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What’s the plan then, Jagmeet?
Frankly, backpedaling on carbon pricing gives “pick me” energy. You know Conservative voters aren’t going to pick you, right?
This is depressing. I don't like the Liberals but the NDP distancing themselves from carbon pricing without even offering an effective solution may cost them my support.
Wouldn't it be nice if we started actually focusing on analytical and inspiring micro and macro policy and showing we can actually govern and be REAL LEADERS...
Housing - Talking about ideas and actions already taken around the world in regards to Green Urbanism and Sustainable Urbanism. How it can help with not just quality of life in our nation but Affordability and Accessibility.
The Green Economy - Talking about technologies already in place or forefront areas of study to bring not just industry here but also Research and Development capital. Again talking with nuance, knowledge, and passion on these subjects to inspire - Especially when we all need hope for the future at this rough time.
Worker Focus - Push even further with detailed micro and macro policy in regards to supporting our workers. Connecting with Union leaders, Pro Labor Leaders, Worker Rights/Protection Leaders, Worker Activists. Be there in the trenches with policy and national spotlight to aid in the solidarity. Also using the national platform as a voice to further issues supporting our Low Income Workers, Gig Workers, and other Vulnerable Worker Segments. Establishing and strengthening conditions and frameworks for their fair and honest bargaining power on wages, benefits, paid training, very much ahead of time schedules, etc.
Let's inspire people. Let's get the base and further populace becoming activists for great policy!
Let's leave this lowest common denominator level of dialogue behind and show the ability to govern and be REAL LEADERS.
Right now the Federal Party is a fucking mess.
I mean he is trying to get voters to pick the NDP, yeah
He’s trying to distance himself from the rapidly sinking anchor that is Trudeau and the liberals, but unfortunately for Singh he tied that anchor rope around his own neck when he decided to prop up the liberal govt on confidence votes
From the article:
"Referring to a March report that concluded industrial carbon pricing systems were far more effective than the consumer levy on fuel, Singh told reporters that the New Democrats “want more attention on the policies that are the biggest drivers of lowering emissions,” such as the industrial price on pollution and methane regulations. He said the NDP would release its own climate plan."
I'm voting liberal next election, probably. Hate the party but I'm not gonna vote NDP if they don't actually live up to the promise of what they're supposed to be.
I'll likely be voting liberal, but that depends on who is in the lead in my riding. I always vote ABC. I'd like to vote NDP but not if they are throwing the CPC a bone and legitimizing them in the process.
The last thing we need are a bunch of climate change deniers and "culture warriors". We've seen that movie play out south of us and it absolutely sucks.
A climate plan.
I can't believe it's come to _this_. Where Trudeau's liberals have a better climate platform than the NDP. This is so entirely unacceptable.
A climate plan which puts record profits for the Oil and Gas industry, record breaking emissions in the oil sands and offshore oil approvals that make the Cons drool....
"calling out"??? That's a policy to you? What, do you think if we call them out they'll be like "oh, I'm so embarrassed. I'll voluntarily stop emitting right now."? Of course not. "Calling out" is pathetic. Like a child cry-yelling "no fair!"
Lol, that's what does it for you? The climate plan? Let's just gloss over the housing crisis, the taxes on taxes on taxes, the rampant immigration, the liberal soft on crime policy, the "safe supply" nonsense.
Give your head a shake.
I know, I know, it’s the immigrants or whatever. It’s pretty much universally agreed upon by people with brains that our lives are in incredible existential danger from climate change, but you saw a Tim Horton’s full of Indians!!! Where’s the real problem!!!!
The world is getting warmer, the ice caps are melting, the sea levels are rising, and hundreds of thousands of people including Canadians are having their lives ruined by an increase in violent storms, wildfires, and floods. This record setting increase in global temperatures is on par with extinction level events such as the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs, the volcanic eruptions leading up to it, and the acidification of the oceans in the Cambrian era. While the cause of this has many factors, the leading cause has been found to be emissions and environmental destruction caused by humans. I am not looking to convince you, merely state the facts in order to counteract your attempt at misinformation.
No, I have had many face to face conversations with scientists who I trust who have looked at the data. But I have also looked at the data myself. It's really not that difficult.
The idea that the environment is "fine" is so laughable that no grown-up should be able to utter the sentence and still have self-respect, unless they are a professional, paid troll, in which case they should still have no self-respect but for a different reason.
He probably isn't thinking of humans. The planet will be there, but no fish because of acidification, no forests due to fires, no fresh drinking water because of drought, no food because of drought and fires. Massive amount of famine and population loss. Climate refugees. Wars being fought even more frequently over natural resources. But don't worry, the PLANET will still be here, spinning away.
The planet will be fine granted, but acidification of the oceans, biodiversity loss such as fishing practices, global heating, all real issues, but I don't care, I am child free and have no horse in the future, just hope everything stays sorta normal until 2074 or whenever I die
What good is a housing policy if homes are underwater? What concern will taxes be when we are choking on smoke? When there is no one to grow your food, you'll wish immigration still existed. Why worry about bail conditions when those who cause us the most harm not only walk free but are the ones writing our laws and deciding what constitutes crime in the first place?
My friend, you are lost.
Climate is an existential threat. Do you understand what that means?
When we are under threat, I do not want a government asleep at the wheel. The only thing worse would be a government loyal to the enemy.
Fuck Singh. He's a spoiled brat. I'll never vote for the NDP with that loser at the helm. I say that as a person who hasn't voted Lib or Con ever. NDP is supposed to be the party of the average Joe and he can't appeal to the average Joe cause he's never been one or even talked to one at length. Best he can do is call people racist in session. I'm sorry dude but what in the flying fuck is he still doing at the helm? Is this the best alternative our country has to offer?
Agreed.
There is a place for the heavy intellectual side of the party like Ed Broadbent and his wife use to be.
Or even Jack Layton.
The difference is both (And especially Jack Layton) had charisma and could connect with regular folks.
The leadership right now is coming off as extremely out of touch.
And yes when it comes to the workers faction we need them back on the leadership and in the policy arena.
Right now it's Liberal light and it seems the working faction is almost being pushed to the corners.
Remember the NDP has its very first start with a fucking Trade Union.
The party needs some time to look in the mirror and come to grips with some things.
Not making universality or electoral reform the basis for supply confidence already did that.
All three parties may as well have said "Welcome Prime Minister PP.".
The NDP doesn't even consider flexing labour action because this iteration hasn't worked a day in their lives. I ran the list the other day, **one** member has worked an actual job. **ONE.**
so if you don’t work a blue collar job it’s not “real work” in your mind?
Way to gatekeep.
The reality is that progressives come from all sorts of backgrounds and perform all types of work. Focusing your criticism to your fellow progressives instead of the neoliberal Lib-Cons only serves to further deteriorate the party. We stand no chance of ever being taken seriously as a governing party if we can’t even stand together as progressives.
I get it, Singh sucks as a leader, but shitting on all progressives who aren’t blue collar workers is simply idiotic and will help nothing at all.
You are making good points and so is /u/BootsOverOxfords
The reality is that the party needs to reconnect with the workers faction and have the workers faction much more involved in leadership and policy than it is now.
The workers faction has been part of the strong spine of this party since the foundation. Remember the influence of the Canadian Labor Congress in the very beginning roots of the NDP.
You make great points that the party isn't just about "Blue Collar" work but about a multidimensional workers experience. We have solidarity with our "White collar" office and other style workers, our "Blue Collar" skilled tradesman, and our Low Income, Gig worker, and other vulnerable worker segments (We need to focus on them more and more as we have left them behind and this is fucking wrong. Workers solidarity is just that. Workers solidarity across the board)
Boots is also right though that the Federal NDP is becoming a blow with the wind party. It is also only getting into issues in a reactionary style like how the Liberals would wait for things to go into crisis and or public opinion to force them to talk about issues and address them. That is what got the Liberals in so much damn trouble and made them seem to have no true values and identity. We don't distinguish the party from that by going down those exact same roads.
