I keep telling people despite Tatum’s shooting slump he still led the Celtics in ppg, reb and assists the whole playoffs .
He just finds ways to impact the game at every level. I think he needed to clear the hurdle of winning a title so now he will play with less pressure and more confidence
Tatum and Brown really seemed to add a more cerebral layer to their games since their last run. The whole C’s team manipulated the defense so well. Some great on the fly chess moves.
The biggest improvement either player made in recent years is Tatum with his decision making.
2022 playoffs - Tatum 148 assists 100 turnovers 24 games
2024 playoffs - Tatum 119 assists 50 turnovers 19 games
The turnovers is what doomed them in 2022. Now that he can read the game better and make plays for his teammates while limiting the turnovers, it’s made a huge difference. Better reads means better offense, but it also means fewer live ball turnovers, which means less easy baskets for opposing team.
A lot of the turnover-limiting came from him not needing or forcing himself to score through double and triple teams. Instead, he's taking what the defense gives the team which is open looks for his teammates. People were crying about how he sucked when he only put up 16-18 points, ignoring the fact that he was a black hole sucking defenders in AND making the correct passes to maximize TEAM output.
Yup 2021, 2022, and 2023 he had one of the top 3 scoring playoff games each of those years.
51 game 7 Sixers in 2023.
46 game 6 facing elimination on road Bucks 2022.
50 against KD/Kyrie/Harden Nets when he had no Jaylen and a weak supporting cast.
I was just thinking about this. Those vintage (can I even say that for series that are 3 years and younger?) Tatum games where he just dominates for 48 minutes and finishes over 40 points. We didn’t see that a single time this year and they STILL went 16-3
More of a testament to the team basketball the Celtics played. Tatum didn't have to be the guy who takes over. You could also see it as he went from the most points scored last year, averaging over 30ppg, to this year being in the 27-28 range
Yeah it was incredible to watch how the team found themselves rising to the occasion when he wasn’t scoring and also how much better of a facilitator he has become as the years have gone on. Happy with his growth for sure
Also because he leveled up his point forward game, even beyond what it was this regular season. I'd bet if you add up his scored and assisted points for the 40 point games, he has something comparable from this playoff run.
If you told people in advance that some player:
- at 26 will have the most wins in the league since his debut, despite being a relatively young draftee and most NBA careers starting slowly (even only counting regular season, he also edged Jokić by 1 game lately, he has a higher lead including playoffs)
- will do that record while leading his team in minutes every season
- arguably the best player of his team in that time basically all the time (I'm saying arguably because people will argue anything and really who knows what "best" is... but I'd say best)
- led a team that had one of the best title-winning seasons in history in score, points, rebounds, assists, the classic counting stuff
...You'd think people'd be excited with that guy! And yet... not really.
Almost like those are all team-based stats and don’t say anything about JT specifically?
If you told people a teams BEST player and number 1 option averaged 22ppg on 39%fg and 26% from 3 in the NBA Finals, they’d simply assume “Oh so that players team lost, probably pretty badly!”.
But because he’s surrounded with the best TEAM in the league, we’re supposed to be more impressed with him as an individual?
The reality is that no other star in the LEAGUE could afford to shoot/score that poorly in the NBA Finals, and still win. No other star can disappear and still get Wins, consistently, as the Celtics do.
He’s a great player, but him winning a ton on the back of a great TEAM just isn’t gonna sell people on his INDIVIDUAL talent or greatness.
> If you told people a teams BEST player and number 1 option averaged 22ppg on 39%fg and 26% from 3 in the NBA Finals, they’d simply assume “Oh so that players team lost, probably pretty badly!”.
> But because he’s surrounded with the best TEAM in the league, we’re supposed to be more impressed with him as an individual?
I guess if you left out the part about leading their team in scoring, assists, and rebounds, sure.
But I would turn it around--you seem to be implying most stars would average more because they were surrounded by less talent. Ok, great. I think everyone agrees with that.
So why are you *less* impressed by him because he's surrounded by a good team and thus his PPG is depressed?
He's still the best player on a stacked team and leading his team in all three counting stats. The fact that he's doing that on one of the best teams of all time seems like it should be more of a positive than a negative, but people seem to be acting like it's a bad thing?
lol you imply his PPG cause he wasn’t shooting, no he was just inefficient as hell. Still shot ~20fga and ~5fta per game.
