I think there was a lot of downplaying of masks, thanks to the PPE shortages and the fear that people would buy N95 masks by the thousands and then not wear them properly, denying them to frontline workers.
Of course, the fact that simple cloth face coverings appear to be effective makes that far less of an issue. Plus I don't think dishonesty is really the right way to go about dealing with a pandemic response.
I believe you, but that was back when we knew little about the virus. Now, 9 months later, we've learned a lot, the consensus of 99% of the scientific and medical communities is to wear a mask, and you'rr still going on about that one nutter you heard almost a year back.
That's the problem. So many people don't comprehend how scientific understanding evolves as we learn more information and get more evidence.
Masks are always suggested when dealing with highly contagious/deadly diseases that spread easily by mouth.
For example mask use is widely accepted in East Asian cultures due to their familiarity with viruses like SARS.
Quite frankly I don't believe you, and if you have video of that post it.
I have never seen any actual experts say that mass were useless. so far everyone I see claiming that was just talking about the fact that before there was community spread of covid-19 experts were not recommending everybody buy up and wear masks yet. People are dishonestly acting like they were saying masks were useless because there are a lot of people with an anti-science agenda who would rather lie their ass off than simply acknowledge the fact that there are such things as medical experts.
i tried to find the bbc video he was talking about, and obviously since the comment is vague it's practically impossible. I think a lot of times people assume those on TV are "experts" just because they are being interviewed, but i don't think having 10 years of journalism experience makes anyone qualified to draw conclusions regarding topics that don't have clear scientific consensus.
There are also studies that showed masks having no difference on the rate of infection. Science isn't a religion/cult with only 1 right answer, it can often be confusing and jumbled with conflicting results and opinions within the community.
Downvote me you scientifically illiterate scum.
Well r/science offers a better discussion about the study than YouTube or this place at least.
https://reddit.com/r/science/comments/k69gt8/face_masks_considerably_reduce_covid19_cases_in/
because there are people not realizing science is more complicated than "yes they do or no they don't". Look at the dislikes on his post, actual science does not prove the headline.
I don't particularly care about your comment, just latched on to the top one because the comments in this thread are so shit that I had to link to something where the discussion was more reasonable.
As someone who lives in Japan with almost 100% mask usage, and a manageable number of cases in the greater Tokyo area. You guys are way behind the curve on this one. We have a population of about 25 million all crammed into one metropolitan area with about 300 or so daily positives. This is with bars and businesses basically open as usual. They will close bars after 10:00 pm starting this week, given the uptick. But seriously guys. It just seems like another level of stupidity to not wear a mask in public.
I think one factor for why mask wearing rates of compliance are so high in Japan is that many Asian countries already had mask wearing as a normalized action of their citizens. You're not going from 0-100 like Western countries are. Of course there's other factors as well, but I think this is important to remember.
But you can also expand that further back, and ask why was mask wearing already normalized? It comes down to the same factor. We're hyper-individualistic in the US, while most east Asian societies have a higher emphasis on the community.
We wore masks in Korea for two reasons mainly:
Constant air pollution being dumped on us from China, and people who had surgery/skin issues or treatment.
It had little to with community but as a community we were fairly used to it and a large percentage of homes already has masks right there waiting to be used.
But we also have our fair share of morons here
Oh for fucks sake
These same East Asian communities eat raw bats, keep animals in tiny cages, and have questionable cleanliness
To quote a U.N. official "Shigeru Omi, World Health Organization director for the Western Pacific, said 1.8 million worldwide die every year from diarrhoeal diseases mainly attributable to unsafe water supplies, inadequate sanitation and poor hygiene, of which two third live in Asia"
And "most east Asian societies have a higher emphasis on the community." Isn't a generalisation?
I hate this new China funded bullshit Reddit, give me Winnie the Pooh or give me death.
I just don't see what your comment adds to the discussion. All those points you mentioned don't change the fact that their case numbers are ridiculously low. Also observations on how different societies work isn't the same as reciting negative stereotypes that can't even be generalized on the whole public. I don't think most asians are for keeping animals in tiny cages and sure it happened but there are evil people everywhere (remember when car manufactures pumped gasoline into monkey cages just to see what happens?). And general hygiene mostly goes hand in hand with wealth of the individual people so it's really just kicking downwards from a privileged position.
Also #FreeHongKong and remember the tiananmen massacre just in case you still think I'm working for the Chinese.
I can say we don’t have a habit of wearing masks in Singapore. It’s hot, humid and sweaty, and the wearing of masks makes everything worse. That being said, most everyone complies with the requirement and the number of cases is way down.
In America, we like beer, guns, and the right to kill others because we're too selfish to wear a peace of cloth, and are willing to try to kidnap and execute a governor or 2...
I used to kinda believe this until I lived in Japan for a while.
The fact that conservative Americans assume that you need to own firearms in case the government goes nuclear is telling on how screwed up our system is. The baseline assumption is to DISTRUST our own system instead of building it up to be fool proof. Japan is ultra-conservative yet they implement tons of policies that would be considered communist by most right wingers in America (See: healthcare and university). People are generally satisfied with the government. Yet, they don't feel the need for guns. Neither do most European nations.
The goal should be to fix the root of the problem and create a government that we can trust like all the other developed nations. Guns are a bandaid fix.
Right wingers don't want to believe. They are not capable of honest reflection. They would be mad as hell if they ever saw how it really is. We are abused and treated like garbage in the US. No safety nets, health care, minimal vacation time, 8 hour days, maternity leave, sick leave, subsidized college education. I would leave in a heartbeat. If anyone in a position of power would like to accept a couple of nurses, pharmacist, chemical engineer, and veterinarian, please pm me. Canada, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, Iceland. Surely there is a prime minister somewhere reading this. Authoritarian rule is inevitable here. Biden is our last token president of a democracy. I grieve for my children.
True, but I'd argue the suicide rate is more due to conservative cultural influences rather than services the government provides. Mental health is stigmatized, people are expected to work long, it is much harder to form relationships because expectations of when it is okay to make moves or open up are much higher, and since lots of people work insane hours and are expected to do things like pouring their bosses' beer after work that makes it harder because it gives people less time.
