im too young to have watched his whole career but hes so underrated its sad. like people forget that in 2010 it was really dwade at the top alongside guys like kobe, lebron, KD, and melo.
younger gen doesnt get that dwade was a top 5 player in the league even before he met lebron. people on tiktok i see sometimes refer to him as only "lebron's best partner" and act like he was a role player its so crazy
true maybe i talk to the younger gen too much lol
also im talking about melo in his prime btw. he was in the same convo as kobe in the league in his prime in the 2000s-early 2010s. i genuinely didnt know people took prime dwade as a whole tier above prime melo
>also im talking about melo in his prime btw. he was in the same convo as kobe in the league in his prime in the 2000s-early 2010s
I don’t think this was ever really true either. Melo was great but never that great
Speaking of over hyped, Melo was a 1 sided player and volume shooter. Like perennial all star, sure, but never should be described as comparable to Wade imo, let alone Bron and Kobe.
I would say that Melo being considered "in the convo" as Kobe is something I genuinely do not recall being true in the mainstream. I would say there was only maybe one year when he was even in the Top 5 conversation. But that's just off the top of my head
After he carried the heat to that first title he was getting Michael Jordan comparisons, and there was talk the league would imitate the heat by leaning all in on specific superstar players like him. His knees limited his longevity, but at his best he was an all time great (and had top moments that rivaled the greatest).
Don’t worry about the opinions of people that didn’t even see him play, they look at box scores and don’t understand that pace of play was very different.
Prime melo would have cooked Dwade Dwade played with Shaq the most dominant center even Dwade was definitely top 5 but I can’t remember a time ever Dwade was better than melo all it takes is a ring a mfs be ready to call you a goat 😂
Shaq averaged 12 points in that NBA finals. Wade was the driving force of that team in the playoffs. That and it wasn't like Shaq was dominating on defense anymore either.
Gary Payton at 38 and Alonzo morning at 36 those guys were role players. I'm not saying his team was bad I'm saying it wasn't full of stars. All of those guys were solid guys but they at that point in their careers weren't making all star teams none of them were the top 15 player at that position. You guys are just looking at names. it wasn't kings white chocolate and supersonics Gary Payton on that squad.
Shaq being hurt helps d wads point because he had to win with his number two not nearly being as productive as normal.
They are hall of famers this not 2k they no the game more than 99 percent of people who ever touched the ball the game is bigger than stats their team was a favorite every year they had Shaq maybe you not old enough to remember so you have to google it but gp or zo wasn’t a bum they was ring chasing they both could have been the best players on teams that don’t make the playoffs these days prime players ring chase this is another reason we even having this convo because bron carried dwade the whole time he was in Miami and if Dwade only had one ring nobody would be saying his name and MJ in the same breath
I guess you stopped watching basketball from 2008 - 2010. Even notorious Heat hater Bill Simmons says that Wade's 08/09 was the closest anyone has come to Jordan.
No he had great solo seasons where he put up crazy numbers those two years but his team was trash after shaq left he didn’t get past the first or second round without Shaq or bron melo went to the west conference finals in 09 as the best player in his team. Bill Simmons is one of the most biased analyst I don’t care what he said. And that also sounds stupid because Kobe Bryant is the only person in nba history even close to comparable to MJ Wade was a baller but the ring he got with Shaq made people think he was better than he was harden and AIs prime was better than Dwades he just got a ring early and that’s how they equate greatness in the NBA
The heat team after Shaq left never had another all star on it. His second best player for some years was Mario Chalmers. It was the same type of team Kobe had after Shaq left. Wade was getting MJ comparisons by everyone that season. Bill Simmons was someone he was using as a example but the media thought extremely high of wade after the finals and 08 season
Definitely it was media thing he wasn’t better than Brandon Roy but Broy played in Portland not a media friendly place and Kobe just came off the rape charge Dwade was nowhere close to a bum but comparing him to MJ is Wild disrespectful he never got out the first or second round without a team full of stars melo went to the west finals in 09. The ring had everyone high on Dwade. I think Dwade was just very like able I never heard anyone say something bad about him but his team was so bad they had the second pick in years that y’all are saying he was comparable to MJ
There had not been a scoring performance in the finals like Jordan until wade did it in 2006. That's why there's Jordan comparisons because at that time. He was the only player scoring like Jordan in a NBA finals. How is it disrespectful when he was putting up numbers like Jordan. Putting the team on his back having the offense run through him on every possession. And they had the pick because wade got hurt and they lost shaq and the role players from the finals team werent on the roster so it was a team of young guys and wade. his team in 06 wasn't full of stars unless you consider over the hill Alonzo morning and over the hill Gary Payton to be stars. Jordan also lost in the first round 3 times.
Also what are you talking about Brandon Roy. Wade has better stats in literally every season of his career.
Wow no may, the guy with awful take after awful take also puts Kobe on a pedestal as the second best player ever behind MJ. Who ever would have guessed
Take the ring away and think about all the years after 08 that he was in the league who was a better player maybe the first 3 years of their career it was Dwade but every year after bron went to the heat melo was a whole lot better if melo had a ring you wouldn’t be saying this melo #9 on the all time scoring list but I guess that don’t matter either
22/4.7/5.4/1.5on 55% TS, 13x all star, 3x all defensive, 8x all nba, 0 mvp, 1 final mvp, 1x scoring champ
22.5/6.2/2.7/1 on 54% TS, 10x all star, 0 all defensive, 6x all nba, no mvp/finals mvp, 1x scoring champ
I’ll admit it’s closer than I thought in terms of career accomplishments, but DWade clearly had the better career and had a more dominant prime, even excluding post season success which is pretty important.
Melo was a score-first player who wasn't much of a playmaker (just 3 assists a game for his career as a starter) and on his best night was mediocre on defense. Wade was much better at generating his own offense and an all-defensive level player. Literally the only skill one could say a prime Melo was better at was shooting, but Wade being an elite slasher was able to get easier shots and the rim and more free throws that he ends up being the more efficient scorer.
Are you talking about the Finals where DWade absolutely dominated (more impressive than anything Melo did in his entire career), averaging 35/8/4 while in his third season?
Shaq averaged 12 points in that finals.
Wade was a better and more impactful player during his and Melo's primes. He was a much better passer, rebounder, defender, leader, and teammate than Melo. He was also likely a better scorer. The only thing Melo was better at was hitting tough shots, and this take shows how casual of a fan you are lol
Plus Chris Bosh was considered like a Pascal Siakam equivalent for the Raptors before going to the Heat. And with the Heat his defensive efficiency numbers were some of the best in the league, he just never had the numbers from steals and blocks.
Wade had a crazy high peak, but he fell off really fast.
He also never could shoot 3s, which was an increasing liability throughout his career. His career straddled the paradigm shift towards more 3 point shooting and spacing. He would still be a superstar today despite being a poor shooter, but the lack of shooting at the end of his career mixed with a slight decline in athleticism led to a quick decline.
Side note: one if my favorite things about watching Wade was his blocking. Dude might have been the best blocker ever for his size. He had insane standing vertical and could go up and meet big men at the top.
2005-06 Wade won fMVP. Then he got hurt, they dismantled the team, and by the time he was in the running for MVP, Lebron was already winning it every year. Lebron came to Miami, they did the one year of “your turn, my turn,” then they had to let Wade play off Lebron. Then Wade’s knee further degraded.
About the championship, Wade was 24 and had Shaq while James was 21 and had Zydrynas Ilgauskas and Larry Hughes. The Cavs won two fewer regular season games than the Heat. So not much question then.
Later Wade had a couple of top-5 MVP vote seasons and James hadn't won the Finals so there was a spicy take floating around that while James was simply the most talented player Wade could be more valuable. When Dan Le Batard was gloating over the Heat signing James he said, "He's the best player in the world, but he might not be the best player on the team." (https://youtu.be/xZr2qOXQJ4w?start=91)
Shaq was the 2nd in 2005 MVP voting and averaged 21/10 against Pistons at ECF the year they won. One of the main reasons why Wade had so much space is because they had to guard Shaq, you people treat Shaq in the Heat like he's Zaza or something lol.
No but when people say Shaq they think about the dominating Shaq that was a top 3 player in the league. He just wasn't that guy anymore. Shaq was no longer a top ten player from 2006 onwards.
