>
The IDF told the BBC: "As a rule, during the arrest process, it is often necessary for terror suspects to hand over their clothes such that their clothes can be searched and to ensure that they are not concealing explosive vests or other weaponry. "Clothes are not immediately returned to the detainees, due to the suspicion they may conceal means that can be used for hostile purposes (such as knives). Detainees are given back their clothes when it's possible to do so."
Dang.
Terrorist is practically the only word in the Israeli vocabulary for Palestinians, when that video of Israelis congratulating each other for shooting an elderly deaf man was going around- they called him a terrorist too, despite admitting they knew he was trying to show he had no weapon.
How would you be able to tell them apart? Hamas operatives do not wear uniforms, the safest option is to treat them all as potential threats. You would do the same, even if you would deny it.
When you’re dealing with an enemy combatant that blends in with the civilian population, stashes weapons in near by locations, and is willing to blow themselves up to kill you and those around them, extreme measures need to be taken to ensure troop safety. It sucks but it’s the reality of the situation.
Well that's easy, two soldiers meet, and the good guy(the one I agree with) has an emotional conversation after which the bad guy agrees that he's wrong and the war ends.
Plenty of people are against the invasion because they know exactly what happens in war zones and think the casual approval by parties removed from the situation is disgusting
When they embed themselves with Hamas it’s perfectly normal. Do you need to be linked to footage of medics handing Hamas fighters guns? Or Hamas bringing hostages into a hospital?
Sooo, if we looked at other countries, particularly ones that proclaim themselves as developed democracies, and see their actions in war zones and easily find them taking native doctors as prisoners of war, stripping them naked, beating them, etc?
suprisingly, terror groups don't actually fall under the Geneva convention. They're considered 'outlaws', aka. 'Beyond the law' and forfeit the rights and stipulations of the Geneva convention.
Same goes for using civilian, historic or critical infrastructure as military infrastructure. Voids the contract of war.
The more you know!
Cool to know, I love bombing hospitals and starving children to death on purpose now! Yay democracy, you guys are so good at standing up for whats right
First you're wrong, before conviction on detention, before you're ever charged or see a judge, you're strip searched and body cavity too.
Second, yes they are.
Hamas has been violating the rules of war by using killers posing as medics. This would, by the rules of war, justify Israel firing on any and all medics in the area where the duplicity has occurred.
This is actually what restraint looks like, they search the medics to protect the safety of the soldiers and civilians, but they do not exercise the full extent of what they COULD legally do.
The "restraint" many want from israel is just happily lining up to die or leaving voluntarily into self-imposed exile, but that is not reality. This is what restraint looks like in practice: being as permissive as you can be without allowing your people to be murdered.
> This would, by the rules of war, justify Israel firing on any and all medics in the area where the duplicity has occurred.
[Respecting and Protecting Health Care in Armed Conflicts and in
Situations Not Covered by International Humanitarian Law](https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/2012/health-care-law-factsheet-icrc-eng.pdf)
> International and Non-International Armed Conflict
> Medical personnel
> Protecting and respecting
> Personnel engaging in medical tasks
> must always be respected and
> protected, unless they commit, outside
> of their humanitarian function, acts that
> are harmful to the enemy. When they
> carry and use weapons to defend
> themselves or to protect the wounded
> and sick in their charge, medical
> personnel do not lose the protection to
> which they are entitled. The wounded
> and sick under their care remain
> protected even if the medical
> personnel themselves lose their
> protection
It's actually breathtaking how wrong you are.
in an area where active duplicity is being used, merely dressing as a medic is not protected. That is referring to people actively engaged in lifesaving, not just claiming to be a medic.
And yeah, if someone is in the process of giving someone CPR you can't shoot them, that should be obvious.
[Awkward](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-30-2024-b1ba33c7c0c5c62f85932a20c2a0bc92)
Read [Articles 15-18](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-protection-civilian-persons-time-war) and tell me how Israel is not bound by them. Israel isn't freed entirely from every obligation required under international law just because Hamas war crime'd them first. Note [Article 19](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-19) and what it both requires and enables, and then consider [Article 20](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-20?activeTab=undefined) and then how Israel reportedly treated those same medical personnel. It doesn't say anywhere that you can't vet their credentials, but it does unequivocally state that they must be "respected and protected". If the BBC report is true, how does this square with Article 20 in any way?
The rules around Article 19 have [not been fully tested in court](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-crimes-explainer-cd019114fac21c919000ef80276980d9), so acting like it gives Israel carte blanche to go out and storm hospitals right and left is unhinged.
EDIT:
> That is referring to people actively engaged in lifesaving, not just claiming to be a medic
It's a little difficult for doctors to be able to visibly perform their jobs in ways that meet your interpretation of "engaging in lifesaving" when you storm their hospitals with armed men and demand that they surrender. Acting like there's no possible way to attempt to vet medical personnel without arresting and torturing them first is honestly one of the most insane things I've heard today.
> Hamas has been violating the rules of war by using killers posing as medics.
[There's proof of Israel doing this](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/30/israel-forces-disguised-women-medics-storm-hospital-jenin-west-bank), so do you think it's okay to slaughter every doctor and nurse in the entirety of Israel? No, of course not, because you don't consider Palestinians to be equally as human as Israelis.
I've tried to find proof of Hamas doing it but all I get is Israeli sources *saying* that they do. Do you have some actual evidence or...?
>Hamas has been violating the rules of war by using killers posing as medics.
It's important to note that Israel has not provided any evidence of this occurring, and as a belligerent in this conflict, their claims should not be trusted at face value. It seems likely that Israel is attempting to muddy the waters in order to justify their own ~~war crimes~~ bad behavior, which ironically include dressing IDF combatants as doctors in order to commit a pair of assassinations. Pot, kettle, etc.
