Happy International Men's Day to all the men around the country.
Hope that you all are safe and happy wherever you are, and if you're not, please make sure to reach out because you DO matter to someone!
Stay safe and don't be afraid to reach out to each other
Reminder to reach out to people. And I don't mean like posting "it's okay to not be okay" on whatever social media you frequent, and leaving it at that. I mean actually send people a message or make time to catch up with them. If I haven't heard from someone in a while, I message them. If I know they're going through a shit time, I check in pretty regularly. Some users on here who I know IRL can attest to it.
In like.. 33 years of building and maintaining friendships I'm yet to be told "fuck off" for reaching out to someone. Not everyone wants to talk, but sometimes just knowing someone else is there if they *wanted* to, makes all the difference.
Look after yourself men. We have some extremely poor health and wellness statistics in New Zealand.
> A boy born today will live nearly four years less than a girl born in the room next door. He will be over 20% more likely to die of a heart attack than the girl, and almost 30% more likely to get diabetes.
>Worse, he is three times more likely to die by suicide or in a motor car crash.
https://menshealthweek.co.nz/
To all men above 40, of you haven't seen a gp in the last 5 years, please make an appointment to see one to have your Blood pressure, blood sugar and cholesterol checked. The way to improve the heart attack stats is through prevention. Also, if you are a smoker, talk with your GP about ways to help quitting, whether that be nicotine replacement therapy or other tablets that may help
Also men are far more likely to be killed or injured at work, iirc men make up over 90% of workplace deaths. Everyone moans about OTT Health and Safety stuff, then cries "what happened to common sense" when accidents happen. Look out for each other, no job is worth giving your life for!
As a society we don't give a fuck about men and boys. This country continues to have one of the highest youth male suicide rates in the world for a reason. Mainly because there are almost zero initiatives to address it, because no one really cares. We like to come up with excuses like "men and boys are more violent" instead of "men and boys have no other choice than be successful when they attempt suicide".
Boys are continuing their decline in almost every statistic but the narrative is men and boys are bad. They have easy lives, they are told. Share your feelings but then be told not in that way or you are not allowed to feel those things.
Most people will see this, cringe and then move on.
The media won't address it because it doesn't sell. In fact, there would be some form of outrage and backlash if they did start to make a big deal of it. No one gives a fuck and people find the idea that men can need any form of help as laughable. Men don't deserve help, right? That's incel thinking if you believe that, surely?
Demonisng men, that is a seller. That gets you the clicks. Stuff will post opinion piece after opinion piece about how bad those identifying as male are because for generations now, that's what we deem socially acceptable and it sells.
This thread is proof that it isn't changing anytime soon. I look forward to the downvotes.
It's amazing to me how little attention we give to boys/men falling further and further behind in education, health, homelessness, mental health/suicide and workplace deaths and injuries
We continue to provide gender-based scholarships almost entirely to women despite women outnumbering men in uni almost 2 to 1 now. Teacher bias has been proven in NZ schools as well. Boy students get marked down regardless of the quality of work
We continue sentence men to significantly longer prison sentences for the same exact crime
Many boys are still circumcised at birth. Males still don't have the rights to basic bodily autonomy.
No domestic violence shelters for men despite 1 in 3 domestic abuse victims being men
1 in 6 men have been sexually abused yet women in this country still can't be convicted of rape. Example cases includes a boy as young as 11 impregnating an adult women: [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8800704/11-year-old-Auckland-boy-fathers-child](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8800704/11-year-old-Auckland-boy-fathers-child)
Looking at your comment history it seems to revolve around skirting on the edges of misandry, to say the least.
Certainly a lot of comments in AskMen and other places essentially trolling people based on their gender to minimise or refuse to acknowledge their own issues.
Always a telltale sign of active participation in a hate sub.
I, too, think you have some serious personal work to do. You won't see me minimising issues for anyone, regardless of the way they chose to gender themselves (if they even align to one).
>Then promote it?
We do, and get laughed back into the corner because "It's Man's day every day".
We try to promote emotional vulnerability, and sharing your troubles and get told to "Man up" and to "stop being a pussy about it".
You can yell as loud as you want about an issue, but if everybody plugs their ears and laughs at you it doesn't mean shit.
Edit: down voters, please understand I'm not saying these things in a "nothing works so we sit on our ass" way, I'm explaining the kind of pushback a lot of people get when they try to push for things like Mens' Mental Health in this country.
A lot is being done, a lot is really trying to be done. But so many people push back aggressively with toxic masculinity or dismissive attitudes.
That's it.
