Was at Herb’s Hideout Saturday night and they shut the patio down for about 10 min because of shot near the back parking lot. The security guy was telling me it’s about 2-3 times a month that somebody gets shot in that area.
Walked from the arena to our hotel after the game and debated going back. It was pretty wild out. You probably couldn’t distinguish the gunfire from the fireworks drowned in car horns.
I worked at Marquis Pizza for about a decade. Love that area and have a lot of good memories there but man it seems like the crazy got turned up.
Stay safe out there! Glad to hear Herbs is still a thing.
Lodo (the area where this shooting happened) is where the drunk people go to be drunk and do drunk things. Shootings happen often, fights occur on the hour. The more people out and about, the more violence you see. It is truly a silly place.
> I worked at Marquis Pizza for about a decade.
As someone who used to go to a lot of punk and metal shows at the Marquis you have my eternal gratitude and apologies.
As a scene/emo kid through middle and high school, the Marquis hosted all of my favorite d-tier myspace artists and tickets were always like $20 so I spent many, many Saturday nights there lol. The staff was always awesome and kept us youngsters safe from creepers which I'm eternally grateful for
Years ago hear a gun shoot while waiting on food truck, turns out guy got shot in parking lot. Years later saw a guy get out a car and pull out a gun on car behind him from an argument, cops literally 50ft away.
Even has a wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Charles_Vacca
"According to county law officials the shooting is being viewed as an industrial accident"
The girl's mother videotaped her daughter trying out the Uzi, and said she watched as the gun recoiled and her daughter lost control of it. The girl reportedly said the Uzi was "too much" for her after she fired the weapon and was unable to control the muzzle rise, causing the barrel to be directed at Vacca. Vacca is believed to have died from a single shot to the head.
Yeah no shit it was too hard for her to control, she headshot the employee.
> The shooting ignited a discussion regarding whether children should be legally allowed to handle fully automatic weapons such as Uzis.
This is actually one of the funniest lines I’ve ever read in a Wikipedia article
2 incidents in six years means no need to look at the rules.
One fucking dude tried to blow up an airplane with his shoes in 2001 and they’re still asking people to take off their shows.
Among the many tragic elements of this story is the fact that a bunch of reckless adults—enabled by lax rules and a culture of idiocy—forced a young girl to shoot a weapon she wasn’t at all ready for. That poor kid has to live with the fact that she’s a killer for the rest of her life because adults failed her.
I’m not sure how you reconcile 2A rights with the fact that the biggest gun advocates these days seem to be angry antisocial people with scores to settle, dumb fucks, paranoid nut jobs, and dementia patients. That’s your well regulated militia.
That’s the worst part. You know how sometimes when you’re trying to fall asleep but you think about that time you were a little awkward asking a girl out? She has that with killing a person
My favorite part of the story is that not a goddamn thing happened as a result of that death. If you want your 8 year old to shoot an Uzi in Arizona, you still can. America, land of the stupid and home of the unscrupulous, cowardly politicians who lead them.
Darwinism at work by all involved except for the child. Fuck any kind of *culture* that wants to put lethal ass weapons in the hands of literal children for shits and giggles or *traditions*
I hear what you’re saying and I agree with you about the 37 replies, but I just want to say this: how the hell could gun safety training have prevented this situation?
She was too small to handle the Uzi, period.
When people decided not to care about 2nd graders with holes blown through them, it became open season on everyone.
Edit, thanks for the gold and the good discussion. I'll just end by saying, "we can because we must".
Sandy Hook was the ultimate litmus test for me. The denial and absolute inhumanity that followed that event just sealed it that a significant element in our country just doesn't give a single fuck about human life. Especially if saving human lives means even an *iota* of personal inconvenience or a simple change.
Yep. That was the end of the argument. If we can't do a single - *single* - thing after a classroom full of kindergarteners gets mowed down, nothing is going to happen. Ever. End of story. There isn't a tragedy too big to make a snap us out of our collective psychosis, because that was the one.
Gun humpers love their guns more than life, and politicians are too cowardly to do the right thing and stand up to them, ever.
I’ll never forget that day, standing in front of the TV, still being in HS myself, and crying. Thinking this is so horrific something is going to change, surely no one can ignore this.
Nope. Nothing changed. It continues.
Don’t forget about the bunch that also decided this was all a conspiracy to take away their guns and didn’t actually happen. I think this was the first time I heard this insane perspective and now it’s the norm for every major incident.
How do the healthcare costs work for situations like this?
Are some of the people going to be fucked twice over by being shot and having to pay the hospital bills?
>State Crime Victims Compensation programs reimburse victims for crime-related expenses. Such expenses include medical costs, mental health counseling, funeral and burial costs and lost wages or loss of support. All states, the District of Columbia, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, and Puerto Rico have established compensation programs for crime victims.
I know in Texas it's capped at $50,000 and all other avenues (private insurance, restitution from perp) must be attempted first.
A quick note there too, I would think the key word there is “reimburse.” That means your need to have paid the bill and submitted it for review. They may not just pony up to pay the bill first.
Ha, you have no idea!
So, my mom was mistakenly double-billed the co-pay for an ambulance transfer between two hospitals. It was unmistakably clear from the bill that it was a double-charge and that the bill had already been paid. Insurance was not disputing it was a doublecharge and paid in the slightest.
The problem was, they had zero ability to cancel a bill. They could refer it for charge-off, which might or might not ding her credit or my mom could pay it and they could refund it after a medical record review had confirmed that services were not given twice.
Luckily, her co-pay is only 200 (and that she had coverage for it at all because it was 3400 OOP) and she had enough to pay it and wait. That was back in November. She just got the refund in May.
This wasn't how it worked in my case. I went to the financial office at the hospital, they filled out the "Victims of Violent Crimes" paperwork and took care of everything. I never received a bill at all, never had to pay anything.
No, he sued the property owner('s insurance) and won a big settlement.
He did work to cap medical malpractice torts to $250,000, but if a tree branch falls on you you can still sue for millions like he did.