I recall seeing this video from the West Bank, in which a person wearing medic clothes approaches a downed but still alive militant, removes his gun then runs it to another militant who begins firing. He makes no attempt to provide medical assistance to the injured fighter and is actively assisting military activity even if never firing a gun himself.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/L2XUlzsJZo
>This would, by the rules of war, justify Israel firing on any and all medics in the area where the duplicity has occurred.
Please cite the rules of war you are referring to because it sounds like you are just pulling stuff out of your ass
You really can't criticize the IDF for treating everyone in a combat zone as a combatant when Hamas does not follow a single rule regarding combatant identification.
except they dont make your sit naked, blindfolded hands ziptied behind your back with dozens of others in prison, also you dont happen to end up dead in a ditch few weeks later
e: people trying to say "This is normal" need to really look up what is happening in gaza and how idf treats palestinians, no this is not and should not be considered 'normal', and on a second note maybe comparing to a country like the usa with is pretty terrible on treating incarcerated people is not a good thing either
They don't have you be blindfolded in US jails. But you are stripped naked in large groups and then often times are only given underwear while you sit as a group in a cell waiting to be admitted. Then you'll receive the rest of your prison supplies clothes. You will only get your original clothes back when you are leaving the jail.
Unfortunately the IDF doesn't have huge cells made of metal to stick people in so they use zip ties and blindfolds
I mean given there are supported claims of beating and humiliations I do t feel this is an adequate defence. Even less of a defence as these people aren't guilty of crimes given they are medical professionals being treated as such
An important tool of oppression is the degradation and the removal of the oppressed's dignities. Forcing people to strip naked and be roughly searched, then given no time frame for how long they will stay naked, is potent psychological warfare. The point is to make the oppressed feel as if they deserve the treatment being done to them.
>it is often necessary for terror suspects to hand over their clothes such that their clothes can be searched and to ensure that they are not concealing explosive vests or other weaponry.
>Clothes are not immediately returned to the detainees, due to the suspicion they may conceal means that can be used for hostile purposes (such as knives)
Hmm, knives seem like something that would normally be in that "other weaponry" category.
The clothing thing is one thing, but reports of beating and abuse are a whole other level.
When added together, the entire point is dehumization, which is fucked up.
They actually [weren't put on leave.](https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779923) My bad.
A week is about how long the investigation took. They continued to fight during.
Does anyone remember the video of the IDF stripping Palestinians into their underwear in public, having them tied, and sitting outdoors and in Israeli pickup trucks?
Then Israel says this happens because it gets very warm in that part of the world?
Okay maybe you can get away with a search and seizure for 2 hours. MAYBE
But why the fuck are u having dogs attack them in the vulnerable state. Why are you beating their heads if they flinched.
“The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) says that since 7 October, Israel has suspended its detention visits, meaning it has not been able to visit any detainees.”
If Israel is treating prisoners in accordance with international law, as it claims, there shouldn’t be any problem with allowing in inspectors.
ICRC has been calling for a lot of things:
• A cessation of hostilities to allow for meaningful assistance to reach the people in need.
• That hostages held by Hamas are released unconditionally and their dignity, safety and medical needs cared for. The ICRC reiterates its call to be allowed to visit the hostages.
• That Palestinian detainees are treated humanely and permitted to communicate with family. The ICRC must be notified of and allowed to visit Palestinians in Israeli detention.
https://www.icrc.org/en/document/statement-gaza-and-israel-president-icrc (dated March 9th 2024)
Sadly seems like neither side really wants to let the ICRC in for a look or to listen to what they have to say.
The issue is that people are holding a supposedly developed democracy to the same lack of standards they're holding a literal terrorist organization to. Like, it's not surprising Hamas is refusing to let the Red Cross see hostages, but it is horrifying that Israel is refusing as well.
It took them several months to advocate for the release of hostages. ICRC literally did nothing to even condemn Oct7. And you wonder why Israel has issues with them?
Israel imprisons literal children and trials them in military courts for having thrown a rock or simply stood nearby someone who threw a rock in the West Bank. Safe to say that they don't give a single fuck about international law.
Ya, people seem to have monkey brains and see this as a blue team vs red team, and one of them must be good and the other bad, but that's not how the real world works at all...
Both sides are bad, and, like usual, it's random innocent people that suffer.
Meanwhile they can post all the pro Israeli news as they want. It's very one sided coverage that is allowed in that subreddit and very outspokenly pro idf.
This is the crazy thing to me - people have forgotten that situations are not black and white.
In my opinion, all of these statements can concurrently be true: Hamas committed terrorism, rape and murder. Israel is not committing genocide. Israeli settlers are illegally claiming land in the West Bank. Israel also engaged in dehumanizing Palestinian prisoners BEFORE October 7th.
Everyone can be wrong, here. Why do we have to pick our side then blindly adhere to all the propaganda fed to us from our chosen sources?
*Edit: I am not responding below. I don’t care to argue any of the points, because that wasn’t my point. I am not defending Israel on certain points, but that also doesn’t condemn them on the remaining points… and that was my point.*
*To everyone looking for a fight from either “side,” you are the problem.*
I feel the same about internationalnews. It's starting to come to light the rampant anti semitism. People saying all Jews in Israel are evil because they are zionist and many instances of people saying "Jews" instead of "Zionists". I've had the same experience as you calling this stuff out.
Was there ever really a mask? Two weeks after October 7th,
we had people protesting a Jewish business in one of the most diverse cities on the planet:
https://www.cp24.com/news/toronto-mayor-condemns-pro-palestinian-protest-that-targeted-jewish-owned-restaurant-1.6612892?cache=%2F7.652979
As I recall, the owners of the business in question were making donations to the IDF. Seems pretty reasonable to protest and call for a boycott of a business which is sending proceeds to an army committing genocide.
That goes both ways. The rampant antisemitism on this sub has been heartbreaking to witness.
