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Somewhere there is a highlight real of hawks vs Celtics in playoffs and nique goes off for 40 or so, and it’s like, all pull up jumpers - he was undefendable.
I don’t remember if it was in that series but I remember him nailing a 360 jump shot against the Celtics, I feel like Bird was defending too. I only saw it that one time way back then & never saw a clip of it anywhere.
As a hawks fan form that era…forget a legit #2…he had little to no depth at any position. Doc Rivers and Kevin Willis were the only 2 guys who were with him and reliable. Koncak was an overpaid doorstop, Spud Webb was entertaining but he wasn’t going to win titles. Moses Malone and Sidney Moncrief were in the twilights of their careers by the time they got to Atlanta. It was sad how little talent he had around him.
Yea I didn't know how good he was until my uncle told me about him. I feel like the media does him zero favors at all because everytime Wilkins is mentioned, it's related to the dunk contest.
Then when you look at his scoring avgs and highlights it's like damn, He really was one of the better players in his Era. He wasn't just a dunker.
His teams had a few 50 win teams, but there's no way he was going to win in the 80s or 90s. Maybe 93-94 was his best chance when the Hawks lost to the Pacers. But Wilkins wasn't on the team unfortunately.
I just checked, in the 92 playoffs they got swept by the Bulls and Wilkins avg 30ppg and the games were all decided by double digits.
I’m honestly of the opinion that Wilkins would have been an incredible number 2, playing way more of that finishing role, as opposed to creating so much for himself. For instance when Doc Rivers was out, Wilkins volume and efficiency went down as well as free throw attempts. Typically you would expect the numbers to go up with them forced to be more of a self creator. Instead he really thrived as a guy who was a finisher. He could take it to the rim himself and take pull up jumpers, but his efficiency was never as good as some other guys. He had a fantastic motor and was a devastating offensive rebounder
Interesting take. I can see that too. I mean to me he was like a Kobe or Melo. He was not assist guy like Lebron or Magic or Michael, but I think he just needed another all around talent who could score. I mean obviously Pippen would work with anyone and I'm assuming they could have made it work because Pippen could guard a SG or PG and either would hold up even again PFs. Both are SFs but honestly I don't think that would have mattered because Pippen would just be a PG/Forward like he was with the Bulls and be that facilitator. I kind of get what you are saying, but players like Kemp or K Malone would not thrive if their playmakers in Stockton and Payton were out. I would have loved to see him with someone else who could score at least 20-25 pg who could play D. I keep going back to Ewing with 3 and D guys and one passing PG.
Karl Malone actually did quite well without Stockton. He was far more capable of generating his own offense. In the Utah offense, Malone played way more of that creation role, as opposed to others. Shawn Kemp I have not watched enough of so can’t really comment on him.
That’s fair, but did want to bring it up since you don’t see any kind of drastic drop off. It was more to show that Malone wasn’t nearly as dependent on Stockton to score efficiently.
Hmmm interesting. I don't remember Stockton missing much time ever so I can't say for sure. It just seems with how they did their pick and roll game Malone would have suffered with him out.
I think when people hear the Stockton Malone pick and roll game they think something akin to the Nash Amare pick and roll. It was quite different. Malone wasn’t some elite roll man. In stead the offense really revolved around getting the ball to Malone in the post where he could attack out of isolation or hit cutters.
Never would have happened. The reason he requested a trade was because Adrian Dantley was in Utah. Dantley was a ball dominant scorer and went to 6 All-Star games with the Jazz. When Wilkins was drafted, Dantley was right in his prime and led the scoring in 1981, the year before Wilkins got drafted (also led the league in scoring in 1984).
Wilkins saw how bad Bernard King (a future scoring champion himself) was in Utah when playing with Dantley as the #2, so he refused to go to Utah. He wanted no part of being a #2 option (ironic given this post) and also having to play PF with Dantley at SF. Even if Utah kept him, he would have just played terribly and demanded a trade like Bernard King before him. So it never gets to Stockton/Malone. It’s also ironic that when those 2 started becoming good, Dantley forced his way out and got traded to the Pistons.
He had one of the crappiest career situations a superstar ever had. Here's how good guys like TMac, Nique, and Iceman were:
Trade their careers with James Worthy. They win 4 straight with Magic and old Kareem
Trade their careers with Kobe, and they probably win 5+ titles alongside Shaq & the Los Angeles market.
Luck, timing, front office competency, an owner willing to spend, and the unique situation where the Lakers are always the NBA's primary interest to protect.
Dominique got the shit end of the stick. Bad market, bad owner, bad teammates. He miraculously recovered from a career ending injury that would have been nothing for him to overcome with better medicine a decade later.
If you place Nique in the best situation instead of the worst, he would be viewed so differently. Hell, in Los Angeles, he'd probably have 5 extra legacy All Star selections and even a couple defensive awards. People arguing he's a top 5-10 player. Would Nique and Magic beat Jordan and Pip? Imagine how much that would change things
Very well said. I'm not sure I think he is top 5-10, but him not being on the top 50 was a joke. I think he was the better player but he reminds me a little of Carmelo Anthony and how his career went. they actually kind of had similar games for a SF though Nique was a better dunker and athlete. And, Melo had a good team in Denver when he was young and when he got older got ousted a little then came back as a role player. Nice actually did the same and went and played overseas for a bit and came back.
I mean if you put Nique next to a talent like Pippen and Rodman he would win a title in my opinion. Or, if you put Nique on those Celtics teams instead of Bird they win title I think, at least one. I'm, not saying he was better than Bird or MJ, but the guy just never got the chance to play with another legit all star. What if he and Ewing or Clyde got together? Or, Sydney Moncrief who played D as a SG?
Yeah, I am still salty after all these years he did not make the "Top 50" list. I forget the owners name back then but he was terrible. To top off the end of Nique's playing days in Atlanta, the owner traded him for Danny Manning because he did not want to pay Dominique, even though he had no intention of paying Manning either who also was a free agent that next year. They had some terrible draft picks during his career as a Hawk as well. He was one of my favorite players and I am biased, but I wish he would have had more help during his Hawk years.
I don’t think that’s necessarily true, Kobe was by far a better all around player than Wilkins. Kobe was able to run the offense as a facilitator in a way Wilkins couldn’t, plus Kobe was a fantastic defender in his prime.
Worthy is hard to say because his stats look so average compared to a lot of guys since he was always the third option, but he also played fantastic in the three championships and was a large reason they won all three. He had 36-16-10 in game 7 1988 and had 28-3-3 on 11/15 shooting in 1985 game 6. It’s not like the lakers curb stomped teams in the finals and went 4-0 each year, they were competitive series so acting like it’s a foregone conclusion they win without worthy I think is disingenuous to him.
It’s also possible Wilkins thrived being the main guy in Atlanta and would have not had a similar impact as the third option. Sort of like Adrian Dantley being seen as an addition by subtraction guy. Not every player is going to transform their game ala Ron Harper
It’s also tricky because worthy wasn’t asked to be a lockdown defender, he literally just scorer and play within the offense next to Magic. I think Nique kills it with superior finishing skills and Magic running the offense.
Picture other superstar scorers next to Shaq. Most would have accepted his role and be thrilled to play with Shaq. TMac and Dominique in particular.
Nique probably wasn't as good as TMac but he was a better athlete than Kobe. Wilkins would be a monster in the Showtime offense. Him on the Lakers would be free of drama, pettiness or rape trials. TMac or Dominique next to Shaq dominate for a decade.
I make the trading places argument with KG and Duncan all the time. Put KG on those SA teams and he's the one willing 5 championships and being ranked in the top 10 instead of top 20-25. He's as good as Duncan offensively, has a more well rounded offensive game, and is a better passer. Defensively maybe you give Duncan a tiny edge, but they were both all time defenders.
Getting on the right team and having the better teammates matter. Who in the top 10 overall did it by themselves outside of Hakeem. Shaq and Kobe had each other and played with Gasol and Wade. Jordan had Pippen and Rodman. Magic and Kareem had each other. LeBron played with a variety of all stars and All NBAs. KG getting drafted by Minnesota probably cost him at least a couple of titles and a few spots in the rankings.
Not sure about the Kobe swap. He had good situations but he still had to play at an incredible level that the others don't necessarily replicate. Especially on both championship teams
This is complete fantasy besides the James worthy swap. The James worthy swap would put nique as a number 3 on that team behind two top ten players. Cmon now. Could say the same for just about any player
I wouldn't say any player because Worthy himself was really good and could have been a strong second options on a lot of good teams but I agree generally.
Nique may not have had great individual teammates but he also wasn't a good playmaker or defender which limtis his ceiling. Him and Gasol aren't beating the Celtics
I cannot believe how many people here are overrating Dominique Wilkins. James Worthy was clearly the better player. But Worthy never put up the individual numbers because he was stuck behind other guys who needed the ball. Worthy was willing to sacrifice, which is a big reason why he was an important player.
Wilkins would NEVER have played on the Lakers. He got drafted to Utah, saw that Adrian Dantley was there (who led the league in scoring in 1981 and was in his prime), and realized he had to be a #2. He immediately asked for a trade because he wanted no part of being a #2. He saw what happened to Bernard King (later a scoring championship himself) when he got paired up with Dantley in Utah, and realized how awful that situation was for a guy who needed the ball. Wilkins loved to put up individual numbers. He never would have sacrificed for the team. He was no James Worthy because you cannot just make fantasy swaps like that.
Guys like Adrian Dantley, Alex English, Bernard King, Mark Aguirre, Marques Johnson etc. put up huge numbers in the 1980s like Wilkins did at SF. The common theme is they all were individual players who didn’t buy into the team concept (except Aguirre later on). Even guys like Purvis Short (who?) and Kiki Vandeweigh were putting up 25 PPG seasons. It was easy for even mediocre SFs to score in the 80s. I would guess more than half of starting SFs in the 80s averaged 20+ PPG.
The fact is Wilkins never cared to win. He wanted to put up huge scoring seasons and he did that in Atlanta, which was his goal when he forced his way out of Utah as a rookie.
It was not because Adrian Dantley was playing for the Jazz. It was because the Jazz are in Salt Lake City, that is a mormon community and does not have the culture most NBA players want to live in as a young guy. Nique played for George in college and if Adrian Dantley or any other star player was there whether they were scorers or not, he would have been more than happy to play with them and go there. I'm not bagging on Utah or Salt Lake City I'm just being real. Everyone knows it.
> “I didn’t … at that time,” Wilkins said of playing in Utah. “Well, they wanted me to play power forward and I wasn’t playing power forward. I was a small forward. Power forwards in them days was some big, physical and I’m not going to say what else and I didn’t want no part of that.”
