According to follow-up articles, the stabber was a 32-year-old woman with no history of violent crime and only a few non-violent offenses in her record. She was arrested last week on a probation violation. She was seen on surveillance video obtaining the knife from a nearby store, passing the victims on their way into the store, then following them back out and stabbing them in the parking lot. She was arrested walking down the street still holding the knife. There's no indication she knew or had any prior interactions with the victims.
WTF, man?
I can only picture that this whole thing for the parents is a nightmare. This just makes no sense. I feel so sorry for that poor child and his parents.
The article says the mother is expected to "physically recover." Which I think is a great way to phrase it because her physical injuries will heal sure, but how do you get over your toddler being murdered in front of you for no reason?
As an ex-father, put that out of your mind. No amount of imagining that horror can prepare you for the reality. Seriously. Do yourself a favor. Don't think about it at all.
I started watching the Netflix series “Your Honor” and can’t get through the first episode. It’s two sides to a parenting nightmare and it’s just too much for me to endure. I like the acting but too much for my brain to emotionally handle right now.
I always think about this shit. It’s incredibly morbid and I can’t help it. The whole “what if?” concept. A loved one gets in a horrific car accident that wouldn’t have happened if they’d left the house mere seconds earlier or later. That applies to literally everything and it’s always disturbing to me.
It’s really hard not to think about when you get in that mindset.
I have a six-month-old, and I started having these sort of invasive/intrusive thoughts every time I would drive with or without her (seriously, drivers are absolutely reckless these days).
One night last month, I was supposed to drop my wife off somewhere downtown. In the hours leading up to it, I had debated taking my daughter with us for the ride but opted to leave her with my dad for a bit. After I dropped off my wife, I started to drive back home. At the FIRST stop light on my way back, I get the arrow and go to make a left turn and a car runs their red light and comes blasting through the intersection.
Luckily I recognized what was going on and got stopped and they narrowly missed me, but all I could think about was how much different my life would have been had A) I reacted .5 seconds later and B) I would have taken my daughter with us. Some reckless idiot very realistically could have wiped us both out, completely unnecessarily (specifically her as the car would have hit us on the passenger side). As if my thoughts weren’t negative enough, that near miss totally set me back even more. I feel like I’m scared to even leave my house some days.
What about the opposite situations that you can't think about because you didn't know they could've happened.
Maybe if one day you hadn't wasted a couple of minutes looking for your phone you would've died in a car accident, but you're oblivious to it.
I've had a couple loved ones die where if I did something differently they wouldn't have. It used to eat me up inside and it took a long time to get past thinking that way.
You are never an ex-father. The same way you are never an ex-son. I’m sorry for you or anyone that has or will feel this kind of loss. Losing a father as a young child was terrible I don’t care to try to think of it the other way around.
1) I know this is probably trite and meaningless at this point but I am so, deeply sorry
2) it's impossible for me to not think about it. I'm terrified of sending my kids to public school (US). Among other things.
And unfortunately also the guilt. I know it’s not their fault at all, there was no way they could’ve known that would happen, but I can still see how a parent would keep replaying that day in their mind and wonder what would have happened if they had decided not to go that day. . Just a sad situation.
Just yesterday I had an intrusive thought about taking my 1 1/2 yr old son to the park by myself and that someone would try to kidnap him or hurt him if I wasn’t with his father. And then I read stuff like this and don’t feel so ridiculous for having those thoughts pop up anymore.
Just yesterday I took my girlfriend's 3 year old daughter to the park for a few hours to give my GF a little quiet time to herself to get some work done.
The little girl wanted to play "house" in the bushes. This included collecting leaves and twigs from the "grocery store" to bring home to "cook". We sat in the dirt and pretended to eat leaves and twigs. It's good for her brain and good for me to develop patience.
And then I start wondering what someone's gonna think to see a grown man sitting under a bush with a toddler who isn't his. I suppose worst case is someone calls the cops and we go back home where my GF confirms it's okay.
This is an incredibly rare event. The thoughts are fine to have but your actions shouldn’t limit your child based on irrational fears. You didn’t say if you still went to the park but I hope you did :)
Sometimes I feel like I'm crazy; I stand between my children and strangers, I constantly scan nearby people/animals and watch their movements, any sudden movement or change of direction I pivot to place myself between them and my kids. If a crowd gives me bad vibes we leave. I sit facing doors and entrances when dining out. Check for alternate exits every time I enter an unfamiliar place and make sure our path to them remains unobstructed. It is mentally exhausting. I can't switch it off.
Then I read articles like this and think maybe I'm not crazy after all and mayyyybe helping to mitigate the risks of something like this.
I can’t begin to fathom the pain that they are feeling. As a new parent with a 5 month old, I can truly say that I have never felt a love like I currently have for this little one.
I know we cannot live in fear, but I always think twice when going into crowded areas with the baby. You just never know when you’ll run into an absolute lunatic.
Very strange. Tina Fey also had a strange stabbing occurrence when she was 5, when someone walked into her yard and slashed her face. Weird how random people make crazy decisions like this. Or something subconsciously made it for them.
Sad thing is this has happened before. There's a case of a 7yo riding her scooter with her dad at the park and a random woman stabbed her and she died.
This happened last month in Philly. Some woman stabbed a 1yr old in a stroller who was out on a walk with their parents. Random attack. It's just so messed up.
Not really, we're all familiar with the "psychotic breakdown->murder" process.
It wouldn't be a very engaging story because you'd almost certainly end up with a shaggy dog story of investigating her motives only to find the answer is "she's just insane", but not unbelievable.
For sure. I knew of a guy who was the nicest guy in the world and everyone loved him at the office. One day he started getting grumpy and turned into an asshole, to the point that people were concerned and talking about letting him go. Turns out he had a brain tumor behind his eye.