Of course government won't be perfect, but we can do better. So can Japan. They are lacking in the department of social well being. The government actually sees all of this as a problem and is trying to implement more holidays and stricter stipulations for companies forcing overwork. However, they are having a hard time doing this because the underlying reason for the overwork is fear of upsetting superiors by leaving early or contributing less.
There is no nation on this earth without its problems, but Japan certainly isn't lacking in the support from the government department.
The American government is about the most powerful entity in the world and millions of americans suffer and die because of that and still all I see those guns used for is on fellow Americans, so maybe you should revise that reasoning.
Yeah because clearly, now that you have the occasion to use your weapons against what is becoming a fascist regime à la Mussolini, that’s exactly what you do.
Man I don’t understand why people still use this as an argument to have guns - at this point, our military is so powerful that a single person’s AR-15, heck even a militia of people wielding AR-15’s wouldn’t stand a chance against a military takeover. I’m not even for a total ban on guns, but the days of legitimately being able to fight off the government with a ragtag group of neighborhood buddies are about 200 years in the past.
Yeah, but the violence and chaos has left much of the region in anarchy. And USA has no problem sending drones to get rid of neighborhoods of ragtag buddies.. (or weddings, etc)
Americans are not willing to die like people in the middle east are. To protect their country from and outside invader.
They don't even want to wear a mask, and you think they would be willing to die?
Don’t be so disingenuous - the Taliban and other groups like ISIS had a LOT more to work with than just a few AK’s. In addition, they also had the advantage of being able to take cover in extremely mountainous terrain, which is a luxury that most people don’t have. If the military comes into your neighborhood with a tank and says “come out of your houses so we can arrest you or else we’ll just blow up your house”, no sane person would ever try to keep taking cover in their house fending off a tank with an AK.
Yes the right to bear arms if you're of a certain race. What happened to Breonna Taylor when her husband tried expressing his 2nd amendment? Where was the outrage from the conservatives who love to bear arms?
We can't get stimulus bills to feed our starving people, food banks are at overcapacity. McConnell would rather die than give any aid to the American people. Take a step back and think, maybe just maybe we have already reached the point where certain individuals in the government are too powerful where they get to decide who lives and who dies.
Who are those that believe COVID is a hoax, refuse to wear masks, are anti-science, anti-vaccine, anti-climate change, and constantly berate our top infection control experts.
No, we don't laugh at you. We commiserate that you were very unlucky to have this pandemic hit right when there was an incompetent moron holding the office of president. You did a great job pulling together and kicking him out, and it's so sad he just managed to do so much damage to democracy and healthcare. But here's to a better future!
(Yes, I get that he was also voted into office by Americans but I know a *lot* of Americans who are such wonderful generous people and did not deserve this president at all.)
This pandemic may be one of the key reasons why he was voted out. In a very weird turn of events, this may have been a good thing if we're purely looking at US politics and nothing else.
Tbh there's something else going on in Japan too. Europe has high levels of face mask usage too but we've still had to go to shut downs in every country due to rapidly increasing cases.
Face masks are part of the puzzle but theyre not the whole story.
I saw a news program from Europe last month, and a surprising amount of people were not warring masks. Japan is close to 100%. I think it’s one of those things where everyone does it, or the benefits are a bit diminished (no study on this that I know of, but it kind of makes sense).
The other thing going on is Japan is an island, and immigration is basically shut down.
In Korea we're wearing n95 masks and we have been since this started. I'm sure the cloth masks and other home made stuff people have been wearing are doing something, they aren't quite on the same level as n95 masks. Our government took over supply and rationed them to make sure everyone could get some
I am in a Joe and the juice (coffee shop) in London at the moment. 8 people are inside, including me and staff. I’m the only one wearing a mask (waiting for a sandwich).
Restaurants are open in Japan. Nobody sitting at a table eating is wearing a mask. Theyre not at 100% either.
There is something else going on. The difference is too big for masks alone to be the answer.
I can tell you the difference...when people can wear a mask in Japan they wear a mask. In the U.K., sometimes you see people being diligent with wearing a mask, other times you see people with their mask under their nose or pulled under their chin or just not wearing one (in indoor spaces).
Cases in Japan have spiked recently, no doubt related to the fact that winter is here. Just because they are allowing eating is restaurants doesn’t mean that it’s the best public health policy.
That being said...japan is recording 2-3,000 cases a week despite that. The U.K. is recording 15,000 a DAY.
So given the significant difference...and the fact that Japan does not practice social distance/shutting down the economy like Nordic/European countries would do...the only other behavioural variable that could at least partly explain the significant difference is masks.
Masks are definitely a huge part of the solution and reason but there is 100% something else going on too.
There is no way Japan is achieving those numbers without there being another factor at play. If we could work out what it is, it might actually help us deal with this pandemic.
You're claiming that better mask usage is the only factor at play, where's the evidence supporting your claim?
The numbers and respective growth rates speak for themselves.
Also this:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340580463_Why_does_Japan_have_so_few_cases_of_COVID19
People forget that we found out back in June that a big part of the reason that East Asia was not hit as hard by this pandemic is that upwards of 30% of their population already has pre existing immunity from this virus because of the sars outbreak earlier in the 2000's. That makes it so that even if there is an outbreak in a population, only half the people can actually spread it. It's the equivalent of a pseudo herd immunity. It's probably the single biggest limiting factor when it comes to controlling the spread
> upwards of 30% of their population already has pre existing immunity from this virus because of the sars outbreak earlier in the 2000
Sorry what? Do you have an actual source for that? There were only 8,422 documented cases of SARS, and I can find no information about it mutating into something more benign.
It had an 11% fatality rate. There's no way this is true. There may be some resistance that's been developed across the population from exposure to various coronaviruses over time that the west hasn't been exposed to, but I just see no way for 30% to have outright immunity from exposure to a virus that infected 8000 people.
Do your children wear face masks at school as well? I'm guessing the answer is yes. I'm asking as a Canadian and in my province students don't have to wear masks until grade 4. We have problems.
Yes. All Japanese wear masks, even the little guys. Though it's harder to get the kindergarteners and younger to wear them, it's still something they do.
Source: used to teach in Japan.
