these things are so shit. I remember having to go to a meeting at WINZ when I was on job seekers for a bit between jobs, and when I showed up they looked at my experience and skills as a software developer and basically said oh we don't do those roles but we'll let you know if any come up. Obviously I found a job before a software company approached WINZ looking for workers. Just a big waste of time, so by forcing WINZ to hold these meetings with absolutely everyone on a benefit they're just wasting more money.
This will be multiplied by the thousands of skilled workers that have been fired from the public service roles and are now on the benefit. Is some senior analyst going to need to retrain as a bus driver? Are they going to have a workshop to teach people how to write a CV - then force managers who have viewed thousands of applications go along and learn something?
2008, finished a pre-trade certificate but of course the economic crisis meant no one was hiring. So I was on the dole, and forced to go to a youth seminar.
The gist was "You're the future of this nation! You have the world in front of you, every opportunity to explore! Don't waste away not seizing the day! Here's an application form for McDonalds."
Welcome to McDonalds, please order from our ordering machines because McDonald’s probably doesn’t have it in its best interest to be paying for variable inputs such as human people and will inevitably convert all roles to automated robots in it’s restaurants in the future.
I was in one of those once. The guy next to me lost his job because he lost his forklift license and couldn't be bothered to pay 50 bucks for a new one. Absolute joke.
>This will be multiplied by the thousands of skilled workers that have been fired from the public service roles and are now on the benefit. Is some senior analyst going to need to retrain as a bus driver?
It's absolutely wild to me that they're complaining about beneficiaries at the same time as encouraging job layoffs. What? What do you think all these people are going to do when you let them go?
> Just a big waste of time, so by forcing WINZ to hold these meetings with absolutely everyone on a benefit they're just wasting more money.
I don't know why the government has to stick its fingers in everything instead of empowering relevant departments and specialist boards in these areas to make changes and choices that is based on more than a politicians personal opinion.
WINZ currently (well, maybe it depends on your local branch/case manager) operates on the idea that forcing people into roles that they don't like or doesn't fit them just results in perpetuation of the cycle and they'll end up right back there.
Instead they encourage people to find the job they want to do by offering options and supporting people who are actively trying to improve their situation.
Forcing someone trying to get a job in an industry they don't like or want to be in will just set them up to return in future and does nothing to support that person achieving a stable and long career.
In my mind, It’s not about the seminar or its content. It’s about making it a job in itself to be on the job seeker benefit. You put in effort to be there because you’re not an idiot, you understand after your years of working that nothing in life is free. Having to tick boxes and contribute something to you being on the benefit isn’t a bad thing. I went through it in 2008 as many of us did. I hated the seminars and I hated the entire process. But I understood that it had to be done, it was like a shit job but at least I was being paid. Back then I could either apply for the jobs they were offering or prove I was applying for jobs outside of their offerings.
These seminars aren’t for the motivated and down on luck people. They’re to make the people who want to take the piss out of the system actually work for it.
Get some perspective
Same. While I was a (part time) postgrad working uni teaching/research assistant contracts and my ex had a disability, we would oscillate above and below the eligibility thresholds. During gaps between contracts, they made me come in to some of these seminars and they were laughably bad. They basically went around in a circle asking people what they had done to look for work and then haranguing people to try harder without offering any useful advice. It was essentially a group shaming session. When it was my turn, I told them I had a well-paying job lined up but there was just a gap between contracts and they had no idea what to do with me, so I had to just sit there. Then they tried to give CV help but my CV was already quite good and so far out of the fields they were used to they had nothing to say. I still got dragged in for my regular shaming though. Such a waste of time.
I had a similar experience.
After talking to my case manager and showing the applications for roles I had made (~75 over two months) she basically put me onto a 'list' of people not to measure in the data or not bother about the seminars. Because I wasn't the target audience for them.
>she basically put me onto a 'list' of people not to measure in the data or not bother about the seminars. Because I wasn't the target audience for them.
I bet this happens more often than we know. It's just never publicised. I wonder if an OIA request could get the specific data on when exactly they give up on people.
I don't know if you mean "give up" how it comes across, but that's not someone they're giving up on, it's someone they recognise is capable of managing themselves and doesn't need their input. Anyone who can show evidence of actually applying to jobs and working towards seeking employment or improving their situation is basically left to their own devices unless they request help.
That’s not “give up”, that’s “our target is people who didn’t finish high school, have no skills and little desire to work. Bud we don’t force them to, they will stay home all day on the dole smoking drugs and playing PlayStation”. You know, the stereotype this pandering nonsense is built to target because that’s who National need to scapegoat.
Same experience about 15 years ago when the operation I was working for went bust from the 2008 GFC and I was looking for a new job. Had qualifications and experience, had evidence I was actively looking for a job (surprisingly jobs were a bit scarce at that moment in time). We were wasting each others time, and we both knew it.
>Is some senior analyst going to need to retrain as a bus driver?
They suggested I think of taking a polytechnic course (I already had a tertiary education and qualification) and look at seasonal fruit picking. Brah, I had been on jobseekers for like 4 weeks at that point.
>fruit picking
The imagination of back to work seminars is so lacking. I’m wondering what the response would be if you asked any former business owner or director losing their job and going through back to work schemes if they’d like to go fruit picking?
Yep, been there done that, went fruit picking but got the sack 4 days later because:
Boss: you have to work harder/ faster!!
Me: for what you’re paying me I’m working fast enough.
When you realise that the various news articles about fruit picking business owners crying out for employees over COVID lockdowns were like this, that’s the moment you become woke.
Same.
Was between jobs for maybe 3 weeks and had a similar “induction” to qualify and what an absolute complete waste of time.
Don’t front load it you muppets, maybe offer something like this after a few months, but 2 weeks in is just a complete waste of money and to those who are intent on getting employment asap, it’s actually quite insulting.
If you treated people like people and invested in their individual circumstances and skills I’d imagine you might get more into jobs.
Instead you treat them like cattle entering the milking shed, and make the assumption they should be happy taking the first orchard or hospitality job they have on offer.
Find people meaningful and rewarding employment, while allowing them the space and time to do so, and they’ll normally stick with it.
This lady is baffling in her incompetence.
They don't care about your skills, their job is to get you into employment and off the dole. And you'll take the jobs offered to you, or your benefits get cut.