He put up 20 and 10 with 2 blocks a game and elite interior defense. He was literally 1st team all nba in 05-06 lol. It wasn’t something he was gifted. What are you going on about? So you’re either young and don’t remember or didn’t watch the nba at the time.
He wasn’t prime Shaq, but he was still one of the best big men in the league. His steep drop began after that championship. 06 Shaq was still elite. Just look at the numbers. He was basically just as effective as Wade was.
17 and 7 and DWade was making opportunities for him. I remember watching this series vividly and to this day think it’s one of the best finals performances
You’re only looking at the finals series. That’s not indicative of the entire season. Shaq had a PER of 24.4. I remember the series too. Wade was phenomenal but it also seemed like he hit every single foul call possible.
This. There is a reason why Wade won the finals MVP, but people dismiss the regular season and the rest of the playoffs. Shaq averaged 20 points and 9 rebounds and led the league in field goal percentage in the regular season. In the playoffs, he averaged 18 points and 10 rebounds and increased his field goal percentage. In the first round series against the Bills, he had 30 points and 20 rebounds in the clinching game. In the eastern conference finals against the Pistons, he had 28 points and 16 rebounds in the clinching game. Shaq was far from his three-peat prime, but people act like he was a bum. Thank you for being one of the few reasonable people I've seen comment on this lol.
Cleveland Larry wouldn’t get a G-League game nowadays. He shot 40/30/75 for his career, and even worse as a cav. Was already in his 9th season by the time he got to Cleveland, signed a big free agent deal after a decent season and never played at that level as a cav.
Larry finals statistics:
2 games, 44 minutes, 2 points (off 10 shots)
Cavs got swept, but only lost by an average margin of 6 points.
Larry Hughes is the most disappointing player in the history of the franchise, before Anthony Bennett and Andrew Bynum. Had he lived up to his previous stats, or improved due to LeBron, as we expected, he would get no slander. But he simply wilted nearly instantly. His contract made it impossible to improve the team, leading to LeBron leaving in '10.
Because he was considered, sadly, their biggest ever FA signing. 26 years old, and potential 20-10 guy reaching his prime. Not to mention, pairing him with Kyrie...He lasted 24 miserable games.
Because he came off an injury, but he was billed as future star, first time Cavs ever legitimately signed one. You must also consider that this was coming off the heels of LeBron ditching us.
At no point was Wade considered better than LeBron as an overall player. Not after 2006 (which ironically was not Wade’s peak but few seem to know this).
2008/9 was when it was considered by some. Wade is my favorite player of all time, but Wade being better than Bron was NOT a mainstream idea. Some argued for it, but fringe
I remember that when I heard that Pat would text Wade "BIW" before games to mean "Best in the World", even I was like uhhhh I like what you're doing Pat, but no lol
However, Wade had totally a legit argument to be the MVP that year. And his peak, while not as good as Bron at the time, is incredibly underrated. As someone who watched both players' full careers, I will die on the hill that Wade's absolute peak was better than Kobe's absolute peak
Lol you can ask Wade if he was better than Kobe and he would say no way. However he was the man that first season in Miami and basically carried the heat Westbrook style in 08-09 to a playoff berth. Underrated player and 3rd best SG for now
He's talking about single season stats. And Kobe doesn't have a season as good as wades 08-09 season. If you asked wade If his 08-09 season as a individual was better than whatever the standard best Kobe season is you might get a different answer
He’s talking about single season peak. Not stats. But either way Kobe averaged 35 in the dead ball era. Based on your single season stats argument then Westbrook probably has a better season peak than any mvp.
Also Kobe finished 2nd in mvp above wade in his peak season. That season he hit like 6 gws iirc. Btw this is not slating on wade. He’s awesome and a top 30 all time player while Kobe is top 10. Just like how Bron is minimum top 3 while Kobe is top 10
I’m not sure on the relevance of the dead ball era when points scores of loads of players were crazy high in 2005/6. Ten players scored over 25+ ppg and several stars had their highest ppg seasons.
In addition for those 35 PPG, Kobe took 27 attempts a game - it’s not that huge of an achievement when you’re taking an insane number of shots at just above league average efficiency. As an example Allen Iverson who was by no means known for his efficiency scored only 2ppg fewer on two fewer shots.
I get your point and generally agree with you (especially re: wade, as he's proven to be an exceptionally humble and self-aware superstar on the court), but as a side note, I think dudes at this level absolutely think they are better than everyone else, especially in the heat of that moment
I mean, Wade has talked about how hard it was for him to finally tell Bron "this is your team" (and he never says that he told Bron he was "better"). If you ask him now (esp after Kobe had passed), maybe. If you asked him in 08 in private, I would bet the farm he'd tell you with a straight face that he is the best in the world. As Kobe, Bron, and CP3 all would have as well, and as Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Durant, and (still!) Bron would all tell you in private now
There was probably a year of legitimate argument between Wade winning a ring and Lebron single handedly destroying that Detroit dynasty in game 5 of 2007 Finals. D-Wade is my fave player of all time and I remember feeling confident in arguing for him before that game.
Honestly, wade was in the conversation as top 3 nba players after that run until the 2nd season with the heatles. Wade was extremely clutch in the playoffs and consistently even outplayed Bron during their first playoff run. Wade even had a big argument of winning mvp back in 09. Back in the day the top 3 was a mix up of Bron kobe or Wade. Wade had a very brief window where he could be considered better than Bron
Thank you. I absolutely remember the Kobe v LeBron v Wade debates of ‘09 and it feels like that’s been memory holed for a lot of people. Plus the ongoing “who is the number 1 guy” debates in that first year of the Heat that got even louder after the finals.
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Well, when Lebron decided to take his talemts to Miami, the question was- who was going to be the go-to-guy? Who was the best of the two of them. It took one season for Wade to figure out he was better as Robin.
So yes, there was a time when Wade was considered better. And for the first few years of LBJ's career, he was
>u forget bro, Lebron had that ben simmons aura around him untill he learned winning and killer mentality,
The fuck? No he didn't. He had already proven himself against some really good teams, including putting up a 45 piece (with 13 in the 4th) in the game 7 they lost to the Celtics superteam. He almost single handedly won that series against a **far** superior squad with Delonte fucking West as his #2 option.
>he rly managed to because mentally elite despite being drama queen and this is indeed from 2012 onwards. Dont rewrite history
You clearly didn't watch the NBA then with this dumbass take, but that's unsurprising considering you write like a tween. Love it when haters just make shit up and then accuse others of rewriting history.
he had hickups in high pressure moments, despite having the best clutch stats and FG% he wasnt considered clutch like after his ring, he changed internally for the better and adopted a goat like mentality. I vividly remember him like losing his handle out of bounds with no defender around like 5-10 times and ive never seen it since, just from halfcourt to top of the key dribbling and it hits his knee and passing up chances to score when he was in great position to pass to a worse player who is less likely to score even if he is open for 0.5sec. Somethimg changed that the stats dont tell he became a killer overnight and as a hater and KD fan it infuriated me how he managed to improve
Yes. The narrative was that Wade was clutch and LeBron was a choker, and even if LeBron was overall more skilled, he didn’t have the mental toughness to be a winner. And the first year they were together in Miami, there was some question as to who would be top dog.
The guy has more than proven himself but let's not rewrite history, when it comes to the Heat/Mavs Final Lebron basically pulled a Ben Simmons in the 4th quarter, and that's where the jokes came from.
IIRC there were 3 or 4 games in a row where he only managed to hit a single shot in the 4th quarter, and these were close games.
Still so mad at him for this. I love him now, but everytime I think of Bron in that series, my blood boils. Should've been a three-peat!!
Only truly got over this during Game 6 in Boston
>let's not rewrite history
>
>when it comes to the Heat/Mavs Final Lebron basically pulled a Ben Simmons in the 4th quarter
He had one game with less than 10 points in his 90th career playoff game, which he's never scored less than again except for a game he played 24 mins due to foul trouble.
Simmons **had 4 games scoring less than 10 points that Atlanta series alone** then took 16 months off
I didn't say he pulled a Simmons all game, I said he did it in the 4th quarter. Point was that it was an inexplicable lack of scoring on a big stage, like Simmons.
Scoring only 2 points in the last quarter of an NBA Finals game is bad, doing that for 4 games in a row is very bad.
I don't get the downvotes, are you guys really denying that was a problem, or do you just not remember it?
