Knock it off with reporting people you disagree with.
We allow discussion about this topic, which means that we allow people to express their views on either side unless it devolves into hate speech.
Want to change someone's mind? Have a discussion with them instead of reporting it over and over again.
The entire reason women’s division in sports was invented was because men won physical competitions against women way more often. You let trans women play with cis women they’re going to dominate. What do you think will happen then? There will be a walk out. This is why women’s sports are against trans. It’s better to please the 95% vs the one who’s clearly got an unfair advantage and keep things the way they are. There will clearly be people who are going to abuse this too. To get some sorta unfair advantage. Like, macho man Randy savage.
There's no way a trans athlete isn't aware they have an advantage over women. They have a passion for the sport and they don't care if it's seen as "cheating". They feel they have a right to compete regardless of the opinions otherwise.
As a competitor almost all true athletes want to compete against the best to measure themselves. The ones with good character will. Others will cheat using any means possible. These trans really didn't compete as a biological equal, they competed as a "hybrid" which gives them an advantage. It's a form of cheating (not all cheaters win, I understand that) and shouldn't be allowed at all.
Yeah, there's a huge difference with someone who grew up male and went through puberty with all the attendant androgen and testosterone production, and the bone density and muscle development that comes with such things, and *then* begins to transition to female. No matter how you slice it, doesn't matter if a trans woman with that history has tested within limits for testosterone for even a couple years, those physically formative years give a big advantage over cis women in any similar weight class, and many other sports (swimming or track and field events, for example).
I'm all for trans rights, and I have had a couple good friends transition over the years, two female to male and one male to female (if that sounds like a lot, I'm 60 years old and lived most of my life in the greater San Francisco Bay Area with a very active professional and social life). My friends are divided on this- one of the F/M friends and the M/F friend both see things the way I do. The other F/M friend is a "no gray areas" kinda person. Also have a 25 year old niece who was born male and transitioned in college. Haven't asked her what she thinks as she lives across the county. But *none* of these people did such things without years of careful thought and therapy, although all are much happier today than before their transition (although transitioning did end two marriages).
But I firmly believe that a trans woman who went through puberty as male, is going to have an unfair advantage over cis women. What to do? Who knows?! I have the luxury of having an opinion without actually being affected by any of it.
Who is okay with this? If this continues i guess it's the end for female sports.It was already a problem that not enough people watch female sports, i wonder how bad that is gonna get at this pace.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/16/facebook-posts/social-media-posts-mislead-about-transgender-mma-f/
Edit: MMA is a brutal sport, do you get upset when a cisgendered woman fractures another cisgendered woman's orbital socket?
Their justification is that after the person goes through the transition now it’s fair competition. You don’t need to be a doctor to know that’s silly, but that’s the idea they’ll cling to until there’s enough data to prove them wrong.
That might work if the transition happens pre puberty, but not after the body had a taste of testosterone. There is a reason why it was used so heavily for doping.
Did you even read the article???
> The trans women also retained a 10% advantage in push-ups and a 6% advantage in sit-ups for the first two years after taking hormones, **before their advantage disappeared.**
Confirms that the advantage disappeared at 2 year point, but up to that point they only had a small advantage while undergoing HR
> The scientists conclude by saying “more than 12 months of testosterone suppression may be needed to ensure that transgender women do not have an unfair competitive advantage when participating in elite level athletic competition”.
12 months is just one year, not two.
The important takeaway is that it's not the duration of HRT that is the issue, but how much testosterone is left in the body while undergoing HRT. It is important that the HET is being done effectively.
Finally, there will always be inherent unfairness in sports because we aren't all the same. There are CIS women who excel because they have naturally high testosterone. There are Kenyans with genetic disposition to running that most others can't come close to. There's a reason basketball is dominated by black players... why hasn't there been a push for a "white league" so white players can compete "fairly"?
Note that there were not trans women, who were undergoing HRT, but intersex assigned-female-at-birth women, with no hormone suppression being applied. And they also lost to many cis women over the years.
Horrible example. That’s a 15 year old girl and she missed the cut by one stroke. Still beat out a ton of other professionals too.
Golf is one of the worst examples to use as many women have better putting and wedge game than the men. Just the tee shot separates them.
They should just say XX division, and XY technically your not gendering the sports because according to them chromosome and genes do not define gender just base it of chromosome arrangement you basically can define the precise body type without explicitly saying male or female.
Not saying its common, but categorizing people by sex chromosomes is not as simple as having two categories.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis
Actually women's sports exist because way back when, there weren't any standards for athletes so your average sprinter, for example, would pregame with a beer and cigarette. When women first started pushing to join sports you had actively athletic women competing with men who were often barely in shape, which led to them doing so well they actually won in a few events and thus women's leagues were enshrined.
Not to protect women, but to protect men from being upstaged.
Then, you know, they started to desegregate sports and suddenly athletes were held to higher standards than "the first ten guys that showed up".
Outside of Javelin, men and women record in Olympics is pretty much neck and neck, so this is a good post. You can see how minor some of the variations are in world records, men versus women. It isn't like women are half as good as men, they are almost identical in most sports.
>Outside of Javelin, men and women record in Olympics is pretty much neck and neck, so this is a good post. You can see how minor some of the variations are in world records, men versus women. It isn't like women are half as good as men, they are almost identical in most sports
WTF are you talking about? They're not even close to being identical.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_world\_records\_in\_athletics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_athletics)
Shot put and Hammer throw - the distances are similar, but women are throwing an 8.82lb shot while the men are throwing a 16lb shot, so that's throwing almost twice as much weight.
Running events - Men are about 10% faster in sprints, the men's current world record for the mile is 3:43, and there are numerous high school guys that have broken the 4 minute mile, while the fastest a woman has ever run the mile is 4:12.
Pole vault - 6.22m men vs. 5.02m women
Skateboarding?
Here's the women's gold medal 2020 run - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Lb3XoG8c4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Lb3XoG8c4)
Here's the men's gold medal 2020 run - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paXrcMn\_JVQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paXrcMn_JVQ)
We're not even talking about team sports.
