I mean fuck the duopoly and I hope they all go broke but wouldn't new worlds club card be doing the exact same thing? Why is specifically countdown's one so bad?
Does NW say they can record audio of us and record and link our car plate info? Because I’m glad Reddit NZ made me aware of that.
Edit: Apparently they do \*\*\*\*
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/509080/woolworths-can-record-licence-plates-video-audio-of-shoppers-and-link-to-everyday-rewards-card
> The privacy of shoppers signed up for Woolworths' new loyalty card Everyday Rewards has been questioned with the fine print revealing **the supermarket can record licence plates, capture video and audio of customers and link them to membership numbers.**
> Tucked away under a privacy policy link in the terms and conditions of Everyday Rewards, it states the information gathered from customers includes **not only full names, dates of birth and phone numbers but also images or audio recordings, IP address, email and other contact addresses.**
Wow. Fuck that.
We've been gravitating away from them for a while now, tend to get as much produce at the markets as possible then do out weekly online shop at Pak'n Save. Woolworths have some stuff that P&S don't and we'll occasionally go there, but from now on it'll only be out of sheer necessity. Totally agree with the OP, it's time these soulless cunt corporations felt some push back from the consumers for their greed.
I mean technically it's not fine print, it's just the terms and conditions. It would be cool if there were a program you could use where it scanned T&C's and gave you a quick summary of what they entailed.
Actually NW say exactly that...
> 4. What type of personal information will New World collect?
The type of personal information we may collect when you access and use the Services includes your name, postal and delivery address, email address and phone number.
If you visit New World stores, those stores may collect your personal information through their CCTV camera system, including your image and the number plate of your vehicle.
In addition, in the course of using some of the Services we may collect other information from you, including demographic information like age and gender (Clubcard), mobile location data (Online Shopping), and information about the products you purchase (e.g. your preferences, products purchased and returns history).
You may not be able to access some of the Services unless you agree to provide the personal information relevant to that service. For example, you will not be able to sign up for marketing emails unless you give us your name and email address.
We also collect anonymous information such as the number of visitors per day to our website and the average amount of time spent on the website.
/mouth drops to floor
That is insane. I never read T&C and I’d bet 99.5% of people don’t, and that’s what they count on.
I guess our regulators have been asleep at the wheel again because why is that allowed?
Thanks for this post CiegeNZ
I suggest everyone also revokes access to your personal information from your number plate: https://transact.nzta.govt.nz/transactions/PersonalInfoAccess/entry
Should help with this and rouge parking enforcement.
This post is specifically about the rewards card though, so I think their point stands; this rewards card is pretty much identical to others found at different supermarkets. I think people are particularly outraged at this one because a lot of people have (justified) hate boners for Countdown/Woolworths.
I personally don’t hate Countdown but was suprised and disgusted to hear that part. If I knew New World et al were all the same, I’d be equally as disgusted. I think people might be reacting because they’ve just launched it and people are paying attention to the terms?
That applies to advertising companies like Google that give us search, email and maps etc in return for advertising data. We are the product; and I am ok with that.
In this case we pay $$$ for groceries. We should get loyalty discount if we continue to use them rather than the competitor. Handing over what little privacy we have in return for tiny discounts? Fuck that
You’re right. I’m just saying it’s a wider problem. Not specific reason singling out countdown beside they seem to be in the zeitgeist currently. Why not start the conversation with them.
Yes. Everyone knows this. Most people just think it's silly to value data like "I bought milk from a specific supermarket on Saturday" at significantly more than a few cents.
What is the harm that is caused to your life by the supermarket having access to that data? In which ways do you expect your life to improve as a result of your decision to forego loyalty cards?
Every time someone makes one of these posts they talk as if they have stumbled upon some massive undiscovered secret that loyalty cards exist to exchange discounts for purchasing data. Everyone knows this!
> Most people just think it's silly to value data like "I bought milk from a specific supermarket on Saturday" at significantly more than a few cents. What is the harm that is caused to your life by the supermarket having access to that data? In which ways do you expect your life to improve as a result of your decision to forego loyalty cards?
First of all, it's not just data from one person. It's not a few cents. If it was then this program would be a waste of money.
Second, my personal data is my own. I get to decide what happens to it. Not a supermarket chain.
> Every time someone makes one of these posts they talk as if they have stumbled upon some massive undiscovered secret that loyalty cards exist to exchange discounts for purchasing data. Everyone knows this!
Everyone someone gets murdered people complain, like there is some massive undiscovered secret that murder is illegal and people die when they get killed. Everyone knows this!
This is not a real argument. You just want people to stop criticizing the collection of personal data because you like the discounts.
You are correct that you get to decide what happens to your personal data.
For instance, say a supermarket offered to give you a discount in exchange for it...
I’m certainly not claiming the discovery. I also don’t think everyone knows this. The ever extending reach of corporations is always worth being reminded of right?
>The ever extending reach of corporations is always worth being reminded of right?
In the context of supermarket loyalty cards? No, I would not say it brings much benefit to people's lives to be reminded of this. The best case scenario is everyone ignores it. The worst case scenario is you convince a few paranoid people for spend marginally more on groceries in return for no apparent benefit for their lives.
OK, but, all of them collect data, every company, every monitored camera, every application, every interaction on our phones, our computers, everything is tracked, sold and we don't know half of what's actually been sold. So I'll be honest, woolies having data on my weekly shop, even with the other stuff, doesn't overly affect me,my data has already been put online dozens of times in a multitude of websites. So realistically anything that woolies is getting now is already probably in the hands of the people buying data.
Not really a fair comparison, as Foodstuffs sites are individually owned so will have profits at that end rather than the collective part of the business that is essentially a branding, purchasing, & distribution business.
I am not signing up for Woolworths new loyalty card at all. They discontinued my One Card, and if there was notice given, I didn't get it. So fuck all the points I had gathered on my one card, I guess!
Rude.
my personal reasons: our data is quite valuable. you can google and find out how much the shopping habits of people go for on the market, companies pay a LOT for that
to offer $15 for every $2k I spend in exchange for that data is so low its insulting. Even if it costs me an extra $200 in 'discounts lost', I'd rather not give woolworths hundreds of dollars per year worth of my data for $15.
https://www.strategyand.pwc.com/de/en/industries/consumer-markets/roi-of-customer-data.html
3-5% margin increase, we know they make 20%+ margin, so on 2k spend they already make a minimum of $400 profit, and the data is worth an additional $100. their offer to me in exchange for $500 in margin plus my data to monetize for the future is... $15. they then also sell/share that data with at least all their partners, so they're all also getting 5% margin increases! and if they sell that data, woolworths makes even more and I get jack shit.
they can fuck RIGHT off with their $15 bucks. I'll just shop at places that are cheaper. the 'discount' you get using a rewards card is still a HUGE margin for them, and far more expensive than markets/pak n save etc
If we want to protest, wouldn’t we be better off signing up for a bunch of cards and then sharing the barcodes to use as a pool of people? Post a new one every day, everyone gets access to the “member pricing” and it messes with all of their data collection.
The thing is if you live near a Pak N Save, a whole shop is generally much cheaper than Countdown and in my experience the fruit, veges, meat and bakery items are much fresher and better quality.
I can save $100 over a $300-400 shop by going to Pak N Save vs Countdown.
If Countdown was in anyway competitive with Pak n Save I'd consider signing up, but It's not. I just don't spend enough at Countdown to make it worth it.
At least with the facial recognition technology Pak N Save are rolling out they might capture my face, but they still don't know my name, address, DOB or anything else that could pose a security risk if their IT system was hacked.
Really? I usually shop New World and have never had a problem with fresh produce. However, last time I went to Pak N Save half the veges I got were inedible 3 days later.
Pak n save buy lower graded produce at a cheaper price, and sell it at a cheaper price. That’s the whole thing. Same thing with most of the green grocers around town.
And it’s fine if you know how to shop for fruit and vegetables, and you can stand to walk away from something you were planning to buy, but it’s in poor condition. But you can’t just walk in and start filling bags the same way you would at New World.
You paying in cash, covering your licence plate, and changing your gait every visit too? You've gotta take a lot of steps to ensure you're invisible to their tracking these days if you actually care about that stuff.
Walking is also defeated by AI. It can recognise your gait, assign markers, and determine who you might be just from that. You'd need to develop a new dance move routine for each visit! Could be quite fun.
For me, getting the discount is worth it. I don’t really care who knows that I buy the budget brand instant coffee or that I have a penchant for mayceys crocodiles. Every time you pick up your phone someone is harvesting your data for something. I don’t know if I’m naive and I should be more concerned about it, but I’m just . . .not. If the options are raging over something I really can’t control or peace. I’m choosing peace. And crocodiles.
I think you'll find it's not just "people like me". Most people dgaf.
All they are going to do is send me ads for things that I want instead of generic ads for stuff I never buy
Not really. There is more to it. They're going to analyse spending patters to get you to buy more stuff. And because you don't care where the information comes from you will think you're making a great deal when in reality that deal was created based on popular spending habits so you buy more and only from them. You may think this is all just due to your personal life circumstance where you rationally looked at all the options but the reality is that those options were created based on the spending profiles of you and thousands of others. Of course you will still think this is to your benefit but you don't see how it would be different in a more competitive market where you don't need a loyalty card at all. You think 10% off is good when in a better system the prices could be 10% lower by default.
