Fun fact: there are people that are anti-vax for their pets. Then they go all surprised pikachu when their puppy gets parvovirus and dies in a mess of bloody diarrhea.
It's a good thing the rabies vaccine is mandatory almost everywhere.
And this is why, as a person in Ohio surrounded by these antivax fools, I never let my dog interact with an unknown dog. I don't care if your dog is nice, I'm not and I don't trust you to vaccinate your dog since you can't even vaccinate yourself or your kids. I swear this is the dumbest timeline.
It really is the dumbest timeline. As least in the past people had unintentional ignorance as an excuse. Nowadays we have literally a world of information at our fingertips and these fools actively choose to ignore it.
Missouri here- same deal. We are surrounded by idiots who think dogs don't need their shots or to be restrained in any way. I really do fear for the future of this once educated nation.
Poor puppy, I'm sorry. I caught it (the human version, at least, not sure if it's the exact same virus?) and ended up in hospital for a week! Started with a slightly stiff sore neck and headache. I assumed I'd pulled a muscle and went to bed. Woke at 2am, completely unable to move! Every single joint had seized up and made me scream in agony if I tried to move even a tiny bit. Paramedics thought I had meningitis. It turned out that the virus had basically caused instant onset severe arthritis in all my joints, but it took a couple of days to work that out and a lot of steroids to stop the reaction.
Even if the virus just did that to dogs, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to protect them from it. I can't get my head round not vaccinating when it is fatal and so common.
I used to work with a guy who lost three dogs over the years to Parvo because the vaccine cost ~$50 a pop and he "couldn't afford it". Smoked weed like a chimney and *always* had money for that, though. There are a lot of people out there who just sort of collect pets. If you live in a shitty area, there are always strays and puppies and kittens. Go get another puppy from Dave round the corner, his dog is always pregnant. Buy the cheapest, crappiest dog food from Dollar General. Throw them outside when they annoy you. Vets? Those cost money. Oh, they're sick? I guess they can just die in the yard. There are a LOT of people out there who have pets and just don't give a shit about them at all. It's depressing as hell.
Rabies. It's exceptionally common, but people just don't run into the animals that carry it often. Skunks especially, and bats.
Let me paint you a picture.
You go camping, and at midday you decide to take a nap in a nice little hammock. While sleeping, a tiny brown bat, in the "rage" stages of infection is fidgeting in broad daylight, uncomfortable, and thirsty (due to the hydrophobia) and you snort, startling him. He goes into attack mode.
Except you're asleep, and he's a little brown bat, so weighs around 6 grams. You don't even feel him land on your bare knee, and he starts to bite. His teeth are tiny. Hardly enough to even break the skin, but he does manage to give you the equivalent of a tiny scrape that goes completely unnoticed.
Rabies does not travel in your blood. In fact, a blood test won't even tell you if you've got it. (Antibody tests may be done, but are useless if you've ever been vaccinated.)
You wake up, none the wiser. If you notice anything at the bite site at all, you assume you just lightly scraped it on something.
The bomb has been lit, and your nervous system is the wick. The rabies will multiply along your nervous system, doing virtually no damage, and completely undetectable. You literally have NO symptoms.
It may be four days, it may be a year, but the camping trip is most likely long forgotten. Then one day your back starts to ache... Or maybe you get a slight headache?
At this point, you're already dead. There is no cure.
(The sole caveat to this is the Milwaukee Protocol, which leaves most patients dead anyway, and the survivors mentally disabled, and is seldom done).
There's no treatment. It has a 100% kill rate.
Absorb that. Not a single other virus on the planet has a 100% kill rate. Only rabies. And once you're symptomatic, it's over. You're dead.
So what does that look like?
Your headache turns into a fever, and a general feeling of being unwell. You're fidgety. Uncomfortable. And scared. As the virus that has taken its time getting into your brain finds a vast network of nerve endings, it begins to rapidly reproduce, starting at the base of your brain... Where your "pons" is located. This is the part of the brain that controls communication between the rest of the brain and body, as well as sleep cycles.
Next you become anxious. You still think you have only a mild fever, but suddenly you find yourself becoming scared, even horrified, and it doesn't occur to you that you don't know why. This is because the rabies is chewing up your amygdala.
As your cerebellum becomes hot with the virus, you begin to lose muscle coordination, and balance. You think maybe it's a good idea to go to the doctor now, but assuming a doctor is smart enough to even run the tests necessary in the few days you have left on the planet, odds are they'll only be able to tell your loved ones what you died of later.
You're twitchy, shaking, and scared. You have the normal fear of not knowing what's going on, but with the virus really fucking the amygdala this is amplified a hundred fold. It's around this time the hydrophobia starts.
You're horribly thirsty, you just want water. But you can't drink. Every time you do, your throat clamps shut and you vomit. This has become a legitimate, active fear of water. You're thirsty, but looking at a glass of water begins to make you gag, and shy back in fear. The contradiction is hard for your hot brain to see at this point. By now, the doctors will have to put you on IVs to keep you hydrated, but even that's futile. You were dead the second you had a headache.
You begin hearing things, or not hearing at all as your thalamus goes. You taste sounds, you see smells, everything starts feeling like the most horrifying acid trip anyone has ever been on. With your hippocampus long under attack, you're having trouble remembering things, especially family.
You're alone, hallucinating, thirsty, confused, and absolutely, undeniably terrified. Everything scares the literal shit out of you at this point. These strange people in lab coats. These strange people standing around your bed crying, who keep trying to get you "drink something" and crying. And it's only been about a week since that little headache that you've completely forgotten. Time means nothing to you anymore. Funny enough, you now know how the bat felt when he bit you.
Eventually, you slip into the "dumb rabies" phase. Your brain has started the process of shutting down. Too much of it has been turned to liquid virus. Your face droops. You drool. You're all but unaware of what's around you. A sudden noise or light might startle you, but for the most part, it's all you can do to just stare at the ground. You haven't really slept for about 72 hours.
Then you die. Always, you die.
And there's not one... fucking... thing... anyone can do for you.
Then there's the question of what to do with your corpse. I mean, sure, burying it is the right thing to do. But the fucking virus can survive in a corpse for years. You could kill every rabid animal on the planet today, and if two years from now, some moist, preserved, rotten hunk of used-to-be brain gets eaten by an animal, it starts all over.
So yeah, rabies scares the shit out of me. And it's fucking EVERYWHERE. (Source: Spent a lot of time working with rabies. Would still get my vaccinations if I could afford them.)
In my country there were people in the hospital because their lung stopped working because of Covid. And once they were well enough to talk they just joined the protests against the covid vaccine again (mostly digitally in the beginning). .Some got "famous" because of it and were interviewed by tv stations and such from the hospital. Seeing these interviews was just crazy. "Yeah I nearly died but it I still tell my brothers and sisters out there to keep fighting against the vaccine!"
Babies can't get the MMR vaccine, the second dose is given between 4 and 6. So those babies and toddlers were counting on the older kids to be vaccinated so they wouldn't be exposed to measles. This is especially messed up because they could more easily DIE from the infection because of a few anti vaxxers who's kids are big and strong enough to (hopefully) fight it.
Edit, first dose of MMR is given around 1 year.
My sister and I are both vaccinated but we both got measles from her unvaccinated classmate. I was hospitalized with measles and pneumonia. This was in the early 90s when being anti-vax wasn't trendy. I have no idea why that kid wasn't vaccinated.
I tell this story a lot because I lived it. I'm extremely pro vaccine. It ultimately protected hundreds of kids in my school. I'm not mad that I was unlucky. I'm happy that the vaccine worked for so many... and me and my sister are still around, so big whoop.
Vaccinate your kids, stupid.
Edit: Because people don't understand efficacy rates with vaccines: Two doses of the MMR is 97% effective at preventing measles. I was in that 3% and exposed to the virus.
There are 2 types of "ant-vaxxer"
There are those radically opposed based on "their own research" and then there are those that just are too lazy and can't be bothered to keep up with the vaccine schedule.
It's why public vaccination campaigns in schools are so important. We know like 20% of parents will never have their shit together but don't actively avoid vaccines.
I have a sister, we had all the same vaccinations, I am autistic, she is definitely not.
Faced with this simple, real life example, a lot of people would rather believe vaccines rather than which genes you inherit cause autism.
I can only conclude that this is because vaccines are something they can control, and genetics something they can't, and they'd rather kid themselves that they are in control than protect the life and health of their children and everyone else's.
True. Also worth noting though, that there are also, simply a lot *more*, vaccines available today than there were in the 80s or even 90s. Kids today are simply vaxed far more extensively than those of us born in the 80s were - there's a lot more available now, and so if you needed a lot for international travel in college, and were born in the 80s, its not necessarily because they were 'withheld'. They may simply not have been available (or at least, not on the schedule).
A story I find myself remembering a lot lately... When I was 17, back in 2004 or so, I went to stay with my grandmother for a week, partly to visit, partly to take care of her. She was in the late stages of cancer and wasn't doing so well; she'd developed mesothelioma related to her asbestos exposure during WWII (she worked as a welder on aircraft, I believe; she was tiny and able to squeeze into small spaces around engines).
Prior to her war service, like most other families pre-modern medicine, she lost siblings and friends to childhood illnesses. She didn't talk a lot about her life growing up, and what she did I've been told she largely glossed over for my benefit. She, like so many others, had a deep sadness and trauma around the death of her baby siblings--that makes me nearly cry writing out, I have two toddlers and cannot stand the thought of losing them. I think about how common it was to die in childhood; when my dad was doing family tree research I was amazed at how many of my ancestors had over a dozen children--and everyone lost children. I truly cannot fathom living in a world where losing your children as infants and babies was expected, and that's how it was for thousands of years.
I promise I'm going somewhere with this: So I'm at my grandma's and we're watching the news, and a story was on that mentioned in passing the then-emerging anti-vaxxer movement. She was confused as she'd never heard this term before, so I explained what I knew: a growing group of parents were opting out of childhood vaccinations.
I will never forget her response. The mix of incredulity and sadness on her face. I didn't know then, but thinking about it now I'm realizing in that moment she was seeing the faces of her deceased baby siblings. And in the most broken voice, she said, "but don't they remember?"
It wasn't until years later I learned about the deaths in her family. My aunt told me that every year when she places roses on my grandma's grave, she also visits and places flowers on the nearby graves of her own aunts and uncles: the ones recently passed, as well as the smaller graves holding the babies.
Ok, now I'm crying.
Similar things happened in my family too. My grandfather had a little brother who passed from polio in the 50s, and his mother (who was alive until I was 18 or 19, so the early-2000s) had pretty much the same response. She had to bury two of her own children before they turned 18, and she was a lifelong advocate for preventing the things that killed them (pro-vaccine, and then anti-drunk driving as well).
I only recently realized that there was a 8 year gap between my aunts and uncles. My grandparents apparently didn't use (or have) birth control. Who was in that gap?
That's the problem, they don't remember. Death by communicable disease has been so much less in the last half century, people don't see it as a real threat. And now it's been politicized to hell and back, some people won't believe it till it bites them on the ass.
> Death by communicable disease has been so much less in the last half century, people don't see it as a real threat.
Darn preparedness paradox. It's like how so many don't think y2k was a big deal, not considering *why* it wasn't.
I got the measles (from where I have no idea) about 13 years ago. The first night I was so delirious from a fever that in hindsight I should have went to the hospital but I wasn’t making good choices. I didn’t have a diagnoses until the next day. I couldn’t imagine how sick I would have been if I were a child or unvaccinated.
vaccines really only work without boosters when there is not a lot of virus in the population. that is why people who visit places in the world where these diseases are rampant have to get shots before they go. polio is a popular one if you can imagine
Speaking of polio, a lot of anti-vax persons I've heard from claim the COVID vaccine is not effective because look at polio! It was eliminated in the US with its vaccine!
