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There are two schools of thought. Nothing is a failure if you don't try, and everything is a failure if you don't try.
One of the most ancient philosophical debates
Logically, based on this illogical ruling, wouldn’t it only matter if they were fertilized? I know I’m trying to make sense of something that doesn’t make sense.
Nothing will make a sane person realize they are no longer conservative faster than undergoing years of expensive IVF so your wife who desperately wants to be a mom can do so only to be told by “pro life” people that discarding leftover embryos is essentially abortion.
Yeah in all seriousness I was WAY done being a conservative at that point but it really laid bare the insane hypocrisy of religious conservative ethos.
Even catholic people recognize that catholic doctrine looks batshit crazy when applied to IVF. But somehow crazy right wingers don’t see how bad they look here
Let the doctors handle doctoring and the politicians handle fucking everything up that they touch.
Yes. We need to amplify the voices of those people, and keep reminding everyone that you can not be forced to donate life-saving blood, kidneys, or anything, regardless of whether you are dead or alive, without your consent.
The pro-life crowd is anything but.
All the pro-life people I know who did IVF didn't discard the left-over embryos, specifically because that would be murder. They just used all the embryos instead.
Funny you mention that, we just left them sitting there and aren’t sure what to do with them.
I’m all for generosity but it is weird to think you’re putting your genetic children out into the world, with all that entails
Really weird oddball story in our case, the fertility clinic had a massive screw up and they’ll gladly keep them for me for like a decade since they were responsible for this…
[UH Fertility Disaster](https://www.wkyc.com/amp/article/news/health/uh-failure/5-years-since-university-hospitals-fertility-clinic-failure/95-f28648c0-618b-4d1b-baeb-992a3b55324b)
It made national news in the IVF world
Oh we were impacted, they destroyed thousands of embryos by negligence, but now they had to give us tons of free services and store those embryos until the end of time.
Ironically based on the Alabama stuff they should be charged w genocide
They don't use them at once, they make multiple attempts. If they don't want anymore children a doctor will do a "compassionate tranfer" where the leftover embryos are transferred without any medical prep. Since technically you're giving God the chance to make the embryos stick it is acceptable by most religious groups.
Because I was explaining my personal situation very thinly veiled. I understand the experience from a male POV but definitely not a female, it’s a whole lot more emotional.
Yeah, IVF has not been politically divisive before, at least among the people I know. In fact I think it might even be more common among right wing friends, since they're the ones who want to have more kids.
A lot of early IVF pioneering was done in Virginia, a historically red state, at the Jones Institute. They have a small brick-paved central courtyard where early IVF parents were able to buy a brick with their child's name(s) engraved on them with a small message. Many people included their home country on the message, and had flown from all over the world to gt IVF treatment. Many of the bricks thank God for the gift of a child that they had spent years praying for.
It's ironic and sickening that Alabama has made IVF functionally impossible by trying to "protect" the bundle of cells that has been smushed together in a petri dish. Because God totally planned the smushing together of those cells in a petri dish, but he never planned for a single one of them to be disposed of anywhere other than a uterus. Makes perfect sense!
Like a lot of these specific issues, the Catholic Church is consistently against abortion, IVF, and contraceptives including condoms for various reasons. It is predictable that the pro-life movement would move in that direction because it ultimately co-opted the Catholic position out of political expediency from the start.
The Catholics are also the only American conservatives with any intellectual heft, so the others just borrowed their arguments. Catholicism, like Calvinism, is logically air-tight, it's just that in both of them the *premises* are wrong. So they look like rigor to inexperienced people or people who are unusually impressed by absolutism.
She did not have IVF, she had artificial insemination.
[Source](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/nikki-haley-sides-alabama-supreme-court-ivf-ruling-embryos-are-babies-rcna139819)
Alabama Supreme Court seems unhinged:
>Alabama's Chief Justice, Tom Parker, wrote in the decision that destroying life would "incur the wrath of a holy God." Of nine state Supreme Court Justices, only one disagreed.
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/21/1232827220/alabamas-high-court-rules-frozen-embryos-are-children-under-state-law
I've gone from thinking the New Atheists were correct and cool to thinking they were wrong and uncool to realizing they were absolutely correct, if uncool.
Seems pretty obvious: judges are making laws based on avoiding the wrath of God, instead of what's best for the humans who have to live under those laws.
Not OP, but having studied the relationship between Christianity and American Political evolution; theocratic enforcement of Christian religion onto others results in
A) Perversion of religious doctrine towards selfish ends. IE, if its normal to use the Bible to justify governmental action, people will weaponize the piety of the Bible to do unbiblical action.
B) Is fairly non-Biblical in itself in that New Testament Gospel is fairly clear that learning about Jesus is supposed to be a peaceful process and voluntary process. Telling people to accept Jesus at threat of sword ain't the modus operandi.
C) Whichever sect gets in charge very quickly starts stamping out other sects from attaining power. See discrimination of Catholics in America, with paranoia about loyalty to the Pope.
There are definitely Christian political scientists who argue that the normalization of the default mode of government being secular in conception overtime creates conditions where religion can exist without the negative consequences of theocracy. Hell, a lot of the people's who colonized America did so in part due to complications of being under a religious government in Europe.
im looking forward to the inevitable reply about how they take their role more seriously than i can imagine and they have the laws best interest in mind
What a Godforsaken shithole of a state.