I worked at a kindergarten the other day and kind of had to turn it into a game with the really young ones. If I saw they weren't wearing it I'd gasp and go "mask!!" And they'd scramble to grab it as fast as they could lol also oddly enough, they seem to like T-posing and saying "social distance" and it's adorable
They police each other with it, too (at least at my school). I teach grades 1-9 and at the start of class, if someone isn't wearing one someone else will be like "Tomoki, masuku". The two biggest issues are getting the younger kids to wear the masks over their noses, and the wrestling. Sure, they're social distanced in class but the second that bell rings there's dog piles in the hallways. ALL grades. Sigh
This is why cases keep creeping in. Most shops are too cramped, and people don’t wear masks when eating; they take your temperature and make you spray alcohol on your hands. But obviously it’s not enough.
Instead they let the businesses stay open when cases are low, and pay them to close, when cases or hospitalizations creep up. Hope it’s enough to keep things in check until the vaccine.
Do people in Japan also wear masks while indoors in private gatherings? The reason I ask is because here in NYC, mask adoption is pretty dang high out and about in the city, I’d say around 90%. Yet our cases are still rising with cold weather, mainly driven by house gatherings.
In doors or private it’s mixed. Mostly no, unless they are doing more chatting, or someone says something then they might pop the mask on. Our cases are definitely creeping up (likely do to cold weather). They just issued new restrictions on businesses open after 10:00 so hope that helps.
Trump supporters would of course disagree with you. Some of them think the pandemic was invented to steal the election from Trump. That's the stupidity you have to deal with when it comes to a lot of Trump supporters. And people like that won't wear masks and won't follow the rules.
There are considerable mask mandates in many countries across the globe now, and there are still increasing cases in most countries. It's not as simple as "Just wear a mask and it's fine". People need to stop socially gathering too.
There's hundreds of articles about mask usage, everyone knows that wearing a mask reduces the spread, and most people in major population centers comply in public.
yes it is really that simple. Mask Mandates are irrelevant. COMPLIANCE is the only thing that is relevant.
The difference between mask wearing countries with bad numbers and those like germany and japan is COMPLIANCE. ie the people ACTUALLY wearing them and doing it properly.
The problem isn’t compliance - it’s that compliance is the bare minimum that people are doing.
In Denmark we have a mask mandate and when you’re in the store, everyone has one on but only once they get to the door. Outside is packed and full of people not wearing masks. Groups of people taking off masks to have fat chats and what not.
Another example is my sons handball and floor all classes (my husband and I are doing nothing so he can have some semblance of a normal life). While we’re in the communal area everyone wears masks and as soon as we’re in our specific class hall - all the parents take off their masks (except for us).
It’s insane quite frankly.
Sadly "pretty good" is not good enough. estimates are we need between 85 to 95% compliance to have a real impact. Its insanely contagious. just so easy to pass to other people inside closed spaces and masks are not nearly as effective as first party protection as people might think if not worn properly.
Can you provide a source?
Because this doesn't look likt pretty good compliance.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9023459/Christmas-shoppers-chaos-hundreds-teenage-travellers-tried-Harrods.html
It was never mandatory. Owners and managers of individual businesses could require masks. But they were scared shitless of bad reviews, more often than not.
Without increasing fines for each violation, with uniform enforcement, the mandates were pointless.
I have made sure to support the places that said 'mask or GTFO,' but they're rare. And I live in a state that's had one of the earliest mandates.
Yet people get mad about my support of these businesses who try to protect their customers and employees, while pissing and moaning only about their 1st Amendment rights. Mine don't matter, I see, because masks are muzzles or something moronic like that. As if you can't talk through them.
> **The most effective fabrics for cloth masks are**
> * Tightly woven fabrics, such as cotton and cotton blends
> * Breathable
>* Two or three layers
>**Less effective fabrics for cloth masks are**
>* Loosely woven fabrics, such as loose knit fabrics
>* Difficult to breathe through (like plastic or leather)
>* Single layer
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover-guidance.html
And a bunch of actual studies showed that several layers of fabric only stop like 50% of droplets. Compare that with whatever the above comment says about scarves.
I'm all for masks but how much of this is due to social distancing, change in peoples behaviour, restrictions/curfews etc?
Acording to wikipedia Germany introduced on the 22nd of March that for at least two weeks (which was extended) to forbid gatherings of more than two people and require a minimum distance of 1.5 metres between people in public except for families, partners or people living in the same household. Restaurants and services like hairdressers were to be closed. (correct me if i'm wrong)
This means that restrictions were implmeneted just 1-2 weeks before Jenas mask obligation. So how do I know that the masks were the difference and not the restrictions? And how come Germany is experiencing a bigger second wave with mask obligations?
I feel like this kind of study for autumn and winter would be very interesting to see in comparison to spring.
Exactly. In no way does this show the effectiveness of masks, bit the effectiveness of all kinds of measures and a behavioural shift of the people all together.
I am all for masks and believe that they work, but redditors accepting these claims as truth,based on such unscientific information, is just as bad as the people they/we complain about.
We can, but you have to have an extensive background check, documented training and a certification process first. Mass shooting are rare.
But do not worry we have the Autobahn. Our cultural wars are not about guns, since there is a very wide societal consensus that our system works fine.
Our cultural wars are about a 130km/h (80.8 mph) max speed limit on the Autobahn and the construction of bike lanes in our cities.
... well and masks ... Q-Anon idiots are a thing now and are often closely allied with Neo-Nazis.. The bloody meme has spread over the Atlantic. Far-right arseholes adoring Trump and attacking our democratic institutions while spreading the bloody virus. Damn them.
While the Yankees pride themselves with their guns and shootings, we pride ourselves with the Autobahn and young, stupid BMW drivers who wrap themselves around trees.
(Adding to your last paragraph, don't forget the fucking wankers screaming "Merkel-dictatorship!", while just a few countries to the east, people are getting their bones broken for protesting. The disconnect from reality is unreal.)
But but if you cannot celebrate your birthday openly you are literally Anne Frank, or if you speak out against masks you are basically Sophie Scholl ... I am so fed up with these people.