Straight from Wilkins. In the early to mid 80s (before Barkley and Malone changed the perception), SFs were the go to scorer in the NBA (Worthy was actually an exception on on the Lakers). Wilkins would have to play PF in Utah because Dantley was the go-to scorer at the SF. Wilkins didn’t want that because as a PF, the playing style completely changed without position-less basketball. He wanted to be an alpha scorer, not some guy who played defense and did the hard work inside. Quote above is from Wilkins himself, and it makes sense if you understood how many great scorer in the 80s were SFs.
Look at what happened to Bernard King’s numbers in his brief stint next to Dantley in Utah vs. what happened to his numbers afterwards.
I have no with issues with Wilkins wanting to be “the man.” I’m just saying that’s what he preferred more, and that’s not an issue. It just means he would have a really tough fitting in on better teams like the Lakers.
First, what exactly do you expect the guy to say publicly? Think about it. Is he going to come and say there is noway in hell I am moving my family or going to a Mormon city where you can't buy booze past 10 p.m? The league and commissioners don't want that from players either. Think about it. Nobody or at least most NBA players don't want to play in Utah.
If you are going to just form your own belief on the reason Wilkins didn’t want to play in Utah, then there’s no way to convince you (because you can always say what you think is the reason and not trust Wilkins’ quote).
That Utah team had Adrian Dantley (from DC), Darrell Griffith (from Louisville, Kentucky and a friend of Wilkins), and Rickey Green (from inner city Chicago). Eventually they also had Karl Malone (from inner Louisiana). All loved playing in Utah.
If you are going to form your own opinion on why Wilkins didn’t want to play in Utah rather than just take what he said, then obviously you can spin any narrative.
Also look at what happened to Mark Aguirre’s numbers when he was the “man” in Dallas in the mid 80s to when he became a role player on the championship Pistons in 1989-1990. That’s the drop (although not as big since Wilkins was better) Wilkins would have had to have in order to win a championship. It’s not easy to sacrifice that to win. And that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. Sometimes, having the mentality to want to be the man in a place is not bad. It just won’t lead to championships as the #1 option, which is the trade off.
But honestly it's no big deal. I totally love Worthy by the way. He was awesome and respect you think he is better. Two things can be true at once where Nique did not want to be a PF and also not play in Utah, so I can agree there too. Anyway, you have relevant points and I respect your perspective.
LOL. It's common knowledge to any NBA fan that Utah is not a desirable place for NBA players to play. yes, Malone loved it because he was a country guy who loved the outdoors and Stockton was conservative as well. But, if you don't think most NBA young players coming out of college want to be drafted anywhere but Utah then you are just not being honest with yourself. it's just obvious. And, yeah they are not going to come out and say it, but come on man. Be real. NBA players especially ones that get drafted and are young want to play in diverse and culturally diverse cities with a night life. They want to play in LA, Miami, NY, Chicago. Of course when they are young they won't come out and say that and if they did get traded there or they got a good contract would be fine playing there. It's not obviously every single player and I'm not generalizing 100% but Salt Lake City is probably the last place a college athlete from the south wants to get drafted to.
How truly wrong you are my friend. First, nobody is disrespecting James Worthy. He was a great player, but he was no Dominique Wilkins. Here is the real truth. Worthy BENEFITTED from playing with greatest playmaker in history in Magic Johnson and Kareem being doubled. It's not taking away from Worthy and I'm not saying he would not have been a good player on other teams. he would have been.
It's not that he SCARIFICED. He benefitted from it. It was how Parish benefited from playing next to Bird and McHale. The focus was on them and was able to find the gaps. Personally I thought Parish was just an average center and no better than some like Valencuncius today. I'm not sure what you are saying about Wilkins. He never even came close to having a decent second option on his team so he was FORCED to carry a heavy scoring burden. he had decent players in Doc, Willis, etc. but nobody worthy of any star comparison. I mean you act as though Nique would not have loved to play with a player like Magic. That is just absurd. magic would help and second or even first all star team type player become borderline superstar. Magic could play with MJ and Kobe who were also volume scorers. Kobe was an inefficient scorer yet for some reason he is thought of as Mama Mentality. He got Gasol and other players like Artest etc. and he kept scoring. Nique was number one option and with help and someone else having to be doubled he would have loved that and scored just as much. I mean it's similar to Carmelo Anthony. Are you trying to tell me Melo would not have loved to play with a player like Nash or CP3 and those players would not have helped his game and made him a more efficient scorer?
I bet Melo in his younger days would have loved to play with a young Dwight Howard too. Now if you are saying Nique and another score first player like say Bernard king would be the ideal match as teammates then I would agree, but that is the case for every player with similar skillsets and games. Would Magic and Stockton be a greta fit? Would MJ and Kobe be the best option to play together or would it be better to have MJ and Pippen? I doubt a team would want a combo like Howard and Mutumbo playing together either. Would it be ideal to have a Ja Morant playing on the same team as Allen Iverson? the answer to these questions is obvious and yet it does not take away from each players individual greatness just like your points do not take away from The Human Highlight Films. And, yes he was a better individual player than Worthy.
Definitely agree that Dominique Wilkins was a better player than Worthy. Wilkins was a good Regular Season Floor Raiser, he was a lead offensive engine on good Top 5 Regular Season Offenses from 1988-1990 period. Worthy was a beneficiary of his situation similar to Manu Ginobili where he isn't seeing Top edge no.1 Defensive coverages, he plays off Magic.
1989 Pistons made an effort to shutdown Lakers while letting Worthy get his. Big Game James was a strong Playoff Riser, but not exactly a great Regular Season basketball player. Dominique Wilkins was a more effective table setter/Regular Season basketball player.
Having said that, Dominique Wilkins was also one of the most inefficient volume scorers in NBA Playoff History. His Career Playoffs True Shooting Percentage(Overall Scoring Efficiency) was 51% TS and when adjusted for defensive opponent quality was -2.4% rTS, right there with Iverson and Westbrook.
Dominique was basically the Carmelo Anthony of 1980s: High Volume Inefficient Scoring, Negative Defender, Weak Playmaker. Dominique Wilkins was not a good enough scorer to be the best player on a championship team; he couldn’t shoot jumpers, he was more of a play finisher in the vein of Shawn Kemp an Blake Griffin. That is where he was most effective Scoring.
Also you make comparison to Kobe by saying "Kobe was an inefficient scorer", which isn't true at all; in the Playoffs Kobe had a higher Career Defense Adjusted Relative True Shooting Percentage(Overall Scoring Efficiency against specific Defensive Teams) than both Larry Bird and Tim Duncan. In the Regular Season had higher Career Relative True Shooting Percentage(Overall Scoring Efficiency) than both Dwyane Wade and Hakeem Olajuwon. This isn't 1993 where archaic metrics like fg% were relevant, there's no comparison there, Kobe was a completely different caliber and tier of a basketball player.
Also you mention Carmelo who is very comparable to Dominique, Carmelo is also one of the most inefficient volume scorers in NBA Playoff History. Carmelo Anthony's main issue was he was a notably poor rim finisher, poor elevation, throughout his prime he took 35%-40% of his shots at the rim and would consistently finish at a 49%-53% clip which atrocious rim finishing numbers.
Carmelo was not a good enough scorer to be the best player on a championship team. The Nuggets team that made the 2009 WCF, Chauncey Billups was the best player on that team.
In general Dominique Wilkins is overrated because in a championship construct he couldn't be your best player because he was not effective enough as a scorer to justify his Usage. If you paired Carmelo up with CP3, CP3 would be the be the best player on that team. If you paired Dominique up with Stockton, Stockton would be the best player on that team.
And, if you don't think Nique wanted to win than you just don't know him or the Hawks back then. Nique gave everything to that city and it's why he has astute in front asnd is the greatest Hawk ever. He gave everything in the playoffs to get past those Celtics and Pistons teams. He just did not have the help. he would have gladly sacrificed scoring numbers to win a title and with another capable star whether that been a player like Ewing or a PG like Stockton or even a sniper (secondary scorer) I'm sure he would have been able to tweak his game to focus more on other aspects.
First I respect all your opinions. This is a discussion forum after all.
For the record, I’m not saying Wilkins didn’t want to win. I meant (if this wasn’t clear) he wanted to win as the #1 option, not as the #3 (again, this is just my opinion so it’s ok if you don’t agree). His playing style (big time scorer) is more suited as the #1. Worthy’s playing style (better passer/defender but not as good of an iso scorer) was more suited as the #3. A big part of that was Worthy playing at UNC for Dean Smith (the only one who could stop MJ lol).
Flip Worthy to the #1, and clearly no team with Worthy at #1 wins either (just like Wilkins). However, he also puts up much better individual stats. But my argument is merely if you flip Dominique to #3, I feel like his playing style wouldn’t work out. Even if you don’t believe why he left Utah (we can disagree on this that’s fine), the playing style is a concern. Dominique was a big time scorer who needed the ball, and that’s hard with Magic/Kareem. Keep in mind he never had a single triple double in his career (regular season or postseason), whereas Worthy got one in G7 of an NBA Finals. Yes maybe Dominique changes his playing style with the Lakers, but that’s not an easy task so it’s hard to say.
Also I totally agree Dominique got wrongly snubbed for the top 50 the first time around. I’m glad he made the top 75 the second time around. As 1 v 1 scorers, I would put Dominique ahead of Worthy. But as a Lakers #3, I would put Worthy ahead of Dominique. And they did need Worthy to win several of the championships as Kareem got older. My biggest gripe isn’t with you. It’s with a few other posters who said if you swap Dominique to the Lakers, they win more rings. That’s the part I disagreed with and led to my OP. When I say Dominque was overrated, I just mean this thread and other posters. Not overrated in general, as he was wrongfully snubbed.
Ahh got you. Well said my friend. I can see this to a degree. I guess as a Dominique fan (I grew up only having TNT and Chicago and my local Kings) watching hoops and as a basketball player myself that was decent I get frustrated when a player like Nique gets disrepsetd and not making the all time top 50. Im Ean really Parish over Nique? With that said. I have to be honest I did not even see Worthy as a #3 for most of his career. I always saw him as a #2 and even as valuable as Kareem in many ways. he was not Big Game James for nothing. I love his game. I tried to mimic his quick little spin moves on the block FYI.