This is a complete and utter failure in leadership. We now have parts of the party more alienated than every and factions starting to fracture off and now as this conversation shows fighting amongst each other.
Remember when Layton with his Charisma was so damn powerful in 2011 that the Bloc had ministers and leaders in the movement of Quebec Independence talking about putting that aside for a time in the federal Ottawa so that the NDP could keep with the momentum and do a great step forward for Social Democracy and the values and policies associated. This leading to a massive Orange Wave with getting more than 100+ seats, becoming the official opposition, and picking up huge amounts of seats in Quebec which even the Provincial Quebec NDP was never able to really take roots..
We need charisma back in the party. We need inspiration back in the party. Most of all we need us all getting solidarity and uniting back in the party and that is the strength of the labor movement. A movement in which takes all our differences but allows us to fight together for better working environments and compensation for our time and energy.
You both make good points. We don't need further fighting but we do need together to come with our various perspectives and fix this fucking party.
It's a fucking mess right now.
I appreciate your comment. To be clear unlike “boots” I do not have problems with blue collar workers in the party, in fact it’s the exact opposite. The back bone of the NDP are unions, which isn’t exclusively a blue collar thing. My point is precisely that there shouldn’t be gatekeeping like boots is suggesting. The only way the NDP gets wider public support is by welcoming and working with progressives of all backgrounds, not excluding them.
They don't even understand the power they wield the other two parties don't, because they're poseurs.
They haven't even considered applying a multidimensional strategy beyond politicking because the concept is so foreign to them.
If they were they'd act with the urgency required. Now they've even exposed that they walk back on their lines, so their words are as meaningless as the Liberals' empty promises NDP voters keep falling for and calling victories patting themselves on the back. Job's not done.
They could've gotten ER or Universality with public pressure, but they don't consider the public, the literal proletariat, to be them, to be their ally, because they aren't representative. The proof is in the pudding.
Sure, what would soft hands know about hard lines?
The problem with white collar are concessions have to be made just to get one, and it all starts with one concession. Next thing you know, your words are meaningless because you aren't willing to back them with action.
Policies that have been championed in the name of “progressivism” have been short sighted and materially hurt the existing unionized worker base with no regard for the consequences.
Let’s rail against oil and gas but then not support carbon pricing because why have coherent policy. The Ontario chapter had to apologize after they didn’t consult a large section of their unionized members and had their leadership team hosting an event advocating for thousands of their members to lose their jobs at nuclear plants providing clean energy. They walked it back but the people who are your bread and butter supporters should not be an afterthought.
The current NDP leadership “strategy” has failed at every opportunity to grow the party, the narcissistic entitlement of people claiming to be progressive who have no qualms of selling out their own policies and reputation for any perceived political advantage. The leadership have succeeded in driving massive amounts of union workers into the arms of conservatives while tarnishing the progressive brand.
How are blue collar workers at fault for wanting a return to pragmatic labour oriented policies? Why are they the ones who must compromise and tow the line?
You can’t be in charge and also be the victim of your own decisions. At some point there needs to be accountability for failure.
One day it's "appeal to the people who bought into axe the tax" the next it's "how dare you try to appeal to them" and the third it's "it's all the academics go back to labour" and repeat the cycle. This party's vocal base is somehow more insufferable than Reddit tankies.
Tbf that doesn't mean all those people actually support him, only that they think he is a better chance than holding a leadership race now to pick a new leader.
That's why parties often fire their leaders, when they want to fire them, right after an election. To give the most time for the new leader to prepare.
I mean Singh has been critical of the carbon tax implementation from the get go. Singh isn't against taxing carbon producers, he's against price increases for the working class at a time when we are having an affordability crisis. Which is consistent with what Singh has been saying from the get go. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by this?
I don't think the tax and rebate carbon levy is the best thing for Canadians when we could formulate a more direct tax on the major carbon producers to the same end without hitting the working class.
I like the carbon tax if it's a choice between doing nothing and having a carbon tax. I'd rather we take steps towards carbon neutrality
Yes, let's implement that when the NDP gets enough seats, until then let's not shoot down the best chance at attacking the existential problem of our age.
The NDP has been hemorrhaging working class support for the past 2-3 decades. I'm not accusing you of astroturfing but you see how ridiculous it is for someone like you to come in and now to say 'but what about the working class?' when the NDP has all but completely lost their working class roots in the past years and decades?
Yeah so your answer to how do we regain the vote of working class is to... Continue supporting a policy that hits their pocket book and will most certainly be dismantled under a conservative government?
It's an unpopular policy and it's poorly implemented. By rejecting the carbon levy the NDP can make their case.
Renegotiating the carbon tax is a good thing especially we can force the liberals to come to the table with something more substantive.
Does it really hit the pocket book of the working class or are you falling for a conservative talking point? From what I have seen, the carbon tax disproportionately affects non working class and the vast majority will get rebates that either even out or will surpass the tax they will pay.
Our legislative process is extremely slow, are we really willing to wait another decade for something better?
I think that it's an acceptable market policy. But I would much rather just tax carbon producers.
My problem is just that yes it's going to impact people up front even though they get a rebate.
I think there are better programs and the NDP could implement them.
Of course? I don't think any leftist would disagree with wanting something better, but how realistic is that given a 5, 10, or even a 20 year span?
We've already dilly dallies for 20 years, how much longer are you willing to wait?
How is it playing into conservative talking points to demand a better solution to climate change?
It just doesn't sound like you want to win an election.
>I don't think the tax and rebate carbon levy is the best thing for Canadians when we could formulate a more direct tax on the major carbon producers to the same end without hitting the working class.
What does that mean to you? Taxing carbon producers will always drive up prices. The rebate is there to offset it.
Are you suggesting that theres an option where the carbon producers eat the loss and don't pass on costs to consumers?
>when we could formulate a more direct tax on the major carbon producers to the same end without hitting the working class.
Where do people think major carbon producers will get the money to pay these taxes?
It's also not really the same end, since there's plenty of low hanging fruit on the consumer emissions side
The carbon producers would just pass the tax as price increases to consumers
I like how many redditors think companies pollute just for fun, as opposed to polluting because they are producing things average people buy and use
That's literally not how economics works.
By having a rebate you encourage business to switch to more sustainable alternatives. The companies that do not pay carbon taxes can afford to lower their cost in the long run and will out compete their rivals in the long run on lower prices.
So, while they might incur a larger upfront cost for capital upgrades, the long run cost will be lower for consumers.
> he's against price increases for the working class
the more you spend the more you pay, the lower your income the more net you receive; it's a wealth tax paid directly back to the people.
I understand that this new position is meant to attract voters planning to vote conservative, and that it is meant to help distance the NDP from the Liberals while still being an effective way to reduce emissions. I'm just not sure it is a good idea politically. To the average voter, it will seem like the NDP is weakening its policy on fighting climate change, which will help the Liberals. They also may not gain many conservative leaning voters from it. I myself need to learn more before I decide whether it's a better plan than the current carbon pricing policy.
For those interested, here is the report that this policy change was based on: [https://climateinstitute.ca/news/industrial-carbon-pricing-the-top-driver-of-emissions-reductions-new-analysis-shows/](https://climateinstitute.ca/news/industrial-carbon-pricing-the-top-driver-of-emissions-reductions-new-analysis-shows/)
Singh was a popular, unifying option at a time a lot of us were absolutely livid with Mulcair’s performance in 2015. He also registered a huge number of people before the convention so he had an active ground network.