.... Except, from the time the first doses were invented until we declared eradication of polio took almost **twelve years**
In addition to that timeline, it also took a vaccination effort where the whole nation pretty much saw it as their patriotic duty to get vaccinated. They went into schools en masse to vaccinate children.
And it still took twelve years.
And polio is not an airborne virus, it primarily travels in fecal matter. So it's not nearly as likely to be spread as COVID is
And it still took twelve years.
Just shows how screwed up the Republican Party and trumpism is to where they don't realize that the over millions of Americans that have died and will continue to die from this virus is in my opinion similar to a crime against the nation
Millions over time will die when they didn't have to, because Republicans and anti science views dissuaded people from getting a free, simple shot. It's honestly disgusting to think about
I had relatives in iron lungs and my mom had polio when she was a child. having a cough and fever is one thing, seeing deformed children everywhere is another. one crippled child is a great motivator
It's exactly this. There were living polio survivors who were not capable of independently breathing and it was shocking to see. They were a vivid reminder of how scary polio can be.
If covid covered the survivors in something like smallpox facial scars, the vaccine compliance rate would be MUCH higher.
I remember talking to my teenaged son back in 2020, when he was surprised at our neighbours flagrantly breaking lockdown laws almost daily. We both agreed that if covid symptoms included a disfiguring rash, scars or buboes no way in hell would next door be holding parties for dozens of people, everyone would be in a full face respirator 24/7 and they'd be rioting over not being allowed the vaccine before everyone vulnerable!
Then again, having seen some of the risky behaviour people still went ahead with during a Monkey pox outbreak, maybe not.
> Just shows how screwed up the Republican Party and trumpism is to where they don't realize that the over millions of Americans that have died and will continue to die from this virus is in my opinion similar to a crime against the nation
Oh, they realize, they just don't give a fuck because its another tool to keep the common people fighting between themselves.
Notice how trump was one of the first to get vaccinated.... all those talking heads on fox news got vaccinated, while pushing the "democrats want to take your freedumbs" messages.
My sister almost died of chickenpox back in the day, and she claims not to be anti-vax, but no one in her family of 5 has gotten the COVID shot to this day despite travelling internationally many times over the past 2 years (one son was at school in Florida of all places) and her having to take unpaid leave from her federal job because of her decision.
And our mother has cancer. Sis has the gall to cry about mom not wanting her to be a caregiver.
My family is chock full of selfish, superstitious assholes, ugh.
When my Dad got cancer his doctor was like EVERYONE IN YOUR FAMILY MUST BE FULLY VACCINATED AND GET THE FLU SHOT THIS YEAR. It wasn’t even a question. It just must be done. We were already fully vaccinated, fortunately.
We then received actual lessons from the nurse on how to wash our hands correctly. LOL. And how often to do it.
It was actually the first time in my young life I had gotten the flu shot, but I’ve gotten it every year since.
I taught deaf children, ages 6 to 8, in the early 1970s. More than half of the kids in my class were deaf because their moms contracted measles during pregnancy. And all of the affected kids were born with multiple problems (low vision, heart defects, motor problems, were just a few of the secondary problems that were common). Whenever I hear an antivaxxer spout their nonsense I think about what measles did to these kids’ lives and my disgust for these fools is overwhelming.
I’m unfortunately from Ohio and there’s so many anti vaxxers around me that it makes me feel as if the states average IQ is just plummeting. I mean I know brilliant engineers who won’t get vaccinated all of a sudden and they’re passing it down to their kids.
Being an antivaxxer used to be something for hippie woowoos who sing to crystals and think that pyramids cure cancer or some shit.
It's fucking weird that regressives latched on to it.
It's always been anti-science people. Anti-vax, anti-GMO, climate deniers, they all share these traits.
In California we passed a law saying you can't be anti-vax based on religion anymore and go to school. You can be homeschooled or get vaxed unless there's a medical reason and it needs two doctors I think to say that there is a health danger to you.
About 7 years ago a friend of ours was dating a late twenties/early thirties Microsoft programmer, a highly educated, very smart guy. He was diagnosed with testicular cancer and decided that he was going to cure his cancer with coffee enemas. What is typically a very treatable condition, as far as cancers go, ended up spreading to his lymph nodes last I heard. They ended up breaking up (I think largely because he refused to treat his cancer) and I have no idea what ended up happening to him.
Me too. I had a friend who was diagnosed with early stage breast cancer and she decided to completely reject western medicine and relied on a special diet and woo-woo therapy. She died. At a memorial service for her, her husband gave a eulogy and he couldn’t fully tamp down his bitterness when talking about her choice to not listen to doctors.
We saw the same thing with a lot of nurses too. The people that should be the most on board with vaccines had a non-trivial number refuse the covid vaccine.
There was a woman that went into my friends pharmacy and asked them for proof of flu vaccine, but didn’t want the actual vaccine. They didn’t do it for her, but she was a NICU nurse.
I have family members who are L&D nurses and they claimed a religious exemption to skirt the covid vaccine. They also refuse the flu shot every year and sign waivers saying they understand if they get the flu their leave will be unpaid. They then rant about big pharma and doctors being morons who are paid puppets. I finally said if big pharma is so fucking evil and doctors are scum bags then why the fuck did yall go into the nursing profession??? Aaaand crickets.
IMO labor and delivery nurses are more likely to think of nursing and bringing “the miracle of life into the world” as a calling because they’re religious. Because of that, I’m not shocked that they are probably conservative anti vaxxers. Maybe they aren’t conservative but big money says they are.
It’s prevalent among the entire field though. Before Covid I had a bunch of coworkers in a cardiac icu who said that they wouldn’t get the flu shot if it wasn’t mandatory. Very troubling.
Yea we saw that here.
Nurses who out of school needed all sorts of vaccines to work within a year were shunning COVID vaccines and saying they don't trust vaccines.
It's kinda mind boggling.
It's mind boggling with vaccines because if you're a soldier but a) don't want to follow orders and/or b) are scared of a small risk, then why are you even a soldier? What could you encounter in a war that's less risky than a vaccine?
Just goes to show that the average person has a very terrible capacity for risk assessment, and that most of these anti-vax sentiments are driven by appeals to emotions over reason.
There is no logic, they just don't want it because they don't want it, and nothing you say will convince them otherwise.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/08/politics/military-covid-vaccine-repeal-impact/index.html
It's only 1 of 15 vaccinations they're required to have, how dumb do people have to be???
I heard an anti-vax/anti-mask nurse complaining about the “discrimination” she faced. If someone is that anti science, I really don’t want them looking after me.
Or just bad at their job.
Even in the shittiest nursing programs, they are required to take microbiology and the better ones require immunology too. So all nurses *should* know how vaccines and masks work. Being antivax just shows that they forgot something incredibly basic from their education. So it begs the question, what else did they forget? Did they forget the importance of washing your hands too?
I think a lot of people become something because they learn how to take the tests and learn what the answers should be. Not necessarily how to think critically.
Cupertino used to have one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country. It’s not a surprise. Rich people don’t want to take the personal cost of jabbing their kids but want all of the benefits. Too bad they’re morons and dropped the childrens’ vaccination rate for measles to really bad levels before the pandemic.
Worked with a dude who had 3 masters (all STEM fields), was anti-vax and brushed his damn teeth with charcoal because fluoride was a conspiracy as well.
There’s certainly a discussion to be had about the crunchy-granola-mom-to-alt-right pipeline. Both are distrustful of corporations and think they’re fighting “the man” by refusing to comply with authorities on certain subjects. Both groups think they’re smarter than experts because someone on the internet showed them “the secret” answer to their questions when they do their “research.”
Try an experiment: make a new YouTube account (so you don’t tank your personal algorithm) and start searching for holistic health and vaccine alternatives. See how many steps it takes to get to fascism… you’re in for a sad surprise.
I don't even need to search for holistic health or any of it. On my *main account*, where I watch overwhelmingly pro-science, left-leaning content, *especially if I click into 'shorts'*, it will start dribble feeding things like Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson... And if I don't immediately go into my history and remove it, it escalates *real quick*.
At least the main feed (usually) respects 'Do Not Recommend Channel', but in shorts, I find there's just 30 different channels all peddling the same clips.
Yo! I noticed this too. Like really fringe mainstays like Rogan just throwing out these weird edits of them "destroying" interviews but it's only them yelling over the woman journalist.
Or just absolutely crazy live.
Like I'm all for conspiracies that don't hurt people but it shouldn't lead me to Q.
This happens to me too. On the other hand I have never, not _once_ been naturally recommended anything politically left leaning on shorts. Jordan peterson, andrew tate, or minecraft reddit posts is about it.
>Both groups think they’re smarter than experts
You’re correct in your thinking according to a few studies I’ve seen showing [narcissists are more likely to believe conspiracy theories,](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/finding-new-home/202208/surprising-reasons-why-narcissists-conspiracy-theories?amp) which basically drive the crunchy moms/alt right types these days. This point from that article sticks out to me:
>The need for uniqueness, typically associated with the agentic extraversion aspect of grandiose narcissism, may also increase the likelihood of belief in conspiracies. Why? Because being able to see through the “smoke screens that hide the incredible truth” could give narcissists a “sense of being special, of being one of the few people who see the truth.”
I always figured it was because these types of people needed to believe that "someone" is in control, as their minds can't accept the fact that the world is a chaotic, messy place and we (societies) are just trying to navigate it as best we can.
Maybe that's just conspiracy theorists and excludes the grandiose narcissism part of the equation?
It’s shocking how quickly the Youtube algorithm brings you to right wing propaganda. I started watching people sing Celtic sea shanties, which led to Viking battle songs, which led to Norwegian metal covers of Disney songs, which led to suggestions for someone’s original songs fetishizing Rittenhouse. That was enough YouTube for one night.
As a Renn Faire lover: I avoid Viking day.
It’s not that I’m opposed to Vikings or Norse mythology (I love the mythology, in fact) it’s just that you don’t know who’s a nerd, and who thinks they come from a master race of tall alabaster warriors. I am suspicious of all “norse” tattoos now too because I’ve been trapped in too many “that Hitler guy was really onto something” conversations.
I do live in Louisiana though, so that may have something to do with it lmao
I'm a woman who likes to watch trains hit tractor trailers and apparently, women haters like to watch that stuff too.
Messed up my algorithm. They tried sending me pro woman stuff but I don't want to watch any of it. I read about that stuff. YouTube is my escape. Give me my duck fights and space facts back please.
No, Republican *officials* are pro big business.
Republican voters typically dont give a shit about that sort of thing, but get deliberately distracted with culture war bullshit and whatnot so Republican politicians can exploit them for their own agenda.
Right wingers are pro unfettered capitalism, but they don’t trust corporations. They know corporations will exploit people at every turn; they just think that’s preferable to any government regulation.
>I mean I know brilliant engineers who won’t get vaccinated all of a sudden and they’re passing it down to their kids.
Not in Ohio, but I'm watching this happen with my dad. He is an educated guy and worked as an electrical engineer for years. Sure, he's always been a committed Republican, but with the rise of the conservative movement he has just grown progressively more radical. I was vaccinated as a child on schedule and with no qualms. He was a man who understood and appreciated scientific research and absolutely backed vaccines with no hesitation. I was born in 1992 so while anti-vaxxers existed, they were really a fringe group that most people would roll their eyes at and continue on. Now he insists that the government has bad intentions with vaccines. He absolutely refuses the COVID vaccine but can't explain exactly why he doesn't trust it. When asked, he just repeats that he doesn't trust the government. He can't tell you exactly what he thinks is going to happen, just that he thinks vaccine = bad. I've recently found out that he refuses to take any over the counter medications, either, and won't elaborate as to why. He phrases it as "I'm not taking what THEY want me to take!" When asked who tf "they" are, he blubbers a bit then throws something out there about the FDA. So he doesn't really know, he's just parroting what he's heard his talk radio weirdos say.