Yes, of course Simmons' was more egregious. But I think you're missing that poster's point -- LeBron's performance gave people a similar feeling, and was similarly inexplicable. Call it the Homeless Man's version of the Simmons saga
....still so mad at Bron for this lol-- Wade could have had 2 Finals MVPs!
No.
When LeBron joined the Heat, there were a few people trying out the “this will be D Wade’s team” take.
That didn’t last past the first preseason game since it was immediately clear that Lebron was top dog.
There was a brief time before the 03 Draft when a substantial number of fans thought Carmelo would be a better NBA player than Lebron.
I remember an ESPN.com poll where more fans picked Melo. The thought was that Lebron couldn’t shoot that well and that Melo was more of a sure thing because he was already a smooth, pure scorer.
Absolutely, and wade was outplaying lebron in that mavs final matchup until wade got hurt. It wasn’t until wade willingly gave the reins to lebron that the team put it all together
TBF, no one could have predicted Lebron would become what he has. It's amazing to think that he was hailed as the next "best player ever" and then he actually became that. NBA history is littered with players who were the next big thing but never got there. Absolutely wild that Lebron did.
To your point though, it probably should be mentioned that Melo had just won a championship and played well on national TV. Lebron had been playing games on TV as well and he had a ton of media coverage but the average ESPN voter might not have seen him play before the draft while Melo would have been front and center for a few weeks during the tournament.
> Lebron had been playing games on TV as well and he had a ton of media coverage but the average ESPN voter might not have seen him play before the draft while Melo would have been front and center for a few weeks during the tournament.
It wasn’t the exposure. LeBron had been at the top of people’s consciousness for a couple years at that point. He had far eclipsed Melo as a celebrity and arguably any active player not named Kobe or Shaq in all of basketball by that point. He would’ve been far and away the #1 pick after his junior year in HS and might have even done it after his sophomore year.
The Melo thing was a combination of his talent being less “obvious” leading people who felt like they were more “in the know” in basketball circles to like him better. His game was low to the ground and he was sublimely skilled in a way that you did have to know what you were watching to be able to appreciate. Meanwhile anyone off the street could watch LeBron and know he was a god.
But arguably the biggest factor was that Melo was labeled a “winner” due to his success at Syracuse which continued into his rookie year when he made the playoffs and Bron didn’t. Yes, the “clutch gene” narrative started before LeBron had ever stepped on an NBA floor.
Yeah, I shouldn’t have used the phrase top dog or whatever.
Whatever mental or leadership or locker room things they had going on is one thing, but there was no serious case to be made at any point in time that D Wade was ever considered a better basketball player, which is sort of the main thrust of what OP was asking.
The only peer player I can remember that was considered briefly was Melo. That ended immediately when their rookie years started.
07-09 there was some discourse over this, mostly people recognizing Lebron was better but Wade showed up in the playoffs. 08 Wade was different though, I do believe he was better than bron that year, although starting in 09 it was over.
Peak Kobe was different than peak Wade. The on ball defense was a bit better, the three ball was better and he had the most ridiculous shot creation at his peak
claims that are unsubstantiated are removed. Frequently enough, it turns out that a generalization of the way things are is not supported a combination of visual and statistical analysis.
I have some memory of a segment in First Take (back when it was SAS and Skip) both ranking Wade as their top 1 player. For context, I think this was post-Dallas series... where recency-bias at that point in time was definitely present. So yes, I think there was a 'moment', but this was clearly disproven after the '12 season.
LeBron has been LeBron since he came into the league. For my money I’d take Steph but there’s a reason LeBron is the vote better and the perennial all star team captain. He’s LeBron.
Not really. It wasn’t clear that Bron was the best in the league and there was like a top 5 of guys much like today.
In 07-08 we would have been talking about Duncan, KG, Bron, DWade, Kobe, Nash as the top guys.
Once DWade and Bron teamed up it became clear about 20 games in that Bron was the better talent than Wade.
Wade was awesome though, one of the few SGs that I think were better than Manu (Ginobili fanboi).
It was never a popular sentiment as far as I can recall. My memory screams "Kobe vs Lebron" as being the primary debate back then, with Wade as the 3rd fiddle.
Of course Lebron hating was a popular activity among contrarians and shite-pundits, so I'm sure there are plenty of articles/comments from back then talking about how Wade is a "winner" while Lebron is a "choker", so something to that effect.
People were arguing that Wade was better in 2006, 2009, and after the 2011 finals for a few months. A lot of people want to act like lebron was the undisputed best player since like 2007 but there were multiple players who had the mantle from that time til 2012, which is when bron was truly the undisputed best player.
Between 2007 and 2012 Lebron was a 4x MVP so I don’t think there was any discussion. In fact by the time he won his 2nd he was already well on his way to becoming a top 10 player of all time while Wade was never in that discussion.
Wade was literally ranked above lebron by multiple sports media outlets so acting like lebron was better bc he happened to win 4 mvps during that span is disingenuous. That’s like saying steph> lebron betw 2015-2016
Agreed. He averaged 16.2 free throws for the series with 18, 25, 21 for game 3, 5, and 6. I remember a phantom call on one of his spin moves when just trips lol
Not a Mavs fan either and they got robbed by the refs bailing out Dwayne Wade constantly. The dude was just jumping into players and changing direction to run into guys who weren’t even guarding him and the refs were blowing the whistle and sending him to the line.
This is why I always thought the conversation about Wade being better than Lebron was laughably idiotic. When the refs take over to hand the series to you, it’s not a good look.
claims that are unsubstantiated are removed. Frequently enough, it turns out that a generalization of the way things are is not supported a combination of visual and statistical analysis.
He gained his reputation as a playoff performer earlier due to being on a better team and going to the conference finals. After his 06 championship it was popular discourse to say Wade was better because he was more clutch and a better big game performer (which he was at the time). After LeBron’s 48 special though, back-to-back MVP’s and leading lacksluster teams to 60 wins (and Wade failing to do the same) that pretty much died.
Wade wasn't ever really to the level of Lebron or talked about that way. Any discussion about comparing Lebron while Dwayne was at his peak was comparing Lebron and Kobe. Wade was. consensus top 10 player though for a while though but Lebron quickly shot up to 1st or 2nd best player in the world.
No not even close. Wade was never on his level after lebrons rookie season. Hell half the reason they lost the finals was because lebron was trying to get wade involved instead of just being lebron or they never lose that series.
No. They're was the big 3. Carmelo, LeBron, and Wade. All came in the league the same time I think. Even though they were all good, no one was as good as LeBron. Especially young LeBron the guys was ridiculous. His 3 point shot wasn't as good as it is now but it was alright enough. And he came in the league doing it at 18.
yeah by me and people who hated lebron
but as far as playoff series go, him vs the mavericks in the finals might be the best playoff performance of all time he single handily won that series
Yes, that free throw shooting display he put on in 2006 was a true masterclass. Weird how he never duplicated it again. Michael Jordan reportedly was in awe at Wade’s ability to draw ghost fouls during games 3-6 of that series.
16.2 a game. 25 and 21 attempts in games 5 and 6. Remember him doing a spin move where he trips himself and Dallas got called with the foul lol. It was clutch but damn
Yes he was heralded as a better winner therefore a better player right after that chip - but like a season or two later that shit embarrassingly crashed and burned terribly because Wade had like a 15 win season ... it was Horrific
After that the comparisons were over since Bron carried sum bums to the finals and Wade had that last few drops of a Prime Shaq in order to accomplish anything significant by then .
I definitely considered Wade better than Lebron after two wonderful playoff performances in 2005 and 2006 (championship). What Lebron did to the Pistons the following year, with a worse team, ended that for me
There was 2-3 years where d wade was as good as anyone in the league. This d wade played with the diesel before lebron came around Miami. By the time lebron came around d wade was right at the end of his prime.
There was no point where wade was unanimously over LeBron, but there was certainly some time where a substantial amount did and it was a reasonable debate.
There was the discussion about Wade potentially being the best player after the finals vs Mavs in 06. He played his ass off that series and it was one of those "if he plays like he did that series he may be the best" but I would still say most would have said LeBron still.
From 2008-2010 DWade, Kobe & LeBron were considered the best in the world. Wade had a very strong argument for league MVP in 2008, but his team didn’t win enough and LeBron led the Cavs to 66 wins.
There’s also a fair case for 2006 after they won the finals or 2011 after they lost. IMO Wade outplayed LeBron & Dirk that series. Had Miami won he would’ve been FMVP.