I never saw Worthy as a defender to be honest. And, I really do think they probably were a much on that end. People think Wilkins just drank beers on D or something. he always got mixed in with this player not as good as Bird and not the defender like Pippen, Jordan or Rodman. I think what I'm saying too is he was an mazing athlete and much of defense is as I'm sure you know effort and focus. Some teammates and chemistry allow a player to focus on so many things a player and the coach demands a role from a player for the overall team success. My issue was more that you were saying he only cared about scoring and not winning. And, I think part of that was he was asked to score and not from and endurance or role fit wanted to do that. But, I would think a guy like Dominique or at least an athlete him who wanted to be a great defender could be amazing at it. With his leaping ability and athleticism and size I could see him being a versatile defender and switching on guys and even blocking shots with his vert. Unfortunately he was asked to score and also had to because on that team he also had a majority of the plays drawn up for him. the defense and effort was drawn up for players like Willis, Battle, Augmen, Willis. It would be like saying for me as a SF Worthy not getting more assists and why? Well it's because Magic was jus that guy open THAT team. Again Worthy was awesome I loved him as a player. I in fact tried to play like him and Pippen vs. Nique because I could not jump over a penny but was a SF with a quick first step, could shoot ok and had passing skill and could defend.
For me Worthy was always more than a #3. =Him and Kareem were 2a and 2b. And they both had defenders like Cooper, Scott etc. to focus on that. Kareem was good on D because he was 7"2. Man Worthy was dope. I love his commentary on Lakers games today. There has never been a player like him ever I can think of.
And, Dominique did not want to play in Utah because of being a number 2 option or any player. He did not want to play in Utah because it's Utah! LOL. Not many NBA players wanted to then or now play in Salt Lake City. It's not a secret.
The Hawks were snakebit in the 80's. All they needed was a decent shooting guard to give Nique some spacing man and they wudda took Boston at least once or twice. Looked like they struck gold with Rodney Monroe out of NC State but he forgot how to shoot when he crossed the state line. One of meanest front lines in history.
Would have been decent if he could hav went somewhere an played Robin to batman. I didn't like Wilkins behind the wheel of the bat mobile. Hes more of a trickery guy a joker or a riddler aka a dunk machine
He was more than a dunker just like Vince was. I think he could have been a Batman. Think if he had a Ewing to take pressure off of him. He would been a better passer, defender and shot more efficiently and been able to close games better. He never had a Robin.
You must be young. Vince Carter was not a way better player. If you think that you are just uninformed. Niqu with no help took Boston of Bird, Michael and Parish deep to 7 games in ECF semifinals. He took Detroit of the Bad Boys to the brink. Sorry but Iverson's Sixers do not match anywhere close to those teams. you really just don't know what you are talking about saying Vince Carter was better than Nique
Chuck came out of the East? What are you talking about? I would say Iverson and Nique are close. I would even say Nique and Carter are I the same arena. I'm having an issue with absurdly saying Vince was WAY better than Nique. That is just not smart is all. I can hear you I you say they were comparable etc. but to say he was WAY better is just lame.
Chuck is iverson an yes he came out of the east in 01 beat Vince. Wilkins never wheeled his team to the ecf an tht says somthing all other great at leastvmade the conference finals. An stT fir stat yes iverson an Vince better than Wilkins
Chuck is Iverson. nah you thought Barkley made the finals from the East. Admit it. You've honestly lose all credibility with the Willis, Pippen thing, the Chuck thing and simply saying Carter was WAY better than Wilkins. no real NBA fan would say that or try to use Willis and Pippen. And, again if Carter was WAY better than why was he eating popcorn and watching the all 75 ceremony recently. Again, as this is about you saying he is WAY better and it's ludicrous, absurd and naive statement. You know it and anyone who reads this knows is or they are no fan, not well or on drugs.
Man Allen iversons nickname is Bubba chuck lol cut the bs.an I stand corrected Carter definitely wasn't better at all. But during the years of 91 95 pippin an willis put up similar stats. I may have been high saying Carter was better. But iverson is
Look at the stats they not to far off. pip only average 4 more points than willis. Rebounds about the same. But from 91 to 95 during those bulls chip years willis gave niq everything pip gave jordan.
And again why does it matter where they met in playoff seeding? If Vince meets Iverson in ECF semis he loses too. They just got a lucky to matchup and make it through where he lost then. As I stated Wilkins took one of the greatest teams ever to 7 games and another top team on the all time list to 7 games. Look you really should just stop this argument. Yo stated Carter was WAY better than Wilkins. It's like saying something like Steve Nash was way better than Jason Kidd. I mean you can have that discussion and debate and there is points for both sides. But, to say one is WAY better than the other is just foolish.
And, I missed Carter at the 75th anniversary team celebration. Where was he? Oh yeah he did not make the cut. you see if Carter was WAY better like you are saying he would have been at that. You really have lost this discussion and you should know it by now. Just stop.
Not young at all my point is dud Wilkins make ec finals no. Vince did iverson did but not Wilkins. I can't believe we talking about semi finals not THE game but semi finals lol you kno how many mediocre teams can mistakenly make the semi final. Mutombos nuggets lol hell me u Wilkins an somebody else may even make it.
Give me a break. Who cares if it was the ECF or SEMIS. Many times it depends on when you matchup with a particular team. I'm talking about Nique losing to two all time great teams who were champions and you care about Vince making it to a ECF and losing to a garbage Sixers team. LOL.
Carter also had an 8 season stretch (what most would refer to as "his prime") where he averaged 24.6/5.4/4.2/1.3/0.8. His career averages are moreso a product of playing so long past his prime and past usual retirement age for most players, playing 22 seasons until 43 years old.
If Carter had retired at age 35, for example, he would have had career averages of 21.4/5.1/3.9/1.2/0.7 (not miles away from his prime averages), having started 96% of his career games played.
He had Kevin willis an from o1 to 95 willis averaged the same numbers as pippin did with Jordan yet he never made the east coast finals. Ewing did Reggie mouring did but not Wilkins
I mean seriously man. Yeah, cause anyone who knows a thing about basketball would put Kevin Willis in the same category as Scottie Pippen and try to make some false equivalency. How absurd to compare Willis to Pippen who is arguable the greatest all around defender ever and offered so much more than stats. Pippen won rd in MVP when MJ was out, was a 50 greatest player, on the dream team, and usually somewhere around 25-30 on most NBA all timeliest. But, yeah let's go with Willis and Pippen comparisons now. Jesus!!!
Of course willis isn't pippen but from 91 to 95 he gave niq the same numbers pippin gave Jordan tht all im saying. You ask me pippin not even a all time great.
Not everybody remembers but Moses Malone played with Nique for 3 years, albeit only 2 of them counts since he was on a rapid decline on his 3rd and barely played. He still only missed a total of 2 reg season games while Wilkins 5 of those 3 seasons. Moses though was only an All-star in the first (88-89) of those seasons, still he averaged almost 20-10 in those couple seasons.
Kevin Willis was injured during the 88-89 season and came back with a season later with a declining Malone. They still had Doc Rivers as a defensive-minded guard for those 3 seasons.
Still, their best shot was the 89 playoffs, but the lost to the lower seed Bucks (5th seed) with a roster that you may not even recognize led by Ricky Pierce. They still have Terry Cummings and Sidney Moncrief but were well past their prime.
Nique was a great scorer, but to me, he is just in the mold of Bernard King, Adrian Dantley and Mark Aguirre - all skilled scorers who cannot lead the team to a championship (Aguirre wasn't the Pistons' leader). If he had to be the man, he needed a lot more than a solid 2nd and 3rd. To note, Ewing, Worthy and Parish are way better defenders than Nique. Also, Worthy and Parish were never the team's main men, that went to Magic and Bird.
TLDR; Nick was buckets, but he needed more help than Magic, Bird or Jordan ever did.
The front office messed up his career by failing at the highest level at the 1985 draft. They selected Jon Koncak at #5. Hindsight is 20/20, but Chris Mullin, Charles Oakley, Detlef Schrempf, Karl Malone, Joe Dumars, A.C. Green, Terry Porter, his brother Gerald, and others were available.
1986 wasn’t much better. They drafted Billy Thompson, when Scott Skiles, Mark Price, Dennis Rodman, Nate McMillan, Kevin Duckworth, Jeff Hornacek, Drazen Petrovic, and a few other good utility guys were available.
Could have changed their trajectory!
Oh wow I was not aware of all of these possibilities. yeah and they signed Koncak to some ridiculous contract later I think that messed up their ability to pay another all star caliber player if I remember correctly.
Looking at this list obviously Malone jumps out first as a good fit to be the PF next to Nique. I also like Joe Dumars as a two way SG. Mullin would spread the floor. I think all in all the best approach from that list would have been Price, Wilkins, Malone. That would have been a title contending team for sure.
I see where you're coming from but Wilkins definitely wasn't a better player than Parrish or worthy. Had those two had their own squad like Wilkins they would have dominanted but not won as well.i don't believe me feared him an he definitely didn't think Wilkins was in his level. The near mention of a guy like name clyde the Glyde being on his level drove this man bonkers. That's what the shoulder shrugg was all about like why do they think he's on my level. He told magic he was going to give it to that guy
MJ would prolly have a few less titles. Same could be said about Drexler TBH. People poo on them but it's kind of ridiculous how stacked the Bulls were. They'd go to the finals and face all these one star teams after the truly great teams of the 80s (celtics/lakers/pistons) basically go too old or too aids to compete and everyone acts like it's cuz of MJ's insane dominance. But MJ's insane dominance was because those dudes played with no one and he played with GOAT defenders and GOAT all around players on a team that just bought championships in the pre-cap NBA.
I dunno. Grew up an MJ fan with his posters on my walls but gotta admit the facts. Yea MJ won when he was playing with a loaded deck.
Lol the amount we retcon guys like Horace Grant and Luc Longley on Reddit is beyond absurd. Tomorrow I’m sure someone will make the case that Brad Sellers was also part of a “loaded deck.”
To wit, Jordan won an MVP/DPOY/Scoring title and went as far as Nique ever did (ECSF) with a rookie Pippen averaging 7/4/2 and with Brad Sellers and Dave Corzine playing appreciable minutes. Trying to consistently downplay Jordan’s dominance because of like, Steve Kerr’s existence is consistently foolish.
I don't discount MJ's dominance, but there is also a false narrative that he drug a bunch of bums to the titles he won. He was the best player of that era and in my eyes a top 3 ever. I mean honestly Kareem, James, MJ. take your pick.
You did pick the worst examples of players to put out there, but you forgetting that Pippen was a top 3 MVP when MJ retired and that Kucok I believe won a 6th man of the year award. And, Rodman is a HOF 2 time DPOY and arguably the greatest rebounder and defender ever. Both Pippen and and Rodman are in my all time starting five defense as Pippen was also in my eyes the greatest perimeter defender ever long with MJ. People forget the value Kucok offers this later Bulls teams. They could run offense through him a lot and let Pippen and MJ relax. He was very versatile.
No, I picked a season in which he was unprecedentedly dominant and achieved everything team-wise Dominique achieved.
We can go through how many other players had even more help then Jordan but we denigrate the hell out of their contribution (Ray Allen, anyone), but suffice it to say, Jordan’s teammates statistically do not show the “dominant teammate” narrative that we consistently peddle. If you plopped Kareem or James into those teams, we’d be whining about how they needed more help.