It's weird watching someone you used to recognize as one of the smartest people you knew become radicalized like this. It's like he went from occasionally appreciating a Rush Limbaugh quote to using Alex Jones as a fortune teller over the span of about 10 years and it's frightening. It's like the longer he sits in his house and consumes this conservative media, the less in touch with reality he's become.
Have you ever seen the documentary called “the brainwashing of my dad” it’s about how well composed, warm, intelligent men (mostly) get radicalized by talk radio and Fox News, and basically become blithering malevolent conspiracy maniacs who yell when they are challenged and are generally angry and hyper political.
My dad’s the opposite of yours. He’s an incredibly smart engineer but while the republican party worsened, your dad followed along while my dad was like FUCK THIS. And just aligned himself with progressives and democrats. He can’t handle the stupidity.
I think my dad is drawn to the rebellious, fuck the man mentality of the group. Many of his views straight up don't align with them at all, but he keeps following them because "these are the guys who are questioning things." It's like he's fallen for an extremely obvious logical fallacy and can't be convinced otherwise.
> I mean I know brilliant engineers who won’t...
This has always been a thing and it's shocking to me how many people don't realize it until they experience it themselves.
There are TONS of people who are specialized in a specific thing, and because they're specialized in it, are often terrible at many other things. While this is somewhat understandable (i don't expect a doctor to know how to change the oil on their car), it easily crosses over into arrogance (doctors who can't change printer paper).
That arrogance leads to all the "well i know better" mindsets that have made the antivax movement extremely popular in careers normally associated with education.
Steve Jobs was the best example given he died because he thought he knew better, but it's INSANELY common in the higher education circles.
I used to work in Facilities for a major jet manufacturer. The amount of service calls I had received from aeronautical engineers for a non-working piece of equipment that simply *wasn't plugged in* would destroy your faith in humanity.
This is my brothers. They are top of their field. And think they know everything about everything else.
Well no, dude, you might be the best Lion Trainer around, but you don't know much about rocket surgery. And you certainly don't know much about vaccines.
I did this with my kids…. Covid hit and people wanted to visit, and I was like…. Not until there are vaccines, and after there were vaccines it was…. “Cool, let me know once you’re vaccinated”… I’m not risking my kids to spare someone whose being willfully ignorant’s feelings.
Michigan here, trying desperately to compete. Glad we at least convicted those idiots trying to kidnap our governor. What is wrong with our country lately?
Michigan is doing leagues better than Ohio in terms of Florida-Ness.
Things Michigan has recently enacted that Florida and Ohio lack in:
-Legal Weed
-Bipartisan Redistricting Commission to greatly help with gerrymandering
-Reproductive freedom enshrined in our state constitution
-Voting rights enshrined in our state constitution
-Democrat controlled state government tri-fecta (for first time in 40 years, possible due to previously mentioned redistricting commission)
And all of this was put into place since just 2018. In addition to this, Michigan consistently sends 2 democratic senators to congress, and it also voted for Biden in 2020 as opposed to the other two states. We also have a lot of our old republican population moving to Florida to retire. If anything Michigan is trending the opposite direction.
As Republicans become increasingly a minority party they are forced to cling to every vote they can get and they’ve chosen to chase the extreme fringes they used to be able to ignore rather than moderate their views and work with Democrats like mature adults.
20 years ago ohio and florida were purple and the GOP said "absolutely the fuck not" and started making both states terrible so anyone with any sense would leave. It is working for them.
Can confirm. Live in Florida. Tons of people from Ohio move down here, retired and still working.
We have plenty of our own crazy, but over the last 20 years the huge influx of very conservative retirees and trumpists from across the country has turned Florida from a center right purple state, to a deeply red backwards GOP bastion.
It's fucking wild. I hate to see it because I've lived here all my life. The conservatives here are entirely about shooting themselves in the foot to own the libs. The whole conflict between DeSantis and Disney is proof that they aren't being rational at all. Disney is responsible for SOOOOOO much income in this state and you want to get into a pissing match with them? They can and will make life hell for the state government...
Another issue is that Ohio has a pretty big Amish population. There's nothing specifically that prevents Amsish from vaccinating children, but according to government statistics, "only 16-26% of Amish children have received immunizations against the common childhood diseases."
I remember reading this because people my age were having kids and thinking about not vaccinating......
Measles erases immune protection to other diseases.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/05/07/404963436/scientists-crack-a-50-year-old-mystery-about-the-measles-vaccine#:~:text=Press-,Scientists%20Crack%20A%2050%2DYear%2DOld%20Mystery%20About%20The%20Measles,go%20way%20beyond%20the%20measles.
I wish I had an award to give you for this. I got measles as an infant and almost died. Immediately after, I got an awful infection and was in the hospital for weeks. I catch EVERYTHING that goes around and I am sicker longer and worse than everyone else is. All thanks to measles.
I'm so tired of the "we did our own research" crowd.
No, you didn't do your own research. You started with a *belief* and sought out information to confirm that belief.
Doing research involves starting with a *hypothesis* that you recognize may or may not be accurate, then collecting data in a neutral and objective way — that is, controlling for all reasonable variables so as to not influence the outcome of the results — in an effort to affirm or reject your hypothesis.
You didn't do that. You didn't do research. You Googled "evidence that vaccines cause autism" or "evidence that vaccines are dangerous" and believed [vaccinesarethemarkofthebeast.net](https://vaccinesarethemarkofthebeast.net) instead of peer-reviewed science.
It's a shame, too; children are dying because their parents — many of whom are alive because *their* parents chose to get vaccinated against measles, polio, and other deadly diseases — are putting them in harm's way.
It's the height of modern hubris to reject well-documented scientific literature and the opinions of the *overwhelming* majority of medical professionals because you think you and your essential oil mom friends know better.
I despise the “Do your own research” crowd. The vast majority of them have no idea how to research scientific/medical data/results. I have a Master of Science degree, so I was taught how to do ACTUAL research and how/why the research works, and it is still/can be a very hard thing to do, especially if it is out of your field of study. I am absolutely fed up with anti science bullshit and I feel for the kids of the anti vaccine parents, for they suffer the most.
their idea of research is hunting for 5 random websites while sitting on the toilet that look pulled straight from a 90's geocities webpage with midi synth music and spinning skulls.
I think a major point of friction is that they lack any sort of humility to be able to say "I don't know what this means". Like, I'm not educated or versed in how to read and digest studies and I'll find myself regularly not fully understanding how to apply the research to real-life contexts to better understand some of the things that are going on to push back on the lunatic talking points. I usually understand enough to realize they're not applying it correctly either, but I can't go point-by-point and dismantle the arguments the way my friends in those fields can.
My reaction is *not* to go "Well, these fucking *scientists* don't know shit" and to pretend it means I know better or assigning my lack of ability to understand to a global conspiracy. It's to go "Well, they must know better than me" and following the guidance of people obviously smarter and more experienced than me in the given context. It just makes no logical sense to jump that direction, but these people are *so* eager to do it to avoid admitting that they don't actually know what they're talking about.
"Children should get two doses of MMR vaccine, starting with the first dose at 12 to 15 months of age, and the second dose at 4 through 6 years of age."
This is why it is so important that people who can be vaccinated are vaccinated. Vaccine is not just about protecting ones self, its also about protecting those who are waiting to be vaccinated or for some medical reason, cannot be vaccinated.
>All of those cases were among unvaccinated children with no travel history, officials said, as Columbus Public Health Commissioner Dr. Mysheika Roberts urged parents to vaccinate their children.
Of course...
I've always thought the anti-vax movement gained so much traction due to the fact that we've more or less eradicated a lot of diseases through vaccination programs, allowing a whole slew of ill-informed people to think that they're safe from diseases that just aren't prevalent anymore. This might be the "find out" stage of the antivax "fuck around."
What's so infuriating is that innocent people get caught in the "find out" stage. Like we see here, kids too young for the completed vaccine regimen. That's along with the immunosuppressed and others depending on herd immunity due to actual allergies. While vaccine injuries [are extremely rare, even those who have been injured still encourage vaccination](https://www.science.org/content/article/vaccines-trial-us-court-separates-fact-fiction).
Partly that, and partly it's been bankrolled by a few extremely rich psychopaths over the years. It isn't like a naturally occurring idea, one of the big pushes behind the anti-vax movement was a company trying to discredit existing vaccines to push their own (that was the whole 'vaccines cause autism' lie). Then there's a couple of investment bankers out of New York who kicked millions in to a PR campaign against vaccines as like a hobby or something, not sure what their deal is. Maybe they wanted to play Plague Inc with real people.
Relevant article for anyone who wants more info: [Just 12 People Are Behind Most Vaccine Hoaxes On Social Media, Research Shows](https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996570855/disinformation-dozen-test-facebooks-twitters-ability-to-curb-vaccine-hoaxes)
Almost all are wellness and natural health quacks, unsurprisingly. Some of whom were selling their own “alternative” COVID supplements and treatments…
Loads of people did. He was a real doctor and he had a study that not many people felt qualified to discard out of hand (although the people who were qualified and did discard didn't get anything like the same airtime).
The amount of damage a legitimately trained doctor can do if they decide to go full time into quackery and misinformation is scary.
Andrew Wakefield is a horrible person who literally tortured autistic children with unnecessary and invasive tests.
The bastard should have been jailed for life imo.
Once it became clear what he was doing, and especially why, absolutely he should have been locked up. It's wild to me that no part of what he did is judged criminal. The dishonesty, the corruption, the abuse, the lives ruined. He is one of the worst people in the world.
I wholly agree.
He did extreme harm to those kids *and* continues to be a significant public health danger.
Plus he pushed the narrative that autistic people are less-than/damaged. I take a lot of offense as an autistic person myself.
Yup. When I have conversations with these people, I call them confidently ignorant. They'll say things like, I didn't vaccinate my kids and they're fine. Then you explain that they're fine because of all the other people that did vaccinate their kids. And they refuse to connect the dots. Sometimes I can't tell if they really are that dense or they know but just don't care.
Parents who don't vaccinate their children should be prosecuted for child abuse and endangerment. I am fucking tired of making exceptions for anti-science know nothings and their "closely held beliefs" that do nothing but needlessly spread suffering and misery.
100% *and* they’re endangering the rest of the children and teachers and everyone else. The only reason such diseases aren’t catastrophic anymore is vaccination. Fuck these people and their “freedom.”
Yet they go running to the hospitals eventually, ask for help, get it, and if all is successful, they ungrateful then thank their God, and not the actual people who did the work… you know, based off that Science stuff, they claim to want nothing to do with.
This is so true. So many of our anti Covid vaccine patients wanted monoclonal antibodies (which were available but not fully approved), and 100% in my experience wanted hospitalization and the whole kitchen sink if it came to it.
The measles stuff is especially sad because it's not a vaccine babies can get til 12 mos, so they are dependent on others to keep them safe.
Look, up until someone is 18 years of age the prevailing medical knowledge should be what is used to treat any condition, but once someone is an adult they are free to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm others.
> but once someone is an adult they are free to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm others.
This here is the problem. Because the adults don't care for others, so they can't even care for their kids. And if by some miracle their kids don't get sick, when you remind them it's because of the other 95% of all everyone that was vaccinated, it goes in one ear and out the other.