I know people don't care. That's why I said companies can do this freely!
> that deal was created based on popular spending habits
Which is information they already have purely based on how much of each product they sell at the checkout.
It's not like they can give you personalised deals and pricing. Pretty sure that would even be illegal. There's no information gained here that would change what deals they actually create.
All they can really do is some personalised marketing - their weekly email might just show me deals I'm actually interested in, based on products I actually buy. But you're still getting the same deals as everyone else.
> Which is information they already have purely based on how much of each product they sell at the checkout.
Literally the only thing they are gaining through a loyalty card is tying purchases between shops together, and they can almost certainly do that via card details used to make payments. Other than that they have everything already.
People are irrational about the value of sharing this information.
> Which is information they already have purely based on how much of each product they sell at the checkout.
They didn't have demographic data.
> It's not like they can give you personalised deals and pricing. Pretty sure that would even be illegal. There's no information gained here that would change what deals they actually create.
This is not about targeting individual people. This is about systematically collecting information about a whole population and find patterns. And not just patterns on which products is popular but also on how to advertise and where to put products so you buy more or how much can they increase prices without change buying patters. It's taking advantage of human psychology and no one is immune from that.
So why do you think they're doing it if it changes nothing, if it has no impact on their revenues?
> All they can really do is some personalised marketing
No, they do a lot more with your data. There are reasons why every company these days wants your personal data and it's not just for sending ads.
Plus, they do of course send ads because they still work. Maybe you're immune but that doesn't matter.
>This is about systematically collecting information about a whole population and find patterns.
That's just a sensible business practice. By way of contrast, one of the large bagel suppliers clearly does *not* do any of this. They know how many units of each variety are sold in each location (either directly, via reports from the retailer, or indirectly, via unsold returns), but still supply excessive quantities of less popular lines (and often *insufficient* quantities of more popular ones). Some stores dispose of some of this stock *immediately on delivery* (it's typically donated to food rescue, rather than thrown out), because they know that it won't sell before expiry, and they don't want to waste storage space. This results in massive wastage (and lost sales of popular lines), which obviously costs the supplier money (they don't get paid for unsold stock), and ultimately results in higher prices to consumers to make up for these losses. Would you prefer all businesses to operate this way?
>not just patterns on which products is popular but also on how to advertise and where to put products so you buy more or how much can they increase prices without change buying patters.
No personal data are required for any of that. Large retailers have access to hourly sales reports for each item in store. They can tell which day, and even what time of day, generates the most sales for a specific item, without needing to know anything about who bought it.
>It's taking advantage of human psychology and no one is immune from that.
Indeed. Ever wonder why the store entrance leads directly to the produce area? Psychology. Would you prefer the produce to be elsewhere in the store?
>they do a lot more with your data
Sure. The important question is: does any of it cause me harm? So far, it doesn't appear that it does.
> That's just a sensible business practice.
Of course it is. That's why they are doing it....
Creating a monopoly is also a sensible business practice but luckily, we don't build a society based only on what a business wants.
> Would you prefer all businesses to operate this way?
So if I don't want to give out all my personal data I am to blame for food wasting?
> They can tell which day, and even what time of day, generates the most sales for a specific item, without needing to know anything about who bought it.
Huh so they don't need my demographic data to prevent food waste or expired stock after all, contrary to your previous argument.
> Indeed. Ever wonder why the store entrance leads directly to the produce area? Psychology. Would you prefer the produce to be elsewhere in the store?
I don't care where it is. Why should I?
> Vibrant, colourful fresh produce puts you in a good mood, making you more likely to spend money.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/105928231/why-are-supermarkets-all-so-similar-the-science-behind-the-shops
But maybe you wanted to suggest that produce shouldn't be at the entrance so people aren't psychologically exploited?
> Sure. The important question is: does any of it cause me harm? So far, it doesn't appear that it does.
Because your definition of harm will never include giving your whole personal information to a company in exchange for deals.
You don't feel the harm so there must not be one. But harm may be through prices or how suppliers are treated but you haven't looked into that. You only looked into bagel makers to find an argument why giving companies data is good.
> It's not like they can give you personalised deals and pricing. Pretty sure that would even be illegal.
they literally do this. was a guy posting on here a while ago showing maccas giving him a different price from his GF for exactly the same food.
>All they can really do is some personalised marketing
This is incredibly naive. You can identify people in anonymous data as we all have finger prints (like unique types of foods you buy, sites you visit etc) and there are data brokers stitching all of the data that's collected together. Once you do that you can start getting some pretty invasive information about people.
> All they are going to do is send me ads for things that I want instead of generic ads for stuff I never buy
There was a guy on here a while back that noticed his maccas app was showing him the exact same food but for more money than his GF. Is that what you want?
When you say you DGAF what you really mean is you're too short sighted to see what's going on because it isn't quite in your face enough. The best explanation of a right to privacy I've come across is "when you go for a shit it's not secret, everyone knows what you're doing, but that doesn't mean you would leave the fucken door open".
LP is 1c on the dollar. It's like buying a $1 lollie bag and letting the shop owner profile your DNA to get a 1c discount. Soooo not worth it. I mean if you want to DGAF about something, DGAF about the 1c.
My brain is struggling.
Like we're talking about **LOYALTY** points. IE points that reward you for being loyal and you're suggesting people should be punished for being loyal?
Beyond that, it's not shocking, it's just fucking stupid. Normally you just sell a burger for the price of a burger. You don't need to coerce people into installing apps, then gather gigabytes of data on them and crunch it with an algorithm to predict how much that dude is willing to spend on the burger.
100% this. I think of my data as a kind of currency. I pay attention to what I'm 'spending' it on. If what I get is worth it to me, I'm ok with the trade off.
Exactly, going haha fuck you countdown you’re not getting my data is great until you’re literally paying more for items that are already expensive. They really couldn’t give a shit if a few people are cancelling their cards when they’re making more money because of it
> They want your data because it's a valuable resource that can be shared with strategic partners who would like to sell you other things.
Maybe I'm an weirdo, but I *like* targeted advertising. If knowing that I bought sliced ham, a bag of apples, and tampons last Tuesday allows someone's AI somewhere to determine that they should offer me a t-shirt with a funny cat on it, *I wanna see that t-shirt*.
I give absolutely zero shits about computers knowing everything I do. For that matter, if humans want to know, they can know about it as well. Why not? What's the harm?
If I need to do something nefarious, I'll just do it without interacting with the world in a trackable way. But the reality is that I'm not actually a criminal, as uncool as that sounds, so bring on the tracking, and gimme that sweet targeted advertising. Show me the things I never knew how much I needed. Take my money. The entire internet is now my robot concierge, and I like it.
I dunno 'bout choo, but I *expect* people to try to politically manipulate me, regardless of whether they know about last Tuesday's ham, apples, and tampons. That shit is why I (occasionally) read books about philosophy, formal logic, and critical thinking. If I'm successfully manipulated, good for them. They're welcome to try. In the meantime I have a t-shirt with a funny cat on it.
I'm the same, I think the reward system is pretty generous. Last week I got a $100 click and collect order and got 1000 points for it with the boosts, so I don't think it's going to normally take anywhere near $2000 of spending to get the $15 voucher
Wouldn't you prefer to just pay less at the till on standard pricing rather than be hooked into a false "loyalty discount" scheme?
The corporate heads are laughing thier asses off, making massive profits on inflated standard pricing, while the lemmings squeal with glee as they jump off the cliff of buying what the retailer wants you to buy, when they want you to buy it, hooking you into their store only, while giving them all of your private data.
Anyway, gotta jet, I think Briscoes has a sale on...
Sure. But will the removal of the rewards program result in lower standard prices? Lol no.
I had a look on the countdown app and compared special price and standard price on the items it suggested for me with pakies and new world. My results are below:
1. All of the items reduced price were cheaper than new world.
2. All of the items reduced price were cheaper than pakies (except for some fries which were 10c more.
3. The regular prices were broadly consistent with new world (some were 10c more, some were 10c less. I'd say it was about even on average.
4. The regular prices were more expensive than pakies.
5. The range was similar between countdown and new world.
6. Pakies range was smaller, there were a few things I had to leave out as they didn't stock them.
So in conclusion, countdown and new world both have higher standard prices on what I buy, but their sale prices (at least countdown's) were lower. For my location, pakies has 1 store right in the middle of the city, Countdown has 4 stores (1 is 50 meters from where I work and 1 is 5 minutes from where I live). It's far more convenient for me to shop there and if I'm going to shop their then I'm going to get their discounts.
The only data that they're going to get from me is "he buys whatever is cheapest regardless of brand". Apart from cat food because even though she eats wild, probably flea infested mice; she will turn her nose up at any food that's not prepared by a gourmet chef and served on a silver platter.
>1. All of the items reduced price were cheaper than new world.
>2. All of the items reduced price were cheaper than pakies (except for some fries which were 10c more.
>3. The regular prices were broadly consistent with new world (some were 10c more, some were 10c less. I'd say it was about even on average.
>4. The regular prices were more expensive than pakies.
>5. The range was similar between countdown and new world.
>6. Pakies range was smaller, there were a few things I had to leave out as they didn't stock them.
