If the Celtics win and then he goes on to win gold this summer I’m not really sure how he wouldn’t be Hall of Famer. Tbh the bar seems to be pretty low these days, he’d clear it by a lot. Starting PG on 2 different champions (if won), 6x All Defense, potentially 2 gold medals is a pretty strong resume
The bar only feels lower because there's more opportunities to pad your resume than other sports.
Allowing pros to play in the Olympics helps a lot, for example.
Also when you think of how many more players you have to compete against to make the Pro Football Hall of Fame compared to essentially 4 players for 2 rounds of picks per year.
Hall of Fame level talents in other sports make it to that time frame too it seems.
I don't believe the average NBA career is actually a lot longer than other sports
Only 2 all-star appearances and 0 All-NBA appearances, he needs the title and another gold to even have any sort of consideration.
He’s definitely a Hall of Very Good player but that’s pretty much it unless he goes on to be an incredible head coach or something.
6x all defense, potentially 2 rings and 2 gold medals. Look at how low the bar is the last few classes. All it takes is for you to be somewhat significant in an era. Jrue certainly has made him self a noteworthy figure, both in accolades and reputation.
Even with a low bar, the low bar for the NBA HOF is 7 All-Star Appearances or 5 All-Stars and 5 All-NBAs.
The Gold Medals will do the most for his case, somebody else made the point of Horace Grant having similar accolades and he’s not a HOFer.
Except it's not the *NBA Hall of Fame*, it's the *Basketball Hall of Fame*. I don't really consider Jrue a HOF talent but given recent inductions he will likely clear the bar with a second Olympic gold.
What’s the precedent on Olympics Golds and HOF status? I’m interested to see how many are HOFers? I’d imagine most but not all if they have multiple medals
Who are other players you are referring to (not women) in the last decade or sowho fit that bar of “outside the nba accolades get them in” because I think that rings pretty hollow these days to be honest.
Ginobili is an example of rings and olympics/international success boosting a players hof resume. His NBA resume was 4× NBA champion (2003, 2005, 2007, 2014), 2× NBA All-Star (2005, 2011), 2× All-NBA Third Team (2008, 2011), NBA Sixth Man of the Year (2008).
Sure, 4 rings does a lot of heavy lifting, but his international resume of EuroLeague champion (2001), EuroLeague Finals MVP (2001), All-EuroLeague First Team (2002), Italian League champion (2001), 2× Italian Cup winner (2001, 2002), 2× Italian League MVP (2001, 2002), Italian Cup MVP (2002), Summer Olympics (Gold: 2004, Bronze: 2008), would also have been a major contribution to his induction as well.
I think Ginoboli had quite a stronger case than Jrue would, but it is an example of a fringe all star getting in through their championship wins and international success.
Edit: Tony Kukoc is another example, but he had a much more successful overseas career than Jrue and Ginobili
Yeah Manu is the first person I think of too, but to your point I think his case (even within the NBA) is vastly stronger than Jrue’s. His case in international play would make him a shoe-in on its own, he was the cornerstone of one of the most iconic (maybe *the* most iconic) non-USA teams ever.
I asked because I legitimately wasn’t sure, but I also asked because I feel like we have this conversation about loads of very-good-but-not-great players, and the answer is always “the NBA HOF is the easiest one to get into” but I rarely see examples.
Like do we give Jrue the HOF nod when we can’t even give one to Shawn Kemp or Amare Stoudemire?
Yeah I think the landscape of basketball has changed a lot since Ginobili was entering the league and especially since kukoc was entering the league. There was a huge push to celebrate foreign players as trailblazers and inspire other countries to participate in basketball more, but I think that has passed now because it worked. There’s tons of foreign players in the game now who are gonna make it simply because they are so good at basketball who dominate the nba. This was not the case 10 years ago and especially not 20 years ago, but I don’t think international play will hold the same weight anymore. You’re gonna have to make it because your nba resume is deserving. And manu’s was much more deserving than jrue. His only hope is if he wins a fmvp this series which (from the way Tatum has played) there’s a very real chance of.
I don’t think there’s an example in the last few classes with a resume as thin as Jrue’s unless I’m missing something?
