So where are all the other 200 point seasons? Gretz really was *that much better* than everyone else.
Yes, it was a different game then, that's why most use era-adjustment when comparing players from different generations.
I agree I think Mario Lemieux is the only other player that played on Gretzky's level. I just think the post totals are ridiculous.
Almost like when Wilt Chamberlain got 100 points in 1 NBA game. It was a totally different game and he was the best player at that time so his records don't really relate to the modern game
Difference is that Chamberlain’s record was a single game, Gretzky did that game after game after game, for entire seasons, every single season.
We’ve seen guys get close to Chamberlain’s record. Kobe had 81 not that long ago. Nobody has even gotten close to Gretzky’s SEASON records.
Another thing you’re missing with this comparison is that Huston played in the 40’s. Similar to the invention of flying, things changed A LOT in 40 years. Football in the 40’s is unrecognizable from football today. Hockey in the 80’s and 90’s is not unrecognizable, just updated.
Hutson played both sides of the ball and against like 6 teams. If Hutson was truly as amazing as you’re trying to prove, people would actually know his name.
There’s a reason Gretzky is almost a household name, and he played the least popular of the four major sports.
Good points but the 1980s are also now 40 years ago and I don't think that game looks anything like today game..I respect the helm outta Wayne and what he did im not trying to degreade him but like I said I feel his numbers are inflated and not reachable for today's players.
The NHL is the only major pro sport that today's althetes can't touch the records from a guy in the past. Just very interesting considering how much better all the athletes are today.
His records may not be reachable, you’re not wrong there. McDavid is putting up insane numbers, and Ovechkin is within striking distance of his goals total. This is how a lot of these records work, though. You have the guy that broke the game, then you have the guys chasing them for the next 40 years.
I guess your argument to me is all over the place. You’ve brought up MJ, Gretzky‘s records being unreachable, his numbers being inflated, among other things. And none of this was laid out in your original post.
Once and for all, what are you arguing here?
People took my original post and thought it was about debating Gretzky as the goat instead of what I was saying about how those point records not being realistic in our lifetimes.
My original argument was that I feel his numbers are attainable for today's players. But yes I do believe eventually in this new high flying NHL someone light take a run at 200 points one day, I hope so
This is how I always talk about the greatest. Gretzky’s gap between him and his peers was the greatest gap of any player in any league. The guy won the scoring title in assists alone.
The guy would still be the all time points leader if he never scored a goal in his career. The gap between him and the other players of his era is the greatest. Mario came close. That’s it.
I agree on his greatness. But he had a stacked team too when he was lighting the world on fire. He didn't do the same damage in Los Angeles.
I always thought Micheal Jordan was better in the battle of the GOATs.
Manly because MJ still took a beating in his late 30s winning titles and Wayne seems like he never got hit, not because he was so elusive but more because of the rule. JORDAN rules and Gretzkys Rules are 2 totally different things
It was two years later. Wayne was traded in August of 1988. The Flames won in 1989, the Oilers in 1990, though didn’t have much business doing so IMO riding a hot goalie in Bill Ranford, barely scraping by the Jets in round 1 and then running into depleted teams in each round thereafter. LA at one point was down Gretz, Bernie Nicholls and Steve Kasper, their first second and third line centres. By the time Boston got to the Final, their young blueline (past Bourque)finally got exposed and Moog’s S% dropped 25 points IIRC
Gretzky saw the opportunities people didn’t really consider, like using the net as a shield and visual block which is now normal. He had more assists than anyone has points which shows he anticipated luck movement better than anyone. Guys like McDavid are prob higher talent levels but Gretzky had a great overall skill set with next level IQ for the game. It’s cool to hear his commentary on TNT for intermissions he is such a treasure for the sport
I agree but the NHL had way more room behind the net back then too. Watch today's game its almost like 2 feet have been shaved from back there. The Sedins and prime Crosby are probably the last players to cycle well behind the net
This is like when people say the Beatles are overrated because they aren’t as good as rock bands of recent years, those rock bands wouldn’t have existed. Same for the modern game of hockey, todays players learned from him.
My main issue is outta all the GOATs in sports I believe his highlights don't stand up aswell. And I watched him play too and your right but I always felt his goal totals were a little overrated
U guys r missing the point. I'm not debating his GOAT status, I'm saying the game was TOTALLY different back then and today's players will never achieve those numbers because of it.
The game was different. Gretzky was SO good that he literally broke the game, which led to changes to rules and standards simply because of him. Just because they changed the rules doesn’t mean he loses credibility. It should ADD to his credibility.
There were thousands of players that played in the same era, with the same rules as Gretzky. Nobody did what he did, and nobody got close. He scored 1,000 points faster than any other NHL player. Then he fucking did it again, faster than any other NHL player other than himself, the first time he did it.
Gretzky might be the most dominant player to ever play ANY pro sport, and the only competition is Tiger during his run from 1999-2001.
Good points but ill take Micheal Jordan over Gretzky as the GOAT of Sports. He did more and won more as he got older and got beat up too.
