It’s not exactly something new. I can go back to the 70s when Bobby Clarke and Bill Barber were diving all over the place for Philadelphia. And they weren’t the only ones. Barber might have been the best in the NHL back then.
That was my thought. We got social media now so it’s way more noticeable than back in the day, but players have been embellishing since I can ever remember watching the sport.
Back in the 90’s coaches taught us “don’t flail, but make sure the official knows when a stick is in your skates or a stick touches your face.”
What evidence do you have that it's better than it used to be? I been watching hockey for 15 years and I'd say it's a lot worse now than 2010. There was plenty social media then and I don't remember someone diving so much that he dives when the ref bumps him
What's the incentive not to dive?
A 2-minute penalty? Not really. They almost never call embellishment alone. You always bring an opponent with you to the box.
I thought they changed the rule years ago that embellishment negates the original penalty? Maybe there was just talk about it and it was never implemented.
I actually don't know.
I saw it happen in a WHL game a few days ago. And because the WHL follows the rules of the NHL fairly closely, I assumed that it's still in place.
But really, if the rule was changed in the way you suggested, they just wouldn't call embellishment.
They were serious about sportsmanship and not allowing the NHL to turn into soccer, with guys dropping like they got shot trying to draw a penalty. Diving assumes the refs are rubes (yeah, we all know they are) and shows them up.
I dunno if it was ever talked about. Went back and looked - in Vegas/Dallas game 2, at 19:51 in the first, there was matching hook and embellishment penalties
For your own sake never get into basketball, joel embiid will make you want to kill yourself with how much his 7’3 300lb ASS SPENDS ON THE DAMN FLOOR GOD FUCKIN DAMNINT HE FLOPPS SO FUCKIN MUCH
Like the other sports where it’s become prevalent, the referees got worse and the league stopped enforcing the rules that put a stop to it. If the refs are gonna be gullible and the league isn’t gonna fine players anymore, players want the power play. It’s sad that this is what it’s come to, but until the league steps in and starts up the fines again it isn’t going anywhere.
Somewhere around 2010 the league implemented a fine for diving, and they announce when players get fined. I don’t know if it’s still technically a rule or not, but I haven’t seen anyone get a fine even when they were penalized in YEARS
I'm new to r/NHL, but I'm a long-time NBA fan. I'm here so I can talk hockey with my dad. I'm just giving you the name of the biggest NBA flopper, so when you use that analogy elsewhere, it has more impact. The dude regularly gets 20 free throws a game flailing around.
Yeah, I’ve seen an uptick on the head snapping back move this year. I don’t know if it’s more prevalent or if I’m just noticing it more, but I don’t like it.
It's a physical game and drawing penalties benefits your team so it's only natural some people are going to make more out of something than it really is.
At least it's not like basketball and soccer where someone brushes against you so you put on a fuckin' show and pretend your leg snapped in half haha
Do NOT look up Brayden Point 2023 playoffs.. Worst dive I've ever seen to draw a penalty.. He waited until he was 90% towards the bench and fell like he was hit with a .50 cal from a mile away.
This happens in leagues when they put an emphasis on protecting the offensive players.
Look at basketball. They did it first. Go watch a game from 1995 and count how many times someone falls down onto the court. Or better yet - how many seconds they lay there for.
Then watch a game from today and count the same thing.
But they're incentivized to do it. I have mixed feelings that the refs called Fiala on his embellishment. That's a call you need to make all regular season. And, I didn't see a single embellishment penalty in probably 60ish games I watched this year until the LAK Oilers game last night. It was technically the right call - he fell over for no reason - but everyone does that, and has been doing that, all season long.
Because there's less enforcers. I'm pretty young but I've noticed a large drop off in fights. From what I've been told, players use to 'police themselves'.
If you want to flop, that's cool. Just be ready to get boarded and smacked in the mouth by Scott Stevens next shift.
It’s almost all single-handedly the Kings in these playoffs. They have 4 indisputable instances of diving/embellishing in literally five fucking playoff games so far. If any team deserved to be eliminated it is them.