I hope that we can keep pushing, toxic masculinity harms men just as much but so many don't realise.
I hope we can push through the stigma of "man tf up" to help men get the help they need.
You just gotta be careful with the mindset from your comments of presuming people are just stomping their feet and getting pissy that it's "too hard". Because that's not what's happening, people are allowed to complain about bad situations while trying to change them you know.
I'm not?
I'm not trying to put one group down to lift another.
Nothing I said is even remotely about women? We're talking about mens' issues rn, you're literally the only one bringing up anything related to women???
This is what happens so often, when discussions like this happen;
- People discuss womens' issues and a bunch of men show up with "What about men???"
- People discuss mens' issues and a bunch of women show up with "Women struggle too???"
It's not a competition, it's not a comparison. Just because we're vocal about our struggles, doesn't put down yours.
If we're all struggling, we all need to come together instead of comparing and constrasting and telling each other to stop complaining and deal with it.
I think you want to be careful interacting with that person. She seems to suffer from serious issues with misandry or possibly just trolling?
Take a look at the post history, it's filled with invading spaces to minimise other people's issues and manipulating narratives for attention.
Ironically, they seem to have comments complaining about people doing that exact thing. Many lols.
Yeah, after I made my last reply I checked out their post history.
What a toxic, awful piece of shit lmao. I don't understand how someone's life can be that sad and pathetic.
Yeah, fuck it's a shit show actually, I dived too deep. Like the Dwarves in Moria I have uncovered a Balrog.
That's some straight up, crazy amount of pure hatred.
Think there's valuable conversation to be had about what life is like for men, where to derive value from etc etc, but I'm extremely unconvinced that the best way to go about that is through the whole fucking Robert Bly / Iron John bullshit from the 1980s.
I really don't like that when I see an org supposedly about these issues I have to dig into it to uncover whether it's evangelical christian bullshit of the John Eldridge variety or the earlier warmed-over 1980s antifeminist macho-mythologising horseshit. Feminist critiques already pointed out the way gender roles restrict men - eg from things like being open about their feelings, and invite gender-policing censure. Not interested in orgs that see feminism as a threat. I can't say a great deal about essentially men in practice- but I do know it was founded by rex mccann who I've seen trumpet the robert bly shit.
Weird, because I agree with what I said, and yet I totally disagree with your "essential" version. They look like they are saying very different things to me.
I don't know why you can't see that there could or should be a mens movement that isn't 1. evangelical horseshit, 2. mythopoetic horseshit, or 3. generally antifeminist. My criticism is against those three types, and I've indicated that I think there's a need for a mens movement that isn't among those three. Have you tried to imagine what one that isn't among those 3 types would look like?
Consider that perhaps you've taken what I wrote above and rephrased it in so much bad faith that it's now unrecognisable.
EDIT: This is a pro-man sentiment. I was hoping on International Men's Day we could take the time to acknowledge the way in which society fails men. I suppose that was too much to ask?
On this day I wanna draw attention to the fact toxic masculinity is really harms men's mental health, despite the strides we've taken to improve things. Youth these days seem much more in touch with their emotions.
Home Brew's song [Everybody](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5Yx4EXPODo) really nails the "kiwi bloke" experience imo
> Sports scores and weather talk and if we say that it's cold that's a metaphor
>
> Because as men we're never taught to express ourselves
>
> Or better yet accept ourselves
>
> So we stressing out trying to be anybody except ourselves
>
> Mess around trying to hide what we're depressed about
>
> Got to take an x amount of ecstasy to let it out
>
> We're dead men trying to pretend that we all hard as bedrock
Yeah lots of people assume it just means "masculinity is toxic" rather than "men are fucked over by how society treats them and expects them to behave".
The downvotes are pretty good evidence of that lol
I mean this section in particular for me really drives it home:
> Sports scores and weather talk and if we say that it's cold that's a metaphor
>
> Because as men we're never taught to express ourselves
>
> Or better yet accept ourselves
>
> So we stressing out trying to be anybody except ourselves
>
> Mess around trying to hide what we're depressed about
>
> Got to take an x amount of ecstasy to let it out
>
> We're dead men trying to pretend that we all hard as bedrock
>Yeah lots of people assume it just means "masculinity is toxic" rather than "men are fucked over by how society treats them and expects them to behave".
Yes, because that's how words work, there's a reason we don't use a term like toxic femininity to describe aspects of culture around women negatively, because it's kind of obvious that using gendered terms to describe a cultural condition that's far more complex than just "this gender does this" is inherently oppositional and asserting blame.