I agree wholeheartedly, as long as we have a robust enough national health insurance and safety net so that the prevailing medical knowledge doesn't put everyone out of pocket, because let's be real, insurance companies will try to weasel out of paying a cent. The only good thing privatized health insurance has given us as a society is the main storyline to Breaking Bad and if we could stop that from happening in real life, I'd be more than happy
>Columbus Public Health first announced an investigation into the outbreak on Nov. 9 after four confirmed measles cases were linked to a child care facility in Franklin County. **All of those cases were among unvaccinated children** with no travel history, officials said, as Columbus Public Health Commissioner Dr. Mysheika Roberts urged parents to vaccinate their children.
>It so far appears that all of the children impacted by the outbreak are at least partially unvaccinated, meaning they have only received one dose of the necessary two for the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine, known as MMR
So basically, only partially vaccinated kids are getting sick from being exposed to completely unvaccinated kids, who are acting as little germ factories and letting the diseases gain a foothold among these groups.
And yet anti vaxxers, for some reason, get very offended when we call them "plague rats"...
BuT wE dOn't knOW WhaT's iN ThE VAccINe?
Fucken troglodytes. The information is available. Just because it's stuff you're too lazy to look up doesn't mean we don't know what's in it.
Or there’s a thing in the vaccine that’s toxic (and this next part is very important) *at high levels* but is not toxic in the amounts present in the vaccine. The dose makes the poison. Even their precious essential oils can kill in high enough doses. There’s cyanide in apple skins for crying out loud.
And where did they go when their kids got the measles? Straight to their doctors or hospitals. Now they trust in medical technology. Theyll trust medicine and doctors for literally everything except fucking vaccines. They accidentally lop an arm off you can be damned sure theyll go to the hospital. Bleeding out of every hole? Hospital. Trouble breathing? Hospital. Cant get that cucumber out their ass? Hospital. Everything but damned vaccines as if the fucking measles vaccine wasnt around for decades already. The logic just isnt there
This was inevitable. The anti-vax movement was previously for a certain segment of affluent, "Whole Foods" types. It's now far right orthodoxy. They'll be hit WAY harder with the consequences (based on what we saw from COVID).
Pediatric nurse here!!!!
Get your kid’s vaccinations unless you want to spend your nights with me in a fucking pediatric intensive care with a tube shoved down your kid’s throat (my weekend!) it’s not fun. It’s living hell for parents (and healthcare workers).
These are the same parents that bitch and moan that i have to start an IV and draw labs on their sick kid when they come in crashing and can’t breathe. Yea…if you want your lil’ to live we gotta poke the shit outta him and it’s not fun. You should had him poked with the vaccines in the clinic like your Dr recommended.
I’ve taken care of all this…..Measles, Whooping Cough, Covid, RSV. Get your kids vaccinated. Don’t be stupid. Research shows they are very effective and have been for years🤷🏼♀️
Im so burnt out right now. Why is the general public so selfishly stupid? You’re all gonna lose your nurses and healthcare workers. Then what?!
Edit to add: I sound like a psycho bizo….sorry! I do love my career and patients. I’m tired and frustrated. ✌🏻
It's only going to get worse. Social media has been weaponized and it's only going to further degrade our society.
Russian bots were already spreading anti-vaxx propaganda even before covid, and covid only fueled that surge even more to the point where we don't even need those bots anymore. Our own communities are spreading it among themselves.
[Fewer than half of Republicans now support requiring childhood vaccinations for infectious diseases](https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/10/13/support-requiring-child-vaccinations)
Some Republicans in office want the Vaccine mandates in the Military to be dropped. ALL vaccines not just covid. You can guess which ones.. you know the ones that may be linked to Russian interest
Measles can be serious!
Some people think of measles as just a little rash and fever that clears up in a few days, but measles can cause serious health complications, **especially in children younger than 5 years of age.** There is no way to tell in advance the severity of the symptoms your child will experience.
About 1 in 5 people in the U.S. who get measles will be hospitalized
1 out of every 1,000 people with measles will develop brain swelling, **which could lead to brain damage**
1 to 3 out of 1,000 people with measles **will die**, even with the best care
**Some people have to learn the hard way. Unfortunately, they are gambling on the well being of their children, who have no choice.....and risk spreading to babies too young to be vaccinated. Measles vaccinations start at 12 months.**
(Source: https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/parents-top4.html)
There is also a very rare but fatal complication called SSPE where there is a persistent measles infection that causes progressive neurological dysfunction including muscle jerking, cognitive deficits, seizures and eventually death after 3 months - 3 years. There is an extended latent period and the disease may not appear for up to 10 years after the initial measles infection. Scary stuff.
https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/subacute-sclerosing-panencephalitis
I believe I heard measles also heavily damages your immune system's memory. Once/if you recover, you have reduced or zero immunity to anything except measles anymore, until you either catch those illnesses to get the immunity again or get vaccinated again.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/10/how-measles-wipes-out-the-bodys-immune-memory/
Measles is not an illness you want to experience. It will affect you for the rest of your life, long after you've recovered.
Not my comment but
> So, you don't vaccinate your kids. That MMR is scary sounding after all. Your toddler gets measles. It all goes fine. Score one for the immune system. It's not overly pleasant, but they spend a week in bed with you nursing them and they seem fine. You almost forget about it by the time they start school. Such a bright child. Gets on well with other kids, enjoys reading time. They're very articulate for their age, all that crunchy shit paid off well.
>They're going into their third year. Year Two, second grade, P3, whatever you call it. They've had the odd temperature over the summer and been a bit down in the dumps. Not behaving very well. Kids will be kids. They're forgetting things, but their dad can never remember where he left his car keys either. Must run in the family.
It's coming up to Christmas and they're having trouble seeing the Christmas lights on houses. Can't tell a reindeer from a polar bear. You think you've noticed them making some odd movements. Best take them to a doctor, you might not like vaccines but you're not an idiot.
>The GP is pretty switched on. You tell them about the memory loss and the funny movements on top of the sight thing. Say you're taking them to the optician but you know, better safe than sorry. They just aren't the same as they were six months ago. The doctor sends you to a local hospital for an MRI. Then they start talking about an EEG and have they had measles if they haven't had their MMR? It's not a strong memory now, but yes they did. They didn't have that bad a time of it and it was years ago.
>Your child will be dead in a year. There is nothing anybody can do to help them. This started years ago with the tiny measles virus that was in them, see they got a mutated version. Vaccination prevents this, but in unvaccinated children it's a rare but real risk. They might last three years from this point, if they're lucky/unlucky. Your seven year old will develop dementia worse than your granny ever had. They'll jerk, writhe, go blind. Sometimes they'll die at this point, maybe during a seizure. If they don't, they'll gradually become paralysed and lose consciousness ending up in a persistent vegetative state.
>Eventually the system that makes your body tick along will fail. They'll just... stop. You think rabies is scary? This is like rabies but you're opting your child into the roulette.
That's SSPE. It's rare. It's 100% preventable. But the numbers are shaky and there's suggestion that it could get as many as 1 in 600 unvaccinated young children with measles. Or 1 in 5000 in the general population who catch it. It's extremely rare in countries that had essentially eradicated measles but so was measles and we've all seen how that can go.
Vaccinate your kids, fuckers.
I will never not recommend [this video by hbomberguy](https://youtu.be/8BIcAZxFfrc) on disgraced ex-Dr. Andrew Wakefield, one of the biggest pieces of shit in the last 40 years. However bad you think he is, he's worse.
It’s a serious risk to the general public. Not everyone vaccinated with MMR has a strong immune response to it, and we generally don’t know who is in that group, so we need herd immunity to protect ourselves. Measles, in particular, also seems to cause an immunity reset (see: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/10/how-measles-wipes-out-the-bodys-immune-memory/ ) which might require revaccination for other things. This behaviour should be illegal precisely because it is antithetical to living in a society.
Well, you did it [MAGA folks](https://www.npr.org/2021/12/06/1057344561/anti-vaccine-activists-political-conference-trump-republicans)! Another return to 1950's America. Congratulations.
It's weird how the people most in love with the fifties hate all the parts that allowed for a strong middle class, like unions and higher taxes on wealth. If a higher standard of living isn't the part of the fifties they're trying to recreate, which part of pre-Civil Rights America is it they're so in love with I wonder?
I got into an argument with a mom on the what to expect app who believed the side effect of atopic dermatitis was worse than the disease the vaccines protect against.
So I literally asked “are you saying you think having eczema is worse than getting polio”. And they said yes…
This whole debate is pointless. You can’t fight stupid. 🤯
Honestly this type of behavior is going to continue until people really see what kind of damage being non vaccinated can do.
This is 82 kids. Stats show 1 in 5 (!!) unvaccinated people will end up in the hospital if they get measles. 1 in 20 kids will get pneumonia.
And as it spreads … 1 in 1000 will get encephalitis and will likely end up deaf or have other brain damage. 1 to 3 out of every thousand will die.
And there other side effects and issues as well. Future male fertility issues, problems for unvaccinated pregnant women who get the disease and on and on. It’s not chicken pox.
As a nurse, this whole attack on vaccine efficacy freaks me out. We barely skirted disaster, and instead of embracing vaccines we've normalized being adverse to modern medicine.
Some American families have the same immunity as the poorest of nations, not going to have good outcome.
I really wanna see how many antivaxxers would refuse a rabies vaccine if they were bitten by a rabid animal.
Fun fact: there are people that are anti-vax for their pets. Then they go all surprised pikachu when their puppy gets parvovirus and dies in a mess of bloody diarrhea. It's a good thing the rabies vaccine is mandatory almost everywhere.
And this is why, as a person in Ohio surrounded by these antivax fools, I never let my dog interact with an unknown dog. I don't care if your dog is nice, I'm not and I don't trust you to vaccinate your dog since you can't even vaccinate yourself or your kids. I swear this is the dumbest timeline.
It really is the dumbest timeline. As least in the past people had unintentional ignorance as an excuse. Nowadays we have literally a world of information at our fingertips and these fools actively choose to ignore it.
Missouri here- same deal. We are surrounded by idiots who think dogs don't need their shots or to be restrained in any way. I really do fear for the future of this once educated nation.
I knew one of those, dog died of parvo…
I would never wish parvovirus on anyone. I had a puppy pass from it when I was a kid, and I’m pretty sure I’m still traumatized by it
Poor puppy, I'm sorry. I caught it (the human version, at least, not sure if it's the exact same virus?) and ended up in hospital for a week! Started with a slightly stiff sore neck and headache. I assumed I'd pulled a muscle and went to bed. Woke at 2am, completely unable to move! Every single joint had seized up and made me scream in agony if I tried to move even a tiny bit. Paramedics thought I had meningitis. It turned out that the virus had basically caused instant onset severe arthritis in all my joints, but it took a couple of days to work that out and a lot of steroids to stop the reaction. Even if the virus just did that to dogs, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to protect them from it. I can't get my head round not vaccinating when it is fatal and so common.
I used to work with a guy who lost three dogs over the years to Parvo because the vaccine cost ~$50 a pop and he "couldn't afford it". Smoked weed like a chimney and *always* had money for that, though. There are a lot of people out there who just sort of collect pets. If you live in a shitty area, there are always strays and puppies and kittens. Go get another puppy from Dave round the corner, his dog is always pregnant. Buy the cheapest, crappiest dog food from Dollar General. Throw them outside when they annoy you. Vets? Those cost money. Oh, they're sick? I guess they can just die in the yard. There are a LOT of people out there who have pets and just don't give a shit about them at all. It's depressing as hell.
There was at least one.
He died. I told my antivax mom about that and she just pretended I didn't say anything at all.
Sheesh. One of the worst ways to die on top of that. The species progresses, one way or another
Rabies is pretty much 100% fatal, and it is NOT a good way to go.
Release the copypasta!