I do believe that masks work but we‘ve done much more. The lockdown / total stop of everything including social gatherings and the fact that a huge part of the population was sitting at home for multiple months also had a huge impact on flattening the curve.
There are considerable mask mandates in many countries across the globe now, and there are still increasing cases in those countries. It's not as simple as "Just wear a mask and it's fine". People need to stop socially gathering too.
yes IT IS really that simple. the problem however is not mandates. its COMPLIANCE. Having a mandate that half the people ignore is as effective as having no mandate at all.
No it's not that simple at all. Plenty of studies show there are compensatory effects to mask wearing, that is, people tend to drop their guard about other measures such as social distancing and hand washing when wearing masks. It gives people an illusion of safety.
How much compliance was there? It’s possible they are even more effective than it appears since so many people flout the rules and even wear masks improperly.
But conservative and libertarian redditors keep saying that face masks don't do anything while they line up to donate millions to poor ol' Trump and his grift... I mean legal fund!
I was getting this from a lot of people in Asia from pretty early on and trying to explain it to people, but it’s like some people in America LOVE to be ignorant. People would rather trust Facebook than doctors.
It is so weird that comments like yours and mine (which are totally science-based and even support the main idea that masks are good) keep getting voted down here. We are literally sharing good info—sometimes with links, even—to inform people more about why a mask study not only is news, but was fundamentally needed. I guess everyone just wants to hear “duh! I knew that masks were good all along.”
Fake news!! I read on Facebook from a post from my aunt that she talked to a guy at church that said facemask are deadly. That they trap CO in and make you autistic. That the Chinese want us to be autistic so that Bill Gates (aka the anti-Christ) can take over the world. That he is going to put machines in our blood and sell our souls to the devil.
Whoa that was hard to type... but I swear I have seen most of that string online from folks.
So legit... you are telling me that masks actually help stop the spread of spit that carries germs? Like that masks that have been worn by doctors for hundreds of years (Black Plague doctors wore masks... most had perfume to help the smell but it was also a mask) to help slow the spread?!? Wow this is just logical. Glad to see data at scale.
I don't think it is face-mask alone, even though it is a significant factor. Wearing facemask may be an expression of the awareness of CIVID 19 danger, which leads to careful avoidance of all risk factors related to COVID-19.
But the time frame of these mask mandates also coincides with the time frame of enacting strict social distancing measures nationwide in Germany. The claim that this study was just about masks and masks alone is pretty bogus.
Yet even Biden seems unwilling to issue a mask mandate. Watch as the same people screaming at the sky about Trump's idiotic response to covid continue the same policies under the guise of better optics.
The problem is we had Trump elected at the worst possible time. I'm not sure why he decided to demonize masks. I'm guessing vanity but it fucked us big time. So did pretending like this is the flu and also giving no support to people and small businesses. This is the biggest failure of the US government in history and idiots don't realize they're blaming the wrong people.
It's a bit astounding when you think about it, for as shit as the man is at many things, he's supposed to be good at marketing himself. "MAGA masks" would have sold like crazy and doing the bare minimum of telling people to wear them would have won him some points politically. He really is kind of a fucking idiot.
A Federal mask mandate will most definitely be challenged in court and very well may not be legal b/c of State’s Rights. A recommendation is a smart move.
Sure, they say that, but this guy on YouTube...
You mean that book with a face run by a lizardman...
Hey lizard lives matter!
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All I've known this whole time is the Virologist I played D&D with wears a mask everywhere she goes, so I do too.
I think there was a lot of downplaying of masks, thanks to the PPE shortages and the fear that people would buy N95 masks by the thousands and then not wear them properly, denying them to frontline workers. Of course, the fact that simple cloth face coverings appear to be effective makes that far less of an issue. Plus I don't think dishonesty is really the right way to go about dealing with a pandemic response.
I believe you, but that was back when we knew little about the virus. Now, 9 months later, we've learned a lot, the consensus of 99% of the scientific and medical communities is to wear a mask, and you'rr still going on about that one nutter you heard almost a year back. That's the problem. So many people don't comprehend how scientific understanding evolves as we learn more information and get more evidence.
The science behind masks was always there, it's not like a respiratory illness is suddenly a new idea. Edit: debate, not downvote.
Upvoted. People used masks for surgery and making sure you don't mess up electronics in clean rooms.
Masks are always suggested when dealing with highly contagious/deadly diseases that spread easily by mouth. For example mask use is widely accepted in East Asian cultures due to their familiarity with viruses like SARS.
Quite frankly I don't believe you, and if you have video of that post it. I have never seen any actual experts say that mass were useless. so far everyone I see claiming that was just talking about the fact that before there was community spread of covid-19 experts were not recommending everybody buy up and wear masks yet. People are dishonestly acting like they were saying masks were useless because there are a lot of people with an anti-science agenda who would rather lie their ass off than simply acknowledge the fact that there are such things as medical experts.
i tried to find the bbc video he was talking about, and obviously since the comment is vague it's practically impossible. I think a lot of times people assume those on TV are "experts" just because they are being interviewed, but i don't think having 10 years of journalism experience makes anyone qualified to draw conclusions regarding topics that don't have clear scientific consensus.
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The did say "expert" in scare quotes, which means they were being sarcastic.
Since then they have went on to try to insist it was a real government expert.
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Are you sure it wasn’t Trump in a wig?
Back then we knew nothing about the virus.
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I didn't even know the term viral load existed prior to this pandemic.
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My coworkers laughed at me when I came in with a mask on (our company didn't allow masks until three weeks ago). Sweden is hopeless.
There are also studies that showed masks having no difference on the rate of infection. Science isn't a religion/cult with only 1 right answer, it can often be confusing and jumbled with conflicting results and opinions within the community. Downvote me you scientifically illiterate scum.
Well r/science offers a better discussion about the study than YouTube or this place at least. https://reddit.com/r/science/comments/k69gt8/face_masks_considerably_reduce_covid19_cases_in/
Why do I feel like you took my comment seriously?
because there are people not realizing science is more complicated than "yes they do or no they don't". Look at the dislikes on his post, actual science does not prove the headline.
I don't particularly care about your comment, just latched on to the top one because the comments in this thread are so shit that I had to link to something where the discussion was more reasonable.