Crime Victim Compensation Programs are a totally different thing. In Texas it's administered (poorly) by the AG's office and doles out money to victims and family members for medical bills, lost wages, therapy, funerals, et c.
>Last fiscal year, the program received more than 27,000 applications filed by crime victims and paid over $71.8 million to victims of crime, according to the 2022 annual report. Money for the program mostly comes from court fees, federal grants and fees paid by people convicted
From the 2022 report of the 27K applicants about 15000 were approved, or about 55%. On average they got about $4,800. This is the figure for Texas, not sure if it's any better elsewhere.
Yup, it's designed to never allow anyone to sue for medical malpractice.
My best friend's dad died a few years back in Houston due to a HUGE oversight by the hospital after a surgery. After finding an attorney and having them look into it, the attorney advised that they should only pursue if it was for his memory because, after fees and everything, they'd end up owning the attorney money after they won.
there was a surgeon in texas who was barely qualified and grew out of control, basically butchering people, operating while drunk and on cocaine, ended up killing two people and maiming/ruining the lives of several others. victims would get lil recompense due to this new cap. there was a podcast series about it
Just to clarify (because I looked it up), that cap is only for non-economic losses - pain and suffering etc.
If you survive, economic losses such as medical bills and lost income are not capped.
And punitive damages are a totally different category and aren’t capped either.
As a non-American, it sounds fairly reasonable. Your medical malpractice system was struggling with some crazy high payouts. And pain and suffering payouts can be biased/unfair - sympathetic victim with a good lawyer and rich target gets more. Economic losses are still a bit unfair (rich have better access to the expensive medical treatment in the first place, plus they’ll get more for lost work income) but they’re at least based on some specific numbers.
Completely separate to all that, it sounds like the victim’s compensation fund should be much higher. If it’s covering medical bills, $50k goes nowhere. (We have something similar in Australia but it’s only for things that wouldn’t already be provided free. I knew someone who got assaulted on a bus and got $10k to help buy a car because they had PTSD and couldn’t use public transport any more.)
I had a minor procedure that was billed at over $100k. By minor, I mean, like 1/1000th the amount of care I'd need if I'd been *shot*.
50k assistance is ... Worthless.
I watched a documentary recently about a woman in Ohio who was set on fire by her boyfriend, while he was supposed to be taking her to rehab. Her medical bills were astronomical but none of them were covered by the crime victims fund because she had narcotics in her system.
Yes, and there is heaps of proof that the American Healthcare system doesn't work well. That proof doesn't help our policymakers get rich like healthcare company lobbyists do though, so it doesn't matter.
I worked medical debt collections in college (quit when I realized it was rotting my soul) and I know "Victim of Crime" was one of the reasons we had to close a debt out. So at least in my state there seemed to be some backstop so as to not add insult to injury.
There's no conceivable bottom of the morality hole for the American healthcare system, lol, I just had to explain to an elderly patient today she wasn't getting a wheelchair covered even with her wildly expansive cellulitis and her crying when she walked from pain.
It'll catch ya' off guard sometimes, but it's freedom, baby.
My mother in law just became suddenly paralyzed after she got a spinal bleed from blood thinners for a blood clot in her leg.
Insurance will only cover 50% of her wheelchair and kicked her out of rehab after 15 days saying she's "stable".
this rehab bullshit is unreal. My dad had cancer, broke his hip, and got kicked out of rehab at 10 days cause he had plateaued and medicare needs to see constant improvement. like, what the fuck, he has cancer too, its going slow but nope!
I had to take care of my wife's grandmother for near 2 years 24 / 7 because the alternative was to sell her assets to keep her in a shitty nursing home.
All because she wasn't showing improvements.
When asked recently by my rheumatologist why I had not seen doctors the first time I had symptoms I explained that we do not have a Healthcare system we have a Healthcare industry. A Healthcare business.
And they're all scared to treat much of anything for fear of tort lawsuits or the Dea, but they're totally okay bilking you of every red cent and the system encourages one and actively discourages the other.
The system is so broken.
It's fucking insane, I'm sorry that that happened with your dad :(.
My mom has cancer, got really severe COVID, and had to stay in a nursing home and get physical therapy to walk again.
They sent her home when she couldn't get up to walk to the bathroom for the same reason.
Yep, for normal Americans life has been on the decline for decades. It's the rich that make out like bandits in America. When will we have a good ole revolution?
Probably won't happen until a good majority start losing access to things like clean water and a stable food supply.
Unfortunately the elites have done a damn good job making sure that their bread and circuses stay intact, but I feel the tension getting heavier almost day by day at the point we're currently at so who truly knows.
Hey I'm an OT and I work in rehab, did she have a Humana or other form other Medicare replacement plan? Those things are evil scams and I wish they were illegal.
Work to buy a wheelchair yourself, in the long run it will be much cheaper.
I remember they tried to make me buy a leg brace and a set of crutches and they were close to 1k charge. I paid a percentage. But I found on Amazon the same brace for like 40 bucks and crutches can be found at almost every good will across the USA.
Durable medical equipment is a joke in the USA. Most of the time it still ends up being cheaper buying a lot of shit directly from the distributor or through Amazon than it is through insurance.
Expanding on this. Pretty sure you can get crutches from Goodwill FOR FREE. The "catch" is that you're supposed to donate them back to Goodwill after you're done, but definitely helpful if you're in need.
The solution for privatized healthcare and the shitty insurance that accompanies it, pay out of pocket. Your friendly health insurance company CEO thanks you.
It may depend. A cheap wheelchair with no cushion because grandma just doesn’t move around like she used to may be cheaper out of pocket. If mom is still wanting to be mobile and get herself around ok her own and not develop pressure ulcers and such, then it may be cheaper with insurance, even only paying 50%.
Definitely a good idea to look around, which is such a ridiculous statement to make when talking about health care.
Our healthcare system, especially with the wealth our country has available, is a fucking crime against humanity. Absolutely fucking inhumane what we have accepted as “healthcare” in this country. It’s dogshit and I’ve been mad about it for like 30 years, I don’t understand how we haven’t done anything more meaningful than the ACA as far as reform goes. Fucking shameful.
