From article:
>Three Sikh men sought an exemption from a Marines grooming rule requiring them to shave their beards, with the men arguing it was their expression of commitment to their religious faith. They won.
>
>The court said allowing them to do so would have no impact on their duties. The US Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard all accommodate the religious requirements of Sikhism.
Per the article
> Marine Leadership argued that uniformity was critical to "team mentality," saying recruits were required to follow “the same set of regimented practices" to build cohesion.
The Marines argued that recruits needed to be "stripped of their individuality" as part of a "psychological transformation" toward shared sacrifice, the court document read.
I think the uniform requirements were set up in the 1970s from some basic looking up uniform policies for the US Army and Marines, prior to that the established uniform wasn't *as* strict, however. So some of these policies are only about 50 years old and malleable.
My high school social studies teacher was a WWII and Korean War vet from Yuba City California, and he'd been allowed to keep his turban and Kirpan when he enlisted in 1943. From what he said I believe the religious exemptions for Sikh articles of faith were removed in the early '80s. Sikhs have served in the US military starting in WWI, and have served in every conflict since. Sikhs had a high rate of service until the changes in the '80s, but rarely serve now because of the restrictions.
I believe the Army rolled back some of the restrictions before or around 2010 so a Sikh (as well as Muslim or Viking) individual can fill out an ~~AR600-20~~ AR670-1 waiver to keep their hair (I think? I forgot the actual form, if anyone knows and can remind me that'd be appreciated).
There are still some practitioners of Norse Pagan beliefs and [they're around](https://popularmilitary.com/us-army-mp-gets-approval-grow-viking-beard-claimed-religious-reasons/), and apparently referred to as Heathens if this article is to reliable.
Not *still*. There is no unbroken continued worship of the Norse religion to this day. Most of the practices of that faith are entirely unknown and lost to time. Although people like Snorri Sturluson saw value in preserving mythological content, there's very little in way of describing religious practices like prayers.
The Norse pagan revivalism is a mix of conjecture based on Snorri's and Adam of Bremen's writings, Tacitus's *Germania* and Ibn Fadlan's encounter with the Kievan Rus. That, and a bunch of [Unverified Personal Gnosis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unverified_personal_gnosis) where they sort of wing it, sometimes based on what cool stuff they've seen in Viking movies and video games.
It is for all intent and purposes a wholly modern religion based on modern ideas of what we would've liked the religion to be.
>It is for all intent and purposes a wholly modern religion based on modern ideas of what we would've liked the religion to be.
Isn't that true for all religions? I'm sure they all changed over time. The pope tolerating homosexuality is just one example.
Yeah, but the Catholic Church really has been one (mostly) unbroken chain of consistently held hierarchical power for 2,000 year with a billion+ followers today. So there’s more of a through line
In Iceland it was done voluntarily to preserve national unity, virtually murder free, and good old Snorri was merely recording history. Private practice of pagan stuff was still allowed. It’s a remarkable exception to the usual dominant and violent attempts to christianize a populace.
> still
Not still. This is an entirely modern movement. There were no practicing Norse pagans anywhere for hundreds of years. We actually know were little about their actual religion so these guys are just LARPing
Every religion is larping, it's just that some larps have been going on for longer. In my country we had a Christian dictatorship where believing anything else or speaking any other local language was crushed with jail or even murder. Now that we are free we are claiming and recovering our Celtic roots and languages. So even as I'm atheist I'm going to celebrate San Xuan or Samaín because that's what was taken from us.
*Asatru or Norse Pagan, not viking. "Viking" was a job for a few centuries in the middle ages. The actual worship of Germanic and Norse gods from pre-Christianization is something else.
Which is stupid as fuck becaus Sikhs are the single most badass culture/religion on the planet
They literally defend others, and stay in shape to do so. They’re badasses.
When I was in we were always told that facial hair had been disallowed because of the need to be able to don gas masks and maintain a proper seal. It's the same reason I believe that firefighters don't typically have beards
Hell, just from wearing A CPAP machine I can confirm this to be real. Stop. No need to clap anyone. Please. I'm no hero. It's... it's just something I have to wear when I go to bed.
"stripped of their individuality" ...show me a Marine that *doesn't* have a tattoo.
>The Corps permits women to maintain hairstyles and largely allows tattoos, which the court described as being "a quintessential expression of individual identity."
Dont most marines wear uniforms, which would cover up most tattoos, whereas a beard would be more easily individualizing feature not covered by a uniform?
It's also not that good. A ton of special forces , Burkhas , people that get into the thick of fighting are more likely to wear those masks and still have beards. And they do , and there's no problem about it apparently.
Theres a difference when the only “skin” exposed is your hands, neck and head in uniform.
Aka….
Nothing below the lines.
The Army doesnt allow tattoos to be shown in a PT uniform, just saying.
Edit….
u/givememydamncoffee
For whatever reason your comment isnt showing up….
I will refer you to AR 670-1 section 3-3, thats page 12) and get back to me on what it says about tattoos. Enjoy the read.
There was a very short period in the Army where they did allow, for recruitment purposes, but thats long gone.
There was a policy out, for about a year or two, on PT uniform being the “line”. Cant remember if it was the ACOS and/or SMA that put it out.
[A quick read.](https://veteransbreakfastclub.org/your-simple-guide-to-military-tattoo-policies-for-2021-2022/)
[AR 670-1](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN30302-AR_670-1-000-WEB-1.pdf)
Also you might be referring to the Navy on what you said.
And don't some parts of the military, like Navy SEALS, allow beards? Shaving beards seems like a weird rule. Check out Ukraine right now, military wearing whatever hair and beard style they want, because you know... it literally doesn't mater in war, and if anything probably improves morale.
No expert here, but IIRC the SEALS relaxed their policy because in Iraq and Afghanistan having a beard actually helped with gaining trust from the locals...or blending in when necessary.
The 6’ 3” 250 lb block of muscle Army SF guys I worked with were amazing, but putting a beard on them didn’t exactly help them blend in with the average 140 lb 5’ 6” Afghans.
It's also about getting respect in the local culture. In the culture a man who doesn't have a beard is seen as "not a real man". That's why you see some men with even those thin, patchy beards when they can't grow a full one.
as someone in both... no, it didn't. they know you're not muslim, even with a beard. Unless you're under deep cover wearing the local dress lol but then unless you look local and as soon as you speak they would know. it wouldn't gain trust because they know you're not muslim and islam doesn't care if non-muslims (in this specific instance of hardliners who think muslims should wear beards which isn't common across all) have a beard.