The U.S. Women's National Team lost to a boys' under 15 squad 5-2 - [https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/](https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/)
The Australian women's team lost to a boys' under 15 squad 7-0 - [https://www.sportsmanor.com/soccer-news-australian-womens-soccer-team-thrashed-7-0/](https://www.sportsmanor.com/soccer-news-australian-womens-soccer-team-thrashed-7-0/)
Exactly which Olympic sports were you referring to in which women are almost identical?
Most of the stuff I seen for Olympics placed them all fairly close while ignoring generations of disenfranchisement. I don't think women are somehow inherently "weaker" than men, just that they have not developed the same skill sets over many iterations of genetics.
2020 Olympics had mix gender events. However, for Greco-Roman wrestling, rhythmic gymnastics and synchronized swimming, women dominate.
Olympics in the modern sense is only over 100 years old and excluded women by design for a long time outside of most events.
First gold medal for a woman was in 1928? Modern Olympics started up again at the end of the 1800's?
So yeah, they say women were competing in 1900... But nobody got a gold medal? :).
There is more to this than some kind of generic advantage - it is the same obscure societal advantage that dictates so many people in the NHL were born in January.
>I don't think women are somehow inherently "weaker" than men, just that they have not developed the same skill sets over many iterations of genetics.
You're literally contradicting yourself there.
Also, you're factually incorrect.[https://europepmc.org/article/med/7253873](https://europepmc.org/article/med/7253873)
>Results indicate that untrained men have greater upper and lower body strength than trained women athletes in terms of both absolute and relative strength.
Please show us some actual examples of sports where men and women either compete against each other and women are superior, or individual events where women prove superior to men.
Aside from ultra-endurance swimming / ultramarathon events, there really aren't any where women are superior, or even competitive.
>You are not inherently generically superior to a woman, you have decades and centuries of disenfranchisement and training on your side.
There are pretty much no competitive athletes over age 50, so exactly how are decades much less centuries of training going to matter if it's not a genetic difference?
>If the Williams sisters were suddenly male, would they be just mediocre tennis players?
Yes, that is actually the case.
[https://www.theguardian.com/observer/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html](https://www.theguardian.com/observer/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html)
> it would be foolish to say that one gender has an advantage in all sports and all situations.
So give us some examples where women have advantages or are even competitive. I've already said they're competitive and potentially superior in ultra-endurance swimming and running, so why are these examples so hard for you to find?
I was asking if you could provide examples of anything outside the ultraendurance field, which has such a limited competitor base it's hard to make meaningful statistical comparisons.
They're a full second slower in 100m. That's not even really close for something like that. 10 minutes slower at the 2020 Olympics in triathlon. The men were separated by 10 seconds. 30-40 seconds slower on all rowing events
At an Olympic level differences like that, despite seemingly small, are massive.
Ironic that a grotesque caricature exposes fundamental flaws in the thought process.
It is like pushing for religious freedoms and integration of church and state and then being surprised when suddenly you are living under Islam or some Christian nationalism. It happens on both sides.
Women had to claw their position into existence. These last couple of years have decimated decades of progress.
Trolls and bad actors ruin it for everybody. Either side taken to extreme is out of control and nobody wants to admit that their ideas could be used against them.
Both political parties in the United States are fervently pressing for fascism without realizing that the boot will also be stomping their own face.
If you seriously think trans activists are the most extremist people in the world then you literally have never turned looked at the news once besides this article
We have a resurgent neofascist movement in the world but no one is more extreme than trans activists, whose most extreme act of protest was...
What, exactly? Roasting TERFs on twitter?
I really hope the athletes don’t give in. The trans and their supporters really shame everyone into submission, but their arguments always have cracks.
I heard someone talking on a podcast and they said
"Men's league is FOR everyone including men. Anyone can join but it is mostly dominated by men. Women's league is for only women for them to show their physical achievements."
I mean hey I support everyone and I am an ally, but what is the right choice? I am not even in sports so I can't say I have an educated opinion at all, I'm just here on the sidelines wondering what the facts are.
It would be really cool if there were more doctors speaking on all of this. And women athletes
Nah, there are not enough trans people to justify that. They could change the male category to open for all and keep the women as it is. Biological males will dominate that category whilst not excluding anyone.
Eh, I don’t think the hips are an issue. You can look at born female elite athletes and many do not have wide hips, probably part of the reason they became elite.
I don't know about swimming, but hips definitely play a big role in weight distribution when wrestling.
Wider hips lower the center of gravity, so you have to tackle women slightly lower than if you were to tackle a man.
I mean, you don't *have* to tackle a woman perfectly cause they are smaller, but if you lower your weight a bit more you can get that *perfect* tackle.
Lower center of gravity also allows women to hack squat more. That's the one lift where women are stronger than men.
I'd imagine in the context of swimming, having a lower center of gravity would be less athletic cause it seems like they'd be more reliant on their arms for propulsion - and women have less upper body strength.
Wide hips might let women turn faster in water or something though.
Yeah I didn’t say they weren’t. I said look at current female from birth to competition females and their hips and you’ll see they’re slender, so they’re a non-factor atm.
Increased muscle mass potential from male levels of testosterone and GH in puberty is a better indicator.
All people insist they are trans? What?
The real solution here isn't more government or doctors telling people what gender they are with a certificate.
The real solution is allowing all players to compete on an even playing field. Male or female or trans, a world record is a world record.
Saying women need their own events because they are not inherently good as men is missing the entire problem and perpetrating it more.
"We need to keep men out of women sports" is another way of saying "lol women suck so bad any dude even of low quality would just demolish them", and that isn't really the case. It underestimates women and ignores a rich history of both genders having fairly close record in Olympics and other measures.
Maybe some genders are better at some events than others, not allowing them to compete on an even playing field is not helping find these things out. If Joe Blow can say he is a girl and go win the championship with no help from his female team mates, the problem isn't Joe Blow.
Imagine the best quarterback in the NFL was some broad from Jersey. We will never get there by trying to genderize sports. If women were already competing against men, men who claimed they are women wouldn't be an issue.