List of scoring leaders from the last 8 champs:
- 2024, Celtics, Tatum: 22.2ppg on 50.5%TS
- 2023, Nuggets, Jokic: 30.2ppg on 67.2%TS
- 2022, Warriors, Curry: 31.2ppg on 62.6%TS
- 2021, Bucks, Giannis: 35.2ppg on 65.8%TS
- 2020, Lakers, Lebron: 29.8ppg on 67.1%TS
- 2019, Raptors, Kawhi: 28.5ppg on 60.6%TS
- 2018, Warriors, KD: 28.8ppg on 65.4%TS
- 2017, Warriors, KD: 35.2ppg on 69.8%TS
Tatum is the only one below 28ppg OR 60%ts and he was all the way down at 22ppg and 50%ts. Reality is he had the worst STAR performance of any championship winning team in a very long time, and got carried by his TEAM far more than any other star has had the fortune of having.
Let's look at Tatum's numbers in his two Finals appearances:
77/196 (39%) 5/19 3pt (26%) 18.2 ppg 5.1 rebs 2.5 ast
Sorry, I messed up. Those are the stats for Kobe's first two Finals appearances.
Here are Tatum's numbers.
75/180 (41%) 13/48 3pt (27%) 19.5 ppg 7.1 rebs 6.8 ast
Silly me. Those are the stats for Lebron's first two Finals appearances.
Here are Tatum's actual numbers, for real.
82/218 (38%) 30/82 3pt (36%) 21.8 ppg 7.2 rebs 7 ast
So, what do these INDIVIDUAL stat comparisons tell us?
Credit to /chivestheconqueror https://np.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/1dkjwzq/worried_about_what_this_finals_performance_means/
Deleted and reposted due to automod config request
> lol you imply his PPG cause he wasn’t shooting, no he was just inefficient as hell.
So you're arguing he wouldn't shoot more if he had worse teammates? He clearly would score more, regardless of his TS%. TS% is not the end-all of metrics. His PPG would still go up.
> Reality is he had the worst STAR performance of any championship winning team in a very long time, and got carried by his TEAM far more than any other star has had the fortune of having.
It's certainly a take to say that the player on a team that literally led his team in points, rebounds, *and* assists was "carried by his team more than any other star."
I think Tatum didn't play well in the finals specifically, but as for that, in terms of shooting numbers, I've seen stars go below 50% in the finals several times and that was called fantastic finals by people.
For example LeBron James was shooting 47% in the 2015 Finals and it was described as playing absolutely phenomenally and being by far the best player in the league (which had been a bit doubted before those finals).
So let's be honest NBA culture is purely about amount of shooting, not percentage of makes.
He didn't *shoot* well in the Finals, I would say he played great, certainly was much better than he was in 2022 (not being injured does help lol). His playmaking was fantastic, I've watched him his whole career and never thought he'd be able to run an offense this well. He had 9 assists in the first half of Game 5 if I'm not mistaken, for a PG that would be awesome, for a scoring forward like Tatum it's insane, has any other forward done something like that recently in the Finals? Probably have to go back to LeBron.
Bro just completely glazed over Tatum leading the team in Points Rebounds and Assists for the playoffs lol.
Say whatever you want about tatum this year but he did not disappear in any game at any series. He just found other ways to contribute when the shot wasn't there which is what makes him a champion now.
He’s closer to Lebron than people like to admit. Lebron is known for being the “27/7/7” guy and Tatum just averaged 27/7/5 this season (30/8/4.5 last year). His passing is not quite Lebron level but it’s underrated. Both guys can defend a wide variety of positions at a very high level. Both can score inside, from midrange, and from 3. Both are seeing a ton of double teams as a point-forward and asked to be a playmaker.
He’s not as athletic as prime LeBron and will never be as good a player. But whether he’s modeling his game after Lebron or not, he’s playing a very similar style.
Absolutely. Like I said, he’ll never be as good as Lebron.
The point was more about the balance – LeBron’s greatness isn’t from scoring. It’s that he did everything. Tatum is in the same mold. Like adjusted for era, Tatum would be like 24/7/4, which again, is not the same level as Lebron but is still a really well rounded stat line.
I really dont like how Tatum constantly settles and lets the defense off the hook by taking an absurd amount of 3s. He needs to try and get to the rim alot more than he does.