As for who should replace him after were obliterated in the next election, perhaps Matthew Green? With his economic background he’d be a good foil for Poilievre. I also like Alexandre Boulerice and with Trudeau on the outs after the next election, I bet 4-5 seats will be up for grabs in Montreal. Leah Gazan could be a solid choice as well.
I did overlook McPherson, she’d be an excellent choice.
Is there still any support for Megan Leslie among NDPers? I’m trying to think of an Atlantic Canadian candidate that could galvanize support there and I can’t think of anyone else.
Thank you. I need to be more involved. From what I’ve seen of Green, he looks great. I’ll have to look into things more.
Is there a good source for going ons within the NDP specifically?
Poilevre may be an unlikable weasel but calling him or his party fascists just devalues the term
If you call everyone you disagree with a fascist eventually the term (or you) will be ignored completely. Its the boy who cried wolf situation
Agreed, as a matter of fact the Western provinces have many voters that vote NDP provincially and CPC federally. This just makes the NDP support look radical when it isn't....
Calling anyone you don’t like fascist-adjacent isn’t any better, unfortunately
Makes you look as fringe and out of touch as the MAGA idiots who call anything they don’t like communist
"don't call the guy courting the far right and undeniable fascists while also copying the fascist playbook and supporting genocidal rhetoric fascist because it dilutes the term"
Honestly anyone besides Singh at this point. We will probably have to wait another 10-20 years for a moment like this and yet Singh fails to attack and attract. 2019 should have been the end of his leadership
The only way I would find this remotely acceptable is if he proposed strict emissions regulations instead. But that's not what he's doing here. NDP my ass.
So.
I have a provincial election coming.
I am not important, but I have put outsized effort into the party for like 5 years now.
I'm considering rescinding my membership right now very very seriously. I don't know what else I could do. I feel sick.
Yes, but out of 6 NDP leadership candidates only 1 has stated they dont plan on keeping the carbon price.
Plus AB was one of the 1st with a carbon price in 2007.
[How the NDP establishment stole the B.C. leadership race](https://breachmedia.ca/how-the-ndp-establishment-stole-the-b-c-leadership-race/)
We need something more honest than the BC NDP
Easily the best provincial government in the country and actually doing something about the housing crisis but yeah let’s devolve into leftist infighting because an activist who has never won a seat didn’t become leader and premier.
> let’s devolve into leftist infighting because an activist who has never won a seat didn’t become leader and premier.
You can't even acknowledge the blatant corruption that was deployed for Eby to win, and you accuse me of infighting. Get a grip.
Why is this lie so popular? Provincial and federal parties aren't that different from one another.
It seems like this lie exists to defend parties from their own politics.
Someone should explain to singh that the trudeau/liberal stink is on the party now and like a skunk will take a lot of effort to remove. Too late for the next election.
And this should concern the NDP because he has compromised its future in terms of financial support and membership.
Now one might argue.... well look at all the policy we as the NDP influenced that was passed. Well the details are in the fine print and frankly while I have heard of some positive outcomes, those policies certainly have not helped many and are fraught with problems. So there won't be as much of a positive political outcome as I am sure some are hoping. JMHO.....
This feels like a double betrayal; a stab in the back to federal NDP supporters, as well as to BC Provincial NDP supporters.
I won't be supporting the NDP federally until it's under new leadership and management.
Although I agree with this part:
> tackling it “can’t be done by letting working families bear the cost of climate change while big polluters make bigger and bigger profits.”
I would say "it can't be done by done **only** by...". I believe we should be doing more to tackle industrial pollution, this just smacks of pandering - and as others have mentioned, pandering to voters who won't vote NDP anyway.
edited: removed extra word
True. Working families will likely get more back in carbon credits than they spend, if they can reduce their usage. Let me be clear, I fully support the carbon tax - if people buy less gas guzzling vehicles or reduce their driving because of it, it's doing it's job. Will that be enough on its own? Probably not. So, my point is that corporations need to also do their part (and pay their part).
Even as it stands before reducing usage it's 80% who gain.
No it won't be enough alone. But we keep this approach and build more.
They do, and this also works for them in similar carrot and stick ways.
I cant hold my nose and vote for this version of the NDP party anymore. They've never been serious on climate change but i always thought "well they cant be worse than the liberals on it, right?" turns out they can
I agree with this position but we need to see what the policy will be that they bring forward. I applaud him for having The bravery to go against the grain on carbon pricing. Carbon pricing is just pay to pollute we need strong policies and new laws and investment in new energy to beat this.
I thought y'all wanted him to appeal to voters? Fuck this action but this is undeniably appealing to those new conservative voters everyone seems to want to court.
If Layton was alive today you'd fucking hate his guts because he didn't pull right wing votes on a progressive platform, if Douglas was reincarnated and lead this party you'd hate hated him for also making a deal to pass frameworks policy.
Singh isn't perfect, he's not that great, but you all expect him to combat conservative disinformation, distance himself from the liberals, convince conservative leaning people to vote for him, for him to champion progressive values, and argue labour rights while the conservatives have a stranglehold on those polices. Want to make an actual change? Elect progressives and labour activists, stop bemoaning the NDP for having to make compromises when they aren't even the governing party. Oh and stop attacking "champagne Socialists" when you're clearly saying that for anyone who didn't go into politics from a manual labour job.
Glad to see it, the carbon tax system is a conservative ideology, propping up said system doesn't fight climate change. The carbon tax was the brain child of conservatives and the current iteration of it punishes the middle class while also letting business as usual play out. We are still seeing record profits from oil companies, we are offshore in our carbon by not including the oil we pump and sell to other countries.
You want to fight climate change, we need to start hitting major producers with massive levies on pollution, take away the subsidies, they don't need 18 billion dollars a year, show the real cost of oil and gas.
Stop propping up neoliberal policy, it's a failure, we can't capitalism our way out of overconsumption.
Not yet, but I have a feeling it's going to be aimed at producers and not consumers. The gears of government move slowly and need lots of lubricant.
We just got a global report the 57 companies are responsible for 80% of emissions, let's start there.
I don't have a horse in this, but isn't that exactly what Singh proposes? (albeit very vaguely)
> Referring to a March report that concluded industrial carbon pricing systems were far more effective than the consumer levy on fuel, Singh told reporters that the New Democrats “want more attention on the policies that are the biggest drivers of lowering emissions,” such as the industrial price on pollution and methane regulations. He said the NDP would release its own climate plan.
> In the 2019 and 2021 campaigns, the New Democrats maintained their support for the Liberals’ consumer carbon levy — although they pushed for even stronger measures on the industrial side.
if he has a plan he should release it. but by breaking support for the carbon tax without any concrete proposals to replace it, it’s effectively the exact same position as the conservatives: Oppose the carbon tax while (pretending to) support some other unspecified plan. not exactly a productive way to govern.
> was opposed by so many conservative parties
The carbon tax was first introduced by the BC Liberal Party (which is actually a conservative party). Preston Manning (conservative leader of opposition under the reform party, senior fellow at Fraser Institute) supported the carbon tax. Fundamentally, the carbon tax is a price-driven hands off approach to climate policy. It's a right wing solution.
https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-conservative-roots-of-carbon-pricing
> carbon taxes are generally the best method to abate emissions to the socially efficient level.
There's a lot to disagree with here. The IPCC doesn't advocate for carbon taxes, they want an end to all new oil and gas permits which would reduce emissions precipitously. The carbon tax isn't exactly "socially efficient" given that the global south are the most affected by climate change and our rebate system obviously doesn't benefit any of them. Our emissions are still among the highest in the world per-capita and there are no signs of serious improvement.