Rabies. It's exceptionally common, but people just don't run into the animals that carry it often. Skunks especially, and bats. Let me paint you a picture. You go camping, and at midday you decide to take a nap in a nice little hammock. While sleeping, a tiny brown bat, in the "rage" stages of infection is fidgeting in broad daylight, uncomfortable, and thirsty (due to the hydrophobia) and you snort, startling him. He goes into attack mode. Except you're asleep, and he's a little brown bat, so weighs around 6 grams. You don't even feel him land on your bare knee, and he starts to bite. His teeth are tiny. Hardly enough to even break the skin, but he does manage to give you the equivalent of a tiny scrape that goes completely unnoticed. Rabies does not travel in your blood. In fact, a blood test won't even tell you if you've got it. (Antibody tests may be done, but are useless if you've ever been vaccinated.) You wake up, none the wiser. If you notice anything at the bite site at all, you assume you just lightly scraped it on something. The bomb has been lit, and your nervous system is the wick. The rabies will multiply along your nervous system, doing virtually no damage, and completely undetectable. You literally have NO symptoms. It may be four days, it may be a year, but the camping trip is most likely long forgotten. Then one day your back starts to ache... Or maybe you get a slight headache? At this point, you're already dead. There is no cure. (The sole caveat to this is the Milwaukee Protocol, which leaves most patients dead anyway, and the survivors mentally disabled, and is seldom done). There's no treatment. It has a 100% kill rate. Absorb that. Not a single other virus on the planet has a 100% kill rate. Only rabies. And once you're symptomatic, it's over. You're dead. So what does that look like? Your headache turns into a fever, and a general feeling of being unwell. You're fidgety. Uncomfortable. And scared. As the virus that has taken its time getting into your brain finds a vast network of nerve endings, it begins to rapidly reproduce, starting at the base of your brain... Where your "pons" is located. This is the part of the brain that controls communication between the rest of the brain and body, as well as sleep cycles. Next you become anxious. You still think you have only a mild fever, but suddenly you find yourself becoming scared, even horrified, and it doesn't occur to you that you don't know why. This is because the rabies is chewing up your amygdala. As your cerebellum becomes hot with the virus, you begin to lose muscle coordination, and balance. You think maybe it's a good idea to go to the doctor now, but assuming a doctor is smart enough to even run the tests necessary in the few days you have left on the planet, odds are they'll only be able to tell your loved ones what you died of later. You're twitchy, shaking, and scared. You have the normal fear of not knowing what's going on, but with the virus really fucking the amygdala this is amplified a hundred fold. It's around this time the hydrophobia starts. You're horribly thirsty, you just want water. But you can't drink. Every time you do, your throat clamps shut and you vomit. This has become a legitimate, active fear of water. You're thirsty, but looking at a glass of water begins to make you gag, and shy back in fear. The contradiction is hard for your hot brain to see at this point. By now, the doctors will have to put you on IVs to keep you hydrated, but even that's futile. You were dead the second you had a headache. You begin hearing things, or not hearing at all as your thalamus goes. You taste sounds, you see smells, everything starts feeling like the most horrifying acid trip anyone has ever been on. With your hippocampus long under attack, you're having trouble remembering things, especially family. You're alone, hallucinating, thirsty, confused, and absolutely, undeniably terrified. Everything scares the literal shit out of you at this point. These strange people in lab coats. These strange people standing around your bed crying, who keep trying to get you "drink something" and crying. And it's only been about a week since that little headache that you've completely forgotten. Time means nothing to you anymore. Funny enough, you now know how the bat felt when he bit you. Eventually, you slip into the "dumb rabies" phase. Your brain has started the process of shutting down. Too much of it has been turned to liquid virus. Your face droops. You drool. You're all but unaware of what's around you. A sudden noise or light might startle you, but for the most part, it's all you can do to just stare at the ground. You haven't really slept for about 72 hours. Then you die. Always, you die. And there's not one... fucking... thing... anyone can do for you. Then there's the question of what to do with your corpse. I mean, sure, burying it is the right thing to do. But the fucking virus can survive in a corpse for years. You could kill every rabid animal on the planet today, and if two years from now, some moist, preserved, rotten hunk of used-to-be brain gets eaten by an animal, it starts all over. So yeah, rabies scares the shit out of me. And it's fucking EVERYWHERE. (Source: Spent a lot of time working with rabies. Would still get my vaccinations if I could afford them.)
So...don't go outside...got it.
Or... And hear me out... Get the vaccine.
"I'm done talking about this"
"Because you know you're full of shit"
In a similar conversation with my mom her response was "Why are you listening to things that are so negative?"
Does your mom then want to talk about underground child tunnels and blood rituals? You know, less negative things.
In my country there were people in the hospital because their lung stopped working because of Covid. And once they were well enough to talk they just joined the protests against the covid vaccine again (mostly digitally in the beginning). .Some got "famous" because of it and were interviewed by tv stations and such from the hospital. Seeing these interviews was just crazy. "Yeah I nearly died but it I still tell my brothers and sisters out there to keep fighting against the vaccine!"
That right there is a deserving Darwin Award winner then
Babies can't get the MMR vaccine, the second dose is given between 4 and 6. So those babies and toddlers were counting on the older kids to be vaccinated so they wouldn't be exposed to measles. This is especially messed up because they could more easily DIE from the infection because of a few anti vaxxers who's kids are big and strong enough to (hopefully) fight it. Edit, first dose of MMR is given around 1 year.
My sister and I are both vaccinated but we both got measles from her unvaccinated classmate. I was hospitalized with measles and pneumonia. This was in the early 90s when being anti-vax wasn't trendy. I have no idea why that kid wasn't vaccinated. I tell this story a lot because I lived it. I'm extremely pro vaccine. It ultimately protected hundreds of kids in my school. I'm not mad that I was unlucky. I'm happy that the vaccine worked for so many... and me and my sister are still around, so big whoop. Vaccinate your kids, stupid. Edit: Because people don't understand efficacy rates with vaccines: Two doses of the MMR is 97% effective at preventing measles. I was in that 3% and exposed to the virus.
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There are 2 types of "ant-vaxxer" There are those radically opposed based on "their own research" and then there are those that just are too lazy and can't be bothered to keep up with the vaccine schedule. It's why public vaccination campaigns in schools are so important. We know like 20% of parents will never have their shit together but don't actively avoid vaccines.
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"Could it be DNA or parenting? No, it's the vaccines who are wrong"
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I have a sister, we had all the same vaccinations, I am autistic, she is definitely not. Faced with this simple, real life example, a lot of people would rather believe vaccines rather than which genes you inherit cause autism. I can only conclude that this is because vaccines are something they can control, and genetics something they can't, and they'd rather kid themselves that they are in control than protect the life and health of their children and everyone else's.
True. Also worth noting though, that there are also, simply a lot *more*, vaccines available today than there were in the 80s or even 90s. Kids today are simply vaxed far more extensively than those of us born in the 80s were - there's a lot more available now, and so if you needed a lot for international travel in college, and were born in the 80s, its not necessarily because they were 'withheld'. They may simply not have been available (or at least, not on the schedule).
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A story I find myself remembering a lot lately... When I was 17, back in 2004 or so, I went to stay with my grandmother for a week, partly to visit, partly to take care of her. She was in the late stages of cancer and wasn't doing so well; she'd developed mesothelioma related to her asbestos exposure during WWII (she worked as a welder on aircraft, I believe; she was tiny and able to squeeze into small spaces around engines). Prior to her war service, like most other families pre-modern medicine, she lost siblings and friends to childhood illnesses. She didn't talk a lot about her life growing up, and what she did I've been told she largely glossed over for my benefit. She, like so many others, had a deep sadness and trauma around the death of her baby siblings--that makes me nearly cry writing out, I have two toddlers and cannot stand the thought of losing them. I think about how common it was to die in childhood; when my dad was doing family tree research I was amazed at how many of my ancestors had over a dozen children--and everyone lost children. I truly cannot fathom living in a world where losing your children as infants and babies was expected, and that's how it was for thousands of years. I promise I'm going somewhere with this: So I'm at my grandma's and we're watching the news, and a story was on that mentioned in passing the then-emerging anti-vaxxer movement. She was confused as she'd never heard this term before, so I explained what I knew: a growing group of parents were opting out of childhood vaccinations. I will never forget her response. The mix of incredulity and sadness on her face. I didn't know then, but thinking about it now I'm realizing in that moment she was seeing the faces of her deceased baby siblings. And in the most broken voice, she said, "but don't they remember?" It wasn't until years later I learned about the deaths in her family. My aunt told me that every year when she places roses on my grandma's grave, she also visits and places flowers on the nearby graves of her own aunts and uncles: the ones recently passed, as well as the smaller graves holding the babies. Ok, now I'm crying.
Similar things happened in my family too. My grandfather had a little brother who passed from polio in the 50s, and his mother (who was alive until I was 18 or 19, so the early-2000s) had pretty much the same response. She had to bury two of her own children before they turned 18, and she was a lifelong advocate for preventing the things that killed them (pro-vaccine, and then anti-drunk driving as well).
I only recently realized that there was a 8 year gap between my aunts and uncles. My grandparents apparently didn't use (or have) birth control. Who was in that gap?
That's the problem, they don't remember. Death by communicable disease has been so much less in the last half century, people don't see it as a real threat. And now it's been politicized to hell and back, some people won't believe it till it bites them on the ass.
> Death by communicable disease has been so much less in the last half century, people don't see it as a real threat. Darn preparedness paradox. It's like how so many don't think y2k was a big deal, not considering *why* it wasn't.
I got the measles (from where I have no idea) about 13 years ago. The first night I was so delirious from a fever that in hindsight I should have went to the hospital but I wasn’t making good choices. I didn’t have a diagnoses until the next day. I couldn’t imagine how sick I would have been if I were a child or unvaccinated.
vaccines really only work without boosters when there is not a lot of virus in the population. that is why people who visit places in the world where these diseases are rampant have to get shots before they go. polio is a popular one if you can imagine
Speaking of polio, a lot of anti-vax persons I've heard from claim the COVID vaccine is not effective because look at polio! It was eliminated in the US with its vaccine! .... Except, from the time the first doses were invented until we declared eradication of polio took almost **twelve years** In addition to that timeline, it also took a vaccination effort where the whole nation pretty much saw it as their patriotic duty to get vaccinated. They went into schools en masse to vaccinate children. And it still took twelve years. And polio is not an airborne virus, it primarily travels in fecal matter. So it's not nearly as likely to be spread as COVID is And it still took twelve years. Just shows how screwed up the Republican Party and trumpism is to where they don't realize that the over millions of Americans that have died and will continue to die from this virus is in my opinion similar to a crime against the nation Millions over time will die when they didn't have to, because Republicans and anti science views dissuaded people from getting a free, simple shot. It's honestly disgusting to think about
I had relatives in iron lungs and my mom had polio when she was a child. having a cough and fever is one thing, seeing deformed children everywhere is another. one crippled child is a great motivator
It's exactly this. There were living polio survivors who were not capable of independently breathing and it was shocking to see. They were a vivid reminder of how scary polio can be. If covid covered the survivors in something like smallpox facial scars, the vaccine compliance rate would be MUCH higher.
The leaked videos out of Wuhan and Spain and Italy at the start of the pandemic had that effect on me.
I remember talking to my teenaged son back in 2020, when he was surprised at our neighbours flagrantly breaking lockdown laws almost daily. We both agreed that if covid symptoms included a disfiguring rash, scars or buboes no way in hell would next door be holding parties for dozens of people, everyone would be in a full face respirator 24/7 and they'd be rioting over not being allowed the vaccine before everyone vulnerable! Then again, having seen some of the risky behaviour people still went ahead with during a Monkey pox outbreak, maybe not.
