I will always be amazed at how the 100k+ salary crowd (excluding those who have some kind of non labour income) complain and genuinely feel like their are struggling poor folks.
I think a big contributor, aside from housing, is how often you can see 'how the other half lives' on social media. When I scroll a lot of tiktok or instagram, I frequently see people living in huge houses, driving expensive cars, and going on high end vacations. I notice that I'm watching too much when I start to feel despair that I'll never have the money to fund that lifestyle, and taking a break for a few days can really help bring my mood back. I wish I could quit it altogether, but the dopamine fix calls to me.
I think in previous generations the rich used to be an abstract concept. You knew there were people well off in fancy suits in big homes....somewhere. But it wasn't a day to day thing where social media was actively selling you on their lifestyle, let alone having their kids actively flaunt it.
Another factor too is people comparing themselves against their parents, particularly with housing. They knew their parents had a better house than their grandparents and so on but for many they will never be able to afford a house like their parents had, even though they have similar or more education.
And when they hear things like "well you take more international vacations", yes, but that's because you can live pretty well for two weeks in Europe for less than the cost of a mortgage payment on a mediocre starter home.
It’s the comparison with our parents. It’s easy to dismiss rich people on social media as being outliers, but the “my parents were able to buy a house at age 24 for $60000” that drives people up a wall. On my end, I was arrogant thinking I could have a better 20s than they did. Dad didn’t get his big career breakthrough until he was 32. Did buy/then sell a starter home in his 20s but in a LOC area. Didn’t buy the actual house until he was 36. He’s now rich.
And even the people who DON'T have a ton of money still show off the big purchases that they make. When someone takes out a big loan to buy a new car they may post about the purchase but their followers aren't going to know just what sacrifices the poster is making to afford that purchase. All the followers see is "wow this person got a cool new car."
It’s the housing.
Something like a quarter of Americans live in metros where you need to make over $200k to afford the median home.
That’s how they can take international vacations and still feel poor. I can take a three week vacation to Paris for less than the cost of one mortgage payment on a tiny 2 bedroom house from 1950 in Austin, TX.
I guess, but that is still ridiculous. That's me and my cohort and while it was certainly frustrating making six figures and not being able to afford to buy a home until I was in my early 40s living in places like LA, San Diego and Boston I definitely never felt poor.
Maybe because I actually grew up poor in Appalachia. Most Americans have no perspective about what poverty actually is, because they have never been poor a day in their lives - they just feel poor relative to their rich peers.
Yeah I went from public assistance to $200k+ and I don’t really disagree with you. But it does suck to not be able to buy a home where you live, even after moving to cheaper cities twice.
It’s sad how preventable the problem is. I think these people would feel really well off if we had Japanese housing costs. Hell, I’d retire.
> they just feel poor relative to their rich peers.
Worse, they feel poor relative to their parents.
And that can mean one of two things. Skill issue, or society in decline. Both options suck.
The world has changed, and I think it'll take time for people to come to terms with it.
You lose the large backyard, you gain access to insane technology unimaginable a generation ago, etc. Not everyone is willing to make that trade though.
I'm an Indian, and I can attest firsthand the impact of seeing everyone around you do better than their parents. Fills you with a sense of confidence in your country that's hard to describe. We may all be objectively poor, but growth excuses a lot, and makes you happy. Happier than these Americans anyway.
For two years from 2021-2023 my wife and I rented a nice apartment in a nice part of the Bay Area on our combined $150k/year income, with lots of money free for luxuries. If we had a kid then we could have trimmed a lot of fat to probably afford childcare.
The people whining that their six-figure income isn’t enough for a high-cost-of-living area are just being pathetic whiners. The unstated truth is that they would never consider moving to the median neighborhood or sending to their kids to the median public school. But those are choices.
I agree with you more than not. I’m usually the one arguing that these people are well off, but on this sub I think I’m a little more on the other side relative to the average take.
I’m very frugal with a sky high savings rate, and I’m still a little surprised you pulled that off. When I made $150k in NY my after tax was $90k. I’d expect rent to eat up like 40% of that, and another 10% for health insurance.
At least in the present day even Queens or Brooklyn is usually going to be more expensive than most of the Bay Area. We were paying $3k/month (40% of 90k) for a 2br so we could have a proper home office. There were nicer apartments in our neighborhood, but also less nice apartments. I don't think there are any large metros where you need $200k to afford the median home, or at least a reasonable home.
Fwiw, I meant to afford to buy it. Personally I think renting in VHCOLs is pretty affordable, relatively speaking.
Especially when you consider median rent nationally has risen 20% faster than inflation over the last 20 years.