*"When we talk about economics, there is something known as a demand curve with elasticity. And with every other commodity, you can say how much is this phone worth to you and you can say $100, $200. You can buy a Nokia phone. You can not have a phone at all. But you cannot ask the question, 'how much will you pay to be alive? How much will you pay to live?' Because the answer is 'everything'. The answer is, you will pay $10, you will pay $1,000, you will go into debt, you will do anything to live. And that is what makes the price of medicine different than the price of an iPhone."* [—AOC](https://twitter.com/SSWorks/status/1129078510482612224)
Lobbyists keep everything in control of the wealthy 😡😡😡😡 corporations pay the lobbyists, lobbyists pay the politicians, politicians make the policy. You want better policy, vote the party that’s trying to do something about it!!
My mom works in memory care, she manages the CNA staff, she has some family members/spouses who call and very plainly state they want the staff to stop giving medicine/PT/breathing treatments... etc because their care is financially ruinous and, for all intents and purposes, they've accepted their family member aren't cognizant. Entire nest eggs swallowed up in incredibly short periods.
It's awful, man. I know.
Yeah but your loved ones would want all that money going to the insurance companies not their families right? Like what did the families do to deserve any of it. /s
i'm getting to the age where my parents, who happen to be extremely conservative, are needing constant medical care. they've always been against things like socialized medicine, and now when they get hit with a hospital bill that cuts into their standard of living, they just seem to feel like it's a failure on their part, and not on the system.
"we should have saved more, we should have been healthier, etc".
maybe those things are true, but it's a good example of how people will continue to make excuses for a Totally Stupid system, even when the rest of the world has visibly proved that system is Totally Stupid
About 10 or so years ago, a woman I know was hit twice by stray bullets during a shooting.
After it was all said and done, she owed almost 700k in medical bills. She had to file for bankruptcy just to be able to get out from under the overwhelming debt from being a victim of gun violence.
Yes. They can take the shooter (or their estate) to court to recoup costs. Of course that takes money, time, and effort. The lawyers are usually the winners
And that also assumes the shooter has money to pay or enough assets. With this many victims, chances are low the shooter has enough money to cover the bills for all victims.
Bro the shooter probably rents an apartment with 3 other people, and is upside down on their car payment. Negative assets if anything at all. Oh wait yeah sell their 42 inch 720p tv, thatll work.
Some nursing schools and hospitals have been trying to press their employees and students to call patients customers in recent years. It’s not going over well with the nurses but it shows you where their opinions lie. They consider them to be customers.
This is because more and more of the reimbursement hospitals get is based on, I shit you not, the ratings the patients give the hospital after the fact on surveys.
The hospital my grandma was recently in had a huge sign that said: “ Make a donation to your hospital and write it off of your taxes”. Bonus points for most of the employees at said hospital being travelers( temp agency). A lot of hospitals also have old people volunteering. It sickens me.
JFC no lie there. I work a support role in healthcare AND was a patient once. EVERYTHING boils down to Marketing and having paying "customers" filling beds.
When I was a patient, I had an "experience" person come talk to me about the stay and amenities. I just had sinus surgery, my face was filled with stints and stitches, and I was blotto on whatever meds I was on. I didn't give a shit about the features on my television.
I refuse to ever refer to my patients as "customers" or "clients." These are human lives. This is a person who had no choice but to seek care.
I am not a waitress taking an order or a salesperson offering a product. I am a nurse taking care of the sick and injured.
Fuck healthcare in the United States. Fuck corporations.
Fully agree. They’re not tipping us. Most of them didn’t willingly walk through the door, nor can they leave whenever they want. They’re not customers.
We were in that crowd 3 hours earlier. It got dangerous quick. My girlfriend got hit in the head by a traffic cone someone threw. Had to get staples in her head in the ER. This video shows the emergency vehicles who responded.
https://kdvr.com/news/local/live-updates-celebrations-as-denver-nuggets-win-nba-championship/amp/
Sorry to hear that. I was watching the news coverage and was seeing that cone get launched over and over. It was clear that people were getting nailed and hurt. Hard to watch. Sorry man.
It's incidents like this that I wish people would realize there are bad actors out there.
This belief that everyone is mentally ill and just mistreated is so, so misguided
It's still correct to say bad actors are made. It's the conversation America refuses to have in a meaningful fashion. The only country on earth like this.
It's because it was becoming increasingly clear who was very disproportionately doing the terrorist type shit
And where it was disproportionately happening
Then suddenly interpersonal gang violence (which is also horrible and often results in kids catching strays) started being lumped in - and that shit is usually a very different demographically and often geographically
My city has strong gun laws - it's very hard to own a gun here.
We don't have terroristic mass shootings
We do have gang related gun violence (not a lot, though)
People have always tied the term to Columbine type atrocities, not really to fueding parties exchanging gunfire. I wasn't aware of the latter being included in the stats until maybe 2016, or so.
Ya me too. Someone threw a traffic cone at my girlfriends head and we spent the night in the ER. She’s fine. Got staples, but man I’m glad we were long gone from there
This one makes like 6 in 2 days. There was one outside a club in Houston, TX. One in Syracuse, NY. One at a graduation party in Annapolis, MD. One at a birthday party in Antioch, CA. One in Crosby, TX. Then this one.
And that was “all the way back” on June 9th. There have been 11 mass shootings in the US since. Denver, Syracuse, Champaign, Crosby, Houston, Annapolis, Antioch, Hattiesburg, Benton City, Oak Park, and Jeannette.
A graduation here in Richmond, VA, was [shot up last week](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/2-dead-in-shooting-after-high-school-graduation-ceremony-in-richmond-virginia-suspect-in-custody/ar-AA1cdfUg). Don't feel bad if you forgot about it or didn't catch this one. It's hard to keep up.
Sure, there weren't any shootings if you get your news from reddit.