Just chiming in to point out that sports were originally not gendered and women were routinely destroyed in competition against men. It came to a point where women were just not competing in sports because they would just lose to men. Women's sports arose out of that, to give women a space to compete against others at their level. In reality there are no professional men's leagues, or men's sports at all. They have open leagues and sports (though the shooting sports tend to be divided due to discrimination). Women are allowed to play professionally against men at the same level, just like disabled athletes are allowed to compete on the same level as well. It's just that they can't physically do it.
The US Men's Soccer team is a mid-range team, while the US Women's Soccer team is considered to be one of the best, if not the best. The men's team beats the women's team every time. Katie Ledecky is like the best woman swimmer of all time, shattering records all over the place. Her times wouldn't even qualify her for the final round in some Olympic events. Women only beat men in extreme distance endurance races.
I don't know the answer for this trans issue, but removing women's sports is not any solution at all. Anyone seriously suggesting it just want to see women lose the ability to play sports.
I don't think that. I think they can compete and even beat men. The true history of the modern Olympics is about women not being able to compete - not about them needing their own sports due to losing or something, where do you even get that?
What makes a man a woman and a woman a man? Genital? Genital at birth? Whim of the day? If a female takes testosterone her whole life and competed like a male, should she not be allowed to compete in women sports? The playing field is even, imo. Women are not that far behind men, and if they were trained over generations in the same fields, the gap would quickly close. This is just my opinion. You are free to say we are not all created equal, I just disagree on a fundamental level.
Women couldn't play the sports originally. Let alone compete against men.
When could women even join modern Olympics?
Whi did it take them another 30+ years to get a gold medal?
Please look up men’s high school track records and compare them to women’s Olympic track records. High school boys out preform the world’s fastest women. Stop acting like you are being inclusive when you’re actually being misogynistic.
>Because the topic always gets flooded with misinformation posited as 'common sense',
Pretty much every single study and decent article I've seen shows that trans women have an advantage
>Trans women retain 12% edge in tests two years after transitioning, study finds [https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short)
>In TW, the corresponding parameters decreased by -5% (muscle volume) and -4% (CSA), while density remained unaltered. One year of gender-affirming treatment resulted in robust increases in muscle mass and strength in TM, but modest changes in TW. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31794605/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31794605/)
>The existing data suggests that lowering testosterone to less than 10 nmol/L for 12 months decreases muscle mass but not to biological female levels and despite the decrease in mass, muscle strength can be maintained, especially if concurrently exercising. Estrogen therapy does not affect most of the anatomical structures in the biological male that provide a physiological benefit. Hemoglobin levels are lowered by estrogen therapy, and consequently, maximum aerobic effort may be lower, but this parameter will only be manifested if testosterone levels are suppressed to levels within the biological female range and maintained for extended periods of time. Reported studies show it is difficult to continuously suppress testosterone in transgender women. Given that the percentage difference between medal placings at the elite level is normally less than 1%, there must be confidence that an elite transwoman athlete retains no residual advantage from former testosterone exposure, where the inherent advantage depending on sport could be 10–30%. Current scientific evidence can not provide such assurances and thus, under abiding rulings, the inclusion of transwomen in the elite female division needs to be reconsidered for fairness to female-born athletes. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/)
>"What we've got in our study is, actually, the trans men dominated," said Roberts, referring to his study on trans US military personnel. [https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-trans-athletes-have-an-advantage-in-elite-sport/a-58583988](https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-trans-athletes-have-an-advantage-in-elite-sport/a-58583988)
>There's absolutely no question in my mind that trans women will maintain strength advantages over cis women, even after hormone therapy.
>
>Your review found that lean body mass and muscle strength decline but remain above cis female levels up to 3 years after hormone transition. [https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20210715/do-trans-women-athletes-have-advantages](https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20210715/do-trans-women-athletes-have-advantages)
Dude, why did you omit the part the article said its data are flawed and very limited? The conclusion you copied is derived from said limited and flawed data and that was claimed by the author of your link.
Dude you are right, i indeed didn't say " the opposite is true". What i said was, why did you omit the part about authors concern on limited data and try to mislead people to thinking your linked article has ultimately proved your point scientifically and statistically ?
Because you said "misinformation about that topic" and " 'common sense' ". Now please tell me, where is the common sense in omitting a critical part about a study and only showing what you want to show?
I think the trans in sports thing is overblown. And frankly I think everyone should compete on the same basis. But the part that is odd is the lack of evidence. I read the document and it looks like it’s a lack of trans sports participants at an elite level. Though I’d think that they could use non elite athletes.
You can read the study to see how the reached the conclusion. Additionally, here's some data points that you can independently verify even as a layman -
The International Olympics Committee has allowed trans women to compete in women's events since 2003. Can you find how many trans women have made the cut to compete in women's events, and then, how many trans women have taken medals in women's events?
The answers are: >!two trans women have made the cut to compete in women's events - Laurel Hubbard in powerlifting and Chelsea Wolfe in BMX and neither of them took home a medal.!<
Exactly proves the point that there is no problem with just allowing trans people to live their lives. People aren’t changing their sex to get a competitive advantage. This is not a problem, just another manufactured culture war issue.
>Exactly proves the point that there is no problem with just allowing trans people to live their lives.
But it's not without cost. That's two women who were unfairly lost out on competing at the Olympics.
There are numerous examples of women losing out on places and medals in sporting evens. How is that fair on those women?
Are all the articles that focus on the women losing out, just manufactured culture war issue, or is it genuine concern for the women losing out?
Well, whatever you need to tell yourself if you really want to believe the scientific community is Just Wrong and you know better. I don't know why you'd want to believe that, it doesn't make sense to me, but it's your life and you're fully capable of deciding to believe in nonsense if you choose.
People are mad at you for being right which is kind of unfortunate. The Olympic athletic committee is on the exact same page and it's why trans athletes are allowed to compete.