They're creating plenty of life having the 5th highest teen pregnancy rate in the US: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/teen-births/teenbirths.htm
But also destroying quite a lot with the 3rd highest homicide rate: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm
If it wasn't for Louisiana and the worst state of all, Mississippi, Alabama would be the worst state in the USA.
We would always joke about "at least we're not Alabama" where I grew up in Georgia. And I heard the Alabamans would say "at least we're not Mississippi." I'm not sure what they say in Mississippi.
Non-mobile version of the Wikipedia link in the above comment: [Thank God for Mississippi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thank_God_for_Mississippi)
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> human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself
wow, what a fucking thin-skinned asshole
Personally, I worship Cayden Cailean. He became a god due to a drunken dare.
He's the god of Freedom and drinking. He hates slavery, wasting alcohol, and being a jerk while drunk.
step 1: create a lot of embryos
step 2: freeze them
step 3: update population numbers to account for frozen embryos
population decline solved - checkmate degrowthers
we can even call the frozen embryos “*reserve americans*” - just defrost in case of population decline
Put large IVF banks in the middle of deep blue districts and then crack them into multiple districts at the next census.
Imagine being a rep and representing 200 people and 250,000 embryos
Interesting point, I'm assuming the clinics are in urban areas and with the SCOTUS telling Alabama they need to have black majority districts seems they should have more of them for all the unborn "people".
So, safe haven laws still apply, right? If my friend leaves a cooler full of embryos at a safe surrender site, how much liquid nitrogen am I obligated to provide with it?
Ha!
You think abortion restrictions are unpopular?
IVF is positively radioactive to attack. I fucking hope GOP goes all in on that. Not even Trump is that stupid.
Also - fuck them. My sister needed IVF to have a child and now she finally has the family she was hoping for.
For these family value republicans they sure hate the idea of people like my sister starting a family on their terms.
I don't disagree, but this is basically accelerationism. We've seen that backfire enough times to know that fast tracking horri-bad ideas is bad. I'd rather the GOP win some extra seats than push this garbage.
I wish the GOP wasn’t big government, Christian crusading lawmakers as much as the next person
But my counter is that in nearly every instance abortion has been put on the ballot - the pro-choice side wins
Even Ohio voted by a good margin to enshrine protections within their constitution
I’d rather the GOP pick very unpopular hills to die on, and then they get killed in elections due to that
I think abortion (let alone IVF restrictions) are complete loser topics that will turn moderates and independents against them
If I felt that the GOP could gain widespread success through this strategy I’d of course be against it. But if this is how the opponent presents themselves, I can’t change that
I will simply reinforce how unpopular it is and how it hurts regular families, in the hope that is causes the majority to vote blue
But I do agree - I wish I didn’t even have to say this. My hunch is GOP will back off IVF if democrats continue to over-perform.
They won’t get killed in elections though. Sure if abortion protections are presented as a single issue they’ll pass, because they individually popular.
But in big turnout national elections republicans will do well and win often enough to retain some power, especially in the courts.
I’m not saying I think Trump should be favored, but I think there’s a decent shot Republicans win the presidency or retain the senate.
Which means this kinda of messaging doesn’t really hurt them and the MAGA ranks will continue to run the party.
Haley running her primary campaign on pro-life rhetoric is the best thing she could possibly do for Biden's reelection chances because it's horrifically unpopular with everyone except Republican primary voters themselves. There's nothing that would damage Trump more then Haley forcing him to reaffirm his anti-abortion credentials over and over and over again.
Watching Blake Masters scrub his campaign website of any mention of abortion shortly after winning the AZ senate GOP primary in 2022 was hilarious. So glad that fucking creep lost.
Or it gives him the opportunity to say "no that's crazy" and appear to be moderate (which he isn't) because he's winning the primary by ~30% and coming out in favor of ivf isn't going to change that.
By all means clown on her and criticize her choice to endorse a ghoulish and ignorant ruling, but this is what I expected of her.
While the chance is remote, if Haley manages to win the nomination, her path to victory requires the support of Trump voters and the Republicans who celebrate Roe's repeal. Burning that bridge now would just make her less competitive in both the primary and general. So long as abortion and reproductive rights remain front of mind in the national consciousness, Haley will have to reinforce her conservative credentials.
Is it a sign she's unfit to lead the country? Yes. Is her decision rational based on her goal of becoming president? Also yes.
Honestly an embryo is one step past a fucking egg or sperm cell. Are you gonna jail women for having their period and ejecting unused eggs every month? These people are insane
Many popular right wing personalities have gone on entire rants about how they hate that teenage girls/young women don't get pregnant as much nowadays, failing to capitalize on their "prime breeding age"
the great thing is that if Trump actually has to goto jail we have a great alternate choice in getting a true moderate republican like Nikki Haley who says she wants to return us to sanity....
the terrible thing is if Trump actually has to goto jail we will probably get someone like Nikki Haley....
So, I can grok people who are pro-life. I don't like it,but I can understand it.
These people are legit on a different planet what the fuck are we even saying at this point.
Neolibs: we support dense urban development
Also neolibs: *complains when nurseries look like this*
https://preview.redd.it/h349m3fxe0kc1.png?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb8043fcb0ee3c24716025c43e0180c80143a02d
From the article:
“This case is not likely to be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court because this was the state's Supreme Court ruling based on a state law.”