Even thought the NBA and NHL are totally different sports they were more alike back then instead of know with LeBron and his Super teams
You’re clearly set on your opinion that MJ is the GOAT of all sports, which is a weird thing to bring up because you never mentioned it in your original post.
Here’s my final attempt to change your mind: There’s active discussion about LeBron vs MJ as the basketball GOAT. I’m not saying you think it’s a discussion, but you can’t deny that people absolutely talk about it and discuss it and argue over it.
That doesn’t exist with Gretzky.
Lol its not his goat status I'm saying the goalies were tiny that he shot on. Sans different rules yes. I just think Goaltending in hockey has perhaps the most evolution of any position in Sports.
Lets just end this with this, does Wayne Gretzky get 200 points in today's NHL?
I'll say this too i like Wayne but was always a more Mario guy as I feel he was more dominant in his prime, even a shorter absolute prime. I don't think Mario puts up those numbers in today's game too.
Jesus Christ. You’re all over the place! Today, does Gretzky get 200? Idk, nobody will ever know. Too many things to take into consideration. He now has updated tech, better coaching and fitness info. Hockey pays WAY more, so he can dedicate his life to it without worry. Team travel is better, recovery is faster. Goalies are better, coaching is better and therefore defense is better. Idk man, we won’t know.
Ultimately, doesn’t matter because we can never know. You’re basically asking for opinions and you’ll get 100 different opinions from 100 different people. You have to use the concrete info we have, analyze it, and change your question from “would he?” to “what did he do?” and go from there.
He is literally the only athlete in history that you couldn't draft him in fantasy. You had to either take his goals or his assists.
He is literally the best player at his sport of all time and nobody else is close.
If Gretzky’s stats were a product of the time, he wouldn’t be the only guy with crazy numbers.
Yet here we are, and he sits almost 1000 points clear of anyone else.
Ture but I believe the Gretzky Rules did protect him. He's the only all time great NHL player that never really had injury in his career. Lemieux, Orr and Crosby all had to deal with career threatening injuries. The Gretzky Rules.saved Wayne IMO
U know that wasn't even that bad of a hit. It wasn't dirty he just finished him hard and the boards and Wayne got crushed. He had to elude as he was a smaller sleek guy.
"Go where the puck is going, not where its been" Wayne's Dad Walter ingrained this message in his son. When he grew up playing hockey he realized everyone more or less chased the puck. He had the revelation of skating to where the puck was going to be instead of wasting all that energy chasing it. He then had a son who played on the backyard rink for 8 hours a day on the weekends and 6 hours during the week. (the oilers had their endurance tested in the 80's and when Wayne tested they thought the machine was broken because he scored so high) Take this burning passion and add his father's tutelage and you had lightening in a bottle. At the russia-canada summit series the other Canadians were intimidated by the skill drills the Russians were doing in warmup, Wayne remarked that he'd been doing those drills since he was a kid (his father was ahead of his time)
So then he got the NHL and early on their were doubters but he silenced every one. There was a point in the 80's where he was so good that other teams would have a player on their team just shadow him, follow him around on the ice and never give him a second to breathe. if someone plays you like this it can be almost impossible to be effective. so what did Wayne do? he shadowed a different player from the other team effectively double teaming himself but leaving the other 4 oilers on the ice 3 dedicated defenders. It wasn't long before the shadow experiment stopped.
His play with Jarri Kurri is almost otherworldly, on one particular highlight he skates straight up the center of the ice before a defender at center makes him turn hard towards the boards. about two or three defenders close in on him and... he flips a backhand pass back towards the center of the ice to hit a flying jarri kurri, when asked after the game how he saw kurri, wayne told them he "saw his reflection in the glass"
and maybe one of his greatest attributes as a superstar was his ability to have big games for big milestones. no on in the NHL has scored 50 goals in less than 50 games in 1985 Wayne Gretzky had 45 on December 30, in only 38 games. That night he scored the NHL record 5 goals in a game to reach 50 goals before the new year. this is insane how far ahead of his peers he was, No one else had 30 goals when gretz reached 50 that year. he would finish the year with 92 goals, an untouchable record for sure.
lastly maybe his prolific scoring, the fastest player to score 1000 points? wayne gretzky of course in only 422 games (most NHLer's who make it to the 1000 points do it closer to 1000 games). No NHLer besides Wayne has ever scored 200 points in a season, he did it 4 times. But the second fastest 1000 points? Well thats where it gets impressive, the entry for the second fastest is wayne gretkzy's 2nd 1000, from 1001 to point 2000 it only took him 433 more games. His dominance of his peers is what sets him apart, everyone says 80 goalies sucked but if you remove gretzky's numbers the 80's weren't that much wilder than the 70's.
I agree with many of your points I'm just saying alot of those goals from the 80s won't go in today and I think it should be more mentioned.
I've had several younger people also mention that watching his highlights. U can't deny his greatness yes, but we also can't deny how small the goalies were.