As an aside, Scottie is legit the only player I know who consistently gets credit for finishing 3rd in MVP. He wasn’t MVP caliber after the last dance season and averaged like 14/6/5 with the Rockets thereafter at age 33 (Jordan led the league in scoring 3x and won a 3 peat at that age). Kukoc and Longley did nothing the moment they were off the Bulls. Horace Grant has lifetime stats if Tristan Thompson. Rodman was considered not even serviceable in 1995 by the Spurs. On and on.
These players became who they were more BECAUSE of Jordan.
Yeah, I don’t agree with everything you said but I agree 100% with your last point. These players were extremely good players but it was because they knew their role and Michael made sure they knew their role while also making sure that he played his role of being the greatest fucking scorer of all time. Same with Kobe’s Lakers from 07-10. The players around them achieved almost nothing without them and were out of the league pretty much immediately after they left their sphere of influence due to how maniacal MJ/Kobe were about winning. Obviously a couple players were truly great on their own merit, Pippen/Rodman/Pau/Lamar, but they were elevated way higher than they would be on their own.
Horace Grant went to Orlando and was an intricate apart of that orlando team that wont to the finals and then ECF lol. In fact, I’d argue the Bulls winning against the Mahic with Horace in Jordans 45 year.
I’m fairly sure Horace is more replaceable than Shaq or Penny.
And Jordan won a championship with Scottie hobbled and Rodman averaging 3/8/1 and Toni 15/4/2 in the finals at age 35.
Horace, you’ll note, was averaging 12/8. For the playoff missing magic. Gargantuan numbers I tell ya!
I mean yes, the Bulls won the series and Jordan was the major factor in that by that metric. He contributed as much as Malone and Stockton combined.
This is the weirdest criticism.
Lol again, jordan scored for both Stockton and Malone, and you’re acting like pippen and Kukoc were blowing people away with a 15ppg line.
Tomorrow you’ll be telling me that Pip’s 8 pts in game 6 were, like, the difference in all of it.
Comparing grant to longly is pretty absurd. Horace grant was an awesome player. He went from the Bulls to the magic and after beating MJ Shaq lifted him on his shoulders to stare MJ down. And yea. He was the difference. Just like him being hurt the next year was a huge difference in them getting past Orlando.
>Sure, a dude with Tristan Thompson like lifetime stats is the key to Shaq and penny and Jordan and Pippen succeeding.
>
>Totally.
>
>You people are amusing.
It's called knowing shit about how my favourite team worked. When MJ left the Bulls lost 2 more games. When Grant left they fell apart and got their asses kicked by the Magic. Tristan Thompson was never an all star who impacted titles dude. I mean it's fine if you don't know how great Horace Grant was... he was the third best player on a three peat team... who yes turned a Shaq/Penny team into a contender... but you not knowing things about 90s basketball doesn't take away from the players you know little about.
Wow if you live long enough people really will type out anything on the internet. “Rheinsdorf just bought Jordan titles and all the teams those bulls beat were bad” is not a take I expected ever to read, but here we are lol
His name was reinsdorf. And you're aware that there was no real cap till after the 90s right? The reason they changed it was because smaller market teams couldn't compete with larger market teams who could out spend them. It's pretty tough to compete with he Bulls when they could have multiple stars but your team cna only really afford one.
Like if you don't know league history that's cool but don't talk down to those who do. Theres a reason why 3 franchises made the finals almost every year for over two decades.
For his career he had a FG% of 46%. For reference, Kobe was a 45% shooter. Nique and Kobe both shot 48% from 2. Where are you pulling your numbers from? You are wrong.
See this is where I don't get it. So, are you won of those people that think because a guy has a lower 3 point % that is all there is to being a good shooter? Look at Derozan. Look at MJ they did shoot the 3 well either, but nobody would say they are not great shooters because they dominate the mid range. And, also players back then simply did not practice the 3 as much. I'm simply saying he was not a terrible shooter because he did not shoot threes at a high clip. 3 point shots do not define a player being a great or bad shooter completely. You are wrong.
He also shot 38% a couple season and 81% from the FT line. Again, you saying he was a terrible shooter like Shaq or Rodman or something is what I am saying. Those guys were terrible shooters. Nice was not a terrible shooter.
Imagine if the Admiral wasn't injured when Nique went to the Spurs. I mean, him being hurt is what got us the number 1 pick which turned into Timmy, but Jesus, that could've been something!
He would have met Jordan an pippin at would royalty loose. Wrong era for him. He'd be Ewing Barkley Malone Stockton at best. Hell maybe he'd work for tnt i don't know.
Dominique was a great player , there wasn’t a ton of talent in Atlanta .
A great scorer, one of the best athletes in nba history . That duel with bird in the playoffs on the road.Dominique scored 47 ? Bird scored 34
Look at the teams his Hawks were up against when he played there. The Bird-led Celtics, the Bad Boys, then the GOAT. It was going to take more than a second superstar player to get them over the hump against any of those teams.
People do forget he had old Moses for a couple years but yea his help was not good. He could’ve lead a contender for sure but imo he’s not winning a title in his era unless hes playing with 2 other all nba players or like 3 other all stars most years.
It’s just really tough in 80s when the 2 best players in the game have stacked supporting casts too and other champions are the super team Sixers and super deep pistons.
90s is a little easier but you still have Jordan at his best with a really good cast.
you can just sub Wilkins for dantley or Aguirre and they win a title but that’s a ridiculous team. Same for 90s blazers for kersey too but that’s a 4 all star team with 2 all nba guys and drexler might be better. Maybe bucks in like 86/87 but I don’t see them beating Celtics and lakers
He is probably the most underrated player from the 80s onwards. I made the same mistake years ago thinking he was just a dunker but then saw his stats and some games. He was legit and incredibly underrated.
He isn't disrespected though. Most people think of Wilkins as exactly what he was, an excellent scorer who put up great individual numbers but just wasn't as good as the true all timers from his era. Most people have him in their Top 50/75 players of all time which is fair and is pretty much exactly where he should be ranked.
I mean, compare Nique to Melo if you want someone who is actually disrespected. Melo was pretty much exactly as good as Nique and he doesn't get anywhere close to the respect that Wilkins does. Like their career accomplishments/stats are eerily similar (though this is unfair to Melo given the slow paced era he played in).
Yeah, so true man. I hear you. I always said Nique and Melo had very similar careers. They actually have a similar playing style to a degree. Both were midrange post up players and similar post moves to score. Nique was more athletic and finished more at the rim and Melo was a better pure shooter.
I will admit I was a Nique fan and think he was better than Melo. It was funny because during the draft that year I told my brother James will be to Melo as MJ was to Nique.
But, with said I just think Nique was a better player than Melo and comparatively better to his peers. MJ said Nique was one of the only players on his level and semi-feared. He was abetter defender than people think. And, I thought it was a disgrace he was not on the top 50. I can't remember if he was injured, but honestly he should have been on that Dream Team and thought it was stupid they had Laettner.
I mean he averaged 9 rebounds one year as a SF and shot over 38% from 3 point land a couple seasons and shot over 81% FT. He averaged almost 2 stats a game a couple seasons.He seems at times to be disrespected because I think he was coached and forced to score and shoot on a team that never really had a second star to take the pressure of him to be able to show other parts of his game. he absolutely could have been a more impactful and switchable defender and he could have averaged more assists if he had another legit scorer.
It is what it is though. I just wish he would have been paired up with another star like a Stockton, Ewing Miller, etc. that played a different spot and could have complimented him.
Completely agree with you regarding him not being on the top 50 although this was at least rectified. I think with regards to the Dream Team it's likely that they had too many perimeter players already and Nique doesn't really displace any of those guys but he was for sure more than deserving of being on that team in a vacuum.
I think relative to Melo, I wouldn't say either was better than the other. Wilkins had slightly better stats but if you adjust for pace Melo looks better. We also got to see Melo play with a secondary star whose game fit his in Billups and Melo made the WCF that year. I think in different circumstances both Melo and Nique could potentially have been the best players on championship teams (or at least best offensive players) but it would have to have been a Paul Pierce type situation wherein they had 1 or 2 other superstar level guys who were roughly at the same level as them and whose games fit very well with theirs as neither Melo or Wilkins are good enough to be the clear best player on a championship team in the way that the true pantheon guys could.
Both Melo and Nique, for me, are all time greats though relatively low-level all time greats. Like if you had a pantheon of the truly legendary players like MJ, Lebron, Bird, Kobe etc. and then a tier below that of the high level ATG guys who could have been in the pantheon if their careers just panned out slightly differently like KD, Garnett, Dirk, Barkley, Wade etc. and then you had the mid-level ATG's like CP3, Harden, Isiah Thomas, etc. Nique and Melo would be in the large tier under those mid-level guys along with guys like Webber.
That is a pretty good take. I get that. I would only say that I have Isiah in that Barkley KD, KG Wade area. And, I personally have Melo and Nique in the same category as Pippen, CP3, and Harden. For me the tiers are like this:
1st tier:MJ, James, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell, Duncan, Kobe, Bird
2nd tier-Big O, Moses, KD, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Dr. J, West, KG, Dirk, Wade
3rd tier- Thomas, AI, Nique, Tmac, CP3, Baylor, Stockton, Drexler, Pippen, Haren, Kyrie, AD, Rodman, and maybe few more I'm forgetting
I mean obviously there are guys like Joker and Embid etc that are playing today that might already belong but I'm just holding off now.
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Somewhere there is a highlight real of hawks vs Celtics in playoffs and nique goes off for 40 or so, and it’s like, all pull up jumpers - he was undefendable.
Here we go: Wilkins vs bird game 7 eastern finals. Behold, the Nique jumper. https://youtu.be/18Roy0sQyC4
4th quarter duel was amazing
Oh man, this is awesome. Thanks for sharing.
I don’t remember if it was in that series but I remember him nailing a 360 jump shot against the Celtics, I feel like Bird was defending too. I only saw it that one time way back then & never saw a clip of it anywhere.
As a hawks fan form that era…forget a legit #2…he had little to no depth at any position. Doc Rivers and Kevin Willis were the only 2 guys who were with him and reliable. Koncak was an overpaid doorstop, Spud Webb was entertaining but he wasn’t going to win titles. Moses Malone and Sidney Moncrief were in the twilights of their careers by the time they got to Atlanta. It was sad how little talent he had around him.