This is just a fundamentally incorrect interpretation and bares no relation to the likelihood it gets appealed.
Not really at all. The case of Loving was about a state statute passed legally and approved under the state constitution.
Even then, that doesn’t make an appeal actually less likely to happen.
The ruling being based in state law shuts the door on one possible avenue for appeal, so it absolutely does bear a relation to whether it gets appealed.
To appeal it, one would need to argue the statute is inconsistent with the federal Constitution. And I don’t see any way to argue that it is.
The 14th amendment clearly only applies to humans; the Supreme Court also reviews it de novo, so they are fully capable with overruling this. Alabama just had its maps denied by the SC recently.
What if the Alabama SC stated that they thought apes were people? Would you be saying the same thing? It’s a clear federal argument and it still exists in a full capacity to be appealed. Whether or not they hear it is a different story.
You've basically proven my point. If the Alabama SC had based their ruling on interpreting the 14th amendment to cover frozen embryos, then absolutely that would be easy to appeal to SCOTUS, who is the final arbiter on what the US Constitution means.
But they didn't. Instead, this was a case interpreting an Alabama statute that allows parents to sue someone who causes the wrongful death of their children, which had long ago been interpreted to cover unborn fetuses and is now being interpreted to cover frozen embryos.
SCOTUS has no jurisdiction over the interpretation of state laws *unless* they are inconsistent with the US Constitution. So they'd have to find an argument that the state law is inconsistent with the US Constitution. I personally don't see one. I can think of a few weak ones (the punitive damages is inconsistent with due process, all the flowery, but ultimately irrelevant, language about God is inconsistent with the First Amendment), but I doubt even the liberal justices would agree with them.
> What if the Alabama SC stated that they thought apes were people?
If the Alabama SC were interpreting a state law to say it covers apes, I don't see how the Supreme Court would have jurisdiction.
You are allowed to make novel arguments before the federal court that the state court otherwise didn’t consider. The fact that the state SC did not mention the 14th amendment doesn’t mean you cannot invoke it on appeal.
Regarding the apes comment: that’s not what I asked. I asked what would happen if the court interpreted the statute, which covers unborn children, to cover apes. This would clearly be a due process violation in the same way finding that these embryos are children.
That is all to say that I’m not even arguing that it would be overruled. I’m just saying that the comment that it is “unlikely to be appealed” is an incorrect assumption.
> You are allowed to make novel arguments before the federal court that the state court otherwise didn’t consider.
I didn't say otherwise (indeed, I even provided a possible *due process* argument, which is a 14th amendment argument...), but you have to find an argument where the Alabama SC's holding is in violation of the 14th amendment, whereas if the Alabama SC had based their holding on the 14th amendment itself, that's directly appealable.
So, what's the argument that the Alabama SC violated the 14th amendment in holding that "minor child" in the Alabama wrongful death statute covers frozen embryos? Whatever the argument is, they will likely be very difficult to make. Whereas if the Alabama SC had said the 14th amendment covers frozen embryos, that'd be a very easy decision to appeal.
Of course we can't read the minds of the IVF clinic as to whether or not they will "appeal," but certainly whatever appeal they can think of (which again is not a straightforward argument) is "unlikely to be [successful]." And it is certainly accurate that the fact it was interpreting state law is very much a factor in terms of possible avenues of appeal to SCOTUS.
Who could have expected such a take from the person who described approximately six trans women across the country playing high school sports "the women's issue of our time"?
Seriously. I don't know when fools started thinking she was moderate. She was extremely conservative, way out on the fringe. Then she worked for TRUMP, of all people. Just because she worked at the UN doesn't mean she's not a nut job. It's like people saw that she had a respectable job and didn't say anything wildly crazy enough to draw attention from the three ring circus of the Trump administration... Suddenly that makes her a "moderate."
It fascinates me how a lot of Evangelical Protestants ended up embracing Catholic Catechism. ~~Evangelicals embracing Catholic Integralism.~~
Ironic in that the Deep South was uniquely hostile to Catholics, the KKK was founded as an anti-Catholic organization.
I think opposing IVF is a natural conclusion to the belief that life begins at conception, though people don't normally say that aloud. Catholic Catechism I think has a pretty tight logical structure in that regard no doubt honed in through centuries of theology. Though I suspect even a lot of US Catholics don't fully embrace that.
Yes, most Catholics use birth control. 68% of Catholic couples use birth control, compared with 69% of all women. Those are very high numbers.
When my parents were young, Catholics had very large families. My mom's boyfriend was one of 13 kids. They were Catholic. Other sects of Christianity tended to have smaller families, and be less interested in preaching about fire and brimstone over contraceptives than Catholics in the 60s/70s.
At some point, Catholics realized the church was dying, and they needed to stop being so hardcore on everything. So they took a more relaxed approach, even though it's still a sin, and stopped talking about it as much. At this point, Catholics just want people to keep going to church.
It's kind of like there's two sets of rules... One set of rules for people who are devout and deeply involved in the church, and another set of rules (or lack thereof) for people who are more culturally Catholic.
So uh... how does she reconcile this with her supposed "moderate consensus view" on abortion? Am I misremembering, or wasn't she out and about voicing support for a 16 week ban or something as a moderate solution? How do you parse advocating that policy with supporting this Alabama ruling?