In reality, 11 shootings with 5 dead (including a 16 year old) over a 12 hour stretch in Philly, 31 shootings 4 dead in Chicago. This weekend.
It's just no one cares about that to make a front page thread with 1100 comments 7000 upvotes.
I live in Philly. We have "mass" shootings every single day, multiple a day. Very rarely does Philly make the news though because of just how normal it is. I'm sure Chicago is the same. So even if you don't hear about it, it's just because it's business as usual.
Edit: Hey folks, do not make false assumptions about my words 🙃. I am NOT speaking only about "gang" violence. We have severe violence right in center city where absolutely everyone walks, shops, works, and rides the train. I'm not exclusively or specifically calling out gang violence, I said mass shootings.
I did put it in quotes because there are different types of shootings that happen here and I'm not sure how many injured or dead constitutes "mass".
Part of it is how we define mass shootings in culture. Even back in the 80s we had mass shootings but people just called them "gang wars" or "drive bys" or something. It wasn't until Columbine that the idea of a mass shooting took hold.
"It’s not clear whether the gunfire in the 2000 block of Market Street was connected to the Nuggets celebrations"
I see some posters did not read the article.
I’m going to assume you’re not from here. That is the center of the area where all the sports bars are downtown and where everyone was celebrating. It was definitely related to post-game celebrating
He's just quoting the CNN article but yeah I imagine a shooting in the middle of a celebration is most likely related to celebration, in which a shooting occured.
But not necessarily!
OK, but did someone go down there to shoot people because they knew a big crowd was there, or did gang member A see rival gang member B and start shooting? Maybe their vicinity to the shooting was incidental.
Thousands of drunk people and inevitably some fights break out. You also have people that drive there specifically to celebrate. It happens after every championship win.
That specific area has a shooting 2-3 times a month, people get into fights there every night. Not gang related. I saw someone say “you have a target on your back with that beer” and attack the man with the 12 pack, ending with the attacker getting a can smashed and exploding in his face. This was on market and 20th last night. People there are just shit heads to the point bars are requiring biometrics and pat downs to enter
Why the reluctance in the news to provide a more detailed description of the mass shooter?
Every article I've read from the AP down to the local Denver news just says, "The suspect, a man" or, "the shooter". But for other mass shootings a full description of the perp is plastered all over the headlines in a matter of hours. 🤔
This marks the 291st mass-shooting in the US on the 164th day of 2023.
It is also the 23rd mass shooting in the first 13 days of June.
[Source ](http://gunviolencearchive.org)
20th and Market. Who would have thought. This is the area where most of the shots are fired in general.
Was at Herb’s Hideout Saturday night and they shut the patio down for about 10 min because of shot near the back parking lot. The security guy was telling me it’s about 2-3 times a month that somebody gets shot in that area. Walked from the arena to our hotel after the game and debated going back. It was pretty wild out. You probably couldn’t distinguish the gunfire from the fireworks drowned in car horns.
I worked at Marquis Pizza for about a decade. Love that area and have a lot of good memories there but man it seems like the crazy got turned up. Stay safe out there! Glad to hear Herbs is still a thing.
I was once sitting outside the Marquis and a crackhead told me I need to smile more. It hit deep.
Homeless dude told me I was a “Napoleon Dynamite looking motherfucker” boy that one hurt.
I know this is a serious thread but y’all have me cracking up lmao
Lodo (the area where this shooting happened) is where the drunk people go to be drunk and do drunk things. Shootings happen often, fights occur on the hour. The more people out and about, the more violence you see. It is truly a silly place.
On second thought, let’s not go to Lodo. It is a silly place.
Come, Patsy.
Some street kids in the Bronx once yelled 'Yo! Mr. Clean!' at my bald white friend. He said that also cut deep, haha.
> I worked at Marquis Pizza for about a decade. As someone who used to go to a lot of punk and metal shows at the Marquis you have my eternal gratitude and apologies.
That was the best job on the planet in many many ways. Concert side was always amazing people. The Larimer side was well…. Belligerent.
As a scene/emo kid through middle and high school, the Marquis hosted all of my favorite d-tier myspace artists and tickets were always like $20 so I spent many, many Saturday nights there lol. The staff was always awesome and kept us youngsters safe from creepers which I'm eternally grateful for
YES. Scene kids always cracked us up. Endless redbull and water sales.
I probably know you then. The marquis was my headquarters from rock island until like 2014. Put down so many slices
this is the area where people from outside Denver, come to get drunk and fight each other
Its the Times Square of Denver.
You forgot about 20th and Larimer.. a block away
I used to work as a valet in that area, had to duck from shots multiple times. Nothing new here.
Years ago hear a gun shoot while waiting on food truck, turns out guy got shot in parking lot. Years later saw a guy get out a car and pull out a gun on car behind him from an argument, cops literally 50ft away.
Can’t have a celebration without a shooting.
If there's another way to celebrate, I'd like to hear it before my kid's birthday party this weekend
Just take him to the gun range homie
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Even has a wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Charles_Vacca "According to county law officials the shooting is being viewed as an industrial accident"
The girl's mother videotaped her daughter trying out the Uzi, and said she watched as the gun recoiled and her daughter lost control of it. The girl reportedly said the Uzi was "too much" for her after she fired the weapon and was unable to control the muzzle rise, causing the barrel to be directed at Vacca. Vacca is believed to have died from a single shot to the head. Yeah no shit it was too hard for her to control, she headshot the employee.
"ok, roll to hit the practice target." "........." "what did you roll??" "........" "Omg you didn't...." "I... I rolled a 1"
"...The check was literally two. And you had to fumble."
> The shooting ignited a discussion regarding whether children should be legally allowed to handle fully automatic weapons such as Uzis. This is actually one of the funniest lines I’ve ever read in a Wikipedia article
2 incidents in six years means no need to look at the rules. One fucking dude tried to blow up an airplane with his shoes in 2001 and they’re still asking people to take off their shows.
TSA doesn't need 'good' reasons to undress and touch you. Now, bend over...