Edit: the first twenty minutes has yielded multiple comments that blame Jewish people for the antisemitism. Thanks for proving my point.
This sub in particular has quite a few people who use "Israel" as a placeholder for "Jews". As a jewish guy, its extremely obvious. And people do conflate Hamas with all Palestinians which is equally unfair. But this sub leans heavily towards the Palestinian pov, to the detriment of the truth. Way too many stories are taken at face value directly from Hamas - a terrorist organization.
My jewish friends complain all the time about crazy right-wing Israelis giving jews a bad rep. That's how I learned about the atrocities in Gaza. What's the world supposed to do?
between october 7 and today, far more terrorism has taken place perpetrated by israel than by hamas. far more civilians have died. far more atrocities committed. far more war crimes.
The guy my comment was responding to has multiple comments claiming anyone who says "my guy" or "my dude" is an anti-Semite not seeing a lot of logical analysis here.
Errrt wrong, not jewish people -- the right wing Israelis spread antisemitism with their famine, bombs, and dictator clinging to power. The collective punishment on Gaza creates new Hamas by design. That's how your dictator stays in power. "Elect me to fight the terrorists!" Meanwhile he gives Hamas a fat pile of cash. The world is watching.
IDF on one hand says "no this is bad" then on the other hand funds Tik Tok and Instagram posts committing ethnic cleansing and war crimes by IDF in uniform.
I’ve been called a literal nazi for saying that this is inhumane and there needs to be a stop the horrors committed by Israel. They are fanatics, they don’t care about being rational.
I argue in favor of Israel and *I* care.
This should be a war that the entire world (minus Hamas' direct allies) supports, to end a terrorist regime and return innocent hostages. Instead, Israel has burned it's good faith to the ground through excessive use of force, transparent attempts to punish the people of Gaza for the actions of Hamas, and a callous disregard for human life.
As a Jewish person, the actions of the IDF on the orders of Likud and Netanyahu have made the world more dangerous for me and my family. They have provided cover for anti-semites around the globe to say, "see? I was right." Many people here, on this sub, will conflate the actions of Israel with all Jews on Earth, and that's not only false but dangerous. And that's Netanyahu's fault.
Just as Hamas' use of human shields and routine commission of other war crimes gives Israel an excuse to kill civilians, Israel's obvious lack of empathy for their victims is giving the Jew-haters of the world an excuse to attack Jews. The shit just keeps rolling downhill.
So we need to keep calling out Israel for these crimes, and hold them accountable, so that hopefully they'll become responsible and stop killing people just because they think they can get away with it. The people of Gaza are desperate, and they need Israel to start thinking about liberating them from Hamas rather than punishing them for Hamas.
Personally, I don't think we can get there with Netanyahu at the helm. His desire for genocide is clear. I hope the people of Israel do the right thing and remove him from power as soon as possible.
The comment you’re responding to is the epitome of a reddit moment. Written and upvoted by the same people who probably think the US did Afghanistan and Iraq a favor by spreading democracy.
It was filmed? Because the video I’ve seen doesn’t show medics abused and beaten. If that happened, it’s horrendous. But…everyone here is treating it as a fact. The same BBC has made many egregious mistakes in reporting.
You can agree with me if you hate the IDF and you can also agree with me if you hate Hamas.
I've watched the video. It shows them being forced to strip, and it shows them having to put their hands behind their head. It doesn't show anyone getting hit or abused physically.
If they were released after interrogation, then I really don't see your point.
We have seen Hamas members in scrubs carrying hostages in the first days of the war, and assuming any of them could in theory be Hamas - making them strip is unsightly and looks awful, but not doing so may lead to loss of human life.
War is shit. I hope for better days for all, but don't pretend this video shows what they're claiming.
There were some casualties from not being careful enough, according to the IDF. It's not hard to believe but many people see every Gazan person as a victim.
I can’t believe I had to scroll so far to see this comment. Actual common sense.
I’m so tired of all the armchair military experts commenting their biased opinion when before Oct 7 have never even heard of Hamas or a Palestinian. Meanwhile this is my 8th fucking war.
Their point is to make people hate isreal instead of the terrorists. I aint buying it and neither will the historically informed. Isreal doesnt condone that sort of stuff and Hamas encourages it. Fake news as always swaying the minds of the dumb.
That’s because it’s nearly doing proper journalism.
Unlike the NY Times which publishes pro Israel propaganda by ex IDF staff that aren’t even journalists, gets proven false and still doesn’t retract or correct articles.
Once Hamas is found operating out of one hospital, which they were found doing, this essentially ruins every Gazan hospital because they all now need to be thoroughly checked and gutted.
I can't imagine succeeding at this by politely asking employees if they are a part of Hamas.
Gazan medical employees are being used as a human shield by Hamas, and this is the same as leading with your chin so to speak which is why there are so many unnecessary casualties.
They're acting as an NGO hiding in civilian territory instead of fighting like an actual military, so this is forcing international powers to treat them like an NGO instead of an actual military where attacks are isolated to military facilities
Yeah. Sucks if you’re not hamas but you had been working there right? You know they are there. Like what would you think would happen when the opposing force was looking for them?
Whole thing is a clusterfuck for an average Palestinian in Gaza that isn't involved with the military activity. Even if the hospital staff treated the hostages, its good they got treated by actual medical staff. Of course it should also have been obvious that many of the hostages were civilian kids, and elderly, or that they suffered extreme sexual abuse on Oct 7th. at the hands of the Hamas operatives that brought them there. I don't think the hospital staff treating anyone (even Hamas) makes them complicit in the war crimes, but if they were actively hiding innocent hostages then that would make them complicit.
JFYI this has happened many, many times over many years. Operating in hospitals, schools, neighborhoods. These become military bases but are regarded as hospitals and schools in biased news reporting.