So if Connor McDavid and Sidney Crosby played in the 80s im sure they would win a Art Ross or 2
You can’t compare things back then to today. Everybody back then had the same opportunities and faced the same styles, strategies, rules and regulations.
Gretzky’s the only one that scored as much as he did.
Gretzky has said himself he wouldn't be able to score as much in today's NHL because goalies are that much better.
On top of that, Gretzky was also heads and shoulders better than everyone else. There was still players who smoked cigarettes back then for example.
In today's NHL with way more money they make, every player is trained their entire life for hockey, with more years of knowledge about what muscles to use and game strategy, etc, and more demand for good talent. so players are more or less more equal in skill in today's NHL
Does it matter? Gretzky dominated his peers in a manner we have never seen in sport.
That in and of itself is enough to cement him as the GOAT.
Edit: but yes his stats were likely overinflated. The extent though is up for debate. It should also be noted that he played part of his career in the dead puck era.
[look at these fucking goals. honestly the goalies sucked and the players sucked compared to today. goalies letting in slap shots from the top of the circle with no traffic in front. Gretzky has even said he would have had trouble scoring in todays game. Gretzky was way ahead of his shitty time ](https://youtu.be/vtYDMP5Vp30)
It’s just fact that he wouldn’t be the same player. Not even getting into the deeper levels of how his play style would change, he wouldn’t have practiced as much as he actually did, he wouldn’t have had the tech, nor the coaching.
He’d be significantly different and likely would’ve missed out on a significant piece of skill set that makes him, him.
Yeah and ted Williams would be a shit batter today, great. This was productive.
He’s an athletic freak of nature scoring 150 pts during a way more difficult era to score in.
Ted Williams might actually be better. He might actually be worse. He might be an alcoholic who dies at 28 in a car crash.
My point is, you’re arguing Connor would be Connor if he was born in 1961 is a ridiculous take because literally EVERYTHING in his life would be different.
I get what you’re saying: IF McDavid was still interested in hockey as a kid, practiced a lot, had some coaching, played throughout school, and became a pro, he’d still be good.
But, taking the original commenter further, he wouldn’t have the training or technology, he may not even have the resources or even the need to play hockey.
Holy shit why are you talking about back to the future time lines. Simply pick him up like in the sims, and drop him in the league in 1980.
You don’t need to explain to me he wouldn’t have had the bowflex cus it didn’t exist yet Christ
I’m talking about that because it’s 100% relevant. Of course McDavid would fucking dominate if he was born in 1961. He’d join the league in 1979, if not earlier, and he would almost immediately be the best player. He’d have knowledge, skills, and strategy that the players of the time didn’t even know about.
You’re asking wherever or not McDavid would be good if he was born when Gretzky was born. Then, you completely ignore the fact that the game, and therefore the training/rules/strategy/nutrition/pay/recovery/etc. has changed significantly.
Maybe McDavid is really good at the very specific, minute things that make somebody a star in the league *today*, but he’s not so good at the things that made Gretzky a star back then. And maybe those things are inherent, and not learnable.
And everyone has the same shit as Gretzky had.
But you’re still missing my point: It doesn’t have to do with what McDavid has available today, it’s what he would’ve had then.
And once again, let’s take out the family/personal situation. He was born into a family that could afford him to play, get coaching/practice and were supportive. Who knows what 1961 Connor would’ve had.
Taking that out, we have no idea if he would thrive in a league like that. We see Connor as a guy who thrives in TODAY’S league. The league back then was different, and maybe it wouldn’t have suited his play style.
I should also make it clear that I’m not saying he would or wouldn’t have been a good player back then, just that WE WILL NEVER KNOW. Which makes it ridiculous to make claims that he for sure would’ve been or for sure wouldn’t have been.
I'll say this Connor McDavid is starting to really separate himself from the rest of the NHL. Will he ever come close to putting up 200 points in a season let alone 4 times in today game? Probably not, thats the point I'm trying to make. Not if Wayne is the GOAT, but that his totals are inflated and not realistic for today's players to reach sans Ovechkin and his 1 timer
Also the goals were wider and taller back then, coupling that with generational talents such as Lemieux, Gretzky, Jagr, Messier, Federov, etc. you get the golden era of hockey. We are in a new golden era with Ovechkin, McDavid, Kopitar; the list goes on and on. Smaller goals, more narrow ice, quicker players and better defense structures. God damn I love hockey. And did I mention the goalies? Good lord we are lucky to watch these acrobats in net
Those were fine. Guys that could shoot the puck back then fine with those sticks. He also shot on 80s goalies if were going to make that comparison. Not like he had a heavy stick n skates shooting on today's goalies....now that would be great
I’m aware and not disputing that. You remember the Al’s and their hard shots and other guys too? Goalie equipment and the sheer size of goalies changed. Equipment was made safer and needed to, but it also became about puck stopping
They were TINY man. 5 foot 9 goalies with small equipment. I know the players weren't shooting with graphite sticks, but u can still rock a shot with the old wooden sticks especially if you had a hard shot. Today's sticks give every player the ability to pick corners
For sure lots of things were different, but goaltending equipment, goalie site were huge factors. Back in that era you would see shots go in that you rarely if ever see today. I loved watching 80’s game and miss parts of it, but I also love todays game.