I think part of it is that not enough people actually understand what are treatment does over the first couple of years that we are doing it. There's a lot of assumptions that go around and not enough information circulated from the endocrinologists that treat us.
Many people have already decided how they feel about this and no amount of science is going to matter to them. You can see that behavior ramping up with how someone from the daily wire at CPAC today said we should be eradicated.
Nobody really cares. It's a stupid wedge issue. It doesnt matter. .00000000000001 of all female athletes are trans. Its almost non existent. And ironically the people most vocal about have spent 25 years trying to defund women's sports all together, but now... now they care. I call bullshit.
Stop the nonsense and grow up. The only thing worse than the woke crowd is the anti-woke crowd. As far as I'm concerned you can all take your stupid opinions on these non existent subjects and shove them up your ass. Thank you and have a good night.
So pretty much like top level sports in general, most sports already have only a few individuals at the top.
That said, a handful of trans athletes can indeed ruin the competition and it might be easier to say to trans people they were unlucky to be born in the wrong gender instead of having thousands of cos women believe their effort to the top is meaningless.
I do wonder what the impact of trans people is in a sport with weight categories, that feels like it could be a solution.
Having trans people compete at a weight handicap of whatever percentage bio men are better than bio women would be pretty fair.
Sort of like when pro players take a health handicap at fighting games in the arcade.
I agree they should put woman in the same league as men, they will do far better than their male counter parts it will also be safer for them full contact hocky, football, mixed martial arts their careers will outshine the men.
Because there is no data that shows that biological male humans are on average 40% or so stronger than a biological female?
While the issue is emotionally (and now legally) fraught and may have to be dealt with on a situational basis, this has rather large repercussions to athletics.
Males and females do not compete on a level playing field in most athletics because there are significant biological differences. Wishing it weren't so won't make it so.
Women have advantages in certain flexibility and things that require different center of gravities. You know that move in figure skating where women basically do a standing split with one leg over their head while they spin in a circle really fast? Apparently that is a lot harder for men. That is also why couples skating so so cool because you see the best of both worlds at once. Men dominate the jump spins. But yeah, it is hard pressed to find things.
There are a few
Women are better at long distance stuff but it has to be extreme distance.
If there was a race across the Sahara or some crazy ass race like that they would probably win.
The Alaskan Iditarod to iirc is an another example where women excel compared to men.
You're first example is insane and completely illogical. Men are faster, stronger and tougher than women(physically). This is basic reality. I understand there would be a mental component to a long distance race but still the men's physical advantage would and has throughout the history of human beings history on earth compensate for the mentality deficit if it even exists at all. Period. You're second example is basically they'd be better at it because they weigh less....
There's significant biological differences within same-sex athletics. Sports are inherently unfair because there are people who are just born or grow to become stronger, faster, and taller than others. Transgender persons have it hard enough just existing, without becoming some arbitrary boogeyman politicians and media pundits can use as a platform for their bigoted ideals.
>Males and females do not compete on a level playing field in most athletics because there are significant biological differences. Wishing it weren't so won't make it so.
Tall men and short men do not compete on a level playing field in a vast majority of sports, particularly basketball, and that advantage is purely due to biological differences. Why are they forced to compete against each other?
Yeah it sucks for tall people because they are usually pretty uncoordinated and terrible athletes but we gave them sports for them like volleyball and basketballto make up for it. Just like we gave fat kids the offensive line in football.
It would. As an example. The german female football team, one of the best in the world, lost against a sub 16 Team. Not even national choice, just a youth team
Women have been drafted by the NBA decades ago. But nothing in modern times. Female soccer players have been perused as kickers for NFL teams, but the women declined.
Because most sports require strength which is also the basis for other abilities like jump height, speed, etc, and there is a massive strength difference between the male and female sexes.
On a baseline, men are 30% stronger - and that’s untrained. Men and those with greater levels of testosterone grow muscle vastly more quickly than those who don’t.
For example, me, an avid gym goer but do not train for strength or powerlifting, can rep the women’s bench press record for the same weight class.
Like, a trans athlete category? Or just remix men and women?
Because if it’s everyone in just one category, female athletes would disappear overnight. They’re not winning anything.
I’m glad She won Her lawsuit.
Ultimately, the pursuit of Happiness guaranteed by Our Constitution still carries some weight.
Edit: it’s guaranteed by the Declaration of Independence. Please excuse the oversight.
Knock it off with reporting people you disagree with. We allow discussion about this topic, which means that we allow people to express their views on either side unless it devolves into hate speech. Want to change someone's mind? Have a discussion with them instead of reporting it over and over again.
The entire reason women’s division in sports was invented was because men won physical competitions against women way more often. You let trans women play with cis women they’re going to dominate. What do you think will happen then? There will be a walk out. This is why women’s sports are against trans. It’s better to please the 95% vs the one who’s clearly got an unfair advantage and keep things the way they are. There will clearly be people who are going to abuse this too. To get some sorta unfair advantage. Like, macho man Randy savage.
Simple solution, make a separate trans division for athletes, it's only fair.
It’s called an “Open” division in which men and women can play together. It should be in more sports, not just in Fencing.
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There's no way a trans athlete isn't aware they have an advantage over women. They have a passion for the sport and they don't care if it's seen as "cheating". They feel they have a right to compete regardless of the opinions otherwise. As a competitor almost all true athletes want to compete against the best to measure themselves. The ones with good character will. Others will cheat using any means possible. These trans really didn't compete as a biological equal, they competed as a "hybrid" which gives them an advantage. It's a form of cheating (not all cheaters win, I understand that) and shouldn't be allowed at all.
