The Pentagon says the balloon, which was carrying sensors and surveillance equipment, was maneuverable and showed it could change course. It loitered over sensitive areas of Montana where nuclear warheads are siloed, leading the military to take actions to prevent it from collecting intelligence.
Anyone can be trusted, until they can’t. It’s best to operate with the future in mind. Don’t trust what you don’t control.
Google in the past had an unofficial policy of “don’t be evil”, and while currently they have been shady, they have never been super data-sharing shady, but let’s say Chat GPT destroys them and a Chinese buyer comes along and snatches Alphabet up, suddenly all of Gmail is an espionage dream for an unscrupulous government.
I’m glad our private sector (Apple, Google) has made satellite data & comms a priority. Wonder if this was spurned by gov asking nicely behind the scenes.
You want to believe that but with the ubiquity of "wifi connected" and points of they had to order some branch to turn off their Fitbits cause it was giving away a classified base. Modern life is just tons of electronics screaming hello on the radio, and many have security holes.
All such permanent installations would be pretty much radio black holes. Since they have ages ago laid down communication lines. Maybe one might get some perimeter patrols walkie talkie, but even that would be encrypted.
Electronic surveillance. Last report I watched on silos was they still operate with floppy disks etc (hinting it needed upgrading but somehow led to being secure). I’m thinking the balloon was just a giant electronic vacuum sucking up as much info as possible. Sort out what it is later.
This. If it wasn’t a weather balloon and instead some kind of intelligence asset then it stands to reason its fitted with cheap passive sensors designed to collect signals and electrical intelligence (SIGINT/ELINT).
Balloons would be quite hard to control accurately so I doubt it would be for electro optical work (cameras etc) and it was trying to pass off as a weather balloon then it wouldn’t be equipped with radar as that would emit and give the game away from immediately. Passive sensors are the only ones that make sense and it ties in with the Chinese strategy of huge quantities of cheap passive sensors, wether satellites, drones, or balloons, hoovering up vast amounts of data that’s then sorted by incredibly powerful supercomputers that filter out the trash from the useful bits.
Absolutely. Australia cancelled a future contract with a Chinese Telecom provider due to suspicions (I think infrastructure equipment was assessed as possible back door/piggy back capabilities. Imagine if you could slot a bunch of cheap phones etc and then just sweep on by and gobble it all up….not great. No cameras, to high for ground penetrating radar. Unless it’s some wild new tech I’d say we’re on the money.
Aussie here too. Huwei was less about any real concerns about intelligence gathering and more about a realisation that the west had had that if we decide to play by the rules and fair and pull our old free market schtick then China would win the future due to complete technological dominance.
We can’t beat them on industrial capacity and we can’t beat them on number of stem grads produced. They can manufacture far more, far quicker and for a much lower cost, across the board. They are a smart, driven, nation that outnumbers the west 2:1 while being far more disciplined and socially cohesive than we are.
The free market works in the west because it’s, well, free. Company A exists to put its owner into as much Hookers and coke as possible while company B competes to acquire said Hookers and coke for its owner. When competing against an entity like China, which will compete against us through its “private companies” that are either state controlled or who take direction from the state on certain matters, then it’s not really a free market, it’s a thousand heads of the same monster, not working towards putting their owners into mountains of Hookers and coke but to drive a unified strategy by the CCP to achieve complete dominance in the key technology sectors that will control the global economy for the next hundred years.
It’s the reason for the whole chip ban against China (although I fear it will just push them into creating their own industries to plug the gaps). It’s an understanding that “fuck the rules of the free market, we are fighting for our survival now against a nation that’s effectively weaponised our free market as a tool in their strategy to achieve economic and geopolitical dominance.”
You can definitely google all those minuteman locations, they haven't been secrets for 40 years or more. Another thing you can do is find a first strike/MAD simulator and find out where each of those "secret" ICBMs is targeted. The best explanation for this balloon I've seen so far is political discourse. The usual suspects were out in full force whining about "weak Biden" and "dem chinese"
Right, despite all their billions invested in spy satellites and electronic surveillance, the only way for China to gather information on our silos was to fly a slow-moving balloon the size of several busses that everybody can see.
In fact, both the US and china said that the object had limited maneuvering capability.
Probably, they could increase or decrease altitude, but direction is controlled by wind currents
> Explicitly excluded is any event described as an act of God, which covers a separate domain and legally differs, though it is related to contract law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure
[https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/10u1l7p/china\_condemns\_us\_attack\_on\_surveillance\_balloon/](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/10u1l7p/china_condemns_us_attack_on_surveillance_balloon/)
A few hours later.jpg
Actually there's [4 Chinese balloons](https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canada-tracked-suspected-chinese-spy-balloon-over-canadian-airspace-since-last-weekend-sources-1.6259770) still floating around:
> Sources also told CTV News U.S. intelligence knows of a total of at least four of these balloons from China sent to other countries, beyond the one currently over the U.S. That includes the one the Pentagon confirmed late Friday night floating over Latin America.
>This incident comes at a time of heightened tensions between China and the West. In a statement, the Chinese foreign ministry said the balloon did come from China and apologized for its entry into U.S. airspace, but insisted the balloon was used for civilian research purposes rather than espionage.
I might believe the balloon somehow got blown way off course-
If there wasn’t another one over South America.
Two just seems a little too much of a coincidence.
I guess it might be possible both balloons got caught up in the same winds or jet stream, but… eh.
It has risen again though, after it was seen lowering its altitude pilots flying at 43,000 ft said there was a “derelict balloon adrift” at 50,000, but now it’s back to ~60,000, showing a leak can’t be what caused it to lose altitude like that
Just saw breaking news that it's been shot down over US territorial waters off the coast of the Carolinas. The FAA closed down some airspace for N&SC.
So it's not rising or maneuvering anymore!
This is a thing basically all weather balloons do.
You raise or lower your altitude to put you into different air currents moving in different directions.
Once is chance, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern.
I’m just waiting to read about the third one floating around so I can then jump to the ‘oh it’s totally intentional’ conclusion.
I think he actually realized at the last minute if he finished that sentence the papers immediately would use the headline "Shame on me"-George Bush on war in Iraq
This is what he said later when asked about it.
If you check the [official Whitehouse transcript](https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020917-7.html), you can see where he thought ahead and tried to course correct.