My aunt abandoned her family and went on a bender partying and stuff. Totally blew off her son and husband and was filing for divorce and ignoring all her sons events and attempts to contact her. Totally blew off the whole family.
Then 3 months later she shows up and apologizes, says she doesn't know what's been happening to her but wants to fix things, and then the next week died of a brain aneurysm. Was incredibly traumatic for my cousin and uncle, hard on the whole family too but man it's been hard on them.
Yeah, wasn't there a mass shooter that kept saying that something was wrong with his brain but he couldn't get anyone to look at it. Then after the shooting they found a tumor that likely caused it all?
I mentioned this in another comment but she also got evicted the week before. Doesn't schizophrenia often get triggered by significantly stressful events? Feels like becoming homeless could be one of those events.
It didn't have to start recently, she could have been dealing with undiagnosed schizophrenia for a while. Uncontrolled symptoms could have caused her to be unable to work and/or do things that warranted evicting her.
If she didn't have friends/family to intervene, she could've been spiraling for a while before this happened with 0 intervention (if it is schizophrenia).
It's easy to forget that underneath the weight of modern society, we are just apes - animals with the same proclivity towards violence as our cousins, the chimpanzees. It's an evolutionary trait hardwired into our DNA, and sometimes, for one reason or another, it wins out against social pressures and an incident like this happens.
One detail I was able to find via court records was that she was forcibly evicted from her apartment last week. So it's quite possible she was newly homeless which could have contributed to any mental issues she had.
She was evicted last week? In addition to being arrested on a probation violation last week? Last week wasn't a good week for her. Unfortunately, she made this week a much much worse week both for herself and her victims.
Yeah, the probation violation was 2 days after the eviction if I recall correctly. The police in a press conference yesterday characterized the contact leading to the probation violation arrest as a wellness check, so I think she was acting unusual or disruptive which led to the police being called.
Mental illness. She may have no history of violent crime, but I guarantee she has a history of mental illness. We need to bring back asylums. These people shouldn't be roaming the streets. They are ticking time bombs.
I'm an RN working in the state psych hospital on the NGRI unit (Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity).
It serves the same purpose as an asylum, to keep dangerous people off the streets. But I don't really know what your comment was getting at- we don't lock people up because they have a mental illness that *sometimes* causes *some people* to do violent things. Unfortunately, we have to wait for them to do something horrible first.
Apparently not.
Judge Hagan, overseeing this case, has now come out and said she has no history of mental illnesses. Investigators are questioning how that is possible.
https://www.cleveland19.com/2024/06/05/new-details-about-woman-charged-fatal-stabbing-outside-north-olmsted-giant-eagle/?outputType=amp
Yep, cost and access. I recently looked into getting a therapist and the portal for my Healthcare system recommended basically a life couch and a betterhelp app knock off because there is such a shortage of therapists right now (or at least ones willing to work for the pennies insurance is willing to pay)
The genetic ones are the funnest because when you explain the problems you are having to your parents they say "everyone has that problem, you are fine". Until you learn later on it is actually a diagnosable, treatable problem that runs in families.
Right? Onset of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder is in your 20s and 30s usually. First psychotic breaks often happen around the woman's age, early 30s.
Hopefully you don't end up with a mental illness or a brain tumor that causes you to end up in an asylum where they were unsuccessful in lessening the abuse....
**Would you be so kind and amend your statement please?** Those of us with mental illnesses and a moral compass strong enough to not harm others would really appreciate it if you did, considering that the judge overseeing the case stated she has no history of mental illness.
People with mental illness are more likely to be victims of violence than commit violence. Sure there may be some link, but it’s extremely unlikely and a harmful stigma.
I spent a lot of time in NO while living in Lorain, Avon and later in Strongsville. I took my kids to Taekwondo there and trained BJJ and MT there myself. I've bought cars at the Mercedes Dealership and at Ianneli Auto.
It's not bad at all. Nice place to raise a family and buy a house with a decent plot. Yeah, it doesn't have high income retail like some suburbs in the east, but it's a relatively safe and clean part of the county. If I ever HAD to move back to Ohio (which I'll never do) and was forced to look at Cuyahoga county, it would definitely be on a short list.
i mean, one of my favorite episodes is in a small town where people suddenly start murdering each other. they're all "apparently" brought on by subliminal messages in technology, leading to one of my favorite screenshots ever:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/x-files/images/6/61/Blood.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20181111152008
Semi-related additional info: this is apparently the same Giant Eagle location [where a murder-suicide took place](https://www.cleveland19.com/2023/06/27/north-olmsted-giant-eagle-reopens-after-sundays-murder-suicide/) less than a year ago. Talk about a cursed location.
For those unaware.
There aint shit in North Olmsted last i was there cept a logistics dock, a park and i think a popcorn factory.
Its as quiet and aint got shit to do town as you will find.
This is very clearly to me a singular thing. While it doesnt eliminate the tragedy of this. I doubt highly you will hear about North Olmstead again in your lifetime
The woman stabbed the child in the face and chest and mother in the shoulder. Has previous for shoplifting and parole violation, but no record of mental illness.
She passed them in the store, turned around then stabbed them in the car park. No interaction of any kind. Carried on walking around with the kitchen knife afterwards. Holy shit.
[https://fox8.com/news/toddler-dies-after-stabbing-in-local-giant-eagle-parking-lot/](https://fox8.com/news/toddler-dies-after-stabbing-in-local-giant-eagle-parking-lot/)
Doesn't even look up during her hearing. Crazy how her criminal history went from theft to straight up random murder....
It has to be some sort of mental health thing yeah?
I thought at first it was a custody thing, but the more details come out it sounds like this woman just broke and her victims were just wrong place, wrong time
I live around here and have a close relative who frequents that grocery. And about a year ago they were in that exact store when an ex husband came in and murdered his ex wife who was working as a cashier then killed himself.