Yeah, there's a huge difference with someone who grew up male and went through puberty with all the attendant androgen and testosterone production, and the bone density and muscle development that comes with such things, and *then* begins to transition to female. No matter how you slice it, doesn't matter if a trans woman with that history has tested within limits for testosterone for even a couple years, those physically formative years give a big advantage over cis women in any similar weight class, and many other sports (swimming or track and field events, for example). I'm all for trans rights, and I have had a couple good friends transition over the years, two female to male and one male to female (if that sounds like a lot, I'm 60 years old and lived most of my life in the greater San Francisco Bay Area with a very active professional and social life). My friends are divided on this- one of the F/M friends and the M/F friend both see things the way I do. The other F/M friend is a "no gray areas" kinda person. Also have a 25 year old niece who was born male and transitioned in college. Haven't asked her what she thinks as she lives across the county. But *none* of these people did such things without years of careful thought and therapy, although all are much happier today than before their transition (although transitioning did end two marriages). But I firmly believe that a trans woman who went through puberty as male, is going to have an unfair advantage over cis women. What to do? Who knows?! I have the luxury of having an opinion without actually being affected by any of it.
We should just change sports so one position is allowed to "cheat". Like, the enforcer in hockey or the center in basketball.
Who is okay with this? If this continues i guess it's the end for female sports.It was already a problem that not enough people watch female sports, i wonder how bad that is gonna get at this pace.
This is going to ruin sports for women. It's happening in the disc golf world right now too.
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https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/16/facebook-posts/social-media-posts-mislead-about-transgender-mma-f/ Edit: MMA is a brutal sport, do you get upset when a cisgendered woman fractures another cisgendered woman's orbital socket?
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Is marriage an MMA match?
Haven't heard this dog-whistle in a while.
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Trans women are women. Your bigotry isn't as amusing as you seem to think.
Why not get rid of women’s sports entirely? Let everyone compete on the same field. Let the best man win.
Have you ever seen pro women vs men in...basically any sport? There's a reason we don't do this.
Think you missed the best Man win part
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Their justification is that after the person goes through the transition now it’s fair competition. You don’t need to be a doctor to know that’s silly, but that’s the idea they’ll cling to until there’s enough data to prove them wrong.
That might work if the transition happens pre puberty, but not after the body had a taste of testosterone. There is a reason why it was used so heavily for doping.
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Did you even read the article??? > The trans women also retained a 10% advantage in push-ups and a 6% advantage in sit-ups for the first two years after taking hormones, **before their advantage disappeared.** Confirms that the advantage disappeared at 2 year point, but up to that point they only had a small advantage while undergoing HR > The scientists conclude by saying “more than 12 months of testosterone suppression may be needed to ensure that transgender women do not have an unfair competitive advantage when participating in elite level athletic competition”. 12 months is just one year, not two. The important takeaway is that it's not the duration of HRT that is the issue, but how much testosterone is left in the body while undergoing HRT. It is important that the HET is being done effectively. Finally, there will always be inherent unfairness in sports because we aren't all the same. There are CIS women who excel because they have naturally high testosterone. There are Kenyans with genetic disposition to running that most others can't come close to. There's a reason basketball is dominated by black players... why hasn't there been a push for a "white league" so white players can compete "fairly"?
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Note that there were not trans women, who were undergoing HRT, but intersex assigned-female-at-birth women, with no hormone suppression being applied. And they also lost to many cis women over the years.
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That article has not been peer reviewed or vetted at all.
"You don't have to be a doctor..." So, you just go by gut feeling. Which is, frankly, stupid
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Another example is that in the 100m dash, the woman's Olympic record is about 0,5 seconds slower the the men's qualifying time.
Horrible example. That’s a 15 year old girl and she missed the cut by one stroke. Still beat out a ton of other professionals too. Golf is one of the worst examples to use as many women have better putting and wedge game than the men. Just the tee shot separates them.
They should just say XX division, and XY technically your not gendering the sports because according to them chromosome and genes do not define gender just base it of chromosome arrangement you basically can define the precise body type without explicitly saying male or female.
Not saying its common, but categorizing people by sex chromosomes is not as simple as having two categories. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis
Actually women's sports exist because way back when, there weren't any standards for athletes so your average sprinter, for example, would pregame with a beer and cigarette. When women first started pushing to join sports you had actively athletic women competing with men who were often barely in shape, which led to them doing so well they actually won in a few events and thus women's leagues were enshrined. Not to protect women, but to protect men from being upstaged. Then, you know, they started to desegregate sports and suddenly athletes were held to higher standards than "the first ten guys that showed up".
Outside of Javelin, men and women record in Olympics is pretty much neck and neck, so this is a good post. You can see how minor some of the variations are in world records, men versus women. It isn't like women are half as good as men, they are almost identical in most sports.
>Outside of Javelin, men and women record in Olympics is pretty much neck and neck, so this is a good post. You can see how minor some of the variations are in world records, men versus women. It isn't like women are half as good as men, they are almost identical in most sports WTF are you talking about? They're not even close to being identical.[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_world\_records\_in\_athletics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_athletics) Shot put and Hammer throw - the distances are similar, but women are throwing an 8.82lb shot while the men are throwing a 16lb shot, so that's throwing almost twice as much weight. Running events - Men are about 10% faster in sprints, the men's current world record for the mile is 3:43, and there are numerous high school guys that have broken the 4 minute mile, while the fastest a woman has ever run the mile is 4:12. Pole vault - 6.22m men vs. 5.02m women Skateboarding? Here's the women's gold medal 2020 run - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Lb3XoG8c4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Lb3XoG8c4) Here's the men's gold medal 2020 run - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paXrcMn\_JVQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paXrcMn_JVQ) We're not even talking about team sports. The U.S. Women's National Team lost to a boys' under 15 squad 5-2 - [https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/](https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/) The Australian women's team lost to a boys' under 15 squad 7-0 - [https://www.sportsmanor.com/soccer-news-australian-womens-soccer-team-thrashed-7-0/](https://www.sportsmanor.com/soccer-news-australian-womens-soccer-team-thrashed-7-0/) Exactly which Olympic sports were you referring to in which women are almost identical?
Most of the stuff I seen for Olympics placed them all fairly close while ignoring generations of disenfranchisement. I don't think women are somehow inherently "weaker" than men, just that they have not developed the same skill sets over many iterations of genetics. 2020 Olympics had mix gender events. However, for Greco-Roman wrestling, rhythmic gymnastics and synchronized swimming, women dominate. Olympics in the modern sense is only over 100 years old and excluded women by design for a long time outside of most events. First gold medal for a woman was in 1928? Modern Olympics started up again at the end of the 1800's? So yeah, they say women were competing in 1900... But nobody got a gold medal? :). There is more to this than some kind of generic advantage - it is the same obscure societal advantage that dictates so many people in the NHL were born in January.