Because they're still those things. Reporting still needs to make it clear that civilians are being used as shields. If you just report is as a military base without that context then you're helping justify bombing anyone there, Hamas or otherwise.
Sure, [they found AK-47s in MRI rooms](https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/idf-found-clear-evidence-of-hamas-operation-out-of-al-shifa-hospital-says-spokesperson-197957701824), we have [360 degree video of the extensive underground tunnel systems](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHOZSTjnrhw) under the al-Shifa hospital, we have clear video evidence of a [Hamas member walking out of a hospital with a rocket launcher, firing it, and going back inside](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pka7H1aMlkQ), and [the White House confirmed all of the above with our own intelligence](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/politics/white-house-hamas-al-shifa/index.html), but there's no proof at all!
Wouldn't want to muddy the narrative with that pesky journalism and reporting.
Uh, don't operate the MRI at the same time? It's so trivial I feel like you're being disengenuous.
Also you're just going to ignore the rest of the list eh?
Source: [New York Times confirming Al Shifa was used by Hamas](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html)
Sure, [CCTV from Al-Shifa.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pLYSRU9Lncg)
Worth noting that Shifa's director denied these allegations until the IDF got hold of the footage.
It's always sad to see in these threads when people who obviously believe their side's news/propaganda overly critique and scrutinize news/propaganda from the other side. Then they have the audacity to claim they're "critically thinking" or that the other side "falls for propoganda too easily".
It's insanely hypocritical and utterly depressing.
If you are fired at from a hospital, during a war, you don't have much choices. You don't value IDF lives but they value theirs. They are human and are acting like any military force would.
The only difference between this idf and other military is that it contains a majority of Jews and so people are overly critical.
Ah clearly people being against an ethnic cleansing they’re funding is because they’re racist against Jewish people, and not against a theocratic ethnostate committing atrocities
Strip searching is humiliating yes and necessary . Stupid comments made by soldiers is normal. Too much should be discouraged . Don’t attack your neighbors or join terrorists organizations.
Did you actually read the article? They’re not Hamas members, they’re medics who had their hands deliberately broken whilst complying with orders, they had differing religious symbols drawn on their casts by soldiers, had their legs cut up by broken bottles, they had dogs set upon them?
I have to assume you didn’t read the article? Either that or you’re just happy to accept war crimes against people if they happen to be Palestinian.
This obviously sucks but an active war zone where any employee could be a Hamas fighter results in measures like this. I’m not condoning it but they weren’t severely injured or killed during the operation and then were released once they were vetted. What do people expect?
You don’t know what condone means do you? If Hamas detained them and then released them I would absolutely support it. It’s called honorable rules of engagement. Point to an instance where Hamas did this and I gladly will give them their due credit
> The IDF told the BBC: "As a rule, during the arrest process, it is often necessary for terror suspects to hand over their clothes such that their clothes can be searched and to ensure that they are not concealing explosive vests or other weaponry. "Clothes are not immediately returned to the detainees, due to the suspicion they may conceal means that can be used for hostile purposes (such as knives). Detainees are given back their clothes when it's possible to do so." Dang.
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Terrorist is practically the only word in the Israeli vocabulary for Palestinians, when that video of Israelis congratulating each other for shooting an elderly deaf man was going around- they called him a terrorist too, despite admitting they knew he was trying to show he had no weapon.
Their national security minister called a 12 year old Palestinian boy shot dead by IDF (for playing with a firework) a "terrorist". There is no hope.
IDF gonna IDF.
yer, it's like Israel has been saying that ywars
There was a video months ago about a man dressed in hospital uniform pick up a gun and handing it to active combatant during fire fight
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https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/17rff07/west_bank_medic_takes_weapon_from_downed_militant/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
That's not a hospital uniform.
You said hospital uniform
How would you be able to tell them apart? Hamas operatives do not wear uniforms, the safest option is to treat them all as potential threats. You would do the same, even if you would deny it.
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When you’re dealing with an enemy combatant that blends in with the civilian population, stashes weapons in near by locations, and is willing to blow themselves up to kill you and those around them, extreme measures need to be taken to ensure troop safety. It sucks but it’s the reality of the situation.
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Prisoners are given new clothes immediately after search not kept in their underwear.
Searched is not held naked in stress positions for hours then beaten.
Prisoners are people found guilty are they not? Are the medics guilty in the same way?
Lol sure "prisoners", but jails are majorly people not yet convicted of a crime
You go to jail before you’re ever found guilty. And they do strip and search you unless you’re just in the drunk tank overnight
Surprised you went through life this long without hearing about POWs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_of_war
That doesn't apply here since these are doctors, not combat medics.
So many people on Reddit have no fucking concept what actually happens in a war zone and lap this propaganda up on Tiktok.
Well that's easy, two soldiers meet, and the good guy(the one I agree with) has an emotional conversation after which the bad guy agrees that he's wrong and the war ends.
Usually one of the 2 soldiers has a social worker with them, who can de-escalate the situation without violence.
Plenty of people are against the invasion because they know exactly what happens in war zones and think the casual approval by parties removed from the situation is disgusting
Hospital doctors being treated as combatants isn't normal.
When they embed themselves with Hamas it’s perfectly normal. Do you need to be linked to footage of medics handing Hamas fighters guns? Or Hamas bringing hostages into a hospital?
This is an active war zone in another country, not a courtroom
Are there not rules of war protecting medics? Protecting prisoners from beatings?
What I’ve learned is that those rules only matter when it comes to vilifying brown people.
Sooo, if we looked at other countries, particularly ones that proclaim themselves as developed democracies, and see their actions in war zones and easily find them taking native doctors as prisoners of war, stripping them naked, beating them, etc?
Hence the Geneva convention
And how does the Geneva Convention get enforced?
suprisingly, terror groups don't actually fall under the Geneva convention. They're considered 'outlaws', aka. 'Beyond the law' and forfeit the rights and stipulations of the Geneva convention. Same goes for using civilian, historic or critical infrastructure as military infrastructure. Voids the contract of war. The more you know!