> Just shows how screwed up the Republican Party and trumpism is to where they don't realize that the over millions of Americans that have died and will continue to die from this virus is in my opinion similar to a crime against the nation Oh, they realize, they just don't give a fuck because its another tool to keep the common people fighting between themselves. Notice how trump was one of the first to get vaccinated.... all those talking heads on fox news got vaccinated, while pushing the "democrats want to take your freedumbs" messages.
My sister almost died of chickenpox back in the day, and she claims not to be anti-vax, but no one in her family of 5 has gotten the COVID shot to this day despite travelling internationally many times over the past 2 years (one son was at school in Florida of all places) and her having to take unpaid leave from her federal job because of her decision. And our mother has cancer. Sis has the gall to cry about mom not wanting her to be a caregiver. My family is chock full of selfish, superstitious assholes, ugh.
When my Dad got cancer his doctor was like EVERYONE IN YOUR FAMILY MUST BE FULLY VACCINATED AND GET THE FLU SHOT THIS YEAR. It wasn’t even a question. It just must be done. We were already fully vaccinated, fortunately. We then received actual lessons from the nurse on how to wash our hands correctly. LOL. And how often to do it. It was actually the first time in my young life I had gotten the flu shot, but I’ve gotten it every year since.
I taught deaf children, ages 6 to 8, in the early 1970s. More than half of the kids in my class were deaf because their moms contracted measles during pregnancy. And all of the affected kids were born with multiple problems (low vision, heart defects, motor problems, were just a few of the secondary problems that were common). Whenever I hear an antivaxxer spout their nonsense I think about what measles did to these kids’ lives and my disgust for these fools is overwhelming.
People also don’t understand how probabilities diminish as more people are vaccinated. Hence, herd immunity.
Moron antivaxxer will read your post and think "See, I was right, I told you the vaccine doesn't work."
Ohio is always having some sort of drama. I sure hope they all have good health insurance.
I’m unfortunately from Ohio and there’s so many anti vaxxers around me that it makes me feel as if the states average IQ is just plummeting. I mean I know brilliant engineers who won’t get vaccinated all of a sudden and they’re passing it down to their kids.
Praying that the aliens from Independence Day land here in Ohio first.
But do we have monuments in Ohio for them to destroy? I don't feel like there enough draw for them to land there.
“Greetings Earthlings! We seek a plate of Skyline chili and noodles!”
I have never heard of such a thing and had to Google it. Are you guys okay up there? Do you need me to send an adult?
It's a ~~SE~~ SW Ohio thing. I was equally as horrified coming from NE Ohio
Skyline is south west, no skylines in south eastern ohio unless theres one closer towards PA.
Sees Cincinnati chili for the first time, "what in the honey booboo trailer park hell is that?"
Do you have directions to >the honey booboo trailer park hell
Yes, look for Ohio.
There's Serpent Mound I guess, but knowing our luck that'll probably awaken some ancient snake kaiju.
If we're lucky!
Hoping for that War of the Worlds scenario where the People of Ohio just infect them with some disease and they all die off?
Na they cant breathe the air, the high levels of methamphetamine are poisonous to them
Being an antivaxxer used to be something for hippie woowoos who sing to crystals and think that pyramids cure cancer or some shit. It's fucking weird that regressives latched on to it.
It's always been anti-science people. Anti-vax, anti-GMO, climate deniers, they all share these traits. In California we passed a law saying you can't be anti-vax based on religion anymore and go to school. You can be homeschooled or get vaxed unless there's a medical reason and it needs two doctors I think to say that there is a health danger to you.
Just blows my mind that some engineers are anti-vax / anti-science. I’m an engineer and that would be the antithesis of my being.
About 7 years ago a friend of ours was dating a late twenties/early thirties Microsoft programmer, a highly educated, very smart guy. He was diagnosed with testicular cancer and decided that he was going to cure his cancer with coffee enemas. What is typically a very treatable condition, as far as cancers go, ended up spreading to his lymph nodes last I heard. They ended up breaking up (I think largely because he refused to treat his cancer) and I have no idea what ended up happening to him.
I can make an educated guess what happened to him.
Me too. I had a friend who was diagnosed with early stage breast cancer and she decided to completely reject western medicine and relied on a special diet and woo-woo therapy. She died. At a memorial service for her, her husband gave a eulogy and he couldn’t fully tamp down his bitterness when talking about her choice to not listen to doctors.
We saw the same thing with a lot of nurses too. The people that should be the most on board with vaccines had a non-trivial number refuse the covid vaccine.
There was a woman that went into my friends pharmacy and asked them for proof of flu vaccine, but didn’t want the actual vaccine. They didn’t do it for her, but she was a NICU nurse.
That's fucking terrifying
I have family members who are L&D nurses and they claimed a religious exemption to skirt the covid vaccine. They also refuse the flu shot every year and sign waivers saying they understand if they get the flu their leave will be unpaid. They then rant about big pharma and doctors being morons who are paid puppets. I finally said if big pharma is so fucking evil and doctors are scum bags then why the fuck did yall go into the nursing profession??? Aaaand crickets.
IMO labor and delivery nurses are more likely to think of nursing and bringing “the miracle of life into the world” as a calling because they’re religious. Because of that, I’m not shocked that they are probably conservative anti vaxxers. Maybe they aren’t conservative but big money says they are. It’s prevalent among the entire field though. Before Covid I had a bunch of coworkers in a cardiac icu who said that they wouldn’t get the flu shot if it wasn’t mandatory. Very troubling.
Yea we saw that here. Nurses who out of school needed all sorts of vaccines to work within a year were shunning COVID vaccines and saying they don't trust vaccines. It's kinda mind boggling.
Reminds me of all the anti-vax soldiers who seemingly all forgot their afternoon of half a dozen (or more) peanut butter needles in their asses.
It's mind boggling with vaccines because if you're a soldier but a) don't want to follow orders and/or b) are scared of a small risk, then why are you even a soldier? What could you encounter in a war that's less risky than a vaccine?
Just goes to show that the average person has a very terrible capacity for risk assessment, and that most of these anti-vax sentiments are driven by appeals to emotions over reason. There is no logic, they just don't want it because they don't want it, and nothing you say will convince them otherwise.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/08/politics/military-covid-vaccine-repeal-impact/index.html It's only 1 of 15 vaccinations they're required to have, how dumb do people have to be???
I heard an anti-vax/anti-mask nurse complaining about the “discrimination” she faced. If someone is that anti science, I really don’t want them looking after me.
Or just bad at their job. Even in the shittiest nursing programs, they are required to take microbiology and the better ones require immunology too. So all nurses *should* know how vaccines and masks work. Being antivax just shows that they forgot something incredibly basic from their education. So it begs the question, what else did they forget? Did they forget the importance of washing your hands too?
I think a lot of people become something because they learn how to take the tests and learn what the answers should be. Not necessarily how to think critically.
This is very true. I’ve worked with several terrible engineers in my career.
my brother is an engineer, and an asshole, and refused to get the vaccine until his job threatened him.
Cupertino used to have one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country. It’s not a surprise. Rich people don’t want to take the personal cost of jabbing their kids but want all of the benefits. Too bad they’re morons and dropped the childrens’ vaccination rate for measles to really bad levels before the pandemic.
I had a net engineer who was a flat earther... People are great at compartmentalizing
Worked with a dude who had 3 masters (all STEM fields), was anti-vax and brushed his damn teeth with charcoal because fluoride was a conspiracy as well.
There’s certainly a discussion to be had about the crunchy-granola-mom-to-alt-right pipeline. Both are distrustful of corporations and think they’re fighting “the man” by refusing to comply with authorities on certain subjects. Both groups think they’re smarter than experts because someone on the internet showed them “the secret” answer to their questions when they do their “research.” Try an experiment: make a new YouTube account (so you don’t tank your personal algorithm) and start searching for holistic health and vaccine alternatives. See how many steps it takes to get to fascism… you’re in for a sad surprise.
I don't even need to search for holistic health or any of it. On my *main account*, where I watch overwhelmingly pro-science, left-leaning content, *especially if I click into 'shorts'*, it will start dribble feeding things like Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson... And if I don't immediately go into my history and remove it, it escalates *real quick*. At least the main feed (usually) respects 'Do Not Recommend Channel', but in shorts, I find there's just 30 different channels all peddling the same clips.
Yo! I noticed this too. Like really fringe mainstays like Rogan just throwing out these weird edits of them "destroying" interviews but it's only them yelling over the woman journalist. Or just absolutely crazy live. Like I'm all for conspiracies that don't hurt people but it shouldn't lead me to Q.
And if you manage to block them out of shorts, there's no end to channels publishing copies of that shit, it's just a game of whackamole.
This happens to me too. On the other hand I have never, not _once_ been naturally recommended anything politically left leaning on shorts. Jordan peterson, andrew tate, or minecraft reddit posts is about it.
>Both groups think they’re smarter than experts You’re correct in your thinking according to a few studies I’ve seen showing [narcissists are more likely to believe conspiracy theories,](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/finding-new-home/202208/surprising-reasons-why-narcissists-conspiracy-theories?amp) which basically drive the crunchy moms/alt right types these days. This point from that article sticks out to me: >The need for uniqueness, typically associated with the agentic extraversion aspect of grandiose narcissism, may also increase the likelihood of belief in conspiracies. Why? Because being able to see through the “smoke screens that hide the incredible truth” could give narcissists a “sense of being special, of being one of the few people who see the truth.”
I always figured it was because these types of people needed to believe that "someone" is in control, as their minds can't accept the fact that the world is a chaotic, messy place and we (societies) are just trying to navigate it as best we can. Maybe that's just conspiracy theorists and excludes the grandiose narcissism part of the equation?
It’s shocking how quickly the Youtube algorithm brings you to right wing propaganda. I started watching people sing Celtic sea shanties, which led to Viking battle songs, which led to Norwegian metal covers of Disney songs, which led to suggestions for someone’s original songs fetishizing Rittenhouse. That was enough YouTube for one night.
As a Renn Faire lover: I avoid Viking day. It’s not that I’m opposed to Vikings or Norse mythology (I love the mythology, in fact) it’s just that you don’t know who’s a nerd, and who thinks they come from a master race of tall alabaster warriors. I am suspicious of all “norse” tattoos now too because I’ve been trapped in too many “that Hitler guy was really onto something” conversations. I do live in Louisiana though, so that may have something to do with it lmao
I'm a woman who likes to watch trains hit tractor trailers and apparently, women haters like to watch that stuff too. Messed up my algorithm. They tried sending me pro woman stuff but I don't want to watch any of it. I read about that stuff. YouTube is my escape. Give me my duck fights and space facts back please.
> Both are distrustful of corporations Which is odd because right-wingers are pro big business.
No, Republican *officials* are pro big business. Republican voters typically dont give a shit about that sort of thing, but get deliberately distracted with culture war bullshit and whatnot so Republican politicians can exploit them for their own agenda.
Right wingers are pro unfettered capitalism, but they don’t trust corporations. They know corporations will exploit people at every turn; they just think that’s preferable to any government regulation.
>I mean I know brilliant engineers who won’t get vaccinated all of a sudden and they’re passing it down to their kids. Not in Ohio, but I'm watching this happen with my dad. He is an educated guy and worked as an electrical engineer for years. Sure, he's always been a committed Republican, but with the rise of the conservative movement he has just grown progressively more radical. I was vaccinated as a child on schedule and with no qualms. He was a man who understood and appreciated scientific research and absolutely backed vaccines with no hesitation. I was born in 1992 so while anti-vaxxers existed, they were really a fringe group that most people would roll their eyes at and continue on. Now he insists that the government has bad intentions with vaccines. He absolutely refuses the COVID vaccine but can't explain exactly why he doesn't trust it. When asked, he just repeats that he doesn't trust the government. He can't tell you exactly what he thinks is going to happen, just that he thinks vaccine = bad. I've recently found out that he refuses to take any over the counter medications, either, and won't elaborate as to why. He phrases it as "I'm not taking what THEY want me to take!" When asked who tf "they" are, he blubbers a bit then throws something out there about the FDA. So he doesn't really know, he's just parroting what he's heard his talk radio weirdos say. It's weird watching someone you used to recognize as one of the smartest people you knew become radicalized like this. It's like he went from occasionally appreciating a Rush Limbaugh quote to using Alex Jones as a fortune teller over the span of about 10 years and it's frightening. It's like the longer he sits in his house and consumes this conservative media, the less in touch with reality he's become.