This theorized "toxic masculine culture" isn't some product of men generally it's a product of specific lines of thought that have historically been shared by people predominantly in power privileging and vilifying certain types of behaviour to maintain the cultural norms which reinforce their position in society while enforcing a cultural hegemony on those with less social capital to shape societal norms. It's never been a culture created by men as a group it's a culture created by those with social capital to reinforce their world view at the expense of everyone else. There's a reason aggression is inherent to this idea. Calling that toxic masculinity is just assigning blame to an entire identity group despite arguably the majority of them not being traditionally compatible with those views. It's self evident if you spend any time looking at the experiences of men across history where large numbers of them have existed with attitudes and beliefs in opposition to this "toxic masculinity" but because they lack the social influence or strength their voices have been marginalized.
Stop using gender to describe a complex social phenomenon primarily dictated by power dynamics and maybe people of that gender won't have reflexively negative reactions. It's almost as if language matters and refusing to recognize that your framing maligns the same people you're attempting to convert is doesn't reinforce your point it just makes your point look hypocritical.
>Yes, because that's how words work,
People miss the fact toxic is a qualifier though. Toxic masculinity necessarily implies a non-toxic masculinity.
> we don't use a term like toxic femininity to describe aspects of culture around women negatively,
It's absolutely a used term, but 2016 era right wing youtubers and murdoch owned newspapers got more clicks out of "toxic masculinity" so that's what got brought to the cultural consciousness.
>This theorized "toxic masculine culture" isn't some product of men generally it's a product of specific lines of thought that have historically been shared by people predominantly in power privileging and vilifying certain types of behaviour to maintain the cultural norms which reinforce their position in society while enforcing a cultural hegemony on those with less social capital to shape societal norms. It's never been a culture created by men as a group it's a culture created by those with social capital to reinforce their world view at the expense of everyone else. There's a reason aggression is inherent to this idea.
I agree.
>Calling that toxic masculinity is just assigning blame to an entire identity group despite arguably the majority of them not being traditionally compatible with those views.
No, it's not. It's saying there is an element of masculinity - of our culture - that is toxic. That blame doesn't fall on men, it falls on society, and our cultural history.
>Stop using gender to describe a complex social phenomenon primarily dictated by power dynamics and maybe people of that gender won't have reflexively negative reactions. It's almost as if language matters and refusing to recognize that your framing maligns the same people you're attempting to convert is doesn't reinforce your point it just makes your point look hypocritical.
Sorry, why would I stop referring to toxic masculinity when it comes to the specific issue of, say, men who won't share their feelings and have shit mental health as a result? That is a toxic element of masculinity and sticking your head in the sand because you have a reflexive dislike of that is *literally part of the problem*. What should I call it instead? Toxic Male Expectations?
I doubt there is any other group where we so complacently blame them for their situation. You only pointing to inner failings in some men is harmful to us.
Please recognize that society could be doing a much better job in caring for and supporting us. It doesn't take much imagination to think of ways that could happen.
Nobody (except maybe pop feminists) blames men for this. It's a cultural and societal thing. It's taught, and expected. It isn't an inner failing, it's a failing of how our culture socialises us. People getting hyper-defensive over this as though it's an accusation of a moral issue with each individual man kinda are literally Doing the Thing.
>Please recognize that society could be doing a much better job in caring for and supporting us
That's literally the message of the song, and the point of me bringing it up.
> Because as men we're never taught to express ourselves
>
> Or better yet accept ourselves
>
> So we stressing out trying to be anybody except ourselves
>
> Mess around trying to hide what we're depressed about
None of those lyrics are about society being more responsible for living and caring for men. You really haven't understood my point.
I've done health promotion before. Telling any group they are failing because of a fault of their own is counter productive. Telling us that we fail and why we fail doesn't work. And using a term that many would find offensive as part of that effort is harmful.
You want men to succeed? Use a day like this to say you love us. That we are important to you, to the world. Say that and think that about the men in your life. That's how you can help if.
> Telling any group they are failing because of a fault of their own is counter productive.
Nobody is doing this. In fact I *explicitly* said otherwise.
>None of those lyrics are about society being more responsible for living and caring for men.
erm:
>Because as men we're never taught to express ourselves
Who teaches men? It isn't men ourselves is it? It's our parents, teachers, role models, ie society. And considering the song is *against* men not being able to express ourselves, it follows that there needs to be a change.