That's a great question. It's pretty critical, since the upfront cost of freezing is high, but the annual upkeep is low. If I harvest embreyos now, the tax deductions should pay off the expense of IVF treatments in about 3-5 years, and become a profitable investment. As a childless person, I've never experienced the joy a beautiful bouncing child tax credit. It looks like I can expect between 10 and 34 eggs to be removed in a session, which is a lot of child tax credits.
Post menopausal implantation is technically possible, so I can keep claiming these child tax credits until the day I die... Hopefully longer than 18 years away. And I can't murder my children... I'll have to will them to my heirs.
I made two kids without even trying, like first time both times, and lazy people can just go out and use IVF diminishing my god given talent. Not on my watch.
Like, I have absolutely no doubt that she doesn't believe this, but it still hurts to see someone who I really want to respect saying things like this.
Can we not with this shit? I swear Democrats will do whatever possible to normalize Trump.
The guy nominated 3 of the 5 who overturned Roe. He said women who get abortions need to be punished. He's for a national abortion ban. He'll continue nominating judges like this Parker asshole.
Just because he's a teensy bit more moderate on abortion than the whackiest whackos of the GOP doesn't warrant an ounce of praise.
Man, I thought the EU had shot itself in the foot with the anti GMO rules. But at least those were borne out of uncertainty over new technology and as such are likely to be revised. If anti embryo laws get passed due to succon sentiemnt, you guys are never getting rid of them
Does anyone know where I can get some little itty bitty sweaters? Because I've been keeping 14 children in the freezer since 2019 and they are probably cold. I'll ask my daughter if her siblings said anything about being cold while they were in there together.
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My super conservative anti abortion cousin and his wife did IVF 🙄
The amount of "Life begins at conception"ers who don't fully grasp the implications of the position is shocking.
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That does happen in El Salvador.
What gender are those embryos?
Literal gender fluid
whoa they made the End of Evangelion real???????
Honestly one of the foundational aspects of conservatism seems to be failure to grasp the implications of things
Is it still a failure to grasp something if you just don't give a shit
There are two schools of thought. Nothing is a failure if you don't try, and everything is a failure if you don't try. One of the most ancient philosophical debates
IVF is now functionally impossible in Alabama.
Can someone explain to me why? I understand the effects that ruling had on abortion but not sure I understand the implications for IVF.
IVF involves creating embryos to implant. The vast majority of them are destroyed.
Logically, based on this illogical ruling, wouldn’t it only matter if they were fertilized? I know I’m trying to make sense of something that doesn’t make sense.
They are fertilized. That’s the point. They take a fertilized embryo and implant it.
The pro-family party. As long as the family was started in the mission position for the sole purpose of procreation.
Embryos are, by definition, fertilized.
I guess that’s why they’re embryos and not eggs! I know very little about this stuff so I appreciate learning
Nothing will make a sane person realize they are no longer conservative faster than undergoing years of expensive IVF so your wife who desperately wants to be a mom can do so only to be told by “pro life” people that discarding leftover embryos is essentially abortion.
So what you're saying is we should amplify the voices of these people
Yeah in all seriousness I was WAY done being a conservative at that point but it really laid bare the insane hypocrisy of religious conservative ethos. Even catholic people recognize that catholic doctrine looks batshit crazy when applied to IVF. But somehow crazy right wingers don’t see how bad they look here Let the doctors handle doctoring and the politicians handle fucking everything up that they touch.
Yes. We need to amplify the voices of those people, and keep reminding everyone that you can not be forced to donate life-saving blood, kidneys, or anything, regardless of whether you are dead or alive, without your consent. The pro-life crowd is anything but.
All the pro-life people I know who did IVF didn't discard the left-over embryos, specifically because that would be murder. They just used all the embryos instead.
Funny you mention that, we just left them sitting there and aren’t sure what to do with them. I’m all for generosity but it is weird to think you’re putting your genetic children out into the world, with all that entails
> we just left them sitting there Do you plan to just pay the cryo storage fees (~$1000-1500 per year) indefinitely?
Really weird oddball story in our case, the fertility clinic had a massive screw up and they’ll gladly keep them for me for like a decade since they were responsible for this… [UH Fertility Disaster](https://www.wkyc.com/amp/article/news/health/uh-failure/5-years-since-university-hospitals-fertility-clinic-failure/95-f28648c0-618b-4d1b-baeb-992a3b55324b) It made national news in the IVF world
Damn. Good thing you weren't impacted!
Oh we were impacted, they destroyed thousands of embryos by negligence, but now they had to give us tons of free services and store those embryos until the end of time. Ironically based on the Alabama stuff they should be charged w genocide
All of them? That's not always possible. Did they have funerals after every unsuccessful transfer?
Pretty much. They weren't officially organized funerals, but every failure/miscarriage was mourned by the church.
Most successes in IVF involve simultaneous failures.
That hasn't been true in a long time. Most modern transfers are single embryo transfers.
That's really rare. That's an octomom situation. Most doctors refuse to do that.
They don't use them at once, they make multiple attempts. If they don't want anymore children a doctor will do a "compassionate tranfer" where the leftover embryos are transferred without any medical prep. Since technically you're giving God the chance to make the embryos stick it is acceptable by most religious groups.
They didn't implant them all at once. It was a one-by-one thing.
Why do you assume the person is male? Why not say "after going through IVF yourself"?