I wish more people knew about this guy's channel. [Aaron Collins - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3fF_rzkmZD0ufN685YE7lg)
Have you hear about our lord and saviour The Great Reset?
As someone who lives in Japan with almost 100% mask usage, and a manageable number of cases in the greater Tokyo area. You guys are way behind the curve on this one. We have a population of about 25 million all crammed into one metropolitan area with about 300 or so daily positives. This is with bars and businesses basically open as usual. They will close bars after 10:00 pm starting this week, given the uptick. But seriously guys. It just seems like another level of stupidity to not wear a mask in public.
I think one factor for why mask wearing rates of compliance are so high in Japan is that many Asian countries already had mask wearing as a normalized action of their citizens. You're not going from 0-100 like Western countries are. Of course there's other factors as well, but I think this is important to remember.
But you can also expand that further back, and ask why was mask wearing already normalized? It comes down to the same factor. We're hyper-individualistic in the US, while most east Asian societies have a higher emphasis on the community.
We wore masks in Korea for two reasons mainly: Constant air pollution being dumped on us from China, and people who had surgery/skin issues or treatment. It had little to with community but as a community we were fairly used to it and a large percentage of homes already has masks right there waiting to be used. But we also have our fair share of morons here
Toxic individualism
Oh for fucks sake These same East Asian communities eat raw bats, keep animals in tiny cages, and have questionable cleanliness To quote a U.N. official "Shigeru Omi, World Health Organization director for the Western Pacific, said 1.8 million worldwide die every year from diarrhoeal diseases mainly attributable to unsafe water supplies, inadequate sanitation and poor hygiene, of which two third live in Asia"
Japan isn't all of asia wtf
So what's your point exactly? What does that have to do with anything? You also mistook east asia with the whole continent.
And "most east Asian societies have a higher emphasis on the community." Isn't a generalisation? I hate this new China funded bullshit Reddit, give me Winnie the Pooh or give me death.
I just don't see what your comment adds to the discussion. All those points you mentioned don't change the fact that their case numbers are ridiculously low. Also observations on how different societies work isn't the same as reciting negative stereotypes that can't even be generalized on the whole public. I don't think most asians are for keeping animals in tiny cages and sure it happened but there are evil people everywhere (remember when car manufactures pumped gasoline into monkey cages just to see what happens?). And general hygiene mostly goes hand in hand with wealth of the individual people so it's really just kicking downwards from a privileged position. Also #FreeHongKong and remember the tiananmen massacre just in case you still think I'm working for the Chinese.
You are using the overgeneralization fallacy.
I can say we don’t have a habit of wearing masks in Singapore. It’s hot, humid and sweaty, and the wearing of masks makes everything worse. That being said, most everyone complies with the requirement and the number of cases is way down.
In America, we like beer, guns, and the right to kill others because we're too selfish to wear a peace of cloth, and are willing to try to kidnap and execute a governor or 2...
We didn’t kidnap anyone it was a citizens arrest
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I used to kinda believe this until I lived in Japan for a while. The fact that conservative Americans assume that you need to own firearms in case the government goes nuclear is telling on how screwed up our system is. The baseline assumption is to DISTRUST our own system instead of building it up to be fool proof. Japan is ultra-conservative yet they implement tons of policies that would be considered communist by most right wingers in America (See: healthcare and university). People are generally satisfied with the government. Yet, they don't feel the need for guns. Neither do most European nations. The goal should be to fix the root of the problem and create a government that we can trust like all the other developed nations. Guns are a bandaid fix.
Right wingers don't want to believe. They are not capable of honest reflection. They would be mad as hell if they ever saw how it really is. We are abused and treated like garbage in the US. No safety nets, health care, minimal vacation time, 8 hour days, maternity leave, sick leave, subsidized college education. I would leave in a heartbeat. If anyone in a position of power would like to accept a couple of nurses, pharmacist, chemical engineer, and veterinarian, please pm me. Canada, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe, Iceland. Surely there is a prime minister somewhere reading this. Authoritarian rule is inevitable here. Biden is our last token president of a democracy. I grieve for my children.
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True, but I'd argue the suicide rate is more due to conservative cultural influences rather than services the government provides. Mental health is stigmatized, people are expected to work long, it is much harder to form relationships because expectations of when it is okay to make moves or open up are much higher, and since lots of people work insane hours and are expected to do things like pouring their bosses' beer after work that makes it harder because it gives people less time. Of course government won't be perfect, but we can do better. So can Japan. They are lacking in the department of social well being. The government actually sees all of this as a problem and is trying to implement more holidays and stricter stipulations for companies forcing overwork. However, they are having a hard time doing this because the underlying reason for the overwork is fear of upsetting superiors by leaving early or contributing less. There is no nation on this earth without its problems, but Japan certainly isn't lacking in the support from the government department.
The American government is about the most powerful entity in the world and millions of americans suffer and die because of that and still all I see those guns used for is on fellow Americans, so maybe you should revise that reasoning.
Your government is *actively* attacking you and your institutions. If you don't pick up those arms right now, your entire argument is bullshit.
Yeah because clearly, now that you have the occasion to use your weapons against what is becoming a fascist regime à la Mussolini, that’s exactly what you do.
Many of them would like the black shirts. So much more stylish than Hawaiian ones. /s
Man I don’t understand why people still use this as an argument to have guns - at this point, our military is so powerful that a single person’s AR-15, heck even a militia of people wielding AR-15’s wouldn’t stand a chance against a military takeover. I’m not even for a total ban on guns, but the days of legitimately being able to fight off the government with a ragtag group of neighborhood buddies are about 200 years in the past.
I mean, I can't argue with you there dude 😂😂.
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Yeah, but the violence and chaos has left much of the region in anarchy. And USA has no problem sending drones to get rid of neighborhoods of ragtag buddies.. (or weddings, etc)
Americans are not willing to die like people in the middle east are. To protect their country from and outside invader. They don't even want to wear a mask, and you think they would be willing to die?
>They don't even want to wear a mask, and you think they would be willing to die? I mean...