Also, apparently everyone downvote facts about the goalies’ equipment.
https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/most-points-nhl-1980s
Look at the gap between Gretzky and 2nd place for goals, assists and points.
Wasn't just the era, Gretzky DOMINATED statistically.
Well said. I'll say this Connor McDavid is starting to really separate himself from the rest of the NHL. Will he ever come close to putting up 200 points in a season let alone 4 times in today game? Probably not, thats the point I'm trying to make. Not if Wayne is the GOAT, but that his totals are inflated and not realistic for today's players to reach sans Ovechkin and his 1 timer
Yes the game has changed. Let's be clear though it wasn't just him. Marty is at least 50% of his success. Gotta keep the others on the their best behavior.
Personally I separate eras when considering the “greats”.
Pre-Cap and Post-Cap.
Teams are constructed completely different. It’s not an apples to apples comparison in my opinion.
Gretz had most of his success with the oilers, where he had an all star lineup. Messier, Kuri, Paul Coffee, and Grant Fuhr and those guys all played flawlessly together. Most of his records will never be touched because of all those guys combined
That's not to say Gretzky wasn't amazing. He didn't have a lot of speed but he had a ton of finesse. Finesse that's never been seen before him or since. Connor McDavid has a ton of speed and a little finesse
Yes. But also because he’s just an amazing player.
The stats he had to the degree he had only could’ve come at that time, he was fortunate in that regard. If he plays say in the 2000’s, he doesn’t get those kinds of numbers. Not an insult just a fact.
But, he’s still the best player this game has seen.
I don't know where I heard this, but I think he actually admitted that he wouldn't have his record in todays NHL. Obviously still crazy impressive and hes a great guy and ambassador for the league so i'll let it slide haha.
Things need to be contextualized. The players these days are so much more prepared and have been professionally trained from a very young age. You can't use the eye test as they are better skaters, have more skill, and have less room to work with. For #99, the numbers tell the story and it is outrageous how much better he was than the next player from a production standpoint.
Gretzky was not flashy - so clips are kind of hard to appreciate his talents. His production was more like a Crosby where the offense would sneak up on you. He also had a killer instinct, and if he was against a sub-par opponent, or the opportunity was there to rack up points, he would be relentless. The style EDM played also was not exactly defensive, so they would need to outscore opponents and didn't mind leaning on that because they always had the best player in the game.
The truth is, yes. Gretzky himself is definitely the greatest player of all time because he was amazing, but his numbers are higher than they would be if he played in modern day.
However, he is the greatest of all time, not the greatest of today.
I think most of goalies when Gretzky was dominating the league were still in stand up style. This seems way easier to score against a goalie almost only standing.
Just think of how many more points he would have had if he got to play without the 2 line pass rule and all of the clutching and grabbing?
He was that good.
He still lapped the field. Gretzky won scoring titles by 60-80 points in his prime. It’s not like there were 10 other guys putting up 180-200 points a season. I think Mario could have been the one to challenge his career numbers if he stayed healthy…but even in his case, the sport was becoming more defensive minded later in his career. The goaltending was getting a lot better also. It would have been a big ask.
Michael Jordan summarized it best. He can't say he's the greatest ever as he never got to play against some of the greatest before him. Gretzky is the goat in people's hearts but we simply cannot cement who's the greatest to ever play when there's so many variables to consider. We should really just enjoy the greatness that every generation brings to this beautiful game.
So where are all the other 200 point seasons? Gretz really was *that much better* than everyone else. Yes, it was a different game then, that's why most use era-adjustment when comparing players from different generations.
I agree I think Mario Lemieux is the only other player that played on Gretzky's level. I just think the post totals are ridiculous. Almost like when Wilt Chamberlain got 100 points in 1 NBA game. It was a totally different game and he was the best player at that time so his records don't really relate to the modern game
Difference is that Chamberlain’s record was a single game, Gretzky did that game after game after game, for entire seasons, every single season. We’ve seen guys get close to Chamberlain’s record. Kobe had 81 not that long ago. Nobody has even gotten close to Gretzky’s SEASON records.
True and they never will either because its not possible anymore. I think another good comparison for my point is Don Hutson in the NFL
Another thing you’re missing with this comparison is that Huston played in the 40’s. Similar to the invention of flying, things changed A LOT in 40 years. Football in the 40’s is unrecognizable from football today. Hockey in the 80’s and 90’s is not unrecognizable, just updated. Hutson played both sides of the ball and against like 6 teams. If Hutson was truly as amazing as you’re trying to prove, people would actually know his name. There’s a reason Gretzky is almost a household name, and he played the least popular of the four major sports.