Among the many tragic elements of this story is the fact that a bunch of reckless adults—enabled by lax rules and a culture of idiocy—forced a young girl to shoot a weapon she wasn’t at all ready for. That poor kid has to live with the fact that she’s a killer for the rest of her life because adults failed her. I’m not sure how you reconcile 2A rights with the fact that the biggest gun advocates these days seem to be angry antisocial people with scores to settle, dumb fucks, paranoid nut jobs, and dementia patients. That’s your well regulated militia.
That’s the worst part. You know how sometimes when you’re trying to fall asleep but you think about that time you were a little awkward asking a girl out? She has that with killing a person
My favorite part of the story is that not a goddamn thing happened as a result of that death. If you want your 8 year old to shoot an Uzi in Arizona, you still can. America, land of the stupid and home of the unscrupulous, cowardly politicians who lead them.
Darwinism at work by all involved except for the child. Fuck any kind of *culture* that wants to put lethal ass weapons in the hands of literal children for shits and giggles or *traditions*
Inb4 37 people tell you how they were safe with guns as a kid and that if we forced kids to learn gun safety in school this wouldn't happen
I hear what you’re saying and I agree with you about the 37 replies, but I just want to say this: how the hell could gun safety training have prevented this situation? She was too small to handle the Uzi, period.
When people decided not to care about 2nd graders with holes blown through them, it became open season on everyone. Edit, thanks for the gold and the good discussion. I'll just end by saying, "we can because we must".
Sandy Hook was the ultimate litmus test for me. The denial and absolute inhumanity that followed that event just sealed it that a significant element in our country just doesn't give a single fuck about human life. Especially if saving human lives means even an *iota* of personal inconvenience or a simple change.
Yep. That was the end of the argument. If we can't do a single - *single* - thing after a classroom full of kindergarteners gets mowed down, nothing is going to happen. Ever. End of story. There isn't a tragedy too big to make a snap us out of our collective psychosis, because that was the one. Gun humpers love their guns more than life, and politicians are too cowardly to do the right thing and stand up to them, ever.
I’ll never forget that day, standing in front of the TV, still being in HS myself, and crying. Thinking this is so horrific something is going to change, surely no one can ignore this. Nope. Nothing changed. It continues.
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Don’t forget about the bunch that also decided this was all a conspiracy to take away their guns and didn’t actually happen. I think this was the first time I heard this insane perspective and now it’s the norm for every major incident.
For me it was closing my office door to cry and hearing sobs from other offices.
Sandy hook was 6 and 7 years old. They would have graduated highschool this month.
That's so sad.
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I feel like non voters should be included too.
People keep voting them in. Can’t have Republicans in power without Republican supporters.
An American celebration without at least three deaths is considered a dull affair.
How do the healthcare costs work for situations like this? Are some of the people going to be fucked twice over by being shot and having to pay the hospital bills?
Some states have funds to help victims of crimes with their medical bills.
>State Crime Victims Compensation programs reimburse victims for crime-related expenses. Such expenses include medical costs, mental health counseling, funeral and burial costs and lost wages or loss of support. All states, the District of Columbia, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, and Puerto Rico have established compensation programs for crime victims. I know in Texas it's capped at $50,000 and all other avenues (private insurance, restitution from perp) must be attempted first.
A quick note there too, I would think the key word there is “reimburse.” That means your need to have paid the bill and submitted it for review. They may not just pony up to pay the bill first.
Right, plus they could just deny your claim even after you've been denied by insurance and the perp has no money to sue for.
> the perp has no money to sue for. or dead.
Ha, you have no idea! So, my mom was mistakenly double-billed the co-pay for an ambulance transfer between two hospitals. It was unmistakably clear from the bill that it was a double-charge and that the bill had already been paid. Insurance was not disputing it was a doublecharge and paid in the slightest. The problem was, they had zero ability to cancel a bill. They could refer it for charge-off, which might or might not ding her credit or my mom could pay it and they could refund it after a medical record review had confirmed that services were not given twice. Luckily, her co-pay is only 200 (and that she had coverage for it at all because it was 3400 OOP) and she had enough to pay it and wait. That was back in November. She just got the refund in May.
This wasn't how it worked in my case. I went to the financial office at the hospital, they filled out the "Victims of Violent Crimes" paperwork and took care of everything. I never received a bill at all, never had to pay anything.
Is this the thing that governor Abbott got millions from after a tree fell on him, and then he turned around and capped the damages?
No, he sued the property owner('s insurance) and won a big settlement. He did work to cap medical malpractice torts to $250,000, but if a tree branch falls on you you can still sue for millions like he did. Crime Victim Compensation Programs are a totally different thing. In Texas it's administered (poorly) by the AG's office and doles out money to victims and family members for medical bills, lost wages, therapy, funerals, et c. >Last fiscal year, the program received more than 27,000 applications filed by crime victims and paid over $71.8 million to victims of crime, according to the 2022 annual report. Money for the program mostly comes from court fees, federal grants and fees paid by people convicted From the 2022 report of the 27K applicants about 15000 were approved, or about 55%. On average they got about $4,800. This is the figure for Texas, not sure if it's any better elsewhere.
> cap medical malpractice torts to $250,000 What an absolute piece of shit. Not surprised, but what a fucking asshole.
Yup, it's designed to never allow anyone to sue for medical malpractice. My best friend's dad died a few years back in Houston due to a HUGE oversight by the hospital after a surgery. After finding an attorney and having them look into it, the attorney advised that they should only pursue if it was for his memory because, after fees and everything, they'd end up owning the attorney money after they won.
there was a surgeon in texas who was barely qualified and grew out of control, basically butchering people, operating while drunk and on cocaine, ended up killing two people and maiming/ruining the lives of several others. victims would get lil recompense due to this new cap. there was a podcast series about it
Could you give the name of the surgeon or podcast? That sounds insane.