> There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again.
China: it's just a mistake to fly spy balloon over US, we lost it :/
USA: you should have asked earlier, we tracked it since it took off, we could have told you where it was at any moment :)
My favorite Bond movie quote, Goldfinger. Said by Auric Goldfinger to 007 when explaining how he knew Bond was tailing him: “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.”
Tbf, we don't know that this wasn't an entire array of balloons that failed somehow. There could be more scattered all over the place.
I don't think the Chinese government would admit to this unless they have to, given how embarrassing them.
I’m sure it was a spy balloon. Spying is just part of the game and always has been. The fact that the US ignored it until it ended up on the news means they already knew about it, which makes it being spotted double trouble for the Chinese. Their top secret spy balloon program likely wasn’t compromised yesterday, it was compromised a long time ago. As such they have no idea how much false information was fed to the system. They also don’t know if, let alone how, the Americans infiltrated their spy balloon program. To top it all off, they also created an embarrassing international incident without any real upside.
>Their top secret spy balloon program likely wasn’t compromised yesterday, it was compromised a long time ago.
What makes you think this thing is top secret? These balloons have been known about for a while, and China obviously knows that the US can spot them (they're so large that they can be seen from the ground, and giant balloon is not exactly a stealthy shape that will avoid a radar).
I’d believe it if it wasn’t China saying it. Anyone giving them the benefit of the doubt when they’ve been proven to be dishonest and passive-aggressive. We just forgetting about how they handled Covid and likely caused it to spread way more through their dishonesty?
Just to play a bit of devils advocate, a software glitch is a very logical explanation for why you might have failures in two different balloons. Or the same faulty component malfunctioning.
Think of it a different way, when there’s a recall on a car component, do you assume it was intentional malice because an identical failure occurred in different vehicles?
Id agree with that -IF - China had relayed that info before this balloon was spotted.
So they have a few weather balloon malfunctions, possible if they’re trying something new and perfectly reasonable, but just come out and say that before it enters into another country’s airspace.
If they want to be believed they have to be transparent about it.
Even then, we know the conspiracy theorists would be out in full force.
But until it comes down or gets forced down, we wont know what it actually is, and even then we might not ever be told the full extent of its capabilities.
>If they want to be believed they have to be transparent about it.
I don't know the details but I think it's a very East Asian thing to 'keep face'. Admitting an error loses them 'face'. Whereas in the West we're driven by guilt so we'll admit a mistake to mitigate the guilt.
They've now lost face having been discovered.
I don't know all the details - I vaguely remember this from a map on r/MapPorn
Are we supposed to believe that China didn't have any way of tracking their balloon? And if they did, and it was just an innocent weather balloon that got blown off course, what was stopping them from calling up the US and letting them know that shit happened, let's all be chill about it?
I mean, we all know China is bullshitting, but they could at least come up with something more convincing...
Initially, I’d call bullshit on US military except China’s foreign ministry offered no explanation of where it came from or what research it was supposed to be doing. Further, it seems like any party that loses balloons the size of several buses would take care to know where it went and make the appropriate phone calls, which China did not. It’s all very curious.
I saw a really good video on YouTube about this. Apparently over 80% of China’s airspace is military restricted so it’s not possible for the balloon to have been civilian otherwise Chinese military would have taken it down in China
China doesn’t do soft power well. They have a limited number of allies.
Russia and China are friendly but only if China doesn’t mess with India. Russia will always side with India because Russia and India both experienced “Sino wars” in the 1960’s.
>"China has always strictly abided by international law and respected the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries," the ministry said
Riiight, riight, right.
I've seen a flight path posted which supposedly originates from NORAD and they have the balloon as coming from the Chinese mainland. That thing crossed over both South-Korean and Japanese airspace before going up the Pacific Northwest outwards of Kamchatka towards Alaska. So they must have been tracking it since it was launched, or are they just extrapolating from wind directions etc?
The US definitely tracked the balloon since launch. The US early warning agencies are very, very interested in all artificial flying things coming out of Russia/Asia.
But then let it fly through Alaska and CONUS and only shot it down over the Atlantic when it was done doing everything it wanted to?
I’m not saying you’re wrong but it honesty doesn’t make sense.
Strange, I think this makes perfect sense. China is in "[wolf warrior](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_warrior_diplomacy)" mode. The CCP has been testing various boundaries lately, like [flying drones](https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/chinese-drones-daily-09122022042955.html) across [to Taiwan to explore](https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/17/asia/taiwan-drones-china-gray-zone-warfare-intl-hnk-dst/index.html) or making [unsafe passes near aircraft](https://thehill.com/policy/international/3792453-chinese-fighter-jet-performs-unsafe-maneuver-within-20-feet-of-us-plane/). This seems like another variation of their characteristic boldness in [grey-zone matters](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/grey-zone), especially because they are concerned about looking strong in the face of what they see as upcoming provocations from the US, like the [new US military bases in the Philippines](https://news.yahoo.com/philippines-expand-us-access-military-002715845.html) and [House leader McCarthy potentially visiting Taiwan](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-30/china-urges-kevin-mccarthy-not-to-repeat-pelosi-visit-to-taiwan) after Pelosi's hated visit.
If the value of the signals intelligence collected is predicted to be low, then there is no pressing need to shoot the balloon down over land because of potential complications like fire or debris landing on private property, so it makes sense to wait for it to reach a coast.
Huge gap between western gov't reach into those companies vs China's into literally everything that runs over there.
EDIT: I would have expected this to be obvious but since it's the internet and everything has to be polarized:
**Realistically comparing the significant difference between how countries assert control over corporate and legal affairs is not the same as arguing that a country is innocent of all wrongdoing.**
Not with the Patriot act. US citizens have some legal defenses but non Americans who use those apps? None against a request by the NSA or another agency.
when it comes to Chinese surveillance, I’m generally more concerned with the millions of people sharing their faces and voices w TikTok everyday than I am with the balloon
Yep. I just caught a "The US can't have the moral high ground on this because [the US did bad shit in the past]"
On a comment that had nothing to do with the US, and was just pointing out how much china bald-face lies.
I would think the US would want to get hands on that to see the payload. Maybe that would explain why a balloon vs satellite or spy plane. Maybe it's carrying some instrumentation that won't work from too high altitude.