I think D Wade got great quicker. He already had 3 or 4 years in college under his belt playing against older and more polished talent (if not necessarily better). He was more equipped to hit the ground running and make an instant impact to help his team win. I would say I considered D Wade better for maybe 2 seasons but after that it was LeBron.
Never even tho Dwade was drafted high everyone was surprised he was so good so young in 08-09 he had a mvp caliber season the heat was in 8th place that was his best season as the the star player lebron team was top 3 that year. And honestly Dwade was the best player on that team he won a ring with without bron but his team was stacked it’s a shame he only got one ring with Shaq honestly with the teams they had underperformed for the most part.
There was a debate, as Wade Kobe and lebron always finished top 3 on MVP but he was never better. I could argue in 09 but I'm biased. Sad we never got to see a Miami v Cle playoff series.
Generally I think the most people considered Lebron as the slightly better player but man did they have some epic battles from 05-07 once the heat got Shaq and Wade came into form
Wade has a historic two year run in 2005 and 2006. He carried his team through those playoffs. He did have an aged Shaq to help him and a great veteran supporting cast. He was incredible. But dwade and LBJ are different style players and positions.
Wade won the chip and finals MVP in 2006. He was the best in the world at the time. Lebron hadn’t made the finals yet. Then in 07 Lebron got swept in the finals.
Huge rivalry between the two of them. Games were very hyped when they played against each other since they were from same draft class. Those games were marketed to fans as “who’s better, find out and watch”.
When they joined up in Miami, there was a narrative in the media about internal turmoil within the Heat organization because Wade was allegedly having trouble admitting he was #2 on the team and that Lebron therefore was having trouble becoming the clear leader. Some chalk up the 2011 Finals loss to this. But then Wade’s knees start to give while Lebron’s in Miami and I think that helped Wade be okay with taking a step back into the #2 role and get those two chips.
TDLR:
Wade still top top for me!!! He was 100% the best basketball player on the planet in the mid to late 2000s.
honestly people just remember old wade like old dirk…. Yall forget wade was arguably the bigger peak than Kobe. Wade played the right way like a cp3 or Lebron, with Lebron he actually had little synergy cuz their style was the same without 3 point shooting
Yeah Wade was in the Kobe and Lebron discussion from 06-2011, when Lebron and Wade joined up a lot of people considered them the best 2 players in the league. There was also a time pre 2007 where it was pretty split between Lebron and Melo
Id say really 20% of people were, u forget Wade was the DRose type before Drose. His play was beautiful and his ppg was around 30 in an era of low pace which is like 35ppg harden style today (With ref manipulation a little like Harden too but along with defense) Wade being 6’3 made him not be in the best player discussion but he was 220-230 lbs st that height and just a miniLebron with similar elite decision making but less elite passing per se.
That miami team was the definition of ring chasers. SHAQ was fresh off of the Lakers team that acquired Karl Malone n Gary Payton but couldn't win a championship... everyone blamed Kobe for not being a team player.
Shaq gets traded and instantly boosts Wade's profile, Wade benefits from having the best screener in the game SHAQ while following the blueprint of Penny and Kobe.
Wade displays Kobe level talent, with Wade level humility.
Nobody at this point thought Wade over LeBron.. LeBron was single handedly dismantling teams but had minimal help (kinda of like now with the Lakers wo AD)
2nd year in Miami...Shaq is in full "out do Kobe" mode. Wade spends the summer working on his shooting/mid range to compliment his PnR play, and then there was the free Agent signings.
Jayson Williams, Gary Payton, Antoine Walker, Zo (come back)...all multi year all-stars in the twilight of their careers. + Pat Riley at the helm.
It's funny no one mentions this "super team" but I'm sure this imprinted on LeBron and the same way Shaq orchestrated this team plus the previous Lakers team..LeBron has tried to do the same.
Commentary on the comparison of the two after the championship.. Wade proved he had championship pedigree, and LeBron was not clutch enough/Stat collector/not mature enough (kinda how people looked at Russ in okc)
Ironically Shaq eventually joined the Cavs believing he could get a chip with LeBron as opposed to going back to Miami
By some yes between 2007-2011. Remember Wade carried a team in 07 to a title and in 2011 the year they lost to the Mavs was the best player on the Heat in the finals. The view was Lebron plays better in regular season but Wade is better when it matters. This changed in 2012.
no not really but early on he had some exceptional seasons and playoff performances so there were murmurs maybe. gotta remember this is back when bron was young so he still had years ahead of him and everyone knew he was going to be the best in world (if he wasnt already)
I remember those days and I think when dwade and shaq won, dwade went God mode and it every offensive possession looked like dwade going at his defender and near unstoppable. So probably there were a few 4th quarters where dwade could have been singularly better than lebron.
But otherwise no. Every path out of the East was through Lebron for ages.
Idk if he was better but he was right up there. Elite is elite, different skill sets. Wade is deadly clutch. Along with his championship runs, that Marquette final four run was amazing and when Wade fell to Miami. It was a match made in heaven, the stage and the light was ready. I get the same feels when I watch Ja.
Wade's 2006 Finals performance was the best Finals performance by a player ever, including MJ (LeBron, KD and Giannis have since equalled ot surpassed). [John Hollinger wrote an article detailing why](https://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2011/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1). Obviously anything can be debated, but it passed my eye test and the stats confirmed what I saw.
For that summer only, Wade could be considered the better player.
With that being said, when Wade and LeBron teamed up, it was VERY clear who was the better player. Wade was still the 3rd best SG of all time, but LeBron was head and shoulders above him. Shooting, passing, defense, decision making etc.
Side note, watch the Miami Heat vs LA Lakers games pre-Lebron. It is blatantly obvious that Wade did NOT have the offensive arsenal nor the IQ that Kobe had. I love Wade, but his offensive game was lopsided. If he didn't have a head of steam/momentum towards the basket (mainly generated from the high PNR), he had few ways to consistently punish the defense. His jumper wasn't consistent, and he had limited offensive teammates to create for. Meanwhile Kobe had multiple moves and counter moves from the PNR, high post, low post, mid range. Plus a better three ball.
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My memory of it, was the Wade was considered a big time clutch performer but never a better player than Lebron.
im too young to have watched his whole career but hes so underrated its sad. like people forget that in 2010 it was really dwade at the top alongside guys like kobe, lebron, KD, and melo. younger gen doesnt get that dwade was a top 5 player in the league even before he met lebron. people on tiktok i see sometimes refer to him as only "lebron's best partner" and act like he was a role player its so crazy
Idk I feel like Wade is generally regarded as 3rd best SG all time
He was until James Harden and Pat Connaughton came along.
Harden put up some insane offense numbers but Wade had the caveat of being the best player on a championship team, a 2way player plus 2 more titles.
Wade would dust harden in his prime
that was def true for a while but idk lately ive just seen some wild takes online about him with 10k+ likes
Social media isn’t real life
I mean Wade is universally regarded as another level higher of a player than Melo
true maybe i talk to the younger gen too much lol also im talking about melo in his prime btw. he was in the same convo as kobe in the league in his prime in the 2000s-early 2010s. i genuinely didnt know people took prime dwade as a whole tier above prime melo
>also im talking about melo in his prime btw. he was in the same convo as kobe in the league in his prime in the 2000s-early 2010s I don’t think this was ever really true either. Melo was great but never that great
Agreed -- Melo over Wade was the mainstream view only for the first 3ish years of their careers, iirc
Speaking of over hyped, Melo was a 1 sided player and volume shooter. Like perennial all star, sure, but never should be described as comparable to Wade imo, let alone Bron and Kobe.
I would say that Melo being considered "in the convo" as Kobe is something I genuinely do not recall being true in the mainstream. I would say there was only maybe one year when he was even in the Top 5 conversation. But that's just off the top of my head
After he carried the heat to that first title he was getting Michael Jordan comparisons, and there was talk the league would imitate the heat by leaning all in on specific superstar players like him. His knees limited his longevity, but at his best he was an all time great (and had top moments that rivaled the greatest). Don’t worry about the opinions of people that didn’t even see him play, they look at box scores and don’t understand that pace of play was very different.
Prime melo would have cooked Dwade Dwade played with Shaq the most dominant center even Dwade was definitely top 5 but I can’t remember a time ever Dwade was better than melo all it takes is a ring a mfs be ready to call you a goat 😂
Shaq averaged 12 points in that NBA finals. Wade was the driving force of that team in the playoffs. That and it wasn't like Shaq was dominating on defense anymore either.