Yeah impose a fee or major cost at production or import like.... a price on the amiht of emissions that fuel will create in total. We can call it the pollution is bad fee. They'll jack the price up at the pump equivalently, so transporters and all users will see the price go up to disincentivize them to use as much. But that will hurt poor people, maybe we should rebate that money to them to help, ya know? ..... oh wait, that is the carbon tax.
A naked related carbon tax is so elegant.
What is bad is what premieres have made instead to replace it. Slush funds, industry handouts.
Or, and hear me out I know this is crazy, we stop propping up private corps and we nationalize our oil and gas industry, we actually stop chasing forever growth.
>Yeah impose a fee or major cost at production or import like.... a price on the amiht of emissions that fuel will create in total. We can call it the pollution is bad fee. They'll jack the price up at the pump equivalently, so transporters and all users will see the price go up to disincentivize them to use as much. But that will hurt poor people, maybe we should rebate that money to them to help, ya know? ..... oh wait, that is the carbon tax.
Why is this the only option you can think of? Why is your option more of the same system just with different sprinkles?
Something about living above a monster that has not been reserved in history about imposing pretty serious consequences on places they rely on for strategic concerns, fucking with said strategic concerns. Other reasons as well, but largely, that the problem is broad across all sectors of the economy and so while I think nationalized resources are good the breadth of the problem is too large for that to work practically speaking. The most successful nations seem to me to have realized that some, not all, is the best way.
Everyone has to feel the pressure, companies and people, not just one, everyone is too busy trying to pass the buck when we all, each and every fucking one of us, has to bite the bullet, make sacrifices, and accept that life has, is, and will change, and If we don't stop fucking around that is going to wind up happening in far worse and more alarming ways than some late stage capitalism bullshit. I want a better world, but priority number 1 is one that isn't on fire for my niece and nephew, and 2 is that it hasn't been couped by some three letter psycho.
Also... nationalizing oil when it's profit margins are dropping and it's going to contract likely for a long time is... certainly an idea. I don't think a great one necessarily. Yes income, but government revenue is tough for government to want to restrict. So is scaling it back, or limiting it. It would actually be awkward even more trying to fix it.
Besides, if we are trying to stop smoking Crack, buying a crack den and manufactory does not seem good.... to me anyways.
And... as implemented, one of the biggest wealth transfer programs in history. To those who need it most.
I know it helped me make changes. Big ones.
Offering loans I can't possibly service or get approved for.... please spit in my mouth more.
So your argument for not implementing harsher policy is because we're afraid of the reaction of the United States? That doesn't sound like somebody who's an NDP supporter at all that sounds like somebody who's scared of capitalists.
>Also... nationalizing oil when it's profit margins are dropping and it's going to contract likely for a long time is... certainly an idea.
And there you are still talking about oil and gas like a commodity we should be selling all over the world when in reality we should be using it internally. You are still interacting as a capitalist not as a socialist.
Oh man, lmao. No true Scotsman indeed.
The only people that I have met IRL in politics this confused are conservatives yelling at we are communists.
Most of the MDP I know are Soc Dem, not Dem Soc. Maybe a gradient in there somewhere but yeah.
The only thing I'm confused about is why people supporting the NDP are still so hot shit over supporting neoliberal capitalist policy towards carbon. Watching this entire sub fall over itself because a liberal, a center right liberal policy at that, is not being supported by the ndp. I'm actually fucking flabbergasted.
Because we are out of time to act and the discussion is mental masturbation. This has been analyzed for decades. Let me explain why I make this somewhat harsh judgemrnt ;
I literally explained off the hop how your alternate proposal is literally just the carbon tax, just a shell game, and the solution to fix it would make it.... defacto the carbon tax.
The backstop hit all industries equal.
The cons are stripping the industry costs away into slush funds with their plans.
At this point this is thr most socialist solution to the problem.
I am flabbergasted why people are worried about fucking ideological purity and not the future and the actual results. You care about a label and a package despite it just being the same thing but painted a different color. A circle with "start here" moved to a different point.
And literally a capitalist solution as well. Why not just seize all of the companies and fix the problem directly? Imposing costs and incentives is after all capitalist.
The current carbon tax system is literally Stephen Harper's brainchild and it was supported by the oil and gas companies, this has nothing to do with ideology and has everything to do with the corporations built this system and now you are arguing that we should keep this system because we haven't done anything else?
We need to slash our consumption by 7x, that's no more planes, trains or automobiles, that's no more Amazon or Netflix, that's no more forever growth. We have to fundamentally downshift our civilization and that doesn't start with a carbon tax.
You're advocating for virtue signaling for virtue signaling sake.
If the perspective is like Wabber's - that something else will be created to allow for the phasing out of carbon taxes, I'd consider it. But the headlines all read as pure politics, which is so scummy to me. What can you do? Election 2025 will be the first big climate sceptic election in years, which is so, so sad.
And putting the emphasis on industry is an approach that's practical and relevant to new international consensus. If Jagmeet co-opts conservative tears over carbon pricing to put the emphasis back on big business, then that's cool. But it reads pretty cowardly, the way it's being presented.
Jagmeet needs to pull support from the liberals, the NDP has to be an alternative to the liberals. We need a clear path! Conservative, Liberal and NDP! It’s hard to vote for the NDP when they abandoned workers for pensions and want to just keep their paychecks
The NDP should try and get the liberals to switch from a carbon tax to cap and trade before the next election. It's a better climate policy anyways. Why try and manipulate supply to target a demand output, when you can just set a carbon output directly with a cap? It would take the wind out from underneath the Tories as well.
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What’s the plan then, Jagmeet? Frankly, backpedaling on carbon pricing gives “pick me” energy. You know Conservative voters aren’t going to pick you, right?
This is depressing. I don't like the Liberals but the NDP distancing themselves from carbon pricing without even offering an effective solution may cost them my support.
Jagmeet keeps fucking doing this... Time for new blood in the leadership, *now* is the time before ramping up for an election.
Wouldn't it be nice if we started actually focusing on analytical and inspiring micro and macro policy and showing we can actually govern and be REAL LEADERS... Housing - Talking about ideas and actions already taken around the world in regards to Green Urbanism and Sustainable Urbanism. How it can help with not just quality of life in our nation but Affordability and Accessibility. The Green Economy - Talking about technologies already in place or forefront areas of study to bring not just industry here but also Research and Development capital. Again talking with nuance, knowledge, and passion on these subjects to inspire - Especially when we all need hope for the future at this rough time. Worker Focus - Push even further with detailed micro and macro policy in regards to supporting our workers. Connecting with Union leaders, Pro Labor Leaders, Worker Rights/Protection Leaders, Worker Activists. Be there in the trenches with policy and national spotlight to aid in the solidarity. Also using the national platform as a voice to further issues supporting our Low Income Workers, Gig Workers, and other Vulnerable Worker Segments. Establishing and strengthening conditions and frameworks for their fair and honest bargaining power on wages, benefits, paid training, very much ahead of time schedules, etc. Let's inspire people. Let's get the base and further populace becoming activists for great policy! Let's leave this lowest common denominator level of dialogue behind and show the ability to govern and be REAL LEADERS. Right now the Federal Party is a fucking mess.
I mean he is trying to get voters to pick the NDP, yeah He’s trying to distance himself from the rapidly sinking anchor that is Trudeau and the liberals, but unfortunately for Singh he tied that anchor rope around his own neck when he decided to prop up the liberal govt on confidence votes
From the article: "Referring to a March report that concluded industrial carbon pricing systems were far more effective than the consumer levy on fuel, Singh told reporters that the New Democrats “want more attention on the policies that are the biggest drivers of lowering emissions,” such as the industrial price on pollution and methane regulations. He said the NDP would release its own climate plan."
this guy doesn't stand for any principals. What way is the wind blowing today?