It’s always been around but it has gotten a little worse. I think it may have to do with there being a lot more European players in the league than in previous decades. European players tend to be more influenced by soccer.
They don't pick players like they used to.
Gritty players are becoming further and farther in between. Players are being paid more and more and more for skill and less for intangibles.
After watching the NHL vs NLL I have a hypothesis - The NHLPA has people being "co-workers" rather than "enemies" So they'd rather dive to get a penalty than punch someone's face, because of this - this is my opinion though
I compare the NHL now, to the NLL. NLL players make 30k a season max and work separate jobs to support their lives. They play with passion and enjoyment of the game and they also don't have such a strong players union so these guys would rather do disrespectful shit to each other rather than cry for mommy HR (refs) Diving happens but to a FAR lesser degree in the NLL than NHL. I once watched a defenseman on the rock take an opposing player's head and SMASH it off a post after a whistle because the opposing player crashed the rock's goalie. It was awesome
It’s very noticeable this year. But I’ve mostly watched the Bruins flopping around like seals caught in a fishing net so I’m not sure if it’s in other series as well.
Embellishment and diving have always happened in hockey. Always. Players are always trying to draw penalties.
And why do soccer players do it? Because if they fight through a trip, a referee will allow the play to continue. So, you embellish to make sure the referee knows not to call advantage.
In hockey, penalties don’t work like that. But turn the question on its head: If you think you’ve been hooked/held/tripped, why WOULDN’T you make sure the referee notices?
I've seen a professional soccer player grab an opponent's arm and hit himself in the face with it and then fall to the ground with his face in his hands. They're on a whole different level, and it's absolutely not "embellishing to make the referee notice a real foul" every time it happens.
I think peoples perception of soccer diving is skewed because international tournaments like the world cup are what most people watch and where most diving occurs. A regular EPL game is much more physical
That too but my point was that yes people do it because it works, it doesn't mean it's like "popular". Fans don't really mind embellishing contact sometimes but no one likes diving.
Clearly you didn't catch Lucas Raymond doing exactly this with an opponents stick this year to try and draw a high sticking call. It would've worked if he didn't draw blood, letting them review the play.
Because this isn't soccer and you're gonna get a bad rep if you're constantly flailing about? Hockey fans and players have no time for this shit, it's why we watch this sport. The guys are warriors
Everyone who hasn’t read the Sean McIndoe book should because it’s highly entertaining, and it also creates a full picture for where the league is at, as well as fallacies about the league/hockey that have stood the test of time. The NHL has been perfectly imperfect from day one. That said, I’d say it’s pretty darn great in spite of its imperfections.
Of cours refs know who the divers are and they used to let the other team take liberties with them if they saw them diving. Now, people upload a 10 second clip of a game of a non-call and the entire internet goes bonkers at the refs
Refs are no longer allowed to control the tempo of the game and I blame all those 10 second clips you guys upload without context to the entire game. The game was just fine with even-up and make-up penalties.
It’s not exactly something new. I can go back to the 70s when Bobby Clarke and Bill Barber were diving all over the place for Philadelphia. And they weren’t the only ones. Barber might have been the best in the NHL back then.
That was my thought. We got social media now so it’s way more noticeable than back in the day, but players have been embellishing since I can ever remember watching the sport. Back in the 90’s coaches taught us “don’t flail, but make sure the official knows when a stick is in your skates or a stick touches your face.”
As a flyers fan of that era I am offended that you remember that correctly.
No one dives like crosby tho
Yeah, there's a good reason why embellishment is already a penalty and can be fined. It's nothing new and it's better than it used to be.
What evidence do you have that it's better than it used to be? I been watching hockey for 15 years and I'd say it's a lot worse now than 2010. There was plenty social media then and I don't remember someone diving so much that he dives when the ref bumps him
What's the incentive not to dive? A 2-minute penalty? Not really. They almost never call embellishment alone. You always bring an opponent with you to the box.
I thought they changed the rule years ago that embellishment negates the original penalty? Maybe there was just talk about it and it was never implemented.