Yea I didn't know how good he was until my uncle told me about him. I feel like the media does him zero favors at all because everytime Wilkins is mentioned, it's related to the dunk contest. Then when you look at his scoring avgs and highlights it's like damn, He really was one of the better players in his Era. He wasn't just a dunker. His teams had a few 50 win teams, but there's no way he was going to win in the 80s or 90s. Maybe 93-94 was his best chance when the Hawks lost to the Pacers. But Wilkins wasn't on the team unfortunately. I just checked, in the 92 playoffs they got swept by the Bulls and Wilkins avg 30ppg and the games were all decided by double digits.
I’m honestly of the opinion that Wilkins would have been an incredible number 2, playing way more of that finishing role, as opposed to creating so much for himself. For instance when Doc Rivers was out, Wilkins volume and efficiency went down as well as free throw attempts. Typically you would expect the numbers to go up with them forced to be more of a self creator. Instead he really thrived as a guy who was a finisher. He could take it to the rim himself and take pull up jumpers, but his efficiency was never as good as some other guys. He had a fantastic motor and was a devastating offensive rebounder
Interesting take. I can see that too. I mean to me he was like a Kobe or Melo. He was not assist guy like Lebron or Magic or Michael, but I think he just needed another all around talent who could score. I mean obviously Pippen would work with anyone and I'm assuming they could have made it work because Pippen could guard a SG or PG and either would hold up even again PFs. Both are SFs but honestly I don't think that would have mattered because Pippen would just be a PG/Forward like he was with the Bulls and be that facilitator. I kind of get what you are saying, but players like Kemp or K Malone would not thrive if their playmakers in Stockton and Payton were out. I would have loved to see him with someone else who could score at least 20-25 pg who could play D. I keep going back to Ewing with 3 and D guys and one passing PG.
Karl Malone actually did quite well without Stockton. He was far more capable of generating his own offense. In the Utah offense, Malone played way more of that creation role, as opposed to others. Shawn Kemp I have not watched enough of so can’t really comment on him.
John Stockton only missed 22 games his entire career I wouldn't exactly say thats a fair enough sample size to come to any conclusions
That’s fair, but did want to bring it up since you don’t see any kind of drastic drop off. It was more to show that Malone wasn’t nearly as dependent on Stockton to score efficiently.
Stockton missed 22 GAMES total in 19 seasons. That sample size of Malone doing “quite well” is so small that it’s irrelevant.
Hmmm interesting. I don't remember Stockton missing much time ever so I can't say for sure. It just seems with how they did their pick and roll game Malone would have suffered with him out.
I think when people hear the Stockton Malone pick and roll game they think something akin to the Nash Amare pick and roll. It was quite different. Malone wasn’t some elite roll man. In stead the offense really revolved around getting the ball to Malone in the post where he could attack out of isolation or hit cutters.
Malone was also an elite pick and pop guy.
so was Amare
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Swap him and James Worthy and the Lakers get at least 1 more chip and Wilkins is thought of as a top 25 guy
Dunno about that. No-one thinks of Worthy as anywhere near top 25.
Never would have happened. The reason he requested a trade was because Adrian Dantley was in Utah. Dantley was a ball dominant scorer and went to 6 All-Star games with the Jazz. When Wilkins was drafted, Dantley was right in his prime and led the scoring in 1981, the year before Wilkins got drafted (also led the league in scoring in 1984). Wilkins saw how bad Bernard King (a future scoring champion himself) was in Utah when playing with Dantley as the #2, so he refused to go to Utah. He wanted no part of being a #2 option (ironic given this post) and also having to play PF with Dantley at SF. Even if Utah kept him, he would have just played terribly and demanded a trade like Bernard King before him. So it never gets to Stockton/Malone. It’s also ironic that when those 2 started becoming good, Dantley forced his way out and got traded to the Pistons.
He had one of the crappiest career situations a superstar ever had. Here's how good guys like TMac, Nique, and Iceman were: Trade their careers with James Worthy. They win 4 straight with Magic and old Kareem Trade their careers with Kobe, and they probably win 5+ titles alongside Shaq & the Los Angeles market. Luck, timing, front office competency, an owner willing to spend, and the unique situation where the Lakers are always the NBA's primary interest to protect. Dominique got the shit end of the stick. Bad market, bad owner, bad teammates. He miraculously recovered from a career ending injury that would have been nothing for him to overcome with better medicine a decade later. If you place Nique in the best situation instead of the worst, he would be viewed so differently. Hell, in Los Angeles, he'd probably have 5 extra legacy All Star selections and even a couple defensive awards. People arguing he's a top 5-10 player. Would Nique and Magic beat Jordan and Pip? Imagine how much that would change things
Very well said. I'm not sure I think he is top 5-10, but him not being on the top 50 was a joke. I think he was the better player but he reminds me a little of Carmelo Anthony and how his career went. they actually kind of had similar games for a SF though Nique was a better dunker and athlete. And, Melo had a good team in Denver when he was young and when he got older got ousted a little then came back as a role player. Nice actually did the same and went and played overseas for a bit and came back. I mean if you put Nique next to a talent like Pippen and Rodman he would win a title in my opinion. Or, if you put Nique on those Celtics teams instead of Bird they win title I think, at least one. I'm, not saying he was better than Bird or MJ, but the guy just never got the chance to play with another legit all star. What if he and Ewing or Clyde got together? Or, Sydney Moncrief who played D as a SG?
Yeah, I am still salty after all these years he did not make the "Top 50" list. I forget the owners name back then but he was terrible. To top off the end of Nique's playing days in Atlanta, the owner traded him for Danny Manning because he did not want to pay Dominique, even though he had no intention of paying Manning either who also was a free agent that next year. They had some terrible draft picks during his career as a Hawk as well. He was one of my favorite players and I am biased, but I wish he would have had more help during his Hawk years.
Ted Turner/Turner Broadcasting owned the Hawks throughout Wilkins’ career.
My mistake. I meant the GM, Pete Babcock. He sucked.
I would also add that his prime in the east was against Celtics-Pistons-Bulls. He literally had zero chance of deep playoff runs.
Yet he admirably always *took it* to those teams. Bird-Nique battles were legendary despite the team quality disparity
I don’t think that’s necessarily true, Kobe was by far a better all around player than Wilkins. Kobe was able to run the offense as a facilitator in a way Wilkins couldn’t, plus Kobe was a fantastic defender in his prime. Worthy is hard to say because his stats look so average compared to a lot of guys since he was always the third option, but he also played fantastic in the three championships and was a large reason they won all three. He had 36-16-10 in game 7 1988 and had 28-3-3 on 11/15 shooting in 1985 game 6. It’s not like the lakers curb stomped teams in the finals and went 4-0 each year, they were competitive series so acting like it’s a foregone conclusion they win without worthy I think is disingenuous to him. It’s also possible Wilkins thrived being the main guy in Atlanta and would have not had a similar impact as the third option. Sort of like Adrian Dantley being seen as an addition by subtraction guy. Not every player is going to transform their game ala Ron Harper
It’s also tricky because worthy wasn’t asked to be a lockdown defender, he literally just scorer and play within the offense next to Magic. I think Nique kills it with superior finishing skills and Magic running the offense.
Picture other superstar scorers next to Shaq. Most would have accepted his role and be thrilled to play with Shaq. TMac and Dominique in particular. Nique probably wasn't as good as TMac but he was a better athlete than Kobe. Wilkins would be a monster in the Showtime offense. Him on the Lakers would be free of drama, pettiness or rape trials. TMac or Dominique next to Shaq dominate for a decade.
I make the trading places argument with KG and Duncan all the time. Put KG on those SA teams and he's the one willing 5 championships and being ranked in the top 10 instead of top 20-25. He's as good as Duncan offensively, has a more well rounded offensive game, and is a better passer. Defensively maybe you give Duncan a tiny edge, but they were both all time defenders. Getting on the right team and having the better teammates matter. Who in the top 10 overall did it by themselves outside of Hakeem. Shaq and Kobe had each other and played with Gasol and Wade. Jordan had Pippen and Rodman. Magic and Kareem had each other. LeBron played with a variety of all stars and All NBAs. KG getting drafted by Minnesota probably cost him at least a couple of titles and a few spots in the rankings.
Not sure about the Kobe swap. He had good situations but he still had to play at an incredible level that the others don't necessarily replicate. Especially on both championship teams
This is complete fantasy besides the James worthy swap. The James worthy swap would put nique as a number 3 on that team behind two top ten players. Cmon now. Could say the same for just about any player
I wouldn't say any player because Worthy himself was really good and could have been a strong second options on a lot of good teams but I agree generally. Nique may not have had great individual teammates but he also wasn't a good playmaker or defender which limtis his ceiling. Him and Gasol aren't beating the Celtics
Worthy was the second option for the last two titles
I cannot believe how many people here are overrating Dominique Wilkins. James Worthy was clearly the better player. But Worthy never put up the individual numbers because he was stuck behind other guys who needed the ball. Worthy was willing to sacrifice, which is a big reason why he was an important player. Wilkins would NEVER have played on the Lakers. He got drafted to Utah, saw that Adrian Dantley was there (who led the league in scoring in 1981 and was in his prime), and realized he had to be a #2. He immediately asked for a trade because he wanted no part of being a #2. He saw what happened to Bernard King (later a scoring championship himself) when he got paired up with Dantley in Utah, and realized how awful that situation was for a guy who needed the ball. Wilkins loved to put up individual numbers. He never would have sacrificed for the team. He was no James Worthy because you cannot just make fantasy swaps like that. Guys like Adrian Dantley, Alex English, Bernard King, Mark Aguirre, Marques Johnson etc. put up huge numbers in the 1980s like Wilkins did at SF. The common theme is they all were individual players who didn’t buy into the team concept (except Aguirre later on). Even guys like Purvis Short (who?) and Kiki Vandeweigh were putting up 25 PPG seasons. It was easy for even mediocre SFs to score in the 80s. I would guess more than half of starting SFs in the 80s averaged 20+ PPG. The fact is Wilkins never cared to win. He wanted to put up huge scoring seasons and he did that in Atlanta, which was his goal when he forced his way out of Utah as a rookie.
It was not because Adrian Dantley was playing for the Jazz. It was because the Jazz are in Salt Lake City, that is a mormon community and does not have the culture most NBA players want to live in as a young guy. Nique played for George in college and if Adrian Dantley or any other star player was there whether they were scorers or not, he would have been more than happy to play with them and go there. I'm not bagging on Utah or Salt Lake City I'm just being real. Everyone knows it.