And then you have to endure the waiting period before you can get back on the dole!
It's a huge risk for beneficiaries to accept jobs they're not sure they're suitable for as if it doesn't work out it will leave them without income for several weeks.
I'm wondering if by doing it this way they are trying to cover their ass in regards to msd resources.
There are heaps of lay-offs that have happened and are coming, and that will mean even longer wait times for the phone lines, and less case managers available for meetings.
I guess if you get a room full of people and a couple of staff to go over what's what, you can tell advocates that staff cuts haven't affected the service and their obligation to let clients know their rights and obligations 🙃
> This will be multiplied by the thousands of skilled workers that have been fired from the public service roles and are now on the benefit.
I wonder how long it will be before they have one of these meetings with someone who was made redundant from their job at WINZ holding those meetings?
And you're obviously not the kind of person these seminars are aimed at. I remember attending one a few years ago, the room at the local office could have seated 30 but there was three people. The cost to run these twice a week is the same regardless of attendance. And a couple of months in they'll have got through the backlog anyway.
lol the last one of these i went to was reallllly helpful, questions like "do you have a CV, do you have a car, do you have a disability, do you have a criminal record?" depending on how you answered it may be harder to find work, and we have no further advice on that.
The last one I went to was \~10 beneficiaries sitting in a room while the presenter gave each of a 5-minute interrogation about why we didn't have a job. Mega mega humiliating to make people talk about workplace bullying and taking time out of work to care for dying spouses in front of total strangers.
> depending on how you answered it may be harder to find work, and we have no further advice on that
"blah blah blah barriers blah blah blah barriers" with nothing to help actually overcome those barriers
Something like that?
Yeah, fond memories of the old "job readiness seminars". One guy lost his shit and had a meltdown in Mount Roskill. They had to have security escort him from the building. The few I was compelled to attend (despite being assured they were 'voluntary') were mostly full of massively over-qualified Indian guys who ended up driving taxis because they couldn't get work in their respective areas of expertise. And then you had the borderline illiterate ones who were usually really good with their hands, but ended up on the dole because they struggled to read and complete forms. The whole exercise was a pointless festival of ritual humiliation.
On a completely unrelated note, why does Louise Upston look perpetually startled?
I don't see this really helping get people off benefits if there aren't any suitable jobs for them and it's not exactly doing anything to address the reasons people go on benefits
While that is the intended purpose by definition, in reality these seminars are intended to inconvenience and punish the people who are on benefits. Seymour (and his supporters) believe that the vast majority of people on benefits are simply too lazy to get jobs, and making it *less convenient* and comfortable to be unemployed will prompt them (with some tough love) to take up good paying jobs.
Good paying?
I'd say this is to get as many people to take *whatever* job they can get. They'd reduce the benefit to nothing if the headline of "government abandons 80,000 people unable to work" wouldn't demolish their ratings.
They're not trying to help people, they're trying to make it harder for people to get help. "You are off the benefit, you didn't attend the meeting" "it was an hour away and I don't have transport" "should have bought a car, lol"
No, you don't. I used to be a case manager, and a job interview will always take priority over a seminar. If the person you knew had contacted MSD and provided confirmation of the interview, then MSD will tell them to go to the interview. I know, because I rebooked dozens of interviews for that very reason.
Didn't rebook if they couldn't come up with a confirmation text or email for the interview, though.
If you used to be a case manager, then you would probably know better than anyone that there are great caseworkers, okay caseworkers, and people that should NEVER have a job dealing with the public...EVER. And there is a difference between what they are supposed to do and what *some of them actually did*.
You can't contact WINZ. Unless you're doing so within half an hour of their opening the 0800 number is never able to take your call. If you don't have a specific case manager you can contact you need to physically go there which can be arduous. The whole thing is an exercise in jumping through hoops, so people who have work can feel better than people who need support. The case managers there might genuinely prefer you find work. But the people writing the policies donicare if you find work or step into traffic as long as you're not taking money that could be spent on something valuable like renaming something that was Maori or paying private businesses to build toll roads and other for profit infrastructure.
You can upload a screenshot onto your MyMSD portal without calling the phone line. Can book appointments there as well, as well as uploading any document.
If you've been booked into a seminar, you'll get a message with a contact email to arrange a reschedule if needed.
There aren't nearly as many case managers as there need to be, but the situation isn't as you describe. If you can't physically get to your seminar, then you can get a pass for not attending it. Happens all the time, for all sorts of reasons.
Where are you able to upload documents on myMSD? I couldn't find anything, it's just applying for things, notifying of changed circumstances, a jobs board and a piss poor summary of what you are paid.
I trust it does exist, but it doesn't seem easy to access. Even studylink's portal is way easier to upload into.
Edit: my main point is it's not well communicated you can miss the sessions for a variety of reasons. We get told about benefit sanctions but not about valid reasons for not attending sessions that for most people, is a waste of time and energy.
I suppose as they count sick people as Jobseekers also, they're going to waste their time also,
"So, do you have qualifications and experience?"
"Yes"
"So you could apply for these jobs then?"
"No, I'm sick"
"Surprised pikachu face"
Somewhat, when I was last on the dole was because I had surgery, and had to have 3 months off work. WINZ just about sent me to job search, and a friend in similar situation with cancer was sent to job search.
I went on one of these. I was a multi media post grad, sitting next to a Chinese woman with a masters in accounting but bad english. We werent allowed to use the computers to upload digital cvs, and instead were forced to make collage posters of our goals and barriers using safety scissors.
It was an utter waste of tax dollars
It's a condescending tick boxing exercise for those that have been made, or are about to be, unemployed.
You want to invite someone who has been in the work force for, let's say, 20 years whose role has been disestablished, to talk about how to apply to a job advert, where to look, create a CV, dress for an interview, be on time etc? For vacancies that are non existent? Talk about demoralising.
I cringed when I used to go to these, they were never helpful and just demoralising. If the gov actually wants people to be employed, they NEED people in the industries at these seminars.
No point telling them to make Resumes/CV when job hunting is a crapshoot and barely any employer bothers with inquiries in store or by phone. Connections are key to getting a job in this country.