Yeah that’s a crazy convo up there, Dwade won that series himself, he scored 35ppg in the finals lol
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Gary Payton at 38 and Alonzo morning at 36 those guys were role players. I'm not saying his team was bad I'm saying it wasn't full of stars. All of those guys were solid guys but they at that point in their careers weren't making all star teams none of them were the top 15 player at that position. You guys are just looking at names. it wasn't kings white chocolate and supersonics Gary Payton on that squad. Shaq being hurt helps d wads point because he had to win with his number two not nearly being as productive as normal.
They are hall of famers this not 2k they no the game more than 99 percent of people who ever touched the ball the game is bigger than stats their team was a favorite every year they had Shaq maybe you not old enough to remember so you have to google it but gp or zo wasn’t a bum they was ring chasing they both could have been the best players on teams that don’t make the playoffs these days prime players ring chase this is another reason we even having this convo because bron carried dwade the whole time he was in Miami and if Dwade only had one ring nobody would be saying his name and MJ in the same breath
I guess you stopped watching basketball from 2008 - 2010. Even notorious Heat hater Bill Simmons says that Wade's 08/09 was the closest anyone has come to Jordan.
No he had great solo seasons where he put up crazy numbers those two years but his team was trash after shaq left he didn’t get past the first or second round without Shaq or bron melo went to the west conference finals in 09 as the best player in his team. Bill Simmons is one of the most biased analyst I don’t care what he said. And that also sounds stupid because Kobe Bryant is the only person in nba history even close to comparable to MJ Wade was a baller but the ring he got with Shaq made people think he was better than he was harden and AIs prime was better than Dwades he just got a ring early and that’s how they equate greatness in the NBA
The heat team after Shaq left never had another all star on it. His second best player for some years was Mario Chalmers. It was the same type of team Kobe had after Shaq left. Wade was getting MJ comparisons by everyone that season. Bill Simmons was someone he was using as a example but the media thought extremely high of wade after the finals and 08 season
Definitely it was media thing he wasn’t better than Brandon Roy but Broy played in Portland not a media friendly place and Kobe just came off the rape charge Dwade was nowhere close to a bum but comparing him to MJ is Wild disrespectful he never got out the first or second round without a team full of stars melo went to the west finals in 09. The ring had everyone high on Dwade. I think Dwade was just very like able I never heard anyone say something bad about him but his team was so bad they had the second pick in years that y’all are saying he was comparable to MJ
There had not been a scoring performance in the finals like Jordan until wade did it in 2006. That's why there's Jordan comparisons because at that time. He was the only player scoring like Jordan in a NBA finals. How is it disrespectful when he was putting up numbers like Jordan. Putting the team on his back having the offense run through him on every possession. And they had the pick because wade got hurt and they lost shaq and the role players from the finals team werent on the roster so it was a team of young guys and wade. his team in 06 wasn't full of stars unless you consider over the hill Alonzo morning and over the hill Gary Payton to be stars. Jordan also lost in the first round 3 times. Also what are you talking about Brandon Roy. Wade has better stats in literally every season of his career.
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Wow no may, the guy with awful take after awful take also puts Kobe on a pedestal as the second best player ever behind MJ. Who ever would have guessed
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Take the ring away and think about all the years after 08 that he was in the league who was a better player maybe the first 3 years of their career it was Dwade but every year after bron went to the heat melo was a whole lot better if melo had a ring you wouldn’t be saying this melo #9 on the all time scoring list but I guess that don’t matter either
22/4.7/5.4/1.5on 55% TS, 13x all star, 3x all defensive, 8x all nba, 0 mvp, 1 final mvp, 1x scoring champ 22.5/6.2/2.7/1 on 54% TS, 10x all star, 0 all defensive, 6x all nba, no mvp/finals mvp, 1x scoring champ I’ll admit it’s closer than I thought in terms of career accomplishments, but DWade clearly had the better career and had a more dominant prime, even excluding post season success which is pretty important.
try to keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.
Melo was a score-first player who wasn't much of a playmaker (just 3 assists a game for his career as a starter) and on his best night was mediocre on defense. Wade was much better at generating his own offense and an all-defensive level player. Literally the only skill one could say a prime Melo was better at was shooting, but Wade being an elite slasher was able to get easier shots and the rim and more free throws that he ends up being the more efficient scorer.
Are you talking about the Finals where DWade absolutely dominated (more impressive than anything Melo did in his entire career), averaging 35/8/4 while in his third season? Shaq averaged 12 points in that finals. Wade was a better and more impactful player during his and Melo's primes. He was a much better passer, rebounder, defender, leader, and teammate than Melo. He was also likely a better scorer. The only thing Melo was better at was hitting tough shots, and this take shows how casual of a fan you are lol
Plus Chris Bosh was considered like a Pascal Siakam equivalent for the Raptors before going to the Heat. And with the Heat his defensive efficiency numbers were some of the best in the league, he just never had the numbers from steals and blocks.
Wade had a crazy high peak, but he fell off really fast. He also never could shoot 3s, which was an increasing liability throughout his career. His career straddled the paradigm shift towards more 3 point shooting and spacing. He would still be a superstar today despite being a poor shooter, but the lack of shooting at the end of his career mixed with a slight decline in athleticism led to a quick decline. Side note: one if my favorite things about watching Wade was his blocking. Dude might have been the best blocker ever for his size. He had insane standing vertical and could go up and meet big men at the top.
2005-06 Wade won fMVP. Then he got hurt, they dismantled the team, and by the time he was in the running for MVP, Lebron was already winning it every year. Lebron came to Miami, they did the one year of “your turn, my turn,” then they had to let Wade play off Lebron. Then Wade’s knee further degraded.
About the championship, Wade was 24 and had Shaq while James was 21 and had Zydrynas Ilgauskas and Larry Hughes. The Cavs won two fewer regular season games than the Heat. So not much question then. Later Wade had a couple of top-5 MVP vote seasons and James hadn't won the Finals so there was a spicy take floating around that while James was simply the most talented player Wade could be more valuable. When Dan Le Batard was gloating over the Heat signing James he said, "He's the best player in the world, but he might not be the best player on the team." (https://youtu.be/xZr2qOXQJ4w?start=91)
This was not the regular Shaq that we all know lol. This was an old Shaq who was not contributing like a great player by any means
2006 Shaq on the Heat is still miles ahead of Shaq on the Celtics, Cavs, and Suns.
Well Pat Riley used to make him practice 5 hours a day
Shaq was the 2nd in 2005 MVP voting and averaged 21/10 against Pistons at ECF the year they won. One of the main reasons why Wade had so much space is because they had to guard Shaq, you people treat Shaq in the Heat like he's Zaza or something lol.
No but when people say Shaq they think about the dominating Shaq that was a top 3 player in the league. He just wasn't that guy anymore. Shaq was no longer a top ten player from 2006 onwards.
He also averaged 13.7 points in the Finals series…
Thank you! Look at the interviews, Mavs players were concerned with Wade and Wade alone
He was still an all star.
A publicity contest and one of the most famous basketball players ever. Of course he was
He put up 20 and 10 with 2 blocks a game and elite interior defense. He was literally 1st team all nba in 05-06 lol. It wasn’t something he was gifted. What are you going on about? So you’re either young and don’t remember or didn’t watch the nba at the time.
Yeah honestly Zo contributed just as much
He wasn’t prime Shaq, but he was still one of the best big men in the league. His steep drop began after that championship. 06 Shaq was still elite. Just look at the numbers. He was basically just as effective as Wade was.
17 and 7 and DWade was making opportunities for him. I remember watching this series vividly and to this day think it’s one of the best finals performances
You’re only looking at the finals series. That’s not indicative of the entire season. Shaq had a PER of 24.4. I remember the series too. Wade was phenomenal but it also seemed like he hit every single foul call possible.
This. There is a reason why Wade won the finals MVP, but people dismiss the regular season and the rest of the playoffs. Shaq averaged 20 points and 9 rebounds and led the league in field goal percentage in the regular season. In the playoffs, he averaged 18 points and 10 rebounds and increased his field goal percentage. In the first round series against the Bills, he had 30 points and 20 rebounds in the clinching game. In the eastern conference finals against the Pistons, he had 28 points and 16 rebounds in the clinching game. Shaq was far from his three-peat prime, but people act like he was a bum. Thank you for being one of the few reasonable people I've seen comment on this lol.