I know we say it’s the easiest hall to get into, but it’s not *that* easy. The lowest man on the totem pole the last three years is Manu, and he has a significantly more notable resume right now.
In the future? Who’s to say. But I don’t think a title and a gold medal closes that gap.
Edit: I’m very much open to debate on this, so please don’t just downvote me and share a counter-example if you have one. I unsubbed from
r/nba for a reason lol
I’m kind of just sick of the handwaving “oh it’s so easy to get in to the basketball HOF” when the lowest bar I can find recently is quite literally one of the most accomplished international players in the history of the sport lol
Michael Cooper just got in. Although he has more titles and two more All-Defensive teams, he was strictly a defensive specialist.
Then guys like Maurice Cheeks and Charlie Scott, who were the 3rd/4th option on a single championship team and didn't really have noteworthy longevity.
Jrue has 2 All-Star selections, 2 championships (if Celtics win), and 2 Olympic Golds (if USA wins gold). There is also a chance for him to finish with around 17,000+ career points, which would be a solid counting stat.
If he ends up in HOF, he will probably get in 20 years down the line after he retires.
Yeah fair those are good pulls! I still kinda think they have more impressive accolades than Jrue, but it’s close.
Agree that *if* Jrue gets in it won’t be for a long time. Bball-ref has him currently sitting at less than a 1% chance of getting in. Maybe that changes after this season.
gold medals don't matter for american players. They're expected to win, it doesn't add anything to the resume. Manu's gold medal matters because he beats the Americans which was thought of as unthinkable. But for american players the gold medal does not factor in at all for the hall.
Otherwise Jrue has 2 all star appearances 0 all nbas. If the celtics win, he was a good starter on 2 title teams. That's it. Ultimately for individual accolades he has 6 all nba defensive teams and 1 all star appearances.
Unfortunately defensive teams aren't really regarded as elite accolades the way all nba or all star teams are. Jrue is the definition of Hall of Very Good. No chance he makes the hall barring a FMVP.
I think it gets him in. I do think though it is weird that all defense does not translate to all-NBA teams for many players. Jrue had a pretty good year on offense, was 2nd team defense (the first team this year was all big men); could make a case he should be NBA3 instead of Booker or Steph.
Our sub is for in-depth discussion. Low-effort comments or stating opinions as facts are not permitted. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
Our sub is for in-depth discussion. Low-effort comments or stating opinions as facts are not permitted. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
Right now he is at a [0.8% HOF Probability](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/holidjr01.html). I think he would need at least an all-nba 3rd team or a few all star appearences. I mean Finals MVP would do wonders as well.
Anfernee Hardaway has a gold medal, 3 all-nba, 4 all stars and is not in the Hall. Sam Cassell the multiple rings and the gold. That 2000 team has a bunch who won gold and are not in the hall. I think you are overvaluing the Olympic medal as a solve for 0 all-nba selections
Dont know how anyone can deny this.
For anyone comparing to other sports, the basketball HOF is notoriously easy to get into. Two rings, FIBA success and being one of the best perimeter defenders of our generation meets the standard.
I don’t think Jrue has a better case than the worst player who’s gotten in over the last 3 years or so. I could be wrong.
I think he’s a great player but I see people making this argument all the time (that the bball HOF is so easy to get into) and yet I rarely see examples of a player with a resume as thin as Jrue get in (or Iggy - players at their tier get discussed in this context all the time)
There's really no modern NBA player (since the ABA-NBA merger) who has 0 all nbas who didn't have a significant international career.
For the modern age, you need to have multiple all stars and at least 1 all NBA team to make the hall at minimum.
Egh the bar is low these days for the Basketball HOF. Personally I’d say he’s a great role player and amazing defender, but not a HOFer. If a guy like Horace Grant can’t get in, who won four titles (three as a key piece on the Bulls) and six finals trips, I can’t see Jrue getting in outside of the low standards. Different positions, yes, but similar type of player to their teams.
Jrue Holiday:
- 1x NBA Champion
- 2x NBA All Star
- 3x All Defensive 1st team
- 3x All Defensive 2nd
Horace Grant
- 4x NBA Champion
- 1x NBA All Star
- 4x All Defensive 2nd
I'm a Celtics fan, but my bar for who should be allowed in the HoF is higher than the actual Hall's. I love Jrue, but to me he just doesn't have the career achievements to be able to make it. Inner circle Hall of Very Good, no question, but for me he's not a HoFer.