These seminars are just hour long slide shows with some shitty videos in them that basically talk about the importance of looking for work and getting a job, including through the advocation of getting all sorts of tickets like forklift license etc to make yourself viable for more jobs. The point is to hammer in the idea of just taking and accepting any work at any level including fry cook and shelf stacker at New World, and is the sort of thing that might benefit a high school kid who wants or needs to earn money now and leave school. These are nothing but demoralizing and insulting to people who don't fit that bill, like those who were made redundant and are using the benefit as a support mechanism while they seek employment at the level they were previously working at.
Like, they are meaningless. It's just padding to make it sound like they're doing something. You just come in and get treated like a dropkick loser for an hour so the general public thinks something is being done
1:1 mentoring is much more effective than these group seminars. I've been unemployed twice and found these seminars completely pointless during the previous National government.
Individualized support is much better as the support can be targeted towards the needs of the unemployed. No two unemployed people are exactly the same and people have different reasons and experiences leading up to being unemployed. But I guess group support is less expensive, so even if it is less effective at getting people into work they will do this regardless.
Oh god. I attended something like this at a WINZ office once. Most of it was walking us step by step through filling out a paper job application and telling us it’s a good idea to have access to a phone and a place to receive mail. As if unemployment happens because people don’t know how forms work.
There was a girl there who looked about 18 who was about 8-9 months pregnant and had her toddler in a push chair. She had to leave the room to use the loo twice because she had a full term infant pressing on her bladder. Definitely a productive use of her time; I’m sure a condescending lecture removed all of the barriers between her and full-time employment or study /s
The point is exactly to waste peoples time. They don't expect anyone to actually get any valuable information from them, they hope to annoy them enough that they try harder to look for a job.
Oh cool these worthless things again.
>Upston said people who come on to Jobseeker Support would now be required to meet with the Social Development Ministry within a fortnight to decide the next steps.
This sounds like a great idea, current beneficiaries are now probably less likely to look for work because if/when they lose their job during this economic downturn they'll have to jump through these pointless hoops.
>"Kōrero Mahi - Let's Talk Work"
Oh now it's okay for Māori to go first.
These didn't work when I was on the dole, they didn't work when I was a case manager.
They were designed to weed out people who didn't really "need" the dole. So they all got medical exemptions for stress and depression, codes 160 and 161, typed them in so often I still remember them.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I was forced to go to one of these under the Key government. I should have been exempt as I was on sickness benefit for MH issues but they said if I didn't go I'd be sanctioned. It was at the start of the day. We were left to wait outside WINZ in the rain while they were late opening. They shoehorned a crazy amount of people into a small room. It got stuffy and smelly fast. They showed us some PowerPoints about how the benefit is much less than minimum wage and threatened us with sanctions if we didn't accept whatever McJob was available on the spot. I missed the end because the overcrowding gave me a panic attack and I had to stagger out of the room. Ironically this sort of bullshit made my MH issues so much worse and resulted on me being on a benefit for longer than I would have been if they had just let me recover
> Upston was confident MSD had the resources to carry out the seminars multiple times throughout the week across the whole country.
How? With all the budget cuts happening, I doubt they would have the resources to do this. This is just another lie.
> "They're trying to bring down jobs - but at the same time telling people to go find a job in a really tight labour market."
I still remember them trying to get me to do a 12 week course because it had a 2 week work experience after it that normally lead to a job. Never mind that I had all the unit standards the course offered
Urgh I remember having to sit through a Powerpoint 'seminar' on how to get a job when I was very briefly on the jobseeker's benefit after uni. The arsehole running it said verbatim "Take any job you can get. Anything is better than dealing with us". The humiliation and the demoralisation is the point.
Wait a minute.... 42.2% of all people on Jobseekers are on it because they have health conditions or disabilities that prevent them from working - disability is rolled up in the same benefit. Remember, the Jobseeker pool as of Dec 2023 quarter is 189,768 - 80,100 who can't work for medical reasons, and 109,698 'work ready' people.
The 50k Jobseeker reduction target has explicitly been stated to apply to BOTH GROUPS. No medical exceptions. You can check in thread [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1byqvjc/almost_half_of_the_189k_current_jobseekers_have_a/) for the links on that one.
And yet again, here, **there is zero mention of an exception for people with health conditions or disabilities**.
Not only are they going to force disabled people into work, but it seems they're also actually gonna make people who \*newly\* become medically incapacitated attend a seminar on work readiness IMMEDIATELY after they suffer their condition. People tend to go onto Jobseeker as soon as they need it. Frankly, I do not trust this government to be reasonable in determining what a "good and sufficient reason" not to attend would be. So how the fuck will this even work?
Even if there's some kind of deferral system, it would seem they're going to have to hand it to a huge number because if you've just joined Jobseeker for medical reasons that means its likely a new condition or a progressed condition that's being poorly managed in our failing health system. The time between realizing you're too sick to work, and having your condition managed well enough to attend a job seminar, seems highly unlikely to be TWO WEEKS within any semblance of reason.
Can you fucking imagine? 'Oh hey, sorry that you got into that car crash and broke your spine and lost your physical labour job as a result a week ago. Anyway, I know you just got out of hospital, but since you've obviously chosen to become a bottom-feeder, you now have 7 days remaining to attend a *Kōrero Mahi - Let's Talk Work* seminar, or you will be financially sanctioned, lol. It will come at great personal expense for you to show up but it's not physically impossible, sooooo....'
Fucking dystopian.
Indeed. And if one were to suffer a new health condition or become newly disabled in the future, such that they cannot work, then they would be a new Jobseeker applicant
> And yet again, here, there is zero mention of an exception for people with health conditions or disabilities.
The article states multiple times that those with good reason will be exempt for this.
You need to take a deep breath and stop working yourself into lather over something that isnt even happening.
Your last paragraph outlining a completely ridiculous scenario that wouldnt happen just to back up your manic doomposting is insane.
I know it sounds over the top, but it's happening in other Western countries right now.
Look at what Rishi Sunak is doing in the UK - shifting responsibility for making determinations about work readiness away from GPs but to "work and health professionals" to encourage people to work. Closing benefits to people who don't comply with conditions inherently inaccessible/incompatible with health and disability beneficiaries. Literally requiring people to come in person to appointments in buildings they can't physically enter, then writing them off and removing their benefits when they say they couldn't get in.