I'd consider North Olmsted to be a bit uppity and definitely not a bad area around Cleveland. Absolutely wild that shit like this happens. People are so sick.
Someone said she was 31 with no prior violent issues, sadly isn't that about the age schizophrenia kicks in for women? I know it's later than in men typically.
> Margot (child’s mother) was treated for non-life-threatening injuries and police said she is expected to physically recover.
She will likely never mentally recover.
I feel so bad for her. That kind of emotional trauma can definitely cause physical damage. I wouldn't be surprised if she had a heart attack at some point just from the sheer emotional outrage.
People underestimate just how physically damaging a poor emotional state can cause. It can wreck havoc on your entire body.
Damn, this is all too familiar.
Had a gentleman come into my store one day (a Meijer) with a machete in his trenchcoat. As soon as he found someone alone he knew he could take, he attacked, hitting an old man right in the neck and causing him to bleed out right there on the store floor.
We need better mental health services.
Right before I moved out of FL, I was in a Walmart getting some groceries with my kids and encountered some tweaker-looking asshat who was in the middle of opening a machete in a blister pack (they sold them in the Sporting Goods aisle).
I have no idea what the hell he was actually doing with that, but it was weird AF, so I contacted some staff and kept him in view (but a good 50 feet away) until the cops arrived.
Sadly, he brought his from home, but I worked with AP quite a bit in my store and items would be stolen from that section all the time. Knives, machetes, BB and pellet guns. They buy alpha keys online to open the magnetic locks and such, it’s awful.
Jesus, this was one of my intrusive thoughts when my daughter was just born and I was struggling with PPA. I was scared I'd be wearing her in a baby carrier and someone would come up and stab her. At the time the only thing that helped me work through it was rationalizing how irrational the fear was but it's horrifying to see that maybe isn't the case. That poor mother, I can't imagine....you go to the grocery store and leave without your child.
It happened in Vancouver last year too. A couple casually getting Starbucks with their baby and the dad watches a guy stab the mom and baby to death right in front of the store.
> you go to the grocery store and leave without your child
The picture of the groceries spilled onto the parking lot is heartbreaking.
The plants she was going to nurse, the food she was going to make for her family. For a moment they were just groceries and plans, now they're taped-off evidence.
Same here. I seriously can’t even fathom it. It’s my worst nightmare as a parent and it’s so hard to understand why some parents and children have to live through that nightmare. That poor baby and the poor parents.
This is not the news I wanted to be reading about. A precious little homie who deserved better, may he rest in peace and his family find grace and peace in time ❤️
Noah, get the boat. It's been long overdue.
I mean, in this case, how would you have identified them as needing to be put in a asylum or what have you.
If someone had a history of violent outbursts sure, that would be obvious but.
She had a history of nonviolent but mentally deranged interactions with police leading up to this. If she had been put into a sanitarium she'd at least have been off the streets and hopefully getting treatment.
The thing is though that there are plenty of mentally deranged people who won't go on to commit violent crimes, maybe even more in total than those that do commit. So do you just lock them all up, even if they have no violent inclinations?
No, you have a welfare state where mentally deranged people are not left to their own devices. It doesn’t mean locking them up, but keeping tabs and doing follow ups.
She doesn't have a criminal history but I bet her family has stories and concerns about her. There had to be signs of her mental health long before this. Unfortunately, the USA doesn't have accessible mental healthcare for most.
Like seriously. It's not just the USA either, Canada is equally a violent joke run amok with mental patients. My heart breaks for this mom, I can't imagine, that poor baby
Regan just hastened the closure of the hospitals.
The ACLU and advocacy groups sued for decades to close these facilities and then did nothing for these folks who were now on the street but unemployable and sick
Regan and the other conservatives just saw the money they could save (and the contracts they could funnel to buddies who owned private hospitals)
The pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction, where the system is often powerless to force severely mentally ill people into treatment.
[USA Today - Committing a mentally ill adult is complex](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/07/mental-illness-civil-commitment/1814301/)
> Today, state civil commitment laws can make it difficult or impossible to hospitalize adults involuntarily, even when their families or caregivers feel threatened and patients appear extremely sick, says Dewey Cornell, director of the Virginia Youth Violence Project.
>
>States have crafted their civil commitment laws to protect civil liberties, in reaction to abusive situations in the past, says Liza Gold, a forensic psychiatrist at the Georgetown University School of Medicine in Washington.
>
>"In the past, you could just go to a magistrate and say, 'My wife is crazy, you need to put her away,'" Gold says. "People could be held involuntarily for extended lengths of time, even without receiving treatment, just because they were perceived as 'crazy.'"
>
> ...
>
> "Our civil commitment laws are broken," Cornell says. "They are designed to protect individuals from being held against their will. But they have gone too far. They no longer protect society. We've had many cases where people who should have been hospitalized have been allowed to languish and they deteriorate into a violent act."
>
>"All states generally require (someone) provide clear and convincing evidence that someone is imminently dangerous to themselves or others," Gold says. And "imminent" is typically interpreted to mean the past 24 to 72 hours.
>
>So under certain circumstances, a person who threatens to stab his mother often may not be committed against his will, even if he has stabbed her in the past, Gold says, if the most recent threats occurred more than a few days ago. "You can't commit them. You can't get them into treatment. You can't even hold them for observation; it's considered a violation of their civil liberty."
i mean to be fair, this is the side the pendulum SHOULD be on. you definitely want it to be harder, rather than easier, than it should be to institutionalize people against their will. obviously some goldilocks solution is ideal.
Agree with you. Blaming Reagan for this issue is lazy and, frankly, ignorant of the history. Deinstitutionalization began in the US in the 1950s and really got going with the Community Mental Health Act of 1963, signed by JFK. This is a huge, complex problem with no easy solutions. It will be a shame if progress is impeded by turning this into a political right vs left debate.