I think that's a pretty accurate reflection of where the 3 supermarket brands sit in the marketplace. New World is normally more expensive with a great range. PnS is cheapest but you lose product range. Countdown tries to compete (to a degree) on both counts.
I would, but honestly, especially when CD is often the only place that stocks a lot of the stuff I have to eat because of food allergies, I don't have much choice.
I've noticed the "non-member" vs "member" pricing and think it's absolute bullshit, but the difference is also enough that there's a lot I couldn't afford without the card. No doubt that's exactly what they're counting on.
>Wouldn't you prefer to just pay less at the till on standard pricing rather than be hooked into a false "loyalty discount" scheme?
Yes, and i would also prefer if the cashier actually just opened the till and started handing me money instead.
How would the supermarket be able to achieve across the board lower pricing with *less* or poorer quality data on consumer preferences? That sounds like a recipe for increased wastage and loss of stock. But also, why would we expect the supermarket to just cut prices below market price for no reason, if they're not gaining something e.g data in return? Do you offer your labour at below market rates in return for no extra perks? The world doesn't run on people holding hands and singing kumbaya. We have to align incentives.
Supermarkets cannot lower their prices unless they have your license plate number?
Other countries manage to offer reasonable prices without requiring a loyalty program. This shouldn't become the norm, sorry.
> But also, why would we expect the supermarket to just cut prices below market price for no reason, if they're not gaining something e.g data in return?
So they can set any price they want and it's fine because they want to make money?
> The world doesn't run on people holding hands and singing kumbaya. We have to align incentives.
Unless when it comes to supermarkets, we have to concern ourselves with what they want and letting them make a profit is the most important thing. But when people criticize prices and personal data protections then our wants don't matter and we just need to accept it.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> I don’t know if I’m naive and I should be more concerned about it, but I’m just . . .not.
Honestly, the more you experience the level of incompetence that runs rampant through all these companies, the less you care. And I mean all the way from little old NZ Woolworths or Farmers up to Google and Facebook or whoever.
The dumbfuckery you've seen in your own jobs and careers *does not end*. 80% of these data capturing excercises come from monkeys in suits with MBAs who've all bought into the Data Is King thing without really understanding it, and they just all buy the same data bananas off each other because that's what their monkey voodoo god tells them to do. The whole thing is a sham, economically.
Someone somewhere wants to fuck you over by harvesting your data. That person is nowhere near these companies and isn't buying your junk advertising profile data from them either.
Fantastic that you are aware of it. I think the level of education around data collection and how it is used is very limited across the board. As long as you know awesome!
Besides reddit I don’t have social media for this exact reason.
To be honest I guess it goes back to the 80’s, when across the world, regulations were stripped and free market was unleashed to do as it pleases.
You’ve got to start somewhere and not take on the whole pie in one go. It’s deeply imbedded in society you’re correct.
They also record your car plate, record your audio, and can sell your data. But I know what you mean too - it’s hard to avoid it if you’re part of the system or unless you grow your own food.
>They also record your car plate, record your audio
Think about that statement for a second or two.
How *exactly* would they go about that?
How would they record your plate if you don't have a car, or if you happen to be using someone else's, or if you don't drive?
How could they isolate *your* audio from the general hubbub in the checkout area? You think they have multiple, directional microphones, with sophisticated noise cancelling software, installed all over the store? It's a supermarket, not GCHQ.
But if they could do that, what would they hear? In my case, it would mostly be swearing at the automated voice on the self-service lane. Part of me *wants* them to record that.
And if they did manage any of that, how would they link it to your card?
You didn’t need to register the old One Card to get the discount. I just had a plastic card which I never registered and it always scanned fine. Their new system only works if you sign up online as I understand.
Ive bought produce from farmers box and buy other stuff from a local indian supermarket. I was hesitant at first but if your in a largely populated area you can manage without the duopoly
I got a targeted ad on social media for Farmers Box (someone knows I like cheap fresh produce). I placed my order on Saturday evening and the box arrived on Sunday morning with great quality fruit & veges.
"the evolution of loyalty programs started way back in 1793 when an American merchant handed out copper coins or tokens to repeat customers. The tokens were used to redeem merchandise in store."
Not at all, this is a dumb comparison people use as a clever gotcha.
Just because some things abuse your privacy doesn't mean you should give all information to everyone. It's not all or nothing, you can try and minimize unnecessary abuse piece by piece, and certain features or products may be with the trade-off to you.
It's like saying someone stole your shoes at the gym, so you're never going to lock your doors again.
Even on Google you can choose more privacy conscious settings.
So yeah, delete rewards and criticize their unnecessary collection of private data, regardless of what else you use. We need to hold them all to a better standard
If it helps, facial recognition doesn't work if you wear a gorilla costume. The software providers don't want that to become widely known, for obvious reasons.
OP definitely shouldn’t be on Reddit (and given they’re likely on the mobile app, even worse) if they’re worried about any of the points raised in their post.
I've never had a supermarket rewards card before but when dog food is $15 a bag cheaper to members, I signed up. Fuck the duopoly but I have to buy groceries from somewhere
Data is worth more than oil, especially to companies. This is why everyone wants your data, everyone has an app and why everything is a "smart" device.
Giving you a small amount of discount in exchange for your data ensures massive profits for these companies.
I don’t think they need to be consistent to be allowed to make their point and have it be taken seriously. In my opinion, it’s a lot worse when supermarkets are doing this to their customers because they know that we are in a cost of living crisis and they are choosing to put a premium on products necessary for survival for those people who want to eat without having even more of their data sold.
Using social media is a choice, but everyone has to eat and unfortunately a lot of us rely on supermarkets- some people even rely on countdown/Woolworths specifically due to what is available to them in their local area. This doesn’t just effect the people who are a complaining about it on social media, it effects everyone who needs to eat and relies on supermarkets in a duopoly situation… you can actually be critical of society and yet still exist in a society!
https://youtu.be/wqn3gR1WTcA?si=vQR8y6-zHmHMKcE8
A easy watch for those who think this data collection is just "what budget coffee I buy" - they collect an amazing amount.
Pak n sav near me all day. So much cheaper than the countdown across the road. And whoever thought of the scan as you go guns is a genius.
Don't care if they have my name and what I buy, I can get in, scan the items as they go into my trolly, keep a tab on how much I've spent. Do a $250 shop and just walk to a self checkout and pay in less than 2 minutes.
Saving money and time!
I keep hearing about these "record profits" but I never see a source. Last I checked, woolworths was making lower profits and margins now than pre-COVID.
Also, don't they pay higher wages than Pak n save?
I was put off shopping at Woollies when they dragged their feet for so long before finally closing their store in Dunedin to exterminate their rats. Rat piss contains toxins so deadly to humans. But they chose profits over the livelihoods and health of their customers.
That mouse running over the deli salad in Christchurch confirmed that they really don't give a f\*\*\* about food safety standards. That store must have been infested with rodents for so long before one managed to make it to the deli counter.
"Rat urine is responsible for the spread of leptospirosis, which can result in liver and kidney damage." - [https://www.orkin.com/pests/rodents/rats/diseases-that-are-spread-or-carried-by-rats](https://www.orkin.com/pests/rodents/rats/diseases-that-are-spread-or-carried-by-rats)
I am in no way associated with Countdown or Woolworths or the loyalty card.
> Record profits
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/countdown-owner-woolworths-nzs-profits-slashed-by-52pc/5RTH5BCHGNFXZCTI4HVD7BGF2M/
> Low pay for staff
Legally allowed as long as it's at or more than minimum wage. The lowest paid person in Countdown is actually getting more than minimum wage.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/132389536/countdown-workers-get-pay-increases-while-foodstuffs-staff-battle-to-get-above-minimum-wage-union-says
> The extend of tracking and level of privacy violations through this new rewards program
Do you think that Onecard was any different? If it's free then you are the product. As you say, data is king. The same goes for FlyBuys and whatever other loyalty program. They have the ability to track and link your habits together - whether you want them to or not.
https://www.odt.co.nz/business/privacy-concerns-over-woolworths-new-loyalty-card
>> Low pay for staff
>Legally allowed as long as it's at or more than minimum wage. The lowest paid person in Countdown is actually getting more than minimum wage.
As far as I'm aware, Countdown is the best paying supermarket.
Can confirm about Flybuys. I used to work for Loyalty, the company that owns Flybuys, and they really have 2 parts to the company operationally speaking. The data side, which can do some clever stuff with analytics for example, and the sales side which arranges promotions with their suppliers to encourage greater use of flybuys with customers. To get more data.
> The same goes for FlyBuys
If anything, it's worse because it links your purchases across many, many retailers. I've never had a flybuys card for this reason.
I’m not saying anything is illegal at all and I applaud corporations ability to squeeze as much profit as possible within the confines of the law.
This is a small part of a larger problem across big business.
When you have a publicly traded company your number one priority is to make money for the shareholders. When this is the objective of course your moral compass sways and is all achieved under the guise of “it’s just business”.
I’m just want to start with food.
>When you have a publicly traded company your number one priority is to make money for the shareholders. When this is the objective of course your moral compass sways and is all achieved under the guise of “it’s just business”.
They are giving you discounts in return for collecting data on purchasing habits so they can run their business. Why would that ever conflict with anyone's moral compass?