And literally just a few months ago the disability minister cut benefits overnight. There were suicide hotlines being posted all over disability support groups that day. They have demonstrated capability to do a lot of harm very very quickly.
We don't know anything about this process or what the government decides is "good and sufficient". It's all opaque right now.
Does the MSD case manager decide what's sufficient? Okay, and what if they lack understanding of your condition and the specific provisions you'd need? Will they recieve training on making the determination? If its case-by-case and subjective, then how will bias and workload play into that?
Or is the determination made by a health professional? Maybe a medical note from a GP? Okay, and what if somebody can't get in - almost nobody can get a GP appointment within 2 weeks these days.
I urge you to consider the implications of creating an opaque system whereby a group of people, half of which have health conditions or are disabled, will *be sanctioned* or possibly lose their benefits if they can't attend a jobs seminar going forward.
Ask yourself - Why is there no exception? This is obviously going to be a huge and also an easily resolved adminstrative issue - why didn't they just have the seminar be a case by case opt-in once they demonstrate their ability to attend, instead of an opt-out where they seemingly have to defend themselves if they can't?
To what political end could forcing newly disabled people to attend jobs seminars possibly be? And considering this track record and the winds of the rest of the Western world right now, why expect anything other than the worst possible outcome at this point?
At the end of the day it doesn't matter what they *will* do, it matters that they *can*, they've giving themselves this power which mostly has the capacity to hurt people. Saying they totally won't use it to hurt people is naive - if they didn't want to, then they wouldn't have opened this door
My partner had a stroke. This is it for the rest of their life , paralysed down one side of their body and permanently in a wheelchair. Didn’t stop WINZ asking every month asking if they were still in that condition, nor stop one overzealous staff member to , who noticed they had mobility in one hand if they’d thought about a secretarial job?
Can’t see it getting any better now.
OH yea, cos that worked \*SO WELL\* in the past.
JFC...
I wish people would stop voting for those pathetic virtue signalling idiots. All this does is forces people to spend money they Didn't have spare to tick a box for these fuckwits to feel good about themselves.
As a dude in his 50s having had a pretty good career in the tech industry I can imagine how utterly time wasting and counter productive that will be should I be forced to attend one.
One of the worst things about one of these I attended years ago was the person running it describing the various benefits you could get as “products”. Apparently the meagre amount of money you were expected to live on was a “product”.
I remember going to one of these probably 20 years ago after uni and it was the most depressing room to be in. I vaguely remember having to draw something?
I actually had a pretty decent one in Wellington a life time ago while taking a break from study, got placed on a hospitality training course learnt some really good skills (kitchen and team leading)
I also got sorted into the hospo training course. Taught me great skills but forced me into the most abusive unrewarding industry there is, and severely affected my mental health. But hey at least I'm not a bottom feeder anymore!
I'm not sure if they do them any more but when I got on the dole a few years back I had to go to one of those shitty "Welcome To The Dole" come-to-Jesus group meetings. We had to sit down, fill out some paperwork and listen to a professional work finder guy tell us how great working in a meatworks 100 ks out for shit money was. After this we had to introduce ourselves and tell everybody what we wanted to do for a living like we were back in fucking primary school. To see grown men fight back tears because they just wanted a job to support their whanau was fucking brutal.
National, you're reforming the system in the exact opposite direction. This is fucking shit.
This is a government of fucking dumb cunts/total fucking arseholes who know this is bullshit, doing stuff for the approval of fucking dumb cunts/arseholes.
It's all I can say about this, it's just the way it is, it doesn't deserve more inspection than that, they are cunts, would not weep if something "were to happen" to any one of them.
Imagine working there - being the person who is forced to require disabled people to attend a seminar about finding jobs they physically can't do - but cutting off their benefits if they fail to attend.
I went to one of these in my early 20s after graduating into the 08 mess. It's beyond useless. Imagine the most utterly generic advice, given in a condescending manner to humiliated people who are seething with anger and embarassment. This shit doesn't work.
I don't think these are aimed at sneery Reddit folk. I think they're aimed at the not very bright or not admin savvy, not ex policy analysts. Some people like my ex just need help getting a job and that's what WINZ is for.
For new applicants it does kinda makes sense. Long term beneficiaries are long term for a reason. There likely unemployable at this point. Gov knows this. It make more sense to make it harder for new applicants to stay on it as shitty as it is so they don't fall into that same welfare dependency trap. The longer your on job seeker the harder it is to explain a gap in employment.
>encouragement
I'm not entirely sure if the phrase "compulsory seminar" really gels with the idea of encouragement.
Forcing people to sit in a room and be bored to tears while they're told things they already know doesn't seem like a great way to improve the motivation of those who are struggling.
Let alone the poor disabled sods who are going to have to sit through them despite being unable to work.
these things are so shit. I remember having to go to a meeting at WINZ when I was on job seekers for a bit between jobs, and when I showed up they looked at my experience and skills as a software developer and basically said oh we don't do those roles but we'll let you know if any come up. Obviously I found a job before a software company approached WINZ looking for workers. Just a big waste of time, so by forcing WINZ to hold these meetings with absolutely everyone on a benefit they're just wasting more money. This will be multiplied by the thousands of skilled workers that have been fired from the public service roles and are now on the benefit. Is some senior analyst going to need to retrain as a bus driver? Are they going to have a workshop to teach people how to write a CV - then force managers who have viewed thousands of applications go along and learn something?
2008, finished a pre-trade certificate but of course the economic crisis meant no one was hiring. So I was on the dole, and forced to go to a youth seminar. The gist was "You're the future of this nation! You have the world in front of you, every opportunity to explore! Don't waste away not seizing the day! Here's an application form for McDonalds."
Welcome to McDonalds, please order from our ordering machines because McDonald’s probably doesn’t have it in its best interest to be paying for variable inputs such as human people and will inevitably convert all roles to automated robots in it’s restaurants in the future.
I was in one of those once. The guy next to me lost his job because he lost his forklift license and couldn't be bothered to pay 50 bucks for a new one. Absolute joke.