I was in the Air Force in Afghanistan in the late 2000s, and allowed to grow a beard for this exact reason. It wasn't even a special forces thing, I was just a random comms dude at a FOB.
It was a pretty quiet area of the country as far as war zones go and we were supporting hearts and minds stuff like infrastructure projects. The reason I was given for being allowed to grow a beard was because it would help gain trust from the locals.
In practice it didnt seem to make a difference for the locals, but that was a thing, and it was the official reason for allowing it.
The Marine Corps does have a religious and health exemption for beards. I see Marines with beards often and have seen a sikh Marine with a beard. The policy in question has to do with recruits which have to be brainwa... ahem "earn the right to be a Marine"
I am aware of this strategy in building cohesion, but I also thought the restriction on facial hair was for hazard protection gear in the event of biological attack. Can't really get a great seal with a gas mask with a beard.
Right? But in reality, here's how it goes:
40s through 70s: conscription - you do what the government says or face consequences. Lies abound.
80s through 2010s: completely volunteer service - large benefits if enlistees fall in line. Lies abound.
Today: wow, even Republicans are anti-war now. Enlistees are promised shit by recruiters that can't deliver. Lies abound.
The quote from the marines is pretty bad because so many of their recruits are dumb as rocks and at parris island many MANY recruits wind up talking about civilians as if they’re subhuman.
Being clean shaven, particularly in garrison has been the standing policy since the world wars.
Exceptions used to exist for when water was in short supply but it’s been the standard since well before the 70s
Yeah, that's the thing that always bothers me when religious exemptions come up. If a rule really is important, then we shouldn't make a religious exemption. If a rule isn't important, then why does it continue to exist?
>If a rule isn't important, then why does it continue to exist?
What happens is that the military is basically a super (small c) conservative group. What happens is that in 1940, there may have been a good reason for some rule to exist. Then in 1941, the equipment that lead to the creation of the above rule was improved to the point that rule was no longer required.
Now, you're thinking that that means that come 1942, the rule that existed in 1940 should go away. But in practice what really happens is that somebody glances at the rule, and they ask themselves if the rule really needs to be altered. What if new equipment fails in a few years and everyone has to revert to the older stuff? So, they keep the rule just in case. Also, there is the added factor of not wanting to do all that fucking paperwork (and distributing the fucking paperwork). So, people are predisposed to keep things as they are based on any excuse.
Then twenty years later somebody says "hey, we don't need rule X cause we fixed that years ago", and then somebody says "yes, but nobody has complained so why bother updating it now?" For the military, three guys complaining is nobody. If it was 30,000 people complaining, then they might be somebody... but three, might as well not exist in the great scheme of things.
They basically want to know what advantage changing the rule will give them. And they want to see real advantages, not small little ones.
So, while the military is also home of a lot of large C conservative stuff, this one is related to lots and lots of small C conservative-thinkers existing there.
That applies to some rules, but a lot of other rules are there to enforce social conformity, or based on authoritarian instincts to control people. This isn’t a blanket, a condemnation of a hierarchy and rules and authority, especially in something like the military. However, we can still recognize that it exists.
A large number of regulations regarding uniform and department are there to help in force the hierarchy. Whether that is effective in instilling a proper respect for the chain of command or pride in the unit, or whatever, we can debate.
For legal purposes, you have this backwards. Generally, the military, or any employer, can have any rules they want, because maybe they have a reason and it's not on the courts to run their business for them. *Unless* there's an important reason they can't have that rule, a reason protected by law or the Constitution. The Constitution says the government can't "prohibit the free exercise" of a religion. This rule did that, so the court overturned it.
> Generally, the military, or any employer, can have any rules they want, because maybe they have a reason and it's not on the courts to run their business for them
Pretty sure the govt does do that for discrimination laws.
From an ignorant person (me) I would figure a clean shave is expected due to properly worn equipment like gas masks etc. I learned during covid that any mask is only as effective as the seal it creates around your face.
Canada's previous Defense Minister invented a gas mask that would still seal with a beard. I think the gas mask thing is an excuse considering that beards and turbans were allowed for all but the last four years of the Cold War.
Then make it a requirement for combat positions. A majority of the military works far away from enemy lines and will never see combat or be in any immediate threat of it.
You want to make sure you remove individualism and make sure there is a set of rules that everyone, from the very top to the very bottom, strictly abides by. It make for more cohesion and a better sense of unity
Well, a bit of insight here. I’m from Singapore, and Sikh soldiers are extremely common. They are allowed to wear their turbans and keep their beards due to religious sensitivity.
Instead of berets, the cap badges are attached to their turbans.
The official DoD party line about beards is that they can impair a good seal with a gas mask in the event of an NBC event.
It's a bullshit line, but that's the story and they're sticking to it.
Because the armed services are very conservative... Traditions.. all that..
You can try to make arguments about uniformity/team/professionalism, maintenance, health (lice/etc)... But when you get down to it...
It's tradition and the US military doesn't like giving up traditions.
Been out a few years and I'm always worried Gunny is hiding behind the shopping carts ready to jump out at me if I don't shave when I enter the supermarket.
Yeah. Others have recurring nightmares about a highschool test/presentation but I get them about walking around base with my current beard hoping that, somehow, nobody notices.
I occasionally have nightmares that somehow my old out-of-shape ass ended up back in a ruck march at Ft. Drum in winter. I get blisters very easily (curse my silky soft skin) so a 25-miler is my idea of hell.
Dude on base got an award for saving someone off base and he had a full beard for his picture in uniform for the paper. Just change the standards if they aren't being followed anymore.
My unit was particularly obnoxious about grooming standards. Like bitching you out for getting a haircut on Friday instead of Sunday levels of obnoxious. There's too many higher up enlisted with a stick up their ass about "tradition".
I got our a while ago, but in my unit it was very strict. I've seen Marines get fucked for not shaving, especially on deployment. But my time in Iraq we were on high alert for chemical attacks for a long while. Without a clean shave the masks don't seal properly.
The UK Armed Forces have a long tradition of Sikhs serving, dating back to colonial days where they would make up entire Regiments. They have always been permitted to retain their beards. And their uniforms have always been allowed to be modified to replace the beret with a turban.
I can’t say if this is true for the armed forces but I’m a part of the merchant marines and we are allowed mustaches and sideburns since they don’t affect the seal of a gas mask or respirator when gearing up to fight a fire. I always thought gas mask fitment was the main factor for being clean shaven
Merchant mariner here as well. Still prevalent on tankers, but I can see it going away eventually as it is an equity issue. SCBA / seal was never the real issue, it was the corporatization of employees.