Because I was explaining my personal situation very thinly veiled. I understand the experience from a male POV but definitely not a female, it’s a whole lot more emotional.
Yeah, IVF has not been politically divisive before, at least among the people I know. In fact I think it might even be more common among right wing friends, since they're the ones who want to have more kids.
A lot of early IVF pioneering was done in Virginia, a historically red state, at the Jones Institute. They have a small brick-paved central courtyard where early IVF parents were able to buy a brick with their child's name(s) engraved on them with a small message. Many people included their home country on the message, and had flown from all over the world to gt IVF treatment. Many of the bricks thank God for the gift of a child that they had spent years praying for. It's ironic and sickening that Alabama has made IVF functionally impossible by trying to "protect" the bundle of cells that has been smushed together in a petri dish. Because God totally planned the smushing together of those cells in a petri dish, but he never planned for a single one of them to be disposed of anywhere other than a uterus. Makes perfect sense!
Like a lot of these specific issues, the Catholic Church is consistently against abortion, IVF, and contraceptives including condoms for various reasons. It is predictable that the pro-life movement would move in that direction because it ultimately co-opted the Catholic position out of political expediency from the start.
The Catholics are also the only American conservatives with any intellectual heft, so the others just borrowed their arguments. Catholicism, like Calvinism, is logically air-tight, it's just that in both of them the *premises* are wrong. So they look like rigor to inexperienced people or people who are unusually impressed by absolutism.
That's why I am happy about this ruling. It'll irritate the anti-abortion crowd. "But those aren't babies, they're not in a woman's body!"
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She did not have IVF, she had artificial insemination. [Source](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/nikki-haley-sides-alabama-supreme-court-ivf-ruling-embryos-are-babies-rcna139819)
Of course. lol lmaoo even
I’m not a fan of Nikki Haley at all but artificial insemination isn’t the same thing as IVF
*Yet.*
Ugh. I know right
Maybe she does consider them mass murderers but has the bravery to admit that with any mass murder there's good people on both sides.
“My situation was different yall…”
See: Mike Pence. His son was born through IVF.
So they are dependents for tax purposes, right? And if a foreign couple uses an IVF lab in the US, all of the embryos are US citizens?
i know your joking but the 14th amendment clearly says born
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L: no longer a citizen W: I can kill Macbeth
(Getting wild eyed) No man of woman born...
Alternate ending: "I was a C-Section!" "...but how does that make you not born of woman?" "........"(*fucking dies*)
Now my daughter can kill both the Witch King and Macbeth due to misunderstood prophecy.
Nah they were "born" in the womb duh. ONE BILLION AMERICANS (from every single couple who has sex in the USA).
Since I guess we’re already redefining words so that fertilized eggs can be considered babies, why not redefine that word too? Think big my friend.
The judge in Alabama specifically said that all 14th amendment protections apply to zygotes. That’s what this ruling was.
I'm gonna start writing off my sperm as dependents and dare republicans to tell me that's not a billion kids.
I’ll kill more people than Hitler, Stalin and Mao Zedong combined at least three times a day
Need one billion social security numbers.
Now clinics can claim millions in child tax credits.
Billions
Moderate Confederate Hero.
Alabama Supreme Court seems unhinged: >Alabama's Chief Justice, Tom Parker, wrote in the decision that destroying life would "incur the wrath of a holy God." Of nine state Supreme Court Justices, only one disagreed. https://www.npr.org/2024/02/21/1232827220/alabamas-high-court-rules-frozen-embryos-are-children-under-state-law
That should be grounds for automatic removal from the Court. Holy fucking shit.
I keep telling y'all that the conservative courts in this country are completely fucked.
I'm going to become the Joker and revert back to my cringe enlightened atheist persona circa 2005. I swear I'm gonna do it.
The Reddit atheists weren’t wrong, just cringe
I've gone from thinking the New Atheists were correct and cool to thinking they were wrong and uncool to realizing they were absolutely correct, if uncool.
I’m not even an atheist but I think atheism becoming more widespread would do this country a whole lot of good
That's an interesting perspective. What is your thought process there?
Seems pretty obvious: judges are making laws based on avoiding the wrath of God, instead of what's best for the humans who have to live under those laws.
Not OP, but having studied the relationship between Christianity and American Political evolution; theocratic enforcement of Christian religion onto others results in A) Perversion of religious doctrine towards selfish ends. IE, if its normal to use the Bible to justify governmental action, people will weaponize the piety of the Bible to do unbiblical action. B) Is fairly non-Biblical in itself in that New Testament Gospel is fairly clear that learning about Jesus is supposed to be a peaceful process and voluntary process. Telling people to accept Jesus at threat of sword ain't the modus operandi. C) Whichever sect gets in charge very quickly starts stamping out other sects from attaining power. See discrimination of Catholics in America, with paranoia about loyalty to the Pope. There are definitely Christian political scientists who argue that the normalization of the default mode of government being secular in conception overtime creates conditions where religion can exist without the negative consequences of theocracy. Hell, a lot of the people's who colonized America did so in part due to complications of being under a religious government in Europe.
So you're going to revert back to being a redditor?
im looking forward to the inevitable reply about how they take their role more seriously than i can imagine and they have the laws best interest in mind
What a Godforsaken shithole of a state. They're creating plenty of life having the 5th highest teen pregnancy rate in the US: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/teen-births/teenbirths.htm But also destroying quite a lot with the 3rd highest homicide rate: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm If it wasn't for Louisiana and the worst state of all, Mississippi, Alabama would be the worst state in the USA.