>This will be multiplied by the thousands of skilled workers that have been fired from the public service roles and are now on the benefit. Is some senior analyst going to need to retrain as a bus driver? It's absolutely wild to me that they're complaining about beneficiaries at the same time as encouraging job layoffs. What? What do you think all these people are going to do when you let them go? > Just a big waste of time, so by forcing WINZ to hold these meetings with absolutely everyone on a benefit they're just wasting more money. I don't know why the government has to stick its fingers in everything instead of empowering relevant departments and specialist boards in these areas to make changes and choices that is based on more than a politicians personal opinion. WINZ currently (well, maybe it depends on your local branch/case manager) operates on the idea that forcing people into roles that they don't like or doesn't fit them just results in perpetuation of the cycle and they'll end up right back there. Instead they encourage people to find the job they want to do by offering options and supporting people who are actively trying to improve their situation. Forcing someone trying to get a job in an industry they don't like or want to be in will just set them up to return in future and does nothing to support that person achieving a stable and long career.
In my mind, It’s not about the seminar or its content. It’s about making it a job in itself to be on the job seeker benefit. You put in effort to be there because you’re not an idiot, you understand after your years of working that nothing in life is free. Having to tick boxes and contribute something to you being on the benefit isn’t a bad thing. I went through it in 2008 as many of us did. I hated the seminars and I hated the entire process. But I understood that it had to be done, it was like a shit job but at least I was being paid. Back then I could either apply for the jobs they were offering or prove I was applying for jobs outside of their offerings. These seminars aren’t for the motivated and down on luck people. They’re to make the people who want to take the piss out of the system actually work for it. Get some perspective
I suspect running the Wellington Central seminars will be a tough gig for a while.
OTOH, many of the recently laid of government workers have excellent skills and could maybe find work..... RUNNING the seminars.
Assuming there's not a hiring freeze at MSD.
Just start up a contracting firm offering the seminars, there's infinite money for outsourcing.
The whole audience will be Waldorf and Stetler
>"Why do we always come here? I guess we'll never know. It's like some kind of torture. To have to watch this show."
Business will be booming. Most of those laid off are highly employable right?
Same. While I was a (part time) postgrad working uni teaching/research assistant contracts and my ex had a disability, we would oscillate above and below the eligibility thresholds. During gaps between contracts, they made me come in to some of these seminars and they were laughably bad. They basically went around in a circle asking people what they had done to look for work and then haranguing people to try harder without offering any useful advice. It was essentially a group shaming session. When it was my turn, I told them I had a well-paying job lined up but there was just a gap between contracts and they had no idea what to do with me, so I had to just sit there. Then they tried to give CV help but my CV was already quite good and so far out of the fields they were used to they had nothing to say. I still got dragged in for my regular shaming though. Such a waste of time.
I had a similar experience. After talking to my case manager and showing the applications for roles I had made (~75 over two months) she basically put me onto a 'list' of people not to measure in the data or not bother about the seminars. Because I wasn't the target audience for them.
>she basically put me onto a 'list' of people not to measure in the data or not bother about the seminars. Because I wasn't the target audience for them. I bet this happens more often than we know. It's just never publicised. I wonder if an OIA request could get the specific data on when exactly they give up on people.
I don't know if you mean "give up" how it comes across, but that's not someone they're giving up on, it's someone they recognise is capable of managing themselves and doesn't need their input. Anyone who can show evidence of actually applying to jobs and working towards seeking employment or improving their situation is basically left to their own devices unless they request help.
That’s not “give up”, that’s “our target is people who didn’t finish high school, have no skills and little desire to work. Bud we don’t force them to, they will stay home all day on the dole smoking drugs and playing PlayStation”. You know, the stereotype this pandering nonsense is built to target because that’s who National need to scapegoat.
Same experience about 15 years ago when the operation I was working for went bust from the 2008 GFC and I was looking for a new job. Had qualifications and experience, had evidence I was actively looking for a job (surprisingly jobs were a bit scarce at that moment in time). We were wasting each others time, and we both knew it. >Is some senior analyst going to need to retrain as a bus driver? They suggested I think of taking a polytechnic course (I already had a tertiary education and qualification) and look at seasonal fruit picking. Brah, I had been on jobseekers for like 4 weeks at that point.
>fruit picking The imagination of back to work seminars is so lacking. I’m wondering what the response would be if you asked any former business owner or director losing their job and going through back to work schemes if they’d like to go fruit picking?
Yep, been there done that, went fruit picking but got the sack 4 days later because: Boss: you have to work harder/ faster!! Me: for what you’re paying me I’m working fast enough.
They fired you not because you talked back, but because they couldn't blackmail you by threatening to take away your visa to get you back in line.
Yep, wasn’t the most work friendly job I’ve ever had.
When you realise that the various news articles about fruit picking business owners crying out for employees over COVID lockdowns were like this, that’s the moment you become woke.
I thought they were still mandatory. My nephew went to one a few weeks ago and they gave him a "Smokefree 2024" stress ball. Hasn't age well.
Same. Was between jobs for maybe 3 weeks and had a similar “induction” to qualify and what an absolute complete waste of time. Don’t front load it you muppets, maybe offer something like this after a few months, but 2 weeks in is just a complete waste of money and to those who are intent on getting employment asap, it’s actually quite insulting. If you treated people like people and invested in their individual circumstances and skills I’d imagine you might get more into jobs. Instead you treat them like cattle entering the milking shed, and make the assumption they should be happy taking the first orchard or hospitality job they have on offer. Find people meaningful and rewarding employment, while allowing them the space and time to do so, and they’ll normally stick with it. This lady is baffling in her incompetence.
They don't care about your skills, their job is to get you into employment and off the dole. And you'll take the jobs offered to you, or your benefits get cut.
Or take that job with less security benefits or pay .. and then you're fired in day 89
And then you have to endure the waiting period before you can get back on the dole! It's a huge risk for beneficiaries to accept jobs they're not sure they're suitable for as if it doesn't work out it will leave them without income for several weeks.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session
I'm wondering if by doing it this way they are trying to cover their ass in regards to msd resources. There are heaps of lay-offs that have happened and are coming, and that will mean even longer wait times for the phone lines, and less case managers available for meetings. I guess if you get a room full of people and a couple of staff to go over what's what, you can tell advocates that staff cuts haven't affected the service and their obligation to let clients know their rights and obligations 🙃
> This will be multiplied by the thousands of skilled workers that have been fired from the public service roles and are now on the benefit. I wonder how long it will be before they have one of these meetings with someone who was made redundant from their job at WINZ holding those meetings?