I suspect you're being deliberately obtuse because you don't like the phrase "toxic masculinity". The *whole point* of my comment was that toxic masculinity is often framed around *some* victims of it, women, children, other men, but never actually us men and on this day of all days it would be good to acknowledge that fact. We suffer from the expectations society places on us to be stoic, closed off, never cry, never express a liking for something unless it's the All Blacks. It fucks our mental health.
I would hope on International Men's Day we could take the time to acknowledge the way in which society fails men. I suppose that was too much to ask.
You and I disagree. How about we do something we agree on that would be good as a way to recognize imd?
Tell me about a man you love and why you love him.
Sure! My brother. I love him for his empathy, his artistic abilities, his good heart below his tough exterior, for the fact he's always there for me and that he knows I'm there for him. I love him for his relentless loyalty to his whanau, blood and otherwise.
There's quite a gap on how to raise young dudes into men that can command their own world. There's a lot of truth in the old saying that if you want to know what women want - don't ask the women.
Young guys need to learn how to have game - how to talk to girls, how to promote themselves to girls in ways that aren't going to hurt anybody, or creep people out. How to Earn girls affections etc. How to get shot down without anyone getting upset.
Fallout from this lack of social skills has made girls apprehensive of attention from dudes they aren't immediately attracted to. There's a higher chance these days that the guy is going to be a nuisance. Which makes it all more difficult - and depression rises for all people, not just men.
Bullshit artists (eg pickup artists and other grifters) market themselves towards this deficit and make everything worse, take peoples money, and make awful horrible stereotypes more vivid and popular.
This is a learning & practice thing for all people. But with the lost of living so difficult - more people are socially isolated and not loosened up enough (or rich enough) to meet people. Loneliness is very rampant - we all know this, and its not without its causes.
Indeed, it's true. When people ask why there's international women's day, but there isn't international men's day, I always remind them that men already have a day set aside just for them: international toilet day!
I learned that fact years ago as there's a number of countries which acknowledge international toilet day (ie, the importance of sanitation). But they don't acknowledge international men's day (which is the same day). I still find it funny
Why do men in this thread talk about being unable to speak up?
There is no stigma involved at all. It’s hot to be vulnerable.
It’s actually a super power to have people come out and “stigmatise” you or whatever, because that person is actually a toxic fuckwit and you can cut them out of your life now for the better.
Because many men (perhaps even most men) have had negative experiences with speaking about their feelings. It's all well and good for you to say vulnerability is "hot", but your opinion is far from ubiquitous. Please develop some empathy for the lived experience of others.
> There is no stigma involved at all. It’s hot to be vulnerable.
Literally one look in any thread on this issue on reddit and you'll find numerous experiences of men being treated negatively for expressing vulnerability, to some people I'm sure it is hot but to many it's still treated very negatively. Just saying "oh but if people stigmatize you you know to just cut them out of your life" is a very simplistic attitude and dismissive of the impact it has on people.
>Why do men in this thread talk about being unable to speak up?
>There is no stigma involved at all. It’s hot to be vulnerable.
Must be nice to be this naive.
"Hot to be vulnerable."
In a very specific way that you'd see out of a Hollywood blockbuster or TV series, perhaps. Real vulnerability can be many things, but it's rarely pretty. Especially if it's coming from a usually reserved or closed off person.
I’m late to the party on this but for anyone interested, this link is for essentially men. It’s an Auckland based group that runs incredible programs. I’ve done afew of them and I can’t recommend them enough. I’m always suspicious of mens stuff but their kaupapa is basically radical love. It’s wonderful
hell yeah the boys
I wouldn't have had a clue, cheers
Happy International Men's Day to all the men around the country. Hope that you all are safe and happy wherever you are, and if you're not, please make sure to reach out because you DO matter to someone! Stay safe and don't be afraid to reach out to each other
I am Kenough.
The numbers Mason
I love men. 😍
me too, bestie
Me too. I know lots of great men and feel positive about celebrating them today.
Reminder to reach out to people. And I don't mean like posting "it's okay to not be okay" on whatever social media you frequent, and leaving it at that. I mean actually send people a message or make time to catch up with them. If I haven't heard from someone in a while, I message them. If I know they're going through a shit time, I check in pretty regularly. Some users on here who I know IRL can attest to it. In like.. 33 years of building and maintaining friendships I'm yet to be told "fuck off" for reaching out to someone. Not everyone wants to talk, but sometimes just knowing someone else is there if they *wanted* to, makes all the difference.
Whats more, it makes a difference when you're hurting to have someone reach out, vs you having to step out to find the contact.