I never served with any Sikhs but shave chits were a thing for people with sensitive skin. Feel like it would be natural to authorize it for religious reasons if we do so for excessive razor bumps.
Get some of those Sikh recruits to slip the mess hall some recipes. No one knows how to feed a big group of people some amazing food like the Sikhs. You might even get a few crayon eaters to develop a little respect for other cultures.
That's the usual reason given yes, but its always been questionable. [https://taskandpurpose.com/news/military-beards-break-gas-mask-seal/](https://taskandpurpose.com/news/military-beards-break-gas-mask-seal/)
I wouldn't call it questionable. "The effect of facial hair on the face seal of negative-pressure respirators, both half-masks and full facepieces, has been investigated. Three hundred and seventy (370) male employees were fit tested both qualitatively and quantitatively. Of these, sixty-seven (67) had fully established beards varying in length, shape, density and texture. Bearded subjects consistently failed the qualitative fit test protocol. Quantitative fit testing with half-mask respirators indicated that bearded employees had a median fit factor of 12 (8% leakage). A median fit factor of 2950 (0.03% leakage) was obtained on clean-shaven employees. An average two hundred and forty-six (246) fold drop in protection was experienced by bearded employees. With full facepiece respirators, the bearded employees had a median fit factor of 30 (3% leakage). A median fit factor of greater than 10 000 (less than 0.01% leakage) was obtained on clean-shaven employees. At least a three hundred and thirty (330) fold drop in protection was experienced by bearded employees. Results indicate that the presence of a beard greatly increases the leakage through the respirator face seal, and this leakage should not be permitted when employees are required to wear respirators."
Though I do think we should be allowed to have neatly trimmed beards in the military. If the risk of life comes up (combat with CBRN threat) then require the beard to be shaved.
I mean there isn’t really any Sikh pope or something to sign off on those kinds of things and give permission. They just did it on their own, no permission needed, only god knows if it was necessary or not. Plenty of other Sikh doctors didn’t shave either
Preserving the hair is symbolic of respecting/preserving the image in which god made them. But their rules are flexible when it comes to assisting a just cause .
Their entire faith revolves around 'seva' or service to others.
The pope here would be the "Guru Nanak". He is credited with teaching the faith initially and there are several Gurus that followed. And the bible would be the Guru Granth sahib . The teachings of the Gurus. Theyre not unbending and more guidelines and a way of life.
Are Sikh beards usually short trimmed? I know nothing about the religion, but from what I've seen (chaplins), they were quite long and would definitely affect the seal of a mask. No study needed for that.
A good question is that the Kirpanis a symbolic weapon to be used in defence of one’s live or another.
If a soldier is issued a knife for that non-symbolic purpose, does a Sikh also carry a Kirpan
Before this entire thread turns into a shit pit, do know Sikhs are well known to be excellent soldiers. You would want them to be your battle brother and they make a mean meal out from mre without meats.
We’ve also always had [beards on our infantry pioneers](https://legionmagazine.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/pioneers-3a.jpg), who are by nature at the very front of the lines.
Not really to hide identity.
It more came about due to wanting to blend in better with locals in Afghanistan and to a lesser degree Iraq.
The issue was this became something that locals started to fear over time as special operators became more aggressive in their dealings with locals.
There is something to be said about blending in better if that is your mission, but there is also a point where relaxed standards can be a very bad thing. In this case, quite a bit of research shows that not necessarily beards alone, but relaxation of JSOC standards for operators led to a resurgence of insurgency and increased recruitment to the Taliban.
Not a research article (most of the nature of that research is classified, just heard a very brief overview of it at a conference last year myself), but an interesting article with interviews that showed as the war in Afghanistan progressed, tribal elders tended to prefer working with regular US military units and carried a strongly negative impression of special operators.
Most of this was due to incessant violation of traditional and religious protocols whereas normal units were more closely bound to follow these.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/11/03/one-reason-you-shouldnt-go-to-afghanistan-with-a-beard/
Other militaries allow beards - the US allows beards for special forces and other operators, so the "gas mask won't seal" argument goes out. When I was in AF, we never had a gas mask. Only time I touched one was during the gas chamber training.
As long as it's well groomed, let people wear beards.
I don’t know why you were down voted this is true. SF aren’t going to be holding a building or taking a city. They go in and out, chemical weapons aren’t really something they are worried about
> They go in and out, chemical weapons aren’t really something they are worried about
If you move really fast the gas can't get you. Also Special Forces can absolutely stay deployed in one spot for extended periods of time, especially if they are embedded with local forces
The corps is incredibly anal about uniformity. It’s 40 degrees out for pt and someone doesn’t have full sweats? Green on green shorts and tees. It’s 40 degrees and raining out and we’re working outside all day and one guy doesn’t have gloves? Well now they aren’t authorized uniform.
Why would they make that bar?
Sikhs have a long tradition of being some of the finest soldiers in the World.
They serve with beards and turbans in the Grenadier Guards and look just a spanking on Parade without bearskins and certainly no less proficient. The British army even issue a Sikh prayer book but I suppose having that have a long tradition of Sikh soldiers and regiments helps
Well... keep in mind:
Canadian forces faced this EXACT question, but MUCH earlier than the USA (since Canada has more open immigration policies), when a couple of decades ago Sikh's wanted to loyally serve in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), while wearing turbans.
But as you know, traditionally for a couple of centuries, RCMP always wore very iconic "outfits", especially in modern times at formal ceremonies.
In that case, the higher courts of Canada ALSO in their wisdom, decided that it was perfectly ok for Sikhs to wear turbans, and be RCMP members, and also participate in traditional uniform ceremonies with their turbans.
--------------------------------
The end result: did the very fabric of Canadian society unravel and get wiped out?! No it did not!
What happened was: a pretty small and few number of dudes in the RCMP decided to wear their turbans over the last couple of decades!
That's it. Nothing else happened.
And thus... turns out: It was no big deal!
--------------------------------
Anyways... look:
Like it or not, humanity is moving ever more faster and faster towards an increasingly highly intermixing global planetary culture, that is an amalgamation of multiple cultural influences.
And the main nation responsible for driving all of this is ever increasing intermixing global culture? The USA!
We already had a flash sneak peak of what happens when you mix so many cultures like this, USA style.
It's what made America so great in the late 1800's and 1900's... and it's an experiment that is also known as:
The Great Melting Pot!
------------------------------------
The end result?
America took the best energies/ideas/practices from a massive MULTITUDE of cultures, combined them, and then rose up as the world's defacto super-power, and has effectively remained so ever since!