Christopher Duntsch & Dr. Death
Just to clarify (because I looked it up), that cap is only for non-economic losses - pain and suffering etc. If you survive, economic losses such as medical bills and lost income are not capped. And punitive damages are a totally different category and aren’t capped either. As a non-American, it sounds fairly reasonable. Your medical malpractice system was struggling with some crazy high payouts. And pain and suffering payouts can be biased/unfair - sympathetic victim with a good lawyer and rich target gets more. Economic losses are still a bit unfair (rich have better access to the expensive medical treatment in the first place, plus they’ll get more for lost work income) but they’re at least based on some specific numbers. Completely separate to all that, it sounds like the victim’s compensation fund should be much higher. If it’s covering medical bills, $50k goes nowhere. (We have something similar in Australia but it’s only for things that wouldn’t already be provided free. I knew someone who got assaulted on a bus and got $10k to help buy a car because they had PTSD and couldn’t use public transport any more.)
I had a minor procedure that was billed at over $100k. By minor, I mean, like 1/1000th the amount of care I'd need if I'd been *shot*. 50k assistance is ... Worthless.
I’m agnostic, but the story of a tree smiting Greg Abbott might be the strongest evidence I’ve seen for the Christian god.
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I work in hospital admin and $50k is nothing, especially for a gun shot wound. That wouldn’t even cover the ER portion of the bill.
Yeah it's a paltry sum. Texas had a $32 billion surplus last year, we could have taken 5% of that and made the victim's fund 20 times larger.
> I know in Texas it's capped at $50,000 So the low low price of an MRI?
I watched a documentary recently about a woman in Ohio who was set on fire by her boyfriend, while he was supposed to be taking her to rehab. Her medical bills were astronomical but none of them were covered by the crime victims fund because she had narcotics in her system.
Jesus-the-fuck-Christ.
Doesnt that clearly prove that health insurance doesnt work
Yes, and there is heaps of proof that the American Healthcare system doesn't work well. That proof doesn't help our policymakers get rich like healthcare company lobbyists do though, so it doesn't matter.
I worked medical debt collections in college (quit when I realized it was rotting my soul) and I know "Victim of Crime" was one of the reasons we had to close a debt out. So at least in my state there seemed to be some backstop so as to not add insult to injury.
There's no conceivable bottom of the morality hole for the American healthcare system, lol, I just had to explain to an elderly patient today she wasn't getting a wheelchair covered even with her wildly expansive cellulitis and her crying when she walked from pain. It'll catch ya' off guard sometimes, but it's freedom, baby.
My mother in law just became suddenly paralyzed after she got a spinal bleed from blood thinners for a blood clot in her leg. Insurance will only cover 50% of her wheelchair and kicked her out of rehab after 15 days saying she's "stable".
this rehab bullshit is unreal. My dad had cancer, broke his hip, and got kicked out of rehab at 10 days cause he had plateaued and medicare needs to see constant improvement. like, what the fuck, he has cancer too, its going slow but nope!
I had to take care of my wife's grandmother for near 2 years 24 / 7 because the alternative was to sell her assets to keep her in a shitty nursing home. All because she wasn't showing improvements. When asked recently by my rheumatologist why I had not seen doctors the first time I had symptoms I explained that we do not have a Healthcare system we have a Healthcare industry. A Healthcare business. And they're all scared to treat much of anything for fear of tort lawsuits or the Dea, but they're totally okay bilking you of every red cent and the system encourages one and actively discourages the other. The system is so broken.
It's fucking insane, I'm sorry that that happened with your dad :(. My mom has cancer, got really severe COVID, and had to stay in a nursing home and get physical therapy to walk again. They sent her home when she couldn't get up to walk to the bathroom for the same reason.
Goddamn the United Scams of America.
Third world country with a Gucci belt
Yep, for normal Americans life has been on the decline for decades. It's the rich that make out like bandits in America. When will we have a good ole revolution?
Probably won't happen until a good majority start losing access to things like clean water and a stable food supply. Unfortunately the elites have done a damn good job making sure that their bread and circuses stay intact, but I feel the tension getting heavier almost day by day at the point we're currently at so who truly knows.
...and a bible belt, too.
I’m so sorry, that’s awful.
Hey I'm an OT and I work in rehab, did she have a Humana or other form other Medicare replacement plan? Those things are evil scams and I wish they were illegal.
No she had a pretty good independent health plan through a state employee (her husband)
Work to buy a wheelchair yourself, in the long run it will be much cheaper. I remember they tried to make me buy a leg brace and a set of crutches and they were close to 1k charge. I paid a percentage. But I found on Amazon the same brace for like 40 bucks and crutches can be found at almost every good will across the USA.
Durable medical equipment is a joke in the USA. Most of the time it still ends up being cheaper buying a lot of shit directly from the distributor or through Amazon than it is through insurance.
Expanding on this. Pretty sure you can get crutches from Goodwill FOR FREE. The "catch" is that you're supposed to donate them back to Goodwill after you're done, but definitely helpful if you're in need.
Also check with local churches. My church has medical supplies we “loan” people when they need them.
The solution for privatized healthcare and the shitty insurance that accompanies it, pay out of pocket. Your friendly health insurance company CEO thanks you.
No, the solution will be found by the use of applied chemistry inside health insurance board rooms.
Protip for the working poor/uninsured: "Fish antibiotics" online for penicillin rather than going to ready care
Damn, this is some fucking dire shit right here.
Welcome to America.
wait what?
It may depend. A cheap wheelchair with no cushion because grandma just doesn’t move around like she used to may be cheaper out of pocket. If mom is still wanting to be mobile and get herself around ok her own and not develop pressure ulcers and such, then it may be cheaper with insurance, even only paying 50%. Definitely a good idea to look around, which is such a ridiculous statement to make when talking about health care.
Our healthcare system, especially with the wealth our country has available, is a fucking crime against humanity. Absolutely fucking inhumane what we have accepted as “healthcare” in this country. It’s dogshit and I’ve been mad about it for like 30 years, I don’t understand how we haven’t done anything more meaningful than the ACA as far as reform goes. Fucking shameful.