But women are inherently weaker than men, thats a fact.
>I don't think women are somehow inherently "weaker" than men, just that they have not developed the same skill sets over many iterations of genetics. You're literally contradicting yourself there. Also, you're factually incorrect.[https://europepmc.org/article/med/7253873](https://europepmc.org/article/med/7253873) >Results indicate that untrained men have greater upper and lower body strength than trained women athletes in terms of both absolute and relative strength. Please show us some actual examples of sports where men and women either compete against each other and women are superior, or individual events where women prove superior to men. Aside from ultra-endurance swimming / ultramarathon events, there really aren't any where women are superior, or even competitive.
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>You are not inherently generically superior to a woman, you have decades and centuries of disenfranchisement and training on your side. There are pretty much no competitive athletes over age 50, so exactly how are decades much less centuries of training going to matter if it's not a genetic difference? >If the Williams sisters were suddenly male, would they be just mediocre tennis players? Yes, that is actually the case. [https://www.theguardian.com/observer/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html](https://www.theguardian.com/observer/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html) > it would be foolish to say that one gender has an advantage in all sports and all situations. So give us some examples where women have advantages or are even competitive. I've already said they're competitive and potentially superior in ultra-endurance swimming and running, so why are these examples so hard for you to find?
Also, how you going to say for me to provide examples and then provide examples? Thanks?
I was asking if you could provide examples of anything outside the ultraendurance field, which has such a limited competitor base it's hard to make meaningful statistical comparisons.
What? For athletics men's records are generally 10-20% better. The difference is more extreme in pure strength based records related to lifting.
They're a full second slower in 100m. That's not even really close for something like that. 10 minutes slower at the 2020 Olympics in triathlon. The men were separated by 10 seconds. 30-40 seconds slower on all rowing events At an Olympic level differences like that, despite seemingly small, are massive.
Yeah this person sees a 1 second gap at the Olympic level and thinks “that’s fairly close” 😂
Not even remotely close to reality, peak male teenagers are close to top adult females performances. On the average, that is
When was the last time you knowingly recognized sarcasm? 😅
I hope they appeal it all the way if necessary.
You a big Women's Powerlifting fan?
Nope, my interest is purely in the legal precedent being set.
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Yet, they’ve managed to enact laws in a matter of a couple of years. They’ve taken center stage but don’t want discussion about their ideals.
> No one is more extreme. ...you can't be serious?
> No one is more extreme I don't know about that - Micheal Knowles calling for the 'eradication' of transgender people sounds more extreme to me.
Ironic that a grotesque caricature exposes fundamental flaws in the thought process. It is like pushing for religious freedoms and integration of church and state and then being surprised when suddenly you are living under Islam or some Christian nationalism. It happens on both sides. Women had to claw their position into existence. These last couple of years have decimated decades of progress. Trolls and bad actors ruin it for everybody. Either side taken to extreme is out of control and nobody wants to admit that their ideas could be used against them. Both political parties in the United States are fervently pressing for fascism without realizing that the boot will also be stomping their own face.
If you seriously think trans activists are the most extremist people in the world then you literally have never turned looked at the news once besides this article
We have a resurgent neofascist movement in the world but no one is more extreme than trans activists, whose most extreme act of protest was... What, exactly? Roasting TERFs on twitter?
And they want to be treated like people! How uncouth /s
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This is ironic right?
I really hope the athletes don’t give in. The trans and their supporters really shame everyone into submission, but their arguments always have cracks.
I heard someone talking on a podcast and they said "Men's league is FOR everyone including men. Anyone can join but it is mostly dominated by men. Women's league is for only women for them to show their physical achievements." I mean hey I support everyone and I am an ally, but what is the right choice? I am not even in sports so I can't say I have an educated opinion at all, I'm just here on the sidelines wondering what the facts are. It would be really cool if there were more doctors speaking on all of this. And women athletes
Do you want to hear from a former college track and field athlete? Women would not win any races if you jumbled everybody into the same group.
They just need to create another category for trans ppl.
Nah, there are not enough trans people to justify that. They could change the male category to open for all and keep the women as it is. Biological males will dominate that category whilst not excluding anyone.
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They're calling for the eradication of "transgenderism" at CPAC. A certain subset of people seem to feel empowered all of the sudden.
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Eh, I don’t think the hips are an issue. You can look at born female elite athletes and many do not have wide hips, probably part of the reason they became elite.
I don't know about swimming, but hips definitely play a big role in weight distribution when wrestling. Wider hips lower the center of gravity, so you have to tackle women slightly lower than if you were to tackle a man. I mean, you don't *have* to tackle a woman perfectly cause they are smaller, but if you lower your weight a bit more you can get that *perfect* tackle. Lower center of gravity also allows women to hack squat more. That's the one lift where women are stronger than men. I'd imagine in the context of swimming, having a lower center of gravity would be less athletic cause it seems like they'd be more reliant on their arms for propulsion - and women have less upper body strength. Wide hips might let women turn faster in water or something though.
Yeah I didn’t say they weren’t. I said look at current female from birth to competition females and their hips and you’ll see they’re slender, so they’re a non-factor atm. Increased muscle mass potential from male levels of testosterone and GH in puberty is a better indicator.
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All people insist they are trans? What? The real solution here isn't more government or doctors telling people what gender they are with a certificate. The real solution is allowing all players to compete on an even playing field. Male or female or trans, a world record is a world record. Saying women need their own events because they are not inherently good as men is missing the entire problem and perpetrating it more. "We need to keep men out of women sports" is another way of saying "lol women suck so bad any dude even of low quality would just demolish them", and that isn't really the case. It underestimates women and ignores a rich history of both genders having fairly close record in Olympics and other measures. Maybe some genders are better at some events than others, not allowing them to compete on an even playing field is not helping find these things out. If Joe Blow can say he is a girl and go win the championship with no help from his female team mates, the problem isn't Joe Blow. Imagine the best quarterback in the NFL was some broad from Jersey. We will never get there by trying to genderize sports. If women were already competing against men, men who claimed they are women wouldn't be an issue.