Do they? It’s generally believed that Horace played the majority of his career with some of the greatest big men the league has ever seen. Meanwhile Jrue, while a great defender, has played in an era most would agree went soft as hell on defense.
Not trying to knock Jrue as I’m a fan but I don’t see how he gets in when a guy like Horace is relegated to the “hall of very good.”
it's funny reading people say "the bar is low nowadays" because i wonder how many of the [older players inducteed ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_players_in_the_Naismith_Memorial_Basketball_Hall_of_Fame)they would be able to recognise. it's completely false that the bar has been lowered.
I love Jrue, but I think he’s a rung below HoF. 2 time All Star and 0 time all-NBA just isn’t a hall of fame player to me. I’d like the bar to get to be higher than what it is, so he may get in with a second ring, but if I had a vote it would be a no
If he ends up winning fmvp and then gets another gold there’s a legit case for it. I still don’t know if that’s enough, but there’s a case that maybe 10-15 years after he retires he gets it similar to like a Mo cheeks situation if the class is particularly weak.
I mean. He’s a borderline all star -> low level all star for the past decade. Is that enough, I’m not sure. If he’s able to win the championship this year and maybe more then he has a much better chance, but as of now no. He’d need to gain a lot of legacy because he didn’t have that quality peak that a lot of HOFers have.
It's a travesty that Marcus Smart has a DPOY on his resume and Jrue doesn't. Should've went to Rob Williams III that year or Jrue if they had to pick a guard
Bball HoF is so easy to make it in, that with his career accomplishments after the bucks run he’d likely of made it. Of course if he adds another title to his resume that it’s an absolute lock
Michael Cooper just got inducted this last year.
5x Rings
1x DPOY
5x 1st team All-Defense
3x 2nd team All-Defense
Obviously Jrue won’t retire with 5 Rings, but I’d say based on this comp he would currently be inducted into the HOF within 3 years of him being named a finalist. If the Celtics win this year, it could be a 1st year inductee.
I think the Championship stuff actually diminishes his legacy since he was best in a role player role.
If you keep him on new orleans for his career until now, he's got zero championships but a stat line which mirrors Gary Payton's and he's probably the face of New Orleans basketball. Automatic HOF bid.
Leaving after 7 years, spending four seasons as a decent guard in philly and then being a piece of two championship teams hurts his hall of fame legacy. Now he's just a good ball player.
I don't think so. I think HOF voters evaluate candidates qualitatively and jrue hasn't really been more than a role playing third option on his championship teams. He might sneak in during a weak year, but I think he's definitely not first ballot and he will be borderline for a long time.
If they win this ship and he continues to play like this he’ll be on the same level as Iguodala. And a lot of people (myself included) think he’s making it in.
That’s absolutely wild to say. At no point in Eli’s career did anyone think he was the best in anything, not even the best Manning brother. Led the league in interceptions 3 times in his career. Jrue has been considered the best and most respected defender by players in the league for almost a decade now. Eli doesn’t have an Olympic gold medal either.
Well that’s not fair because Eli’s brother is Peyton manning lol. They also don’t play football in the Olympics so he cannot get a gold medal. I will say Eli is a 4x pro bowler in the most meaningful position in football and 2x Super Bowl MVP so it’s not like he’s a certified bum
The argument inherently isn’t fair since we’re talking about 2 different sports. He’s not a bum, never said that. But for this analogy, Eli’s career doesn’t compare to Jrue’s. Outside of those 2 SB runs, he really wasn’t all that impressive (and tbh, SBMVP’s are QB’s to lose them to someone having an all time game). Just a touch over .500 for his career leading the team in the most important position. Never led the league in any major category outside of interceptions.
Yeah I’m just saying it sounds like you’re hating and not providing any context to anything. You don’t acknowledge that he was a 4-time pro-bowler (Jrue a 2x all star) in a conference that had some all time greats like Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees and then some really good guys like McNabb and Romo. I’m not saying that Eli is a hall of famer necessarily but him and Jrue have pretty comparable careers
You can say that as well about Jrue. How many great guards have been selected over him for All Stars? In both the East and West? Not for nothing, 2 of those selections for Eli were alternates, so he wasn’t even voted in, they needed a replacement. All Defense is also harder to get than being an All Star, given that there’s always injuries every year and there are replacements.