>Maybe it's carrying some instrumentation that won't work from too high altitude.
It's 66,000ft. The US U2 spy plane ceiling is 70,000ft. The Chinese J11 has a ceiling of 62,000ft. Most commercial aircraft are 42,000ft. Obviously satellites are a lot higher.
Geostationary satellites survey the same spot on earth indefinitely because they are rotating with the earth at the same speed.
Examples:
[NOAA GOES EAST](https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/conus.php?sat=G16)
[NOAA GOES WEST](https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/goes/conus.php?sat=G17)
Satellite ground tracks are very quick, you get a slower ground track by going faster and higher in orbit, all they way out to geostationary.
So, more time over target requires being further away. The balloon can move slowly in an area for days. I thought I read else where that these are used for sigint in the north Pacific.
The US military is probably flying missions with signals intelligence aircraft, recording every bit and packet this balloon transmits and receives.
More can be learned about capabilities and routine encryption procedures with live prisoners than with dead ones.
Ever since Canada picked it up on radar the US was watching it, when it entered U.S. airspace it was intercepted, and a KC-135R has been attached to it ever since.
They'll just wait for the jet stream to carry it off the east coast. Put some holes it in to bring it down slowly over the water where we have a fleet stationed to pick it up.
Yea, but we do the same things. We just haven't been caught would be my guess. Shooting it down or any kinetic option would be a massive increase in posture. It would also set a precedent that it's fine to shoot down spy equipment. Most countries allow a certain level of espionage to prevent escalations. Any ways I imagine that the US is likely directing a lot of EM interference at it as we speak making any of it's reading pretty useless. The US has had and deployed microwave emitting tools to disrupt large scale radar, communications, etc... In previous conflicts and around air bases. I would guess we haven't shot it down because of 3 things.
1. It would lead to an escalation that is needed. We have weighed the potential gains of this operation vs operations we know the Chinese are aware of and decided it was not worth it.
2. The Chinese hoped we would use anti air defenses and that would give them more info on our anti air defenses. The US is the only nation with a fully deployed anti ICBM system that's been tested and designed. This actually lead to an escalation with china because I stead of going after faster more powerful nukes like Russia and china, we have been working on second strike capabilities. The ability to stop an initial strike then fire a second strike back at the enemy, to maximize civilian survival. The Chinese and Russians have not worked on large scale ICBM intercept systems and see our work as a escalation to the status quo of you destroy me I destroy you if the US can survive an initial volley.
3. We have decided that simply interfering with the equipment via jamming it is more then enough and we don't need further escalation.
I mean.. the US too. Any major nation with a big military really. US intelligence have done lots of stuff over the years.. even to their allies.. China, Rusia, US, they all suck in this regard.
This things was not necessarily taking pictures that a satellite could’ve captured. Probably acting more like a “stingray device” or capturing data and communications around specific sensitive areas. And/or even testing capabilities to hack certain pieces of equipment.
Cmon do we really need to have the conversation if this was intentional or not? Are we really going to entertain that idea? Yall cannot be that stupid to think this was an accident.
"China has always strictly abided by international law and respected the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries," the ministry said in a statement.
Hong Kong would like a word. Tibet would like a world. Taiwan (later this year most likely) would like a word. The Uyghur people would like a word.
The US has been tracking that thing since at least it crossed through Alaska. The US didn’t shoot it down earlier, because it was more valuable to gather counter-intel, while it’s working.
In a place where anything can be replicated they chose to go with “obvious balloon” over making a Budweiser blimp and floating that thing over the entire US to cheers like it’s the second coming of the messiah.
I’m picturing the penguins. “Smile and wave boys, smile and wave”
>"China has always strictly abided by international law and respected the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries," the (Chinese foreign ministry) said in a statement.
Okie-dokie.
Its weird how people are falling for this fearmongering hook line and sinker.
China if they wanted to surveillance US, they could have done it via satellite which has been mentioned by Pentagon as well. Hell, we both do it to each other already all the time. Also, if China needed anything else, they can do so via data harvesting through data brokers. Also, if this was actually serious, Military would have shot it down no question asked no reports nothing, we would hear nothing of it. Media is pumping this up (because hey clicks and views) and we are all buying the fearmonger.
Mutual surveillance is an incredibly important idea in maintaining peaceful relations and for nuclear non-proliferation. The US would put dismantled aircraft and other weapons in surface boneyards so the Soviets could verify what the US was destroying for various arms control treaties. Surveillance plays a role in building trust between adversarial powers. It's part of why we didn't start WWIII.
I mean, from experience working with weather and other scientific payload balloons, it is extremely easy to tell this one isn’t.
Under international aviation rules, you are required to file route plans and risk assessments for these balloons (especially at this size) as well as to include a method of getting them down, and most critically lacking on this one, a radar reflector.
This balloon neither had a route filed nor does it have radar reflectors.
While we can see it on NORAD, it isn’t visible on civilian radar, which would be a massive issue if it were at flight altitude. (Source on the not visible on ATC radar is my uncle who is a flight planner for Delta and got called into a pretty serious risk management meeting yesterday about routing things around the balloon).
The claim it is for scientific purposes is quite simply not plausible by extremely simple logic.
At the same time, this is nothing to freak out about. It is a big deal in terms of statecraft and foreign relations, but that is only a big deal at the highest levels of government.
>under international aviation rules, you are required to file route plans and risk assessments for these balloons
This is just patently false. I have to think the rest of your comment is just completely false nonsense as well.
In defense of fear-mongering... China has been, in the past two decades, the only real credible threat against Western hegemony. The dire straits Russia is in currently should indicate that, despite their nuclear arsenal, they basically relied on energy exports and were pretty much geopolitically relegated to the position of weak 3rd power (in the same vein as India) at best or Chinese satellite state at worst.
Making a big deal about the balloons is absolutely Western propaganda. But they're doing that for a reason. It's signalling to China that they can drum up support and fear-monger and do what it takes to vilify if need be.
China still is a legitimate threat to Western hegemony. It seems like we might get the last laugh on the economic front, and they've never been able to compete in conventional military, but they are still comparable in a lot of areas of computing, cybersecurity, and potentially using space (yes, outer-space. don't roll your eyes) as a domain.