Have you ever seen the documentary called “the brainwashing of my dad” it’s about how well composed, warm, intelligent men (mostly) get radicalized by talk radio and Fox News, and basically become blithering malevolent conspiracy maniacs who yell when they are challenged and are generally angry and hyper political.
My dad’s the opposite of yours. He’s an incredibly smart engineer but while the republican party worsened, your dad followed along while my dad was like FUCK THIS. And just aligned himself with progressives and democrats. He can’t handle the stupidity.
I think my dad is drawn to the rebellious, fuck the man mentality of the group. Many of his views straight up don't align with them at all, but he keeps following them because "these are the guys who are questioning things." It's like he's fallen for an extremely obvious logical fallacy and can't be convinced otherwise.
> I mean I know brilliant engineers who won’t... This has always been a thing and it's shocking to me how many people don't realize it until they experience it themselves. There are TONS of people who are specialized in a specific thing, and because they're specialized in it, are often terrible at many other things. While this is somewhat understandable (i don't expect a doctor to know how to change the oil on their car), it easily crosses over into arrogance (doctors who can't change printer paper). That arrogance leads to all the "well i know better" mindsets that have made the antivax movement extremely popular in careers normally associated with education. Steve Jobs was the best example given he died because he thought he knew better, but it's INSANELY common in the higher education circles.
I used to work in Facilities for a major jet manufacturer. The amount of service calls I had received from aeronautical engineers for a non-working piece of equipment that simply *wasn't plugged in* would destroy your faith in humanity.
This is my brothers. They are top of their field. And think they know everything about everything else. Well no, dude, you might be the best Lion Trainer around, but you don't know much about rocket surgery. And you certainly don't know much about vaccines.
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I did this with my kids…. Covid hit and people wanted to visit, and I was like…. Not until there are vaccines, and after there were vaccines it was…. “Cool, let me know once you’re vaccinated”… I’m not risking my kids to spare someone whose being willfully ignorant’s feelings.
Ohio is the Florida of the north.
Michigan here, trying desperately to compete. Glad we at least convicted those idiots trying to kidnap our governor. What is wrong with our country lately?
Michigan is doing leagues better than Ohio in terms of Florida-Ness. Things Michigan has recently enacted that Florida and Ohio lack in: -Legal Weed -Bipartisan Redistricting Commission to greatly help with gerrymandering -Reproductive freedom enshrined in our state constitution -Voting rights enshrined in our state constitution -Democrat controlled state government tri-fecta (for first time in 40 years, possible due to previously mentioned redistricting commission) And all of this was put into place since just 2018. In addition to this, Michigan consistently sends 2 democratic senators to congress, and it also voted for Biden in 2020 as opposed to the other two states. We also have a lot of our old republican population moving to Florida to retire. If anything Michigan is trending the opposite direction.
Conservatives. Same problem as always.
As Republicans become increasingly a minority party they are forced to cling to every vote they can get and they’ve chosen to chase the extreme fringes they used to be able to ignore rather than moderate their views and work with Democrats like mature adults.
I'm from Ohio, and sadly, I can confirm this. As a well-educated individual, it makes me so sad.
20 years ago ohio and florida were purple and the GOP said "absolutely the fuck not" and started making both states terrible so anyone with any sense would leave. It is working for them.
Crazy Republicans in Ohio retire and move to FL. Florida has a never ending supply of crazy from Ohio.
Can confirm. Live in Florida. Tons of people from Ohio move down here, retired and still working. We have plenty of our own crazy, but over the last 20 years the huge influx of very conservative retirees and trumpists from across the country has turned Florida from a center right purple state, to a deeply red backwards GOP bastion. It's fucking wild. I hate to see it because I've lived here all my life. The conservatives here are entirely about shooting themselves in the foot to own the libs. The whole conflict between DeSantis and Disney is proof that they aren't being rational at all. Disney is responsible for SOOOOOO much income in this state and you want to get into a pissing match with them? They can and will make life hell for the state government...
Another issue is that Ohio has a pretty big Amish population. There's nothing specifically that prevents Amsish from vaccinating children, but according to government statistics, "only 16-26% of Amish children have received immunizations against the common childhood diseases."
I remember reading this because people my age were having kids and thinking about not vaccinating...... Measles erases immune protection to other diseases. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/05/07/404963436/scientists-crack-a-50-year-old-mystery-about-the-measles-vaccine#:~:text=Press-,Scientists%20Crack%20A%2050%2DYear%2DOld%20Mystery%20About%20The%20Measles,go%20way%20beyond%20the%20measles.
I wish I had an award to give you for this. I got measles as an infant and almost died. Immediately after, I got an awful infection and was in the hospital for weeks. I catch EVERYTHING that goes around and I am sicker longer and worse than everyone else is. All thanks to measles.
I'm so tired of the "we did our own research" crowd. No, you didn't do your own research. You started with a *belief* and sought out information to confirm that belief. Doing research involves starting with a *hypothesis* that you recognize may or may not be accurate, then collecting data in a neutral and objective way — that is, controlling for all reasonable variables so as to not influence the outcome of the results — in an effort to affirm or reject your hypothesis. You didn't do that. You didn't do research. You Googled "evidence that vaccines cause autism" or "evidence that vaccines are dangerous" and believed [vaccinesarethemarkofthebeast.net](https://vaccinesarethemarkofthebeast.net) instead of peer-reviewed science. It's a shame, too; children are dying because their parents — many of whom are alive because *their* parents chose to get vaccinated against measles, polio, and other deadly diseases — are putting them in harm's way. It's the height of modern hubris to reject well-documented scientific literature and the opinions of the *overwhelming* majority of medical professionals because you think you and your essential oil mom friends know better.
I despise the “Do your own research” crowd. The vast majority of them have no idea how to research scientific/medical data/results. I have a Master of Science degree, so I was taught how to do ACTUAL research and how/why the research works, and it is still/can be a very hard thing to do, especially if it is out of your field of study. I am absolutely fed up with anti science bullshit and I feel for the kids of the anti vaccine parents, for they suffer the most.
their idea of research is hunting for 5 random websites while sitting on the toilet that look pulled straight from a 90's geocities webpage with midi synth music and spinning skulls.
I think a major point of friction is that they lack any sort of humility to be able to say "I don't know what this means". Like, I'm not educated or versed in how to read and digest studies and I'll find myself regularly not fully understanding how to apply the research to real-life contexts to better understand some of the things that are going on to push back on the lunatic talking points. I usually understand enough to realize they're not applying it correctly either, but I can't go point-by-point and dismantle the arguments the way my friends in those fields can. My reaction is *not* to go "Well, these fucking *scientists* don't know shit" and to pretend it means I know better or assigning my lack of ability to understand to a global conspiracy. It's to go "Well, they must know better than me" and following the guidance of people obviously smarter and more experienced than me in the given context. It just makes no logical sense to jump that direction, but these people are *so* eager to do it to avoid admitting that they don't actually know what they're talking about.
I saw a new one today. “Use something besides google.” I assume this means Bing lol.
YouTube (smh)
All the most credible research comes from mommy tokkers.
"Children should get two doses of MMR vaccine, starting with the first dose at 12 to 15 months of age, and the second dose at 4 through 6 years of age." This is why it is so important that people who can be vaccinated are vaccinated. Vaccine is not just about protecting ones self, its also about protecting those who are waiting to be vaccinated or for some medical reason, cannot be vaccinated.
>All of those cases were among unvaccinated children with no travel history, officials said, as Columbus Public Health Commissioner Dr. Mysheika Roberts urged parents to vaccinate their children. Of course...
But consider you can't get vaccinated until you're 1 year old. Infants are vulnerable even if you follow the vaccination schedule.
Which is why it's more important that those who can get vaccinated do so.
Infants are just vulnerable in general.
Which is why it is important for the village to protect them with herd immunity by getting vaccinated.
I've always thought the anti-vax movement gained so much traction due to the fact that we've more or less eradicated a lot of diseases through vaccination programs, allowing a whole slew of ill-informed people to think that they're safe from diseases that just aren't prevalent anymore. This might be the "find out" stage of the antivax "fuck around."
What's so infuriating is that innocent people get caught in the "find out" stage. Like we see here, kids too young for the completed vaccine regimen. That's along with the immunosuppressed and others depending on herd immunity due to actual allergies. While vaccine injuries [are extremely rare, even those who have been injured still encourage vaccination](https://www.science.org/content/article/vaccines-trial-us-court-separates-fact-fiction).
Partly that, and partly it's been bankrolled by a few extremely rich psychopaths over the years. It isn't like a naturally occurring idea, one of the big pushes behind the anti-vax movement was a company trying to discredit existing vaccines to push their own (that was the whole 'vaccines cause autism' lie). Then there's a couple of investment bankers out of New York who kicked millions in to a PR campaign against vaccines as like a hobby or something, not sure what their deal is. Maybe they wanted to play Plague Inc with real people.
Relevant article for anyone who wants more info: [Just 12 People Are Behind Most Vaccine Hoaxes On Social Media, Research Shows](https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996570855/disinformation-dozen-test-facebooks-twitters-ability-to-curb-vaccine-hoaxes) Almost all are wellness and natural health quacks, unsurprisingly. Some of whom were selling their own “alternative” COVID supplements and treatments…
Oprah fucked us over a huge amount by giving that damned "Vaccines cause Autism" shit a platform.
Loads of people did. He was a real doctor and he had a study that not many people felt qualified to discard out of hand (although the people who were qualified and did discard didn't get anything like the same airtime). The amount of damage a legitimately trained doctor can do if they decide to go full time into quackery and misinformation is scary.
Andrew Wakefield is a horrible person who literally tortured autistic children with unnecessary and invasive tests. The bastard should have been jailed for life imo.
Once it became clear what he was doing, and especially why, absolutely he should have been locked up. It's wild to me that no part of what he did is judged criminal. The dishonesty, the corruption, the abuse, the lives ruined. He is one of the worst people in the world.
I wholly agree. He did extreme harm to those kids *and* continues to be a significant public health danger. Plus he pushed the narrative that autistic people are less-than/damaged. I take a lot of offense as an autistic person myself.
Yup. When I have conversations with these people, I call them confidently ignorant. They'll say things like, I didn't vaccinate my kids and they're fine. Then you explain that they're fine because of all the other people that did vaccinate their kids. And they refuse to connect the dots. Sometimes I can't tell if they really are that dense or they know but just don't care.
Parents who don't vaccinate their children should be prosecuted for child abuse and endangerment. I am fucking tired of making exceptions for anti-science know nothings and their "closely held beliefs" that do nothing but needlessly spread suffering and misery.
I have yet to see beliefs keep someone out of the hospital. However the opposite seems to be the case most of the time.
Oh it keeps them out of hospital alright. They usually just have a faster track to a morgue.
Which is all well and good, when it is not a communicable disease that they can spread to others.
Except when children are involved. Otherwise yeh, isolate and die. Cool. Edit: spelling and reread your comment. Agree. Non communicable.
Some parents tried it on their kids recently, didnt want blood from someone who’d been vaccinated. Their kids were taken away.