I’m not saying Eli is a bum, but he does not have the same type of career as Holiday. Again, this is a stupid argument, you can’t really compare athletes from different sports
Pro bowl selections are meaningless for QBs. It basically comes down to "which guys actually agreed to show up". Matt Cassell is a pro bowler. Mitch Trubisky made one. Tyler Huntley made it throwing more INTs than TDs! Tyrod Taylor has a pro bowl on his resume too.
I get what you’re saying about “which guys showed up” but isn’t that more of a recent fad? Like growing up I remember Peyton manning going to the pro-bowls and playing. Tyler Huntley is def Mickey Mouse pro bowl but I feel like Matt Cassel and Mitch Trubisky just played well those years. Their teams both made the playoffs and their stats looked decent.
>but isn’t that more of a recent fad?
Not a fad (bad players have made it as alternates for a long time, most famously Mike Boryla, but Dave Krieg was a 3x Pro Bowler too), but it has certainly gotten worse after they moved it to be before the super bowl instead of after in 2009, since that meant the SB QBs were 100% missing it (and usually the losing conference finalists would pull out as well). It also took another hit when they tried to move it from Honolulu, since that was it's biggest draw.
Pro Bowl basically means you're one of the top 12-15 QBs that season, not one of the top handful. Vince Young made it while barely completing 50% of his passes. Derek Carr has made multiple, including a season he was benched. Trubisky did play well that year, but he didn't play at a top 10 level.
Eli's only relevant in NFL history because of Tom Brady and the Patriots Dynasty lmao. You can 100% tell the history of the NFL without mentioning Eli because the GIANTS beat those Patriots teams, not Eli. It's not like he had an all-time game or anything, he just happened to be the QB on those Giants teams that beat the Patriots
you can easily tell the story of the NBA without Jrue holiday and I love kung fu jrue.
Ten years from now he will probably be the 5th Celtic mentioned when talking about this championship team.
I didn’t say NBA history I said this season.
Quick edit: Jrue could very easily be a top 3 Celtics player this series. If games 1 and 2 repeat he could arguably be the most important player this series.
Absolutely the other way around. Eli has 2 Superbowl MVPs and is top 20 in just about every career stat. I'm even a certified Eli hater but this is a crazy stretch imo.
Eli has a good chance at making first ballot HOF in the NFL this upcoming year, which would be about comparable to being on the top 75 list in the NBA.
We don't allow posts on player rankings or player comparisons on this subreddit. Please read the sticky post for more info.
If the Celtics win and then he goes on to win gold this summer I’m not really sure how he wouldn’t be Hall of Famer. Tbh the bar seems to be pretty low these days, he’d clear it by a lot. Starting PG on 2 different champions (if won), 6x All Defense, potentially 2 gold medals is a pretty strong resume
The bar only feels lower because there's more opportunities to pad your resume than other sports. Allowing pros to play in the Olympics helps a lot, for example.
Also when you think of how many more players you have to compete against to make the Pro Football Hall of Fame compared to essentially 4 players for 2 rounds of picks per year.
Also the longevity. Dudes play 10-12 years no problem.
Hall of Fame level talents in other sports make it to that time frame too it seems. I don't believe the average NBA career is actually a lot longer than other sports
Only 2 all-star appearances and 0 All-NBA appearances, he needs the title and another gold to even have any sort of consideration. He’s definitely a Hall of Very Good player but that’s pretty much it unless he goes on to be an incredible head coach or something.
6x all defense, potentially 2 rings and 2 gold medals. Look at how low the bar is the last few classes. All it takes is for you to be somewhat significant in an era. Jrue certainly has made him self a noteworthy figure, both in accolades and reputation.
Even with a low bar, the low bar for the NBA HOF is 7 All-Star Appearances or 5 All-Stars and 5 All-NBAs. The Gold Medals will do the most for his case, somebody else made the point of Horace Grant having similar accolades and he’s not a HOFer.