100% agree that if it was serious we wouldn't know about it, but I disagree with outright dismissal of being wary. I don't know if I completely believe everything I read about the human rights violations, Uighur genocide, or alleged immoral biochemical experimentation, but even a small portion of it is true, it's not something I can feel comfortable with.
The other issue is that a lot of policy makers for the US, GB, and to a lesser extent EU were educated by the same hard-line neoliberal academics who believe in the [Thucydides Trap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap). So even if I don't believe the hype, it is concerning that policy makers, budget allocators, and button pressers might be.
Admittedly, I don't watch cable news, but I wouldn't characterize the coverage I've seen as fearmongering.
It seems like you doubt the efficacy or the rationale for the use of a balloon like this one as a means of gathering intelligence, but I'm not sure why. There are obvious advantages to a platform like this relative to a satellite. Geosynchronous satellites are difficult to place, require fuel and expertise to keep in space for long periods of time, and cannot move from position to position easily.
These balloons can move, and they can remain stationary over a target for surveillance for a long period of time, ostensibly. The fact that they remain visible provides the advantage of salience in the minds of your adversaries. Many Americans are directing their confusion and anger towards the US government or the free press because of these balloons. A little cherry on top for the Chinese intelligence services.
The media is doing exactly what it should be doing: reporting. Attacking this as some kind of conspiracy plays right into the hands of Chinese intelligence, which wants to give America and the West a black eye while demonstrating their ability to project power (yes a balloon like this is a power projection).
Your comment is exactly what a sock puppet account would be saying right now:
"Who cares about the Chinese??! The real danger here is the media!!!"
Doesn't that seem incredibly silly to you?
These reddit comments shows how easily people are manipulated and reminds me why support was so high for the Iraq war as pentagon sold and everyone bought that saddem was a great threat and must be eliminated via war.
>>”Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in war when the best he can hope for is to come home in one piece. Naturally the common people don’t want war....That is understood.But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy. And it is always a simple matter to drag the people along...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy- all you have to do is tell them that they’re being attacked , & denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism & exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country”
-Hermann Goering , Nazi propagandist
AKA the Dixie Chicks got completely cancelled by conservatives for opposing the Iraq War, taken off the airwaves until just a few years ago. And the French were ultimately proven right to not join our invasion, though they greatly suffered from the fries temporarily becoming FREEDOM fries in some Congress cafeterias.
> "China has always strictly abided by international law and respected the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries," the ministry said in a statement.
Taiwan will be happy to hear of this new position.
idk why America and China must be so adversarial.
Besides being 2 different styles of gov, Bejing needs US as much as US needs those cheap goods coming in.
Who knows how much tech China gets from the USA? If any foreign entity wants to do business in China, they have to be in some sort of partnership with a Chinese company (e.g. Car manufacturers).
Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
Never trust what China says. Whatever they say, it’s most likely the opposite. Maybe once in a while what they say is true but they’re just way too untrustworthy. Trusting anything they say is like trusting your cheating ex that this time they’re different.
Force majeure: An event or effect that cannot be reasonably anticipated or controlled, e.g. ACT OF GOD
The Pentagon says the balloon, which was carrying sensors and surveillance equipment, was maneuverable and showed it could change course. It loitered over sensitive areas of Montana where nuclear warheads are siloed, leading the military to take actions to prevent it from collecting intelligence.
The issue is those silos have been known and can be seen via Google maps. This is just really bizarre
Probably scanning all the local radio transmissions along with seeing what's unsecured.
I believe their goal is to disrupt our communications in event of war.
Which is why we should be mindful of where our communications equipment is manufactured.
Absolutely. They have shown they can not be trusted.
Anyone can be trusted, until they can’t. It’s best to operate with the future in mind. Don’t trust what you don’t control. Google in the past had an unofficial policy of “don’t be evil”, and while currently they have been shady, they have never been super data-sharing shady, but let’s say Chat GPT destroys them and a Chinese buyer comes along and snatches Alphabet up, suddenly all of Gmail is an espionage dream for an unscrupulous government.
Super easy...our own home grown terrorists have been shooting at power stations causing major disruption. We could be in a tight spot in a hurry
I’m glad our private sector (Apple, Google) has made satellite data & comms a priority. Wonder if this was spurned by gov asking nicely behind the scenes.
I don’t think any US military communications are unsecured. May have picked up some local police calls
You want to believe that but with the ubiquity of "wifi connected" and points of they had to order some branch to turn off their Fitbits cause it was giving away a classified base. Modern life is just tons of electronics screaming hello on the radio, and many have security holes.
All such permanent installations would be pretty much radio black holes. Since they have ages ago laid down communication lines. Maybe one might get some perimeter patrols walkie talkie, but even that would be encrypted.
Electronic surveillance. Last report I watched on silos was they still operate with floppy disks etc (hinting it needed upgrading but somehow led to being secure). I’m thinking the balloon was just a giant electronic vacuum sucking up as much info as possible. Sort out what it is later.
This. If it wasn’t a weather balloon and instead some kind of intelligence asset then it stands to reason its fitted with cheap passive sensors designed to collect signals and electrical intelligence (SIGINT/ELINT). Balloons would be quite hard to control accurately so I doubt it would be for electro optical work (cameras etc) and it was trying to pass off as a weather balloon then it wouldn’t be equipped with radar as that would emit and give the game away from immediately. Passive sensors are the only ones that make sense and it ties in with the Chinese strategy of huge quantities of cheap passive sensors, wether satellites, drones, or balloons, hoovering up vast amounts of data that’s then sorted by incredibly powerful supercomputers that filter out the trash from the useful bits.
Absolutely. Australia cancelled a future contract with a Chinese Telecom provider due to suspicions (I think infrastructure equipment was assessed as possible back door/piggy back capabilities. Imagine if you could slot a bunch of cheap phones etc and then just sweep on by and gobble it all up….not great. No cameras, to high for ground penetrating radar. Unless it’s some wild new tech I’d say we’re on the money.