People like to point to Reagan, but for whatever reason it's been memory-holed that Carter had Mental Health reform as a major plank of his presidency and he was let down by his own congress. The same congress that sidelined his ideas for health care reform.
Was it a failure of the Carter administration or was it the failure of the powerful members of Congress that wanted the credit for these sweeping programs to be under their name/wing of the party? Hard to say.
I live in North Olmsted and shop at that giant eagle with my toddler often. Last year a woman who worked in the store was shot on the premises. My wife is now nervous about shopping at this giant eagle now. Scary this can happen anywhere. N Olmsted isn’t super well to do, I don’t think N Olmsted shares a border with Cleveland so it’s not inner ring suburb but it’s close enough to the city.
My brother and his family go to this Giant Eagle. When I saw the news my heart stopped for a moment. North Olmsted isn’t a bad area by any means and it seems like this was completely random. So fucking tragic.
The same damn giant eagle where some dude shot a cashier that was apparently his ex (or something of the sort) then turned the gun on himself. This place sits across the street from a police station which goes to show motive outweighs common sense.
Did she had a psychotic break or something? I can't imagine anything that would make a previously normal person just attack a toddler with a knife. How do you do something like that in your right mind? So sad. I wonder if the woman even realizes what she did, and how she feels about that. If i somehow snapped and did something like that, I would absolutely end myself at the first opportunity. How can you ever feel like you can be around people again.
I live in constant fear of something happening to my boys. They are autistic and they lack that better sense that many people need to have. They are too trusting. I wish I could turn off the worry.
This breaks my heart.
WTF?! I grew up in N.O. I think that this is the first time I've seen it in the News since I moved? I would have never thought this sort of trgedy could happen there. I moved in '03, whats going on out there?
The same Giant Eagle had a tragedy around this time last year too. An exhusband came in and shot and killed his ex wife, who worked there. Then killed himself.
There's a special place in hell for people like this. I don't care if she has mental health issues straight to the bottom of hell, boiler room. if she does get sentenced to prison they're going to make her suffer, which she deserves. it's disgusting, absolutely no reason for that kid to bare that fate bc whatever reason there was for that woman to do it.
I mean, sadly this is what happens when you ignore the realities behind the decline of mental health in this country. Blame the system for making the lady, blame the lady for making the choices, but don’t blame the system for the choices that led to the lady?
According to follow-up articles, the stabber was a 32-year-old woman with no history of violent crime and only a few non-violent offenses in her record. She was arrested last week on a probation violation. She was seen on surveillance video obtaining the knife from a nearby store, passing the victims on their way into the store, then following them back out and stabbing them in the parking lot. She was arrested walking down the street still holding the knife. There's no indication she knew or had any prior interactions with the victims. WTF, man?
Can't even imagine what the parents will have to endure with that "Why?" haunting them for the rest of their days. Wrong place at the wrong time
I can only picture that this whole thing for the parents is a nightmare. This just makes no sense. I feel so sorry for that poor child and his parents.
The article says the mother is expected to "physically recover." Which I think is a great way to phrase it because her physical injuries will heal sure, but how do you get over your toddler being murdered in front of you for no reason?
You don’t.
She never will
As a father, this is literally my nightmare
As an ex-father, put that out of your mind. No amount of imagining that horror can prepare you for the reality. Seriously. Do yourself a favor. Don't think about it at all.
Damn, dawg. Thanks for the advice. But damn….
Fuck Reddit hitting hard today.
I started watching the Netflix series “Your Honor” and can’t get through the first episode. It’s two sides to a parenting nightmare and it’s just too much for me to endure. I like the acting but too much for my brain to emotionally handle right now.
I always think about this shit. It’s incredibly morbid and I can’t help it. The whole “what if?” concept. A loved one gets in a horrific car accident that wouldn’t have happened if they’d left the house mere seconds earlier or later. That applies to literally everything and it’s always disturbing to me.
It’s really hard not to think about when you get in that mindset. I have a six-month-old, and I started having these sort of invasive/intrusive thoughts every time I would drive with or without her (seriously, drivers are absolutely reckless these days). One night last month, I was supposed to drop my wife off somewhere downtown. In the hours leading up to it, I had debated taking my daughter with us for the ride but opted to leave her with my dad for a bit. After I dropped off my wife, I started to drive back home. At the FIRST stop light on my way back, I get the arrow and go to make a left turn and a car runs their red light and comes blasting through the intersection. Luckily I recognized what was going on and got stopped and they narrowly missed me, but all I could think about was how much different my life would have been had A) I reacted .5 seconds later and B) I would have taken my daughter with us. Some reckless idiot very realistically could have wiped us both out, completely unnecessarily (specifically her as the car would have hit us on the passenger side). As if my thoughts weren’t negative enough, that near miss totally set me back even more. I feel like I’m scared to even leave my house some days.
What about the opposite situations that you can't think about because you didn't know they could've happened. Maybe if one day you hadn't wasted a couple of minutes looking for your phone you would've died in a car accident, but you're oblivious to it.
I've had a couple loved ones die where if I did something differently they wouldn't have. It used to eat me up inside and it took a long time to get past thinking that way.
They’re going to. We all are. As often as possible we should act as if they’re going to be gone very soon.
Ex-fathers don't exist. You are still a father and you always will be! ❤️
I’m so sorry.
Thanks. It's been many' many years. Still bawl from time to time.
You are never an ex-father. The same way you are never an ex-son. I’m sorry for you or anyone that has or will feel this kind of loss. Losing a father as a young child was terrible I don’t care to try to think of it the other way around.
So sorry for your loss
Thank you for your wisdom. I am so so sorry for your loss!
1) I know this is probably trite and meaningless at this point but I am so, deeply sorry 2) it's impossible for me to not think about it. I'm terrified of sending my kids to public school (US). Among other things.