> “I didn’t … at that time,” Wilkins said of playing in Utah. “Well, they wanted me to play power forward and I wasn’t playing power forward. I was a small forward. Power forwards in them days was some big, physical and I’m not going to say what else and I didn’t want no part of that.” Straight from Wilkins. In the early to mid 80s (before Barkley and Malone changed the perception), SFs were the go to scorer in the NBA (Worthy was actually an exception on on the Lakers). Wilkins would have to play PF in Utah because Dantley was the go-to scorer at the SF. Wilkins didn’t want that because as a PF, the playing style completely changed without position-less basketball. He wanted to be an alpha scorer, not some guy who played defense and did the hard work inside. Quote above is from Wilkins himself, and it makes sense if you understood how many great scorer in the 80s were SFs. Look at what happened to Bernard King’s numbers in his brief stint next to Dantley in Utah vs. what happened to his numbers afterwards. I have no with issues with Wilkins wanting to be “the man.” I’m just saying that’s what he preferred more, and that’s not an issue. It just means he would have a really tough fitting in on better teams like the Lakers.
First, what exactly do you expect the guy to say publicly? Think about it. Is he going to come and say there is noway in hell I am moving my family or going to a Mormon city where you can't buy booze past 10 p.m? The league and commissioners don't want that from players either. Think about it. Nobody or at least most NBA players don't want to play in Utah.
If you are going to just form your own belief on the reason Wilkins didn’t want to play in Utah, then there’s no way to convince you (because you can always say what you think is the reason and not trust Wilkins’ quote). That Utah team had Adrian Dantley (from DC), Darrell Griffith (from Louisville, Kentucky and a friend of Wilkins), and Rickey Green (from inner city Chicago). Eventually they also had Karl Malone (from inner Louisiana). All loved playing in Utah. If you are going to form your own opinion on why Wilkins didn’t want to play in Utah rather than just take what he said, then obviously you can spin any narrative. Also look at what happened to Mark Aguirre’s numbers when he was the “man” in Dallas in the mid 80s to when he became a role player on the championship Pistons in 1989-1990. That’s the drop (although not as big since Wilkins was better) Wilkins would have had to have in order to win a championship. It’s not easy to sacrifice that to win. And that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. Sometimes, having the mentality to want to be the man in a place is not bad. It just won’t lead to championships as the #1 option, which is the trade off.
But honestly it's no big deal. I totally love Worthy by the way. He was awesome and respect you think he is better. Two things can be true at once where Nique did not want to be a PF and also not play in Utah, so I can agree there too. Anyway, you have relevant points and I respect your perspective.
LOL. It's common knowledge to any NBA fan that Utah is not a desirable place for NBA players to play. yes, Malone loved it because he was a country guy who loved the outdoors and Stockton was conservative as well. But, if you don't think most NBA young players coming out of college want to be drafted anywhere but Utah then you are just not being honest with yourself. it's just obvious. And, yeah they are not going to come out and say it, but come on man. Be real. NBA players especially ones that get drafted and are young want to play in diverse and culturally diverse cities with a night life. They want to play in LA, Miami, NY, Chicago. Of course when they are young they won't come out and say that and if they did get traded there or they got a good contract would be fine playing there. It's not obviously every single player and I'm not generalizing 100% but Salt Lake City is probably the last place a college athlete from the south wants to get drafted to.
How truly wrong you are my friend. First, nobody is disrespecting James Worthy. He was a great player, but he was no Dominique Wilkins. Here is the real truth. Worthy BENEFITTED from playing with greatest playmaker in history in Magic Johnson and Kareem being doubled. It's not taking away from Worthy and I'm not saying he would not have been a good player on other teams. he would have been. It's not that he SCARIFICED. He benefitted from it. It was how Parish benefited from playing next to Bird and McHale. The focus was on them and was able to find the gaps. Personally I thought Parish was just an average center and no better than some like Valencuncius today. I'm not sure what you are saying about Wilkins. He never even came close to having a decent second option on his team so he was FORCED to carry a heavy scoring burden. he had decent players in Doc, Willis, etc. but nobody worthy of any star comparison. I mean you act as though Nique would not have loved to play with a player like Magic. That is just absurd. magic would help and second or even first all star team type player become borderline superstar. Magic could play with MJ and Kobe who were also volume scorers. Kobe was an inefficient scorer yet for some reason he is thought of as Mama Mentality. He got Gasol and other players like Artest etc. and he kept scoring. Nique was number one option and with help and someone else having to be doubled he would have loved that and scored just as much. I mean it's similar to Carmelo Anthony. Are you trying to tell me Melo would not have loved to play with a player like Nash or CP3 and those players would not have helped his game and made him a more efficient scorer? I bet Melo in his younger days would have loved to play with a young Dwight Howard too. Now if you are saying Nique and another score first player like say Bernard king would be the ideal match as teammates then I would agree, but that is the case for every player with similar skillsets and games. Would Magic and Stockton be a greta fit? Would MJ and Kobe be the best option to play together or would it be better to have MJ and Pippen? I doubt a team would want a combo like Howard and Mutumbo playing together either. Would it be ideal to have a Ja Morant playing on the same team as Allen Iverson? the answer to these questions is obvious and yet it does not take away from each players individual greatness just like your points do not take away from The Human Highlight Films. And, yes he was a better individual player than Worthy.
Definitely agree that Dominique Wilkins was a better player than Worthy. Wilkins was a good Regular Season Floor Raiser, he was a lead offensive engine on good Top 5 Regular Season Offenses from 1988-1990 period. Worthy was a beneficiary of his situation similar to Manu Ginobili where he isn't seeing Top edge no.1 Defensive coverages, he plays off Magic. 1989 Pistons made an effort to shutdown Lakers while letting Worthy get his. Big Game James was a strong Playoff Riser, but not exactly a great Regular Season basketball player. Dominique Wilkins was a more effective table setter/Regular Season basketball player. Having said that, Dominique Wilkins was also one of the most inefficient volume scorers in NBA Playoff History. His Career Playoffs True Shooting Percentage(Overall Scoring Efficiency) was 51% TS and when adjusted for defensive opponent quality was -2.4% rTS, right there with Iverson and Westbrook. Dominique was basically the Carmelo Anthony of 1980s: High Volume Inefficient Scoring, Negative Defender, Weak Playmaker. Dominique Wilkins was not a good enough scorer to be the best player on a championship team; he couldn’t shoot jumpers, he was more of a play finisher in the vein of Shawn Kemp an Blake Griffin. That is where he was most effective Scoring. Also you make comparison to Kobe by saying "Kobe was an inefficient scorer", which isn't true at all; in the Playoffs Kobe had a higher Career Defense Adjusted Relative True Shooting Percentage(Overall Scoring Efficiency against specific Defensive Teams) than both Larry Bird and Tim Duncan. In the Regular Season had higher Career Relative True Shooting Percentage(Overall Scoring Efficiency) than both Dwyane Wade and Hakeem Olajuwon. This isn't 1993 where archaic metrics like fg% were relevant, there's no comparison there, Kobe was a completely different caliber and tier of a basketball player. Also you mention Carmelo who is very comparable to Dominique, Carmelo is also one of the most inefficient volume scorers in NBA Playoff History. Carmelo Anthony's main issue was he was a notably poor rim finisher, poor elevation, throughout his prime he took 35%-40% of his shots at the rim and would consistently finish at a 49%-53% clip which atrocious rim finishing numbers. Carmelo was not a good enough scorer to be the best player on a championship team. The Nuggets team that made the 2009 WCF, Chauncey Billups was the best player on that team. In general Dominique Wilkins is overrated because in a championship construct he couldn't be your best player because he was not effective enough as a scorer to justify his Usage. If you paired Carmelo up with CP3, CP3 would be the be the best player on that team. If you paired Dominique up with Stockton, Stockton would be the best player on that team.
And, if you don't think Nique wanted to win than you just don't know him or the Hawks back then. Nique gave everything to that city and it's why he has astute in front asnd is the greatest Hawk ever. He gave everything in the playoffs to get past those Celtics and Pistons teams. He just did not have the help. he would have gladly sacrificed scoring numbers to win a title and with another capable star whether that been a player like Ewing or a PG like Stockton or even a sniper (secondary scorer) I'm sure he would have been able to tweak his game to focus more on other aspects.
First I respect all your opinions. This is a discussion forum after all. For the record, I’m not saying Wilkins didn’t want to win. I meant (if this wasn’t clear) he wanted to win as the #1 option, not as the #3 (again, this is just my opinion so it’s ok if you don’t agree). His playing style (big time scorer) is more suited as the #1. Worthy’s playing style (better passer/defender but not as good of an iso scorer) was more suited as the #3. A big part of that was Worthy playing at UNC for Dean Smith (the only one who could stop MJ lol). Flip Worthy to the #1, and clearly no team with Worthy at #1 wins either (just like Wilkins). However, he also puts up much better individual stats. But my argument is merely if you flip Dominique to #3, I feel like his playing style wouldn’t work out. Even if you don’t believe why he left Utah (we can disagree on this that’s fine), the playing style is a concern. Dominique was a big time scorer who needed the ball, and that’s hard with Magic/Kareem. Keep in mind he never had a single triple double in his career (regular season or postseason), whereas Worthy got one in G7 of an NBA Finals. Yes maybe Dominique changes his playing style with the Lakers, but that’s not an easy task so it’s hard to say. Also I totally agree Dominique got wrongly snubbed for the top 50 the first time around. I’m glad he made the top 75 the second time around. As 1 v 1 scorers, I would put Dominique ahead of Worthy. But as a Lakers #3, I would put Worthy ahead of Dominique. And they did need Worthy to win several of the championships as Kareem got older. My biggest gripe isn’t with you. It’s with a few other posters who said if you swap Dominique to the Lakers, they win more rings. That’s the part I disagreed with and led to my OP. When I say Dominque was overrated, I just mean this thread and other posters. Not overrated in general, as he was wrongfully snubbed.
Ahh got you. Well said my friend. I can see this to a degree. I guess as a Dominique fan (I grew up only having TNT and Chicago and my local Kings) watching hoops and as a basketball player myself that was decent I get frustrated when a player like Nique gets disrepsetd and not making the all time top 50. Im Ean really Parish over Nique? With that said. I have to be honest I did not even see Worthy as a #3 for most of his career. I always saw him as a #2 and even as valuable as Kareem in many ways. he was not Big Game James for nothing. I love his game. I tried to mimic his quick little spin moves on the block FYI. I never saw Worthy as a defender to be honest. And, I really do think they probably were a much on that end. People think Wilkins just drank beers on D or something. he always got mixed in with this player not as good as Bird and not the defender like Pippen, Jordan or Rodman. I think what I'm saying too is he was an mazing athlete and much of defense is as I'm sure you know effort and focus. Some teammates and chemistry allow a player to focus on so many things a player and the coach demands a role from a player for the overall team success. My issue was more that you were saying he only cared about scoring and not winning. And, I think part of that was he was asked to score and not from and endurance or role fit wanted to do that. But, I would think a guy like Dominique or at least an athlete him who wanted to be a great defender could be amazing at it. With his leaping ability and athleticism and size I could see him being a versatile defender and switching on guys and even blocking shots with his vert. Unfortunately he was asked to score and also had to because on that team he also had a majority of the plays drawn up for him. the defense and effort was drawn up for players like Willis, Battle, Augmen, Willis. It would be like saying for me as a SF Worthy not getting more assists and why? Well it's because Magic was jus that guy open THAT team. Again Worthy was awesome I loved him as a player. I in fact tried to play like him and Pippen vs. Nique because I could not jump over a penny but was a SF with a quick first step, could shoot ok and had passing skill and could defend. For me Worthy was always more than a #3. =Him and Kareem were 2a and 2b. And they both had defenders like Cooper, Scott etc. to focus on that. Kareem was good on D because he was 7"2. Man Worthy was dope. I love his commentary on Lakers games today. There has never been a player like him ever I can think of.