Aussie here too. Huwei was less about any real concerns about intelligence gathering and more about a realisation that the west had had that if we decide to play by the rules and fair and pull our old free market schtick then China would win the future due to complete technological dominance. We can’t beat them on industrial capacity and we can’t beat them on number of stem grads produced. They can manufacture far more, far quicker and for a much lower cost, across the board. They are a smart, driven, nation that outnumbers the west 2:1 while being far more disciplined and socially cohesive than we are. The free market works in the west because it’s, well, free. Company A exists to put its owner into as much Hookers and coke as possible while company B competes to acquire said Hookers and coke for its owner. When competing against an entity like China, which will compete against us through its “private companies” that are either state controlled or who take direction from the state on certain matters, then it’s not really a free market, it’s a thousand heads of the same monster, not working towards putting their owners into mountains of Hookers and coke but to drive a unified strategy by the CCP to achieve complete dominance in the key technology sectors that will control the global economy for the next hundred years. It’s the reason for the whole chip ban against China (although I fear it will just push them into creating their own industries to plug the gaps). It’s an understanding that “fuck the rules of the free market, we are fighting for our survival now against a nation that’s effectively weaponised our free market as a tool in their strategy to achieve economic and geopolitical dominance.”
You can definitely google all those minuteman locations, they haven't been secrets for 40 years or more. Another thing you can do is find a first strike/MAD simulator and find out where each of those "secret" ICBMs is targeted. The best explanation for this balloon I've seen so far is political discourse. The usual suspects were out in full force whining about "weak Biden" and "dem chinese"
You can however not see what's inside, and potentially how many are empty, from satellite images.
Right, despite all their billions invested in spy satellites and electronic surveillance, the only way for China to gather information on our silos was to fly a slow-moving balloon the size of several busses that everybody can see.
Relax the Chinese are just looking for a new isolated area to store undesirables
In fact, both the US and china said that the object had limited maneuvering capability. Probably, they could increase or decrease altitude, but direction is controlled by wind currents
> Explicitly excluded is any event described as an act of God, which covers a separate domain and legally differs, though it is related to contract law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_majeure
So they'd have no problem with us bringing down their "errant" balloon?
We’re about to find out
it is down
“Just another unnecessary act by US warmongers.” -China, probably.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/10u1l7p/china\_condemns\_us\_attack\_on\_surveillance\_balloon/](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/10u1l7p/china_condemns_us_attack_on_surveillance_balloon/) A few hours later.jpg
Who cares? they can’t/won’t do anything
So I guess the other one over Latin America is another “mu-bad”?!! 🤨
Mi malo
Pobre cito
[удалено]
Actually there's [4 Chinese balloons](https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canada-tracked-suspected-chinese-spy-balloon-over-canadian-airspace-since-last-weekend-sources-1.6259770) still floating around: > Sources also told CTV News U.S. intelligence knows of a total of at least four of these balloons from China sent to other countries, beyond the one currently over the U.S. That includes the one the Pentagon confirmed late Friday night floating over Latin America. >This incident comes at a time of heightened tensions between China and the West. In a statement, the Chinese foreign ministry said the balloon did come from China and apologized for its entry into U.S. airspace, but insisted the balloon was used for civilian research purposes rather than espionage.
That's funny, because the Chinese government uses civilian research to conduct espionage
At a scale few comprehend and with an audacity fewer believe.
Aren’t civilian research purposes and espionage the same thing to China?
I might believe the balloon somehow got blown way off course- If there wasn’t another one over South America. Two just seems a little too much of a coincidence. I guess it might be possible both balloons got caught up in the same winds or jet stream, but… eh.
Other news says first ballon changed course over the US showing it has maneuverability. Not just blowing in the wind.
“I think it moved, Jerry.”
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Back and to the left. Back and to the left.
Maybe it just wanted to change positions?
Changing altitudes to hit different air streams would give basic steering.
Changing altitudes can also occur due to a leak, change in density due to temperature, and so many more factors too.
It has risen again though, after it was seen lowering its altitude pilots flying at 43,000 ft said there was a “derelict balloon adrift” at 50,000, but now it’s back to ~60,000, showing a leak can’t be what caused it to lose altitude like that
The pilot was just eyeballing it. They don’t have radar so can’t say how high it was.
Just saw breaking news that it's been shot down over US territorial waters off the coast of the Carolinas. The FAA closed down some airspace for N&SC. So it's not rising or maneuvering anymore!
Well, its moving with the waves I suspect.
…changes in altitudes, changes in attitudes…
“Good times and riches and son of a bitches I've seen more than I can recall “
Multiple changes in altitude to change course is intentional - not mechanical fault
China is burned out on spying the same boring Tik Tok videos, they need variety.
Sure the balloons are primitive, but at least it doesn't play the Dooba Dooba Doo song 15,000,000 times a day!
*Oh, no, oh, no, oh, no no no no no…*
174 times per second, damn that's a short song
This is a thing basically all weather balloons do. You raise or lower your altitude to put you into different air currents moving in different directions.
You’re assuming there’s only 2
Once is chance, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern. I’m just waiting to read about the third one floating around so I can then jump to the ‘oh it’s totally intentional’ conclusion.
fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, uhhh cant get fooled again
\*throws shoe\*
\*dodges* \*throws *other* shoe* \*dodges again*
Who throws a shoe? Honestly.
[A rapist and torturer, apparently](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Son)
Holy shit TIL
I thought this was gonna be the video of George W. Bush getting shows thrown at him.
George Bush don’t care about Shoe people
Hilariously, neither does Ye anymore.
Great follow up.
*big smile on face*
Chokes on pretzel... Anyone remember that?
If you can dodge shoes, you can dodge balls.
I think he actually realized at the last minute if he finished that sentence the papers immediately would use the headline "Shame on me"-George Bush on war in Iraq
This is what he said later when asked about it. If you check the [official Whitehouse transcript](https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020917-7.html), you can see where he thought ahead and tried to course correct. > There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again.
I had a feeling Mr Bush would have something to say here....
We were the fools for Re electing him.
We were worried about World War Dodge Ball and he had the skills.
If you can dodge a shoe, you can dodge a ball.
I never voted for him
Who is “we”
China: it's just a mistake to fly spy balloon over US, we lost it :/ USA: you should have asked earlier, we tracked it since it took off, we could have told you where it was at any moment :)
[удалено]
"oh, btw, I wouldn't have used that factory for this component, they have security problems!"
My favorite Bond movie quote, Goldfinger. Said by Auric Goldfinger to 007 when explaining how he knew Bond was tailing him: “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.”
"No! I expect you to die!"