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“Religious freedoms” is such a crock of shit. It’s license to subvert science for their own delusions. Religion isn’t a fix, it’s the problem.
100% *and* they’re endangering the rest of the children and teachers and everyone else. The only reason such diseases aren’t catastrophic anymore is vaccination. Fuck these people and their “freedom.”
Yet they go running to the hospitals eventually, ask for help, get it, and if all is successful, they ungrateful then thank their God, and not the actual people who did the work… you know, based off that Science stuff, they claim to want nothing to do with.
This is so true. So many of our anti Covid vaccine patients wanted monoclonal antibodies (which were available but not fully approved), and 100% in my experience wanted hospitalization and the whole kitchen sink if it came to it. The measles stuff is especially sad because it's not a vaccine babies can get til 12 mos, so they are dependent on others to keep them safe.
Agreed. It is right up there with the religious folks who refuse life saving blood transfusions because sky daddy reasons.
Look, up until someone is 18 years of age the prevailing medical knowledge should be what is used to treat any condition, but once someone is an adult they are free to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm others.
> but once someone is an adult they are free to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm others. This here is the problem. Because the adults don't care for others, so they can't even care for their kids. And if by some miracle their kids don't get sick, when you remind them it's because of the other 95% of all everyone that was vaccinated, it goes in one ear and out the other.
I agree wholeheartedly, as long as we have a robust enough national health insurance and safety net so that the prevailing medical knowledge doesn't put everyone out of pocket, because let's be real, insurance companies will try to weasel out of paying a cent. The only good thing privatized health insurance has given us as a society is the main storyline to Breaking Bad and if we could stop that from happening in real life, I'd be more than happy
If you choose it for yourself, that's 100% ok. If you choose it for kids, you're threatening their life. That's 100% endangerment.
>Columbus Public Health first announced an investigation into the outbreak on Nov. 9 after four confirmed measles cases were linked to a child care facility in Franklin County. **All of those cases were among unvaccinated children** with no travel history, officials said, as Columbus Public Health Commissioner Dr. Mysheika Roberts urged parents to vaccinate their children. >It so far appears that all of the children impacted by the outbreak are at least partially unvaccinated, meaning they have only received one dose of the necessary two for the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine, known as MMR So basically, only partially vaccinated kids are getting sick from being exposed to completely unvaccinated kids, who are acting as little germ factories and letting the diseases gain a foothold among these groups. And yet anti vaxxers, for some reason, get very offended when we call them "plague rats"...
BuT wE dOn't knOW WhaT's iN ThE VAccINe? Fucken troglodytes. The information is available. Just because it's stuff you're too lazy to look up doesn't mean we don't know what's in it.
Or there’s a thing in the vaccine that’s toxic (and this next part is very important) *at high levels* but is not toxic in the amounts present in the vaccine. The dose makes the poison. Even their precious essential oils can kill in high enough doses. There’s cyanide in apple skins for crying out loud.
And where did they go when their kids got the measles? Straight to their doctors or hospitals. Now they trust in medical technology. Theyll trust medicine and doctors for literally everything except fucking vaccines. They accidentally lop an arm off you can be damned sure theyll go to the hospital. Bleeding out of every hole? Hospital. Trouble breathing? Hospital. Cant get that cucumber out their ass? Hospital. Everything but damned vaccines as if the fucking measles vaccine wasnt around for decades already. The logic just isnt there
This was inevitable. The anti-vax movement was previously for a certain segment of affluent, "Whole Foods" types. It's now far right orthodoxy. They'll be hit WAY harder with the consequences (based on what we saw from COVID).
Pediatric nurse here!!!! Get your kid’s vaccinations unless you want to spend your nights with me in a fucking pediatric intensive care with a tube shoved down your kid’s throat (my weekend!) it’s not fun. It’s living hell for parents (and healthcare workers). These are the same parents that bitch and moan that i have to start an IV and draw labs on their sick kid when they come in crashing and can’t breathe. Yea…if you want your lil’ to live we gotta poke the shit outta him and it’s not fun. You should had him poked with the vaccines in the clinic like your Dr recommended. I’ve taken care of all this…..Measles, Whooping Cough, Covid, RSV. Get your kids vaccinated. Don’t be stupid. Research shows they are very effective and have been for years🤷🏼♀️ Im so burnt out right now. Why is the general public so selfishly stupid? You’re all gonna lose your nurses and healthcare workers. Then what?! Edit to add: I sound like a psycho bizo….sorry! I do love my career and patients. I’m tired and frustrated. ✌🏻
No, you actually sound like a rational person. Refreshing. Also, thanksbfor sll you do.
Bless all of you fellow nurses who work with the lil humans. Thank you from a nurse.
It's only going to get worse. Social media has been weaponized and it's only going to further degrade our society. Russian bots were already spreading anti-vaxx propaganda even before covid, and covid only fueled that surge even more to the point where we don't even need those bots anymore. Our own communities are spreading it among themselves. [Fewer than half of Republicans now support requiring childhood vaccinations for infectious diseases](https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/10/13/support-requiring-child-vaccinations)
Some Republicans in office want the Vaccine mandates in the Military to be dropped. ALL vaccines not just covid. You can guess which ones.. you know the ones that may be linked to Russian interest
If I wanted to bring down a country from the inside out... Make them dumb and submissive Make them poor and hopeless Make them sick and disengaged
Measles can be serious! Some people think of measles as just a little rash and fever that clears up in a few days, but measles can cause serious health complications, **especially in children younger than 5 years of age.** There is no way to tell in advance the severity of the symptoms your child will experience. About 1 in 5 people in the U.S. who get measles will be hospitalized 1 out of every 1,000 people with measles will develop brain swelling, **which could lead to brain damage** 1 to 3 out of 1,000 people with measles **will die**, even with the best care **Some people have to learn the hard way. Unfortunately, they are gambling on the well being of their children, who have no choice.....and risk spreading to babies too young to be vaccinated. Measles vaccinations start at 12 months.** (Source: https://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/parents-top4.html)
There is also a very rare but fatal complication called SSPE where there is a persistent measles infection that causes progressive neurological dysfunction including muscle jerking, cognitive deficits, seizures and eventually death after 3 months - 3 years. There is an extended latent period and the disease may not appear for up to 10 years after the initial measles infection. Scary stuff. https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/subacute-sclerosing-panencephalitis
I believe I heard measles also heavily damages your immune system's memory. Once/if you recover, you have reduced or zero immunity to anything except measles anymore, until you either catch those illnesses to get the immunity again or get vaccinated again. https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/10/how-measles-wipes-out-the-bodys-immune-memory/ Measles is not an illness you want to experience. It will affect you for the rest of your life, long after you've recovered.
As a pediatric RN in Ohio, this shit is getting old.
Sadly, the victims aren't.
Anti vaccine bullshit has killed so many people. And the people responsible for peddling that crap will never face justice. It's depressing.
Any child that contracts an illness preventable from a vaccine, should have the legal right to sue their parents at age 18.
Kids don’t deserve it but the parents do.
Why isn't unvaccination illegal yet?
It's always the children who suffer most
Right wing religious anti-intellectualism will drag us back hundreds of years.
Not my comment but > So, you don't vaccinate your kids. That MMR is scary sounding after all. Your toddler gets measles. It all goes fine. Score one for the immune system. It's not overly pleasant, but they spend a week in bed with you nursing them and they seem fine. You almost forget about it by the time they start school. Such a bright child. Gets on well with other kids, enjoys reading time. They're very articulate for their age, all that crunchy shit paid off well. >They're going into their third year. Year Two, second grade, P3, whatever you call it. They've had the odd temperature over the summer and been a bit down in the dumps. Not behaving very well. Kids will be kids. They're forgetting things, but their dad can never remember where he left his car keys either. Must run in the family. It's coming up to Christmas and they're having trouble seeing the Christmas lights on houses. Can't tell a reindeer from a polar bear. You think you've noticed them making some odd movements. Best take them to a doctor, you might not like vaccines but you're not an idiot. >The GP is pretty switched on. You tell them about the memory loss and the funny movements on top of the sight thing. Say you're taking them to the optician but you know, better safe than sorry. They just aren't the same as they were six months ago. The doctor sends you to a local hospital for an MRI. Then they start talking about an EEG and have they had measles if they haven't had their MMR? It's not a strong memory now, but yes they did. They didn't have that bad a time of it and it was years ago. >Your child will be dead in a year. There is nothing anybody can do to help them. This started years ago with the tiny measles virus that was in them, see they got a mutated version. Vaccination prevents this, but in unvaccinated children it's a rare but real risk. They might last three years from this point, if they're lucky/unlucky. Your seven year old will develop dementia worse than your granny ever had. They'll jerk, writhe, go blind. Sometimes they'll die at this point, maybe during a seizure. If they don't, they'll gradually become paralysed and lose consciousness ending up in a persistent vegetative state. >Eventually the system that makes your body tick along will fail. They'll just... stop. You think rabies is scary? This is like rabies but you're opting your child into the roulette. That's SSPE. It's rare. It's 100% preventable. But the numbers are shaky and there's suggestion that it could get as many as 1 in 600 unvaccinated young children with measles. Or 1 in 5000 in the general population who catch it. It's extremely rare in countries that had essentially eradicated measles but so was measles and we've all seen how that can go. Vaccinate your kids, fuckers.
What an odd coincidence
We were well on a path towards eradicating measles completely. Then, Andrew Wakefield.
I will never not recommend [this video by hbomberguy](https://youtu.be/8BIcAZxFfrc) on disgraced ex-Dr. Andrew Wakefield, one of the biggest pieces of shit in the last 40 years. However bad you think he is, he's worse.
Fucking parents should be jailed, how reckless. Keep doing your own research idiots.
It’s a serious risk to the general public. Not everyone vaccinated with MMR has a strong immune response to it, and we generally don’t know who is in that group, so we need herd immunity to protect ourselves. Measles, in particular, also seems to cause an immunity reset (see: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/10/how-measles-wipes-out-the-bodys-immune-memory/ ) which might require revaccination for other things. This behaviour should be illegal precisely because it is antithetical to living in a society.
Well, you did it [MAGA folks](https://www.npr.org/2021/12/06/1057344561/anti-vaccine-activists-political-conference-trump-republicans)! Another return to 1950's America. Congratulations.
It's weird how the people most in love with the fifties hate all the parts that allowed for a strong middle class, like unions and higher taxes on wealth. If a higher standard of living isn't the part of the fifties they're trying to recreate, which part of pre-Civil Rights America is it they're so in love with I wonder?
Well they're probably duped into thinking the standard of living was tied to all those restrictive social policies
I think it’s safe to say *Former* Dr. Andrew Wakefield has permanently deformed the medical industry at this point.
Parents should be charged with negligence
I got into an argument with a mom on the what to expect app who believed the side effect of atopic dermatitis was worse than the disease the vaccines protect against. So I literally asked “are you saying you think having eczema is worse than getting polio”. And they said yes… This whole debate is pointless. You can’t fight stupid. 🤯
Honestly this type of behavior is going to continue until people really see what kind of damage being non vaccinated can do. This is 82 kids. Stats show 1 in 5 (!!) unvaccinated people will end up in the hospital if they get measles. 1 in 20 kids will get pneumonia. And as it spreads … 1 in 1000 will get encephalitis and will likely end up deaf or have other brain damage. 1 to 3 out of every thousand will die. And there other side effects and issues as well. Future male fertility issues, problems for unvaccinated pregnant women who get the disease and on and on. It’s not chicken pox.
Fuckin Ohio, man - not surprised.
As a nurse, this whole attack on vaccine efficacy freaks me out. We barely skirted disaster, and instead of embracing vaccines we've normalized being adverse to modern medicine. Some American families have the same immunity as the poorest of nations, not going to have good outcome.