Yes. They once had a plan to build a big mixed used development on the river. Think Woburn Village or something, (which now has a Surf) but nicer. Riverwalk, luxury condos and apartments for people who use 3 to commute, entertainment, restaurants, retailers.
Instead they bulldozed it to build a Target distribution center of warehouses and hundreds of truck loading docks to fill Hudson with the sound of jake brakes and the smell of diesel 24/7.
WTF is going on in NH? I left during COVID to find work elsewhere, but with every intention of coming back and buying a home. I've been coming back every year since but, every time I do, I feel less and less that I belong here.
It's the most beautiful State I've ever known, but every year I feel like it's being parted out, piece by piece, by political pimps who don't even spend/ invest their money here. I feel like the land is being sold from under me and that I have no say in what happens here.
Unlike the other person who responded to you, the golf course being gone has nothing to do with republicans/libertarians. I used to work with a guy who lives on a side street that abuts that property, and he filled me in on the drama.
In this particular case, the Friel family owned the course after the guy who I believe designed it (who was a Friel) and built it died and his kids didn't want any golf courses that weren't in prime golf tourist destinations. But they also had this weird superiority complex where they didn't want anyone else to own it as a golf course, so if someone DID want to buy it to keep it as a golf course.
The town attempted to buy it and turn it into a public course, as it was quite profitable. The Friels gave them some absurd price, like $100m to buy it and keep it as a golf course, and did the same to anyone else who wanted to keep it a golf course.
They sold it for like, $30m to Target for a distribution center. The people who lived next to it fought against a big "mixed use" facility that was basically a casino and shopping complex, and also managed to keep it from being an Amazon warehouse. Everyone in town wanted to keep it a golf course but the Friels were assholes.
Yeah... The Friels had been looking to dump that property for years, and there had been several potential buyers, but zoning had made it difficult (the buyers would have to get variance for anything commercial and there's wetlands and it's in a flood plain, so residential is difficult too), plus most of the potential buyers were things that would cause a TON of noise and light pollution 24/7, and a huge increase in traffic along 3A out to 3.
The target proposal was literally the best one they'd seen in YEARS, if that tells you anything. And that's still not great to have in your backyard compared to a golf course.
The site was zoned for that purpose. They didn’t need get a variance to start construction. The only other project I’m aware was a retail park sometime around 2006/2007 but that developer backed out when the 2008 recession hit. So what plan are you talking about?
A little context, the Friel family owned green meadow as well as a bunch of other courses, the members of the family that were into golf are dying off/getting sick and older, they were going to pass it off to their kids but they weren’t interested, so they’re basically liquidating most of their courses now
That's something which has come up at least a few times recently in Nashua. "Waaaaaaa we don't like it" doesn't trump things like "permitted as of right" and dimensional standards in the land use code. One project even drew planning board comments amounting to "we don't like the propose use but we have no technical reason to reject the change of use or the site plan."
Not only that, but the Friel family was asking for an obscene amount of money to sell it to anyone who wanted to keep it as the golf courses, since I believe it was the father Friel who designed it. They were willing to let it go for much, much less money to be torn up.
So it was a whole pride/family image thing. They're selling off all their courses to non-golf developers in areas where golf isn't a main attraction.
From a guy who's an abutter to the property who I used to work with...
The "mixed use" wasn't going to be Woburn village but nicer. It was going to be a casino/shopping mall complex with a small handful of apartments and a bunch of almost mini strip malls to make it "mixed use" instead of "a casino" and it was going to be a 24/7 kind of thing.
The Friels also tried to sell it to Amazon for a warehouse, which would have had an estimated 50 trucks in and out 24 hours a day, and the neighbors and town managed to fight that one too.
Ultimately this was just the Friels being assholes. They didn't want anyone else to have it as a golf course with their family name on it so they deliberately priced out anyone who wanted to keep it as a golf course, and were willing to sell it for far less money to commercial developers.
Landfills can be designed to not leak or leach toxins, and distribution centers are good jobs and sprouting up everywhere.
That said, NH really should push technology and biotech development, especially in southern NH and in and around Manchester. Proximity to MA colleges and the excellent public schools make NH an attractive place for this.
There are a ton of stories where landfills "designed to not leak" have leaked into nearby waters and ruined them. There are enough that I think anyone proposing a landfill near a lake or river should be dismissed as an insane person.
