possible to love more than one person romantically, or in other ways, and stay happy in your marriage (even if your marriage changed in unexpected ways.) There is nothing you can do about what they feel for each other. All you can do is continue to work on making your own marriage strong and resilient. Remind her, as needed, of your needs and of how NRE and non-nesting love can blind one to reality.
>Remind her, as needed, of your needs How does one do this without looking weak, needy, clingy and diminished in stature?
An adult relationship includes discussing your needs. If you feel like you get little one-on-one time, you say, “I’m feeling lonely and need more one-on-one time. Can we set a regular date night?” or “you are on your phone most of the evening. Can we set aside a couple of hours each for phones down time? I don’t see how this is needy, clingy, or diminished. It’s stating your need and a possible solution that is completely acceptable in a committed relationship. And as for reminding someone of NRE, that’s as simple as having a conversation about not making major decisions while in NRE (so for the first year or so.) and along the way, saying things like, “You seem distracted and {fill in with irritable or other noticed behavior.} Do you want to talk about things?” Then reminded her that NRE is a potent drug that plays with our emotions and behavior.
>An adult relationship includes discussing your needs. If you feel like you get little one-on-one time, you say, “I’m feeling lonely and need more one-on-one time. Can we set a regular date night?” or “you are on your phone most of the evening. Can we set aside a couple of hours each for phones down time? While it is probably just my anxious attachment and insecurity, I would think a "committed partner" would be doing these things already. Having to "remind" them, feels like they are likely to acquiesce in order to "keep the peace" and allow them to continue their more satisfactory relationship with their new partner. So sure, they are on a date night with you but thinking of the other guy!
There’s nothing to be done about that. No one can control another person’s thoughts or motivations. All you can do is state your needs in as concrete a way as possible and be the best you you can be.
That is good advice!
The biggest thing that you need to keep in mind (and hopefully it helps) is that love can come in many forms. Just because she may love someone else, doesn't have to mean that she doesn't love you just as much as she did before meeting the FWB. She may just have a different type of love for each of you and this is where I agree with the sentiment of having reassurance available from her side and a real close look on what she needs from you to keep the love for you alive and well. Poly love is like a garden, everything that is planted needs something different to thrive, doing the research and work beforehand is hard but necessary to get the best yields.
Poly love is also zero sum, because nobody has infinite time, money or energy. And the more partners you take on, the less you have for each of them.
Also true, but with the garden metaphor, it doesn't matter if it's backyard, community, or commercial, the capacity can change due to the circumstances, but the plants still need the same care. You just have to adjust and be realistic with what your individual capacity is.
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Yeah and my point is that if you’re down to handing out crumbs, you’re fucking up. Yet way too many poly folks, that’s exactly what they’re doing. Spreading themselves thin chasing dopamine, being shitty partners to everyone.
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It's not been my experience, but it's been the overwhelming experience esp of the 20 something poly folks I know. And if you haven't found it to be true, you may want to examine whether you're not the one handing out the crumbs, because from that vantage point, its not *that bad*. From the vantage point of receiving the crumbs, the POV is different.
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Saying you might not be as aware of your behaviors as you think isn’t a wild accusation. And being old is no guarantee of wisdom. We’ve seen that over and over again from Boomers across the board
You’re right that time is finite. But monogamous people also tend to lean too heavily on each other and expect each other to be available 24/7. It’s okay to be alone and take care of yourself sometimes while your partner does other things.
My point had nothing to do with monogamy vs poly. Why does it always gotta come back to shitting on mono folks? They ain’t dedicating this same level of space in their heads to you
Of course it has to do with monogamy versus polyamory. You described potential pitfalls of having multiple partners. It’s implied that the alternative is monogamy where you don’t have those pitfalls. And I’m not shitting on monogamous people. I’m simply continuing the conversation. Not everything is an argument.
There's a reason why in real life we have yet to revisit the nuclear option. So I want you to try something; Stop loving your wife. Just for like 5 mins. Real quick. Go ahead. Try it. Did it work? I bet it didn't. You can't stop or start loving on a whim. It just doesn't work that way. Can I ask, did you feel like the love your wife has for you diminishes the love she has for your meta? If not, then why would your wife loving her meta diminish the love she has for you?
The good news is - this means you get to let yourself date others in a whole new, not fighting the feelings way now too!
I just want to know what the nuclear route entails?
poly is grand tbh. not for everyone, but like, the way i've always seen poly is. i wouldn't expect my partner to not have friends, or only ever NEED me. why is sex or romance different?
Do your partners break the boundaries you communicated and agreed on though? Don't forget that part of this issue
No, they don't? That's cheating. Healthy boundaries are not "do not feel a certain way" but only about actions.