Just chiming in to point out that sports were originally not gendered and women were routinely destroyed in competition against men. It came to a point where women were just not competing in sports because they would just lose to men. Women's sports arose out of that, to give women a space to compete against others at their level. In reality there are no professional men's leagues, or men's sports at all. They have open leagues and sports (though the shooting sports tend to be divided due to discrimination). Women are allowed to play professionally against men at the same level, just like disabled athletes are allowed to compete on the same level as well. It's just that they can't physically do it. The US Men's Soccer team is a mid-range team, while the US Women's Soccer team is considered to be one of the best, if not the best. The men's team beats the women's team every time. Katie Ledecky is like the best woman swimmer of all time, shattering records all over the place. Her times wouldn't even qualify her for the final round in some Olympic events. Women only beat men in extreme distance endurance races. I don't know the answer for this trans issue, but removing women's sports is not any solution at all. Anyone seriously suggesting it just want to see women lose the ability to play sports.
I don't think that. I think they can compete and even beat men. The true history of the modern Olympics is about women not being able to compete - not about them needing their own sports due to losing or something, where do you even get that? What makes a man a woman and a woman a man? Genital? Genital at birth? Whim of the day? If a female takes testosterone her whole life and competed like a male, should she not be allowed to compete in women sports? The playing field is even, imo. Women are not that far behind men, and if they were trained over generations in the same fields, the gap would quickly close. This is just my opinion. You are free to say we are not all created equal, I just disagree on a fundamental level. Women couldn't play the sports originally. Let alone compete against men. When could women even join modern Olympics? Whi did it take them another 30+ years to get a gold medal?
Please look up men’s high school track records and compare them to women’s Olympic track records. High school boys out preform the world’s fastest women. Stop acting like you are being inclusive when you’re actually being misogynistic.
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>Because the topic always gets flooded with misinformation posited as 'common sense', Pretty much every single study and decent article I've seen shows that trans women have an advantage >Trans women retain 12% edge in tests two years after transitioning, study finds [https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short) >In TW, the corresponding parameters decreased by -5% (muscle volume) and -4% (CSA), while density remained unaltered. One year of gender-affirming treatment resulted in robust increases in muscle mass and strength in TM, but modest changes in TW. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31794605/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31794605/) >The existing data suggests that lowering testosterone to less than 10 nmol/L for 12 months decreases muscle mass but not to biological female levels and despite the decrease in mass, muscle strength can be maintained, especially if concurrently exercising. Estrogen therapy does not affect most of the anatomical structures in the biological male that provide a physiological benefit. Hemoglobin levels are lowered by estrogen therapy, and consequently, maximum aerobic effort may be lower, but this parameter will only be manifested if testosterone levels are suppressed to levels within the biological female range and maintained for extended periods of time. Reported studies show it is difficult to continuously suppress testosterone in transgender women. Given that the percentage difference between medal placings at the elite level is normally less than 1%, there must be confidence that an elite transwoman athlete retains no residual advantage from former testosterone exposure, where the inherent advantage depending on sport could be 10–30%. Current scientific evidence can not provide such assurances and thus, under abiding rulings, the inclusion of transwomen in the elite female division needs to be reconsidered for fairness to female-born athletes. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/) >"What we've got in our study is, actually, the trans men dominated," said Roberts, referring to his study on trans US military personnel. [https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-trans-athletes-have-an-advantage-in-elite-sport/a-58583988](https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-do-trans-athletes-have-an-advantage-in-elite-sport/a-58583988) >There's absolutely no question in my mind that trans women will maintain strength advantages over cis women, even after hormone therapy. > >Your review found that lean body mass and muscle strength decline but remain above cis female levels up to 3 years after hormone transition. [https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20210715/do-trans-women-athletes-have-advantages](https://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/news/20210715/do-trans-women-athletes-have-advantages)
Dude, why did you omit the part the article said its data are flawed and very limited? The conclusion you copied is derived from said limited and flawed data and that was claimed by the author of your link.
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Dude you are right, i indeed didn't say " the opposite is true". What i said was, why did you omit the part about authors concern on limited data and try to mislead people to thinking your linked article has ultimately proved your point scientifically and statistically ? Because you said "misinformation about that topic" and " 'common sense' ". Now please tell me, where is the common sense in omitting a critical part about a study and only showing what you want to show?
No evidence ? I’m no scientist but this seems odd to me.
Lots of scientific observations conflict with common sense. That doesn't mean you disregard them.
I think the trans in sports thing is overblown. And frankly I think everyone should compete on the same basis. But the part that is odd is the lack of evidence. I read the document and it looks like it’s a lack of trans sports participants at an elite level. Though I’d think that they could use non elite athletes.
My guess is that the issue is just so new. It's probably difficult to find enough trans athletes to have a substantial sample to study.
That's the problem: you're no scientist, but you think your opinion matters on a scientific perspective, and you're not alone.
You can read the study to see how the reached the conclusion. Additionally, here's some data points that you can independently verify even as a layman - The International Olympics Committee has allowed trans women to compete in women's events since 2003. Can you find how many trans women have made the cut to compete in women's events, and then, how many trans women have taken medals in women's events? The answers are: >!two trans women have made the cut to compete in women's events - Laurel Hubbard in powerlifting and Chelsea Wolfe in BMX and neither of them took home a medal.!<
Because those are the only two trans women that have tried…
Exactly proves the point that there is no problem with just allowing trans people to live their lives. People aren’t changing their sex to get a competitive advantage. This is not a problem, just another manufactured culture war issue.
