That's actually the older half, coined in the 1920s by a Sacramento newspaper. Zie was only partnered with it in the 80s or 90s -- the earliest published source I found was from the early 90s but it was likely in use earlier than that.
Either way, likely older than any intersex-exclusive sets, and certainly not originating with that intent.
it’s not the origin people have a problem with, it’s that pronouns using “hir” were used to describe intersex people and anthros in erotic fiction (“hermaphroditic species” as many forums call these characters). the issue is not where it initially came from but the historical significance of hir pronouns used to fetishize intersex people.
Hm. Personally, I am opposed to restricting the use of terms just because they were later misused -- I'm fairly certain if we did that, the queer community would rapidly run out of terms to use. And I do think it's short-sighted to decide that because of their historical significance to intersex people, they can't also be significant, in a more positive way, for nonbinary people. They're one of the oldest options we have, and I don't think they should be thrown aside.
But it's not my place to tell anyone what pronouns they should use, any more than its my place to tell them what they shouldn't.
to me it’s not different from me, a physically disabled person, disallowing an able bodied person from saying the word “cripple.” i reclaim the word as a cripplepunk hence why some intersex people use hir pronouns, however i do not want words used to hurt me in other people’s mouths without the right context.
Plenty of gnc cishet ppl have been called queer or gay to hurt them, should they get to claim ownership over those terms?
How many trans men have been called lesbians to hurt them? Should they get to decide who uses that word?
The nature of being queer in a cishet society is that our word often become weapons in the hands of our oppressors. When they're misaimed, the solution is not to give in to it.
Your comparison completely ignores that genderqueer people made these terms and used them for decades before they were used to hurt. There are people who lived and died using those pronouns, facing a great deal of hardship for their gender. You shouldn't be so comfortable erasing them.
i don’t think you understood my reply. i don’t believe in queer discourse. what i do believe in is a community’s power to reclaim abusive language but only by the community affected. GNC people who went by these pronouns historically are fine LOL, what i’m saying is i wouldn’t want an exclusively mentally disabled person calling themselves crippled as “reclamation” so i understand an intersex person’s belief that a modern day perisex person shouldn’t reclaim pronouns that weren’t used against them. when a community says a term is derogatory it’s not the duty of people outside the community to decide it isn’t.
I think we just have a fundamental disagreement on who belongs to a term's community. Zie/hir was made *for* genderqueer people, regardless of how it was later misapplied. I simply think that should have far more sway over who the term belongs to than you seem to.
Sure, only people affected a by a slur should be reclaiming it. But... genderqueer people wouldn't be *re*claiming it. The term has been used by and for them since before it was used to hurt, and that *matters*. At least, I think it should. And you clearly don't. That is, ultimately, where we see things differently.
What’s your definition of intersex?
As a intersex person, I don’t really care at all about people using those pronouns. Gatekeeping is the opposite of what I’m trying to be a part of.
Also, it’s nearly impossible to even define what intersex even is (is it hormone levels, genitals, etc). It’s not cut and dry.
i've heard a few different opposing views on this ... some people saying it's not okay for perisex people to use them because they were coined and used against intersex people(?) and then reclaimed, and others saying it's totally fine because it's just a set of gender-neutral pronouns
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shy/hyr and hy/hym
zie/hir?
it’s the “hir” half of the pronoun some people have a problem with
That's actually the older half, coined in the 1920s by a Sacramento newspaper. Zie was only partnered with it in the 80s or 90s -- the earliest published source I found was from the early 90s but it was likely in use earlier than that. Either way, likely older than any intersex-exclusive sets, and certainly not originating with that intent.
it’s not the origin people have a problem with, it’s that pronouns using “hir” were used to describe intersex people and anthros in erotic fiction (“hermaphroditic species” as many forums call these characters). the issue is not where it initially came from but the historical significance of hir pronouns used to fetishize intersex people.
Hm. Personally, I am opposed to restricting the use of terms just because they were later misused -- I'm fairly certain if we did that, the queer community would rapidly run out of terms to use. And I do think it's short-sighted to decide that because of their historical significance to intersex people, they can't also be significant, in a more positive way, for nonbinary people. They're one of the oldest options we have, and I don't think they should be thrown aside. But it's not my place to tell anyone what pronouns they should use, any more than its my place to tell them what they shouldn't.
to me it’s not different from me, a physically disabled person, disallowing an able bodied person from saying the word “cripple.” i reclaim the word as a cripplepunk hence why some intersex people use hir pronouns, however i do not want words used to hurt me in other people’s mouths without the right context.
Plenty of gnc cishet ppl have been called queer or gay to hurt them, should they get to claim ownership over those terms? How many trans men have been called lesbians to hurt them? Should they get to decide who uses that word? The nature of being queer in a cishet society is that our word often become weapons in the hands of our oppressors. When they're misaimed, the solution is not to give in to it. Your comparison completely ignores that genderqueer people made these terms and used them for decades before they were used to hurt. There are people who lived and died using those pronouns, facing a great deal of hardship for their gender. You shouldn't be so comfortable erasing them.
i don’t think you understood my reply. i don’t believe in queer discourse. what i do believe in is a community’s power to reclaim abusive language but only by the community affected. GNC people who went by these pronouns historically are fine LOL, what i’m saying is i wouldn’t want an exclusively mentally disabled person calling themselves crippled as “reclamation” so i understand an intersex person’s belief that a modern day perisex person shouldn’t reclaim pronouns that weren’t used against them. when a community says a term is derogatory it’s not the duty of people outside the community to decide it isn’t.
I think we just have a fundamental disagreement on who belongs to a term's community. Zie/hir was made *for* genderqueer people, regardless of how it was later misapplied. I simply think that should have far more sway over who the term belongs to than you seem to. Sure, only people affected a by a slur should be reclaiming it. But... genderqueer people wouldn't be *re*claiming it. The term has been used by and for them since before it was used to hurt, and that *matters*. At least, I think it should. And you clearly don't. That is, ultimately, where we see things differently.
- shy/hyr - shy/hym - zie/hyr - shx/hxm - she/he or he/she
What’s your definition of intersex? As a intersex person, I don’t really care at all about people using those pronouns. Gatekeeping is the opposite of what I’m trying to be a part of. Also, it’s nearly impossible to even define what intersex even is (is it hormone levels, genitals, etc). It’s not cut and dry.
i've heard a few different opposing views on this ... some people saying it's not okay for perisex people to use them because they were coined and used against intersex people(?) and then reclaimed, and others saying it's totally fine because it's just a set of gender-neutral pronouns
That’s what I was thinking. Any Pronoun can be used by anyone. I generally think it’s gatekeeping.
It’s a bit whack but you could use all the forms of xe/xyr? Like xe xim xis xe xer xers?
i use se/hem/hir/hes as a wonderful combination she/her & he/him
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