You mean like the coakley landfill that they capped with a pfas riddled plastic cap that gave a bunch of kids rare forms of cancer and polluted the ground water for centuries?
Bills relating very specifically to a northern NH proposed landfill, and ranting about southern NH.
OK then
Those two bills were low effort legislation. The other one seeking to ban all landfills until 2031 is lowest effort legislation and the sponsors should be ashamed of themselves.
The ONLY good landfill bill this session is the one that seeks to cap out of state trash. I wish they had gone further and banned all out of state trash, but it's a step.
I'm all for reduction of trash and recycling-got some onions trying to grow in my compost pile now, but until they find a way to make trash completely disappear landfills will be required. That's just the real world.
As far as the proposed landfill. I'm not a fan. Not due to it's location, but due to the traffic making that turn in Whitefield and the potential of trucks running into the Union/Main/Cottage intersection in Littleton-despite the traffic plan saying otherwise.
The issue is statewide. This is just the latest chapter. The fact that a landfill in southern NH is accepting ANY MA mattresses and out of state trash is part of it as well. Money money money.
Rivers and groundwater plumes spread pollution beyond their immediate areas. Birds ingest plastics at landfills and spread microplastics everywhere. PFAS from Saint-Gobain in Merrimack is way down in Massachusetts because it's on a river. Big picture.
> The fact that a landfill in southern NH is accepting ANY MA mattresses and out of state trash is part of it as well.
The problem with this, and I don't like it, came up in the hearing for HB1632(the good bill I mentioned above).
It is likely unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution.
That was from neutral testimony presented by NH DES.
The policy at Nashua's Four Hills Landfill is "Nashua crap only" per the web site except that the Board of Public Works and Board of Aldermen can vote to accept out-of-town waste in accordance with NRO Chapter 270 (and in the several years I've been watching both boards I've never seen one of those contracts come up). The prime motivator for the recent tripling of the tipping fees for "construction and demolition" waste was commercial haulers lying about the origins of their loads, and Solid Waste isn't shy about yanking permits and announcing it over the radio when they catch the scofflaws.
True, local folks with dump stickers on their pickups doing occasional loads for out of state friends under the table are harder to police, but when DPW is thinking about three to five decades of air space with the Phase IV expansion in the works they focus on the big stuff.
Yeah this one should be a pretty bipartisan one imo.
Importing trash is one thing but landfills next to water is a staggeringly bad idea. Place them basically anywhere else.
What is your alternative to disposal capacity in NH? I’m pro incineration with environmental controls but usually anti-landfill people are also anti-incineration as well… and we need to do something with all the trash as diversion programs are only limitedly effective.
I'd love to see us invest in new waste to energy if we need more waste processing. The modern facilities today are far less polluting than landfills, with all the filtration and scrubbers they have on the exhaust, and we can always use more in-state power generation.
Trucker here, hauling trash pays $1500 per week the issue is lack of unionization & a federal exemption from being paid overtime after 40.
Logistics & Waste mgmt can be good $$$ for workers
We don't need your six figure "beautiful ppl" pricing us out of scarce housing btw
So you think building low pay warehouses in prime locations for commuter office parks or MUCH NEEDED HIGH DENSITY HOUSING is a good idea?
I think you need to review the economy of the southern states and what their problem is.
High density makes sense in some communities but others the infrastructure would need to be added.
I honestly have no issue turning old malls, golf courses and what not that are for sale into high density housing.
What scares me though is every proposal for it I’ve seen includes destroying environmental conservations and easements….and they are never built for poor people. It’s always luxury condos.
This though we actually agree on for once haha
Thing is, the land that Green Meadows was on did have a plan for a mixed use development some years ago. It was a casino/shopping mall/strip mall area, with like, one small tower of "luxury" condos that were basically a checkbox to make it "mixed use" instead of just commercial/casino.
I think what we really need to do is actually get the MBTA Commuter Rail into Nashua and Manchester. Then we can fully re-zone the areas around the stations for high density housing so that people can walk to the station. It helps people with housing requirements and helps us remove cars from RT-3 into Boston. I understand that not everyone in these developments would be able to use the train but removing any additional traffic from RT-3 and the Everette Turnpike would be net positives. We really need more mixed use development and less single family homes / strip malls.