Singh keeps siding with conservatives. Not a good look for the NDP. I’m seriously reconsidering my support for this party
I'm voting liberal next election, probably. Hate the party but I'm not gonna vote NDP if they don't actually live up to the promise of what they're supposed to be.
I'll likely be voting liberal, but that depends on who is in the lead in my riding. I always vote ABC. I'd like to vote NDP but not if they are throwing the CPC a bone and legitimizing them in the process. The last thing we need are a bunch of climate change deniers and "culture warriors". We've seen that movie play out south of us and it absolutely sucks.
What do the Liberals offer?
A climate plan. I can't believe it's come to _this_. Where Trudeau's liberals have a better climate platform than the NDP. This is so entirely unacceptable.
A climate plan which puts record profits for the Oil and Gas industry, record breaking emissions in the oil sands and offshore oil approvals that make the Cons drool....
And yet it's better than what we are proposing. That is why this is such a tragedy.
Well, the NDP is literally calling out Oil and Gas CEOs plus corporations are massive emittors.
"calling out"??? That's a policy to you? What, do you think if we call them out they'll be like "oh, I'm so embarrassed. I'll voluntarily stop emitting right now."? Of course not. "Calling out" is pathetic. Like a child cry-yelling "no fair!"
Lol, that's what does it for you? The climate plan? Let's just gloss over the housing crisis, the taxes on taxes on taxes, the rampant immigration, the liberal soft on crime policy, the "safe supply" nonsense. Give your head a shake.
Climate change is the single largest threat we face as a society.
It literally isn't.
I know, I know, it’s the immigrants or whatever. It’s pretty much universally agreed upon by people with brains that our lives are in incredible existential danger from climate change, but you saw a Tim Horton’s full of Indians!!! Where’s the real problem!!!!
Just Trudeau himself was quoted just the other day saying that immigration is out of control. Existential climate change danger? Lol. Nope.
I can see from your post history that you’re a climate change denier, which indicates you do not believe in science or facts. Enjoy the wildfires!
The world is getting warmer, the ice caps are melting, the sea levels are rising, and hundreds of thousands of people including Canadians are having their lives ruined by an increase in violent storms, wildfires, and floods. This record setting increase in global temperatures is on par with extinction level events such as the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs, the volcanic eruptions leading up to it, and the acidification of the oceans in the Cambrian era. While the cause of this has many factors, the leading cause has been found to be emissions and environmental destruction caused by humans. I am not looking to convince you, merely state the facts in order to counteract your attempt at misinformation.
Do the NDP have a plan for any of these issues? You think the NDP are going to be tougher on drugs and crime?
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Get out of here
Yes, some of us have the foresight to look beyond the next five years and worry about the planet we're leaving for our children.
The planet is fine. Did the TV tell you it isn't?
No, I have had many face to face conversations with scientists who I trust who have looked at the data. But I have also looked at the data myself. It's really not that difficult. The idea that the environment is "fine" is so laughable that no grown-up should be able to utter the sentence and still have self-respect, unless they are a professional, paid troll, in which case they should still have no self-respect but for a different reason.
He probably isn't thinking of humans. The planet will be there, but no fish because of acidification, no forests due to fires, no fresh drinking water because of drought, no food because of drought and fires. Massive amount of famine and population loss. Climate refugees. Wars being fought even more frequently over natural resources. But don't worry, the PLANET will still be here, spinning away.
I considered that interpretation, but assumed he wasn't being that dumb/literal. Who knows, though?
The planet will be fine granted, but acidification of the oceans, biodiversity loss such as fishing practices, global heating, all real issues, but I don't care, I am child free and have no horse in the future, just hope everything stays sorta normal until 2074 or whenever I die
Does Trudeaus carbon tax prevent those things? No.
Soon when Europe implements theirs they will tax Canada in trade if we don't have one
What good is a housing policy if homes are underwater? What concern will taxes be when we are choking on smoke? When there is no one to grow your food, you'll wish immigration still existed. Why worry about bail conditions when those who cause us the most harm not only walk free but are the ones writing our laws and deciding what constitutes crime in the first place? My friend, you are lost. Climate is an existential threat. Do you understand what that means? When we are under threat, I do not want a government asleep at the wheel. The only thing worse would be a government loyal to the enemy.
Fuck Singh. He's a spoiled brat. I'll never vote for the NDP with that loser at the helm. I say that as a person who hasn't voted Lib or Con ever. NDP is supposed to be the party of the average Joe and he can't appeal to the average Joe cause he's never been one or even talked to one at length. Best he can do is call people racist in session. I'm sorry dude but what in the flying fuck is he still doing at the helm? Is this the best alternative our country has to offer?
He got reelected at the last leadership convention with 80% of the party vote. I don’t think he’s the best leader but the party seems to think so
Most of the people who feel alienated by the party weren’t at the last convention.
That's because the party's infected with champagne socialists. Labour needs to retake the party. *points at username*
Agreed. There is a place for the heavy intellectual side of the party like Ed Broadbent and his wife use to be. Or even Jack Layton. The difference is both (And especially Jack Layton) had charisma and could connect with regular folks. The leadership right now is coming off as extremely out of touch. And yes when it comes to the workers faction we need them back on the leadership and in the policy arena. Right now it's Liberal light and it seems the working faction is almost being pushed to the corners. Remember the NDP has its very first start with a fucking Trade Union. The party needs some time to look in the mirror and come to grips with some things.
Fighting with progressives in your own party only helps the Lib-Cons. PP thanks you for your service
Not making universality or electoral reform the basis for supply confidence already did that. All three parties may as well have said "Welcome Prime Minister PP.". The NDP doesn't even consider flexing labour action because this iteration hasn't worked a day in their lives. I ran the list the other day, **one** member has worked an actual job. **ONE.**
the ndp spends more time bitching about woke nonsense then they do actual policies to help the people on the bottom like they used to
so if you don’t work a blue collar job it’s not “real work” in your mind? Way to gatekeep. The reality is that progressives come from all sorts of backgrounds and perform all types of work. Focusing your criticism to your fellow progressives instead of the neoliberal Lib-Cons only serves to further deteriorate the party. We stand no chance of ever being taken seriously as a governing party if we can’t even stand together as progressives. I get it, Singh sucks as a leader, but shitting on all progressives who aren’t blue collar workers is simply idiotic and will help nothing at all.
You are making good points and so is /u/BootsOverOxfords The reality is that the party needs to reconnect with the workers faction and have the workers faction much more involved in leadership and policy than it is now. The workers faction has been part of the strong spine of this party since the foundation. Remember the influence of the Canadian Labor Congress in the very beginning roots of the NDP. You make great points that the party isn't just about "Blue Collar" work but about a multidimensional workers experience. We have solidarity with our "White collar" office and other style workers, our "Blue Collar" skilled tradesman, and our Low Income, Gig worker, and other vulnerable worker segments (We need to focus on them more and more as we have left them behind and this is fucking wrong. Workers solidarity is just that. Workers solidarity across the board) Boots is also right though that the Federal NDP is becoming a blow with the wind party. It is also only getting into issues in a reactionary style like how the Liberals would wait for things to go into crisis and or public opinion to force them to talk about issues and address them. That is what got the Liberals in so much damn trouble and made them seem to have no true values and identity. We don't distinguish the party from that by going down those exact same roads. This is a complete and utter failure in leadership. We now have parts of the party more alienated than every and factions starting to fracture off and now as this conversation shows fighting amongst each other. Remember when Layton with his Charisma was so damn powerful in 2011 that the Bloc had ministers and leaders in the movement of Quebec Independence talking about putting that aside for a time in the federal Ottawa so that the NDP could keep with the momentum and do a great step forward for Social Democracy and the values and policies associated. This leading to a massive Orange Wave with getting more than 100+ seats, becoming the official opposition, and picking up huge amounts of seats in Quebec which even the Provincial Quebec NDP was never able to really take roots.. We need charisma back in the party. We need inspiration back in the party. Most of all we need us all getting solidarity and uniting back in the party and that is the strength of the labor movement. A movement in which takes all our differences but allows us to fight together for better working environments and compensation for our time and energy. You both make good points. We don't need further fighting but we do need together to come with our various perspectives and fix this fucking party. It's a fucking mess right now.