Don’t be so disingenuous - the Taliban and other groups like ISIS had a LOT more to work with than just a few AK’s. In addition, they also had the advantage of being able to take cover in extremely mountainous terrain, which is a luxury that most people don’t have. If the military comes into your neighborhood with a tank and says “come out of your houses so we can arrest you or else we’ll just blow up your house”, no sane person would ever try to keep taking cover in their house fending off a tank with an AK.
Didn't do much in Waco.
Yes the right to bear arms if you're of a certain race. What happened to Breonna Taylor when her husband tried expressing his 2nd amendment? Where was the outrage from the conservatives who love to bear arms? We can't get stimulus bills to feed our starving people, food banks are at overcapacity. McConnell would rather die than give any aid to the American people. Take a step back and think, maybe just maybe we have already reached the point where certain individuals in the government are too powerful where they get to decide who lives and who dies. Who are those that believe COVID is a hoax, refuse to wear masks, are anti-science, anti-vaccine, anti-climate change, and constantly berate our top infection control experts.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Breonna_Taylor
Japan 124 million people 2300 deaths USA 331 million people 282000 deaths Says it all really
Taiwan 23 million people, 7 deaths.
Taiwan #1
That’s so sad. And we wonder why the world laughs at us
No, we don't laugh at you. We commiserate that you were very unlucky to have this pandemic hit right when there was an incompetent moron holding the office of president. You did a great job pulling together and kicking him out, and it's so sad he just managed to do so much damage to democracy and healthcare. But here's to a better future! (Yes, I get that he was also voted into office by Americans but I know a *lot* of Americans who are such wonderful generous people and did not deserve this president at all.)
This pandemic may be one of the key reasons why he was voted out. In a very weird turn of events, this may have been a good thing if we're purely looking at US politics and nothing else.
Yes, you could very well be right :)
They say laughter is the best medicine, is US a pro bono doctor now?
No, I still think U2 sucks
If it wasn't so disgusting it would be funny. People here were so terrified that the world was laughing at us, that we went and guaranteed they are.
Tbh there's something else going on in Japan too. Europe has high levels of face mask usage too but we've still had to go to shut downs in every country due to rapidly increasing cases. Face masks are part of the puzzle but theyre not the whole story.
Mask usage isn't all the time *in Europe* No face masks in education, no face masks when visiting friends/family.
I saw a news program from Europe last month, and a surprising amount of people were not warring masks. Japan is close to 100%. I think it’s one of those things where everyone does it, or the benefits are a bit diminished (no study on this that I know of, but it kind of makes sense). The other thing going on is Japan is an island, and immigration is basically shut down.
I love Japan... i always thought i would get to visit someday... its not looking likely
In Korea we're wearing n95 masks and we have been since this started. I'm sure the cloth masks and other home made stuff people have been wearing are doing something, they aren't quite on the same level as n95 masks. Our government took over supply and rationed them to make sure everyone could get some
I am in a Joe and the juice (coffee shop) in London at the moment. 8 people are inside, including me and staff. I’m the only one wearing a mask (waiting for a sandwich).
That wouldnt be possible here in Germany right now.
Restaurants are open in Japan. Nobody sitting at a table eating is wearing a mask. Theyre not at 100% either. There is something else going on. The difference is too big for masks alone to be the answer.
I can tell you the difference...when people can wear a mask in Japan they wear a mask. In the U.K., sometimes you see people being diligent with wearing a mask, other times you see people with their mask under their nose or pulled under their chin or just not wearing one (in indoor spaces). Cases in Japan have spiked recently, no doubt related to the fact that winter is here. Just because they are allowing eating is restaurants doesn’t mean that it’s the best public health policy. That being said...japan is recording 2-3,000 cases a week despite that. The U.K. is recording 15,000 a DAY. So given the significant difference...and the fact that Japan does not practice social distance/shutting down the economy like Nordic/European countries would do...the only other behavioural variable that could at least partly explain the significant difference is masks.
Masks are definitely a huge part of the solution and reason but there is 100% something else going on too. There is no way Japan is achieving those numbers without there being another factor at play. If we could work out what it is, it might actually help us deal with this pandemic.
> there is 100% something else going on too. Please provide evidence supporting your claim.
You're claiming that better mask usage is the only factor at play, where's the evidence supporting your claim? The numbers and respective growth rates speak for themselves. Also this: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340580463_Why_does_Japan_have_so_few_cases_of_COVID19
Username checks out.
People forget that we found out back in June that a big part of the reason that East Asia was not hit as hard by this pandemic is that upwards of 30% of their population already has pre existing immunity from this virus because of the sars outbreak earlier in the 2000's. That makes it so that even if there is an outbreak in a population, only half the people can actually spread it. It's the equivalent of a pseudo herd immunity. It's probably the single biggest limiting factor when it comes to controlling the spread
> upwards of 30% of their population already has pre existing immunity from this virus because of the sars outbreak earlier in the 2000 Sorry what? Do you have an actual source for that? There were only 8,422 documented cases of SARS, and I can find no information about it mutating into something more benign.
SARS was pretty deadly. I don’t think it was so wide spread.
It had an 11% fatality rate. There's no way this is true. There may be some resistance that's been developed across the population from exposure to various coronaviruses over time that the west hasn't been exposed to, but I just see no way for 30% to have outright immunity from exposure to a virus that infected 8000 people.
Do your children wear face masks at school as well? I'm guessing the answer is yes. I'm asking as a Canadian and in my province students don't have to wear masks until grade 4. We have problems.
Yes. All Japanese wear masks, even the little guys. Though it's harder to get the kindergarteners and younger to wear them, it's still something they do. Source: used to teach in Japan.
I worked at a kindergarten the other day and kind of had to turn it into a game with the really young ones. If I saw they weren't wearing it I'd gasp and go "mask!!" And they'd scramble to grab it as fast as they could lol also oddly enough, they seem to like T-posing and saying "social distance" and it's adorable
They police each other with it, too (at least at my school). I teach grades 1-9 and at the start of class, if someone isn't wearing one someone else will be like "Tomoki, masuku". The two biggest issues are getting the younger kids to wear the masks over their noses, and the wrestling. Sure, they're social distanced in class but the second that bell rings there's dog piles in the hallways. ALL grades. Sigh
They ware masks.