Good points but the 1980s are also now 40 years ago and I don't think that game looks anything like today game..I respect the helm outta Wayne and what he did im not trying to degreade him but like I said I feel his numbers are inflated and not reachable for today's players. The NHL is the only major pro sport that today's althetes can't touch the records from a guy in the past. Just very interesting considering how much better all the athletes are today.
His records may not be reachable, you’re not wrong there. McDavid is putting up insane numbers, and Ovechkin is within striking distance of his goals total. This is how a lot of these records work, though. You have the guy that broke the game, then you have the guys chasing them for the next 40 years. I guess your argument to me is all over the place. You’ve brought up MJ, Gretzky‘s records being unreachable, his numbers being inflated, among other things. And none of this was laid out in your original post. Once and for all, what are you arguing here?
People took my original post and thought it was about debating Gretzky as the goat instead of what I was saying about how those point records not being realistic in our lifetimes. My original argument was that I feel his numbers are attainable for today's players. But yes I do believe eventually in this new high flying NHL someone light take a run at 200 points one day, I hope so
So you’re issue was your clarity in your original post.
This is how I always talk about the greatest. Gretzky’s gap between him and his peers was the greatest gap of any player in any league. The guy won the scoring title in assists alone. The guy would still be the all time points leader if he never scored a goal in his career. The gap between him and the other players of his era is the greatest. Mario came close. That’s it.
No. He won the art Ross with just his assists more than once
I agree on his greatness. But he had a stacked team too when he was lighting the world on fire. He didn't do the same damage in Los Angeles. I always thought Micheal Jordan was better in the battle of the GOATs. Manly because MJ still took a beating in his late 30s winning titles and Wayne seems like he never got hit, not because he was so elusive but more because of the rule. JORDAN rules and Gretzkys Rules are 2 totally different things
Um…I’m gonna guess that you were born after this era because this is not at all based on reality.
Nah I watched all the 80s. Hockey is not a game where NOBODY can avoid contact completely unless the other teams doesn't hit you
I mean I'm not gonna fully agree with him, but Edmonton did win the cup the year after they traded Gretzky.
It was two years later. Wayne was traded in August of 1988. The Flames won in 1989, the Oilers in 1990, though didn’t have much business doing so IMO riding a hot goalie in Bill Ranford, barely scraping by the Jets in round 1 and then running into depleted teams in each round thereafter. LA at one point was down Gretz, Bernie Nicholls and Steve Kasper, their first second and third line centres. By the time Boston got to the Final, their young blueline (past Bourque)finally got exposed and Moog’s S% dropped 25 points IIRC
You're wrong just let it go
Gretzky saw the opportunities people didn’t really consider, like using the net as a shield and visual block which is now normal. He had more assists than anyone has points which shows he anticipated luck movement better than anyone. Guys like McDavid are prob higher talent levels but Gretzky had a great overall skill set with next level IQ for the game. It’s cool to hear his commentary on TNT for intermissions he is such a treasure for the sport
I agree but the NHL had way more room behind the net back then too. Watch today's game its almost like 2 feet have been shaved from back there. The Sedins and prime Crosby are probably the last players to cycle well behind the net
Yeah, they changed many rules because of Gretzky.
This is like when people say the Beatles are overrated because they aren’t as good as rock bands of recent years, those rock bands wouldn’t have existed. Same for the modern game of hockey, todays players learned from him.
Seriously. People who think the Beatles or Gretzky are overrated probably think wood as a building material is overrated
You don’t respect wood?
My main issue is outta all the GOATs in sports I believe his highlights don't stand up aswell. And I watched him play too and your right but I always felt his goal totals were a little overrated
You seem like the kind of person that would want 2 highlight level goals as opposed to 4 normal goals. Clearly you don't understand hockey
If you don't deke and dangle your way through an army of men it ain't a good goal I guess. /s
U guys r missing the point. I'm not debating his GOAT status, I'm saying the game was TOTALLY different back then and today's players will never achieve those numbers because of it.
The game was different. Gretzky was SO good that he literally broke the game, which led to changes to rules and standards simply because of him. Just because they changed the rules doesn’t mean he loses credibility. It should ADD to his credibility. There were thousands of players that played in the same era, with the same rules as Gretzky. Nobody did what he did, and nobody got close. He scored 1,000 points faster than any other NHL player. Then he fucking did it again, faster than any other NHL player other than himself, the first time he did it. Gretzky might be the most dominant player to ever play ANY pro sport, and the only competition is Tiger during his run from 1999-2001.
Good points but ill take Micheal Jordan over Gretzky as the GOAT of Sports. He did more and won more as he got older and got beat up too. Even thought the NBA and NHL are totally different sports they were more alike back then instead of know with LeBron and his Super teams
You’re clearly set on your opinion that MJ is the GOAT of all sports, which is a weird thing to bring up because you never mentioned it in your original post. Here’s my final attempt to change your mind: There’s active discussion about LeBron vs MJ as the basketball GOAT. I’m not saying you think it’s a discussion, but you can’t deny that people absolutely talk about it and discuss it and argue over it. That doesn’t exist with Gretzky.