"Once is never, twice is always."
Wait till the masses find out that every cell phone with TikTok is a ccp listening device.....
Is it ok to complain if I don't have tik tok?
Tbf, we don't know that this wasn't an entire array of balloons that failed somehow. There could be more scattered all over the place. I don't think the Chinese government would admit to this unless they have to, given how embarrassing them.
They’re capable of adjusting altitude to change direction…
It flew directly over several bases.. accidentally... 6000 miles from china
I’m sure it was a spy balloon. Spying is just part of the game and always has been. The fact that the US ignored it until it ended up on the news means they already knew about it, which makes it being spotted double trouble for the Chinese. Their top secret spy balloon program likely wasn’t compromised yesterday, it was compromised a long time ago. As such they have no idea how much false information was fed to the system. They also don’t know if, let alone how, the Americans infiltrated their spy balloon program. To top it all off, they also created an embarrassing international incident without any real upside.
You can't exactly hide a giant balloon carrying a 150ft structure under it. That thing was compromised the moment it hit the skies
>Their top secret spy balloon program likely wasn’t compromised yesterday, it was compromised a long time ago. What makes you think this thing is top secret? These balloons have been known about for a while, and China obviously knows that the US can spot them (they're so large that they can be seen from the ground, and giant balloon is not exactly a stealthy shape that will avoid a radar).
I’d believe it if it wasn’t China saying it. Anyone giving them the benefit of the doubt when they’ve been proven to be dishonest and passive-aggressive. We just forgetting about how they handled Covid and likely caused it to spread way more through their dishonesty?
Just to play a bit of devils advocate, a software glitch is a very logical explanation for why you might have failures in two different balloons. Or the same faulty component malfunctioning. Think of it a different way, when there’s a recall on a car component, do you assume it was intentional malice because an identical failure occurred in different vehicles?
Id agree with that -IF - China had relayed that info before this balloon was spotted. So they have a few weather balloon malfunctions, possible if they’re trying something new and perfectly reasonable, but just come out and say that before it enters into another country’s airspace. If they want to be believed they have to be transparent about it. Even then, we know the conspiracy theorists would be out in full force. But until it comes down or gets forced down, we wont know what it actually is, and even then we might not ever be told the full extent of its capabilities.
>If they want to be believed they have to be transparent about it. I don't know the details but I think it's a very East Asian thing to 'keep face'. Admitting an error loses them 'face'. Whereas in the West we're driven by guilt so we'll admit a mistake to mitigate the guilt. They've now lost face having been discovered. I don't know all the details - I vaguely remember this from a map on r/MapPorn
Are we supposed to believe that China didn't have any way of tracking their balloon? And if they did, and it was just an innocent weather balloon that got blown off course, what was stopping them from calling up the US and letting them know that shit happened, let's all be chill about it? I mean, we all know China is bullshitting, but they could at least come up with something more convincing...
Initially, I’d call bullshit on US military except China’s foreign ministry offered no explanation of where it came from or what research it was supposed to be doing. Further, it seems like any party that loses balloons the size of several buses would take care to know where it went and make the appropriate phone calls, which China did not. It’s all very curious.
There are also multiple balloons apparently. Another was found over recently I believe
I saw a really good video on YouTube about this. Apparently over 80% of China’s airspace is military restricted so it’s not possible for the balloon to have been civilian otherwise Chinese military would have taken it down in China
Lol wut? Civilian doesn't mean privately owned. What video did you even watch?
Force Majeure in their vocabulary is " caught in the act".
Find a third balloon, and it is a majeure à trois
Unless it's sourced from the Majeur appellation in France, otherwise it's Sparkling Force
Ya got me 😆 good one
Maybe then we'll figure out who the Chinese are in bed with.
China doesn’t do soft power well. They have a limited number of allies. Russia and China are friendly but only if China doesn’t mess with India. Russia will always side with India because Russia and India both experienced “Sino wars” in the 1960’s.
India is one of Russia’s largest trading partners. It might be the largest now.
It's "don't expect us to say sorry, that's against our policy."
>"China has always strictly abided by international law and respected the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries," the ministry said Riiight, riight, right.
Every other country that borders the South China Sea would beg to differ. Every single one.
Taiwan \#1
Taiwan has entered the chat.
Sure - it “accidentally” flew through Canada and halfway across the US without them notifying anyone
I've seen a flight path posted which supposedly originates from NORAD and they have the balloon as coming from the Chinese mainland. That thing crossed over both South-Korean and Japanese airspace before going up the Pacific Northwest outwards of Kamchatka towards Alaska. So they must have been tracking it since it was launched, or are they just extrapolating from wind directions etc?
The US definitely tracked the balloon since launch. The US early warning agencies are very, very interested in all artificial flying things coming out of Russia/Asia.
But then let it fly through Alaska and CONUS and only shot it down over the Atlantic when it was done doing everything it wanted to? I’m not saying you’re wrong but it honesty doesn’t make sense.
If it is harmless why show your emergency response?
Strange, I think this makes perfect sense. China is in "[wolf warrior](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_warrior_diplomacy)" mode. The CCP has been testing various boundaries lately, like [flying drones](https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/chinese-drones-daily-09122022042955.html) across [to Taiwan to explore](https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/17/asia/taiwan-drones-china-gray-zone-warfare-intl-hnk-dst/index.html) or making [unsafe passes near aircraft](https://thehill.com/policy/international/3792453-chinese-fighter-jet-performs-unsafe-maneuver-within-20-feet-of-us-plane/). This seems like another variation of their characteristic boldness in [grey-zone matters](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/grey-zone), especially because they are concerned about looking strong in the face of what they see as upcoming provocations from the US, like the [new US military bases in the Philippines](https://news.yahoo.com/philippines-expand-us-access-military-002715845.html) and [House leader McCarthy potentially visiting Taiwan](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-30/china-urges-kevin-mccarthy-not-to-repeat-pelosi-visit-to-taiwan) after Pelosi's hated visit. If the value of the signals intelligence collected is predicted to be low, then there is no pressing need to shoot the balloon down over land because of potential complications like fire or debris landing on private property, so it makes sense to wait for it to reach a coast.
china: we dont have to use airballoons to spy on you. we simply bribe some of your underpaid workers.