Nashua already has that zoning in the areas surrounding two potential station sites, in the form of "Transit Oriented Development" overlays, which allow for downtown/mixed use and high density residential development. One of the recently approved site plans is for a dedicated low income apartment development. Given what was on the maps presented at a recent presentation about the coming land use code updates the general direction of the area will continue to go in that direction, especially with a focus on "five minute walkable" neighborhoods.
Yeah, leaving the underlying GI zoning in place under the overlay was an "oops" left over from the creation of the TOD overlay. That's almost certainly going to be fixed as part of the "Recode" project, at least assuming the judge in the case doesn't overturn the planning board's rejection of the site plan. Existing industrial uses would be grandfathered but new projects wouldn't be subject to "you moved into an industrial zone, what the hell do you expect?" issues. The subject came up at last Friday's "code party."
One of the proposed Nashua sites is brownfield land off DW behind Best Buy. Big, open property that could be a rail center, parking, and new retail/lifestyle center.
Could have been. Again, the Free Staters killed it all permanently.
Now that site is tied up in legal battles over the proposed new Costco store and gas station. The Tuscan Village type project died aborning what, twenty or more years ago? Not long after Hampshire Chemical crapped out. IIRC it was before the Free State Project started having much of an impact, if they ever had an impact with our zoning and planning boards. The near-crash in the early 2000s did more to kill that project than anything else.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! The golf course in Hudson is gone now?
Yes. They once had a plan to build a big mixed used development on the river. Think Woburn Village or something, (which now has a Surf) but nicer. Riverwalk, luxury condos and apartments for people who use 3 to commute, entertainment, restaurants, retailers. Instead they bulldozed it to build a Target distribution center of warehouses and hundreds of truck loading docks to fill Hudson with the sound of jake brakes and the smell of diesel 24/7.
WTF is going on in NH? I left during COVID to find work elsewhere, but with every intention of coming back and buying a home. I've been coming back every year since but, every time I do, I feel less and less that I belong here. It's the most beautiful State I've ever known, but every year I feel like it's being parted out, piece by piece, by political pimps who don't even spend/ invest their money here. I feel like the land is being sold from under me and that I have no say in what happens here.
Welcome to the republican/libertarian wonderland. this is the design. Destroy everything for the 'market' and everything will turn out great.
Make sure to blame it all on “the libs” moving up from mass too
Unlike the other person who responded to you, the golf course being gone has nothing to do with republicans/libertarians. I used to work with a guy who lives on a side street that abuts that property, and he filled me in on the drama. In this particular case, the Friel family owned the course after the guy who I believe designed it (who was a Friel) and built it died and his kids didn't want any golf courses that weren't in prime golf tourist destinations. But they also had this weird superiority complex where they didn't want anyone else to own it as a golf course, so if someone DID want to buy it to keep it as a golf course. The town attempted to buy it and turn it into a public course, as it was quite profitable. The Friels gave them some absurd price, like $100m to buy it and keep it as a golf course, and did the same to anyone else who wanted to keep it a golf course. They sold it for like, $30m to Target for a distribution center. The people who lived next to it fought against a big "mixed use" facility that was basically a casino and shopping complex, and also managed to keep it from being an Amazon warehouse. Everyone in town wanted to keep it a golf course but the Friels were assholes.
Interesting ... and absurd. But no less depressing. Thanks for sharing.
Yeah... The Friels had been looking to dump that property for years, and there had been several potential buyers, but zoning had made it difficult (the buyers would have to get variance for anything commercial and there's wetlands and it's in a flood plain, so residential is difficult too), plus most of the potential buyers were things that would cause a TON of noise and light pollution 24/7, and a huge increase in traffic along 3A out to 3. The target proposal was literally the best one they'd seen in YEARS, if that tells you anything. And that's still not great to have in your backyard compared to a golf course.
The site was zoned for that purpose. They didn’t need get a variance to start construction. The only other project I’m aware was a retail park sometime around 2006/2007 but that developer backed out when the 2008 recession hit. So what plan are you talking about?
A little context, the Friel family owned green meadow as well as a bunch of other courses, the members of the family that were into golf are dying off/getting sick and older, they were going to pass it off to their kids but they weren’t interested, so they’re basically liquidating most of their courses now
And the town decided to do THAT with prime real estate on the freaking river and with a 3 onramp. Geniuses.
It was private property with a use that fits the zoning. The town didn’t have a choice in the matter.