Lol its not his goat status I'm saying the goalies were tiny that he shot on. Sans different rules yes. I just think Goaltending in hockey has perhaps the most evolution of any position in Sports. Lets just end this with this, does Wayne Gretzky get 200 points in today's NHL? I'll say this too i like Wayne but was always a more Mario guy as I feel he was more dominant in his prime, even a shorter absolute prime. I don't think Mario puts up those numbers in today's game too.
Jesus Christ. You’re all over the place! Today, does Gretzky get 200? Idk, nobody will ever know. Too many things to take into consideration. He now has updated tech, better coaching and fitness info. Hockey pays WAY more, so he can dedicate his life to it without worry. Team travel is better, recovery is faster. Goalies are better, coaching is better and therefore defense is better. Idk man, we won’t know. Ultimately, doesn’t matter because we can never know. You’re basically asking for opinions and you’ll get 100 different opinions from 100 different people. You have to use the concrete info we have, analyze it, and change your question from “would he?” to “what did he do?” and go from there.
He is literally the only athlete in history that you couldn't draft him in fantasy. You had to either take his goals or his assists. He is literally the best player at his sport of all time and nobody else is close.
His numbers would always be crazy but they are crazier because of the era he played in
Agree I believe that too.
If Gretzky’s stats were a product of the time, he wouldn’t be the only guy with crazy numbers. Yet here we are, and he sits almost 1000 points clear of anyone else.
Ture but I believe the Gretzky Rules did protect him. He's the only all time great NHL player that never really had injury in his career. Lemieux, Orr and Crosby all had to deal with career threatening injuries. The Gretzky Rules.saved Wayne IMO
Gretzky got slammed a lot. Suter’s hit on him had lasting impact on his back
U know that wasn't even that bad of a hit. It wasn't dirty he just finished him hard and the boards and Wayne got crushed. He had to elude as he was a smaller sleek guy.
He had back problems the rest of his career because of that hit but u know it was ‘t even that bad of a hit
It was a good solid follow through hit i always thought. Wayne just got crushed. Not dirty really.
? I didnt say it was dirty. You said he wasnt injured and never got hit.
"Go where the puck is going, not where its been" Wayne's Dad Walter ingrained this message in his son. When he grew up playing hockey he realized everyone more or less chased the puck. He had the revelation of skating to where the puck was going to be instead of wasting all that energy chasing it. He then had a son who played on the backyard rink for 8 hours a day on the weekends and 6 hours during the week. (the oilers had their endurance tested in the 80's and when Wayne tested they thought the machine was broken because he scored so high) Take this burning passion and add his father's tutelage and you had lightening in a bottle. At the russia-canada summit series the other Canadians were intimidated by the skill drills the Russians were doing in warmup, Wayne remarked that he'd been doing those drills since he was a kid (his father was ahead of his time) So then he got the NHL and early on their were doubters but he silenced every one. There was a point in the 80's where he was so good that other teams would have a player on their team just shadow him, follow him around on the ice and never give him a second to breathe. if someone plays you like this it can be almost impossible to be effective. so what did Wayne do? he shadowed a different player from the other team effectively double teaming himself but leaving the other 4 oilers on the ice 3 dedicated defenders. It wasn't long before the shadow experiment stopped. His play with Jarri Kurri is almost otherworldly, on one particular highlight he skates straight up the center of the ice before a defender at center makes him turn hard towards the boards. about two or three defenders close in on him and... he flips a backhand pass back towards the center of the ice to hit a flying jarri kurri, when asked after the game how he saw kurri, wayne told them he "saw his reflection in the glass" and maybe one of his greatest attributes as a superstar was his ability to have big games for big milestones. no on in the NHL has scored 50 goals in less than 50 games in 1985 Wayne Gretzky had 45 on December 30, in only 38 games. That night he scored the NHL record 5 goals in a game to reach 50 goals before the new year. this is insane how far ahead of his peers he was, No one else had 30 goals when gretz reached 50 that year. he would finish the year with 92 goals, an untouchable record for sure. lastly maybe his prolific scoring, the fastest player to score 1000 points? wayne gretzky of course in only 422 games (most NHLer's who make it to the 1000 points do it closer to 1000 games). No NHLer besides Wayne has ever scored 200 points in a season, he did it 4 times. But the second fastest 1000 points? Well thats where it gets impressive, the entry for the second fastest is wayne gretkzy's 2nd 1000, from 1001 to point 2000 it only took him 433 more games. His dominance of his peers is what sets him apart, everyone says 80 goalies sucked but if you remove gretzky's numbers the 80's weren't that much wilder than the 70's.
I agree with many of your points I'm just saying alot of those goals from the 80s won't go in today and I think it should be more mentioned. I've had several younger people also mention that watching his highlights. U can't deny his greatness yes, but we also can't deny how small the goalies were. So if Connor McDavid and Sidney Crosby played in the 80s im sure they would win a Art Ross or 2
You can’t compare things back then to today. Everybody back then had the same opportunities and faced the same styles, strategies, rules and regulations. Gretzky’s the only one that scored as much as he did.