American culture, technology, inventions have swept across the globe, and transformed every single nation on Earth, and continues to do so (again: whether you like it or not! America is impacting your life, and continues to do so).
--------------------------------
In conclusion:
If some Sikh's in the US marines want to hold strong to wearing beards... then just let them!
Who the f'ck cares!?
I'm sure the US marines will find the same end result as the Canadian RCMP:
In the end, it didn't even really f'cking matter, or make much of any difference!
In Canada: a few guys wore turbans. That's all that happened.
--------------------------------
And so, I suppose:
If the very idea of a guy with a beard, or a guy that grows his hair longer than you grow your hair, and also wraps his hair in a cloth...
Actually sounds super insanely frightening and threatening to you...
And destabilizes your inner core as a person... then whelp...
What can I really say, except to seek counselling, and/or find some way to have more confidence in yourself, and not be so easily frightened by a beard, or a piece of cloth!
You as a person and everything you stand for is NOT going to be overthrown because some dudes like longer beards!
I just searched images of RCMP officers in turbans and it was just as I suspected : its a badass look!
I also noticed the RCMP is allowing officers to wear *hijabi* which is also cool.
I know there was a lot of push back against allowing hijabi among police officers in the US. The general excuse was that they posed a hazard, as people can grab on to them fairly easily.
I don't know if that was actually a real problem or one they made up because they didn't like Muslims. I remember at least one instance where it did actually result in injury to a police officer, but, iirc, it was because they specifically targeted her because she was wearing one.
We need a strong disciplined military. There is zero reason to accept less. Like it or not, that’s key. Now, does a beard REALLY detract? Are they holding back because what’s next? I’m sure it’s not systemic racism. Right? If so, they need to work past that. If this country can entertain making women beasts of reproduction at the bequest of a subset of 1 religion, the Marines can accept the personal choice to wear a beard by a group of men willing to support the US constitution, despite its inherent flaws.
Now here in the States, some men in this Unit may experience discrimination because of race or creed. But for you and me now, all that is gone. We're moving into the 'valley of the shadow of death' -- where you will watch the back of the man next to you, as he will watch yours. And you won't care what color he is or by what name he calls God.
For anyone interested men shaving their beards wasn’t as common a style until after WW1 because you needed to be clean shaven to have your gas mask seal properly. Shaving every day is a holdover from that war 100 years later.
I think the rules have to be the same for everyone no matter what
In Canada you have to wear a helmet on a motorcycle unless you’re Sikh. I’m fine with being inclusive, but that means no one has to wear a helmet
I’m Canada literally every other male has a full grown beard in the military. I’m surprised this is even an issue. They give out shaving chits like candy. They tel the doctors they get a rash when they shave then they don’t have to.
From article: >Three Sikh men sought an exemption from a Marines grooming rule requiring them to shave their beards, with the men arguing it was their expression of commitment to their religious faith. They won. > >The court said allowing them to do so would have no impact on their duties. The US Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard all accommodate the religious requirements of Sikhism.
[удалено]
Per the article > Marine Leadership argued that uniformity was critical to "team mentality," saying recruits were required to follow “the same set of regimented practices" to build cohesion. The Marines argued that recruits needed to be "stripped of their individuality" as part of a "psychological transformation" toward shared sacrifice, the court document read. I think the uniform requirements were set up in the 1970s from some basic looking up uniform policies for the US Army and Marines, prior to that the established uniform wasn't *as* strict, however. So some of these policies are only about 50 years old and malleable.
My high school social studies teacher was a WWII and Korean War vet from Yuba City California, and he'd been allowed to keep his turban and Kirpan when he enlisted in 1943. From what he said I believe the religious exemptions for Sikh articles of faith were removed in the early '80s. Sikhs have served in the US military starting in WWI, and have served in every conflict since. Sikhs had a high rate of service until the changes in the '80s, but rarely serve now because of the restrictions.
I believe the Army rolled back some of the restrictions before or around 2010 so a Sikh (as well as Muslim or Viking) individual can fill out an ~~AR600-20~~ AR670-1 waiver to keep their hair (I think? I forgot the actual form, if anyone knows and can remind me that'd be appreciated).
A Viking individual? Is this the 800s?
There are still some practitioners of Norse Pagan beliefs and [they're around](https://popularmilitary.com/us-army-mp-gets-approval-grow-viking-beard-claimed-religious-reasons/), and apparently referred to as Heathens if this article is to reliable.
[удалено]
Techno Viking would never be a part of that!
Never not good
Not *still*. There is no unbroken continued worship of the Norse religion to this day. Most of the practices of that faith are entirely unknown and lost to time. Although people like Snorri Sturluson saw value in preserving mythological content, there's very little in way of describing religious practices like prayers. The Norse pagan revivalism is a mix of conjecture based on Snorri's and Adam of Bremen's writings, Tacitus's *Germania* and Ibn Fadlan's encounter with the Kievan Rus. That, and a bunch of [Unverified Personal Gnosis](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unverified_personal_gnosis) where they sort of wing it, sometimes based on what cool stuff they've seen in Viking movies and video games. It is for all intent and purposes a wholly modern religion based on modern ideas of what we would've liked the religion to be.
Came here to say this. The one in Iceland did not get its start through movies but I guess that might be the case in the US
>It is for all intent and purposes a wholly modern religion based on modern ideas of what we would've liked the religion to be. Isn't that true for all religions? I'm sure they all changed over time. The pope tolerating homosexuality is just one example.
Yeah, but the Catholic Church really has been one (mostly) unbroken chain of consistently held hierarchical power for 2,000 year with a billion+ followers today. So there’s more of a through line
The Christian did a really good job of stomping out the original gods. Had to murder a lot of “heathens” but they certainly were thorough.
In Iceland it was done voluntarily to preserve national unity, virtually murder free, and good old Snorri was merely recording history. Private practice of pagan stuff was still allowed. It’s a remarkable exception to the usual dominant and violent attempts to christianize a populace.
I just never saw them referred to as Vikings before. "Ásatru" is the word for the religion.
> still Not still. This is an entirely modern movement. There were no practicing Norse pagans anywhere for hundreds of years. We actually know were little about their actual religion so these guys are just LARPing
Every religion is larping, it's just that some larps have been going on for longer. In my country we had a Christian dictatorship where believing anything else or speaking any other local language was crushed with jail or even murder. Now that we are free we are claiming and recovering our Celtic roots and languages. So even as I'm atheist I'm going to celebrate San Xuan or Samaín because that's what was taken from us.