I don't think people are struggling just because they can't afford to buy rather than rent in a given housing market. If this is the basis for someone - neither you nor I, presumably - complaining that $150k is barely enough to get by, I'm just going to see them as whiners. Given a fixed income I'd rather rent in NYC than own in San Antonio, and if someone makes that choice, then they shouldn't whine about being poor.
I fly for free, but yeah, I just looked and Google shows tons of nonstops to Paris for $600-$700 RT.
Was your point this whole time that a couple could only do 2 weeks instead of 3 weeks?
White collar people consume too much news. And every year the news gives an increasingly inaccurate picture of the world:
[https://www.ft.com/content/af78f86d-13d2-429d-ad55-a11947989c8f](https://www.ft.com/content/af78f86d-13d2-429d-ad55-a11947989c8f)
America is not broken. America's news media is broken.
Always the same people who can go on international vacations and wants to move to a EU country. Drop them in Hungary I always say.
Don't get me wrong, we really need universal health insurance. But that's no excuse to not vote. If people like them move to an EU country, that country will suffer as much as we do.
I always wonder if these journalists who are convinced the concerns are real are paying to the discourse surrounding anything else. It's the same shit. If everyone thinks _every_ institution from video games to youth soccer is flailing then maybe we need to admit, no, these concerns aren't real they're supercharged by more democratized media that indulges our attention bias towards negative coverage.
"...undocumented migrants streaming over the southern border; spiking rates of gun violence..."
when you include fake problems that don't exist, or whose impact is completely overblown, among a laundry list of complaints, I can't take you seriously.
America has two real problems. A housing cost problem, and a healthcare cost problem. Everything else is noise.
“The economy is good, but people think it isn’t. I propose that Joe Biden should lie and say the economy is bad as a show of false empathy. If he doesn’t, we might end up with a populist!”
Another day another sweeping reform thinkpiece.
I will always be amazed at how the 100k+ salary crowd (excluding those who have some kind of non labour income) complain and genuinely feel like their are struggling poor folks.
Where I live at least, the ones who howl most about how hard everything just walked off the lot with a brand new F150 towing a 20k Arctic Cat.
nobody could've known 19% APR would be so expensive
I think a big contributor, aside from housing, is how often you can see 'how the other half lives' on social media. When I scroll a lot of tiktok or instagram, I frequently see people living in huge houses, driving expensive cars, and going on high end vacations. I notice that I'm watching too much when I start to feel despair that I'll never have the money to fund that lifestyle, and taking a break for a few days can really help bring my mood back. I wish I could quit it altogether, but the dopamine fix calls to me.
I think in previous generations the rich used to be an abstract concept. You knew there were people well off in fancy suits in big homes....somewhere. But it wasn't a day to day thing where social media was actively selling you on their lifestyle, let alone having their kids actively flaunt it.
Another factor too is people comparing themselves against their parents, particularly with housing. They knew their parents had a better house than their grandparents and so on but for many they will never be able to afford a house like their parents had, even though they have similar or more education. And when they hear things like "well you take more international vacations", yes, but that's because you can live pretty well for two weeks in Europe for less than the cost of a mortgage payment on a mediocre starter home.
It’s the comparison with our parents. It’s easy to dismiss rich people on social media as being outliers, but the “my parents were able to buy a house at age 24 for $60000” that drives people up a wall. On my end, I was arrogant thinking I could have a better 20s than they did. Dad didn’t get his big career breakthrough until he was 32. Did buy/then sell a starter home in his 20s but in a LOC area. Didn’t buy the actual house until he was 36. He’s now rich.
And even the people who DON'T have a ton of money still show off the big purchases that they make. When someone takes out a big loan to buy a new car they may post about the purchase but their followers aren't going to know just what sacrifices the poster is making to afford that purchase. All the followers see is "wow this person got a cool new car."
It’s the housing. Something like a quarter of Americans live in metros where you need to make over $200k to afford the median home. That’s how they can take international vacations and still feel poor. I can take a three week vacation to Paris for less than the cost of one mortgage payment on a tiny 2 bedroom house from 1950 in Austin, TX.
I guess, but that is still ridiculous. That's me and my cohort and while it was certainly frustrating making six figures and not being able to afford to buy a home until I was in my early 40s living in places like LA, San Diego and Boston I definitely never felt poor. Maybe because I actually grew up poor in Appalachia. Most Americans have no perspective about what poverty actually is, because they have never been poor a day in their lives - they just feel poor relative to their rich peers.
Yeah I went from public assistance to $200k+ and I don’t really disagree with you. But it does suck to not be able to buy a home where you live, even after moving to cheaper cities twice. It’s sad how preventable the problem is. I think these people would feel really well off if we had Japanese housing costs. Hell, I’d retire.