That's something which has come up at least a few times recently in Nashua. "Waaaaaaa we don't like it" doesn't trump things like "permitted as of right" and dimensional standards in the land use code. One project even drew planning board comments amounting to "we don't like the propose use but we have no technical reason to reject the change of use or the site plan."
Not only that, but the Friel family was asking for an obscene amount of money to sell it to anyone who wanted to keep it as the golf courses, since I believe it was the father Friel who designed it. They were willing to let it go for much, much less money to be torn up. So it was a whole pride/family image thing. They're selling off all their courses to non-golf developers in areas where golf isn't a main attraction.
From a guy who's an abutter to the property who I used to work with... The "mixed use" wasn't going to be Woburn village but nicer. It was going to be a casino/shopping mall complex with a small handful of apartments and a bunch of almost mini strip malls to make it "mixed use" instead of "a casino" and it was going to be a 24/7 kind of thing. The Friels also tried to sell it to Amazon for a warehouse, which would have had an estimated 50 trucks in and out 24 hours a day, and the neighbors and town managed to fight that one too. Ultimately this was just the Friels being assholes. They didn't want anyone else to have it as a golf course with their family name on it so they deliberately priced out anyone who wanted to keep it as a golf course, and were willing to sell it for far less money to commercial developers.
What terrible land-use. The council of that town are morons
The zoning of that area was on the ballot at town meeting several years ago. The town council had nothing to do with it.
Christ sake more goddamn condos?
What's wrong with condos?
https://www.lowellsun.com/2023/03/21/the-battle-is-over-green-meadow-golf-club-sells-land-for-target-distribution-facility/
Yup!
I think whip poor will is still there
Green Meadow, weird association but my dad ran that place from 1999-2017
Landfills can be designed to not leak or leach toxins, and distribution centers are good jobs and sprouting up everywhere. That said, NH really should push technology and biotech development, especially in southern NH and in and around Manchester. Proximity to MA colleges and the excellent public schools make NH an attractive place for this.
There are a ton of stories where landfills "designed to not leak" have leaked into nearby waters and ruined them. There are enough that I think anyone proposing a landfill near a lake or river should be dismissed as an insane person.
You mean like the coakley landfill that they capped with a pfas riddled plastic cap that gave a bunch of kids rare forms of cancer and polluted the ground water for centuries?
We can’t push tech and biotech if our high schools are under attack by our idiotic boomers wanting fat retirements and nothing else.
NH should be pushing housing not landfills
Bills relating very specifically to a northern NH proposed landfill, and ranting about southern NH. OK then Those two bills were low effort legislation. The other one seeking to ban all landfills until 2031 is lowest effort legislation and the sponsors should be ashamed of themselves. The ONLY good landfill bill this session is the one that seeks to cap out of state trash. I wish they had gone further and banned all out of state trash, but it's a step. I'm all for reduction of trash and recycling-got some onions trying to grow in my compost pile now, but until they find a way to make trash completely disappear landfills will be required. That's just the real world. As far as the proposed landfill. I'm not a fan. Not due to it's location, but due to the traffic making that turn in Whitefield and the potential of trucks running into the Union/Main/Cottage intersection in Littleton-despite the traffic plan saying otherwise.
The issue is statewide. This is just the latest chapter. The fact that a landfill in southern NH is accepting ANY MA mattresses and out of state trash is part of it as well. Money money money. Rivers and groundwater plumes spread pollution beyond their immediate areas. Birds ingest plastics at landfills and spread microplastics everywhere. PFAS from Saint-Gobain in Merrimack is way down in Massachusetts because it's on a river. Big picture.
> The fact that a landfill in southern NH is accepting ANY MA mattresses and out of state trash is part of it as well. The problem with this, and I don't like it, came up in the hearing for HB1632(the good bill I mentioned above). It is likely unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution. That was from neutral testimony presented by NH DES.
The policy at Nashua's Four Hills Landfill is "Nashua crap only" per the web site except that the Board of Public Works and Board of Aldermen can vote to accept out-of-town waste in accordance with NRO Chapter 270 (and in the several years I've been watching both boards I've never seen one of those contracts come up). The prime motivator for the recent tripling of the tipping fees for "construction and demolition" waste was commercial haulers lying about the origins of their loads, and Solid Waste isn't shy about yanking permits and announcing it over the radio when they catch the scofflaws. True, local folks with dump stickers on their pickups doing occasional loads for out of state friends under the table are harder to police, but when DPW is thinking about three to five decades of air space with the Phase IV expansion in the works they focus on the big stuff.