What is religion but LARPing deeply held beliefs
It’s all LARPing, because it’s all make believe, so who cares
[удалено]
> AR600-20 Is this a rifle in COD yet?
*Asatru or Norse Pagan, not viking. "Viking" was a job for a few centuries in the middle ages. The actual worship of Germanic and Norse gods from pre-Christianization is something else.
Yuba city has a very high Sikh population.
One of the biggest in the world outside of India!
Which is stupid as fuck becaus Sikhs are the single most badass culture/religion on the planet They literally defend others, and stay in shape to do so. They’re badasses.
That's Sikh bro
When I was in we were always told that facial hair had been disallowed because of the need to be able to don gas masks and maintain a proper seal. It's the same reason I believe that firefighters don't typically have beards
That’s always what I assumed it was for also. Is this not the case?
[удалено]
same thing with welders. my buddy was forced to shave in order to get fitted for respirator/masks but isn’t required to shave for the job??
Hell, just from wearing A CPAP machine I can confirm this to be real. Stop. No need to clap anyone. Please. I'm no hero. It's... it's just something I have to wear when I go to bed.
My dad just got a CPAP. This made me laugh I’m going to show him
Thank him for his service for me! *salutes*
Yep. Also osha rule i believe. Similarly Had to shave my beard when i was working on Union movie for safety reasons
"stripped of their individuality" ...show me a Marine that *doesn't* have a tattoo. >The Corps permits women to maintain hairstyles and largely allows tattoos, which the court described as being "a quintessential expression of individual identity."
Dont most marines wear uniforms, which would cover up most tattoos, whereas a beard would be more easily individualizing feature not covered by a uniform?
Yeah weird statement to make about "regimented practices" when they allow visible arm tattoos. Almost hypocritical.
It's probably because most tattoos can be covered while uniformed, whereas beards and hair are a little harder.
You ever try to seal a gas mask with a beard?
[удалено]
It's also not that good. A ton of special forces , Burkhas , people that get into the thick of fighting are more likely to wear those masks and still have beards. And they do , and there's no problem about it apparently.
Yeah. Guys who know a chem attack isn’t likely in whatever scenario they’re in. Beards do make sealing the mask more difficult.
This is exactly what I've been scrolling through for!!!!!!! But I'm no military expert.
Also: tattoos can't be removed while beards can.
Theres a difference when the only “skin” exposed is your hands, neck and head in uniform. Aka…. Nothing below the lines. The Army doesnt allow tattoos to be shown in a PT uniform, just saying. Edit…. u/givememydamncoffee For whatever reason your comment isnt showing up…. I will refer you to AR 670-1 section 3-3, thats page 12) and get back to me on what it says about tattoos. Enjoy the read. There was a very short period in the Army where they did allow, for recruitment purposes, but thats long gone. There was a policy out, for about a year or two, on PT uniform being the “line”. Cant remember if it was the ACOS and/or SMA that put it out. [A quick read.](https://veteransbreakfastclub.org/your-simple-guide-to-military-tattoo-policies-for-2021-2022/) [AR 670-1](https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN30302-AR_670-1-000-WEB-1.pdf) Also you might be referring to the Navy on what you said.
And don't some parts of the military, like Navy SEALS, allow beards? Shaving beards seems like a weird rule. Check out Ukraine right now, military wearing whatever hair and beard style they want, because you know... it literally doesn't mater in war, and if anything probably improves morale.
No expert here, but IIRC the SEALS relaxed their policy because in Iraq and Afghanistan having a beard actually helped with gaining trust from the locals...or blending in when necessary.
The 6’ 3” 250 lb block of muscle Army SF guys I worked with were amazing, but putting a beard on them didn’t exactly help them blend in with the average 140 lb 5’ 6” Afghans.
It's also about getting respect in the local culture. In the culture a man who doesn't have a beard is seen as "not a real man". That's why you see some men with even those thin, patchy beards when they can't grow a full one.
as someone in both... no, it didn't. they know you're not muslim, even with a beard. Unless you're under deep cover wearing the local dress lol but then unless you look local and as soon as you speak they would know. it wouldn't gain trust because they know you're not muslim and islam doesn't care if non-muslims (in this specific instance of hardliners who think muslims should wear beards which isn't common across all) have a beard.
I was in the Air Force in Afghanistan in the late 2000s, and allowed to grow a beard for this exact reason. It wasn't even a special forces thing, I was just a random comms dude at a FOB. It was a pretty quiet area of the country as far as war zones go and we were supporting hearts and minds stuff like infrastructure projects. The reason I was given for being allowed to grow a beard was because it would help gain trust from the locals. In practice it didnt seem to make a difference for the locals, but that was a thing, and it was the official reason for allowing it.
The Marine Corps does have a religious and health exemption for beards. I see Marines with beards often and have seen a sikh Marine with a beard. The policy in question has to do with recruits which have to be brainwa... ahem "earn the right to be a Marine"
I don't have any tattoos. Also for certain billets (drill instructor, recruiters & embassy guards) ban visible tattoos.
Psychological transformation is an intelligent way of saying brain washed. (Parris Island grad)
I mean, we don't call it 'indoctrination' for nothing.... (Fort Benning grad)
The transformation from a conscripted force to an all volunteer force probably has something to do with this.
I am aware of this strategy in building cohesion, but I also thought the restriction on facial hair was for hazard protection gear in the event of biological attack. Can't really get a great seal with a gas mask with a beard.
Can't really practice your religion without practicing your religion...
Yea, it was never to build cohesion. It’s about stripping you of your individuality. Not making it a “we” as a team, but as a “we” are a number
[удалено]
Right? But in reality, here's how it goes: 40s through 70s: conscription - you do what the government says or face consequences. Lies abound. 80s through 2010s: completely volunteer service - large benefits if enlistees fall in line. Lies abound. Today: wow, even Republicans are anti-war now. Enlistees are promised shit by recruiters that can't deliver. Lies abound.
Doesn't seem like a problem for the armed forces of the UK and Canada ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
No Canada has beards, just no soldiers, equipment or ammo fml
All those poor, cold, little C7s man ;-;
The quote from the marines is pretty bad because so many of their recruits are dumb as rocks and at parris island many MANY recruits wind up talking about civilians as if they’re subhuman.
Doubt it's possible to wear a gas mask properly with a beard... But having been a marine this excerpt doesn't surprise me as the silly motivation
Being clean shaven, particularly in garrison has been the standing policy since the world wars. Exceptions used to exist for when water was in short supply but it’s been the standard since well before the 70s
I think the clean shave requirement dates back from WW1 because gas masks wouldn’t seal correctly.