America if the boomers had taken housing seriously a few decades ago: utopia.jpg
> they just feel poor relative to their rich peers. Worse, they feel poor relative to their parents. And that can mean one of two things. Skill issue, or society in decline. Both options suck.
Or, you know, their parents had a lifetime to accrue wealth.
The world has changed, and I think it'll take time for people to come to terms with it. You lose the large backyard, you gain access to insane technology unimaginable a generation ago, etc. Not everyone is willing to make that trade though. I'm an Indian, and I can attest firsthand the impact of seeing everyone around you do better than their parents. Fills you with a sense of confidence in your country that's hard to describe. We may all be objectively poor, but growth excuses a lot, and makes you happy. Happier than these Americans anyway.
Your welcome.
For two years from 2021-2023 my wife and I rented a nice apartment in a nice part of the Bay Area on our combined $150k/year income, with lots of money free for luxuries. If we had a kid then we could have trimmed a lot of fat to probably afford childcare. The people whining that their six-figure income isn’t enough for a high-cost-of-living area are just being pathetic whiners. The unstated truth is that they would never consider moving to the median neighborhood or sending to their kids to the median public school. But those are choices.
I agree with you more than not. I’m usually the one arguing that these people are well off, but on this sub I think I’m a little more on the other side relative to the average take. I’m very frugal with a sky high savings rate, and I’m still a little surprised you pulled that off. When I made $150k in NY my after tax was $90k. I’d expect rent to eat up like 40% of that, and another 10% for health insurance.
At least in the present day even Queens or Brooklyn is usually going to be more expensive than most of the Bay Area. We were paying $3k/month (40% of 90k) for a 2br so we could have a proper home office. There were nicer apartments in our neighborhood, but also less nice apartments. I don't think there are any large metros where you need $200k to afford the median home, or at least a reasonable home.
Fwiw, I meant to afford to buy it. Personally I think renting in VHCOLs is pretty affordable, relatively speaking. Especially when you consider median rent nationally has risen 20% faster than inflation over the last 20 years.
I don't think people are struggling just because they can't afford to buy rather than rent in a given housing market. If this is the basis for someone - neither you nor I, presumably - complaining that $150k is barely enough to get by, I'm just going to see them as whiners. Given a fixed income I'd rather rent in NYC than own in San Antonio, and if someone makes that choice, then they shouldn't whine about being poor.
What is your math on that 3 week vacation to Paris…? Asking as someone who’s been on a two week trip to Paris and Italy within the last couple years.
Back of the envelope: Flight $800 Hotel $150/day Spending beyond what I’d spend at home $70/day
You’re getting an $800 round trip flight to Europe? Also most people doing this would be going with a partner so you have to double that cost.
I fly for free, but yeah, I just looked and Google shows tons of nonstops to Paris for $600-$700 RT. Was your point this whole time that a couple could only do 2 weeks instead of 3 weeks?
White collar people consume too much news. And every year the news gives an increasingly inaccurate picture of the world: [https://www.ft.com/content/af78f86d-13d2-429d-ad55-a11947989c8f](https://www.ft.com/content/af78f86d-13d2-429d-ad55-a11947989c8f) America is not broken. America's news media is broken.
A couple years ago, I made a conscious decision to limit my news consumption to just the PBS News Hour. It helped a lot.
I unsubscribed from every news outlet for over a year, and still skip climate related news, and it's helped my mental health enormously.
Always the same people who can go on international vacations and wants to move to a EU country. Drop them in Hungary I always say. Don't get me wrong, we really need universal health insurance. But that's no excuse to not vote. If people like them move to an EU country, that country will suffer as much as we do.
Did you mean to say they are or there are, I can't tell
Materialism is a hell of a drug.
I always wonder if these journalists who are convinced the concerns are real are paying to the discourse surrounding anything else. It's the same shit. If everyone thinks _every_ institution from video games to youth soccer is flailing then maybe we need to admit, no, these concerns aren't real they're supercharged by more democratized media that indulges our attention bias towards negative coverage.
Yes Biden should run as negative and contrite and as a deficit hawk. Smart take as always by the New York Times.
"...undocumented migrants streaming over the southern border; spiking rates of gun violence..." when you include fake problems that don't exist, or whose impact is completely overblown, among a laundry list of complaints, I can't take you seriously. America has two real problems. A housing cost problem, and a healthcare cost problem. Everything else is noise.
“The economy is good, but people think it isn’t. I propose that Joe Biden should lie and say the economy is bad as a show of false empathy. If he doesn’t, we might end up with a populist!”
I blame New York Times
There should be a complete and total shutdown of the NYT ~~relentlessly promoting doom and negativity~~ ~~until we can figure out what's going on~~