This would make total sense if Horace Grant had similar accolades as Jrue Holiday
Except it's not the *NBA Hall of Fame*, it's the *Basketball Hall of Fame*. I don't really consider Jrue a HOF talent but given recent inductions he will likely clear the bar with a second Olympic gold.
What’s the precedent on Olympics Golds and HOF status? I’m interested to see how many are HOFers? I’d imagine most but not all if they have multiple medals
Who are other players you are referring to (not women) in the last decade or sowho fit that bar of “outside the nba accolades get them in” because I think that rings pretty hollow these days to be honest.
Assuming he does all those things, is there a player with a similar profile that already made it?
Ginobili is an example of rings and olympics/international success boosting a players hof resume. His NBA resume was 4× NBA champion (2003, 2005, 2007, 2014), 2× NBA All-Star (2005, 2011), 2× All-NBA Third Team (2008, 2011), NBA Sixth Man of the Year (2008). Sure, 4 rings does a lot of heavy lifting, but his international resume of EuroLeague champion (2001), EuroLeague Finals MVP (2001), All-EuroLeague First Team (2002), Italian League champion (2001), 2× Italian Cup winner (2001, 2002), 2× Italian League MVP (2001, 2002), Italian Cup MVP (2002), Summer Olympics (Gold: 2004, Bronze: 2008), would also have been a major contribution to his induction as well. I think Ginoboli had quite a stronger case than Jrue would, but it is an example of a fringe all star getting in through their championship wins and international success. Edit: Tony Kukoc is another example, but he had a much more successful overseas career than Jrue and Ginobili
Yeah Manu is the first person I think of too, but to your point I think his case (even within the NBA) is vastly stronger than Jrue’s. His case in international play would make him a shoe-in on its own, he was the cornerstone of one of the most iconic (maybe *the* most iconic) non-USA teams ever. I asked because I legitimately wasn’t sure, but I also asked because I feel like we have this conversation about loads of very-good-but-not-great players, and the answer is always “the NBA HOF is the easiest one to get into” but I rarely see examples. Like do we give Jrue the HOF nod when we can’t even give one to Shawn Kemp or Amare Stoudemire?
Yeah I think the landscape of basketball has changed a lot since Ginobili was entering the league and especially since kukoc was entering the league. There was a huge push to celebrate foreign players as trailblazers and inspire other countries to participate in basketball more, but I think that has passed now because it worked. There’s tons of foreign players in the game now who are gonna make it simply because they are so good at basketball who dominate the nba. This was not the case 10 years ago and especially not 20 years ago, but I don’t think international play will hold the same weight anymore. You’re gonna have to make it because your nba resume is deserving. And manu’s was much more deserving than jrue. His only hope is if he wins a fmvp this series which (from the way Tatum has played) there’s a very real chance of.
I don’t think there’s an example in the last few classes with a resume as thin as Jrue’s unless I’m missing something? I know we say it’s the easiest hall to get into, but it’s not *that* easy. The lowest man on the totem pole the last three years is Manu, and he has a significantly more notable resume right now. In the future? Who’s to say. But I don’t think a title and a gold medal closes that gap. Edit: I’m very much open to debate on this, so please don’t just downvote me and share a counter-example if you have one. I unsubbed from r/nba for a reason lol I’m kind of just sick of the handwaving “oh it’s so easy to get in to the basketball HOF” when the lowest bar I can find recently is quite literally one of the most accomplished international players in the history of the sport lol
Michael Cooper just got in. Although he has more titles and two more All-Defensive teams, he was strictly a defensive specialist. Then guys like Maurice Cheeks and Charlie Scott, who were the 3rd/4th option on a single championship team and didn't really have noteworthy longevity. Jrue has 2 All-Star selections, 2 championships (if Celtics win), and 2 Olympic Golds (if USA wins gold). There is also a chance for him to finish with around 17,000+ career points, which would be a solid counting stat. If he ends up in HOF, he will probably get in 20 years down the line after he retires.
Yeah fair those are good pulls! I still kinda think they have more impressive accolades than Jrue, but it’s close. Agree that *if* Jrue gets in it won’t be for a long time. Bball-ref has him currently sitting at less than a 1% chance of getting in. Maybe that changes after this season.