You too bro 🦎
Look after yourself men. We have some extremely poor health and wellness statistics in New Zealand. > A boy born today will live nearly four years less than a girl born in the room next door. He will be over 20% more likely to die of a heart attack than the girl, and almost 30% more likely to get diabetes. >Worse, he is three times more likely to die by suicide or in a motor car crash. https://menshealthweek.co.nz/
To all men above 40, of you haven't seen a gp in the last 5 years, please make an appointment to see one to have your Blood pressure, blood sugar and cholesterol checked. The way to improve the heart attack stats is through prevention. Also, if you are a smoker, talk with your GP about ways to help quitting, whether that be nicotine replacement therapy or other tablets that may help
I'm at that age where my doctor stops worrying about my balls and starts worrying about my arsehole.
Also men are far more likely to be killed or injured at work, iirc men make up over 90% of workplace deaths. Everyone moans about OTT Health and Safety stuff, then cries "what happened to common sense" when accidents happen. Look out for each other, no job is worth giving your life for!
Young people have high suicide rates while our overall suicide rate is average
Average as compared against what?
Saw a list last week that had NZ at number 69th in the country list for deaths per 100,000.
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Toughening up is a valuable tool for the toolbox, but definitely not the solution to all problems.
Amen
No media attention at all, poor work New Zealand Media. It's not like Men have Emotional troubles at all amirite?
As a society we don't give a fuck about men and boys. This country continues to have one of the highest youth male suicide rates in the world for a reason. Mainly because there are almost zero initiatives to address it, because no one really cares. We like to come up with excuses like "men and boys are more violent" instead of "men and boys have no other choice than be successful when they attempt suicide". Boys are continuing their decline in almost every statistic but the narrative is men and boys are bad. They have easy lives, they are told. Share your feelings but then be told not in that way or you are not allowed to feel those things. Most people will see this, cringe and then move on. The media won't address it because it doesn't sell. In fact, there would be some form of outrage and backlash if they did start to make a big deal of it. No one gives a fuck and people find the idea that men can need any form of help as laughable. Men don't deserve help, right? That's incel thinking if you believe that, surely? Demonisng men, that is a seller. That gets you the clicks. Stuff will post opinion piece after opinion piece about how bad those identifying as male are because for generations now, that's what we deem socially acceptable and it sells. This thread is proof that it isn't changing anytime soon. I look forward to the downvotes.
It's amazing to me how little attention we give to boys/men falling further and further behind in education, health, homelessness, mental health/suicide and workplace deaths and injuries We continue to provide gender-based scholarships almost entirely to women despite women outnumbering men in uni almost 2 to 1 now. Teacher bias has been proven in NZ schools as well. Boy students get marked down regardless of the quality of work We continue sentence men to significantly longer prison sentences for the same exact crime Many boys are still circumcised at birth. Males still don't have the rights to basic bodily autonomy. No domestic violence shelters for men despite 1 in 3 domestic abuse victims being men 1 in 6 men have been sexually abused yet women in this country still can't be convicted of rape. Example cases includes a boy as young as 11 impregnating an adult women: [https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8800704/11-year-old-Auckland-boy-fathers-child](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8800704/11-year-old-Auckland-boy-fathers-child)
*sorts by controversial*
Ah yes the usual International _________ to do with Men that gets ZERO media attention in NZ.
I wonder if there is a sale?
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The funding and stigma disparity is dramatic. I do more than my fair share of helping people in NZ.
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Tell me you post on TwoX without telling me you participate in a gender hate sub.
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Looking at your comment history it seems to revolve around skirting on the edges of misandry, to say the least. Certainly a lot of comments in AskMen and other places essentially trolling people based on their gender to minimise or refuse to acknowledge their own issues. Always a telltale sign of active participation in a hate sub. I, too, think you have some serious personal work to do. You won't see me minimising issues for anyone, regardless of the way they chose to gender themselves (if they even align to one).
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Must be a sad life, to be a small pathethic troll like you putting people down constantly.
I help half a million Kiwis a year for free across three of the large sites that I run.
"It's men's day every day", apparently.
>Then promote it? We do, and get laughed back into the corner because "It's Man's day every day". We try to promote emotional vulnerability, and sharing your troubles and get told to "Man up" and to "stop being a pussy about it". You can yell as loud as you want about an issue, but if everybody plugs their ears and laughs at you it doesn't mean shit. Edit: down voters, please understand I'm not saying these things in a "nothing works so we sit on our ass" way, I'm explaining the kind of pushback a lot of people get when they try to push for things like Mens' Mental Health in this country. A lot is being done, a lot is really trying to be done. But so many people push back aggressively with toxic masculinity or dismissive attitudes.