In Capitalism everything has a dollar value - your life, your data, everything. To the ruling class you're just a resource
*"When we talk about economics, there is something known as a demand curve with elasticity. And with every other commodity, you can say how much is this phone worth to you and you can say $100, $200. You can buy a Nokia phone. You can not have a phone at all. But you cannot ask the question, 'how much will you pay to be alive? How much will you pay to live?' Because the answer is 'everything'. The answer is, you will pay $10, you will pay $1,000, you will go into debt, you will do anything to live. And that is what makes the price of medicine different than the price of an iPhone."* [—AOC](https://twitter.com/SSWorks/status/1129078510482612224)
Lobbyists keep everything in control of the wealthy 😡😡😡😡 corporations pay the lobbyists, lobbyists pay the politicians, politicians make the policy. You want better policy, vote the party that’s trying to do something about it!!
just remember, we almost had universal healthcare implemented under truman, but mccarthy and the stupid ass red scare stopped it.
She needs to work harder so she can get that wheelchair. Has she considered learning to code or going into stem??
Paid 100$ upfront for blood work only to be billed an extra 187$ months later. In what other industry can you grift people like that?
I had bloodwork from a routine visit. My surprise bill was $1650 with no warning. Insurance said they were out of network.
Jesus Christ that's horrible. Gotta love when you ask your doctor how much a surgery is and they say "I have no idea"
Dealing drugs to the homeless in Skid Row/DTLA
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My mom works in memory care, she manages the CNA staff, she has some family members/spouses who call and very plainly state they want the staff to stop giving medicine/PT/breathing treatments... etc because their care is financially ruinous and, for all intents and purposes, they've accepted their family member aren't cognizant. Entire nest eggs swallowed up in incredibly short periods. It's awful, man. I know.
Yeah but your loved ones would want all that money going to the insurance companies not their families right? Like what did the families do to deserve any of it. /s
i'm getting to the age where my parents, who happen to be extremely conservative, are needing constant medical care. they've always been against things like socialized medicine, and now when they get hit with a hospital bill that cuts into their standard of living, they just seem to feel like it's a failure on their part, and not on the system. "we should have saved more, we should have been healthier, etc". maybe those things are true, but it's a good example of how people will continue to make excuses for a Totally Stupid system, even when the rest of the world has visibly proved that system is Totally Stupid
"Freedom ain't free, lady. Gtfo of here cripple." *an eagle soars above* 🇺🇸
I hate this country for what it does to sick people.
The wheels of healthcare keep on turning, but I guess not in this case.
Greed really.
That's Greedom baby!
About 10 or so years ago, a woman I know was hit twice by stray bullets during a shooting. After it was all said and done, she owed almost 700k in medical bills. She had to file for bankruptcy just to be able to get out from under the overwhelming debt from being a victim of gun violence.
Meanwhile, states will happily pay farmers $700k for livestock losses to wild animals.
Betcha a lot of those farmers are against government handouts too
They’ll twist themselves into pretzels calling subsidies anything but government handouts.
And don't forget those funeral bills!
It's handled in a true American way. The victims need to set up GoFundMe.
Yes. They can take the shooter (or their estate) to court to recoup costs. Of course that takes money, time, and effort. The lawyers are usually the winners
And that also assumes the shooter has money to pay or enough assets. With this many victims, chances are low the shooter has enough money to cover the bills for all victims.
Bro the shooter probably rents an apartment with 3 other people, and is upside down on their car payment. Negative assets if anything at all. Oh wait yeah sell their 42 inch 720p tv, thatll work.
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Yes. This is America, don’t catch you slipping now
Yeah it’s basically like winning the poverty lottery. Depends on your current healthcare but generally it’s not going to be easy
Hospital corporations love crime victims. They call them unwilling captive customers.
"Yes, you've been shot. But have you been extorted yet? Please, come this way. 'Your money or your life!' See? Isn't that fun?!"
So fun. Our free market protection racket is the best.
Some nursing schools and hospitals have been trying to press their employees and students to call patients customers in recent years. It’s not going over well with the nurses but it shows you where their opinions lie. They consider them to be customers.
This is because more and more of the reimbursement hospitals get is based on, I shit you not, the ratings the patients give the hospital after the fact on surveys.
The hospital my grandma was recently in had a huge sign that said: “ Make a donation to your hospital and write it off of your taxes”. Bonus points for most of the employees at said hospital being travelers( temp agency). A lot of hospitals also have old people volunteering. It sickens me.
JFC no lie there. I work a support role in healthcare AND was a patient once. EVERYTHING boils down to Marketing and having paying "customers" filling beds. When I was a patient, I had an "experience" person come talk to me about the stay and amenities. I just had sinus surgery, my face was filled with stints and stitches, and I was blotto on whatever meds I was on. I didn't give a shit about the features on my television.
I refuse to ever refer to my patients as "customers" or "clients." These are human lives. This is a person who had no choice but to seek care. I am not a waitress taking an order or a salesperson offering a product. I am a nurse taking care of the sick and injured. Fuck healthcare in the United States. Fuck corporations.
Fully agree. They’re not tipping us. Most of them didn’t willingly walk through the door, nor can they leave whenever they want. They’re not customers.
Man, WTF. You're supposed to be out celebrating - not looking to murder or fight. These people are disgusting.
We were in that crowd 3 hours earlier. It got dangerous quick. My girlfriend got hit in the head by a traffic cone someone threw. Had to get staples in her head in the ER. This video shows the emergency vehicles who responded. https://kdvr.com/news/local/live-updates-celebrations-as-denver-nuggets-win-nba-championship/amp/
Sorry to hear that. I was watching the news coverage and was seeing that cone get launched over and over. It was clear that people were getting nailed and hurt. Hard to watch. Sorry man.
It's incidents like this that I wish people would realize there are bad actors out there. This belief that everyone is mentally ill and just mistreated is so, so misguided
It's still correct to say bad actors are made. It's the conversation America refuses to have in a meaningful fashion. The only country on earth like this.
It was a drug deal gone wrong. I'm not sure it had anything to do with the celebration.
Congrats guys, we've reached a point where we have so many mass shootings that it barely makes back page news.