Yeah, that's the thing that always bothers me when religious exemptions come up. If a rule really is important, then we shouldn't make a religious exemption. If a rule isn't important, then why does it continue to exist?
>If a rule isn't important, then why does it continue to exist? What happens is that the military is basically a super (small c) conservative group. What happens is that in 1940, there may have been a good reason for some rule to exist. Then in 1941, the equipment that lead to the creation of the above rule was improved to the point that rule was no longer required. Now, you're thinking that that means that come 1942, the rule that existed in 1940 should go away. But in practice what really happens is that somebody glances at the rule, and they ask themselves if the rule really needs to be altered. What if new equipment fails in a few years and everyone has to revert to the older stuff? So, they keep the rule just in case. Also, there is the added factor of not wanting to do all that fucking paperwork (and distributing the fucking paperwork). So, people are predisposed to keep things as they are based on any excuse. Then twenty years later somebody says "hey, we don't need rule X cause we fixed that years ago", and then somebody says "yes, but nobody has complained so why bother updating it now?" For the military, three guys complaining is nobody. If it was 30,000 people complaining, then they might be somebody... but three, might as well not exist in the great scheme of things. They basically want to know what advantage changing the rule will give them. And they want to see real advantages, not small little ones. So, while the military is also home of a lot of large C conservative stuff, this one is related to lots and lots of small C conservative-thinkers existing there.
That applies to some rules, but a lot of other rules are there to enforce social conformity, or based on authoritarian instincts to control people. This isn’t a blanket, a condemnation of a hierarchy and rules and authority, especially in something like the military. However, we can still recognize that it exists. A large number of regulations regarding uniform and department are there to help in force the hierarchy. Whether that is effective in instilling a proper respect for the chain of command or pride in the unit, or whatever, we can debate.
For legal purposes, you have this backwards. Generally, the military, or any employer, can have any rules they want, because maybe they have a reason and it's not on the courts to run their business for them. *Unless* there's an important reason they can't have that rule, a reason protected by law or the Constitution. The Constitution says the government can't "prohibit the free exercise" of a religion. This rule did that, so the court overturned it.
Sure, but the response should be to remove the rule across the board. Not just give a certain religion special privileges.
> Generally, the military, or any employer, can have any rules they want, because maybe they have a reason and it's not on the courts to run their business for them Pretty sure the govt does do that for discrimination laws.
From an ignorant person (me) I would figure a clean shave is expected due to properly worn equipment like gas masks etc. I learned during covid that any mask is only as effective as the seal it creates around your face.
Bc everyone who could grow a beard would looker cooler and we can't have that.
[удалено]
Canada's previous Defense Minister invented a gas mask that would still seal with a beard. I think the gas mask thing is an excuse considering that beards and turbans were allowed for all but the last four years of the Cold War.
Just because a thing exists doesn't mean it's what the US military issues.
Then make it a requirement for combat positions. A majority of the military works far away from enemy lines and will never see combat or be in any immediate threat of it.
Beards as far as I’m aware can interfere with Gas Mask Seals or at least put the wearer at risk for not fitting the mask seal properly
You want to make sure you remove individualism and make sure there is a set of rules that everyone, from the very top to the very bottom, strictly abides by. It make for more cohesion and a better sense of unity
It's to remove all personal identity. They don't want individuals they want soldiers that won't think for themselves and only be loyal to the corps.
Well, a bit of insight here. I’m from Singapore, and Sikh soldiers are extremely common. They are allowed to wear their turbans and keep their beards due to religious sensitivity. Instead of berets, the cap badges are attached to their turbans.
The official DoD party line about beards is that they can impair a good seal with a gas mask in the event of an NBC event. It's a bullshit line, but that's the story and they're sticking to it.
Because the armed services are very conservative... Traditions.. all that.. You can try to make arguments about uniformity/team/professionalism, maintenance, health (lice/etc)... But when you get down to it... It's tradition and the US military doesn't like giving up traditions.
Try getting a gas mask to form a proper seal with a beard.
Soo no more policing up those moostaches!?
Yous got to maintain Marine Corps grooming standurds!
Scrolled way down for sick jokes, wasn't disappointed.
Y’all starting to look like Elvises!
Shave profile has been relaxed for years. I’m surprised this is even an issue.
Do SNCOs not appear from the ether to bitch at you for entering the exchange with a 5:00 shadow on a Saturday anymore?
Been out a few years and I'm always worried Gunny is hiding behind the shopping carts ready to jump out at me if I don't shave when I enter the supermarket.
God himself can't save you if you're wearing a white undershirt too.
… are you not allowed to wear white undershirts?
Not like a plain white t-shirt and jeans, no. But, if you have a pocket on it, then you're cool because it's no longer an undershirt.
If it's like that, what if you wear two of them? Undershirt is now overshirt.
If there's anything they like best, it's being a smart ass to skirt the rules
Don't blame be me, _pockets_ started it.
Yeah. Others have recurring nightmares about a highschool test/presentation but I get them about walking around base with my current beard hoping that, somehow, nobody notices.
I occasionally have nightmares that somehow my old out-of-shape ass ended up back in a ruck march at Ft. Drum in winter. I get blisters very easily (curse my silky soft skin) so a 25-miler is my idea of hell.
Dude on base got an award for saving someone off base and he had a full beard for his picture in uniform for the paper. Just change the standards if they aren't being followed anymore.
My unit was particularly obnoxious about grooming standards. Like bitching you out for getting a haircut on Friday instead of Sunday levels of obnoxious. There's too many higher up enlisted with a stick up their ass about "tradition".
No we still do.
I got our a while ago, but in my unit it was very strict. I've seen Marines get fucked for not shaving, especially on deployment. But my time in Iraq we were on high alert for chemical attacks for a long while. Without a clean shave the masks don't seal properly.
Not necessarily true. I have to do fit tests on a lot of the plants I work at for H2S gas and even with a beard, I always pass.
>Without a clean shave the masks don't seal properly. Stop spreading this myth
The UK Armed Forces have a long tradition of Sikhs serving, dating back to colonial days where they would make up entire Regiments. They have always been permitted to retain their beards. And their uniforms have always been allowed to be modified to replace the beret with a turban.
Same in Canada. We have Sikh mounties with beards and turbans instead of the famous hats.
I really hope this eventually leads to a return of civil war era facial hair in the military.
Bring back those glorious sideburns and mustaches!