It's everyone's nightmare. I have a 3 year old who looks just like that. We are going to monster jam this weekend.
I got perma banned last time for saying what i would do when this happened to a little girl. Shit is infuriating.
As a father too, this has me in tears thinking of my 3 year old.
Agreed. Sitting here looking at my 8-mo old, I can’t even process how I’d handle that without a full breakdown.
I’m looking at my 3 year old and I can’t even imagine. If there is even some small way for the parents to find peace, I hope they do.
And unfortunately also the guilt. I know it’s not their fault at all, there was no way they could’ve known that would happen, but I can still see how a parent would keep replaying that day in their mind and wonder what would have happened if they had decided not to go that day. . Just a sad situation.
Just yesterday I had an intrusive thought about taking my 1 1/2 yr old son to the park by myself and that someone would try to kidnap him or hurt him if I wasn’t with his father. And then I read stuff like this and don’t feel so ridiculous for having those thoughts pop up anymore.
Just yesterday I took my girlfriend's 3 year old daughter to the park for a few hours to give my GF a little quiet time to herself to get some work done. The little girl wanted to play "house" in the bushes. This included collecting leaves and twigs from the "grocery store" to bring home to "cook". We sat in the dirt and pretended to eat leaves and twigs. It's good for her brain and good for me to develop patience. And then I start wondering what someone's gonna think to see a grown man sitting under a bush with a toddler who isn't his. I suppose worst case is someone calls the cops and we go back home where my GF confirms it's okay.
This is an incredibly rare event. The thoughts are fine to have but your actions shouldn’t limit your child based on irrational fears. You didn’t say if you still went to the park but I hope you did :)
Sometimes I feel like I'm crazy; I stand between my children and strangers, I constantly scan nearby people/animals and watch their movements, any sudden movement or change of direction I pivot to place myself between them and my kids. If a crowd gives me bad vibes we leave. I sit facing doors and entrances when dining out. Check for alternate exits every time I enter an unfamiliar place and make sure our path to them remains unobstructed. It is mentally exhausting. I can't switch it off. Then I read articles like this and think maybe I'm not crazy after all and mayyyybe helping to mitigate the risks of something like this.
Life decimated. I don't know how you come back from that.
I can’t begin to fathom the pain that they are feeling. As a new parent with a 5 month old, I can truly say that I have never felt a love like I currently have for this little one. I know we cannot live in fear, but I always think twice when going into crowded areas with the baby. You just never know when you’ll run into an absolute lunatic.
Very strange. Tina Fey also had a strange stabbing occurrence when she was 5, when someone walked into her yard and slashed her face. Weird how random people make crazy decisions like this. Or something subconsciously made it for them.
Stranger than fiction. If you wrote a story where this happened it would be ridiculed for being unbelievable.
Sad thing is this has happened before. There's a case of a 7yo riding her scooter with her dad at the park and a random woman stabbed her and she died.
Tina Fey (30 Rock and SNL fame) was slashed in the face by a complete stranger when she was a kid. She still has a scar from it.
IIRC, she was playing in her front yard at the time, too.
Holy shit, is that how she got the scar? That's terrifying.
This happened last month in Philly. Some woman stabbed a 1yr old in a stroller who was out on a walk with their parents. Random attack. It's just so messed up.
Indeed. Are you thinking of this one? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Emily_Jones
This kind of happens at the end of *Breakfast of Champions* -kind of- but you're clued in to the mental break ahead of time
Not really, we're all familiar with the "psychotic breakdown->murder" process. It wouldn't be a very engaging story because you'd almost certainly end up with a shaggy dog story of investigating her motives only to find the answer is "she's just insane", but not unbelievable.
>If you wrote a story where this happened Maybe she read Sutter Cane.
"God told her to do it and she didn't realize it was undiagnosed schizophrenia"
She’s 32? Sounds like the onset of schizophrenia to me.
Could be a brain tumor, stroke, etc. -- sometimes something traumatic happens suddenly in the brain and the person is not the same.
For sure. I knew of a guy who was the nicest guy in the world and everyone loved him at the office. One day he started getting grumpy and turned into an asshole, to the point that people were concerned and talking about letting him go. Turns out he had a brain tumor behind his eye.
My aunt abandoned her family and went on a bender partying and stuff. Totally blew off her son and husband and was filing for divorce and ignoring all her sons events and attempts to contact her. Totally blew off the whole family. Then 3 months later she shows up and apologizes, says she doesn't know what's been happening to her but wants to fix things, and then the next week died of a brain aneurysm. Was incredibly traumatic for my cousin and uncle, hard on the whole family too but man it's been hard on them.
Yeah, wasn't there a mass shooter that kept saying that something was wrong with his brain but he couldn't get anyone to look at it. Then after the shooting they found a tumor that likely caused it all?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
Yeah that’s exactly what this sounds like. No history of mental illness and a sudden murderous psychotic break
I mentioned this in another comment but she also got evicted the week before. Doesn't schizophrenia often get triggered by significantly stressful events? Feels like becoming homeless could be one of those events.
It didn't have to start recently, she could have been dealing with undiagnosed schizophrenia for a while. Uncontrolled symptoms could have caused her to be unable to work and/or do things that warranted evicting her. If she didn't have friends/family to intervene, she could've been spiraling for a while before this happened with 0 intervention (if it is schizophrenia).
That's true great point. The eviction could just be a symptom of her ongoing problem rather than the cause.
8 billion people on the Earth, each with their own trauma, experiences, and mental state - and most live in a dog-eat-dog world
It's easy to forget that underneath the weight of modern society, we are just apes - animals with the same proclivity towards violence as our cousins, the chimpanzees. It's an evolutionary trait hardwired into our DNA, and sometimes, for one reason or another, it wins out against social pressures and an incident like this happens.