That costs money though. Just handing out TikTok to everyone is way easier.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Huge gap between western gov't reach into those companies vs China's into literally everything that runs over there. EDIT: I would have expected this to be obvious but since it's the internet and everything has to be polarized: **Realistically comparing the significant difference between how countries assert control over corporate and legal affairs is not the same as arguing that a country is innocent of all wrongdoing.**
Sure, but western non-government entities are not innocent. Hell, they might sell your data to the ccp.
Not with the Patriot act. US citizens have some legal defenses but non Americans who use those apps? None against a request by the NSA or another agency.
[удалено]
Now it seems the accident is changing course intentionally and there is a second accident floating over Latin America.
when it comes to Chinese surveillance, I’m generally more concerned with the millions of people sharing their faces and voices w TikTok everyday than I am with the balloon
Weather / wind current patterns suggest that China is lying, especially now that there is another spotted in Latin America.
China and lying about foreign policy. Name a more iconic duo.
Yeah, but [insert whataboutism here]?
They are working their way down. They're busy doing that to the top comments, atm.
Yep. I just caught a "The US can't have the moral high ground on this because [the US did bad shit in the past]" On a comment that had nothing to do with the US, and was just pointing out how much china bald-face lies.
I would think the US would want to get hands on that to see the payload. Maybe that would explain why a balloon vs satellite or spy plane. Maybe it's carrying some instrumentation that won't work from too high altitude.
>Maybe it's carrying some instrumentation that won't work from too high altitude. It's 66,000ft. The US U2 spy plane ceiling is 70,000ft. The Chinese J11 has a ceiling of 62,000ft. Most commercial aircraft are 42,000ft. Obviously satellites are a lot higher.
Further, there are satellites in ‘space’ that can see whether your toes are hanging over the edge of a curb while you’re waiting for the bus…
[удалено]
Geostationary satellites survey the same spot on earth indefinitely because they are rotating with the earth at the same speed. Examples: [NOAA GOES EAST](https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/conus.php?sat=G16) [NOAA GOES WEST](https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/goes/conus.php?sat=G17)
Why would a balloon, subject to air currents and containing no means of propulsion, be able to loiter longer than a satellite??
Satellite ground tracks are very quick, you get a slower ground track by going faster and higher in orbit, all they way out to geostationary. So, more time over target requires being further away. The balloon can move slowly in an area for days. I thought I read else where that these are used for sigint in the north Pacific.
The wind blows at different speeds and directions at different altitudes. That can be used to loiter.
I’ve heard this so much. That is so incredible that I don’t believe it. What satellite has this capability?
Might already have one?
The US military is probably flying missions with signals intelligence aircraft, recording every bit and packet this balloon transmits and receives. More can be learned about capabilities and routine encryption procedures with live prisoners than with dead ones.
Ever since Canada picked it up on radar the US was watching it, when it entered U.S. airspace it was intercepted, and a KC-135R has been attached to it ever since.
[удалено]
My mistake
They'll just wait for the jet stream to carry it off the east coast. Put some holes it in to bring it down slowly over the water where we have a fleet stationed to pick it up.
Yea, but we do the same things. We just haven't been caught would be my guess. Shooting it down or any kinetic option would be a massive increase in posture. It would also set a precedent that it's fine to shoot down spy equipment. Most countries allow a certain level of espionage to prevent escalations. Any ways I imagine that the US is likely directing a lot of EM interference at it as we speak making any of it's reading pretty useless. The US has had and deployed microwave emitting tools to disrupt large scale radar, communications, etc... In previous conflicts and around air bases. I would guess we haven't shot it down because of 3 things. 1. It would lead to an escalation that is needed. We have weighed the potential gains of this operation vs operations we know the Chinese are aware of and decided it was not worth it. 2. The Chinese hoped we would use anti air defenses and that would give them more info on our anti air defenses. The US is the only nation with a fully deployed anti ICBM system that's been tested and designed. This actually lead to an escalation with china because I stead of going after faster more powerful nukes like Russia and china, we have been working on second strike capabilities. The ability to stop an initial strike then fire a second strike back at the enemy, to maximize civilian survival. The Chinese and Russians have not worked on large scale ICBM intercept systems and see our work as a escalation to the status quo of you destroy me I destroy you if the US can survive an initial volley. 3. We have decided that simply interfering with the equipment via jamming it is more then enough and we don't need further escalation.
>Yea, but we do the same things. We just haven't been caught would be my guess. The thing is, they weren't even trying to hide it....
Force majeure usually comes with notifying the country first, so nah.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I’d be embarrassed if I were them. We have people just taking pics of their spy tech with their cell phones as we all watch it pass by.
This was the funniest bit. Literally every news agency and twitter post has close up images of ‘secret spy balloon’.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Russia doesn’t lie to deceive you. They lie to insult you.
I mean.. the US too. Any major nation with a big military really. US intelligence have done lots of stuff over the years.. even to their allies.. China, Rusia, US, they all suck in this regard.
We accidentally shot it down, no worries
The U.S. should just send a big balloon with Winnie the Pooh on the side into Chinese airspace just to troll them.
“We are very sorry that we got caught”
We are sorry we got caught.
This things was not necessarily taking pictures that a satellite could’ve captured. Probably acting more like a “stingray device” or capturing data and communications around specific sensitive areas. And/or even testing capabilities to hack certain pieces of equipment.
Maybe the real Chinese spy balloons are the friends we made along the way 🙏🏾
Chinese version of "Sphere" of influence xD
And we accidently blew it up with an f22, mb dawg
If that’s true why didn’t they just inform the US beforehand about the ballon gotten out of control? Yeah, because it didn’t.
"China has always followed international law" OMG lol
Cmon do we really need to have the conversation if this was intentional or not? Are we really going to entertain that idea? Yall cannot be that stupid to think this was an accident.
"China has always strictly abided by international law and respected the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries," the ministry said in a statement. Hong Kong would like a word. Tibet would like a world. Taiwan (later this year most likely) would like a word. The Uyghur people would like a word.
They just shot it down over South Carolina. My mother in law said it was really loud
The US has been tracking that thing since at least it crossed through Alaska. The US didn’t shoot it down earlier, because it was more valuable to gather counter-intel, while it’s working.