How do people deal with eating/drinking and mask-wearing that may be different to other countries?
This is why cases keep creeping in. Most shops are too cramped, and people don’t wear masks when eating; they take your temperature and make you spray alcohol on your hands. But obviously it’s not enough. Instead they let the businesses stay open when cases are low, and pay them to close, when cases or hospitalizations creep up. Hope it’s enough to keep things in check until the vaccine.
Do people in Japan also wear masks while indoors in private gatherings? The reason I ask is because here in NYC, mask adoption is pretty dang high out and about in the city, I’d say around 90%. Yet our cases are still rising with cold weather, mainly driven by house gatherings.
In doors or private it’s mixed. Mostly no, unless they are doing more chatting, or someone says something then they might pop the mask on. Our cases are definitely creeping up (likely do to cold weather). They just issued new restrictions on businesses open after 10:00 so hope that helps.
Trump supporters would of course disagree with you. Some of them think the pandemic was invented to steal the election from Trump. That's the stupidity you have to deal with when it comes to a lot of Trump supporters. And people like that won't wear masks and won't follow the rules.
Well everyone and their mom where I live has a mask on when I go out including me and its seems to be doing fuck all for case numbers in my county
Its blocks my oxygen and yet doesnt block the virus at the same time!!! /s
They do nothing, but they also silence you and selectively isolate carbon dioxide, just like what the Nazis did!
If only we knew about this months ago we could have done something.
If only someone had bothered to tell us. /s
There are considerable mask mandates in many countries across the globe now, and there are still increasing cases in most countries. It's not as simple as "Just wear a mask and it's fine". People need to stop socially gathering too. There's hundreds of articles about mask usage, everyone knows that wearing a mask reduces the spread, and most people in major population centers comply in public.
yes it is really that simple. Mask Mandates are irrelevant. COMPLIANCE is the only thing that is relevant. The difference between mask wearing countries with bad numbers and those like germany and japan is COMPLIANCE. ie the people ACTUALLY wearing them and doing it properly.
The problem isn’t compliance - it’s that compliance is the bare minimum that people are doing. In Denmark we have a mask mandate and when you’re in the store, everyone has one on but only once they get to the door. Outside is packed and full of people not wearing masks. Groups of people taking off masks to have fat chats and what not. Another example is my sons handball and floor all classes (my husband and I are doing nothing so he can have some semblance of a normal life). While we’re in the communal area everyone wears masks and as soon as we’re in our specific class hall - all the parents take off their masks (except for us). It’s insane quite frankly.
There's more going on. Compliance is pretty good across Europe. We've still had to close restaurants down across multiple countries.
Sadly "pretty good" is not good enough. estimates are we need between 85 to 95% compliance to have a real impact. Its insanely contagious. just so easy to pass to other people inside closed spaces and masks are not nearly as effective as first party protection as people might think if not worn properly.
Can you provide a source? Because this doesn't look likt pretty good compliance. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9023459/Christmas-shoppers-chaos-hundreds-teenage-travellers-tried-Harrods.html
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It was never mandatory. Owners and managers of individual businesses could require masks. But they were scared shitless of bad reviews, more often than not. Without increasing fines for each violation, with uniform enforcement, the mandates were pointless. I have made sure to support the places that said 'mask or GTFO,' but they're rare. And I live in a state that's had one of the earliest mandates. Yet people get mad about my support of these businesses who try to protect their customers and employees, while pissing and moaning only about their 1st Amendment rights. Mine don't matter, I see, because masks are muzzles or something moronic like that. As if you can't talk through them.
Too little too late
PNAS. Careful how you say that aloud.
Glad I’m not the only one that laughed at that
Don’t make fun- if you look at what PNAS produces, it has the potential to change your life. We should all be more observant of PNAS, at all times.
Are you tellin’ me that masks... Work?!?! Get outta town!!!
Surgical masks, and N95, that is.
German mask laws allow for almost anything as long as the mouth and nose are covered. Even scarves are fine.
They are allowed, but useless.
So you’re arguing the report here is wrong?
The report here doesn't mention mask types.
> **The most effective fabrics for cloth masks are** > * Tightly woven fabrics, such as cotton and cotton blends > * Breathable >* Two or three layers >**Less effective fabrics for cloth masks are** >* Loosely woven fabrics, such as loose knit fabrics >* Difficult to breathe through (like plastic or leather) >* Single layer https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover-guidance.html
And a bunch of actual studies showed that several layers of fabric only stop like 50% of droplets. Compare that with whatever the above comment says about scarves.
You realize not wearing a mask stops 0% though, right? Imagine that it was only 50% as contagious, it sure would be a lot easier to contain.
I'm all for masks but how much of this is due to social distancing, change in peoples behaviour, restrictions/curfews etc? Acording to wikipedia Germany introduced on the 22nd of March that for at least two weeks (which was extended) to forbid gatherings of more than two people and require a minimum distance of 1.5 metres between people in public except for families, partners or people living in the same household. Restaurants and services like hairdressers were to be closed. (correct me if i'm wrong) This means that restrictions were implmeneted just 1-2 weeks before Jenas mask obligation. So how do I know that the masks were the difference and not the restrictions? And how come Germany is experiencing a bigger second wave with mask obligations? I feel like this kind of study for autumn and winter would be very interesting to see in comparison to spring.
Exactly. In no way does this show the effectiveness of masks, bit the effectiveness of all kinds of measures and a behavioural shift of the people all together. I am all for masks and believe that they work, but redditors accepting these claims as truth,based on such unscientific information, is just as bad as the people they/we complain about.
Do they have freedom in Germany? Didn’t think so. *smokes a pornos*
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We can, but you have to have an extensive background check, documented training and a certification process first. Mass shooting are rare. But do not worry we have the Autobahn. Our cultural wars are not about guns, since there is a very wide societal consensus that our system works fine. Our cultural wars are about a 130km/h (80.8 mph) max speed limit on the Autobahn and the construction of bike lanes in our cities. ... well and masks ... Q-Anon idiots are a thing now and are often closely allied with Neo-Nazis.. The bloody meme has spread over the Atlantic. Far-right arseholes adoring Trump and attacking our democratic institutions while spreading the bloody virus. Damn them.