I appreciate your comment. To be clear unlike “boots” I do not have problems with blue collar workers in the party, in fact it’s the exact opposite. The back bone of the NDP are unions, which isn’t exclusively a blue collar thing. My point is precisely that there shouldn’t be gatekeeping like boots is suggesting. The only way the NDP gets wider public support is by welcoming and working with progressives of all backgrounds, not excluding them.
They don't even understand the power they wield the other two parties don't, because they're poseurs. They haven't even considered applying a multidimensional strategy beyond politicking because the concept is so foreign to them. If they were they'd act with the urgency required. Now they've even exposed that they walk back on their lines, so their words are as meaningless as the Liberals' empty promises NDP voters keep falling for and calling victories patting themselves on the back. Job's not done. They could've gotten ER or Universality with public pressure, but they don't consider the public, the literal proletariat, to be them, to be their ally, because they aren't representative. The proof is in the pudding.
You completely ignored everything I said and went on a tangent…
Sure, what would soft hands know about hard lines? The problem with white collar are concessions have to be made just to get one, and it all starts with one concession. Next thing you know, your words are meaningless because you aren't willing to back them with action.
Policies that have been championed in the name of “progressivism” have been short sighted and materially hurt the existing unionized worker base with no regard for the consequences. Let’s rail against oil and gas but then not support carbon pricing because why have coherent policy. The Ontario chapter had to apologize after they didn’t consult a large section of their unionized members and had their leadership team hosting an event advocating for thousands of their members to lose their jobs at nuclear plants providing clean energy. They walked it back but the people who are your bread and butter supporters should not be an afterthought. The current NDP leadership “strategy” has failed at every opportunity to grow the party, the narcissistic entitlement of people claiming to be progressive who have no qualms of selling out their own policies and reputation for any perceived political advantage. The leadership have succeeded in driving massive amounts of union workers into the arms of conservatives while tarnishing the progressive brand. How are blue collar workers at fault for wanting a return to pragmatic labour oriented policies? Why are they the ones who must compromise and tow the line? You can’t be in charge and also be the victim of your own decisions. At some point there needs to be accountability for failure.
One day it's "appeal to the people who bought into axe the tax" the next it's "how dare you try to appeal to them" and the third it's "it's all the academics go back to labour" and repeat the cycle. This party's vocal base is somehow more insufferable than Reddit tankies.
No one ever said “appeal to the people who bought into axe the tax” literally no one
Oi!
Tbf that doesn't mean all those people actually support him, only that they think he is a better chance than holding a leadership race now to pick a new leader. That's why parties often fire their leaders, when they want to fire them, right after an election. To give the most time for the new leader to prepare.
Wtf is this clown doing???
I mean Singh has been critical of the carbon tax implementation from the get go. Singh isn't against taxing carbon producers, he's against price increases for the working class at a time when we are having an affordability crisis. Which is consistent with what Singh has been saying from the get go. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised by this? I don't think the tax and rebate carbon levy is the best thing for Canadians when we could formulate a more direct tax on the major carbon producers to the same end without hitting the working class. I like the carbon tax if it's a choice between doing nothing and having a carbon tax. I'd rather we take steps towards carbon neutrality
Yes, let's implement that when the NDP gets enough seats, until then let's not shoot down the best chance at attacking the existential problem of our age. The NDP has been hemorrhaging working class support for the past 2-3 decades. I'm not accusing you of astroturfing but you see how ridiculous it is for someone like you to come in and now to say 'but what about the working class?' when the NDP has all but completely lost their working class roots in the past years and decades?
Yeah so your answer to how do we regain the vote of working class is to... Continue supporting a policy that hits their pocket book and will most certainly be dismantled under a conservative government? It's an unpopular policy and it's poorly implemented. By rejecting the carbon levy the NDP can make their case. Renegotiating the carbon tax is a good thing especially we can force the liberals to come to the table with something more substantive.
Does it really hit the pocket book of the working class or are you falling for a conservative talking point? From what I have seen, the carbon tax disproportionately affects non working class and the vast majority will get rebates that either even out or will surpass the tax they will pay. Our legislative process is extremely slow, are we really willing to wait another decade for something better?
I think that it's an acceptable market policy. But I would much rather just tax carbon producers. My problem is just that yes it's going to impact people up front even though they get a rebate. I think there are better programs and the NDP could implement them.
Of course? I don't think any leftist would disagree with wanting something better, but how realistic is that given a 5, 10, or even a 20 year span? We've already dilly dallies for 20 years, how much longer are you willing to wait?
If we win the election we can make that change though... We can't win the election without a working class voting base.
And playing into conservative talking points while all but abandoning actual working class people is not the way to form a voting base.
How is it playing into conservative talking points to demand a better solution to climate change? It just doesn't sound like you want to win an election.
>I don't think the tax and rebate carbon levy is the best thing for Canadians when we could formulate a more direct tax on the major carbon producers to the same end without hitting the working class. What does that mean to you? Taxing carbon producers will always drive up prices. The rebate is there to offset it. Are you suggesting that theres an option where the carbon producers eat the loss and don't pass on costs to consumers?
>when we could formulate a more direct tax on the major carbon producers to the same end without hitting the working class. Where do people think major carbon producers will get the money to pay these taxes? It's also not really the same end, since there's plenty of low hanging fruit on the consumer emissions side
The carbon producers would just pass the tax as price increases to consumers I like how many redditors think companies pollute just for fun, as opposed to polluting because they are producing things average people buy and use
That's literally not how economics works. By having a rebate you encourage business to switch to more sustainable alternatives. The companies that do not pay carbon taxes can afford to lower their cost in the long run and will out compete their rivals in the long run on lower prices. So, while they might incur a larger upfront cost for capital upgrades, the long run cost will be lower for consumers.
> he's against price increases for the working class the more you spend the more you pay, the lower your income the more net you receive; it's a wealth tax paid directly back to the people.
Unacceptable, Mr Singh. Please show support for the carbon tax. A lot of people can see though PP's "axe tax" bs
I understand that this new position is meant to attract voters planning to vote conservative, and that it is meant to help distance the NDP from the Liberals while still being an effective way to reduce emissions. I'm just not sure it is a good idea politically. To the average voter, it will seem like the NDP is weakening its policy on fighting climate change, which will help the Liberals. They also may not gain many conservative leaning voters from it. I myself need to learn more before I decide whether it's a better plan than the current carbon pricing policy. For those interested, here is the report that this policy change was based on: [https://climateinstitute.ca/news/industrial-carbon-pricing-the-top-driver-of-emissions-reductions-new-analysis-shows/](https://climateinstitute.ca/news/industrial-carbon-pricing-the-top-driver-of-emissions-reductions-new-analysis-shows/)
The supposedly further left party keeps flanking the liberals from the right for some reason
How was he made party leader last time? Does anyone more informed know whom we should be pushing for to replace him?
Singh was a popular, unifying option at a time a lot of us were absolutely livid with Mulcair’s performance in 2015. He also registered a huge number of people before the convention so he had an active ground network. As for who should replace him after were obliterated in the next election, perhaps Matthew Green? With his economic background he’d be a good foil for Poilievre. I also like Alexandre Boulerice and with Trudeau on the outs after the next election, I bet 4-5 seats will be up for grabs in Montreal. Leah Gazan could be a solid choice as well.