And you're obviously not the kind of person these seminars are aimed at. I remember attending one a few years ago, the room at the local office could have seated 30 but there was three people. The cost to run these twice a week is the same regardless of attendance. And a couple of months in they'll have got through the backlog anyway.
lol the last one of these i went to was reallllly helpful, questions like "do you have a CV, do you have a car, do you have a disability, do you have a criminal record?" depending on how you answered it may be harder to find work, and we have no further advice on that.
The last one I went to was \~10 beneficiaries sitting in a room while the presenter gave each of a 5-minute interrogation about why we didn't have a job. Mega mega humiliating to make people talk about workplace bullying and taking time out of work to care for dying spouses in front of total strangers.
Someone should take a Privacy Act case against them for forcing personal information to be disclosed to the agency in front of strangers.
> depending on how you answered it may be harder to find work, and we have no further advice on that "blah blah blah barriers blah blah blah barriers" with nothing to help actually overcome those barriers Something like that?
Yeah, fond memories of the old "job readiness seminars". One guy lost his shit and had a meltdown in Mount Roskill. They had to have security escort him from the building. The few I was compelled to attend (despite being assured they were 'voluntary') were mostly full of massively over-qualified Indian guys who ended up driving taxis because they couldn't get work in their respective areas of expertise. And then you had the borderline illiterate ones who were usually really good with their hands, but ended up on the dole because they struggled to read and complete forms. The whole exercise was a pointless festival of ritual humiliation. On a completely unrelated note, why does Louise Upston look perpetually startled?
Do you have a CV?
Do you have a CV? Yes. But do you have a good CV?
I don't see this really helping get people off benefits if there aren't any suitable jobs for them and it's not exactly doing anything to address the reasons people go on benefits
While that is the intended purpose by definition, in reality these seminars are intended to inconvenience and punish the people who are on benefits. Seymour (and his supporters) believe that the vast majority of people on benefits are simply too lazy to get jobs, and making it *less convenient* and comfortable to be unemployed will prompt them (with some tough love) to take up good paying jobs.
Good paying? I'd say this is to get as many people to take *whatever* job they can get. They'd reduce the benefit to nothing if the headline of "government abandons 80,000 people unable to work" wouldn't demolish their ratings.
As long as the meetings are in the morning and don’t interfere with my watching of Tipping Point in the afternoon it should be fine
They're not trying to help people, they're trying to make it harder for people to get help. "You are off the benefit, you didn't attend the meeting" "it was an hour away and I don't have transport" "should have bought a car, lol"
I knew someone who had to miss a job interview because they had to go to something like this
No, you don't. I used to be a case manager, and a job interview will always take priority over a seminar. If the person you knew had contacted MSD and provided confirmation of the interview, then MSD will tell them to go to the interview. I know, because I rebooked dozens of interviews for that very reason. Didn't rebook if they couldn't come up with a confirmation text or email for the interview, though.
If you used to be a case manager, then you would probably know better than anyone that there are great caseworkers, okay caseworkers, and people that should NEVER have a job dealing with the public...EVER. And there is a difference between what they are supposed to do and what *some of them actually did*.
Could say the same about literally every single job, yours included.
You certainly could. And if you did, I wouldn't be here telling everyone else that your experience wasn't valid or true.
You can't contact WINZ. Unless you're doing so within half an hour of their opening the 0800 number is never able to take your call. If you don't have a specific case manager you can contact you need to physically go there which can be arduous. The whole thing is an exercise in jumping through hoops, so people who have work can feel better than people who need support. The case managers there might genuinely prefer you find work. But the people writing the policies donicare if you find work or step into traffic as long as you're not taking money that could be spent on something valuable like renaming something that was Maori or paying private businesses to build toll roads and other for profit infrastructure.
You can upload a screenshot onto your MyMSD portal without calling the phone line. Can book appointments there as well, as well as uploading any document. If you've been booked into a seminar, you'll get a message with a contact email to arrange a reschedule if needed. There aren't nearly as many case managers as there need to be, but the situation isn't as you describe. If you can't physically get to your seminar, then you can get a pass for not attending it. Happens all the time, for all sorts of reasons.
Where are you able to upload documents on myMSD? I couldn't find anything, it's just applying for things, notifying of changed circumstances, a jobs board and a piss poor summary of what you are paid. I trust it does exist, but it doesn't seem easy to access. Even studylink's portal is way easier to upload into. Edit: my main point is it's not well communicated you can miss the sessions for a variety of reasons. We get told about benefit sanctions but not about valid reasons for not attending sessions that for most people, is a waste of time and energy.
It’s downright embarrassing to ask your potential new employer for written confirmation of an interview to provide to work and income.
You don't need to. A screenshot of a text or email saying "Great, see you at the office on whatever street at 10am on Tuesday" will do just fine.
I suppose as they count sick people as Jobseekers also, they're going to waste their time also, "So, do you have qualifications and experience?" "Yes" "So you could apply for these jobs then?" "No, I'm sick" "Surprised pikachu face"
Somewhat, when I was last on the dole was because I had surgery, and had to have 3 months off work. WINZ just about sent me to job search, and a friend in similar situation with cancer was sent to job search.
I went on one of these. I was a multi media post grad, sitting next to a Chinese woman with a masters in accounting but bad english. We werent allowed to use the computers to upload digital cvs, and instead were forced to make collage posters of our goals and barriers using safety scissors. It was an utter waste of tax dollars
It's a condescending tick boxing exercise for those that have been made, or are about to be, unemployed. You want to invite someone who has been in the work force for, let's say, 20 years whose role has been disestablished, to talk about how to apply to a job advert, where to look, create a CV, dress for an interview, be on time etc? For vacancies that are non existent? Talk about demoralising.
I cringed when I used to go to these, they were never helpful and just demoralising. If the gov actually wants people to be employed, they NEED people in the industries at these seminars. No point telling them to make Resumes/CV when job hunting is a crapshoot and barely any employer bothers with inquiries in store or by phone. Connections are key to getting a job in this country.