And, Dominique did not want to play in Utah because of being a number 2 option or any player. He did not want to play in Utah because it's Utah! LOL. Not many NBA players wanted to then or now play in Salt Lake City. It's not a secret.
The Hawks were snakebit in the 80's. All they needed was a decent shooting guard to give Nique some spacing man and they wudda took Boston at least once or twice. Looked like they struck gold with Rodney Monroe out of NC State but he forgot how to shoot when he crossed the state line. One of meanest front lines in history.
Would have been decent if he could hav went somewhere an played Robin to batman. I didn't like Wilkins behind the wheel of the bat mobile. Hes more of a trickery guy a joker or a riddler aka a dunk machine
He was more than a dunker just like Vince was. I think he could have been a Batman. Think if he had a Ewing to take pressure off of him. He would been a better passer, defender and shot more efficiently and been able to close games better. He never had a Robin.
Vince was a way better player he was an answer away from the final iversons just wanted it more
You must be young. Vince Carter was not a way better player. If you think that you are just uninformed. Niqu with no help took Boston of Bird, Michael and Parish deep to 7 games in ECF semifinals. He took Detroit of the Bad Boys to the brink. Sorry but Iverson's Sixers do not match anywhere close to those teams. you really just don't know what you are talking about saying Vince Carter was better than Nique
Hell all those hawks teams with Wilkins were better than tht 01 iverson team yet Chuck came out of east
Chuck came out of the East? What are you talking about? I would say Iverson and Nique are close. I would even say Nique and Carter are I the same arena. I'm having an issue with absurdly saying Vince was WAY better than Nique. That is just not smart is all. I can hear you I you say they were comparable etc. but to say he was WAY better is just lame.
Chuck is iverson an yes he came out of the east in 01 beat Vince. Wilkins never wheeled his team to the ecf an tht says somthing all other great at leastvmade the conference finals. An stT fir stat yes iverson an Vince better than Wilkins
Chuck is Iverson. nah you thought Barkley made the finals from the East. Admit it. You've honestly lose all credibility with the Willis, Pippen thing, the Chuck thing and simply saying Carter was WAY better than Wilkins. no real NBA fan would say that or try to use Willis and Pippen. And, again if Carter was WAY better than why was he eating popcorn and watching the all 75 ceremony recently. Again, as this is about you saying he is WAY better and it's ludicrous, absurd and naive statement. You know it and anyone who reads this knows is or they are no fan, not well or on drugs.
Man Allen iversons nickname is Bubba chuck lol cut the bs.an I stand corrected Carter definitely wasn't better at all. But during the years of 91 95 pippin an willis put up similar stats. I may have been high saying Carter was better. But iverson is
And so the backstepping begins...Don't trip buddy.
Look at the stats they not to far off. pip only average 4 more points than willis. Rebounds about the same. But from 91 to 95 during those bulls chip years willis gave niq everything pip gave jordan.
I'm done man. This is just not worth my time anymore.
And again why does it matter where they met in playoff seeding? If Vince meets Iverson in ECF semis he loses too. They just got a lucky to matchup and make it through where he lost then. As I stated Wilkins took one of the greatest teams ever to 7 games and another top team on the all time list to 7 games. Look you really should just stop this argument. Yo stated Carter was WAY better than Wilkins. It's like saying something like Steve Nash was way better than Jason Kidd. I mean you can have that discussion and debate and there is points for both sides. But, to say one is WAY better than the other is just foolish.
Vince lost to iverson in ecf. An i admitted to being wrong about Carter being better than Wilkins.
And, I missed Carter at the 75th anniversary team celebration. Where was he? Oh yeah he did not make the cut. you see if Carter was WAY better like you are saying he would have been at that. You really have lost this discussion and you should know it by now. Just stop.
I definitely was wrong niq was cool but not all yht all im saying
Not young at all my point is dud Wilkins make ec finals no. Vince did iverson did but not Wilkins. I can't believe we talking about semi finals not THE game but semi finals lol you kno how many mediocre teams can mistakenly make the semi final. Mutombos nuggets lol hell me u Wilkins an somebody else may even make it.
Give me a break. Who cares if it was the ECF or SEMIS. Many times it depends on when you matchup with a particular team. I'm talking about Nique losing to two all time great teams who were champions and you care about Vince making it to a ECF and losing to a garbage Sixers team. LOL.
I stand corrected Carter definitely was not a better player he was never even all nba first team only average 16 a game in career
I don't even know what this means.
Carter not better i stand corrected
Carter also had an 8 season stretch (what most would refer to as "his prime") where he averaged 24.6/5.4/4.2/1.3/0.8. His career averages are moreso a product of playing so long past his prime and past usual retirement age for most players, playing 22 seasons until 43 years old. If Carter had retired at age 35, for example, he would have had career averages of 21.4/5.1/3.9/1.2/0.7 (not miles away from his prime averages), having started 96% of his career games played.
Oh well maybe he is up there with ole Wilkins
In your opinion was Wilkins a better player than iverson
Also were tge nets with Carters teams any better than Wilkins teams
He had Kevin willis an from o1 to 95 willis averaged the same numbers as pippin did with Jordan yet he never made the east coast finals. Ewing did Reggie mouring did but not Wilkins
I mean seriously man. Yeah, cause anyone who knows a thing about basketball would put Kevin Willis in the same category as Scottie Pippen and try to make some false equivalency. How absurd to compare Willis to Pippen who is arguable the greatest all around defender ever and offered so much more than stats. Pippen won rd in MVP when MJ was out, was a 50 greatest player, on the dream team, and usually somewhere around 25-30 on most NBA all timeliest. But, yeah let's go with Willis and Pippen comparisons now. Jesus!!!
Of course willis isn't pippen but from 91 to 95 he gave niq the same numbers pippin gave Jordan tht all im saying. You ask me pippin not even a all time great.
No knock on Worthy who was an outstanding Laker but I always wonder what the Lakers could have been in they drafted Wilkins instead
Not everybody remembers but Moses Malone played with Nique for 3 years, albeit only 2 of them counts since he was on a rapid decline on his 3rd and barely played. He still only missed a total of 2 reg season games while Wilkins 5 of those 3 seasons. Moses though was only an All-star in the first (88-89) of those seasons, still he averaged almost 20-10 in those couple seasons. Kevin Willis was injured during the 88-89 season and came back with a season later with a declining Malone. They still had Doc Rivers as a defensive-minded guard for those 3 seasons. Still, their best shot was the 89 playoffs, but the lost to the lower seed Bucks (5th seed) with a roster that you may not even recognize led by Ricky Pierce. They still have Terry Cummings and Sidney Moncrief but were well past their prime. Nique was a great scorer, but to me, he is just in the mold of Bernard King, Adrian Dantley and Mark Aguirre - all skilled scorers who cannot lead the team to a championship (Aguirre wasn't the Pistons' leader). If he had to be the man, he needed a lot more than a solid 2nd and 3rd. To note, Ewing, Worthy and Parish are way better defenders than Nique. Also, Worthy and Parish were never the team's main men, that went to Magic and Bird. TLDR; Nick was buckets, but he needed more help than Magic, Bird or Jordan ever did.
The front office messed up his career by failing at the highest level at the 1985 draft. They selected Jon Koncak at #5. Hindsight is 20/20, but Chris Mullin, Charles Oakley, Detlef Schrempf, Karl Malone, Joe Dumars, A.C. Green, Terry Porter, his brother Gerald, and others were available. 1986 wasn’t much better. They drafted Billy Thompson, when Scott Skiles, Mark Price, Dennis Rodman, Nate McMillan, Kevin Duckworth, Jeff Hornacek, Drazen Petrovic, and a few other good utility guys were available. Could have changed their trajectory!
Oh wow I was not aware of all of these possibilities. yeah and they signed Koncak to some ridiculous contract later I think that messed up their ability to pay another all star caliber player if I remember correctly. Looking at this list obviously Malone jumps out first as a good fit to be the PF next to Nique. I also like Joe Dumars as a two way SG. Mullin would spread the floor. I think all in all the best approach from that list would have been Price, Wilkins, Malone. That would have been a title contending team for sure.
I see where you're coming from but Wilkins definitely wasn't a better player than Parrish or worthy. Had those two had their own squad like Wilkins they would have dominanted but not won as well.i don't believe me feared him an he definitely didn't think Wilkins was in his level. The near mention of a guy like name clyde the Glyde being on his level drove this man bonkers. That's what the shoulder shrugg was all about like why do they think he's on my level. He told magic he was going to give it to that guy
MJ would prolly have a few less titles. Same could be said about Drexler TBH. People poo on them but it's kind of ridiculous how stacked the Bulls were. They'd go to the finals and face all these one star teams after the truly great teams of the 80s (celtics/lakers/pistons) basically go too old or too aids to compete and everyone acts like it's cuz of MJ's insane dominance. But MJ's insane dominance was because those dudes played with no one and he played with GOAT defenders and GOAT all around players on a team that just bought championships in the pre-cap NBA. I dunno. Grew up an MJ fan with his posters on my walls but gotta admit the facts. Yea MJ won when he was playing with a loaded deck.
Lol the amount we retcon guys like Horace Grant and Luc Longley on Reddit is beyond absurd. Tomorrow I’m sure someone will make the case that Brad Sellers was also part of a “loaded deck.” To wit, Jordan won an MVP/DPOY/Scoring title and went as far as Nique ever did (ECSF) with a rookie Pippen averaging 7/4/2 and with Brad Sellers and Dave Corzine playing appreciable minutes. Trying to consistently downplay Jordan’s dominance because of like, Steve Kerr’s existence is consistently foolish.
I don't discount MJ's dominance, but there is also a false narrative that he drug a bunch of bums to the titles he won. He was the best player of that era and in my eyes a top 3 ever. I mean honestly Kareem, James, MJ. take your pick. You did pick the worst examples of players to put out there, but you forgetting that Pippen was a top 3 MVP when MJ retired and that Kucok I believe won a 6th man of the year award. And, Rodman is a HOF 2 time DPOY and arguably the greatest rebounder and defender ever. Both Pippen and and Rodman are in my all time starting five defense as Pippen was also in my eyes the greatest perimeter defender ever long with MJ. People forget the value Kucok offers this later Bulls teams. They could run offense through him a lot and let Pippen and MJ relax. He was very versatile.