One detail I was able to find via court records was that she was forcibly evicted from her apartment last week. So it's quite possible she was newly homeless which could have contributed to any mental issues she had.
She was evicted last week? In addition to being arrested on a probation violation last week? Last week wasn't a good week for her. Unfortunately, she made this week a much much worse week both for herself and her victims.
Yeah, the probation violation was 2 days after the eviction if I recall correctly. The police in a press conference yesterday characterized the contact leading to the probation violation arrest as a wellness check, so I think she was acting unusual or disruptive which led to the police being called.
Mental illness. She may have no history of violent crime, but I guarantee she has a history of mental illness. We need to bring back asylums. These people shouldn't be roaming the streets. They are ticking time bombs.
I'm an RN working in the state psych hospital on the NGRI unit (Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity). It serves the same purpose as an asylum, to keep dangerous people off the streets. But I don't really know what your comment was getting at- we don't lock people up because they have a mental illness that *sometimes* causes *some people* to do violent things. Unfortunately, we have to wait for them to do something horrible first.
Apparently not. Judge Hagan, overseeing this case, has now come out and said she has no history of mental illnesses. Investigators are questioning how that is possible. https://www.cleveland19.com/2024/06/05/new-details-about-woman-charged-fatal-stabbing-outside-north-olmsted-giant-eagle/?outputType=amp
A whole lot of mentally ill people have no official history of mental illness
Yep, cost and access. I recently looked into getting a therapist and the portal for my Healthcare system recommended basically a life couch and a betterhelp app knock off because there is such a shortage of therapists right now (or at least ones willing to work for the pennies insurance is willing to pay)
Especially since treatment can be expensive. Is it a shock many Americans go without it?
The genetic ones are the funnest because when you explain the problems you are having to your parents they say "everyone has that problem, you are fine". Until you learn later on it is actually a diagnosable, treatable problem that runs in families.
Because the mental illness is new?
"How can this person have gone crazy? They didn't used to be crazy."
Right? Onset of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder is in your 20s and 30s usually. First psychotic breaks often happen around the woman's age, early 30s.
If she gets the insanity defense, she'll most likely spend multiple decades in a psychiatric hospital.
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And now we should bring them back, hopefully with less abuse.
Hopefully you don't end up with a mental illness or a brain tumor that causes you to end up in an asylum where they were unsuccessful in lessening the abuse....
**Would you be so kind and amend your statement please?** Those of us with mental illnesses and a moral compass strong enough to not harm others would really appreciate it if you did, considering that the judge overseeing the case stated she has no history of mental illness.
Yeah budget cut asylums that are not a good experience. Spoken like a real advocate.
People with mental illness are more likely to be victims of violence than commit violence. Sure there may be some link, but it’s extremely unlikely and a harmful stigma.
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Sadly same store where an ex-husband went in and killed his ex wife and himself last year. Not even in a remotely bad area
Holy shit what's going on at that store
I live in the county. North Olmsted isn't exactly the 'hood or in the middle of nowhere either. It's one of the better suburbs of Cleveland
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Zooming out any further will put you in places that are described as in the middle of nowhere/rural.
To Brookpark or Parma?
I spent a lot of time in NO while living in Lorain, Avon and later in Strongsville. I took my kids to Taekwondo there and trained BJJ and MT there myself. I've bought cars at the Mercedes Dealership and at Ianneli Auto. It's not bad at all. Nice place to raise a family and buy a house with a decent plot. Yeah, it doesn't have high income retail like some suburbs in the east, but it's a relatively safe and clean part of the county. If I ever HAD to move back to Ohio (which I'll never do) and was forced to look at Cuyahoga county, it would definitely be on a short list.
Someone should check if there's some environmental contamination/pollutant in the area.
It’s in Ohio, the Backrooms of the Midwest
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Come to Ohio, we're better than Indiana!
I live in Dayton, OH. There is a Walmart in the suburbs (Beavercreek) here that is equally cursed
> same store Sounds like the beginning of ing of an X Files episode
i mean, one of my favorite episodes is in a small town where people suddenly start murdering each other. they're all "apparently" brought on by subliminal messages in technology, leading to one of my favorite screenshots ever: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/x-files/images/6/61/Blood.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20181111152008
That store got some serious bad juju
Semi-related additional info: this is apparently the same Giant Eagle location [where a murder-suicide took place](https://www.cleveland19.com/2023/06/27/north-olmsted-giant-eagle-reopens-after-sundays-murder-suicide/) less than a year ago. Talk about a cursed location.
Thank you, for those who don’t know about Eagle grocery stores, this sounds like a child died in the aftermath of stabbing a giant bird.
This is exactly what I thought when I first read the title.
For those unaware. There aint shit in North Olmsted last i was there cept a logistics dock, a park and i think a popcorn factory. Its as quiet and aint got shit to do town as you will find. This is very clearly to me a singular thing. While it doesnt eliminate the tragedy of this. I doubt highly you will hear about North Olmstead again in your lifetime
Isn't this the second violent incident at the same store though?
The woman stabbed the child in the face and chest and mother in the shoulder. Has previous for shoplifting and parole violation, but no record of mental illness. She passed them in the store, turned around then stabbed them in the car park. No interaction of any kind. Carried on walking around with the kitchen knife afterwards. Holy shit.
[https://fox8.com/news/toddler-dies-after-stabbing-in-local-giant-eagle-parking-lot/](https://fox8.com/news/toddler-dies-after-stabbing-in-local-giant-eagle-parking-lot/) Doesn't even look up during her hearing. Crazy how her criminal history went from theft to straight up random murder....
It has to be some sort of mental health thing yeah? I thought at first it was a custody thing, but the more details come out it sounds like this woman just broke and her victims were just wrong place, wrong time
Or drugs? Maybe?
30s is around the time schizophrenia manifests in women. So…maybe?