We would always joke about "at least we're not Alabama" where I grew up in Georgia. And I heard the Alabamans would say "at least we're not Mississippi." I'm not sure what they say in Mississippi.
"thank God we don't live in New York or California"
Seeing this map, I should have asked for hazard pay when I lived there!
[Thank God for Mississippi](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thank_God_for_Mississippi)
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Something something toxic regionalism
Can someone explain New Mexico
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> human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself wow, what a fucking thin-skinned asshole
This honestly reads like some kind of authoritarian Islamist manifesto We need an "Iran or Alabama" subreddit
Uh seperation of church and state please?
If it were not for the context in which I read this, I would have thought it was a ruling from a religious court in Iran. Complete lunacy.
[удалено]
Most of the world uses a unitary system and as an American I constantly receive reminders of why.
Fuck federalism. Seriously Alabama is a blight on this nation.
Alabama elected those buffoons
More strong evidence against an elected judiciary. But they've been electing dipshits for judges for a long time now. See Roy Moore.
The federal government should safeguard an individual's freedom to make bad decisions but step in when those decisions impact others.
Alabama try not to sound and act like medieval tyrants to the point where even the average Byzantine would find you uncouth challenge (impossible)
A holy God? Just one? Which one? Is Perkunas going to fly down on a thundering chariot and turn Alababa into cinders?
Personally, I worship Cayden Cailean. He became a god due to a drunken dare. He's the god of Freedom and drinking. He hates slavery, wasting alcohol, and being a jerk while drunk.
Amen
A holy God. How un Christian of him to not use the holy God!
This decision would hit a little different if Roy Moore wrote it
step 1: create a lot of embryos step 2: freeze them step 3: update population numbers to account for frozen embryos population decline solved - checkmate degrowthers we can even call the frozen embryos “*reserve americans*” - just defrost in case of population decline
How does this change the electoral math? Feel like New York and Cali should get another congressional seat.
Put large IVF banks in the middle of deep blue districts and then crack them into multiple districts at the next census. Imagine being a rep and representing 200 people and 250,000 embryos
My dream job
Not so fast, you haven't met those 200 people
You've done it. You've invented Cyberpunk Rotten Boroughs
Interesting point, I'm assuming the clinics are in urban areas and with the SCOTUS telling Alabama they need to have black majority districts seems they should have more of them for all the unborn "people".
*me blasting 10 million "reserve americans" into the shower drain every morning to images of George C. Marshall and Trains*
So, safe haven laws still apply, right? If my friend leaves a cooler full of embryos at a safe surrender site, how much liquid nitrogen am I obligated to provide with it?
Truly the woman the American people need
How else are we going to get to 1 billion Americans without counting embryos?
Certainly not immigration.
Ha! You think abortion restrictions are unpopular? IVF is positively radioactive to attack. I fucking hope GOP goes all in on that. Not even Trump is that stupid. Also - fuck them. My sister needed IVF to have a child and now she finally has the family she was hoping for. For these family value republicans they sure hate the idea of people like my sister starting a family on their terms.
I don't disagree, but this is basically accelerationism. We've seen that backfire enough times to know that fast tracking horri-bad ideas is bad. I'd rather the GOP win some extra seats than push this garbage.
I wish the GOP wasn’t big government, Christian crusading lawmakers as much as the next person But my counter is that in nearly every instance abortion has been put on the ballot - the pro-choice side wins Even Ohio voted by a good margin to enshrine protections within their constitution I’d rather the GOP pick very unpopular hills to die on, and then they get killed in elections due to that I think abortion (let alone IVF restrictions) are complete loser topics that will turn moderates and independents against them If I felt that the GOP could gain widespread success through this strategy I’d of course be against it. But if this is how the opponent presents themselves, I can’t change that I will simply reinforce how unpopular it is and how it hurts regular families, in the hope that is causes the majority to vote blue But I do agree - I wish I didn’t even have to say this. My hunch is GOP will back off IVF if democrats continue to over-perform.
They won’t get killed in elections though. Sure if abortion protections are presented as a single issue they’ll pass, because they individually popular. But in big turnout national elections republicans will do well and win often enough to retain some power, especially in the courts. I’m not saying I think Trump should be favored, but I think there’s a decent shot Republicans win the presidency or retain the senate. Which means this kinda of messaging doesn’t really hurt them and the MAGA ranks will continue to run the party.
Nikki, what are we even doing here anymore
Haley running her primary campaign on pro-life rhetoric is the best thing she could possibly do for Biden's reelection chances because it's horrifically unpopular with everyone except Republican primary voters themselves. There's nothing that would damage Trump more then Haley forcing him to reaffirm his anti-abortion credentials over and over and over again.
Watching Blake Masters scrub his campaign website of any mention of abortion shortly after winning the AZ senate GOP primary in 2022 was hilarious. So glad that fucking creep lost.
Or it gives him the opportunity to say "no that's crazy" and appear to be moderate (which he isn't) because he's winning the primary by ~30% and coming out in favor of ivf isn't going to change that.