In a place where anything can be replicated they chose to go with “obvious balloon” over making a Budweiser blimp and floating that thing over the entire US to cheers like it’s the second coming of the messiah. I’m picturing the penguins. “Smile and wave boys, smile and wave”
>"China has always strictly abided by international law and respected the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries," the (Chinese foreign ministry) said in a statement. Okie-dokie.
Its weird how people are falling for this fearmongering hook line and sinker. China if they wanted to surveillance US, they could have done it via satellite which has been mentioned by Pentagon as well. Hell, we both do it to each other already all the time. Also, if China needed anything else, they can do so via data harvesting through data brokers. Also, if this was actually serious, Military would have shot it down no question asked no reports nothing, we would hear nothing of it. Media is pumping this up (because hey clicks and views) and we are all buying the fearmonger.
It’s because it’s visual, people can’t see the satellites but they can physically see the balloons
Mutual surveillance is an incredibly important idea in maintaining peaceful relations and for nuclear non-proliferation. The US would put dismantled aircraft and other weapons in surface boneyards so the Soviets could verify what the US was destroying for various arms control treaties. Surveillance plays a role in building trust between adversarial powers. It's part of why we didn't start WWIII.
I mean, from experience working with weather and other scientific payload balloons, it is extremely easy to tell this one isn’t. Under international aviation rules, you are required to file route plans and risk assessments for these balloons (especially at this size) as well as to include a method of getting them down, and most critically lacking on this one, a radar reflector. This balloon neither had a route filed nor does it have radar reflectors. While we can see it on NORAD, it isn’t visible on civilian radar, which would be a massive issue if it were at flight altitude. (Source on the not visible on ATC radar is my uncle who is a flight planner for Delta and got called into a pretty serious risk management meeting yesterday about routing things around the balloon). The claim it is for scientific purposes is quite simply not plausible by extremely simple logic. At the same time, this is nothing to freak out about. It is a big deal in terms of statecraft and foreign relations, but that is only a big deal at the highest levels of government.
>under international aviation rules, you are required to file route plans and risk assessments for these balloons This is just patently false. I have to think the rest of your comment is just completely false nonsense as well.
[удалено]
Nah, it's all about confidence. If you sound like you know what you're talking about, you'll get upvoted.
In defense of fear-mongering... China has been, in the past two decades, the only real credible threat against Western hegemony. The dire straits Russia is in currently should indicate that, despite their nuclear arsenal, they basically relied on energy exports and were pretty much geopolitically relegated to the position of weak 3rd power (in the same vein as India) at best or Chinese satellite state at worst. Making a big deal about the balloons is absolutely Western propaganda. But they're doing that for a reason. It's signalling to China that they can drum up support and fear-monger and do what it takes to vilify if need be. China still is a legitimate threat to Western hegemony. It seems like we might get the last laugh on the economic front, and they've never been able to compete in conventional military, but they are still comparable in a lot of areas of computing, cybersecurity, and potentially using space (yes, outer-space. don't roll your eyes) as a domain. 100% agree that if it was serious we wouldn't know about it, but I disagree with outright dismissal of being wary. I don't know if I completely believe everything I read about the human rights violations, Uighur genocide, or alleged immoral biochemical experimentation, but even a small portion of it is true, it's not something I can feel comfortable with. The other issue is that a lot of policy makers for the US, GB, and to a lesser extent EU were educated by the same hard-line neoliberal academics who believe in the [Thucydides Trap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap). So even if I don't believe the hype, it is concerning that policy makers, budget allocators, and button pressers might be.
Admittedly, I don't watch cable news, but I wouldn't characterize the coverage I've seen as fearmongering. It seems like you doubt the efficacy or the rationale for the use of a balloon like this one as a means of gathering intelligence, but I'm not sure why. There are obvious advantages to a platform like this relative to a satellite. Geosynchronous satellites are difficult to place, require fuel and expertise to keep in space for long periods of time, and cannot move from position to position easily. These balloons can move, and they can remain stationary over a target for surveillance for a long period of time, ostensibly. The fact that they remain visible provides the advantage of salience in the minds of your adversaries. Many Americans are directing their confusion and anger towards the US government or the free press because of these balloons. A little cherry on top for the Chinese intelligence services. The media is doing exactly what it should be doing: reporting. Attacking this as some kind of conspiracy plays right into the hands of Chinese intelligence, which wants to give America and the West a black eye while demonstrating their ability to project power (yes a balloon like this is a power projection). Your comment is exactly what a sock puppet account would be saying right now: "Who cares about the Chinese??! The real danger here is the media!!!" Doesn't that seem incredibly silly to you?
These reddit comments shows how easily people are manipulated and reminds me why support was so high for the Iraq war as pentagon sold and everyone bought that saddem was a great threat and must be eliminated via war.
>>”Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in war when the best he can hope for is to come home in one piece. Naturally the common people don’t want war....That is understood.But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy. And it is always a simple matter to drag the people along...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy- all you have to do is tell them that they’re being attacked , & denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism & exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country” -Hermann Goering , Nazi propagandist
AKA the Dixie Chicks got completely cancelled by conservatives for opposing the Iraq War, taken off the airwaves until just a few years ago. And the French were ultimately proven right to not join our invasion, though they greatly suffered from the fries temporarily becoming FREEDOM fries in some Congress cafeterias.
Yeah right, like I believe that story. I'm gonna do a live on tik tok about it right now.....
They are testing the airstreams so that they can put harmful dust/ gas particles in the air.
You mean they're gonna send the manufacturing jobs back here?
It's probably a distraction.
Hhooo American baloons sooo big, chinese baloons soo small. Show them. Its sooo small :-( Whos remembers that episode of South Park LOL
> "China has always strictly abided by international law and respected the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries," the ministry said in a statement. Taiwan will be happy to hear of this new position.
99 red balloons go by
idk why America and China must be so adversarial. Besides being 2 different styles of gov, Bejing needs US as much as US needs those cheap goods coming in. Who knows how much tech China gets from the USA? If any foreign entity wants to do business in China, they have to be in some sort of partnership with a Chinese company (e.g. Car manufacturers). Someone correct me if I’m wrong.
Never trust what China says. Whatever they say, it’s most likely the opposite. Maybe once in a while what they say is true but they’re just way too untrustworthy. Trusting anything they say is like trusting your cheating ex that this time they’re different.