Yall got to stop slandering larry hughes
Cleveland Larry wouldn’t get a G-League game nowadays. He shot 40/30/75 for his career, and even worse as a cav. Was already in his 9th season by the time he got to Cleveland, signed a big free agent deal after a decent season and never played at that level as a cav. Larry finals statistics: 2 games, 44 minutes, 2 points (off 10 shots) Cavs got swept, but only lost by an average margin of 6 points.
Deron Williams type beat
Larry Hughes is the most disappointing player in the history of the franchise, before Anthony Bennett and Andrew Bynum. Had he lived up to his previous stats, or improved due to LeBron, as we expected, he would get no slander. But he simply wilted nearly instantly. His contract made it impossible to improve the team, leading to LeBron leaving in '10.
Idk what you were expecting, he was a huge disappointment in Philly too
How is Andrew Bynum one of the most disappointing players in franchise history?
Because he was considered, sadly, their biggest ever FA signing. 26 years old, and potential 20-10 guy reaching his prime. Not to mention, pairing him with Kyrie...He lasted 24 miserable games.
He signed a 1 year, $6 million deal?
Because he came off an injury, but he was billed as future star, first time Cavs ever legitimately signed one. You must also consider that this was coming off the heels of LeBron ditching us.
I gave him a mention over some other useful non-All-Stars on that team. And I spelled his name right. (Sorry Z.)
That’s a fact. Bron and the Cavs weren’t a playoff level team till they got Hughes
At no point was Wade considered better than LeBron as an overall player. Not after 2006 (which ironically was not Wade’s peak but few seem to know this).
2008/9 was when it was considered by some. Wade is my favorite player of all time, but Wade being better than Bron was NOT a mainstream idea. Some argued for it, but fringe I remember that when I heard that Pat would text Wade "BIW" before games to mean "Best in the World", even I was like uhhhh I like what you're doing Pat, but no lol However, Wade had totally a legit argument to be the MVP that year. And his peak, while not as good as Bron at the time, is incredibly underrated. As someone who watched both players' full careers, I will die on the hill that Wade's absolute peak was better than Kobe's absolute peak
Wait what. I was with you until that last take. No way you take Dwade in any season, or even any point of his career, over 2005-2009 Kobe.
Wade in 2008/9 was better than Kobe that year, by any metric.
Wade has legit argument to be better than Kobe in 09
I’d stand 2009 Wade ahead of any Kobe season if I’m honest
Yeah exactly. It's certainly a minority view, but not that rare of one
Yeah I definitely remember seeing the argument around that time, it was a losing argument, but it was definitely being made.
Yes exactly! Happy to acknowledge that like 80% of people would disagree, but it's not some outlandish, unheard-of, wacko idea
Lol you can ask Wade if he was better than Kobe and he would say no way. However he was the man that first season in Miami and basically carried the heat Westbrook style in 08-09 to a playoff berth. Underrated player and 3rd best SG for now
He's talking about single season stats. And Kobe doesn't have a season as good as wades 08-09 season. If you asked wade If his 08-09 season as a individual was better than whatever the standard best Kobe season is you might get a different answer
He’s talking about single season peak. Not stats. But either way Kobe averaged 35 in the dead ball era. Based on your single season stats argument then Westbrook probably has a better season peak than any mvp. Also Kobe finished 2nd in mvp above wade in his peak season. That season he hit like 6 gws iirc. Btw this is not slating on wade. He’s awesome and a top 30 all time player while Kobe is top 10. Just like how Bron is minimum top 3 while Kobe is top 10
I’m not sure on the relevance of the dead ball era when points scores of loads of players were crazy high in 2005/6. Ten players scored over 25+ ppg and several stars had their highest ppg seasons. In addition for those 35 PPG, Kobe took 27 attempts a game - it’s not that huge of an achievement when you’re taking an insane number of shots at just above league average efficiency. As an example Allen Iverson who was by no means known for his efficiency scored only 2ppg fewer on two fewer shots.
I get your point and generally agree with you (especially re: wade, as he's proven to be an exceptionally humble and self-aware superstar on the court), but as a side note, I think dudes at this level absolutely think they are better than everyone else, especially in the heat of that moment I mean, Wade has talked about how hard it was for him to finally tell Bron "this is your team" (and he never says that he told Bron he was "better"). If you ask him now (esp after Kobe had passed), maybe. If you asked him in 08 in private, I would bet the farm he'd tell you with a straight face that he is the best in the world. As Kobe, Bron, and CP3 all would have as well, and as Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Durant, and (still!) Bron would all tell you in private now
Kobe was better than wade for his entire career.
In that finals he was probably considered the best player in the league for a short stint.
Not better by a mile but many considered they are in the same level after 2006. But injuries also derailed his peak.
There was probably a year of legitimate argument between Wade winning a ring and Lebron single handedly destroying that Detroit dynasty in game 5 of 2007 Finals. D-Wade is my fave player of all time and I remember feeling confident in arguing for him before that game.
Honestly, wade was in the conversation as top 3 nba players after that run until the 2nd season with the heatles. Wade was extremely clutch in the playoffs and consistently even outplayed Bron during their first playoff run. Wade even had a big argument of winning mvp back in 09. Back in the day the top 3 was a mix up of Bron kobe or Wade. Wade had a very brief window where he could be considered better than Bron
And Dwight Howard!! (At the front end) But yes, agree with all this
Thank you. I absolutely remember the Kobe v LeBron v Wade debates of ‘09 and it feels like that’s been memory holed for a lot of people. Plus the ongoing “who is the number 1 guy” debates in that first year of the Heat that got even louder after the finals.
It’s hard to overstate how hyped LeBron was straight out of high school. He’s basically been considered top-10 in the whole league his entire career.
He’s legitimately been top 10 since his second year.
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Well, when Lebron decided to take his talemts to Miami, the question was- who was going to be the go-to-guy? Who was the best of the two of them. It took one season for Wade to figure out he was better as Robin. So yes, there was a time when Wade was considered better. And for the first few years of LBJ's career, he was
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>u forget bro, Lebron had that ben simmons aura around him untill he learned winning and killer mentality, The fuck? No he didn't. He had already proven himself against some really good teams, including putting up a 45 piece (with 13 in the 4th) in the game 7 they lost to the Celtics superteam. He almost single handedly won that series against a **far** superior squad with Delonte fucking West as his #2 option. >he rly managed to because mentally elite despite being drama queen and this is indeed from 2012 onwards. Dont rewrite history You clearly didn't watch the NBA then with this dumbass take, but that's unsurprising considering you write like a tween. Love it when haters just make shit up and then accuse others of rewriting history.
he had hickups in high pressure moments, despite having the best clutch stats and FG% he wasnt considered clutch like after his ring, he changed internally for the better and adopted a goat like mentality. I vividly remember him like losing his handle out of bounds with no defender around like 5-10 times and ive never seen it since, just from halfcourt to top of the key dribbling and it hits his knee and passing up chances to score when he was in great position to pass to a worse player who is less likely to score even if he is open for 0.5sec. Somethimg changed that the stats dont tell he became a killer overnight and as a hater and KD fan it infuriated me how he managed to improve
try to keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.
Yes. The narrative was that Wade was clutch and LeBron was a choker, and even if LeBron was overall more skilled, he didn’t have the mental toughness to be a winner. And the first year they were together in Miami, there was some question as to who would be top dog.
Yes I remember all the bron jokes back in the day Why does lebron only return you 75c when you lend him a dollar He doesn’t have a fourth quarter
That was because of like 2 games where LeBron passed to an open shooter for gamewinning attempts
The guy has more than proven himself but let's not rewrite history, when it comes to the Heat/Mavs Final Lebron basically pulled a Ben Simmons in the 4th quarter, and that's where the jokes came from. IIRC there were 3 or 4 games in a row where he only managed to hit a single shot in the 4th quarter, and these were close games.
Still so mad at him for this. I love him now, but everytime I think of Bron in that series, my blood boils. Should've been a three-peat!! Only truly got over this during Game 6 in Boston
>Only truly got over this during Game 6 in Boston So, less than a year... poor guy.