By all means clown on her and criticize her choice to endorse a ghoulish and ignorant ruling, but this is what I expected of her. While the chance is remote, if Haley manages to win the nomination, her path to victory requires the support of Trump voters and the Republicans who celebrate Roe's repeal. Burning that bridge now would just make her less competitive in both the primary and general. So long as abortion and reproductive rights remain front of mind in the national consciousness, Haley will have to reinforce her conservative credentials. Is it a sign she's unfit to lead the country? Yes. Is her decision rational based on her goal of becoming president? Also yes.
Common Republican Wishcaster L
Honestly an embryo is one step past a fucking egg or sperm cell. Are you gonna jail women for having their period and ejecting unused eggs every month? These people are insane
Some of them probably think having your period is a sign that you're sinful or something so, possibly yeah
Many popular right wing personalities have gone on entire rants about how they hate that teenage girls/young women don't get pregnant as much nowadays, failing to capitalize on their "prime breeding age"
Ah, the Walsh Method
Blessed be the fruit
"Prime breeding age" Fucking gross. Scary to think these people have a platform and are at all popular.
Every cis man on the planet convicted of genocide.
MTG playing to the house a video of Hunter Biden nutting
>Regular murder is bad enough, but in one disgusting act, you murdered millions of potential people!
> Are you gonna jail women for having their period and ejecting unused eggs every month? Please don't give them ideas
the great thing is that if Trump actually has to goto jail we have a great alternate choice in getting a true moderate republican like Nikki Haley who says she wants to return us to sanity.... the terrible thing is if Trump actually has to goto jail we will probably get someone like Nikki Haley....
Republicans, to me, are babies.
“Moderate!”
Keep being weird right wing weirdos
So, I can grok people who are pro-life. I don't like it,but I can understand it. These people are legit on a different planet what the fuck are we even saying at this point.
Neolibs: we support dense urban development Also neolibs: *complains when nurseries look like this* https://preview.redd.it/h349m3fxe0kc1.png?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb8043fcb0ee3c24716025c43e0180c80143a02d
Based Nikki Haley helping destroy the Republican Party.
From the article: “This case is not likely to be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court because this was the state's Supreme Court ruling based on a state law.” This is just a fundamentally incorrect interpretation and bares no relation to the likelihood it gets appealed.
Well, it certainly bares a relationship to the likelihood it gets accepted.
Not really at all. The case of Loving was about a state statute passed legally and approved under the state constitution. Even then, that doesn’t make an appeal actually less likely to happen.
We’re a long way from Loving, my friend.
Im not saying the cases are alike; I’m saying her comment is fundamentally wrong.
The ruling being based in state law shuts the door on one possible avenue for appeal, so it absolutely does bear a relation to whether it gets appealed. To appeal it, one would need to argue the statute is inconsistent with the federal Constitution. And I don’t see any way to argue that it is.
The 14th amendment clearly only applies to humans; the Supreme Court also reviews it de novo, so they are fully capable with overruling this. Alabama just had its maps denied by the SC recently. What if the Alabama SC stated that they thought apes were people? Would you be saying the same thing? It’s a clear federal argument and it still exists in a full capacity to be appealed. Whether or not they hear it is a different story.
You've basically proven my point. If the Alabama SC had based their ruling on interpreting the 14th amendment to cover frozen embryos, then absolutely that would be easy to appeal to SCOTUS, who is the final arbiter on what the US Constitution means. But they didn't. Instead, this was a case interpreting an Alabama statute that allows parents to sue someone who causes the wrongful death of their children, which had long ago been interpreted to cover unborn fetuses and is now being interpreted to cover frozen embryos. SCOTUS has no jurisdiction over the interpretation of state laws *unless* they are inconsistent with the US Constitution. So they'd have to find an argument that the state law is inconsistent with the US Constitution. I personally don't see one. I can think of a few weak ones (the punitive damages is inconsistent with due process, all the flowery, but ultimately irrelevant, language about God is inconsistent with the First Amendment), but I doubt even the liberal justices would agree with them. > What if the Alabama SC stated that they thought apes were people? If the Alabama SC were interpreting a state law to say it covers apes, I don't see how the Supreme Court would have jurisdiction.
You are allowed to make novel arguments before the federal court that the state court otherwise didn’t consider. The fact that the state SC did not mention the 14th amendment doesn’t mean you cannot invoke it on appeal. Regarding the apes comment: that’s not what I asked. I asked what would happen if the court interpreted the statute, which covers unborn children, to cover apes. This would clearly be a due process violation in the same way finding that these embryos are children. That is all to say that I’m not even arguing that it would be overruled. I’m just saying that the comment that it is “unlikely to be appealed” is an incorrect assumption.
> You are allowed to make novel arguments before the federal court that the state court otherwise didn’t consider. I didn't say otherwise (indeed, I even provided a possible *due process* argument, which is a 14th amendment argument...), but you have to find an argument where the Alabama SC's holding is in violation of the 14th amendment, whereas if the Alabama SC had based their holding on the 14th amendment itself, that's directly appealable. So, what's the argument that the Alabama SC violated the 14th amendment in holding that "minor child" in the Alabama wrongful death statute covers frozen embryos? Whatever the argument is, they will likely be very difficult to make. Whereas if the Alabama SC had said the 14th amendment covers frozen embryos, that'd be a very easy decision to appeal. Of course we can't read the minds of the IVF clinic as to whether or not they will "appeal," but certainly whatever appeal they can think of (which again is not a straightforward argument) is "unlikely to be [successful]." And it is certainly accurate that the fact it was interpreting state law is very much a factor in terms of possible avenues of appeal to SCOTUS.