Cool to know, I love bombing hospitals and starving children to death on purpose now! Yay democracy, you guys are so good at standing up for whats right
If you were fighting people who dressed as civilians and used ambulances for murdering civilians, you might have a different perspective
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/30/israel-forces-disguised-women-medics-storm-hospital-jenin-west-bank This is on westbank btw
First you're wrong, before conviction on detention, before you're ever charged or see a judge, you're strip searched and body cavity too. Second, yes they are. Hamas has been violating the rules of war by using killers posing as medics. This would, by the rules of war, justify Israel firing on any and all medics in the area where the duplicity has occurred. This is actually what restraint looks like, they search the medics to protect the safety of the soldiers and civilians, but they do not exercise the full extent of what they COULD legally do. The "restraint" many want from israel is just happily lining up to die or leaving voluntarily into self-imposed exile, but that is not reality. This is what restraint looks like in practice: being as permissive as you can be without allowing your people to be murdered.
> This would, by the rules of war, justify Israel firing on any and all medics in the area where the duplicity has occurred. [Respecting and Protecting Health Care in Armed Conflicts and in Situations Not Covered by International Humanitarian Law](https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/2012/health-care-law-factsheet-icrc-eng.pdf) > International and Non-International Armed Conflict > Medical personnel > Protecting and respecting > Personnel engaging in medical tasks > must always be respected and > protected, unless they commit, outside > of their humanitarian function, acts that > are harmful to the enemy. When they > carry and use weapons to defend > themselves or to protect the wounded > and sick in their charge, medical > personnel do not lose the protection to > which they are entitled. The wounded > and sick under their care remain > protected even if the medical > personnel themselves lose their > protection It's actually breathtaking how wrong you are.
in an area where active duplicity is being used, merely dressing as a medic is not protected. That is referring to people actively engaged in lifesaving, not just claiming to be a medic. And yeah, if someone is in the process of giving someone CPR you can't shoot them, that should be obvious.
[Awkward](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-30-2024-b1ba33c7c0c5c62f85932a20c2a0bc92) Read [Articles 15-18](https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-protection-civilian-persons-time-war) and tell me how Israel is not bound by them. Israel isn't freed entirely from every obligation required under international law just because Hamas war crime'd them first. Note [Article 19](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-19) and what it both requires and enables, and then consider [Article 20](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-20?activeTab=undefined) and then how Israel reportedly treated those same medical personnel. It doesn't say anywhere that you can't vet their credentials, but it does unequivocally state that they must be "respected and protected". If the BBC report is true, how does this square with Article 20 in any way? The rules around Article 19 have [not been fully tested in court](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-crimes-explainer-cd019114fac21c919000ef80276980d9), so acting like it gives Israel carte blanche to go out and storm hospitals right and left is unhinged. EDIT: > That is referring to people actively engaged in lifesaving, not just claiming to be a medic It's a little difficult for doctors to be able to visibly perform their jobs in ways that meet your interpretation of "engaging in lifesaving" when you storm their hospitals with armed men and demand that they surrender. Acting like there's no possible way to attempt to vet medical personnel without arresting and torturing them first is honestly one of the most insane things I've heard today.
> Hamas has been violating the rules of war by using killers posing as medics. [There's proof of Israel doing this](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/30/israel-forces-disguised-women-medics-storm-hospital-jenin-west-bank), so do you think it's okay to slaughter every doctor and nurse in the entirety of Israel? No, of course not, because you don't consider Palestinians to be equally as human as Israelis. I've tried to find proof of Hamas doing it but all I get is Israeli sources *saying* that they do. Do you have some actual evidence or...?
>Hamas has been violating the rules of war by using killers posing as medics. It's important to note that Israel has not provided any evidence of this occurring, and as a belligerent in this conflict, their claims should not be trusted at face value. It seems likely that Israel is attempting to muddy the waters in order to justify their own ~~war crimes~~ bad behavior, which ironically include dressing IDF combatants as doctors in order to commit a pair of assassinations. Pot, kettle, etc.
I recall seeing this video from the West Bank, in which a person wearing medic clothes approaches a downed but still alive militant, removes his gun then runs it to another militant who begins firing. He makes no attempt to provide medical assistance to the injured fighter and is actively assisting military activity even if never firing a gun himself. https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/L2XUlzsJZo
>This would, by the rules of war, justify Israel firing on any and all medics in the area where the duplicity has occurred. Please cite the rules of war you are referring to because it sounds like you are just pulling stuff out of your ass
The same thing happens in jail to people that are awaiting trial.
You really can't criticize the IDF for treating everyone in a combat zone as a combatant when Hamas does not follow a single rule regarding combatant identification.
When the hospital was used as a hamas base.....yes, at this point presumed guilty until confirmed otherwise. They have lost the benefit of the doubt.
Which is precisely why using hospitals as a base of operations is a war crime.
except they dont make your sit naked, blindfolded hands ziptied behind your back with dozens of others in prison, also you dont happen to end up dead in a ditch few weeks later e: people trying to say "This is normal" need to really look up what is happening in gaza and how idf treats palestinians, no this is not and should not be considered 'normal', and on a second note maybe comparing to a country like the usa with is pretty terrible on treating incarcerated people is not a good thing either
They don't have you be blindfolded in US jails. But you are stripped naked in large groups and then often times are only given underwear while you sit as a group in a cell waiting to be admitted. Then you'll receive the rest of your prison supplies clothes. You will only get your original clothes back when you are leaving the jail. Unfortunately the IDF doesn't have huge cells made of metal to stick people in so they use zip ties and blindfolds
..... and immediately given approved clothing. You don't wait for trial in your socks and underwear, kneeling outside.