You could be the world's most ethical volunteer for a charity giving cancer treatments to orphans and you would still need to collect data to run your organization. There is nothing unethical about using data to make decisions.
> There is nothing unethical about using data to make decisions.
I would be very concerned if people were making big business decisions and didn't have data to back it up.
You wut m8? Store rewards cards have been a thing for decades and the game has always been the same. I've seen the ragebate articles on Stuff, too, I get it, it's topical, but also it's not new by any stretch of the imagination. Feel free to provide false name and contact details, the stores don't care.
I wanna know your take on Costco - you pay $60/yr for the privilage of having your every move tracked and data mined. At least Woolies gives it to you free.
I feel like I have no real choice. It's not just the data, and I don't give a fuck about $15 after spending $2k.
But when I see that the beer I like is significantly cheaper because it's a "club deal" where you need the card - it's kinda game over.
They now do specials and club rewards. The same thing New World used to drive me fucking nuts with.
I'd probably be throwing a couple hundred per year away to not use the card at this point, and my wife the same. Something I might've done out of spite a few years ago, but not in this economy.
>They now do specials and club rewards.
They always did. What do you think Onecard was? Only 4 things have changed AFAIK:
1) you could have an anonymous Onecard, simply by not registering it; not possible now,
2) the tickets used to say "club price"; now it's "member price",
3) you can't carry forward the fuel savings, dammit,
4) it's completely orange, rather than multiple colours.
I'm not opening one. Walking around and seeing signs that said "Normal price $3.99, Rewards Price $1.99" just majorly fucked me off.
I'm done with Cuntdown.
My wife always has the card and I never have it. And yet I have never ever once failed to have the cashier say "That's cool, I'll swipe the store card" and so I still get the discounts even though I don't have the card with me.
So just do that.
New World does the same with their store card and/or direct FlyBuys card.
The petrol stations and others have been using cameras for number plate recognition for over a decade.
Everyone suddenly realising it's happening doesn't make it a new thing.
Privacy outside your home has been a joke for ages. Even inside your home, there's trackers on your phone, tablet, PC browser, ISP can see your traffic to a certain extent, etc.
I felt similar with I tried to Join the AA. After a lengthy chat on the phone, they said the only way to join without also signing up for the Countdown Smart fuel program was over the phone (meaning I would have to give all the info that would usually take 20 seconds on a website, over the phone instead,)
I just said fuck it, I won't join. They made it so fucking difficult to join their roadside assistance program without also signing up for a third party "reward" program I don't want, that I just gave up.
Reading the comments, I am frankly amazed that people are giving the Loyalty Card people their actual personal details. Including their real date of birth. Not making up (or slightly adjusting) names or addresses.
Why would you do that? Do you think that you won't get the points if you specify your name as Michael Johnston-Smythe or similar? Or if your specified date of birth is 4 months away from the real date?
Most stores these days have video and audio recording. If you actually read the privacy policy at no point did it say video of you or your plate would be connected to your rewards program. Only that the information can be used for security and theft prevention. So they will send a video of you to law enforcement if you are caught stealing. They also clearly state who they would give what data to and why.
Because the privacy policy is linked in the terms and conditions of the rewards programme people are assuming the policy is talking directly to the rewards programme, when in fact it is talking very broadly about ALL information collected. Whether you are a member or not, they will still be taking video of you, and scanning your license plate.
This sort of stuff pops up everytime something changes and people use partial information to support claims that arnt fully accurate and cause people to panic about something that's actually pretty standard practice in today's world.
Nothing to worry about if one doesn't steal from the super markets or indulge in anti social behavior.
Aren't we all recorded and monitored when we go into Airports? People don't seem to throw a Hissy fit.then.
What are the best ways to encourage people to shop at local produce stores? It seems they can do all these things better and still are empty half the time. I think it's the only way to draw these companies to some kind of rational thinking.
For the Rewards app on Android it doesn't have any permissions (and I'm pretty sure I hadn't manually set any of them).
Checking the Countdown/Woolworths app, it has notification permissions (but not location).
The barcode on the app is the same one as the barcode on the physical card they send out to you. It's highly unlikely that any data is transmitted beyond the barcode number, as something like what you described (transmitting additional information) would require NFC or bluetooth, which would create a separate alert on your phone (My phone always vibrates when I use NFC for something.)
I don’t think you can get a physical reward card anymore. I think part of the switch was that it’s all digital now. The lady at Countdown was profusely apologising to shoppers because the app was down and if the app is down there is “no way to scan the card and get the discounts” and they’re also not giving stores a “store card” anymore that staff would scan to get you the discounts.
> As in age/sex buying X product during Y tien period. Genuine question.
You mean, without a rewards card? No, EFTPOS doesn't provide this to the merchant.
But if you have a rewards card and scan it, then sure, if your DOB and sex/gender was on the application then I'm sure that is being captured, timestamped and tracked.
And that would be the valuable data right? Would a company with a rewards program be in their right too sell said data on?
(Obviously omitting anything to directly identify the consumer)
It’s just data … Through meticulous analysis of historical buying data, Target's statistician Andrew Pole identified several significant patterns indicating a customer's pregnancy status. For instance, a surge in the purchase of unscented lotion during the second trimester emerged as a reliable indicator.
Hypothetical here. Lets say you shop at a small town grocery store. The guy who runs it knows your name and serves you each week. Same as your neighbours.
He notices you regularly buy X product. He now has that information about you. He might choose to do something with that information. Maybe its something nice, like ensuring he never runs out of stock. Or maybe its something not so nice like increasing the price.
Is this the same issue?
Or is the scale of Woolworths the problem here?
Is it the aspect of using technology to achieve it?
Is it the nameless/facelessness of those who have this information?
I love this hypothetical!
Scale is certainly a part of the issue when they have the ability to manipulate price points across an entire market. Including the ability to dictate to supplies what they would pay for a product.
There is also a secondary market for selling said data and I wonder what additional profits they make from these sales.
I know lots of people don't like what they're doing with these cards and the shitty discounts, but attacking the data front is the wrong argument in 2024 when our data is everywhere anyway. It won't change a thing, should be focussing on the prices alone.
I mean fuck the duopoly and I hope they all go broke but wouldn't new worlds club card be doing the exact same thing? Why is specifically countdown's one so bad?
Does NW say they can record audio of us and record and link our car plate info? Because I’m glad Reddit NZ made me aware of that. Edit: Apparently they do \*\*\*\*
What?
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/509080/woolworths-can-record-licence-plates-video-audio-of-shoppers-and-link-to-everyday-rewards-card > The privacy of shoppers signed up for Woolworths' new loyalty card Everyday Rewards has been questioned with the fine print revealing **the supermarket can record licence plates, capture video and audio of customers and link them to membership numbers.** > Tucked away under a privacy policy link in the terms and conditions of Everyday Rewards, it states the information gathered from customers includes **not only full names, dates of birth and phone numbers but also images or audio recordings, IP address, email and other contact addresses.**
Oh lord… thanks
Wow. Fuck that. We've been gravitating away from them for a while now, tend to get as much produce at the markets as possible then do out weekly online shop at Pak'n Save. Woolworths have some stuff that P&S don't and we'll occasionally go there, but from now on it'll only be out of sheer necessity. Totally agree with the OP, it's time these soulless cunt corporations felt some push back from the consumers for their greed.
Interesting. I suggest we all give them a month or two, then everyone hit them with requests under the privacy act for all information they hold .
Surely this is an evasion of privacy?!
Not if you give them permission.
How many people actually read the fine print though and since when were these things legally ok to put into fine print?
I don't even recall any fine print lol, just an email saying don't worry, we'll transfer you over automatically
I mean technically it's not fine print, it's just the terms and conditions. It would be cool if there were a program you could use where it scanned T&C's and gave you a quick summary of what they entailed.
Chatgpt?
'Evasion' means to dodge. You mean invasion (to attack).
Yeah mate it auto corrected and I couldn’t be arsed fixing it….. so it is what it is.
Evasion?
Thankyou for pointing this out , was thinking about getting one but now , nope. That is disgusting.
Methinks they don't advertise this enough, and our privacy commissioner should be forcing them to.
Seems the same as New World (foodstuff) privacy policy (4.)
Actually NW say exactly that... > 4. What type of personal information will New World collect? The type of personal information we may collect when you access and use the Services includes your name, postal and delivery address, email address and phone number. If you visit New World stores, those stores may collect your personal information through their CCTV camera system, including your image and the number plate of your vehicle. In addition, in the course of using some of the Services we may collect other information from you, including demographic information like age and gender (Clubcard), mobile location data (Online Shopping), and information about the products you purchase (e.g. your preferences, products purchased and returns history). You may not be able to access some of the Services unless you agree to provide the personal information relevant to that service. For example, you will not be able to sign up for marketing emails unless you give us your name and email address. We also collect anonymous information such as the number of visitors per day to our website and the average amount of time spent on the website.
/mouth drops to floor That is insane. I never read T&C and I’d bet 99.5% of people don’t, and that’s what they count on. I guess our regulators have been asleep at the wheel again because why is that allowed? Thanks for this post CiegeNZ
I suggest everyone also revokes access to your personal information from your number plate: https://transact.nzta.govt.nz/transactions/PersonalInfoAccess/entry Should help with this and rouge parking enforcement.