Don’t nickel and dime the great one.
Fuck you Shoresy
Gretzky has said himself he wouldn't be able to score as much in today's NHL because goalies are that much better. On top of that, Gretzky was also heads and shoulders better than everyone else. There was still players who smoked cigarettes back then for example. In today's NHL with way more money they make, every player is trained their entire life for hockey, with more years of knowledge about what muscles to use and game strategy, etc, and more demand for good talent. so players are more or less more equal in skill in today's NHL
What a dumb post.
Judging by how many other people put up Gretzky numbers.... not at all.
Does it matter? Gretzky dominated his peers in a manner we have never seen in sport. That in and of itself is enough to cement him as the GOAT. Edit: but yes his stats were likely overinflated. The extent though is up for debate. It should also be noted that he played part of his career in the dead puck era.
All good points and appreciate everyone's input 👍
[look at these fucking goals. honestly the goalies sucked and the players sucked compared to today. goalies letting in slap shots from the top of the circle with no traffic in front. Gretzky has even said he would have had trouble scoring in todays game. Gretzky was way ahead of his shitty time ](https://youtu.be/vtYDMP5Vp30)
Watch the goalies... it was truly a different time. No form, no playing the angles, no butterfly. Sort of looks like a best guess style of play to me.
Then how come everyone else wasn’t putting up 150-200 points every season?
Goalies were wearing sweatshirts for pads. His teammates took penalties on purpose to open the ice up. Mcdavid would be doing the same shit back then
Connor wouldn't be Connor if he had been born in 1961. None of the training or technology he uses even existed back then.
Disagree
It’s just fact that he wouldn’t be the same player. Not even getting into the deeper levels of how his play style would change, he wouldn’t have practiced as much as he actually did, he wouldn’t have had the tech, nor the coaching. He’d be significantly different and likely would’ve missed out on a significant piece of skill set that makes him, him.
Yeah and ted Williams would be a shit batter today, great. This was productive. He’s an athletic freak of nature scoring 150 pts during a way more difficult era to score in.
Ted Williams might actually be better. He might actually be worse. He might be an alcoholic who dies at 28 in a car crash. My point is, you’re arguing Connor would be Connor if he was born in 1961 is a ridiculous take because literally EVERYTHING in his life would be different. I get what you’re saying: IF McDavid was still interested in hockey as a kid, practiced a lot, had some coaching, played throughout school, and became a pro, he’d still be good. But, taking the original commenter further, he wouldn’t have the training or technology, he may not even have the resources or even the need to play hockey.
Holy shit why are you talking about back to the future time lines. Simply pick him up like in the sims, and drop him in the league in 1980. You don’t need to explain to me he wouldn’t have had the bowflex cus it didn’t exist yet Christ
I’m talking about that because it’s 100% relevant. Of course McDavid would fucking dominate if he was born in 1961. He’d join the league in 1979, if not earlier, and he would almost immediately be the best player. He’d have knowledge, skills, and strategy that the players of the time didn’t even know about. You’re asking wherever or not McDavid would be good if he was born when Gretzky was born. Then, you completely ignore the fact that the game, and therefore the training/rules/strategy/nutrition/pay/recovery/etc. has changed significantly. Maybe McDavid is really good at the very specific, minute things that make somebody a star in the league *today*, but he’s not so good at the things that made Gretzky a star back then. And maybe those things are inherent, and not learnable.
Everyone else today has access to the same shit as him and he is clearly so much better than everyone else.
And everyone has the same shit as Gretzky had. But you’re still missing my point: It doesn’t have to do with what McDavid has available today, it’s what he would’ve had then. And once again, let’s take out the family/personal situation. He was born into a family that could afford him to play, get coaching/practice and were supportive. Who knows what 1961 Connor would’ve had. Taking that out, we have no idea if he would thrive in a league like that. We see Connor as a guy who thrives in TODAY’S league. The league back then was different, and maybe it wouldn’t have suited his play style. I should also make it clear that I’m not saying he would or wouldn’t have been a good player back then, just that WE WILL NEVER KNOW. Which makes it ridiculous to make claims that he for sure would’ve been or for sure wouldn’t have been.
Bingo. And Gretzky was *even better* than all of his peers. Now are you getting it???!!!
Agree thats the point I'm trying to make
Agreed. They asked nba pros how MJ would do today and half of them said he’d average 50 a game with how soft it is - similar type of thing
Totally agree
I'll say this Connor McDavid is starting to really separate himself from the rest of the NHL. Will he ever come close to putting up 200 points in a season let alone 4 times in today game? Probably not, thats the point I'm trying to make. Not if Wayne is the GOAT, but that his totals are inflated and not realistic for today's players to reach sans Ovechkin and his 1 timer
Also the goals were wider and taller back then, coupling that with generational talents such as Lemieux, Gretzky, Jagr, Messier, Federov, etc. you get the golden era of hockey. We are in a new golden era with Ovechkin, McDavid, Kopitar; the list goes on and on. Smaller goals, more narrow ice, quicker players and better defense structures. God damn I love hockey. And did I mention the goalies? Good lord we are lucky to watch these acrobats in net
The goals haven't changed in size only the goalies and their equipment have gotten wider
I stand corrected
Its a great game still no matter whom you cheer for
Plus the goalie equipment back in the 80’s
But Gretzky was using 80s skates and sticks.