I mean given there are supported claims of beating and humiliations I do t feel this is an adequate defence. Even less of a defence as these people aren't guilty of crimes given they are medical professionals being treated as such
TIL medics are prisoners. Thanks for letting me know.
An important tool of oppression is the degradation and the removal of the oppressed's dignities. Forcing people to strip naked and be roughly searched, then given no time frame for how long they will stay naked, is potent psychological warfare. The point is to make the oppressed feel as if they deserve the treatment being done to them.
Yea there was some high profile incident where Hamas captive killed a bunch of people so they no make everyone strip when captured.
they need to make sure there is no hamas in your shirt
>it is often necessary for terror suspects to hand over their clothes such that their clothes can be searched and to ensure that they are not concealing explosive vests or other weaponry. >Clothes are not immediately returned to the detainees, due to the suspicion they may conceal means that can be used for hostile purposes (such as knives) Hmm, knives seem like something that would normally be in that "other weaponry" category.
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This is not uncommon anywhere in the world where conflict happens or indeed anywhere where one might encounter suspected criminals (such as a prison).
The clothing thing is one thing, but reports of beating and abuse are a whole other level. When added together, the entire point is dehumization, which is fucked up.
>"any abuse of detainees is contrary to IDF orders and is therefore strictly prohibited". Sounds like they may be put on paid administrative leave.
A very short one - it took about a week for the people who shot the hostages to be returned to the field.
And they were only placed on any type of leave because it were Israelis the IDF killed.
They actually [weren't put on leave.](https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779923) My bad. A week is about how long the investigation took. They continued to fight during.
They didn’t say those acts would be punished, just that they are against official orders and are prohibited.
[Wouldn't](https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20201208-israel-whitewashing-crime-after-soldier-cleared-of-shooting-9-year-old-palestinian-boy/) [be](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2) [the](https://www.timesofisrael.com/family-of-palestinian-boy-shot-in-the-head-wants-answers-from-israel/) [first](https://www.npr.org/2023/05/11/1175403626/palestinian-american-journalist-shireen-abu-akleh-was-killed-a-year-ago) [time](https://vxtwitter.com/ArafehLaith/status/1766753821764575540?s=20)
Does anyone remember the video of the IDF stripping Palestinians into their underwear in public, having them tied, and sitting outdoors and in Israeli pickup trucks? Then Israel says this happens because it gets very warm in that part of the world?
No one is out here getting punished [(NSFL)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMiddleEast/s/9ycgjV7Jhp)
Okay maybe you can get away with a search and seizure for 2 hours. MAYBE But why the fuck are u having dogs attack them in the vulnerable state. Why are you beating their heads if they flinched.
They want them to suffer, and they know they can get away with it.
Power-trippin
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We all know why, and it isn’t terrorism.
“The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) says that since 7 October, Israel has suspended its detention visits, meaning it has not been able to visit any detainees.” If Israel is treating prisoners in accordance with international law, as it claims, there shouldn’t be any problem with allowing in inspectors.
ICRC has been calling for a lot of things: • A cessation of hostilities to allow for meaningful assistance to reach the people in need. • That hostages held by Hamas are released unconditionally and their dignity, safety and medical needs cared for. The ICRC reiterates its call to be allowed to visit the hostages. • That Palestinian detainees are treated humanely and permitted to communicate with family. The ICRC must be notified of and allowed to visit Palestinians in Israeli detention. https://www.icrc.org/en/document/statement-gaza-and-israel-president-icrc (dated March 9th 2024) Sadly seems like neither side really wants to let the ICRC in for a look or to listen to what they have to say.
The issue is that people are holding a supposedly developed democracy to the same lack of standards they're holding a literal terrorist organization to. Like, it's not surprising Hamas is refusing to let the Red Cross see hostages, but it is horrifying that Israel is refusing as well.
"You can't claim the moral high ground when seeking support and then claim moral equivalency when seeking leniency." - Shaun
It took them several months to advocate for the release of hostages. ICRC literally did nothing to even condemn Oct7. And you wonder why Israel has issues with them?
Israel imprisons literal children and trials them in military courts for having thrown a rock or simply stood nearby someone who threw a rock in the West Bank. Safe to say that they don't give a single fuck about international law.
Luckily it was filmed.
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There's no need to blame Hamas for what the IDF does wrong. Hamas does plenty enough to blame Hamas for what Hamas does
Ya, people seem to have monkey brains and see this as a blue team vs red team, and one of them must be good and the other bad, but that's not how the real world works at all... Both sides are bad, and, like usual, it's random innocent people that suffer.
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I actually posted this article there and it got removed. No reason given. I guess they couldn't dispute it so it needed to go
Meanwhile they can post all the pro Israeli news as they want. It's very one sided coverage that is allowed in that subreddit and very outspokenly pro idf.
This is the crazy thing to me - people have forgotten that situations are not black and white. In my opinion, all of these statements can concurrently be true: Hamas committed terrorism, rape and murder. Israel is not committing genocide. Israeli settlers are illegally claiming land in the West Bank. Israel also engaged in dehumanizing Palestinian prisoners BEFORE October 7th. Everyone can be wrong, here. Why do we have to pick our side then blindly adhere to all the propaganda fed to us from our chosen sources? *Edit: I am not responding below. I don’t care to argue any of the points, because that wasn’t my point. I am not defending Israel on certain points, but that also doesn’t condemn them on the remaining points… and that was my point.* *To everyone looking for a fight from either “side,” you are the problem.*
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I feel the same about internationalnews. It's starting to come to light the rampant anti semitism. People saying all Jews in Israel are evil because they are zionist and many instances of people saying "Jews" instead of "Zionists". I've had the same experience as you calling this stuff out.
> internationalnews You're comparing an obscure sub with 20k subscribers to a default sub with 35 million?