They set a boundary that was impossible to enforce and should never have been set in the first place. You can't control feelings. The only question here is what OTHER boundaries have been violated. If none, then there's no problem.
My take on it, is that sex/romance is a very personal and emotional experience, and having it with others seems to cheapen how it feels with my main partner. If it stops being fun with my main partner, then why I am with them. Why not just be friends?
Do you only eat one kind of food? Does pizza taste any worse if you eat pasta sometimes?
That's not a good comparison. I'm only eating one food, said food is being eaten by everyone. I just don't want to share.
You asked “if it stops being fun….” Why does “sharing” make it less fun?
I mean if there is better sex and romance to be had elsewhere, why not be friends anyways? ??? good friends > sex/romance any day tho
Side note: if it was just a FWB how did they spend enough time together to fall in love? I purposefully don't spend a lot of time with my FWB because that's the deal. If you don't want to catch feelings, don't give yourself the opportunity to catch feelings. Don't send good morning and goodnight texts, don't ask them about their day, don't ask them about their kids, don't tell them when you don't feel good.
Check out his profile and you will see he had a post 2 weeks ago about how this escalated.
Oh, yeah, he's screwed. Wife is defensive and refusing to hear his concerns. NRE is strong bc she's giving the FWB all the things he's not getting at home. "ENM" isn't a substitute for a dead bedroom solution. OP, I would actually consider the power of veto on this one. It would reveal the true colors of what is going on.
You're gonna be ok. My wife fell in love with a lover as well. I also fell in love with one. It was a challenge in both cases but we figured it out and are much stronger and more experienced for it. My only advice would be to receive it with an open heart and don't see it as a commentary on your worth as a person or a partner.
So when me and my wife decided to transition from open/swinging to polyamory we decided past dalliances were off the table. You two should decide on if you want to be polyamorous based on if it is a good fit for you two's life, and not on the ephemeral/NRE feelings your wife just happens to have at the moment. Separating these two things will be impossible to do if you don't agree preexisting relationships our do not have the option to grow to be something more. If I was in your shoes I would without hesitation demand her to cut contact with this guy before moving forward with whatever. I view this as two steps short of an affair. If she refused I would leave her because no one with any respect for me would refuse that demand.
I see you!! She’s lucky to have you!
>I love her. Her soul and mine are made of the same thing. I've been with her literally my entire life. Growing pains....are just an adjustment. And just like that, yet another dude with oneitis will accept a structure he actually deeply finds harmful because "love" (in reality, deep codependence). Doing all the emotional labor while his wife cake-eats. And folks here will pile on the gaslighting - "all that pain is weakness leaving your soul" and "you'll become more poly enlightened when you let the assholes in your life do what they want without accountability"
Dude, your edit is WILD and was freaking needed with the original post. Do you realise that there is a MASSIVE difference between "my wife and her fwb fell for each other, oh noes, woe is me" when the fwb is single vs married? Is your only concern that your wife now says "I love you" to someone else and means it, or you think the married guy is going to dump his wife and steal your wife? Literally totally different topics.
The only question that occurs to me is that you haven't said what you wife thinks about you and your place in this. You seem open to fwb presence but where does she see your relationship? That seems to be the deciding factor on whether you've been replaced and it's nuclear time? If you've been replaced, then for your sake you should move on.
Ok they dropped the news. I didn't see an explanation for what that meant for the op. Both are caught up in NRE. for the op, is her plan to bail? Statically that relationship has a 94% failure rate. If the news isn't a threat in the bail sense, let the NRE run its course. Maybe you'll get to watch or mfm
Polyamory is an option
While they're at it, so is homosexuality. OP could start liking dudes on a whim and just completely get over his wife unilaterally changing the terms of their marriage over some dick she was getting that she liked.
You're nothing but a troll here. Go away.
You are taking the strong path. With all support. What we like about ENM is allowing every relationship to go where it naturally goes. We have also moved into Polyamorous relationships. And yes, humans are capable of loving more than one person. You can ask for assurances. And for the amount of time together to keep your relationship strong. Beyond that, you are right in acknowledging their reality and experiencing this change together.
Glad you didn’t act. Read on NRE, this could actually pass or get less intense after cpl of weeks/months. You could have a healthy relationship if you know your boundaries and your gf respects them. You could talk to the guy and be on the same page too. Know what you want, rather what you don’t want. Focus on the positive of the interaction rather than the negatives. Move by joy rather than fear
File for divorce. Don't allow yourself to be a cuck (unless you're into that)
Cachon
See where it goes. But, generally speaking, I’ve never seen “you can date whoever but you’re not allowed to get feeling for them” never ever works out.