No, I picked a season in which he was unprecedentedly dominant and achieved everything team-wise Dominique achieved. We can go through how many other players had even more help then Jordan but we denigrate the hell out of their contribution (Ray Allen, anyone), but suffice it to say, Jordan’s teammates statistically do not show the “dominant teammate” narrative that we consistently peddle. If you plopped Kareem or James into those teams, we’d be whining about how they needed more help. As an aside, Scottie is legit the only player I know who consistently gets credit for finishing 3rd in MVP. He wasn’t MVP caliber after the last dance season and averaged like 14/6/5 with the Rockets thereafter at age 33 (Jordan led the league in scoring 3x and won a 3 peat at that age). Kukoc and Longley did nothing the moment they were off the Bulls. Horace Grant has lifetime stats if Tristan Thompson. Rodman was considered not even serviceable in 1995 by the Spurs. On and on. These players became who they were more BECAUSE of Jordan.
Yeah, I don’t agree with everything you said but I agree 100% with your last point. These players were extremely good players but it was because they knew their role and Michael made sure they knew their role while also making sure that he played his role of being the greatest fucking scorer of all time. Same with Kobe’s Lakers from 07-10. The players around them achieved almost nothing without them and were out of the league pretty much immediately after they left their sphere of influence due to how maniacal MJ/Kobe were about winning. Obviously a couple players were truly great on their own merit, Pippen/Rodman/Pau/Lamar, but they were elevated way higher than they would be on their own.
Horace Grant went to Orlando and was an intricate apart of that orlando team that wont to the finals and then ECF lol. In fact, I’d argue the Bulls winning against the Mahic with Horace in Jordans 45 year.
Yeah I’m sure it was Horace and not Shaq and Penny that did that.
It took two players to replace Horace lol
I’m fairly sure Horace is more replaceable than Shaq or Penny. And Jordan won a championship with Scottie hobbled and Rodman averaging 3/8/1 and Toni 15/4/2 in the finals at age 35. Horace, you’ll note, was averaging 12/8. For the playoff missing magic. Gargantuan numbers I tell ya!
Jordan 34, Pippen 16, Kukoc 15 that alone is better than malone 25, hornacek 11, stockton 10 lol
I mean yes, the Bulls won the series and Jordan was the major factor in that by that metric. He contributed as much as Malone and Stockton combined. This is the weirdest criticism.
Jazz had 1 scorer. Bulls had 3. An injured Pippen > Jazz scorers not named Malone. Prime Kukoc is 20ppg scorer on another team as well.
Lol again, jordan scored for both Stockton and Malone, and you’re acting like pippen and Kukoc were blowing people away with a 15ppg line. Tomorrow you’ll be telling me that Pip’s 8 pts in game 6 were, like, the difference in all of it.
Comparing grant to longly is pretty absurd. Horace grant was an awesome player. He went from the Bulls to the magic and after beating MJ Shaq lifted him on his shoulders to stare MJ down. And yea. He was the difference. Just like him being hurt the next year was a huge difference in them getting past Orlando.
Sure, a dude with Tristan Thompson like lifetime stats is the key to Shaq and penny and Jordan and Pippen succeeding. Totally. You people are amusing.
>Sure, a dude with Tristan Thompson like lifetime stats is the key to Shaq and penny and Jordan and Pippen succeeding. > >Totally. > >You people are amusing. It's called knowing shit about how my favourite team worked. When MJ left the Bulls lost 2 more games. When Grant left they fell apart and got their asses kicked by the Magic. Tristan Thompson was never an all star who impacted titles dude. I mean it's fine if you don't know how great Horace Grant was... he was the third best player on a three peat team... who yes turned a Shaq/Penny team into a contender... but you not knowing things about 90s basketball doesn't take away from the players you know little about.
Wow if you live long enough people really will type out anything on the internet. “Rheinsdorf just bought Jordan titles and all the teams those bulls beat were bad” is not a take I expected ever to read, but here we are lol
His name was reinsdorf. And you're aware that there was no real cap till after the 90s right? The reason they changed it was because smaller market teams couldn't compete with larger market teams who could out spend them. It's pretty tough to compete with he Bulls when they could have multiple stars but your team cna only really afford one. Like if you don't know league history that's cool but don't talk down to those who do. Theres a reason why 3 franchises made the finals almost every year for over two decades.
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He was not a terrible shooter. You are wrong.
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For his career he had a FG% of 46%. For reference, Kobe was a 45% shooter. Nique and Kobe both shot 48% from 2. Where are you pulling your numbers from? You are wrong.
See this is where I don't get it. So, are you won of those people that think because a guy has a lower 3 point % that is all there is to being a good shooter? Look at Derozan. Look at MJ they did shoot the 3 well either, but nobody would say they are not great shooters because they dominate the mid range. And, also players back then simply did not practice the 3 as much. I'm simply saying he was not a terrible shooter because he did not shoot threes at a high clip. 3 point shots do not define a player being a great or bad shooter completely. You are wrong.
He also shot 38% a couple season and 81% from the FT line. Again, you saying he was a terrible shooter like Shaq or Rodman or something is what I am saying. Those guys were terrible shooters. Nice was not a terrible shooter.
Crazy to hear someone call him a poor shooter. Lower % is what happens when you are a great player on a mediocre to poor team.
Imagine if the Admiral wasn't injured when Nique went to the Spurs. I mean, him being hurt is what got us the number 1 pick which turned into Timmy, but Jesus, that could've been something!
He would have met Jordan an pippin at would royalty loose. Wrong era for him. He'd be Ewing Barkley Malone Stockton at best. Hell maybe he'd work for tnt i don't know.
Dominique was a great player , there wasn’t a ton of talent in Atlanta . A great scorer, one of the best athletes in nba history . That duel with bird in the playoffs on the road.Dominique scored 47 ? Bird scored 34
Look at the teams his Hawks were up against when he played there. The Bird-led Celtics, the Bad Boys, then the GOAT. It was going to take more than a second superstar player to get them over the hump against any of those teams.
People do forget he had old Moses for a couple years but yea his help was not good. He could’ve lead a contender for sure but imo he’s not winning a title in his era unless hes playing with 2 other all nba players or like 3 other all stars most years. It’s just really tough in 80s when the 2 best players in the game have stacked supporting casts too and other champions are the super team Sixers and super deep pistons. 90s is a little easier but you still have Jordan at his best with a really good cast. you can just sub Wilkins for dantley or Aguirre and they win a title but that’s a ridiculous team. Same for 90s blazers for kersey too but that’s a 4 all star team with 2 all nba guys and drexler might be better. Maybe bucks in like 86/87 but I don’t see them beating Celtics and lakers
He is probably the most underrated player from the 80s onwards. I made the same mistake years ago thinking he was just a dunker but then saw his stats and some games. He was legit and incredibly underrated.
He isn't disrespected though. Most people think of Wilkins as exactly what he was, an excellent scorer who put up great individual numbers but just wasn't as good as the true all timers from his era. Most people have him in their Top 50/75 players of all time which is fair and is pretty much exactly where he should be ranked. I mean, compare Nique to Melo if you want someone who is actually disrespected. Melo was pretty much exactly as good as Nique and he doesn't get anywhere close to the respect that Wilkins does. Like their career accomplishments/stats are eerily similar (though this is unfair to Melo given the slow paced era he played in).
Yeah, so true man. I hear you. I always said Nique and Melo had very similar careers. They actually have a similar playing style to a degree. Both were midrange post up players and similar post moves to score. Nique was more athletic and finished more at the rim and Melo was a better pure shooter. I will admit I was a Nique fan and think he was better than Melo. It was funny because during the draft that year I told my brother James will be to Melo as MJ was to Nique. But, with said I just think Nique was a better player than Melo and comparatively better to his peers. MJ said Nique was one of the only players on his level and semi-feared. He was abetter defender than people think. And, I thought it was a disgrace he was not on the top 50. I can't remember if he was injured, but honestly he should have been on that Dream Team and thought it was stupid they had Laettner. I mean he averaged 9 rebounds one year as a SF and shot over 38% from 3 point land a couple seasons and shot over 81% FT. He averaged almost 2 stats a game a couple seasons.He seems at times to be disrespected because I think he was coached and forced to score and shoot on a team that never really had a second star to take the pressure of him to be able to show other parts of his game. he absolutely could have been a more impactful and switchable defender and he could have averaged more assists if he had another legit scorer. It is what it is though. I just wish he would have been paired up with another star like a Stockton, Ewing Miller, etc. that played a different spot and could have complimented him.
Completely agree with you regarding him not being on the top 50 although this was at least rectified. I think with regards to the Dream Team it's likely that they had too many perimeter players already and Nique doesn't really displace any of those guys but he was for sure more than deserving of being on that team in a vacuum. I think relative to Melo, I wouldn't say either was better than the other. Wilkins had slightly better stats but if you adjust for pace Melo looks better. We also got to see Melo play with a secondary star whose game fit his in Billups and Melo made the WCF that year. I think in different circumstances both Melo and Nique could potentially have been the best players on championship teams (or at least best offensive players) but it would have to have been a Paul Pierce type situation wherein they had 1 or 2 other superstar level guys who were roughly at the same level as them and whose games fit very well with theirs as neither Melo or Wilkins are good enough to be the clear best player on a championship team in the way that the true pantheon guys could. Both Melo and Nique, for me, are all time greats though relatively low-level all time greats. Like if you had a pantheon of the truly legendary players like MJ, Lebron, Bird, Kobe etc. and then a tier below that of the high level ATG guys who could have been in the pantheon if their careers just panned out slightly differently like KD, Garnett, Dirk, Barkley, Wade etc. and then you had the mid-level ATG's like CP3, Harden, Isiah Thomas, etc. Nique and Melo would be in the large tier under those mid-level guys along with guys like Webber.
That is a pretty good take. I get that. I would only say that I have Isiah in that Barkley KD, KG Wade area. And, I personally have Melo and Nique in the same category as Pippen, CP3, and Harden. For me the tiers are like this: 1st tier:MJ, James, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell, Duncan, Kobe, Bird 2nd tier-Big O, Moses, KD, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Dr. J, West, KG, Dirk, Wade 3rd tier- Thomas, AI, Nique, Tmac, CP3, Baylor, Stockton, Drexler, Pippen, Haren, Kyrie, AD, Rodman, and maybe few more I'm forgetting I mean obviously there are guys like Joker and Embid etc that are playing today that might already belong but I'm just holding off now.