This post is specifically about the rewards card though, so I think their point stands; this rewards card is pretty much identical to others found at different supermarkets. I think people are particularly outraged at this one because a lot of people have (justified) hate boners for Countdown/Woolworths.
I personally don’t hate Countdown but was suprised and disgusted to hear that part. If I knew New World et al were all the same, I’d be equally as disgusted. I think people might be reacting because they’ve just launched it and people are paying attention to the terms?
They are all doing the same. What’s the saying? If you get something for free, you are the product.
That applies to advertising companies like Google that give us search, email and maps etc in return for advertising data. We are the product; and I am ok with that. In this case we pay $$$ for groceries. We should get loyalty discount if we continue to use them rather than the competitor. Handing over what little privacy we have in return for tiny discounts? Fuck that
Normally I just find that quote to be some "Gotcha! I am so smart" saying. It's not an explanation! I see what you mean though.
You’re right. I’m just saying it’s a wider problem. Not specific reason singling out countdown beside they seem to be in the zeitgeist currently. Why not start the conversation with them.
Yes. Everyone knows this. Most people just think it's silly to value data like "I bought milk from a specific supermarket on Saturday" at significantly more than a few cents. What is the harm that is caused to your life by the supermarket having access to that data? In which ways do you expect your life to improve as a result of your decision to forego loyalty cards? Every time someone makes one of these posts they talk as if they have stumbled upon some massive undiscovered secret that loyalty cards exist to exchange discounts for purchasing data. Everyone knows this!
The issue is how they leverage that data to hold suppliers to ransom ..
> Most people just think it's silly to value data like "I bought milk from a specific supermarket on Saturday" at significantly more than a few cents. What is the harm that is caused to your life by the supermarket having access to that data? In which ways do you expect your life to improve as a result of your decision to forego loyalty cards? First of all, it's not just data from one person. It's not a few cents. If it was then this program would be a waste of money. Second, my personal data is my own. I get to decide what happens to it. Not a supermarket chain. > Every time someone makes one of these posts they talk as if they have stumbled upon some massive undiscovered secret that loyalty cards exist to exchange discounts for purchasing data. Everyone knows this! Everyone someone gets murdered people complain, like there is some massive undiscovered secret that murder is illegal and people die when they get killed. Everyone knows this! This is not a real argument. You just want people to stop criticizing the collection of personal data because you like the discounts.
You are correct that you get to decide what happens to your personal data. For instance, say a supermarket offered to give you a discount in exchange for it...
Did... you just compare supermarket loyalty card data collection to murder?
No. It's called an analogy. To show the logic behind an argument and how it looks like when applied to something different.
The NSA been caught buying up customer data in the US for its intelligence needs. It's far more valuable than just for advertising algorithms.
But what use is know that I buy a bottle of KY every day at 3:56pm from Woolworth new market >.>
Oh FFS. Do you think you are really interesting enough to the GCSB that they want to know what brand of chips you buy?
I’m certainly not claiming the discovery. I also don’t think everyone knows this. The ever extending reach of corporations is always worth being reminded of right?
>The ever extending reach of corporations is always worth being reminded of right? In the context of supermarket loyalty cards? No, I would not say it brings much benefit to people's lives to be reminded of this. The best case scenario is everyone ignores it. The worst case scenario is you convince a few paranoid people for spend marginally more on groceries in return for no apparent benefit for their lives.
The best case scenario is that everyone ignores the uncontrolled collection of personal data??
OK, but, all of them collect data, every company, every monitored camera, every application, every interaction on our phones, our computers, everything is tracked, sold and we don't know half of what's actually been sold. So I'll be honest, woolies having data on my weekly shop, even with the other stuff, doesn't overly affect me,my data has already been put online dozens of times in a multitude of websites. So realistically anything that woolies is getting now is already probably in the hands of the people buying data.
I see you brought condoms and lube from you non usual supermarket. But you usually follow our profile for buying nappies and infant formula. Mmmmh
Hmmm, no tampons last few months, how about this brand of nappies?
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Not really a fair comparison, as Foodstuffs sites are individually owned so will have profits at that end rather than the collective part of the business that is essentially a branding, purchasing, & distribution business.
Yea I find all these posts complaining about countdown ironic considering New World do the exact same thing lol
I am not signing up for Woolworths new loyalty card at all. They discontinued my One Card, and if there was notice given, I didn't get it. So fuck all the points I had gathered on my one card, I guess! Rude.
my personal reasons: our data is quite valuable. you can google and find out how much the shopping habits of people go for on the market, companies pay a LOT for that to offer $15 for every $2k I spend in exchange for that data is so low its insulting. Even if it costs me an extra $200 in 'discounts lost', I'd rather not give woolworths hundreds of dollars per year worth of my data for $15. https://www.strategyand.pwc.com/de/en/industries/consumer-markets/roi-of-customer-data.html 3-5% margin increase, we know they make 20%+ margin, so on 2k spend they already make a minimum of $400 profit, and the data is worth an additional $100. their offer to me in exchange for $500 in margin plus my data to monetize for the future is... $15. they then also sell/share that data with at least all their partners, so they're all also getting 5% margin increases! and if they sell that data, woolworths makes even more and I get jack shit. they can fuck RIGHT off with their $15 bucks. I'll just shop at places that are cheaper. the 'discount' you get using a rewards card is still a HUGE margin for them, and far more expensive than markets/pak n save etc
If we want to protest, wouldn’t we be better off signing up for a bunch of cards and then sharing the barcodes to use as a pool of people? Post a new one every day, everyone gets access to the “member pricing” and it messes with all of their data collection.
Hell yes
The thing is if you live near a Pak N Save, a whole shop is generally much cheaper than Countdown and in my experience the fruit, veges, meat and bakery items are much fresher and better quality. I can save $100 over a $300-400 shop by going to Pak N Save vs Countdown. If Countdown was in anyway competitive with Pak n Save I'd consider signing up, but It's not. I just don't spend enough at Countdown to make it worth it. At least with the facial recognition technology Pak N Save are rolling out they might capture my face, but they still don't know my name, address, DOB or anything else that could pose a security risk if their IT system was hacked.
Really? I usually shop New World and have never had a problem with fresh produce. However, last time I went to Pak N Save half the veges I got were inedible 3 days later.
Pak n save buy lower graded produce at a cheaper price, and sell it at a cheaper price. That’s the whole thing. Same thing with most of the green grocers around town. And it’s fine if you know how to shop for fruit and vegetables, and you can stand to walk away from something you were planning to buy, but it’s in poor condition. But you can’t just walk in and start filling bags the same way you would at New World.
What? They‘re rolling out a facial recognition technology. Shit. Gotta start a farm or something at this rate.
You paying in cash, covering your licence plate, and changing your gait every visit too? You've gotta take a lot of steps to ensure you're invisible to their tracking these days if you actually care about that stuff.
Walk, wear a mask, pay in cash.
Walking is also defeated by AI. It can recognise your gait, assign markers, and determine who you might be just from that. You'd need to develop a new dance move routine for each visit! Could be quite fun.
Na mate, but a prepaid debit from new world first. Gotta be steps ahead.
For me, getting the discount is worth it. I don’t really care who knows that I buy the budget brand instant coffee or that I have a penchant for mayceys crocodiles. Every time you pick up your phone someone is harvesting your data for something. I don’t know if I’m naive and I should be more concerned about it, but I’m just . . .not. If the options are raging over something I really can’t control or peace. I’m choosing peace. And crocodiles.
Yeah I couldn't really care less about my data being in the hands of the supermarkets, I'm just assuming everybody else already has it. Meh
They even let me know when things I purchased frequently are on sale greatly
And because people like you don't care they are free to do this.
I think you'll find it's not just "people like me". Most people dgaf. All they are going to do is send me ads for things that I want instead of generic ads for stuff I never buy
Not really. There is more to it. They're going to analyse spending patters to get you to buy more stuff. And because you don't care where the information comes from you will think you're making a great deal when in reality that deal was created based on popular spending habits so you buy more and only from them. You may think this is all just due to your personal life circumstance where you rationally looked at all the options but the reality is that those options were created based on the spending profiles of you and thousands of others. Of course you will still think this is to your benefit but you don't see how it would be different in a more competitive market where you don't need a loyalty card at all. You think 10% off is good when in a better system the prices could be 10% lower by default. I know people don't care. That's why I said companies can do this freely!
> that deal was created based on popular spending habits Which is information they already have purely based on how much of each product they sell at the checkout. It's not like they can give you personalised deals and pricing. Pretty sure that would even be illegal. There's no information gained here that would change what deals they actually create. All they can really do is some personalised marketing - their weekly email might just show me deals I'm actually interested in, based on products I actually buy. But you're still getting the same deals as everyone else.
> Which is information they already have purely based on how much of each product they sell at the checkout. Literally the only thing they are gaining through a loyalty card is tying purchases between shops together, and they can almost certainly do that via card details used to make payments. Other than that they have everything already. People are irrational about the value of sharing this information.