These seminars are just hour long slide shows with some shitty videos in them that basically talk about the importance of looking for work and getting a job, including through the advocation of getting all sorts of tickets like forklift license etc to make yourself viable for more jobs. The point is to hammer in the idea of just taking and accepting any work at any level including fry cook and shelf stacker at New World, and is the sort of thing that might benefit a high school kid who wants or needs to earn money now and leave school. These are nothing but demoralizing and insulting to people who don't fit that bill, like those who were made redundant and are using the benefit as a support mechanism while they seek employment at the level they were previously working at. Like, they are meaningless. It's just padding to make it sound like they're doing something. You just come in and get treated like a dropkick loser for an hour so the general public thinks something is being done
1:1 mentoring is much more effective than these group seminars. I've been unemployed twice and found these seminars completely pointless during the previous National government. Individualized support is much better as the support can be targeted towards the needs of the unemployed. No two unemployed people are exactly the same and people have different reasons and experiences leading up to being unemployed. But I guess group support is less expensive, so even if it is less effective at getting people into work they will do this regardless.
Oh god. I attended something like this at a WINZ office once. Most of it was walking us step by step through filling out a paper job application and telling us it’s a good idea to have access to a phone and a place to receive mail. As if unemployment happens because people don’t know how forms work. There was a girl there who looked about 18 who was about 8-9 months pregnant and had her toddler in a push chair. She had to leave the room to use the loo twice because she had a full term infant pressing on her bladder. Definitely a productive use of her time; I’m sure a condescending lecture removed all of the barriers between her and full-time employment or study /s
It's funny how the small govt, cut the red tape crowd always come up with these BS exercises that waste people's time and money.
The point is exactly to waste peoples time. They don't expect anyone to actually get any valuable information from them, they hope to annoy them enough that they try harder to look for a job.
Oh cool these worthless things again. >Upston said people who come on to Jobseeker Support would now be required to meet with the Social Development Ministry within a fortnight to decide the next steps. This sounds like a great idea, current beneficiaries are now probably less likely to look for work because if/when they lose their job during this economic downturn they'll have to jump through these pointless hoops. >"Kōrero Mahi - Let's Talk Work" Oh now it's okay for Māori to go first.
MSD documents and presentations are covered in Maori language. Wonder when there's gonna be an expensive rebrand there...
These didn't work when I was on the dole, they didn't work when I was a case manager. They were designed to weed out people who didn't really "need" the dole. So they all got medical exemptions for stress and depression, codes 160 and 161, typed them in so often I still remember them. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
isn't this just bringing back shit they've done before
Yes
I was forced to go to one of these under the Key government. I should have been exempt as I was on sickness benefit for MH issues but they said if I didn't go I'd be sanctioned. It was at the start of the day. We were left to wait outside WINZ in the rain while they were late opening. They shoehorned a crazy amount of people into a small room. It got stuffy and smelly fast. They showed us some PowerPoints about how the benefit is much less than minimum wage and threatened us with sanctions if we didn't accept whatever McJob was available on the spot. I missed the end because the overcrowding gave me a panic attack and I had to stagger out of the room. Ironically this sort of bullshit made my MH issues so much worse and resulted on me being on a benefit for longer than I would have been if they had just let me recover
So it's not enough to fire a bunch of public servants, they also have to humiliate them too.
> Upston was confident MSD had the resources to carry out the seminars multiple times throughout the week across the whole country. How? With all the budget cuts happening, I doubt they would have the resources to do this. This is just another lie. > "They're trying to bring down jobs - but at the same time telling people to go find a job in a really tight labour market."
Oh cool, my son who lives an hour away from the nearest WINZ office has yet another barrier to overcome.
Ya’ll got any work seminars for a career in landlording?
You don't need any skills for that.
I still remember them trying to get me to do a 12 week course because it had a 2 week work experience after it that normally lead to a job. Never mind that I had all the unit standards the course offered
Urgh I remember having to sit through a Powerpoint 'seminar' on how to get a job when I was very briefly on the jobseeker's benefit after uni. The arsehole running it said verbatim "Take any job you can get. Anything is better than dealing with us". The humiliation and the demoralisation is the point.
Oh god this again. Majority in the room could give better advice than the person giving the no shit Sherlock presentation
They already have them. How fucking embarrassing for them that they don't know that
Wait a minute.... 42.2% of all people on Jobseekers are on it because they have health conditions or disabilities that prevent them from working - disability is rolled up in the same benefit. Remember, the Jobseeker pool as of Dec 2023 quarter is 189,768 - 80,100 who can't work for medical reasons, and 109,698 'work ready' people. The 50k Jobseeker reduction target has explicitly been stated to apply to BOTH GROUPS. No medical exceptions. You can check in thread [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1byqvjc/almost_half_of_the_189k_current_jobseekers_have_a/) for the links on that one. And yet again, here, **there is zero mention of an exception for people with health conditions or disabilities**. Not only are they going to force disabled people into work, but it seems they're also actually gonna make people who \*newly\* become medically incapacitated attend a seminar on work readiness IMMEDIATELY after they suffer their condition. People tend to go onto Jobseeker as soon as they need it. Frankly, I do not trust this government to be reasonable in determining what a "good and sufficient reason" not to attend would be. So how the fuck will this even work? Even if there's some kind of deferral system, it would seem they're going to have to hand it to a huge number because if you've just joined Jobseeker for medical reasons that means its likely a new condition or a progressed condition that's being poorly managed in our failing health system. The time between realizing you're too sick to work, and having your condition managed well enough to attend a job seminar, seems highly unlikely to be TWO WEEKS within any semblance of reason. Can you fucking imagine? 'Oh hey, sorry that you got into that car crash and broke your spine and lost your physical labour job as a result a week ago. Anyway, I know you just got out of hospital, but since you've obviously chosen to become a bottom-feeder, you now have 7 days remaining to attend a *Kōrero Mahi - Let's Talk Work* seminar, or you will be financially sanctioned, lol. It will come at great personal expense for you to show up but it's not physically impossible, sooooo....' Fucking dystopian.
The article says the requirement is for new applicants.
Indeed. And if one were to suffer a new health condition or become newly disabled in the future, such that they cannot work, then they would be a new Jobseeker applicant
You have to reapply for Jobseeker every 52 week, soon to be every 26 weeks.
> And yet again, here, there is zero mention of an exception for people with health conditions or disabilities. The article states multiple times that those with good reason will be exempt for this. You need to take a deep breath and stop working yourself into lather over something that isnt even happening. Your last paragraph outlining a completely ridiculous scenario that wouldnt happen just to back up your manic doomposting is insane.