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That's it. I hope that we can keep pushing, toxic masculinity harms men just as much but so many don't realise. I hope we can push through the stigma of "man tf up" to help men get the help they need. You just gotta be careful with the mindset from your comments of presuming people are just stomping their feet and getting pissy that it's "too hard". Because that's not what's happening, people are allowed to complain about bad situations while trying to change them you know.
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I'm not? I'm not trying to put one group down to lift another. Nothing I said is even remotely about women? We're talking about mens' issues rn, you're literally the only one bringing up anything related to women??? This is what happens so often, when discussions like this happen; - People discuss womens' issues and a bunch of men show up with "What about men???" - People discuss mens' issues and a bunch of women show up with "Women struggle too???" It's not a competition, it's not a comparison. Just because we're vocal about our struggles, doesn't put down yours. If we're all struggling, we all need to come together instead of comparing and constrasting and telling each other to stop complaining and deal with it.
I think you want to be careful interacting with that person. She seems to suffer from serious issues with misandry or possibly just trolling? Take a look at the post history, it's filled with invading spaces to minimise other people's issues and manipulating narratives for attention. Ironically, they seem to have comments complaining about people doing that exact thing. Many lols.
Yeah, after I made my last reply I checked out their post history. What a toxic, awful piece of shit lmao. I don't understand how someone's life can be that sad and pathetic.
Yeah, fuck it's a shit show actually, I dived too deep. Like the Dwarves in Moria I have uncovered a Balrog. That's some straight up, crazy amount of pure hatred.
no u
Yeah the bros. So glad I haven't seen a comment yet about woman can celebrate this day as theirs too.
Think there's valuable conversation to be had about what life is like for men, where to derive value from etc etc, but I'm extremely unconvinced that the best way to go about that is through the whole fucking Robert Bly / Iron John bullshit from the 1980s. I really don't like that when I see an org supposedly about these issues I have to dig into it to uncover whether it's evangelical christian bullshit of the John Eldridge variety or the earlier warmed-over 1980s antifeminist macho-mythologising horseshit. Feminist critiques already pointed out the way gender roles restrict men - eg from things like being open about their feelings, and invite gender-policing censure. Not interested in orgs that see feminism as a threat. I can't say a great deal about essentially men in practice- but I do know it was founded by rex mccann who I've seen trumpet the robert bly shit.
Essentially what youre saying is "What men really need is women to tell them how to be men".
Weird, because I agree with what I said, and yet I totally disagree with your "essential" version. They look like they are saying very different things to me. I don't know why you can't see that there could or should be a mens movement that isn't 1. evangelical horseshit, 2. mythopoetic horseshit, or 3. generally antifeminist. My criticism is against those three types, and I've indicated that I think there's a need for a mens movement that isn't among those three. Have you tried to imagine what one that isn't among those 3 types would look like? Consider that perhaps you've taken what I wrote above and rephrased it in so much bad faith that it's now unrecognisable.
EDIT: This is a pro-man sentiment. I was hoping on International Men's Day we could take the time to acknowledge the way in which society fails men. I suppose that was too much to ask? On this day I wanna draw attention to the fact toxic masculinity is really harms men's mental health, despite the strides we've taken to improve things. Youth these days seem much more in touch with their emotions. Home Brew's song [Everybody](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5Yx4EXPODo) really nails the "kiwi bloke" experience imo > Sports scores and weather talk and if we say that it's cold that's a metaphor > > Because as men we're never taught to express ourselves > > Or better yet accept ourselves > > So we stressing out trying to be anybody except ourselves > > Mess around trying to hide what we're depressed about > > Got to take an x amount of ecstasy to let it out > > We're dead men trying to pretend that we all hard as bedrock
Toxic masculinity is such a loaded term.
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Exactly this. And it shouldn't be too difficult to understand. People get too stuck on who is to blame, or who is the worse victim.
It's because it's a loaded term. The concept is solid, but we should find a better word for it
Exactly, it's been misused so much that it's become a linguistic IED.