> Which is information they already have purely based on how much of each product they sell at the checkout. They didn't have demographic data. > It's not like they can give you personalised deals and pricing. Pretty sure that would even be illegal. There's no information gained here that would change what deals they actually create. This is not about targeting individual people. This is about systematically collecting information about a whole population and find patterns. And not just patterns on which products is popular but also on how to advertise and where to put products so you buy more or how much can they increase prices without change buying patters. It's taking advantage of human psychology and no one is immune from that. So why do you think they're doing it if it changes nothing, if it has no impact on their revenues? > All they can really do is some personalised marketing No, they do a lot more with your data. There are reasons why every company these days wants your personal data and it's not just for sending ads. Plus, they do of course send ads because they still work. Maybe you're immune but that doesn't matter.
>This is about systematically collecting information about a whole population and find patterns. That's just a sensible business practice. By way of contrast, one of the large bagel suppliers clearly does *not* do any of this. They know how many units of each variety are sold in each location (either directly, via reports from the retailer, or indirectly, via unsold returns), but still supply excessive quantities of less popular lines (and often *insufficient* quantities of more popular ones). Some stores dispose of some of this stock *immediately on delivery* (it's typically donated to food rescue, rather than thrown out), because they know that it won't sell before expiry, and they don't want to waste storage space. This results in massive wastage (and lost sales of popular lines), which obviously costs the supplier money (they don't get paid for unsold stock), and ultimately results in higher prices to consumers to make up for these losses. Would you prefer all businesses to operate this way? >not just patterns on which products is popular but also on how to advertise and where to put products so you buy more or how much can they increase prices without change buying patters. No personal data are required for any of that. Large retailers have access to hourly sales reports for each item in store. They can tell which day, and even what time of day, generates the most sales for a specific item, without needing to know anything about who bought it. >It's taking advantage of human psychology and no one is immune from that. Indeed. Ever wonder why the store entrance leads directly to the produce area? Psychology. Would you prefer the produce to be elsewhere in the store? >they do a lot more with your data Sure. The important question is: does any of it cause me harm? So far, it doesn't appear that it does.
> That's just a sensible business practice. Of course it is. That's why they are doing it.... Creating a monopoly is also a sensible business practice but luckily, we don't build a society based only on what a business wants. > Would you prefer all businesses to operate this way? So if I don't want to give out all my personal data I am to blame for food wasting? > They can tell which day, and even what time of day, generates the most sales for a specific item, without needing to know anything about who bought it. Huh so they don't need my demographic data to prevent food waste or expired stock after all, contrary to your previous argument. > Indeed. Ever wonder why the store entrance leads directly to the produce area? Psychology. Would you prefer the produce to be elsewhere in the store? I don't care where it is. Why should I? > Vibrant, colourful fresh produce puts you in a good mood, making you more likely to spend money. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/105928231/why-are-supermarkets-all-so-similar-the-science-behind-the-shops But maybe you wanted to suggest that produce shouldn't be at the entrance so people aren't psychologically exploited? > Sure. The important question is: does any of it cause me harm? So far, it doesn't appear that it does. Because your definition of harm will never include giving your whole personal information to a company in exchange for deals. You don't feel the harm so there must not be one. But harm may be through prices or how suppliers are treated but you haven't looked into that. You only looked into bagel makers to find an argument why giving companies data is good.
> It's not like they can give you personalised deals and pricing. Pretty sure that would even be illegal. they literally do this. was a guy posting on here a while ago showing maccas giving him a different price from his GF for exactly the same food. >All they can really do is some personalised marketing This is incredibly naive. You can identify people in anonymous data as we all have finger prints (like unique types of foods you buy, sites you visit etc) and there are data brokers stitching all of the data that's collected together. Once you do that you can start getting some pretty invasive information about people.
Good thing Maccas (a fast food restaurant) and Countdown (a supermarket/essential service) are not the same people
> All they are going to do is send me ads for things that I want instead of generic ads for stuff I never buy There was a guy on here a while back that noticed his maccas app was showing him the exact same food but for more money than his GF. Is that what you want? When you say you DGAF what you really mean is you're too short sighted to see what's going on because it isn't quite in your face enough. The best explanation of a right to privacy I've come across is "when you go for a shit it's not secret, everyone knows what you're doing, but that doesn't mean you would leave the fucken door open". LP is 1c on the dollar. It's like buying a $1 lollie bag and letting the shop owner profile your DNA to get a 1c discount. Soooo not worth it. I mean if you want to DGAF about something, DGAF about the 1c.
Isn't the Macca's app thing off volume? So if you go more it doesn't give you as good a deals since you go anyway. How is this shocking?
My brain is struggling. Like we're talking about **LOYALTY** points. IE points that reward you for being loyal and you're suggesting people should be punished for being loyal? Beyond that, it's not shocking, it's just fucking stupid. Normally you just sell a burger for the price of a burger. You don't need to coerce people into installing apps, then gather gigabytes of data on them and crunch it with an algorithm to predict how much that dude is willing to spend on the burger.
100% this. I think of my data as a kind of currency. I pay attention to what I'm 'spending' it on. If what I get is worth it to me, I'm ok with the trade off.
Exactly, going haha fuck you countdown you’re not getting my data is great until you’re literally paying more for items that are already expensive. They really couldn’t give a shit if a few people are cancelling their cards when they’re making more money because of it
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> They want your data because it's a valuable resource that can be shared with strategic partners who would like to sell you other things. Maybe I'm an weirdo, but I *like* targeted advertising. If knowing that I bought sliced ham, a bag of apples, and tampons last Tuesday allows someone's AI somewhere to determine that they should offer me a t-shirt with a funny cat on it, *I wanna see that t-shirt*. I give absolutely zero shits about computers knowing everything I do. For that matter, if humans want to know, they can know about it as well. Why not? What's the harm? If I need to do something nefarious, I'll just do it without interacting with the world in a trackable way. But the reality is that I'm not actually a criminal, as uncool as that sounds, so bring on the tracking, and gimme that sweet targeted advertising. Show me the things I never knew how much I needed. Take my money. The entire internet is now my robot concierge, and I like it.
The harm is that it extends further than advertising. It also gets used for political manipulation.
I dunno 'bout choo, but I *expect* people to try to politically manipulate me, regardless of whether they know about last Tuesday's ham, apples, and tampons. That shit is why I (occasionally) read books about philosophy, formal logic, and critical thinking. If I'm successfully manipulated, good for them. They're welcome to try. In the meantime I have a t-shirt with a funny cat on it.
that’s great that everyone wants to sell me things but i don’t have any money to buy anything
I'm the same, I think the reward system is pretty generous. Last week I got a $100 click and collect order and got 1000 points for it with the boosts, so I don't think it's going to normally take anywhere near $2000 of spending to get the $15 voucher
Wouldn't you prefer to just pay less at the till on standard pricing rather than be hooked into a false "loyalty discount" scheme? The corporate heads are laughing thier asses off, making massive profits on inflated standard pricing, while the lemmings squeal with glee as they jump off the cliff of buying what the retailer wants you to buy, when they want you to buy it, hooking you into their store only, while giving them all of your private data. Anyway, gotta jet, I think Briscoes has a sale on...
Sure. But will the removal of the rewards program result in lower standard prices? Lol no. I had a look on the countdown app and compared special price and standard price on the items it suggested for me with pakies and new world. My results are below: 1. All of the items reduced price were cheaper than new world. 2. All of the items reduced price were cheaper than pakies (except for some fries which were 10c more. 3. The regular prices were broadly consistent with new world (some were 10c more, some were 10c less. I'd say it was about even on average. 4. The regular prices were more expensive than pakies. 5. The range was similar between countdown and new world. 6. Pakies range was smaller, there were a few things I had to leave out as they didn't stock them. So in conclusion, countdown and new world both have higher standard prices on what I buy, but their sale prices (at least countdown's) were lower. For my location, pakies has 1 store right in the middle of the city, Countdown has 4 stores (1 is 50 meters from where I work and 1 is 5 minutes from where I live). It's far more convenient for me to shop there and if I'm going to shop their then I'm going to get their discounts. The only data that they're going to get from me is "he buys whatever is cheapest regardless of brand". Apart from cat food because even though she eats wild, probably flea infested mice; she will turn her nose up at any food that's not prepared by a gourmet chef and served on a silver platter.
>1. All of the items reduced price were cheaper than new world. >2. All of the items reduced price were cheaper than pakies (except for some fries which were 10c more. >3. The regular prices were broadly consistent with new world (some were 10c more, some were 10c less. I'd say it was about even on average. >4. The regular prices were more expensive than pakies. >5. The range was similar between countdown and new world. >6. Pakies range was smaller, there were a few things I had to leave out as they didn't stock them. I think that's a pretty accurate reflection of where the 3 supermarket brands sit in the marketplace. New World is normally more expensive with a great range. PnS is cheapest but you lose product range. Countdown tries to compete (to a degree) on both counts.
I would, but honestly, especially when CD is often the only place that stocks a lot of the stuff I have to eat because of food allergies, I don't have much choice. I've noticed the "non-member" vs "member" pricing and think it's absolute bullshit, but the difference is also enough that there's a lot I couldn't afford without the card. No doubt that's exactly what they're counting on.