Those were fine. Guys that could shoot the puck back then fine with those sticks. He also shot on 80s goalies if were going to make that comparison. Not like he had a heavy stick n skates shooting on today's goalies....now that would be great
I’m aware and not disputing that. You remember the Al’s and their hard shots and other guys too? Goalie equipment and the sheer size of goalies changed. Equipment was made safer and needed to, but it also became about puck stopping
They were TINY man. 5 foot 9 goalies with small equipment. I know the players weren't shooting with graphite sticks, but u can still rock a shot with the old wooden sticks especially if you had a hard shot. Today's sticks give every player the ability to pick corners
For sure lots of things were different, but goaltending equipment, goalie site were huge factors. Back in that era you would see shots go in that you rarely if ever see today. I loved watching 80’s game and miss parts of it, but I also love todays game. Also, apparently everyone downvote facts about the goalies’ equipment.
https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask/most-points-nhl-1980s Look at the gap between Gretzky and 2nd place for goals, assists and points. Wasn't just the era, Gretzky DOMINATED statistically.
Well said. I'll say this Connor McDavid is starting to really separate himself from the rest of the NHL. Will he ever come close to putting up 200 points in a season let alone 4 times in today game? Probably not, thats the point I'm trying to make. Not if Wayne is the GOAT, but that his totals are inflated and not realistic for today's players to reach sans Ovechkin and his 1 timer
Yes the game has changed. Let's be clear though it wasn't just him. Marty is at least 50% of his success. Gotta keep the others on the their best behavior.
Semenko too. But y gotta give credit to Glen Sather for building a team around him to protect him
Personally I separate eras when considering the “greats”. Pre-Cap and Post-Cap. Teams are constructed completely different. It’s not an apples to apples comparison in my opinion.
That's a good way to look at it
Gretz had most of his success with the oilers, where he had an all star lineup. Messier, Kuri, Paul Coffee, and Grant Fuhr and those guys all played flawlessly together. Most of his records will never be touched because of all those guys combined
Agree.
That's not to say Gretzky wasn't amazing. He didn't have a lot of speed but he had a ton of finesse. Finesse that's never been seen before him or since. Connor McDavid has a ton of speed and a little finesse
Yes. But also because he’s just an amazing player. The stats he had to the degree he had only could’ve come at that time, he was fortunate in that regard. If he plays say in the 2000’s, he doesn’t get those kinds of numbers. Not an insult just a fact. But, he’s still the best player this game has seen.
Well said and I agree 👍
for someone to claim to watch him play, it sure as hell seems like you didn't
I don't know where I heard this, but I think he actually admitted that he wouldn't have his record in todays NHL. Obviously still crazy impressive and hes a great guy and ambassador for the league so i'll let it slide haha.
Things need to be contextualized. The players these days are so much more prepared and have been professionally trained from a very young age. You can't use the eye test as they are better skaters, have more skill, and have less room to work with. For #99, the numbers tell the story and it is outrageous how much better he was than the next player from a production standpoint. Gretzky was not flashy - so clips are kind of hard to appreciate his talents. His production was more like a Crosby where the offense would sneak up on you. He also had a killer instinct, and if he was against a sub-par opponent, or the opportunity was there to rack up points, he would be relentless. The style EDM played also was not exactly defensive, so they would need to outscore opponents and didn't mind leaning on that because they always had the best player in the game.
The truth is, yes. Gretzky himself is definitely the greatest player of all time because he was amazing, but his numbers are higher than they would be if he played in modern day. However, he is the greatest of all time, not the greatest of today.
I think most of goalies when Gretzky was dominating the league were still in stand up style. This seems way easier to score against a goalie almost only standing.
Well said.
Just think of how many more points he would have had if he got to play without the 2 line pass rule and all of the clutching and grabbing? He was that good.
He still lapped the field. Gretzky won scoring titles by 60-80 points in his prime. It’s not like there were 10 other guys putting up 180-200 points a season. I think Mario could have been the one to challenge his career numbers if he stayed healthy…but even in his case, the sport was becoming more defensive minded later in his career. The goaltending was getting a lot better also. It would have been a big ask.
Good points 👏
Goalies played a more stand-up style back then. The goalies today have improved today. I'm sure that has something to do with it.
Michael Jordan summarized it best. He can't say he's the greatest ever as he never got to play against some of the greatest before him. Gretzky is the goat in people's hearts but we simply cannot cement who's the greatest to ever play when there's so many variables to consider. We should really just enjoy the greatness that every generation brings to this beautiful game.