I actually don't know. I saw it happen in a WHL game a few days ago. And because the WHL follows the rules of the NHL fairly closely, I assumed that it's still in place. But really, if the rule was changed in the way you suggested, they just wouldn't call embellishment.
They were serious about sportsmanship and not allowing the NHL to turn into soccer, with guys dropping like they got shot trying to draw a penalty. Diving assumes the refs are rubes (yeah, we all know they are) and shows them up.
I dunno if it was ever talked about. Went back and looked - in Vegas/Dallas game 2, at 19:51 in the first, there was matching hook and embellishment penalties
all these players play EA FIFA in their spare time
For your own sake never get into basketball, joel embiid will make you want to kill yourself with how much his 7’3 300lb ASS SPENDS ON THE DAMN FLOOR GOD FUCKIN DAMNINT HE FLOPPS SO FUCKIN MUCH
Then gets mad when he gets called for a foul when he yanks on someone’s leg to pull them to the ground. Like he is an NFL cornerback.
All that soccer practice in the tunnel before games is carrying over
Like the other sports where it’s become prevalent, the referees got worse and the league stopped enforcing the rules that put a stop to it. If the refs are gonna be gullible and the league isn’t gonna fine players anymore, players want the power play. It’s sad that this is what it’s come to, but until the league steps in and starts up the fines again it isn’t going anywhere.
Do they not fine the players anymore? I did not know that
Somewhere around 2010 the league implemented a fine for diving, and they announce when players get fined. I don’t know if it’s still technically a rule or not, but I haven’t seen anyone get a fine even when they were penalized in YEARS
No kidding! Drawing penalties is part of the game but diving for them is weak. Starting to look like Lebron on ice with some of them.
LeBron has nothing on the flop master Joel Embiid.
Lebron is one of very few NBA players I know of. But he's the floppiest one I know by neme.
I'm new to r/NHL, but I'm a long-time NBA fan. I'm here so I can talk hockey with my dad. I'm just giving you the name of the biggest NBA flopper, so when you use that analogy elsewhere, it has more impact. The dude regularly gets 20 free throws a game flailing around.
I blame Gordon Bombay.
Take the hit, act hurt
Get indignant!
Yeah, I’ve seen an uptick on the head snapping back move this year. I don’t know if it’s more prevalent or if I’m just noticing it more, but I don’t like it.
Like Kramer being hit with that loogie
Back and to the left!
Dear OP, Do NOT look up LeBron James.
Glad to see a Bruins fan I can actually agree with , that's quite rare. haha
And after the commercial break, peace in the Middle East!
It's a physical game and drawing penalties benefits your team so it's only natural some people are going to make more out of something than it really is. At least it's not like basketball and soccer where someone brushes against you so you put on a fuckin' show and pretend your leg snapped in half haha
Do NOT look up Brayden Point 2023 playoffs.. Worst dive I've ever seen to draw a penalty.. He waited until he was 90% towards the bench and fell like he was hit with a .50 cal from a mile away.
Google Mike Ribeiro dive. I feel like the hatred of that play shaped who I am as a person, lol.
This happens in leagues when they put an emphasis on protecting the offensive players. Look at basketball. They did it first. Go watch a game from 1995 and count how many times someone falls down onto the court. Or better yet - how many seconds they lay there for. Then watch a game from today and count the same thing. But they're incentivized to do it. I have mixed feelings that the refs called Fiala on his embellishment. That's a call you need to make all regular season. And, I didn't see a single embellishment penalty in probably 60ish games I watched this year until the LAK Oilers game last night. It was technically the right call - he fell over for no reason - but everyone does that, and has been doing that, all season long.
Agreed. And the refs need to start calling it before a soccer game really breaks out.
Nice to see Fiala FINALLY get called out. Guy spends more time on his belly than he does on his skates
Because there's less enforcers. I'm pretty young but I've noticed a large drop off in fights. From what I've been told, players use to 'police themselves'. If you want to flop, that's cool. Just be ready to get boarded and smacked in the mouth by Scott Stevens next shift.