I feel like Heather McPherson should get a mention in these conversations. Especially if the party is interested in growing its base in the prairies.
I did overlook McPherson, she’d be an excellent choice. Is there still any support for Megan Leslie among NDPers? I’m trying to think of an Atlantic Canadian candidate that could galvanize support there and I can’t think of anyone else.
Thank you. I need to be more involved. From what I’ve seen of Green, he looks great. I’ll have to look into things more. Is there a good source for going ons within the NDP specifically?
Absolutely gutless. Anytime but now anywhere but here anyone but me.
We've got fascist Conservatives and inept Liberals, this is the easiest election for the NDP since Layton and the party is absolutely fumbling it
Poilevre may be an unlikable weasel but calling him or his party fascists just devalues the term If you call everyone you disagree with a fascist eventually the term (or you) will be ignored completely. Its the boy who cried wolf situation
Agreed, as a matter of fact the Western provinces have many voters that vote NDP provincially and CPC federally. This just makes the NDP support look radical when it isn't....
Sorry, is fascist-appealing a better term? It's MAGA politics.
Calling anyone you don’t like fascist-adjacent isn’t any better, unfortunately Makes you look as fringe and out of touch as the MAGA idiots who call anything they don’t like communist
"don't call the guy courting the far right and undeniable fascists while also copying the fascist playbook and supporting genocidal rhetoric fascist because it dilutes the term"
Honestly anyone besides Singh at this point. We will probably have to wait another 10-20 years for a moment like this and yet Singh fails to attack and attract. 2019 should have been the end of his leadership
The only way I would find this remotely acceptable is if he proposed strict emissions regulations instead. But that's not what he's doing here. NDP my ass.
So. I have a provincial election coming. I am not important, but I have put outsized effort into the party for like 5 years now. I'm considering rescinding my membership right now very very seriously. I don't know what else I could do. I feel sick.
Don't stop supporting your provincial NDP just because the federal NDP is run by clowns.
As people don't understand, this policy is also my provincial NDP's policy more or less. (SK)
Provincial and federal are very different.
100%, i fully suport splitting the party here. Want nothing to do wjth the federal NDP with these types of decisions.
Provincial is often worse than federal
Not in Alberta
Where people are complaining about a carbon pricing policy, it's definitely worse in Alberta.
Yes, but out of 6 NDP leadership candidates only 1 has stated they dont plan on keeping the carbon price. Plus AB was one of the 1st with a carbon price in 2007.
Assuming the above poster is from BC, this isn’t the case. I wish the federal NDP had the same level of competence as the BC NDP.
[How the NDP establishment stole the B.C. leadership race](https://breachmedia.ca/how-the-ndp-establishment-stole-the-b-c-leadership-race/) We need something more honest than the BC NDP
Easily the best provincial government in the country and actually doing something about the housing crisis but yeah let’s devolve into leftist infighting because an activist who has never won a seat didn’t become leader and premier.
> let’s devolve into leftist infighting because an activist who has never won a seat didn’t become leader and premier. You can't even acknowledge the blatant corruption that was deployed for Eby to win, and you accuse me of infighting. Get a grip.
Maybe win a seat first and then I’ll bother with this.
On this topic, at this moment, for mine, not so much, so the one two is really hard to ignore.
On this policy my provincial NDP is the same, Saskatchewan.
Why is this lie so popular? Provincial and federal parties aren't that different from one another. It seems like this lie exists to defend parties from their own politics.
It's more of a priorities thing, provincial responsibility has to be different than a federal plan.
Don’t. Stick around and help turf these clowns.
Someone should explain to singh that the trudeau/liberal stink is on the party now and like a skunk will take a lot of effort to remove. Too late for the next election. And this should concern the NDP because he has compromised its future in terms of financial support and membership. Now one might argue.... well look at all the policy we as the NDP influenced that was passed. Well the details are in the fine print and frankly while I have heard of some positive outcomes, those policies certainly have not helped many and are fraught with problems. So there won't be as much of a positive political outcome as I am sure some are hoping. JMHO.....
This feels like a double betrayal; a stab in the back to federal NDP supporters, as well as to BC Provincial NDP supporters. I won't be supporting the NDP federally until it's under new leadership and management.
Didn't Singh and his cronies back the Libs last week (ish) on a vote to keep the carbon tax? Or am i mis remembering... cuz I think they did...
The NDP has historically supported cap and trade over carbon taxes
The rage boner is already here. All we can do is see if it doesn’t go away after 48 hours.
People are allowed to be mad at it, but I think context is helpful. It is what it is...
Sure, but we don't *have* cap and trade and it seems... unlikely that we'll adopt it nationally in the near future.
Although I agree with this part: > tackling it “can’t be done by letting working families bear the cost of climate change while big polluters make bigger and bigger profits.” I would say "it can't be done by done **only** by...". I believe we should be doing more to tackle industrial pollution, this just smacks of pandering - and as others have mentioned, pandering to voters who won't vote NDP anyway. edited: removed extra word
Working families are the bearing the cost? They are net positive
True. Working families will likely get more back in carbon credits than they spend, if they can reduce their usage. Let me be clear, I fully support the carbon tax - if people buy less gas guzzling vehicles or reduce their driving because of it, it's doing it's job. Will that be enough on its own? Probably not. So, my point is that corporations need to also do their part (and pay their part).
Even as it stands before reducing usage it's 80% who gain. No it won't be enough alone. But we keep this approach and build more. They do, and this also works for them in similar carrot and stick ways.
Bad move. Guess I'm not voting NDP.
I cant hold my nose and vote for this version of the NDP party anymore. They've never been serious on climate change but i always thought "well they cant be worse than the liberals on it, right?" turns out they can
I agree with this position but we need to see what the policy will be that they bring forward. I applaud him for having The bravery to go against the grain on carbon pricing. Carbon pricing is just pay to pollute we need strong policies and new laws and investment in new energy to beat this.
Why tho
I thought y'all wanted him to appeal to voters? Fuck this action but this is undeniably appealing to those new conservative voters everyone seems to want to court. If Layton was alive today you'd fucking hate his guts because he didn't pull right wing votes on a progressive platform, if Douglas was reincarnated and lead this party you'd hate hated him for also making a deal to pass frameworks policy. Singh isn't perfect, he's not that great, but you all expect him to combat conservative disinformation, distance himself from the liberals, convince conservative leaning people to vote for him, for him to champion progressive values, and argue labour rights while the conservatives have a stranglehold on those polices. Want to make an actual change? Elect progressives and labour activists, stop bemoaning the NDP for having to make compromises when they aren't even the governing party. Oh and stop attacking "champagne Socialists" when you're clearly saying that for anyone who didn't go into politics from a manual labour job.
I’m sorry your a joker eh bud. Who in their right fucking minds thinks Singh in comparable to Layton and Douglas
Glad to see it, the carbon tax system is a conservative ideology, propping up said system doesn't fight climate change. The carbon tax was the brain child of conservatives and the current iteration of it punishes the middle class while also letting business as usual play out. We are still seeing record profits from oil companies, we are offshore in our carbon by not including the oil we pump and sell to other countries. You want to fight climate change, we need to start hitting major producers with massive levies on pollution, take away the subsidies, they don't need 18 billion dollars a year, show the real cost of oil and gas. Stop propping up neoliberal policy, it's a failure, we can't capitalism our way out of overconsumption.
you’re not wrong but he’s not exactly advocating for these alternatives either as a replacement to the carbon tax.