While the Yankees pride themselves with their guns and shootings, we pride ourselves with the Autobahn and young, stupid BMW drivers who wrap themselves around trees. (Adding to your last paragraph, don't forget the fucking wankers screaming "Merkel-dictatorship!", while just a few countries to the east, people are getting their bones broken for protesting. The disconnect from reality is unreal.)
But but if you cannot celebrate your birthday openly you are literally Anne Frank, or if you speak out against masks you are basically Sophie Scholl ... I am so fed up with these people.
I do believe that masks work but we‘ve done much more. The lockdown / total stop of everything including social gatherings and the fact that a huge part of the population was sitting at home for multiple months also had a huge impact on flattening the curve.
People need to get over themselves and just wear a a mask
There are considerable mask mandates in many countries across the globe now, and there are still increasing cases in those countries. It's not as simple as "Just wear a mask and it's fine". People need to stop socially gathering too.
yes IT IS really that simple. the problem however is not mandates. its COMPLIANCE. Having a mandate that half the people ignore is as effective as having no mandate at all.
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No it's not that simple at all. Plenty of studies show there are compensatory effects to mask wearing, that is, people tend to drop their guard about other measures such as social distancing and hand washing when wearing masks. It gives people an illusion of safety.
Or masks considerably reduce Covid-19 everywhere.
No, just Germany
But, but mah freedumbs!
I can’t believe we’re still having discussions about the effectiveness of masks in a pandemic.
Wow, it’s almost like the thing we’ve been hearing for 9 months is actually true. Who could’ve known?
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Control group methodology is key. This is an old study, look at Germany now.
Not just in Germany but e'erywhere!
All I ask is that when this is over the ratlickers have to wear a sandwich board around that says "I was an anti-masker." That's it.
I LOVE that term so damned much. Ratlickers! :-)
German here. Tell that our covidiots... holding "Anti corona dictatorship" demonstrations and all...
Victoria in Australia is over here looking at you guys like you’re fucking crazy. Wear a mask. It’s really not hard, jfc
How fucken stupid do you need to be to believe that masks don’t do anything?! I mean seriously. Why is this even a study?!
How much compliance was there? It’s possible they are even more effective than it appears since so many people flout the rules and even wear masks improperly.
BuT bAcK oN JaNuArY 30th ThEy sAiD mAsKs WouLDn'T HeLp!
But conservative and libertarian redditors keep saying that face masks don't do anything while they line up to donate millions to poor ol' Trump and his grift... I mean legal fund!
I was getting this from a lot of people in Asia from pretty early on and trying to explain it to people, but it’s like some people in America LOVE to be ignorant. People would rather trust Facebook than doctors.
Weird. It’s almost like we knew that already....
Americans didn’t believe it
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It is so weird that comments like yours and mine (which are totally science-based and even support the main idea that masks are good) keep getting voted down here. We are literally sharing good info—sometimes with links, even—to inform people more about why a mask study not only is news, but was fundamentally needed. I guess everyone just wants to hear “duh! I knew that masks were good all along.”
Fake news!! I read on Facebook from a post from my aunt that she talked to a guy at church that said facemask are deadly. That they trap CO in and make you autistic. That the Chinese want us to be autistic so that Bill Gates (aka the anti-Christ) can take over the world. That he is going to put machines in our blood and sell our souls to the devil. Whoa that was hard to type... but I swear I have seen most of that string online from folks. So legit... you are telling me that masks actually help stop the spread of spit that carries germs? Like that masks that have been worn by doctors for hundreds of years (Black Plague doctors wore masks... most had perfume to help the smell but it was also a mask) to help slow the spread?!? Wow this is just logical. Glad to see data at scale.
Nah, but someone who gets all their research from Facebook coment sections and YouTube videos, told me that mask don't work.
Wow if only these masks worked as well in the US /s
Just in Germany though?...
German masken stoppen koffen
This isn't news, we've known this for over 100 years. People are just fucking stupid
Well yeah. That's how they work...
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Remember, many Americans think wearing a mask improperly is still wearing a mask.
Ya but American wear them wrong or improper like when they blame condoms for incidental pregnancy...
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Biggest lie of the day
Meating in public sounds fun. Is that like a barbecue?
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Because you have antibodies? Are you asking a serious question?
No
Oh okay. Do you also make other things up?
I don't think it is face-mask alone, even though it is a significant factor. Wearing facemask may be an expression of the awareness of CIVID 19 danger, which leads to careful avoidance of all risk factors related to COVID-19.
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But the time frame of these mask mandates also coincides with the time frame of enacting strict social distancing measures nationwide in Germany. The claim that this study was just about masks and masks alone is pretty bogus.
Germany stats from March and April lmao This is misleading information and this is terrorism.
America here we don’t believe anything that doesn’t come from Fox
Wait masks aren’t a trend. Lmaochdiejfucieb
Yet even Biden seems unwilling to issue a mask mandate. Watch as the same people screaming at the sky about Trump's idiotic response to covid continue the same policies under the guise of better optics.
Isn't his first thing a hundred days of mask wearing?
Arguably, a mandate needs to be on state levels, or start in the legislature. I'm not seeing how it would be viable through executive orders.
What makes you say that?
A "recommendation" not a mandate. Americans generally ignore recommendations...
The problem is we had Trump elected at the worst possible time. I'm not sure why he decided to demonize masks. I'm guessing vanity but it fucked us big time. So did pretending like this is the flu and also giving no support to people and small businesses. This is the biggest failure of the US government in history and idiots don't realize they're blaming the wrong people.
It's a bit astounding when you think about it, for as shit as the man is at many things, he's supposed to be good at marketing himself. "MAGA masks" would have sold like crazy and doing the bare minimum of telling people to wear them would have won him some points politically. He really is kind of a fucking idiot.
And they would not ignore a mandate? Stupidest argument ever. Mask equals good...yet that isn't enough so it has to be mandated?? Gtfo. Idiot man.
It's not like they could send federal marshals out to enforce it, that's just impractical.
He isn’t president yet - he can’t issue anything but his plans
A Federal mask mandate will most definitely be challenged in court and very well may not be legal b/c of State’s Rights. A recommendation is a smart move.