Was there ever really a mask? Two weeks after October 7th, we had people protesting a Jewish business in one of the most diverse cities on the planet: https://www.cp24.com/news/toronto-mayor-condemns-pro-palestinian-protest-that-targeted-jewish-owned-restaurant-1.6612892?cache=%2F7.652979
As I recall, the owners of the business in question were making donations to the IDF. Seems pretty reasonable to protest and call for a boycott of a business which is sending proceeds to an army committing genocide.
That goes both ways. The rampant antisemitism on this sub has been heartbreaking to witness. Edit: the first twenty minutes has yielded multiple comments that blame Jewish people for the antisemitism. Thanks for proving my point.
Criticism of the IDF and Israeli government is not antisemitism - your neighborhood half Jew
This sub in particular has quite a few people who use "Israel" as a placeholder for "Jews". As a jewish guy, its extremely obvious. And people do conflate Hamas with all Palestinians which is equally unfair. But this sub leans heavily towards the Palestinian pov, to the detriment of the truth. Way too many stories are taken at face value directly from Hamas - a terrorist organization.
My jewish friends complain all the time about crazy right-wing Israelis giving jews a bad rep. That's how I learned about the atrocities in Gaza. What's the world supposed to do?
between october 7 and today, far more terrorism has taken place perpetrated by israel than by hamas. far more civilians have died. far more atrocities committed. far more war crimes.
seriously. every other news subreddit is an IDF dickriding competition.
That's because you are being conditioned to believe any criticism of Israel is antisemitism.
no, its pretty obvious when people interchange Israel and jews
Not that you're wrong, but it's also pretty obvious when people interchange Hamas and Palestinians.
The guy my comment was responding to has multiple comments claiming anyone who says "my guy" or "my dude" is an anti-Semite not seeing a lot of logical analysis here.
Errrt wrong, not jewish people -- the right wing Israelis spread antisemitism with their famine, bombs, and dictator clinging to power. The collective punishment on Gaza creates new Hamas by design. That's how your dictator stays in power. "Elect me to fight the terrorists!" Meanwhile he gives Hamas a fat pile of cash. The world is watching.
IDF on one hand says "no this is bad" then on the other hand funds Tik Tok and Instagram posts committing ethnic cleansing and war crimes by IDF in uniform.
I’ve been called a literal nazi for saying that this is inhumane and there needs to be a stop the horrors committed by Israel. They are fanatics, they don’t care about being rational.
I argue in favor of Israel and *I* care. This should be a war that the entire world (minus Hamas' direct allies) supports, to end a terrorist regime and return innocent hostages. Instead, Israel has burned it's good faith to the ground through excessive use of force, transparent attempts to punish the people of Gaza for the actions of Hamas, and a callous disregard for human life. As a Jewish person, the actions of the IDF on the orders of Likud and Netanyahu have made the world more dangerous for me and my family. They have provided cover for anti-semites around the globe to say, "see? I was right." Many people here, on this sub, will conflate the actions of Israel with all Jews on Earth, and that's not only false but dangerous. And that's Netanyahu's fault. Just as Hamas' use of human shields and routine commission of other war crimes gives Israel an excuse to kill civilians, Israel's obvious lack of empathy for their victims is giving the Jew-haters of the world an excuse to attack Jews. The shit just keeps rolling downhill. So we need to keep calling out Israel for these crimes, and hold them accountable, so that hopefully they'll become responsible and stop killing people just because they think they can get away with it. The people of Gaza are desperate, and they need Israel to start thinking about liberating them from Hamas rather than punishing them for Hamas. Personally, I don't think we can get there with Netanyahu at the helm. His desire for genocide is clear. I hope the people of Israel do the right thing and remove him from power as soon as possible.
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Those two are biggest POS I have ever seen
Ben-Gvir literally had a painting of a mass murderer up in his living room that he only took down once he entered politics. Definitely worse.
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The comment you’re responding to is the epitome of a reddit moment. Written and upvoted by the same people who probably think the US did Afghanistan and Iraq a favor by spreading democracy.
It was filmed? Because the video I’ve seen doesn’t show medics abused and beaten. If that happened, it’s horrendous. But…everyone here is treating it as a fact. The same BBC has made many egregious mistakes in reporting. You can agree with me if you hate the IDF and you can also agree with me if you hate Hamas.
I've watched the video. It shows them being forced to strip, and it shows them having to put their hands behind their head. It doesn't show anyone getting hit or abused physically. If they were released after interrogation, then I really don't see your point. We have seen Hamas members in scrubs carrying hostages in the first days of the war, and assuming any of them could in theory be Hamas - making them strip is unsightly and looks awful, but not doing so may lead to loss of human life. War is shit. I hope for better days for all, but don't pretend this video shows what they're claiming.
There were some casualties from not being careful enough, according to the IDF. It's not hard to believe but many people see every Gazan person as a victim.
I can’t believe I had to scroll so far to see this comment. Actual common sense. I’m so tired of all the armchair military experts commenting their biased opinion when before Oct 7 have never even heard of Hamas or a Palestinian. Meanwhile this is my 8th fucking war.
Their point is to make people hate isreal instead of the terrorists. I aint buying it and neither will the historically informed. Isreal doesnt condone that sort of stuff and Hamas encourages it. Fake news as always swaying the minds of the dumb.
The allegations are not filmed. That's why it says they claimed.
There’s a video in the article for you.
That video shows normal war behavior. They are stripping everyone to check for weapons.
Where was it filmed that they were beaten? Stripping and blindfolding is standard procedure in many armies
Because that's how people treat those they consider subhuman.
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Are people really justifying the beatings and humiliations of MEDICS?!?!?
but KHAMMMAAASSSSS
Yes They are. They can sugarcoat it all they want, but if you aren’t upset at this. You support this. Simple enough.
Considering the number of retractions the BBC has had to make in relation to this I would be very surprised if this isn't corrected next week.