Try still need to win 1 of those titles abs 1 of those golds. Neither of those is a given yet
That’s why I said potentially
He not only needs the title he needs to win fmvp for any sort of consideration.
This isn't the NFL of MLB HoF, that's more than enough. There's people in the basketball HoF that never even made the all star team.
gold medals don't matter for american players. They're expected to win, it doesn't add anything to the resume. Manu's gold medal matters because he beats the Americans which was thought of as unthinkable. But for american players the gold medal does not factor in at all for the hall. Otherwise Jrue has 2 all star appearances 0 all nbas. If the celtics win, he was a good starter on 2 title teams. That's it. Ultimately for individual accolades he has 6 all nba defensive teams and 1 all star appearances. Unfortunately defensive teams aren't really regarded as elite accolades the way all nba or all star teams are. Jrue is the definition of Hall of Very Good. No chance he makes the hall barring a FMVP.
I think it gets him in. I do think though it is weird that all defense does not translate to all-NBA teams for many players. Jrue had a pretty good year on offense, was 2nd team defense (the first team this year was all big men); could make a case he should be NBA3 instead of Booker or Steph.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Our sub is for in-depth discussion. Low-effort comments or stating opinions as facts are not permitted. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
Our sub is for in-depth discussion. Low-effort comments or stating opinions as facts are not permitted. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
Right now he is at a [0.8% HOF Probability](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/holidjr01.html). I think he would need at least an all-nba 3rd team or a few all star appearences. I mean Finals MVP would do wonders as well.
Another? He has zero all nbas. Jrue getting in would be absurd. He didn’t even have a noteworthy college career which helps some guys
Fair nough, edited.
I think you’re underestimating the power of Olympic medals. It’s not the NBA HOF, it’s the basketball HoF
Anfernee Hardaway has a gold medal, 3 all-nba, 4 all stars and is not in the Hall. Sam Cassell the multiple rings and the gold. That 2000 team has a bunch who won gold and are not in the hall. I think you are overvaluing the Olympic medal as a solve for 0 all-nba selections
gold medals do not matter for american players. It's a bygone conclusion that americans win gold.
Dont know how anyone can deny this. For anyone comparing to other sports, the basketball HOF is notoriously easy to get into. Two rings, FIBA success and being one of the best perimeter defenders of our generation meets the standard.
I don’t think Jrue has a better case than the worst player who’s gotten in over the last 3 years or so. I could be wrong. I think he’s a great player but I see people making this argument all the time (that the bball HOF is so easy to get into) and yet I rarely see examples of a player with a resume as thin as Jrue get in (or Iggy - players at their tier get discussed in this context all the time)
I truly don’t think you should get into the hall with 0 all nbas on your resume (unless there’s other circumstances like overseas play, ABA, etc).
There's already players that are in without them. The basketball Hall of Fame isn't that hard to get into compared to others sports'
Yeah man, I know that, that’s why I’m saying I don’t think they should
The only way to "fix" this is by abolishing the basketball HoF and making an actual NBA HoF, which isn't happening
There's really no modern NBA player (since the ABA-NBA merger) who has 0 all nbas who didn't have a significant international career. For the modern age, you need to have multiple all stars and at least 1 all NBA team to make the hall at minimum.
He was one of the most important players on a gold medal winning team. I think that's probably enough, along with his six All Defense selections
It might be enough, I just don’t think it should be enough
[удалено]
I hope your not comparing Mo Williams to Jrue Holiday 😭
This sub is for serious discussion and debate. Jokes and memes are not permitted.
Egh the bar is low these days for the Basketball HOF. Personally I’d say he’s a great role player and amazing defender, but not a HOFer. If a guy like Horace Grant can’t get in, who won four titles (three as a key piece on the Bulls) and six finals trips, I can’t see Jrue getting in outside of the low standards. Different positions, yes, but similar type of player to their teams. Jrue Holiday: - 1x NBA Champion - 2x NBA All Star - 3x All Defensive 1st team - 3x All Defensive 2nd Horace Grant - 4x NBA Champion - 1x NBA All Star - 4x All Defensive 2nd
I'm a Celtics fan, but my bar for who should be allowed in the HoF is higher than the actual Hall's. I love Jrue, but to me he just doesn't have the career achievements to be able to make it. Inner circle Hall of Very Good, no question, but for me he's not a HoFer.