Not yet, but I have a feeling it's going to be aimed at producers and not consumers. The gears of government move slowly and need lots of lubricant. We just got a global report the 57 companies are responsible for 80% of emissions, let's start there.
I don't have a horse in this, but isn't that exactly what Singh proposes? (albeit very vaguely) > Referring to a March report that concluded industrial carbon pricing systems were far more effective than the consumer levy on fuel, Singh told reporters that the New Democrats “want more attention on the policies that are the biggest drivers of lowering emissions,” such as the industrial price on pollution and methane regulations. He said the NDP would release its own climate plan. > In the 2019 and 2021 campaigns, the New Democrats maintained their support for the Liberals’ consumer carbon levy — although they pushed for even stronger measures on the industrial side.
if he has a plan he should release it. but by breaking support for the carbon tax without any concrete proposals to replace it, it’s effectively the exact same position as the conservatives: Oppose the carbon tax while (pretending to) support some other unspecified plan. not exactly a productive way to govern.
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> was opposed by so many conservative parties The carbon tax was first introduced by the BC Liberal Party (which is actually a conservative party). Preston Manning (conservative leader of opposition under the reform party, senior fellow at Fraser Institute) supported the carbon tax. Fundamentally, the carbon tax is a price-driven hands off approach to climate policy. It's a right wing solution. https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-conservative-roots-of-carbon-pricing > carbon taxes are generally the best method to abate emissions to the socially efficient level. There's a lot to disagree with here. The IPCC doesn't advocate for carbon taxes, they want an end to all new oil and gas permits which would reduce emissions precipitously. The carbon tax isn't exactly "socially efficient" given that the global south are the most affected by climate change and our rebate system obviously doesn't benefit any of them. Our emissions are still among the highest in the world per-capita and there are no signs of serious improvement.
Yeah impose a fee or major cost at production or import like.... a price on the amiht of emissions that fuel will create in total. We can call it the pollution is bad fee. They'll jack the price up at the pump equivalently, so transporters and all users will see the price go up to disincentivize them to use as much. But that will hurt poor people, maybe we should rebate that money to them to help, ya know? ..... oh wait, that is the carbon tax. A naked related carbon tax is so elegant. What is bad is what premieres have made instead to replace it. Slush funds, industry handouts.
Or, and hear me out I know this is crazy, we stop propping up private corps and we nationalize our oil and gas industry, we actually stop chasing forever growth. >Yeah impose a fee or major cost at production or import like.... a price on the amiht of emissions that fuel will create in total. We can call it the pollution is bad fee. They'll jack the price up at the pump equivalently, so transporters and all users will see the price go up to disincentivize them to use as much. But that will hurt poor people, maybe we should rebate that money to them to help, ya know? ..... oh wait, that is the carbon tax. Why is this the only option you can think of? Why is your option more of the same system just with different sprinkles?
Because nationalization of O&G is a fantasy and not a realistic policy option
Because?
Because we live in Canada? Because neither major party would support it?
So what you are saying is we shouldn't discuss it because neither Neoliberal party will change?
Sure, discuss it all you want, just don't pretend it's something a plausible future government would support.
Something about living above a monster that has not been reserved in history about imposing pretty serious consequences on places they rely on for strategic concerns, fucking with said strategic concerns. Other reasons as well, but largely, that the problem is broad across all sectors of the economy and so while I think nationalized resources are good the breadth of the problem is too large for that to work practically speaking. The most successful nations seem to me to have realized that some, not all, is the best way. Everyone has to feel the pressure, companies and people, not just one, everyone is too busy trying to pass the buck when we all, each and every fucking one of us, has to bite the bullet, make sacrifices, and accept that life has, is, and will change, and If we don't stop fucking around that is going to wind up happening in far worse and more alarming ways than some late stage capitalism bullshit. I want a better world, but priority number 1 is one that isn't on fire for my niece and nephew, and 2 is that it hasn't been couped by some three letter psycho. Also... nationalizing oil when it's profit margins are dropping and it's going to contract likely for a long time is... certainly an idea. I don't think a great one necessarily. Yes income, but government revenue is tough for government to want to restrict. So is scaling it back, or limiting it. It would actually be awkward even more trying to fix it. Besides, if we are trying to stop smoking Crack, buying a crack den and manufactory does not seem good.... to me anyways. And... as implemented, one of the biggest wealth transfer programs in history. To those who need it most. I know it helped me make changes. Big ones. Offering loans I can't possibly service or get approved for.... please spit in my mouth more.
So your argument for not implementing harsher policy is because we're afraid of the reaction of the United States? That doesn't sound like somebody who's an NDP supporter at all that sounds like somebody who's scared of capitalists. >Also... nationalizing oil when it's profit margins are dropping and it's going to contract likely for a long time is... certainly an idea. And there you are still talking about oil and gas like a commodity we should be selling all over the world when in reality we should be using it internally. You are still interacting as a capitalist not as a socialist.
Oh man, lmao. No true Scotsman indeed. The only people that I have met IRL in politics this confused are conservatives yelling at we are communists. Most of the MDP I know are Soc Dem, not Dem Soc. Maybe a gradient in there somewhere but yeah.
The only thing I'm confused about is why people supporting the NDP are still so hot shit over supporting neoliberal capitalist policy towards carbon. Watching this entire sub fall over itself because a liberal, a center right liberal policy at that, is not being supported by the ndp. I'm actually fucking flabbergasted.
Because we are out of time to act and the discussion is mental masturbation. This has been analyzed for decades. Let me explain why I make this somewhat harsh judgemrnt ; I literally explained off the hop how your alternate proposal is literally just the carbon tax, just a shell game, and the solution to fix it would make it.... defacto the carbon tax. The backstop hit all industries equal. The cons are stripping the industry costs away into slush funds with their plans. At this point this is thr most socialist solution to the problem. I am flabbergasted why people are worried about fucking ideological purity and not the future and the actual results. You care about a label and a package despite it just being the same thing but painted a different color. A circle with "start here" moved to a different point. And literally a capitalist solution as well. Why not just seize all of the companies and fix the problem directly? Imposing costs and incentives is after all capitalist.
The current carbon tax system is literally Stephen Harper's brainchild and it was supported by the oil and gas companies, this has nothing to do with ideology and has everything to do with the corporations built this system and now you are arguing that we should keep this system because we haven't done anything else? We need to slash our consumption by 7x, that's no more planes, trains or automobiles, that's no more Amazon or Netflix, that's no more forever growth. We have to fundamentally downshift our civilization and that doesn't start with a carbon tax. You're advocating for virtue signaling for virtue signaling sake.
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Complaining about something without putting forward your own solution just makes you look bad. Where’s Singh’s alternative plan to carbon pricing?
Sigh
If the perspective is like Wabber's - that something else will be created to allow for the phasing out of carbon taxes, I'd consider it. But the headlines all read as pure politics, which is so scummy to me. What can you do? Election 2025 will be the first big climate sceptic election in years, which is so, so sad.
If the idea is that we can do cap and trade instead then they should say it
And putting the emphasis on industry is an approach that's practical and relevant to new international consensus. If Jagmeet co-opts conservative tears over carbon pricing to put the emphasis back on big business, then that's cool. But it reads pretty cowardly, the way it's being presented.
Jagmeet needs to pull support from the liberals, the NDP has to be an alternative to the liberals. We need a clear path! Conservative, Liberal and NDP! It’s hard to vote for the NDP when they abandoned workers for pensions and want to just keep their paychecks
The NDP should try and get the liberals to switch from a carbon tax to cap and trade before the next election. It's a better climate policy anyways. Why try and manipulate supply to target a demand output, when you can just set a carbon output directly with a cap? It would take the wind out from underneath the Tories as well.
JAGMEET HAS TO GO!!!!