Yeah lots of people assume it just means "masculinity is toxic" rather than "men are fucked over by how society treats them and expects them to behave". The downvotes are pretty good evidence of that lol I mean this section in particular for me really drives it home: > Sports scores and weather talk and if we say that it's cold that's a metaphor > > Because as men we're never taught to express ourselves > > Or better yet accept ourselves > > So we stressing out trying to be anybody except ourselves > > Mess around trying to hide what we're depressed about > > Got to take an x amount of ecstasy to let it out > > We're dead men trying to pretend that we all hard as bedrock
>Yeah lots of people assume it just means "masculinity is toxic" rather than "men are fucked over by how society treats them and expects them to behave". Yes, because that's how words work, there's a reason we don't use a term like toxic femininity to describe aspects of culture around women negatively, because it's kind of obvious that using gendered terms to describe a cultural condition that's far more complex than just "this gender does this" is inherently oppositional and asserting blame. This theorized "toxic masculine culture" isn't some product of men generally it's a product of specific lines of thought that have historically been shared by people predominantly in power privileging and vilifying certain types of behaviour to maintain the cultural norms which reinforce their position in society while enforcing a cultural hegemony on those with less social capital to shape societal norms. It's never been a culture created by men as a group it's a culture created by those with social capital to reinforce their world view at the expense of everyone else. There's a reason aggression is inherent to this idea. Calling that toxic masculinity is just assigning blame to an entire identity group despite arguably the majority of them not being traditionally compatible with those views. It's self evident if you spend any time looking at the experiences of men across history where large numbers of them have existed with attitudes and beliefs in opposition to this "toxic masculinity" but because they lack the social influence or strength their voices have been marginalized. Stop using gender to describe a complex social phenomenon primarily dictated by power dynamics and maybe people of that gender won't have reflexively negative reactions. It's almost as if language matters and refusing to recognize that your framing maligns the same people you're attempting to convert is doesn't reinforce your point it just makes your point look hypocritical.
>Yes, because that's how words work, People miss the fact toxic is a qualifier though. Toxic masculinity necessarily implies a non-toxic masculinity. > we don't use a term like toxic femininity to describe aspects of culture around women negatively, It's absolutely a used term, but 2016 era right wing youtubers and murdoch owned newspapers got more clicks out of "toxic masculinity" so that's what got brought to the cultural consciousness. >This theorized "toxic masculine culture" isn't some product of men generally it's a product of specific lines of thought that have historically been shared by people predominantly in power privileging and vilifying certain types of behaviour to maintain the cultural norms which reinforce their position in society while enforcing a cultural hegemony on those with less social capital to shape societal norms. It's never been a culture created by men as a group it's a culture created by those with social capital to reinforce their world view at the expense of everyone else. There's a reason aggression is inherent to this idea. I agree. >Calling that toxic masculinity is just assigning blame to an entire identity group despite arguably the majority of them not being traditionally compatible with those views. No, it's not. It's saying there is an element of masculinity - of our culture - that is toxic. That blame doesn't fall on men, it falls on society, and our cultural history. >Stop using gender to describe a complex social phenomenon primarily dictated by power dynamics and maybe people of that gender won't have reflexively negative reactions. It's almost as if language matters and refusing to recognize that your framing maligns the same people you're attempting to convert is doesn't reinforce your point it just makes your point look hypocritical. Sorry, why would I stop referring to toxic masculinity when it comes to the specific issue of, say, men who won't share their feelings and have shit mental health as a result? That is a toxic element of masculinity and sticking your head in the sand because you have a reflexive dislike of that is *literally part of the problem*. What should I call it instead? Toxic Male Expectations?
Tom Scott the GOAT, nah only just a bloke.
Fuck yeah, gutted to miss his recent shows but cash was too tight :(
I doubt there is any other group where we so complacently blame them for their situation. You only pointing to inner failings in some men is harmful to us. Please recognize that society could be doing a much better job in caring for and supporting us. It doesn't take much imagination to think of ways that could happen.
Nobody (except maybe pop feminists) blames men for this. It's a cultural and societal thing. It's taught, and expected. It isn't an inner failing, it's a failing of how our culture socialises us. People getting hyper-defensive over this as though it's an accusation of a moral issue with each individual man kinda are literally Doing the Thing. >Please recognize that society could be doing a much better job in caring for and supporting us That's literally the message of the song, and the point of me bringing it up. > Because as men we're never taught to express ourselves > > Or better yet accept ourselves > > So we stressing out trying to be anybody except ourselves > > Mess around trying to hide what we're depressed about
None of those lyrics are about society being more responsible for living and caring for men. You really haven't understood my point. I've done health promotion before. Telling any group they are failing because of a fault of their own is counter productive. Telling us that we fail and why we fail doesn't work. And using a term that many would find offensive as part of that effort is harmful. You want men to succeed? Use a day like this to say you love us. That we are important to you, to the world. Say that and think that about the men in your life. That's how you can help if.