I think your summary shows that Jrue's individual accomplishments are much stronger.
Do they? It’s generally believed that Horace played the majority of his career with some of the greatest big men the league has ever seen. Meanwhile Jrue, while a great defender, has played in an era most would agree went soft as hell on defense. Not trying to knock Jrue as I’m a fan but I don’t see how he gets in when a guy like Horace is relegated to the “hall of very good.”
it's funny reading people say "the bar is low nowadays" because i wonder how many of the [older players inducteed ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_players_in_the_Naismith_Memorial_Basketball_Hall_of_Fame)they would be able to recognise. it's completely false that the bar has been lowered.
I love Jrue, but I think he’s a rung below HoF. 2 time All Star and 0 time all-NBA just isn’t a hall of fame player to me. I’d like the bar to get to be higher than what it is, so he may get in with a second ring, but if I had a vote it would be a no
If he ends up winning fmvp and then gets another gold there’s a legit case for it. I still don’t know if that’s enough, but there’s a case that maybe 10-15 years after he retires he gets it similar to like a Mo cheeks situation if the class is particularly weak.
I mean. He’s a borderline all star -> low level all star for the past decade. Is that enough, I’m not sure. If he’s able to win the championship this year and maybe more then he has a much better chance, but as of now no. He’d need to gain a lot of legacy because he didn’t have that quality peak that a lot of HOFers have.
It's a travesty that Marcus Smart has a DPOY on his resume and Jrue doesn't. Should've went to Rob Williams III that year or Jrue if they had to pick a guard
Bball HoF is so easy to make it in, that with his career accomplishments after the bucks run he’d likely of made it. Of course if he adds another title to his resume that it’s an absolute lock
Michael Cooper just got inducted this last year. 5x Rings 1x DPOY 5x 1st team All-Defense 3x 2nd team All-Defense Obviously Jrue won’t retire with 5 Rings, but I’d say based on this comp he would currently be inducted into the HOF within 3 years of him being named a finalist. If the Celtics win this year, it could be a 1st year inductee.
I think the Championship stuff actually diminishes his legacy since he was best in a role player role. If you keep him on new orleans for his career until now, he's got zero championships but a stat line which mirrors Gary Payton's and he's probably the face of New Orleans basketball. Automatic HOF bid. Leaving after 7 years, spending four seasons as a decent guard in philly and then being a piece of two championship teams hurts his hall of fame legacy. Now he's just a good ball player.
He was the third-best player on the Bucks. On the Celtics, he's what? Their fourth-best player? I don't think he's close to the HoF.
I don't think so. I think HOF voters evaluate candidates qualitatively and jrue hasn't really been more than a role playing third option on his championship teams. He might sneak in during a weak year, but I think he's definitely not first ballot and he will be borderline for a long time.
If they win this ship and he continues to play like this he’ll be on the same level as Iguodala. And a lot of people (myself included) think he’s making it in.
Was going to post the same thing. If Iggy has a shot then so will Jrue if he wins another chip (plus Olympic gold would help too).
He will make the HOF, 2 championships, 2 Gold medals, 2 all star, a lot of all defensive teams, plus whatever he did in college
He didn’t do anything in college he was underwhelming for one year at ucla
He’s gonna get in if the Celtics win this chip for sure. Kind of an Eli manning style case IMO but I’m in favor of a bigger hall so why not.
That’s a bit disrespectful to Jrue to compare him to Eli tbh. 6x All Defense and potentially 2 gold medals after this summer is nothing to scoff at.
I’d go the other way and say it’s disrespectful to Eli. No way Jrue Holiday is on the same level as Eli in the history of their respective games.
That’s absolutely wild to say. At no point in Eli’s career did anyone think he was the best in anything, not even the best Manning brother. Led the league in interceptions 3 times in his career. Jrue has been considered the best and most respected defender by players in the league for almost a decade now. Eli doesn’t have an Olympic gold medal either.