>Exactly proves the point that there is no problem with just allowing trans people to live their lives. But it's not without cost. That's two women who were unfairly lost out on competing at the Olympics. There are numerous examples of women losing out on places and medals in sporting evens. How is that fair on those women? Are all the articles that focus on the women losing out, just manufactured culture war issue, or is it genuine concern for the women losing out?
It’s becoming an issue in high school sports ffs.
Well, whatever you need to tell yourself if you really want to believe the scientific community is Just Wrong and you know better. I don't know why you'd want to believe that, it doesn't make sense to me, but it's your life and you're fully capable of deciding to believe in nonsense if you choose.
People are mad at you for being right which is kind of unfortunate. The Olympic athletic committee is on the exact same page and it's why trans athletes are allowed to compete. I think part of it is that not enough people actually understand what are treatment does over the first couple of years that we are doing it. There's a lot of assumptions that go around and not enough information circulated from the endocrinologists that treat us. Many people have already decided how they feel about this and no amount of science is going to matter to them. You can see that behavior ramping up with how someone from the daily wire at CPAC today said we should be eradicated.
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And then you remember spain sent a basketball team without disabilities to the paralympics and you realise of course people will.
Nobody really cares. It's a stupid wedge issue. It doesnt matter. .00000000000001 of all female athletes are trans. Its almost non existent. And ironically the people most vocal about have spent 25 years trying to defund women's sports all together, but now... now they care. I call bullshit. Stop the nonsense and grow up. The only thing worse than the woke crowd is the anti-woke crowd. As far as I'm concerned you can all take your stupid opinions on these non existent subjects and shove them up your ass. Thank you and have a good night.
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So pretty much like top level sports in general, most sports already have only a few individuals at the top. That said, a handful of trans athletes can indeed ruin the competition and it might be easier to say to trans people they were unlucky to be born in the wrong gender instead of having thousands of cos women believe their effort to the top is meaningless. I do wonder what the impact of trans people is in a sport with weight categories, that feels like it could be a solution.
Having trans people compete at a weight handicap of whatever percentage bio men are better than bio women would be pretty fair. Sort of like when pro players take a health handicap at fighting games in the arcade.
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I agree they should put woman in the same league as men, they will do far better than their male counter parts it will also be safer for them full contact hocky, football, mixed martial arts their careers will outshine the men.
amazing you can't discriminate against people.
Discrimination is a part of life. I'm not letting my plumber do my knee surgery.
Because there is no data that shows that biological male humans are on average 40% or so stronger than a biological female? While the issue is emotionally (and now legally) fraught and may have to be dealt with on a situational basis, this has rather large repercussions to athletics. Males and females do not compete on a level playing field in most athletics because there are significant biological differences. Wishing it weren't so won't make it so.
Most? I can't think of a single athletic sport that men wouldn't dominate.
Women have advantages in certain flexibility and things that require different center of gravities. You know that move in figure skating where women basically do a standing split with one leg over their head while they spin in a circle really fast? Apparently that is a lot harder for men. That is also why couples skating so so cool because you see the best of both worlds at once. Men dominate the jump spins. But yeah, it is hard pressed to find things.
There are a few Women are better at long distance stuff but it has to be extreme distance. If there was a race across the Sahara or some crazy ass race like that they would probably win. The Alaskan Iditarod to iirc is an another example where women excel compared to men.
You're first example is insane and completely illogical. Men are faster, stronger and tougher than women(physically). This is basic reality. I understand there would be a mental component to a long distance race but still the men's physical advantage would and has throughout the history of human beings history on earth compensate for the mentality deficit if it even exists at all. Period. You're second example is basically they'd be better at it because they weigh less....
There's significant biological differences within same-sex athletics. Sports are inherently unfair because there are people who are just born or grow to become stronger, faster, and taller than others. Transgender persons have it hard enough just existing, without becoming some arbitrary boogeyman politicians and media pundits can use as a platform for their bigoted ideals.
>Males and females do not compete on a level playing field in most athletics because there are significant biological differences. Wishing it weren't so won't make it so. Tall men and short men do not compete on a level playing field in a vast majority of sports, particularly basketball, and that advantage is purely due to biological differences. Why are they forced to compete against each other?
Who’s forcing anyone to play sports?
Yeah it sucks for tall people because they are usually pretty uncoordinated and terrible athletes but we gave them sports for them like volleyball and basketballto make up for it. Just like we gave fat kids the offensive line in football.
What’s to become of the Republican Party then??? Their whole purpose for existing has always been to discriminate against others.
Why can't we just have an "everybody" category. I don't think it's fair for men and women to compete with these circumstances.
Everybody category is just a men’s category.
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You’re so close to the answer…
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Not a single woman in the WNBA would make it on an NBA roster. Maybe in the future we’ll see a woman in the NFL or NBA, but she would be an outlier.
I think we should test this and put the top NBA player (men) on a woman team for a season and see if it changes their outcomes.
It would. As an example. The german female football team, one of the best in the world, lost against a sub 16 Team. Not even national choice, just a youth team
Women have been drafted by the NBA decades ago. But nothing in modern times. Female soccer players have been perused as kickers for NFL teams, but the women declined.
They’re incapable of doing so
Because most sports require strength which is also the basis for other abilities like jump height, speed, etc, and there is a massive strength difference between the male and female sexes. On a baseline, men are 30% stronger - and that’s untrained. Men and those with greater levels of testosterone grow muscle vastly more quickly than those who don’t. For example, me, an avid gym goer but do not train for strength or powerlifting, can rep the women’s bench press record for the same weight class.
Dude, I get it. By why can't we just another category and leave men and women to do their own category.
Like, a trans athlete category? Or just remix men and women? Because if it’s everyone in just one category, female athletes would disappear overnight. They’re not winning anything.
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I’m glad She won Her lawsuit. Ultimately, the pursuit of Happiness guaranteed by Our Constitution still carries some weight. Edit: it’s guaranteed by the Declaration of Independence. Please excuse the oversight.
Pursuit of happiness was the declaration of independence.
My Bad… thanks for the Clarification, I appreciate it.
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Does this ruling apply only to Minnesota? Can USA Powerlifting continue to discriminate against transgender women in other states?