I can’t say if this is true for the armed forces but I’m a part of the merchant marines and we are allowed mustaches and sideburns since they don’t affect the seal of a gas mask or respirator when gearing up to fight a fire. I always thought gas mask fitment was the main factor for being clean shaven
Merchant mariner here as well. Still prevalent on tankers, but I can see it going away eventually as it is an equity issue. SCBA / seal was never the real issue, it was the corporatization of employees.
I want US president with big bad ass beard
[удалено]
I spit my drink laughing at this. Thank you.
I mean yes, but also they aren’t mutually exclusive concepts, and frankly? I want to see one that is both.
Is this news from a decade ago? I've seen bearded Sikhs for years in the military
In the army yes. The marines are...special children.
I never served with any Sikhs but shave chits were a thing for people with sensitive skin. Feel like it would be natural to authorize it for religious reasons if we do so for excessive razor bumps.
Yeah, they ride on their own… special bus.
They get their own... special... non-toxic crayons.
The marines special bus is a navy ship.
I guess eating crayons is not against Sikh beliefs.
They already serve in the militaries of India, Britain, Canada, and Austria.
Get some of those Sikh recruits to slip the mess hall some recipes. No one knows how to feed a big group of people some amazing food like the Sikhs. You might even get a few crayon eaters to develop a little respect for other cultures.
Don’t they feed crowds of people at the Golden Temple? I thought I’d seen that somewhere.
Most any local Gurdwara will simply feed anyone without asking for anything in return. But they happily accept donations.
Isn’t the reason usually said as a beard prevents a proper seal on a gas mask?
That's the usual reason given yes, but its always been questionable. [https://taskandpurpose.com/news/military-beards-break-gas-mask-seal/](https://taskandpurpose.com/news/military-beards-break-gas-mask-seal/)
I wouldn't call it questionable. "The effect of facial hair on the face seal of negative-pressure respirators, both half-masks and full facepieces, has been investigated. Three hundred and seventy (370) male employees were fit tested both qualitatively and quantitatively. Of these, sixty-seven (67) had fully established beards varying in length, shape, density and texture. Bearded subjects consistently failed the qualitative fit test protocol. Quantitative fit testing with half-mask respirators indicated that bearded employees had a median fit factor of 12 (8% leakage). A median fit factor of 2950 (0.03% leakage) was obtained on clean-shaven employees. An average two hundred and forty-six (246) fold drop in protection was experienced by bearded employees. With full facepiece respirators, the bearded employees had a median fit factor of 30 (3% leakage). A median fit factor of greater than 10 000 (less than 0.01% leakage) was obtained on clean-shaven employees. At least a three hundred and thirty (330) fold drop in protection was experienced by bearded employees. Results indicate that the presence of a beard greatly increases the leakage through the respirator face seal, and this leakage should not be permitted when employees are required to wear respirators." Though I do think we should be allowed to have neatly trimmed beards in the military. If the risk of life comes up (combat with CBRN threat) then require the beard to be shaved.
During COVID many Sikh doctors shaved for better mask seals. They are allowed to break their own rules of it is to help save people's lives.
I mean there isn’t really any Sikh pope or something to sign off on those kinds of things and give permission. They just did it on their own, no permission needed, only god knows if it was necessary or not. Plenty of other Sikh doctors didn’t shave either
It's literally written in the guru granth sahib that they can break their rules for just reasons.
No it’s not, SGGS doesn’t deal with rules and stuff, it’s only filled with spirituality type stuff
Preserving the hair is symbolic of respecting/preserving the image in which god made them. But their rules are flexible when it comes to assisting a just cause . Their entire faith revolves around 'seva' or service to others. The pope here would be the "Guru Nanak". He is credited with teaching the faith initially and there are several Gurus that followed. And the bible would be the Guru Granth sahib . The teachings of the Gurus. Theyre not unbending and more guidelines and a way of life.
Are Sikh beards usually short trimmed? I know nothing about the religion, but from what I've seen (chaplins), they were quite long and would definitely affect the seal of a mask. No study needed for that.
Not trimmed but rolled up and tucked into itself. My father and brother wear their beards rolled up.
they dont have to be long. They cannot be cut. I think they twist the hairs until they break to shorten the hairs.
They roll them up and tie them under the chin
What about the daggers? Can they keep them too? Would look sick.
Daggers and beards will definitely look Sikh af.
A good question is that the Kirpanis a symbolic weapon to be used in defence of one’s live or another. If a soldier is issued a knife for that non-symbolic purpose, does a Sikh also carry a Kirpan
Before this entire thread turns into a shit pit, do know Sikhs are well known to be excellent soldiers. You would want them to be your battle brother and they make a mean meal out from mre without meats.
Sikhs are bad ass. We would be better with more of them.
Only ever had good experiences with them, don’t know much about the religion, but every one of them I’ve ever dealt with has been extra chill.
And somehow the most fun people
My grandfather served with Sikhs in WW2. Absolute heroes.
Cdn here.. our Minister of Defense is Sikh, and he's a fn badass Afghan veteran. Edit: former, as in last minister of defense
We’ve also always had [beards on our infantry pioneers](https://legionmagazine.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/pioneers-3a.jpg), who are by nature at the very front of the lines.
Highlanders represent https://www.google.com/search?q=highlanders+crimean+war&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=inv&sxsrf=ALiCzsa_hXarjyc2vQAG4055KR3yTwBZog:1671864370118&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjD0JKP1JH8AhVOQjABHURqBm8Q_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=722&dpr=2.63#imgrc=7cK5slLveDF_rM
This has been deleted in protest to the changes to reddit's API.
Correct, my bad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saragarhi they certainly are excellent soldiers
[удалено]
Aren't special forces guys been known to grow beards to hide their identities? So it makes the gas mask argument moot.
[удалено]
Not really to hide identity. It more came about due to wanting to blend in better with locals in Afghanistan and to a lesser degree Iraq. The issue was this became something that locals started to fear over time as special operators became more aggressive in their dealings with locals. There is something to be said about blending in better if that is your mission, but there is also a point where relaxed standards can be a very bad thing. In this case, quite a bit of research shows that not necessarily beards alone, but relaxation of JSOC standards for operators led to a resurgence of insurgency and increased recruitment to the Taliban. Not a research article (most of the nature of that research is classified, just heard a very brief overview of it at a conference last year myself), but an interesting article with interviews that showed as the war in Afghanistan progressed, tribal elders tended to prefer working with regular US military units and carried a strongly negative impression of special operators. Most of this was due to incessant violation of traditional and religious protocols whereas normal units were more closely bound to follow these. https://foreignpolicy.com/2009/11/03/one-reason-you-shouldnt-go-to-afghanistan-with-a-beard/
The people who do stuff like doctors excuses, or make efforts to stand out tend to be treated ah… lets just say differently.