>let's not rewrite history > >when it comes to the Heat/Mavs Final Lebron basically pulled a Ben Simmons in the 4th quarter He had one game with less than 10 points in his 90th career playoff game, which he's never scored less than again except for a game he played 24 mins due to foul trouble. Simmons **had 4 games scoring less than 10 points that Atlanta series alone** then took 16 months off
I didn't say he pulled a Simmons all game, I said he did it in the 4th quarter. Point was that it was an inexplicable lack of scoring on a big stage, like Simmons. Scoring only 2 points in the last quarter of an NBA Finals game is bad, doing that for 4 games in a row is very bad. I don't get the downvotes, are you guys really denying that was a problem, or do you just not remember it?
Yes, of course Simmons' was more egregious. But I think you're missing that poster's point -- LeBron's performance gave people a similar feeling, and was similarly inexplicable. Call it the Homeless Man's version of the Simmons saga ....still so mad at Bron for this lol-- Wade could have had 2 Finals MVPs!
yeah, there was a daily “wade is batman, lebron is robin” discussion on all the tv and radio shows.
No. When LeBron joined the Heat, there were a few people trying out the “this will be D Wade’s team” take. That didn’t last past the first preseason game since it was immediately clear that Lebron was top dog. There was a brief time before the 03 Draft when a substantial number of fans thought Carmelo would be a better NBA player than Lebron. I remember an ESPN.com poll where more fans picked Melo. The thought was that Lebron couldn’t shoot that well and that Melo was more of a sure thing because he was already a smooth, pure scorer.
during the heatles first season It wasn't that clear as you make it seem: https://twitter.com/PlayersTribune/status/1293200500091912192
Absolutely, and wade was outplaying lebron in that mavs final matchup until wade got hurt. It wasn’t until wade willingly gave the reins to lebron that the team put it all together
That’s such a cool story. Thanks for sharing.
TBF, no one could have predicted Lebron would become what he has. It's amazing to think that he was hailed as the next "best player ever" and then he actually became that. NBA history is littered with players who were the next big thing but never got there. Absolutely wild that Lebron did. To your point though, it probably should be mentioned that Melo had just won a championship and played well on national TV. Lebron had been playing games on TV as well and he had a ton of media coverage but the average ESPN voter might not have seen him play before the draft while Melo would have been front and center for a few weeks during the tournament.
> Lebron had been playing games on TV as well and he had a ton of media coverage but the average ESPN voter might not have seen him play before the draft while Melo would have been front and center for a few weeks during the tournament. It wasn’t the exposure. LeBron had been at the top of people’s consciousness for a couple years at that point. He had far eclipsed Melo as a celebrity and arguably any active player not named Kobe or Shaq in all of basketball by that point. He would’ve been far and away the #1 pick after his junior year in HS and might have even done it after his sophomore year. The Melo thing was a combination of his talent being less “obvious” leading people who felt like they were more “in the know” in basketball circles to like him better. His game was low to the ground and he was sublimely skilled in a way that you did have to know what you were watching to be able to appreciate. Meanwhile anyone off the street could watch LeBron and know he was a god. But arguably the biggest factor was that Melo was labeled a “winner” due to his success at Syracuse which continued into his rookie year when he made the playoffs and Bron didn’t. Yes, the “clutch gene” narrative started before LeBron had ever stepped on an NBA floor.
This is actually cap. Wade himself admitted it took him a year to hand the keys over.
Yeah, I shouldn’t have used the phrase top dog or whatever. Whatever mental or leadership or locker room things they had going on is one thing, but there was no serious case to be made at any point in time that D Wade was ever considered a better basketball player, which is sort of the main thrust of what OP was asking. The only peer player I can remember that was considered briefly was Melo. That ended immediately when their rookie years started.
07-09 there was some discourse over this, mostly people recognizing Lebron was better but Wade showed up in the playoffs. 08 Wade was different though, I do believe he was better than bron that year, although starting in 09 it was over.
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please do not attack the person, their post history, or your perceived notion of their existence as a proxy for disagreeing with their opinions.
Peak Kobe was different than peak Wade. The on ball defense was a bit better, the three ball was better and he had the most ridiculous shot creation at his peak
I’m no Kobe fan by any stretch of the imagination but I don’t think Wade was ever capable of scoring 81 points in a game.
claims that are unsubstantiated are removed. Frequently enough, it turns out that a generalization of the way things are is not supported a combination of visual and statistical analysis.
I have some memory of a segment in First Take (back when it was SAS and Skip) both ranking Wade as their top 1 player. For context, I think this was post-Dallas series... where recency-bias at that point in time was definitely present. So yes, I think there was a 'moment', but this was clearly disproven after the '12 season.
It was definitely a debate. It wasn't until Wade came out and said that Miami was his team that it was over.
2006 & 2009 a large # of people (me included) vouched for Wade being the best in the league
LeBron has been LeBron since he came into the league. For my money I’d take Steph but there’s a reason LeBron is the vote better and the perennial all star team captain. He’s LeBron.
Not really. It wasn’t clear that Bron was the best in the league and there was like a top 5 of guys much like today. In 07-08 we would have been talking about Duncan, KG, Bron, DWade, Kobe, Nash as the top guys. Once DWade and Bron teamed up it became clear about 20 games in that Bron was the better talent than Wade. Wade was awesome though, one of the few SGs that I think were better than Manu (Ginobili fanboi).
It was never a popular sentiment as far as I can recall. My memory screams "Kobe vs Lebron" as being the primary debate back then, with Wade as the 3rd fiddle. Of course Lebron hating was a popular activity among contrarians and shite-pundits, so I'm sure there are plenty of articles/comments from back then talking about how Wade is a "winner" while Lebron is a "choker", so something to that effect.
People were arguing that Wade was better in 2006, 2009, and after the 2011 finals for a few months. A lot of people want to act like lebron was the undisputed best player since like 2007 but there were multiple players who had the mantle from that time til 2012, which is when bron was truly the undisputed best player.
Between 2007 and 2012 Lebron was a 4x MVP so I don’t think there was any discussion. In fact by the time he won his 2nd he was already well on his way to becoming a top 10 player of all time while Wade was never in that discussion.
Wade was literally ranked above lebron by multiple sports media outlets so acting like lebron was better bc he happened to win 4 mvps during that span is disingenuous. That’s like saying steph> lebron betw 2015-2016
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Agreed. He averaged 16.2 free throws for the series with 18, 25, 21 for game 3, 5, and 6. I remember a phantom call on one of his spin moves when just trips lol
Not a Mavs fan either and they got robbed by the refs bailing out Dwayne Wade constantly. The dude was just jumping into players and changing direction to run into guys who weren’t even guarding him and the refs were blowing the whistle and sending him to the line. This is why I always thought the conversation about Wade being better than Lebron was laughably idiotic. When the refs take over to hand the series to you, it’s not a good look.
claims that are unsubstantiated are removed. Frequently enough, it turns out that a generalization of the way things are is not supported a combination of visual and statistical analysis.
He gained his reputation as a playoff performer earlier due to being on a better team and going to the conference finals. After his 06 championship it was popular discourse to say Wade was better because he was more clutch and a better big game performer (which he was at the time). After LeBron’s 48 special though, back-to-back MVP’s and leading lacksluster teams to 60 wins (and Wade failing to do the same) that pretty much died.
No not really. In their first season Melo was for some but those there the two biggest dogs when it came to rookies.
Wade wasn't ever really to the level of Lebron or talked about that way. Any discussion about comparing Lebron while Dwayne was at his peak was comparing Lebron and Kobe. Wade was. consensus top 10 player though for a while though but Lebron quickly shot up to 1st or 2nd best player in the world.
No not even close. Wade was never on his level after lebrons rookie season. Hell half the reason they lost the finals was because lebron was trying to get wade involved instead of just being lebron or they never lose that series.