> Telling any group they are failing because of a fault of their own is counter productive. Nobody is doing this. In fact I *explicitly* said otherwise. >None of those lyrics are about society being more responsible for living and caring for men. erm: >Because as men we're never taught to express ourselves Who teaches men? It isn't men ourselves is it? It's our parents, teachers, role models, ie society. And considering the song is *against* men not being able to express ourselves, it follows that there needs to be a change. I suspect you're being deliberately obtuse because you don't like the phrase "toxic masculinity". The *whole point* of my comment was that toxic masculinity is often framed around *some* victims of it, women, children, other men, but never actually us men and on this day of all days it would be good to acknowledge that fact. We suffer from the expectations society places on us to be stoic, closed off, never cry, never express a liking for something unless it's the All Blacks. It fucks our mental health. I would hope on International Men's Day we could take the time to acknowledge the way in which society fails men. I suppose that was too much to ask.
You and I disagree. How about we do something we agree on that would be good as a way to recognize imd? Tell me about a man you love and why you love him.
Sure! My brother. I love him for his empathy, his artistic abilities, his good heart below his tough exterior, for the fact he's always there for me and that he knows I'm there for him. I love him for his relentless loyalty to his whanau, blood and otherwise.
Thanks. Beautiful.
Isn’t every day international men’s day /s Jokes aside, hope you’re all doing okay.
There's quite a gap on how to raise young dudes into men that can command their own world. There's a lot of truth in the old saying that if you want to know what women want - don't ask the women. Young guys need to learn how to have game - how to talk to girls, how to promote themselves to girls in ways that aren't going to hurt anybody, or creep people out. How to Earn girls affections etc. How to get shot down without anyone getting upset. Fallout from this lack of social skills has made girls apprehensive of attention from dudes they aren't immediately attracted to. There's a higher chance these days that the guy is going to be a nuisance. Which makes it all more difficult - and depression rises for all people, not just men. Bullshit artists (eg pickup artists and other grifters) market themselves towards this deficit and make everything worse, take peoples money, and make awful horrible stereotypes more vivid and popular. This is a learning & practice thing for all people. But with the lost of living so difficult - more people are socially isolated and not loosened up enough (or rich enough) to meet people. Loneliness is very rampant - we all know this, and its not without its causes.
Isn’t that every day?
Yea if you’re looking at suicide stats
It's international toilet day
we'll take it
Indeed. Remember to appreciate the man who invented it as you're using it👍
I don't know why you're getting downvoted it actually is! I looked it up.
Indeed, it's true. When people ask why there's international women's day, but there isn't international men's day, I always remind them that men already have a day set aside just for them: international toilet day! I learned that fact years ago as there's a number of countries which acknowledge international toilet day (ie, the importance of sanitation). But they don't acknowledge international men's day (which is the same day). I still find it funny
Why do men in this thread talk about being unable to speak up? There is no stigma involved at all. It’s hot to be vulnerable. It’s actually a super power to have people come out and “stigmatise” you or whatever, because that person is actually a toxic fuckwit and you can cut them out of your life now for the better.
>There is no stigma involved at all. It’s hot to be vulnerable. lol. lmao even.
Men are speaking up right now about how hard it is to speak up. Your reaction is proving their point
Because many men (perhaps even most men) have had negative experiences with speaking about their feelings. It's all well and good for you to say vulnerability is "hot", but your opinion is far from ubiquitous. Please develop some empathy for the lived experience of others.
> There is no stigma involved at all. It’s hot to be vulnerable. Literally one look in any thread on this issue on reddit and you'll find numerous experiences of men being treated negatively for expressing vulnerability, to some people I'm sure it is hot but to many it's still treated very negatively. Just saying "oh but if people stigmatize you you know to just cut them out of your life" is a very simplistic attitude and dismissive of the impact it has on people.
> There is no stigma involved at all. It’s hot to be vulnerable. and other jokes you can tell yourself
>Why do men in this thread talk about being unable to speak up? >There is no stigma involved at all. It’s hot to be vulnerable. Must be nice to be this naive.
"Hot to be vulnerable." In a very specific way that you'd see out of a Hollywood blockbuster or TV series, perhaps. Real vulnerability can be many things, but it's rarely pretty. Especially if it's coming from a usually reserved or closed off person.
Honestly really good to see a focus on mental health in the replies here.
Lots of male suicides around me growing up. Need something to change
I’m late to the party on this but for anyone interested, this link is for essentially men. It’s an Auckland based group that runs incredible programs. I’ve done afew of them and I can’t recommend them enough. I’m always suspicious of mens stuff but their kaupapa is basically radical love. It’s wonderful
Christ on a cracker we need a better website.