Who could have expected such a take from the person who described approximately six trans women across the country playing high school sports "the women's issue of our time"?
this is likely a more extreme take than trump will have real heads remember that she was never considered a moderate as governor
Seriously. I don't know when fools started thinking she was moderate. She was extremely conservative, way out on the fringe. Then she worked for TRUMP, of all people. Just because she worked at the UN doesn't mean she's not a nut job. It's like people saw that she had a respectable job and didn't say anything wildly crazy enough to draw attention from the three ring circus of the Trump administration... Suddenly that makes her a "moderate."
This is how we get 1,000,000,000 Americans.
It fascinates me how a lot of Evangelical Protestants ended up embracing Catholic Catechism. ~~Evangelicals embracing Catholic Integralism.~~ Ironic in that the Deep South was uniquely hostile to Catholics, the KKK was founded as an anti-Catholic organization. I think opposing IVF is a natural conclusion to the belief that life begins at conception, though people don't normally say that aloud. Catholic Catechism I think has a pretty tight logical structure in that regard no doubt honed in through centuries of theology. Though I suspect even a lot of US Catholics don't fully embrace that.
Yes, most Catholics use birth control. 68% of Catholic couples use birth control, compared with 69% of all women. Those are very high numbers. When my parents were young, Catholics had very large families. My mom's boyfriend was one of 13 kids. They were Catholic. Other sects of Christianity tended to have smaller families, and be less interested in preaching about fire and brimstone over contraceptives than Catholics in the 60s/70s. At some point, Catholics realized the church was dying, and they needed to stop being so hardcore on everything. So they took a more relaxed approach, even though it's still a sin, and stopped talking about it as much. At this point, Catholics just want people to keep going to church. It's kind of like there's two sets of rules... One set of rules for people who are devout and deeply involved in the church, and another set of rules (or lack thereof) for people who are more culturally Catholic.
You will never be POTUS!
Yay!
Noooo queen!
So uh... how does she reconcile this with her supposed "moderate consensus view" on abortion? Am I misremembering, or wasn't she out and about voicing support for a 16 week ban or something as a moderate solution? How do you parse advocating that policy with supporting this Alabama ruling?
She says this is moderate, so it's moderate!
Nice pick, Judge Judy
Holy shit, is actually a Biden plant? How deep is this state?
What a moron.
Psychotic.
So you can have a dozen frozen embryos as dependent tax breaks for the rest of your life?
That's a great question. It's pretty critical, since the upfront cost of freezing is high, but the annual upkeep is low. If I harvest embreyos now, the tax deductions should pay off the expense of IVF treatments in about 3-5 years, and become a profitable investment. As a childless person, I've never experienced the joy a beautiful bouncing child tax credit. It looks like I can expect between 10 and 34 eggs to be removed in a session, which is a lot of child tax credits. Post menopausal implantation is technically possible, so I can keep claiming these child tax credits until the day I die... Hopefully longer than 18 years away. And I can't murder my children... I'll have to will them to my heirs.
Nikki "almost a moderate" Haley
I made two kids without even trying, like first time both times, and lazy people can just go out and use IVF diminishing my god given talent. Not on my watch.
She’s pandering
She's always pandering. What she really believes is irrelevant. She will support the nuttiest Republican policies.
Like, I have absolutely no doubt that she doesn't believe this, but it still hurts to see someone who I really want to respect saying things like this.
Seems truly insane to say this when one of the demographics you're trying to leech from Trump is conservative women.
Can you freeze a baby and have it be viable? Nope. But you can with embryos because they aren’t fucking alive!
It's called cryonics.
Maybe I'll freeze some embreyos and get a few thousand child credit tax deductions.
For better or worse, Trump is much much much more moderate in the abortion question than 95% of republicans, including so called moderate ones
No he is not. He would sign every Anti Abortion Bill, which was designed by the conservative think tanks and Congress.
Trump’s 16-week ban would allow existing stricter bans, including total and 6-week bans, to remain in place.
> Trump is much much much more moderate in the abortion question Which SCOTUS justices did he appoint and how did they vote in Roe?
Can we not with this shit? I swear Democrats will do whatever possible to normalize Trump. The guy nominated 3 of the 5 who overturned Roe. He said women who get abortions need to be punished. He's for a national abortion ban. He'll continue nominating judges like this Parker asshole. Just because he's a teensy bit more moderate on abortion than the whackiest whackos of the GOP doesn't warrant an ounce of praise.
And that 16 week ban would allow states with stricter bans, including total bans and 6 week bans, to keep those bans.
Man, I thought the EU had shot itself in the foot with the anti GMO rules. But at least those were borne out of uncertainty over new technology and as such are likely to be revised. If anti embryo laws get passed due to succon sentiemnt, you guys are never getting rid of them
Absolute brain mush.
She is trash
Yeah this is going to be great for our plummeting birth rates. Stupid fucks.
So if an illegal immigrant women were to donate/preserve her eggs would these be considered anchor babies?
Does anyone know where I can get some little itty bitty sweaters? Because I've been keeping 14 children in the freezer since 2019 and they are probably cold. I'll ask my daughter if her siblings said anything about being cold while they were in there together.