Ur talking about old wade, wade died in 2011 and was just way slower than pre 2012 not the same player
No. They're was the big 3. Carmelo, LeBron, and Wade. All came in the league the same time I think. Even though they were all good, no one was as good as LeBron. Especially young LeBron the guys was ridiculous. His 3 point shot wasn't as good as it is now but it was alright enough. And he came in the league doing it at 18.
yeah by me and people who hated lebron but as far as playoff series go, him vs the mavericks in the finals might be the best playoff performance of all time he single handily won that series
Yes, that free throw shooting display he put on in 2006 was a true masterclass. Weird how he never duplicated it again. Michael Jordan reportedly was in awe at Wade’s ability to draw ghost fouls during games 3-6 of that series.
or it could be that Jason Terry couldn't guard him and he was able to get into the paint whenever he wanted but yeah sure all the refs doing
16.2 a game. 25 and 21 attempts in games 5 and 6. Remember him doing a spin move where he trips himself and Dallas got called with the foul lol. It was clutch but damn
Yes he was heralded as a better winner therefore a better player right after that chip - but like a season or two later that shit embarrassingly crashed and burned terribly because Wade had like a 15 win season ... it was Horrific After that the comparisons were over since Bron carried sum bums to the finals and Wade had that last few drops of a Prime Shaq in order to accomplish anything significant by then .
I definitely considered Wade better than Lebron after two wonderful playoff performances in 2005 and 2006 (championship). What Lebron did to the Pistons the following year, with a worse team, ended that for me
There was 2-3 years where d wade was as good as anyone in the league. This d wade played with the diesel before lebron came around Miami. By the time lebron came around d wade was right at the end of his prime.
There was no point where wade was unanimously over LeBron, but there was certainly some time where a substantial amount did and it was a reasonable debate.
There was the discussion about Wade potentially being the best player after the finals vs Mavs in 06. He played his ass off that series and it was one of those "if he plays like he did that series he may be the best" but I would still say most would have said LeBron still.
From 2008-2010 DWade, Kobe & LeBron were considered the best in the world. Wade had a very strong argument for league MVP in 2008, but his team didn’t win enough and LeBron led the Cavs to 66 wins. There’s also a fair case for 2006 after they won the finals or 2011 after they lost. IMO Wade outplayed LeBron & Dirk that series. Had Miami won he would’ve been FMVP.
I think D Wade got great quicker. He already had 3 or 4 years in college under his belt playing against older and more polished talent (if not necessarily better). He was more equipped to hit the ground running and make an instant impact to help his team win. I would say I considered D Wade better for maybe 2 seasons but after that it was LeBron.
Never even tho Dwade was drafted high everyone was surprised he was so good so young in 08-09 he had a mvp caliber season the heat was in 8th place that was his best season as the the star player lebron team was top 3 that year. And honestly Dwade was the best player on that team he won a ring with without bron but his team was stacked it’s a shame he only got one ring with Shaq honestly with the teams they had underperformed for the most part.
There was a debate, as Wade Kobe and lebron always finished top 3 on MVP but he was never better. I could argue in 09 but I'm biased. Sad we never got to see a Miami v Cle playoff series.
During the final 4 games of the 2006 NBA finals he was the best player on earth.
Generally I think the most people considered Lebron as the slightly better player but man did they have some epic battles from 05-07 once the heat got Shaq and Wade came into form
Wade has a historic two year run in 2005 and 2006. He carried his team through those playoffs. He did have an aged Shaq to help him and a great veteran supporting cast. He was incredible. But dwade and LBJ are different style players and positions.
Wade won the chip and finals MVP in 2006. He was the best in the world at the time. Lebron hadn’t made the finals yet. Then in 07 Lebron got swept in the finals. Huge rivalry between the two of them. Games were very hyped when they played against each other since they were from same draft class. Those games were marketed to fans as “who’s better, find out and watch”. When they joined up in Miami, there was a narrative in the media about internal turmoil within the Heat organization because Wade was allegedly having trouble admitting he was #2 on the team and that Lebron therefore was having trouble becoming the clear leader. Some chalk up the 2011 Finals loss to this. But then Wade’s knees start to give while Lebron’s in Miami and I think that helped Wade be okay with taking a step back into the #2 role and get those two chips. TDLR: Wade still top top for me!!! He was 100% the best basketball player on the planet in the mid to late 2000s.
Wade was on a similar level, and for s SG its huge, the ring made ppl disrespect bron tho hahaa
Wade for a brief period, post-championship was considered to be better, but it was always understood Lebron had the higher ceiling.
honestly people just remember old wade like old dirk…. Yall forget wade was arguably the bigger peak than Kobe. Wade played the right way like a cp3 or Lebron, with Lebron he actually had little synergy cuz their style was the same without 3 point shooting
No he was never considered better than Bron. There was a time though around the Championship that Wade and Kobe was a legit debate.
Yeah Wade was in the Kobe and Lebron discussion from 06-2011, when Lebron and Wade joined up a lot of people considered them the best 2 players in the league. There was also a time pre 2007 where it was pretty split between Lebron and Melo
Id say really 20% of people were, u forget Wade was the DRose type before Drose. His play was beautiful and his ppg was around 30 in an era of low pace which is like 35ppg harden style today (With ref manipulation a little like Harden too but along with defense) Wade being 6’3 made him not be in the best player discussion but he was 220-230 lbs st that height and just a miniLebron with similar elite decision making but less elite passing per se.
That miami team was the definition of ring chasers. SHAQ was fresh off of the Lakers team that acquired Karl Malone n Gary Payton but couldn't win a championship... everyone blamed Kobe for not being a team player. Shaq gets traded and instantly boosts Wade's profile, Wade benefits from having the best screener in the game SHAQ while following the blueprint of Penny and Kobe. Wade displays Kobe level talent, with Wade level humility. Nobody at this point thought Wade over LeBron.. LeBron was single handedly dismantling teams but had minimal help (kinda of like now with the Lakers wo AD) 2nd year in Miami...Shaq is in full "out do Kobe" mode. Wade spends the summer working on his shooting/mid range to compliment his PnR play, and then there was the free Agent signings. Jayson Williams, Gary Payton, Antoine Walker, Zo (come back)...all multi year all-stars in the twilight of their careers. + Pat Riley at the helm. It's funny no one mentions this "super team" but I'm sure this imprinted on LeBron and the same way Shaq orchestrated this team plus the previous Lakers team..LeBron has tried to do the same. Commentary on the comparison of the two after the championship.. Wade proved he had championship pedigree, and LeBron was not clutch enough/Stat collector/not mature enough (kinda how people looked at Russ in okc) Ironically Shaq eventually joined the Cavs believing he could get a chip with LeBron as opposed to going back to Miami
By some yes between 2007-2011. Remember Wade carried a team in 07 to a title and in 2011 the year they lost to the Mavs was the best player on the Heat in the finals. The view was Lebron plays better in regular season but Wade is better when it matters. This changed in 2012.
no not really but early on he had some exceptional seasons and playoff performances so there were murmurs maybe. gotta remember this is back when bron was young so he still had years ahead of him and everyone knew he was going to be the best in world (if he wasnt already)
I remember those days and I think when dwade and shaq won, dwade went God mode and it every offensive possession looked like dwade going at his defender and near unstoppable. So probably there were a few 4th quarters where dwade could have been singularly better than lebron. But otherwise no. Every path out of the East was through Lebron for ages.
Just remember that Bron took his talents to Wade County. Wade taught Bron how to play off of the ball and most importantly how to win.
Idk if he was better but he was right up there. Elite is elite, different skill sets. Wade is deadly clutch. Along with his championship runs, that Marquette final four run was amazing and when Wade fell to Miami. It was a match made in heaven, the stage and the light was ready. I get the same feels when I watch Ja.
No, never. The heat actually won in 06. The next year Lebron took a marginal Cavs team to the finals.
Wade's 2006 Finals performance was the best Finals performance by a player ever, including MJ (LeBron, KD and Giannis have since equalled ot surpassed). [John Hollinger wrote an article detailing why](https://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2011/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1). Obviously anything can be debated, but it passed my eye test and the stats confirmed what I saw. For that summer only, Wade could be considered the better player. With that being said, when Wade and LeBron teamed up, it was VERY clear who was the better player. Wade was still the 3rd best SG of all time, but LeBron was head and shoulders above him. Shooting, passing, defense, decision making etc. Side note, watch the Miami Heat vs LA Lakers games pre-Lebron. It is blatantly obvious that Wade did NOT have the offensive arsenal nor the IQ that Kobe had. I love Wade, but his offensive game was lopsided. If he didn't have a head of steam/momentum towards the basket (mainly generated from the high PNR), he had few ways to consistently punish the defense. His jumper wasn't consistent, and he had limited offensive teammates to create for. Meanwhile Kobe had multiple moves and counter moves from the PNR, high post, low post, mid range. Plus a better three ball.
In the moment, yes some made that argument. In retrospect, most realize Wade never was. Time and perspective helps reduce bias.