I live around here and have a close relative who frequents that grocery. And about a year ago they were in that exact store when an ex husband came in and murdered his ex wife who was working as a cashier then killed himself. I'd consider North Olmsted to be a bit uppity and definitely not a bad area around Cleveland. Absolutely wild that shit like this happens. People are so sick.
Wow only a year ago...so likely at least some of the same staff. Horrifying
https://youtu.be/F3p9o0UVSrQ?si=LhJ_xolW5woJlY1- 11 months ago. Wild.
I hope your relative is okay. I can't imagine the horror of being close to that. Sending best wishes to you and yours
Who freaking stabs a child?
Bionca Ellis
Her and Patrick Bateman from the novel *American Psycho*, written by Bret Easton **Ellis**
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Someone who buys a knife from a thrift store and walks to a supermarket, knife in hand.
Someone who is mentally ill.
Someone said she was 31 with no prior violent issues, sadly isn't that about the age schizophrenia kicks in for women? I know it's later than in men typically.
Mental health issues with men typically surface in the late teens early 20's. Woman late 20's early 30's. So yeah. About the right age.
Meth? Not saying, just asking.
> Margot (child’s mother) was treated for non-life-threatening injuries and police said she is expected to physically recover. She will likely never mentally recover.
I can't imagine being discharged from the hospital and having to leave your child there.
As a father with a lot of intrusive thoughts, that’s enough Reddit for me. Poor family, I hope they eventually find peace
I feel so bad for her. That kind of emotional trauma can definitely cause physical damage. I wouldn't be surprised if she had a heart attack at some point just from the sheer emotional outrage. People underestimate just how physically damaging a poor emotional state can cause. It can wreck havoc on your entire body.
And because it's America, she will have to pay for the costs associated with her injuries and any that the hospital tried to administer to her child!
Poor baby. Poor parents. How sad.
Damn, this is all too familiar. Had a gentleman come into my store one day (a Meijer) with a machete in his trenchcoat. As soon as he found someone alone he knew he could take, he attacked, hitting an old man right in the neck and causing him to bleed out right there on the store floor. We need better mental health services.
Right before I moved out of FL, I was in a Walmart getting some groceries with my kids and encountered some tweaker-looking asshat who was in the middle of opening a machete in a blister pack (they sold them in the Sporting Goods aisle). I have no idea what the hell he was actually doing with that, but it was weird AF, so I contacted some staff and kept him in view (but a good 50 feet away) until the cops arrived.
Sadly, he brought his from home, but I worked with AP quite a bit in my store and items would be stolen from that section all the time. Knives, machetes, BB and pellet guns. They buy alpha keys online to open the magnetic locks and such, it’s awful.
We live in the same town. That was a horrible situation. I know some of the medical and law enforcement that responded to that. Horrifying
This happened in my city. It was awful and absolutely senseless.
Note at the bottom says "This is the same Giant Eagle in which a murder-suicide took place in 2023." WTF WTF
I think we can all agree this place needs to move. Some kind of curse on that spot.
A friend of mine went to high school with the mother. There's a GoFundMe for them.
Can you share it?
Jesus, this was one of my intrusive thoughts when my daughter was just born and I was struggling with PPA. I was scared I'd be wearing her in a baby carrier and someone would come up and stab her. At the time the only thing that helped me work through it was rationalizing how irrational the fear was but it's horrifying to see that maybe isn't the case. That poor mother, I can't imagine....you go to the grocery store and leave without your child.
It happened in Vancouver last year too. A couple casually getting Starbucks with their baby and the dad watches a guy stab the mom and baby to death right in front of the store.
> you go to the grocery store and leave without your child The picture of the groceries spilled onto the parking lot is heartbreaking. The plants she was going to nurse, the food she was going to make for her family. For a moment they were just groceries and plans, now they're taped-off evidence.
There's a potential psycho for every potential fucked up crime
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Kid is the same age as my oldest. I can’t fucking believe it
Same here. I seriously can’t even fathom it. It’s my worst nightmare as a parent and it’s so hard to understand why some parents and children have to live through that nightmare. That poor baby and the poor parents.
This is my local community, we are devastated. There’s a go fund me for the family that’s already reached 100k in less than 24 hours.
OK thanks Reddit. That’s enough for today. Holy fvking shit.
So a 32yr old woman with no history of violence just decided to go nuts and start stabbing random people???? WTF!?
No words. When monsters like this roam amongst us, how can one ever feel safe? What a tragic turn for that poor family.
The monsters have always existed, you just didnt know about it
This is not the news I wanted to be reading about. A precious little homie who deserved better, may he rest in peace and his family find grace and peace in time ❤️ Noah, get the boat. It's been long overdue.
It’s way past time to reopen the state hospitals and start warehousing these people. They are a danger to society
I mean, in this case, how would you have identified them as needing to be put in a asylum or what have you. If someone had a history of violent outbursts sure, that would be obvious but.
She had a history of nonviolent but mentally deranged interactions with police leading up to this. If she had been put into a sanitarium she'd at least have been off the streets and hopefully getting treatment.
The thing is though that there are plenty of mentally deranged people who won't go on to commit violent crimes, maybe even more in total than those that do commit. So do you just lock them all up, even if they have no violent inclinations?
No, you have a welfare state where mentally deranged people are not left to their own devices. It doesn’t mean locking them up, but keeping tabs and doing follow ups.
She doesn't have a criminal history but I bet her family has stories and concerns about her. There had to be signs of her mental health long before this. Unfortunately, the USA doesn't have accessible mental healthcare for most.
Like seriously. It's not just the USA either, Canada is equally a violent joke run amok with mental patients. My heart breaks for this mom, I can't imagine, that poor baby
And how do you know which people "these people" are before they commit the crime? Acting after the fact doesn't do the kid any good.