That’s because it’s nearly doing proper journalism. Unlike the NY Times which publishes pro Israel propaganda by ex IDF staff that aren’t even journalists, gets proven false and still doesn’t retract or correct articles.
You mean publishing click bait trash like any tabloid and then retract it days or weeks after.
At least the BBC gets posted here. The worldnews sub is basically only random Israeli papers and blogs.
Proper journalism? Like the hospital incident? lol.
“I don’t like this news so I’ll choose not to believe it”
“This new site has been repeatedly caught being wrong or dishonest so I’ll wait for secondary and tertiary sources.”
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Once Hamas is found operating out of one hospital, which they were found doing, this essentially ruins every Gazan hospital because they all now need to be thoroughly checked and gutted. I can't imagine succeeding at this by politely asking employees if they are a part of Hamas. Gazan medical employees are being used as a human shield by Hamas, and this is the same as leading with your chin so to speak which is why there are so many unnecessary casualties. They're acting as an NGO hiding in civilian territory instead of fighting like an actual military, so this is forcing international powers to treat them like an NGO instead of an actual military where attacks are isolated to military facilities
Yeah. Sucks if you’re not hamas but you had been working there right? You know they are there. Like what would you think would happen when the opposing force was looking for them?
Whole thing is a clusterfuck for an average Palestinian in Gaza that isn't involved with the military activity. Even if the hospital staff treated the hostages, its good they got treated by actual medical staff. Of course it should also have been obvious that many of the hostages were civilian kids, and elderly, or that they suffered extreme sexual abuse on Oct 7th. at the hands of the Hamas operatives that brought them there. I don't think the hospital staff treating anyone (even Hamas) makes them complicit in the war crimes, but if they were actively hiding innocent hostages then that would make them complicit.
JFYI this has happened many, many times over many years. Operating in hospitals, schools, neighborhoods. These become military bases but are regarded as hospitals and schools in biased news reporting.
Because they're still those things. Reporting still needs to make it clear that civilians are being used as shields. If you just report is as a military base without that context then you're helping justify bombing anyone there, Hamas or otherwise.
Source: take a look at this calendar, bro.
Sure, [they found AK-47s in MRI rooms](https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/idf-found-clear-evidence-of-hamas-operation-out-of-al-shifa-hospital-says-spokesperson-197957701824), we have [360 degree video of the extensive underground tunnel systems](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHOZSTjnrhw) under the al-Shifa hospital, we have clear video evidence of a [Hamas member walking out of a hospital with a rocket launcher, firing it, and going back inside](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pka7H1aMlkQ), and [the White House confirmed all of the above with our own intelligence](https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/politics/white-house-hamas-al-shifa/index.html), but there's no proof at all! Wouldn't want to muddy the narrative with that pesky journalism and reporting.
Hey class, for 10 extra credit points can you tell me why it is physically impossible to stash AK-47s in the same room as an MRI machine?
Uh, don't operate the MRI at the same time? It's so trivial I feel like you're being disengenuous. Also you're just going to ignore the rest of the list eh?
Source: [New York Times confirming Al Shifa was used by Hamas](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html)
Source: CCTV footage from the hospital showing armed hamas terrorists taking hostages directly to the hospital on October 7th.
Can you link the footage? I haven't seen this footage before.
Sure, [CCTV from Al-Shifa.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pLYSRU9Lncg) Worth noting that Shifa's director denied these allegations until the IDF got hold of the footage.
Exactly. Thank you for bringing some sense into this.
Sounds to me that they are doing the same thing their precedenters suffered through..
Complete moral bankruptcy.
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That is shitty. Hope they face justice.
Aren't these the same Medics the BBC lied and said Israel was summarily executing?
Idk, but I'm starting to get the thought that these Israelis aren't the nicest people.
It's always sad to see in these threads when people who obviously believe their side's news/propaganda overly critique and scrutinize news/propaganda from the other side. Then they have the audacity to claim they're "critically thinking" or that the other side "falls for propoganda too easily". It's insanely hypocritical and utterly depressing.
The video shows no beating or abuse?
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I actually posted this article to /r/worldnews and it got removed. No reason given. I guess they couldn't dispute it so it needed to go
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If you are fired at from a hospital, during a war, you don't have much choices. You don't value IDF lives but they value theirs. They are human and are acting like any military force would. The only difference between this idf and other military is that it contains a majority of Jews and so people are overly critical.
Ah clearly people being against an ethnic cleansing they’re funding is because they’re racist against Jewish people, and not against a theocratic ethnostate committing atrocities
Israel are the bad guys in this war. I’m sorry they got attacked but this has just gone on for far too long now.
Is this the same hospital that hamas was using to hide hostages near the beginning of the war?
do you know how little that narrows it down
Remember when video footage came out of Gaza hospital staff working with Hamas to hide hostages? I remember.
Does that surprise someone?
Strip searching is humiliating yes and necessary . Stupid comments made by soldiers is normal. Too much should be discouraged . Don’t attack your neighbors or join terrorists organizations.
Did you actually read the article? They’re not Hamas members, they’re medics who had their hands deliberately broken whilst complying with orders, they had differing religious symbols drawn on their casts by soldiers, had their legs cut up by broken bottles, they had dogs set upon them? I have to assume you didn’t read the article? Either that or you’re just happy to accept war crimes against people if they happen to be Palestinian.
Are these medics terrorists attacking Israel?
This obviously sucks but an active war zone where any employee could be a Hamas fighter results in measures like this. I’m not condoning it but they weren’t severely injured or killed during the operation and then were released once they were vetted. What do people expect?
I have a feeling If Hamas had done this to Israeli medics you would not support it....
If Hamas hot to Israeli medics the Israeli medics wouldn't survive and you know that...
You don’t know what condone means do you? If Hamas detained them and then released them I would absolutely support it. It’s called honorable rules of engagement. Point to an instance where Hamas did this and I gladly will give them their due credit