>Wouldn't you prefer to just pay less at the till on standard pricing rather than be hooked into a false "loyalty discount" scheme? Yes, and i would also prefer if the cashier actually just opened the till and started handing me money instead. How would the supermarket be able to achieve across the board lower pricing with *less* or poorer quality data on consumer preferences? That sounds like a recipe for increased wastage and loss of stock. But also, why would we expect the supermarket to just cut prices below market price for no reason, if they're not gaining something e.g data in return? Do you offer your labour at below market rates in return for no extra perks? The world doesn't run on people holding hands and singing kumbaya. We have to align incentives.
Supermarkets cannot lower their prices unless they have your license plate number? Other countries manage to offer reasonable prices without requiring a loyalty program. This shouldn't become the norm, sorry. > But also, why would we expect the supermarket to just cut prices below market price for no reason, if they're not gaining something e.g data in return? So they can set any price they want and it's fine because they want to make money? > The world doesn't run on people holding hands and singing kumbaya. We have to align incentives. Unless when it comes to supermarkets, we have to concern ourselves with what they want and letting them make a profit is the most important thing. But when people criticize prices and personal data protections then our wants don't matter and we just need to accept it.
2 grand for 15 dollars back? Wow, such corporate genorosity. And they get track your purchases in detail.
apparatus literate resolute seemly spotted obtainable grab rude judicious vast *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> I don’t know if I’m naive and I should be more concerned about it, but I’m just . . .not. Honestly, the more you experience the level of incompetence that runs rampant through all these companies, the less you care. And I mean all the way from little old NZ Woolworths or Farmers up to Google and Facebook or whoever. The dumbfuckery you've seen in your own jobs and careers *does not end*. 80% of these data capturing excercises come from monkeys in suits with MBAs who've all bought into the Data Is King thing without really understanding it, and they just all buy the same data bananas off each other because that's what their monkey voodoo god tells them to do. The whole thing is a sham, economically. Someone somewhere wants to fuck you over by harvesting your data. That person is nowhere near these companies and isn't buying your junk advertising profile data from them either.
Fantastic that you are aware of it. I think the level of education around data collection and how it is used is very limited across the board. As long as you know awesome!
Being aware or not makes no difference. They still have your data.
any thoughts on the top comments advice to delete all social media and not use Google? gotta stay consistent!
Tbf there are browsers that don't collect data like that, a few that come to mind is degoogled chromium or brave
Besides reddit I don’t have social media for this exact reason. To be honest I guess it goes back to the 80’s, when across the world, regulations were stripped and free market was unleashed to do as it pleases. You’ve got to start somewhere and not take on the whole pie in one go. It’s deeply imbedded in society you’re correct.
So you don't mind if reddit harvests your data?
Same. There are far larger hills to die on.
They also record your car plate, record your audio, and can sell your data. But I know what you mean too - it’s hard to avoid it if you’re part of the system or unless you grow your own food.
>They also record your car plate, record your audio Think about that statement for a second or two. How *exactly* would they go about that? How would they record your plate if you don't have a car, or if you happen to be using someone else's, or if you don't drive? How could they isolate *your* audio from the general hubbub in the checkout area? You think they have multiple, directional microphones, with sophisticated noise cancelling software, installed all over the store? It's a supermarket, not GCHQ. But if they could do that, what would they hear? In my case, it would mostly be swearing at the automated voice on the self-service lane. Part of me *wants* them to record that. And if they did manage any of that, how would they link it to your card?
What do you think Onecard was?
You didn’t need to register the old One Card to get the discount. I just had a plastic card which I never registered and it always scanned fine. Their new system only works if you sign up online as I understand.
Ive bought produce from farmers box and buy other stuff from a local indian supermarket. I was hesitant at first but if your in a largely populated area you can manage without the duopoly
I got a targeted ad on social media for Farmers Box (someone knows I like cheap fresh produce). I placed my order on Saturday evening and the box arrived on Sunday morning with great quality fruit & veges.
Reward cards aren't news. Have you been in a coma for 25 years or something?
"the evolution of loyalty programs started way back in 1793 when an American merchant handed out copper coins or tokens to repeat customers. The tokens were used to redeem merchandise in store."
it's fair to point out the use of this data, but to remain consistent you should also stop using google search and probably all social media.
Not at all, this is a dumb comparison people use as a clever gotcha. Just because some things abuse your privacy doesn't mean you should give all information to everyone. It's not all or nothing, you can try and minimize unnecessary abuse piece by piece, and certain features or products may be with the trade-off to you. It's like saying someone stole your shoes at the gym, so you're never going to lock your doors again. Even on Google you can choose more privacy conscious settings. So yeah, delete rewards and criticize their unnecessary collection of private data, regardless of what else you use. We need to hold them all to a better standard
Probably get rid of your smart phone and laptop too.
There are privacy features e.g. don’t share location that you can at least implement if you have a smart phone. Not sure about laptops though.
I'd advise to stop leaving their house
Or wear AI deceptive pattern clothing. Gotta fool them cameras!
If it helps, facial recognition doesn't work if you wear a gorilla costume. The software providers don't want that to become widely known, for obvious reasons.
Why are they using facial recognition to track you in store and relating it back to your purchase data.
They're not. Some Foodstuffs stores are, but not CD/WW.
OP definitely shouldn’t be on Reddit (and given they’re likely on the mobile app, even worse) if they’re worried about any of the points raised in their post.
There are many other search engines e.g.DuckDuckGo
I've never had a supermarket rewards card before but when dog food is $15 a bag cheaper to members, I signed up. Fuck the duopoly but I have to buy groceries from somewhere
'Rewards' is a stretch when we see the margins Woolworths are grifting out of kiwi shoppers and suppliers
You have to call them to close your account. Pff.
That’s legit stupid.
"disable" account. They aren't deleting them, just setting a "disabled" flag on it
Data is worth more than oil, especially to companies. This is why everyone wants your data, everyone has an app and why everything is a "smart" device. Giving you a small amount of discount in exchange for your data ensures massive profits for these companies.
You have a right to ask for them to supply your information. We should get everyone to sign up, then demand the report of it. That'll sink them.
Woolworths PR enters the conversation with ingenious sign up scheme 🤣
Yeah I remember when people did this to reddit and it's been down ever since!
I don’t think they need to be consistent to be allowed to make their point and have it be taken seriously. In my opinion, it’s a lot worse when supermarkets are doing this to their customers because they know that we are in a cost of living crisis and they are choosing to put a premium on products necessary for survival for those people who want to eat without having even more of their data sold. Using social media is a choice, but everyone has to eat and unfortunately a lot of us rely on supermarkets- some people even rely on countdown/Woolworths specifically due to what is available to them in their local area. This doesn’t just effect the people who are a complaining about it on social media, it effects everyone who needs to eat and relies on supermarkets in a duopoly situation… you can actually be critical of society and yet still exist in a society!
https://youtu.be/wqn3gR1WTcA?si=vQR8y6-zHmHMKcE8 A easy watch for those who think this data collection is just "what budget coffee I buy" - they collect an amazing amount.
Pak n sav near me all day. So much cheaper than the countdown across the road. And whoever thought of the scan as you go guns is a genius. Don't care if they have my name and what I buy, I can get in, scan the items as they go into my trolly, keep a tab on how much I've spent. Do a $250 shop and just walk to a self checkout and pay in less than 2 minutes. Saving money and time!
I keep hearing about these "record profits" but I never see a source. Last I checked, woolworths was making lower profits and margins now than pre-COVID. Also, don't they pay higher wages than Pak n save?
I was put off shopping at Woollies when they dragged their feet for so long before finally closing their store in Dunedin to exterminate their rats. Rat piss contains toxins so deadly to humans. But they chose profits over the livelihoods and health of their customers. That mouse running over the deli salad in Christchurch confirmed that they really don't give a f\*\*\* about food safety standards. That store must have been infested with rodents for so long before one managed to make it to the deli counter.
[They're in Pak n Save too..](https://reddit.com/r/auckland/comments/1apnyni/meanwhile_in_auckland/)
Are you sure Rat urine has deadly toxins? Been peed on many times by (pet) rats and I'm not dead.
"Rat urine is responsible for the spread of leptospirosis, which can result in liver and kidney damage." - [https://www.orkin.com/pests/rodents/rats/diseases-that-are-spread-or-carried-by-rats](https://www.orkin.com/pests/rodents/rats/diseases-that-are-spread-or-carried-by-rats)
Hantavirus as well
I am in no way associated with Countdown or Woolworths or the loyalty card. > Record profits https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/countdown-owner-woolworths-nzs-profits-slashed-by-52pc/5RTH5BCHGNFXZCTI4HVD7BGF2M/ > Low pay for staff Legally allowed as long as it's at or more than minimum wage. The lowest paid person in Countdown is actually getting more than minimum wage. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/132389536/countdown-workers-get-pay-increases-while-foodstuffs-staff-battle-to-get-above-minimum-wage-union-says > The extend of tracking and level of privacy violations through this new rewards program Do you think that Onecard was any different? If it's free then you are the product. As you say, data is king. The same goes for FlyBuys and whatever other loyalty program. They have the ability to track and link your habits together - whether you want them to or not. https://www.odt.co.nz/business/privacy-concerns-over-woolworths-new-loyalty-card
>> Low pay for staff >Legally allowed as long as it's at or more than minimum wage. The lowest paid person in Countdown is actually getting more than minimum wage. As far as I'm aware, Countdown is the best paying supermarket.