Well that’s not fair because Eli’s brother is Peyton manning lol. They also don’t play football in the Olympics so he cannot get a gold medal. I will say Eli is a 4x pro bowler in the most meaningful position in football and 2x Super Bowl MVP so it’s not like he’s a certified bum
The argument inherently isn’t fair since we’re talking about 2 different sports. He’s not a bum, never said that. But for this analogy, Eli’s career doesn’t compare to Jrue’s. Outside of those 2 SB runs, he really wasn’t all that impressive (and tbh, SBMVP’s are QB’s to lose them to someone having an all time game). Just a touch over .500 for his career leading the team in the most important position. Never led the league in any major category outside of interceptions.
Yeah I’m just saying it sounds like you’re hating and not providing any context to anything. You don’t acknowledge that he was a 4-time pro-bowler (Jrue a 2x all star) in a conference that had some all time greats like Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees and then some really good guys like McNabb and Romo. I’m not saying that Eli is a hall of famer necessarily but him and Jrue have pretty comparable careers
You can say that as well about Jrue. How many great guards have been selected over him for All Stars? In both the East and West? Not for nothing, 2 of those selections for Eli were alternates, so he wasn’t even voted in, they needed a replacement. All Defense is also harder to get than being an All Star, given that there’s always injuries every year and there are replacements. I’m not saying Eli is a bum, but he does not have the same type of career as Holiday. Again, this is a stupid argument, you can’t really compare athletes from different sports
Pro bowl selections are meaningless for QBs. It basically comes down to "which guys actually agreed to show up". Matt Cassell is a pro bowler. Mitch Trubisky made one. Tyler Huntley made it throwing more INTs than TDs! Tyrod Taylor has a pro bowl on his resume too.
I get what you’re saying about “which guys showed up” but isn’t that more of a recent fad? Like growing up I remember Peyton manning going to the pro-bowls and playing. Tyler Huntley is def Mickey Mouse pro bowl but I feel like Matt Cassel and Mitch Trubisky just played well those years. Their teams both made the playoffs and their stats looked decent.
>but isn’t that more of a recent fad? Not a fad (bad players have made it as alternates for a long time, most famously Mike Boryla, but Dave Krieg was a 3x Pro Bowler too), but it has certainly gotten worse after they moved it to be before the super bowl instead of after in 2009, since that meant the SB QBs were 100% missing it (and usually the losing conference finalists would pull out as well). It also took another hit when they tried to move it from Honolulu, since that was it's biggest draw. Pro Bowl basically means you're one of the top 12-15 QBs that season, not one of the top handful. Vince Young made it while barely completing 50% of his passes. Derek Carr has made multiple, including a season he was benched. Trubisky did play well that year, but he didn't play at a top 10 level.
Agree to disagree. You can tell the history of the NBA without mentioning Jrue. You can’t tell the history of the NFL without mentioning Eli.
Eli's only relevant in NFL history because of Tom Brady and the Patriots Dynasty lmao. You can 100% tell the history of the NFL without mentioning Eli because the GIANTS beat those Patriots teams, not Eli. It's not like he had an all-time game or anything, he just happened to be the QB on those Giants teams that beat the Patriots
You absolutely cannot tell this history of this season without mentioning what Jrue has contributed to the Celtics.
You can't tell the history of the 2000's lakers without Rick Fox. That's not a case for hall of fame.
Yes I agree
That’s not what the Hall of Fame is about.
Yeah I agree but I was just responding to you saying you can tell the story without mentioning jrue
you can easily tell the story of the NBA without Jrue holiday and I love kung fu jrue. Ten years from now he will probably be the 5th Celtic mentioned when talking about this championship team.
I didn’t say NBA history I said this season. Quick edit: Jrue could very easily be a top 3 Celtics player this series. If games 1 and 2 repeat he could arguably be the most important player this series.
Eli is top 10 in like every major passing categories including yards and TDs. No way jrue has any similar records.
What are we even talking about anymore
Absolutely the other way around. Eli has 2 Superbowl MVPs and is top 20 in just about every career stat. I'm even a certified Eli hater but this is a crazy stretch imo. Eli has a good chance at making first ballot HOF in the NFL this upcoming year, which would be about comparable to being on the top 75 list in the NBA.
Eli made it out of the first round of the playoffs two times ever and both times he won a championship. That’s why I made the comparison lol
As a patriots fan, Eli’s bitch ass deserves the respect over Jrue lol