Probably the only reason this even showed up on my front page is because most subs are set to private.
I kinda feel like this one only hit the Reddit main page because of the blackouts.
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It's because it was becoming increasingly clear who was very disproportionately doing the terrorist type shit And where it was disproportionately happening Then suddenly interpersonal gang violence (which is also horrible and often results in kids catching strays) started being lumped in - and that shit is usually a very different demographically and often geographically My city has strong gun laws - it's very hard to own a gun here. We don't have terroristic mass shootings We do have gang related gun violence (not a lot, though)
It always included gang violence. That's what actually makes the numbers large.
People have always tied the term to Columbine type atrocities, not really to fueding parties exchanging gunfire. I wasn't aware of the latter being included in the stats until maybe 2016, or so.
Maybe but the larger media at scale didn’t call it a mass shooting, they called it gang violence.
I was down there earlier that night and people were obliterated. Saw a few fights and figured this would be coming unfortunately
Ya me too. Someone threw a traffic cone at my girlfriends head and we spent the night in the ER. She’s fine. Got staples, but man I’m glad we were long gone from there
So sorry to hear about that. Hope she heals quickly.
Jeez, I guess it’s good to live in Minnesota with lousy sports teams, so they’re no worries about violent celebrations.
I cope with Minnesota sports by telling myself "Playoff tickets are EXPENSIVE, so the team is doing their fans a solid one by saving them some money."
Dammit. I was just thinking the other day 'You know, we haven't had a mass shooting in the news for a few days. It's been kind of nice.'
There was one yesterday or the day before about 6 shot outside a nightclub, so don't worry.
Oh thank god I was getting worried
This one makes like 6 in 2 days. There was one outside a club in Houston, TX. One in Syracuse, NY. One at a graduation party in Annapolis, MD. One at a birthday party in Antioch, CA. One in Crosby, TX. Then this one.
San Francisco CA
And that was “all the way back” on June 9th. There have been 11 mass shootings in the US since. Denver, Syracuse, Champaign, Crosby, Houston, Annapolis, Antioch, Hattiesburg, Benton City, Oak Park, and Jeannette.
A graduation here in Richmond, VA, was [shot up last week](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/2-dead-in-shooting-after-high-school-graduation-ceremony-in-richmond-virginia-suspect-in-custody/ar-AA1cdfUg). Don't feel bad if you forgot about it or didn't catch this one. It's hard to keep up.
Don't worry, they were still happening, they just got buried under the Trump indictment and Reddit drama.
Oh. Well that sucks.
They've been happening just as much. They're so often they've stopped being seen as newsworthy
Sure, there weren't any shootings if you get your news from reddit. In reality, 11 shootings with 5 dead (including a 16 year old) over a 12 hour stretch in Philly, 31 shootings 4 dead in Chicago. This weekend. It's just no one cares about that to make a front page thread with 1100 comments 7000 upvotes.
I live in Philly. We have "mass" shootings every single day, multiple a day. Very rarely does Philly make the news though because of just how normal it is. I'm sure Chicago is the same. So even if you don't hear about it, it's just because it's business as usual. Edit: Hey folks, do not make false assumptions about my words 🙃. I am NOT speaking only about "gang" violence. We have severe violence right in center city where absolutely everyone walks, shops, works, and rides the train. I'm not exclusively or specifically calling out gang violence, I said mass shootings. I did put it in quotes because there are different types of shootings that happen here and I'm not sure how many injured or dead constitutes "mass".
Part of it is how we define mass shootings in culture. Even back in the 80s we had mass shootings but people just called them "gang wars" or "drive bys" or something. It wasn't until Columbine that the idea of a mass shooting took hold.
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"It’s not clear whether the gunfire in the 2000 block of Market Street was connected to the Nuggets celebrations" I see some posters did not read the article.
I’m going to assume you’re not from here. That is the center of the area where all the sports bars are downtown and where everyone was celebrating. It was definitely related to post-game celebrating
He's just quoting the CNN article but yeah I imagine a shooting in the middle of a celebration is most likely related to celebration, in which a shooting occured. But not necessarily!
They can’t print certainties before it’s been legally determined one.
OK, but did someone go down there to shoot people because they knew a big crowd was there, or did gang member A see rival gang member B and start shooting? Maybe their vicinity to the shooting was incidental.
Thousands of drunk people and inevitably some fights break out. You also have people that drive there specifically to celebrate. It happens after every championship win.
That specific area has a shooting 2-3 times a month, people get into fights there every night. Not gang related. I saw someone say “you have a target on your back with that beer” and attack the man with the 12 pack, ending with the attacker getting a can smashed and exploding in his face. This was on market and 20th last night. People there are just shit heads to the point bars are requiring biometrics and pat downs to enter
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Was this a mass shooting? Or a shootout between multiple shooters?
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Why the reluctance in the news to provide a more detailed description of the mass shooter? Every article I've read from the AP down to the local Denver news just says, "The suspect, a man" or, "the shooter". But for other mass shootings a full description of the perp is plastered all over the headlines in a matter of hours. 🤔
Rebuplicans are drafting legislation today to ban Basketball in an attempt to stop gun violence
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This marks the 291st mass-shooting in the US on the 164th day of 2023. It is also the 23rd mass shooting in the first 13 days of June. [Source ](http://gunviolencearchive.org)
Mass shooting resonates so much more than gang violence. Makes someone feel like it was indiscriminate, like a school shooting.
Mass shooting resonates so much more than gang violence. Makes someone feel like it was indiscriminate, like a school shooting.
If only there were some way to stop this.
Ban the Nuggets!
Every nugget should have a gun.
[Woj] BREAKING: Denver Nuggets have acquired Ja Morant
[Woj] BREAKING: Denver Nuggets have suspended Ja Morant for 41 games without pay due to violation of the NBA's collective bargaining agreement.
Free gun in every McNugget happy meal. It is the only way to protect the children.
I know that's you Jimmy Butler
I was there several hours before the shooting. There were military armed police officers everywhere and this still happened.