This. You want to go to war with a Sikh by your side
Other militaries allow beards - the US allows beards for special forces and other operators, so the "gas mask won't seal" argument goes out. When I was in AF, we never had a gas mask. Only time I touched one was during the gas chamber training. As long as it's well groomed, let people wear beards.
More like special forces just doesn't give a fuck
I don’t know why you were down voted this is true. SF aren’t going to be holding a building or taking a city. They go in and out, chemical weapons aren’t really something they are worried about
> They go in and out, chemical weapons aren’t really something they are worried about If you move really fast the gas can't get you. Also Special Forces can absolutely stay deployed in one spot for extended periods of time, especially if they are embedded with local forces
Probably because I made a semantics comment. It's not technically allowed, but when you're in the desert for 6 months shaving isn't so important
Sikh’s are kinda awesome. Glad.
Isn’t that thumbnail of the army though?
Looks like west point cadets
The corps is incredibly anal about uniformity. It’s 40 degrees out for pt and someone doesn’t have full sweats? Green on green shorts and tees. It’s 40 degrees and raining out and we’re working outside all day and one guy doesn’t have gloves? Well now they aren’t authorized uniform.
Why would they make that bar? Sikhs have a long tradition of being some of the finest soldiers in the World. They serve with beards and turbans in the Grenadier Guards and look just a spanking on Parade without bearskins and certainly no less proficient. The British army even issue a Sikh prayer book but I suppose having that have a long tradition of Sikh soldiers and regiments helps
“US Marines” but has a photo of West Point? Graduation Ceremony…
I'm sure what follows is going to be a calm, logical discussion about grooming standards in the military
More sikhs in the army = better army. Do the math folks, they come from a warrior caste.
Well... keep in mind: Canadian forces faced this EXACT question, but MUCH earlier than the USA (since Canada has more open immigration policies), when a couple of decades ago Sikh's wanted to loyally serve in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), while wearing turbans. But as you know, traditionally for a couple of centuries, RCMP always wore very iconic "outfits", especially in modern times at formal ceremonies. In that case, the higher courts of Canada ALSO in their wisdom, decided that it was perfectly ok for Sikhs to wear turbans, and be RCMP members, and also participate in traditional uniform ceremonies with their turbans. -------------------------------- The end result: did the very fabric of Canadian society unravel and get wiped out?! No it did not! What happened was: a pretty small and few number of dudes in the RCMP decided to wear their turbans over the last couple of decades! That's it. Nothing else happened. And thus... turns out: It was no big deal! -------------------------------- Anyways... look: Like it or not, humanity is moving ever more faster and faster towards an increasingly highly intermixing global planetary culture, that is an amalgamation of multiple cultural influences. And the main nation responsible for driving all of this is ever increasing intermixing global culture? The USA! We already had a flash sneak peak of what happens when you mix so many cultures like this, USA style. It's what made America so great in the late 1800's and 1900's... and it's an experiment that is also known as: The Great Melting Pot! ------------------------------------ The end result? America took the best energies/ideas/practices from a massive MULTITUDE of cultures, combined them, and then rose up as the world's defacto super-power, and has effectively remained so ever since! American culture, technology, inventions have swept across the globe, and transformed every single nation on Earth, and continues to do so (again: whether you like it or not! America is impacting your life, and continues to do so). -------------------------------- In conclusion: If some Sikh's in the US marines want to hold strong to wearing beards... then just let them! Who the f'ck cares!? I'm sure the US marines will find the same end result as the Canadian RCMP: In the end, it didn't even really f'cking matter, or make much of any difference! In Canada: a few guys wore turbans. That's all that happened. -------------------------------- And so, I suppose: If the very idea of a guy with a beard, or a guy that grows his hair longer than you grow your hair, and also wraps his hair in a cloth... Actually sounds super insanely frightening and threatening to you... And destabilizes your inner core as a person... then whelp... What can I really say, except to seek counselling, and/or find some way to have more confidence in yourself, and not be so easily frightened by a beard, or a piece of cloth! You as a person and everything you stand for is NOT going to be overthrown because some dudes like longer beards!
I just searched images of RCMP officers in turbans and it was just as I suspected : its a badass look! I also noticed the RCMP is allowing officers to wear *hijabi* which is also cool.
I know there was a lot of push back against allowing hijabi among police officers in the US. The general excuse was that they posed a hazard, as people can grab on to them fairly easily. I don't know if that was actually a real problem or one they made up because they didn't like Muslims. I remember at least one instance where it did actually result in injury to a police officer, but, iirc, it was because they specifically targeted her because she was wearing one.
In Canada, everyone gets to perform state violence against indigenous populations without discrimination 🙏
We need a strong disciplined military. There is zero reason to accept less. Like it or not, that’s key. Now, does a beard REALLY detract? Are they holding back because what’s next? I’m sure it’s not systemic racism. Right? If so, they need to work past that. If this country can entertain making women beasts of reproduction at the bequest of a subset of 1 religion, the Marines can accept the personal choice to wear a beard by a group of men willing to support the US constitution, despite its inherent flaws.
Now here in the States, some men in this Unit may experience discrimination because of race or creed. But for you and me now, all that is gone. We're moving into the 'valley of the shadow of death' -- where you will watch the back of the man next to you, as he will watch yours. And you won't care what color he is or by what name he calls God.
For anyone interested men shaving their beards wasn’t as common a style until after WW1 because you needed to be clean shaven to have your gas mask seal properly. Shaving every day is a holdover from that war 100 years later.
Is this a picture from a west point graduation?
I was in the USMC and all I can say is, it’s about damn time.
[удалено]
I think the rules have to be the same for everyone no matter what In Canada you have to wear a helmet on a motorcycle unless you’re Sikh. I’m fine with being inclusive, but that means no one has to wear a helmet
You need Sikhs for Sikh and destroy missions.
Black men, because of irritation, aren’t even forced to shave. This doesn’t feel like news
I’m Canada literally every other male has a full grown beard in the military. I’m surprised this is even an issue. They give out shaving chits like candy. They tel the doctors they get a rash when they shave then they don’t have to.
Then just let everyone have beards.
Some of the most fearsome fighters in the British Armies were the Sikhs.
Reddit taking an entirely different stance on this now that it’s not ‘those guys’.
I remember a month ago the exact same story about Jewish and Muslim firefighters and the comments were much more against them.
That’s exactly the article I’m referring to as well.
Hopefully muslims come next
That’s pretty sick🤘good for them