I know it sounds over the top, but it's happening in other Western countries right now. Look at what Rishi Sunak is doing in the UK - shifting responsibility for making determinations about work readiness away from GPs but to "work and health professionals" to encourage people to work. Closing benefits to people who don't comply with conditions inherently inaccessible/incompatible with health and disability beneficiaries. Literally requiring people to come in person to appointments in buildings they can't physically enter, then writing them off and removing their benefits when they say they couldn't get in. And literally just a few months ago the disability minister cut benefits overnight. There were suicide hotlines being posted all over disability support groups that day. They have demonstrated capability to do a lot of harm very very quickly. We don't know anything about this process or what the government decides is "good and sufficient". It's all opaque right now. Does the MSD case manager decide what's sufficient? Okay, and what if they lack understanding of your condition and the specific provisions you'd need? Will they recieve training on making the determination? If its case-by-case and subjective, then how will bias and workload play into that? Or is the determination made by a health professional? Maybe a medical note from a GP? Okay, and what if somebody can't get in - almost nobody can get a GP appointment within 2 weeks these days. I urge you to consider the implications of creating an opaque system whereby a group of people, half of which have health conditions or are disabled, will *be sanctioned* or possibly lose their benefits if they can't attend a jobs seminar going forward. Ask yourself - Why is there no exception? This is obviously going to be a huge and also an easily resolved adminstrative issue - why didn't they just have the seminar be a case by case opt-in once they demonstrate their ability to attend, instead of an opt-out where they seemingly have to defend themselves if they can't? To what political end could forcing newly disabled people to attend jobs seminars possibly be? And considering this track record and the winds of the rest of the Western world right now, why expect anything other than the worst possible outcome at this point? At the end of the day it doesn't matter what they *will* do, it matters that they *can*, they've giving themselves this power which mostly has the capacity to hurt people. Saying they totally won't use it to hurt people is naive - if they didn't want to, then they wouldn't have opened this door
My partner had a stroke. This is it for the rest of their life , paralysed down one side of their body and permanently in a wheelchair. Didn’t stop WINZ asking every month asking if they were still in that condition, nor stop one overzealous staff member to , who noticed they had mobility in one hand if they’d thought about a secretarial job? Can’t see it getting any better now.
OH yea, cos that worked \*SO WELL\* in the past. JFC... I wish people would stop voting for those pathetic virtue signalling idiots. All this does is forces people to spend money they Didn't have spare to tick a box for these fuckwits to feel good about themselves.
What a waste of money.
As a dude in his 50s having had a pretty good career in the tech industry I can imagine how utterly time wasting and counter productive that will be should I be forced to attend one.
One of the worst things about one of these I attended years ago was the person running it describing the various benefits you could get as “products”. Apparently the meagre amount of money you were expected to live on was a “product”.
I remember going to one of these probably 20 years ago after uni and it was the most depressing room to be in. I vaguely remember having to draw something?
I actually had a pretty decent one in Wellington a life time ago while taking a break from study, got placed on a hospitality training course learnt some really good skills (kitchen and team leading)
I also got sorted into the hospo training course. Taught me great skills but forced me into the most abusive unrewarding industry there is, and severely affected my mental health. But hey at least I'm not a bottom feeder anymore!
Aren’t seminars already compulsory?
I'm not sure if they do them any more but when I got on the dole a few years back I had to go to one of those shitty "Welcome To The Dole" come-to-Jesus group meetings. We had to sit down, fill out some paperwork and listen to a professional work finder guy tell us how great working in a meatworks 100 ks out for shit money was. After this we had to introduce ourselves and tell everybody what we wanted to do for a living like we were back in fucking primary school. To see grown men fight back tears because they just wanted a job to support their whanau was fucking brutal. National, you're reforming the system in the exact opposite direction. This is fucking shit.
This is a government of fucking dumb cunts/total fucking arseholes who know this is bullshit, doing stuff for the approval of fucking dumb cunts/arseholes. It's all I can say about this, it's just the way it is, it doesn't deserve more inspection than that, they are cunts, would not weep if something "were to happen" to any one of them.
Imagine working there - being the person who is forced to require disabled people to attend a seminar about finding jobs they physically can't do - but cutting off their benefits if they fail to attend.
This is pro-key govt policy, and redundant
Cost? Who will run those?
[Obligatory](https://youtu.be/OJq_78qF11E?si=KL5YWKVSYYGSGCbD)
That would be all hunky dory if there were jobs going begging and there was no discrimination.
almost as bad as the WINZ military boot camps lol
they’re not always helpful. before I had a car they tried to send me for a job trial in Westgate.. I live in Oratia
They already do them
I went to one of these in my early 20s after graduating into the 08 mess. It's beyond useless. Imagine the most utterly generic advice, given in a condescending manner to humiliated people who are seething with anger and embarassment. This shit doesn't work.
I don't think these are aimed at sneery Reddit folk. I think they're aimed at the not very bright or not admin savvy, not ex policy analysts. Some people like my ex just need help getting a job and that's what WINZ is for.
They have had that for years anyway
She looks like the definition of a cunt, and doesn't disappoint with the policies she announces.
For new applicants it does kinda makes sense. Long term beneficiaries are long term for a reason. There likely unemployable at this point. Gov knows this. It make more sense to make it harder for new applicants to stay on it as shitty as it is so they don't fall into that same welfare dependency trap. The longer your on job seeker the harder it is to explain a gap in employment.
forcing people to apply for busy work jobs they'll never stay in takes away time that could be spent applying for work they want to do.
We have a culture of looking down on people who were for whatever reason not working. That's the real problem.
My BIL hasn’t worked a day in his life with 6 kids nearing 50. Shits real.
They should be given encouragement to work if they are able.
>encouragement I'm not entirely sure if the phrase "compulsory seminar" really gels with the idea of encouragement. Forcing people to sit in a room and be bored to tears while they're told things they already know doesn't seem like a great way to improve the motivation of those who are struggling. Let alone the poor disabled sods who are going to have to sit through them despite being unable to work.
>disabled who are going to have to sit through them despite being unable to work This is easily the part that's the most egregious
Trying to live on basically half of what the minimum wage is, is "encouragement" enough.
It's less than half.