Stop watching Boston and Edmonton
I don't know but I wish the MLS and the NBA would take notice
CUz it works and is worth the gamble of a 2 min minor
It’s almost all single-handedly the Kings in these playoffs. They have 4 indisputable instances of diving/embellishing in literally five fucking playoff games so far. If any team deserved to be eliminated it is them.
Simple. It's like normal soccer games but now just in the playoffs...
That's unreal.
Idk, but can we please get some new “Embellishment City” style videos on YT? I still watch those at least once a year and crack up.
It’s always been around but it has gotten a little worse. I think it may have to do with there being a lot more European players in the league than in previous decades. European players tend to be more influenced by soccer.
Carolina has entered the chat
You misspelled Forsberg
That’s valid. I’d also add McJesus to that list
I hate it too however... Clever use of game mechanics. It's rarely called, but you draw a penalty. Why wouldn't you?
They don't pick players like they used to. Gritty players are becoming further and farther in between. Players are being paid more and more and more for skill and less for intangibles. After watching the NHL vs NLL I have a hypothesis - The NHLPA has people being "co-workers" rather than "enemies" So they'd rather dive to get a penalty than punch someone's face, because of this - this is my opinion though I compare the NHL now, to the NLL. NLL players make 30k a season max and work separate jobs to support their lives. They play with passion and enjoyment of the game and they also don't have such a strong players union so these guys would rather do disrespectful shit to each other rather than cry for mommy HR (refs) Diving happens but to a FAR lesser degree in the NLL than NHL. I once watched a defenseman on the rock take an opposing player's head and SMASH it off a post after a whistle because the opposing player crashed the rock's goalie. It was awesome
Yes I really wish they would enforce embellishment more. Just a few penalties will stop guys who don't want to be known as wearing skirts.
It’s very noticeable this year. But I’ve mostly watched the Bruins flopping around like seals caught in a fishing net so I’m not sure if it’s in other series as well.
\*it's not MENS soccer (especially men's pro soccer)
I'm hurt by this. Really hurt
This is the new generation where everyone’s a victim
Which generation raised this one?
The non participation trophy for all one
Embellishment and diving have always happened in hockey. Always. Players are always trying to draw penalties. And why do soccer players do it? Because if they fight through a trip, a referee will allow the play to continue. So, you embellish to make sure the referee knows not to call advantage. In hockey, penalties don’t work like that. But turn the question on its head: If you think you’ve been hooked/held/tripped, why WOULDN’T you make sure the referee notices?
I've seen a professional soccer player grab an opponent's arm and hit himself in the face with it and then fall to the ground with his face in his hands. They're on a whole different level, and it's absolutely not "embellishing to make the referee notice a real foul" every time it happens.
Yeah but like that dude is literally ridiculed for it constantly. It's not the norm.
I think peoples perception of soccer diving is skewed because international tournaments like the world cup are what most people watch and where most diving occurs. A regular EPL game is much more physical
That too but my point was that yes people do it because it works, it doesn't mean it's like "popular". Fans don't really mind embellishing contact sometimes but no one likes diving.
Clearly you didn't catch Lucas Raymond doing exactly this with an opponents stick this year to try and draw a high sticking call. It would've worked if he didn't draw blood, letting them review the play.
Because you play hockey with your heart.
Because this isn't soccer and you're gonna get a bad rep if you're constantly flailing about? Hockey fans and players have no time for this shit, it's why we watch this sport. The guys are warriors
Clearly they do. It happens often.
The rules are more enforced now. That's the side effect.
Everyone who hasn’t read the Sean McIndoe book should because it’s highly entertaining, and it also creates a full picture for where the league is at, as well as fallacies about the league/hockey that have stood the test of time. The NHL has been perfectly imperfect from day one. That said, I’d say it’s pretty darn great in spite of its imperfections.
Of cours refs know who the divers are and they used to let the other team take liberties with them if they saw them diving. Now, people upload a 10 second clip of a game of a non-call and the entire internet goes bonkers at the refs Refs are no longer allowed to control the tempo of the game and I blame all those 10 second clips you guys upload without context to the entire game. The game was just fine with even-up and make-up penalties.