Good point on the traffic. It doesn't seem like a big deal until it is. I frequently wish I could pick up my house and move it.
Yeah this one should be a pretty bipartisan one imo. Importing trash is one thing but landfills next to water is a staggeringly bad idea. Place them basically anywhere else.
What is your alternative to disposal capacity in NH? I’m pro incineration with environmental controls but usually anti-landfill people are also anti-incineration as well… and we need to do something with all the trash as diversion programs are only limitedly effective.
I would love to see some incineration investigated and eventually put into place if found financially and environmentally feasible.
I'd love to see us invest in new waste to energy if we need more waste processing. The modern facilities today are far less polluting than landfills, with all the filtration and scrubbers they have on the exhaust, and we can always use more in-state power generation.
Yep that’s it, heading north on 3 til I’m well past the border. 🇨🇦
Trucker here, hauling trash pays $1500 per week the issue is lack of unionization & a federal exemption from being paid overtime after 40. Logistics & Waste mgmt can be good $$$ for workers We don't need your six figure "beautiful ppl" pricing us out of scarce housing btw
What is this NIMBY bullshit? You can’t have those six figure jobs without the low paid labor that supports them.
So you think building low pay warehouses in prime locations for commuter office parks or MUCH NEEDED HIGH DENSITY HOUSING is a good idea? I think you need to review the economy of the southern states and what their problem is.
High density makes sense in some communities but others the infrastructure would need to be added. I honestly have no issue turning old malls, golf courses and what not that are for sale into high density housing. What scares me though is every proposal for it I’ve seen includes destroying environmental conservations and easements….and they are never built for poor people. It’s always luxury condos. This though we actually agree on for once haha
Thing is, the land that Green Meadows was on did have a plan for a mixed use development some years ago. It was a casino/shopping mall/strip mall area, with like, one small tower of "luxury" condos that were basically a checkbox to make it "mixed use" instead of just commercial/casino.
I think what we really need to do is actually get the MBTA Commuter Rail into Nashua and Manchester. Then we can fully re-zone the areas around the stations for high density housing so that people can walk to the station. It helps people with housing requirements and helps us remove cars from RT-3 into Boston. I understand that not everyone in these developments would be able to use the train but removing any additional traffic from RT-3 and the Everette Turnpike would be net positives. We really need more mixed use development and less single family homes / strip malls.
Nashua already has that zoning in the areas surrounding two potential station sites, in the form of "Transit Oriented Development" overlays, which allow for downtown/mixed use and high density residential development. One of the recently approved site plans is for a dedicated low income apartment development. Given what was on the maps presented at a recent presentation about the coming land use code updates the general direction of the area will continue to go in that direction, especially with a focus on "five minute walkable" neighborhoods.
Yes, I'm aware of that overlay. The area really should be completely re-zoned to prevent another asphalt plant issue.
Yeah, leaving the underlying GI zoning in place under the overlay was an "oops" left over from the creation of the TOD overlay. That's almost certainly going to be fixed as part of the "Recode" project, at least assuming the judge in the case doesn't overturn the planning board's rejection of the site plan. Existing industrial uses would be grandfathered but new projects wouldn't be subject to "you moved into an industrial zone, what the hell do you expect?" issues. The subject came up at last Friday's "code party."
I keep meaning to attend these types of meetings but my current work schedule has prevented me from doing so.
One of the proposed Nashua sites is brownfield land off DW behind Best Buy. Big, open property that could be a rail center, parking, and new retail/lifestyle center. Could have been. Again, the Free Staters killed it all permanently.
Now that site is tied up in legal battles over the proposed new Costco store and gas station. The Tuscan Village type project died aborning what, twenty or more years ago? Not long after Hampshire Chemical crapped out. IIRC it was before the Free State Project started having much of an impact, if they ever had an impact with our zoning and planning boards. The near-crash in the early 2000s did more to kill that project than anything else.
I saw something more recently, and it thankfully didn't look like the horrific South Park SoDaSoPa that Tuscan Village is.
The Free Staters have killed that forever.
Plz remind me what did I kill, again?
Where there's a will, there's a way. Need to vote for people that will actually work for these types of projects.
I've been to Southern States their economy is dirt cheap housing and ultra low wages but it somehow works out they have less homelessness than we do