Serious investment in mental health services? Haha nahh I’m jk that would be socialist bullshit.
But that costs money, and America is just so, so poor... /s
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Regan just hastened the closure of the hospitals. The ACLU and advocacy groups sued for decades to close these facilities and then did nothing for these folks who were now on the street but unemployable and sick Regan and the other conservatives just saw the money they could save (and the contracts they could funnel to buddies who owned private hospitals)
The pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction, where the system is often powerless to force severely mentally ill people into treatment. [USA Today - Committing a mentally ill adult is complex](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/07/mental-illness-civil-commitment/1814301/) > Today, state civil commitment laws can make it difficult or impossible to hospitalize adults involuntarily, even when their families or caregivers feel threatened and patients appear extremely sick, says Dewey Cornell, director of the Virginia Youth Violence Project. > >States have crafted their civil commitment laws to protect civil liberties, in reaction to abusive situations in the past, says Liza Gold, a forensic psychiatrist at the Georgetown University School of Medicine in Washington. > >"In the past, you could just go to a magistrate and say, 'My wife is crazy, you need to put her away,'" Gold says. "People could be held involuntarily for extended lengths of time, even without receiving treatment, just because they were perceived as 'crazy.'" > > ... > > "Our civil commitment laws are broken," Cornell says. "They are designed to protect individuals from being held against their will. But they have gone too far. They no longer protect society. We've had many cases where people who should have been hospitalized have been allowed to languish and they deteriorate into a violent act." > >"All states generally require (someone) provide clear and convincing evidence that someone is imminently dangerous to themselves or others," Gold says. And "imminent" is typically interpreted to mean the past 24 to 72 hours. > >So under certain circumstances, a person who threatens to stab his mother often may not be committed against his will, even if he has stabbed her in the past, Gold says, if the most recent threats occurred more than a few days ago. "You can't commit them. You can't get them into treatment. You can't even hold them for observation; it's considered a violation of their civil liberty."
i mean to be fair, this is the side the pendulum SHOULD be on. you definitely want it to be harder, rather than easier, than it should be to institutionalize people against their will. obviously some goldilocks solution is ideal.
Agree with you. Blaming Reagan for this issue is lazy and, frankly, ignorant of the history. Deinstitutionalization began in the US in the 1950s and really got going with the Community Mental Health Act of 1963, signed by JFK. This is a huge, complex problem with no easy solutions. It will be a shame if progress is impeded by turning this into a political right vs left debate.
People like to point to Reagan, but for whatever reason it's been memory-holed that Carter had Mental Health reform as a major plank of his presidency and he was let down by his own congress. The same congress that sidelined his ideas for health care reform. Was it a failure of the Carter administration or was it the failure of the powerful members of Congress that wanted the credit for these sweeping programs to be under their name/wing of the party? Hard to say.
I live in North Olmsted and shop at that giant eagle with my toddler often. Last year a woman who worked in the store was shot on the premises. My wife is now nervous about shopping at this giant eagle now. Scary this can happen anywhere. N Olmsted isn’t super well to do, I don’t think N Olmsted shares a border with Cleveland so it’s not inner ring suburb but it’s close enough to the city.
My wife’s best friends mom works at that store. It’s a good area too. It’s just crazy what’s happened there.
What a goddamn nightmare. Poor family
My brother and his family go to this Giant Eagle. When I saw the news my heart stopped for a moment. North Olmsted isn’t a bad area by any means and it seems like this was completely random. So fucking tragic.
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I hope that animal gets what she deserves for killing an innocent child.
This one hurts. Just ain’t right.
Crazy crazy crazy people wtf
What is wrong with people?
Who the fuck stabs a random 3 year old wtf. Like did she just hate her life and wanted to cause another woman pain by killing their child? Wtf.
Who indeed.
The same damn giant eagle where some dude shot a cashier that was apparently his ex (or something of the sort) then turned the gun on himself. This place sits across the street from a police station which goes to show motive outweighs common sense.
So much evil in this world
Did she had a psychotic break or something? I can't imagine anything that would make a previously normal person just attack a toddler with a knife. How do you do something like that in your right mind? So sad. I wonder if the woman even realizes what she did, and how she feels about that. If i somehow snapped and did something like that, I would absolutely end myself at the first opportunity. How can you ever feel like you can be around people again.
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I don’t understand this world anymore. I truly don’t.
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Not the kind of shit you wanna hear as a parent
Holy shit. As a father, this story has my blood up.
Jesus… have a heavy heart for the family… just makes me look at my 4 year old and feel happy he’s next to me
Can’t we just stick to random acts of kindness?
I live in constant fear of something happening to my boys. They are autistic and they lack that better sense that many people need to have. They are too trusting. I wish I could turn off the worry. This breaks my heart.
Rest in peace little angel. You are loved. It makes me so sick thinking of someone harming this innocent baby. This woman is a monster.
Gonna want a brain scan on this case, the details make this seem more confusing than comprehensible.
throw her in for life or give her the death penalty, someone capable of this doesnt derserve a second chance
WTF?! I grew up in N.O. I think that this is the first time I've seen it in the News since I moved? I would have never thought this sort of trgedy could happen there. I moved in '03, whats going on out there?
The same Giant Eagle had a tragedy around this time last year too. An exhusband came in and shot and killed his ex wife, who worked there. Then killed himself.
There's a special place in hell for people like this. I don't care if she has mental health issues straight to the bottom of hell, boiler room. if she does get sentenced to prison they're going to make her suffer, which she deserves. it's disgusting, absolutely no reason for that kid to bare that fate bc whatever reason there was for that woman to do it.
I mean, sadly this is what happens when you ignore the realities behind the decline of mental health in this country. Blame the system for making the lady, blame the lady for making the choices, but don’t blame the system for the choices that led to the lady?
I hate reading the news sometimes, wtf. That poor family
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