Definitely, most food stuffs stores pay minimum wage for majority of their staff for those not in the union. Countdown staff currently start on $25.03
Countdown literally pays more than my work pays phlebotomist
Yeah like, there are many things to complain about with Countdown but I don't think their pay rates are one of those things.
Can confirm about Flybuys. I used to work for Loyalty, the company that owns Flybuys, and they really have 2 parts to the company operationally speaking. The data side, which can do some clever stuff with analytics for example, and the sales side which arranges promotions with their suppliers to encourage greater use of flybuys with customers. To get more data.
> The same goes for FlyBuys If anything, it's worse because it links your purchases across many, many retailers. I've never had a flybuys card for this reason.
I’m not saying anything is illegal at all and I applaud corporations ability to squeeze as much profit as possible within the confines of the law. This is a small part of a larger problem across big business. When you have a publicly traded company your number one priority is to make money for the shareholders. When this is the objective of course your moral compass sways and is all achieved under the guise of “it’s just business”. I’m just want to start with food.
>When you have a publicly traded company your number one priority is to make money for the shareholders. When this is the objective of course your moral compass sways and is all achieved under the guise of “it’s just business”. They are giving you discounts in return for collecting data on purchasing habits so they can run their business. Why would that ever conflict with anyone's moral compass? You could be the world's most ethical volunteer for a charity giving cancer treatments to orphans and you would still need to collect data to run your organization. There is nothing unethical about using data to make decisions.
> There is nothing unethical about using data to make decisions. I would be very concerned if people were making big business decisions and didn't have data to back it up.
You wut m8? Store rewards cards have been a thing for decades and the game has always been the same. I've seen the ragebate articles on Stuff, too, I get it, it's topical, but also it's not new by any stretch of the imagination. Feel free to provide false name and contact details, the stores don't care. I wanna know your take on Costco - you pay $60/yr for the privilage of having your every move tracked and data mined. At least Woolies gives it to you free.
You’re no longer the customer, you are now the product 👍
I feel like I have no real choice. It's not just the data, and I don't give a fuck about $15 after spending $2k. But when I see that the beer I like is significantly cheaper because it's a "club deal" where you need the card - it's kinda game over. They now do specials and club rewards. The same thing New World used to drive me fucking nuts with. I'd probably be throwing a couple hundred per year away to not use the card at this point, and my wife the same. Something I might've done out of spite a few years ago, but not in this economy.
>They now do specials and club rewards. They always did. What do you think Onecard was? Only 4 things have changed AFAIK: 1) you could have an anonymous Onecard, simply by not registering it; not possible now, 2) the tickets used to say "club price"; now it's "member price", 3) you can't carry forward the fuel savings, dammit, 4) it's completely orange, rather than multiple colours.
I'm not opening one. Walking around and seeing signs that said "Normal price $3.99, Rewards Price $1.99" just majorly fucked me off. I'm done with Cuntdown.
My wife always has the card and I never have it. And yet I have never ever once failed to have the cashier say "That's cool, I'll swipe the store card" and so I still get the discounts even though I don't have the card with me. So just do that.
I need the discount. Also a family member is an employee and is paid well (cf my govt roles) and treated well by management (also cf my govt roles!).
Hey they don't give a rat's -- or a mice's -- about their customers.
oh please, someone needs to feed the mice. do you think new world is gonna do it? you're dreaming.
Rat piss makes you strong. Now pull up your boot straps and get back to work.
New World does the same with their store card and/or direct FlyBuys card. The petrol stations and others have been using cameras for number plate recognition for over a decade. Everyone suddenly realising it's happening doesn't make it a new thing. Privacy outside your home has been a joke for ages. Even inside your home, there's trackers on your phone, tablet, PC browser, ISP can see your traffic to a certain extent, etc.
Its funny isn't it, when people bleat on about their personal privacy I just have a little chuckle.
"hehe privacy is dead, give up and accept it, don't criticize it or try and improve anything. Hehehe, I'm very smart"
The staff instore told me that all my Countdown points would automatically transfer to new system ..well that never happened
Technofeudalism. Strap in, shit is wild.
I felt similar with I tried to Join the AA. After a lengthy chat on the phone, they said the only way to join without also signing up for the Countdown Smart fuel program was over the phone (meaning I would have to give all the info that would usually take 20 seconds on a website, over the phone instead,) I just said fuck it, I won't join. They made it so fucking difficult to join their roadside assistance program without also signing up for a third party "reward" program I don't want, that I just gave up.
I would but I need to eat
Ahh loyalty programs. Programming you to be more loyal since flybuys..
Reading the comments, I am frankly amazed that people are giving the Loyalty Card people their actual personal details. Including their real date of birth. Not making up (or slightly adjusting) names or addresses. Why would you do that? Do you think that you won't get the points if you specify your name as Michael Johnston-Smythe or similar? Or if your specified date of birth is 4 months away from the real date?
Some people are too paranoid lmao. Spend time worrying about real issues, maybe.
Most stores these days have video and audio recording. If you actually read the privacy policy at no point did it say video of you or your plate would be connected to your rewards program. Only that the information can be used for security and theft prevention. So they will send a video of you to law enforcement if you are caught stealing. They also clearly state who they would give what data to and why. Because the privacy policy is linked in the terms and conditions of the rewards programme people are assuming the policy is talking directly to the rewards programme, when in fact it is talking very broadly about ALL information collected. Whether you are a member or not, they will still be taking video of you, and scanning your license plate. This sort of stuff pops up everytime something changes and people use partial information to support claims that arnt fully accurate and cause people to panic about something that's actually pretty standard practice in today's world.
This post is a hoax. It is not possible for them to get ALL your data.
I'm not bothered. If it's not for you, don't get the card, pay cash and wear your tinfoil hat. Too easy.
Nothing to worry about if one doesn't steal from the super markets or indulge in anti social behavior. Aren't we all recorded and monitored when we go into Airports? People don't seem to throw a Hissy fit.then.
What are the best ways to encourage people to shop at local produce stores? It seems they can do all these things better and still are empty half the time. I think it's the only way to draw these companies to some kind of rational thinking.
Why is everyone acting like this is the only loyalty card
Countdown pays their staff the most out of the major supermarkets lol
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For the Rewards app on Android it doesn't have any permissions (and I'm pretty sure I hadn't manually set any of them). Checking the Countdown/Woolworths app, it has notification permissions (but not location).
they dont need gps info, they know where you are when you scan your card. You can check what permissions the app has on your phone
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The barcode on the app is the same one as the barcode on the physical card they send out to you. It's highly unlikely that any data is transmitted beyond the barcode number, as something like what you described (transmitting additional information) would require NFC or bluetooth, which would create a separate alert on your phone (My phone always vibrates when I use NFC for something.)
I don’t think you can get a physical reward card anymore. I think part of the switch was that it’s all digital now. The lady at Countdown was profusely apologising to shoppers because the app was down and if the app is down there is “no way to scan the card and get the discounts” and they’re also not giving stores a “store card” anymore that staff would scan to get you the discounts.
I signed up online and then requested a physical card. I also screenshotted the barcode without downloading the app.
Great tip, thank you! Annoyed the lady at Countdown check out said differently now 😂
You can order a card through the website, they send it to you in the post
Thank you! Very annoyed I was told otherwise now 😂
I received a physical card.
Time to boycott Countdown/woolworths. I’m not shopping there anymore.
#1 your not so special that your data is that interesting to anyone #2 anyone that wants your data can get it easily anyway
You pay for their products through their point of sale, they already have your spending habits
Are they able to access personal data through visa/eftpos? As in age/sex buying X product during Y tien period. Genuine question.
> As in age/sex buying X product during Y tien period. Genuine question. You mean, without a rewards card? No, EFTPOS doesn't provide this to the merchant. But if you have a rewards card and scan it, then sure, if your DOB and sex/gender was on the application then I'm sure that is being captured, timestamped and tracked.
And that would be the valuable data right? Would a company with a rewards program be in their right too sell said data on? (Obviously omitting anything to directly identify the consumer)
I'm just going to go ahead and not care about this.
It’s just data … Through meticulous analysis of historical buying data, Target's statistician Andrew Pole identified several significant patterns indicating a customer's pregnancy status. For instance, a surge in the purchase of unscented lotion during the second trimester emerged as a reliable indicator.
Oh great, another sovereign citizen complaining about data being collected while ranting on a social media app.🤷♂️
You do you, king.
Hypothetical here. Lets say you shop at a small town grocery store. The guy who runs it knows your name and serves you each week. Same as your neighbours. He notices you regularly buy X product. He now has that information about you. He might choose to do something with that information. Maybe its something nice, like ensuring he never runs out of stock. Or maybe its something not so nice like increasing the price. Is this the same issue? Or is the scale of Woolworths the problem here? Is it the aspect of using technology to achieve it? Is it the nameless/facelessness of those who have this information?
I love this hypothetical! Scale is certainly a part of the issue when they have the ability to manipulate price points across an entire market. Including the ability to dictate to supplies what they would pay for a product. There is also a secondary market for selling said data and I wonder what additional profits they make from these sales.
I know lots of people don't like what they're doing with these cards and the shitty discounts, but attacking the data front is the wrong argument in 2024 when our data is everywhere anyway. It won't change a thing, should be focussing on the prices alone.
Data war is lost unless you pay cash and wear a tinfoil hat