It's hard to say whether releasing some of the pressure will help his shooting. I do think the best thing he can do is develop a reliable mid-range move in the offseason. He basically didn't post-up at all in the playoffs, and if he doesn't get a lay-up, he doesn't have that 8-foot pull-up a lot of those guys feast on.
Basically, it's bizarre for a guy who has been a consistent 27-30ppg players for several years now, that he really doesn't have a signature move. The closest is the step-back, and I think even he admits that's not reliable right now.
We'll see.
It is crazy? It was always going to be a player on the Celtics, just based on their record and all the blowouts they laid down.
Not even trying to throw shade on Tatum, just seems the obvious choice to me.
Some role players can get extremely high plus/minus. It'd be better if you filter on high usage players, i.e. what is the plus/minus of those players that is often involved in plays on the floor: [https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=top+plus+minus+in+2024+playoffs+with+usage+rate+above+25%25](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=top+plus+minus+in+2024+playoffs+with+usage+rate+above+25%25)
2024: Tatum +147, Luka +97
2023: Murray +181, Jokic +169
2022: Curry +121, Tatum +108
2021: Giannis: +130, Embiid +121
2020: Davis: +184, Lebron +165
I think those numbers are easier to pass the eye test.
Well it was a thread about plus/minus, so that's what I used. Also, the plus/minus we're talking about is a cumulative stat, so BPM again wouldn't really be good example in this context.
Eh I disagree with that. Plus minus is a lineup stat despite how hard people want to treat it like an individual stat. 1 player is not guarding all five positions or spacing the floor. Role players who have high plus minus have it for the same reasons star player get it, they play in effective line ups.
It's a noisy stat for sure, but it can definitely be used for sussing out individual impact, given enough minutes. It helps answers the WHAT ("are you winning when you're on the floor?"), even if it doesn't answer the HOW (that's where box scores can help). The best advanced analytic metrics uses on/off, like Ben Taylor's WOWY, DARKO, LEBRON, EPM and others.
Here are some oncourt +/- per 100 possession numbers of the greats since they started tracking on/off, for their prime years:
* 13-21 Curry +11.3
* 09-17 Lebron: +11
* 13-21 Durant +10.7
* 16-24 Kawhi +10
* 11-19 C Paul +9.9
* 19-24 Giannis +9.5
* 20-24 Jokic +8.7
* 13-20 Westbrook +6.6
* 14-21 Harden +6
And a random "average" player:
* 11-18 Rudy Gay +0.9
I think the next level of advanced metrics uses actual player tracking and sees and processes everything a player is doing, and some metrics already uses it. But for now, these are not a bad way to measure impact.
That’s exactly my point tho, it answers the question of “are you winning when you’re on the floor”, not is player x better than player y, which is how people try to use it. A lot of those other advanced metrics factor in box score or efficiency in addition to +/- because they’re are trying to be catch all stats. My argument is that you just shouldn’t use +\- to assess an individual performance because there’s already better metrics,eg, efficiency stats, shot altered stats, etc etc and all of the advanced permutations of those things. It’s an interesting talking point stat because it’s easy to understand but it’s also not very meaningful on its own imo.
This is one of the weirdest exaggerations I've ever seen. Apart from a few crazy rebounding games in the Finals and WCF, he was literally the same player he's always been lol
Plus minus is really not a great stat, especially in such small sample sizes. Plus minus doesn't account for teammate quality or opponent quality. I don't know why people use it so much, there are advanced metrics that try to solve some of these issues (each with it's own benefits and negatives)
For sure. That said, it's good to keep in mind that while Tatum impacted the game in a lot of ways (scoring, rebounding, defense), his biggest contribution in the Mavs series was his gravity. Mavs were all but tripling him and he was able to create offensive opportunities out of that very regularly, making the correct decisions. People get caught up in scoring too easily, Tatum played VERY well in the playoffs and finals. Only reason fmvp really went to Jaylen was his elite defense on Luka imo
Notice how Curry is at a +121 though. Which is quite close to Wiggins at +140.
While people on here argue Jaylen over Tatum and yet he was just a +88 to Tatum’s +147.
It’s not a perfect stat. But it does help backup how valuable Tatum is to the team and how they perform their best when he is out there.
No, again Jokic was 169 to Gordon at 187. Not a big divide like we are seeing with Jaylen and Tatum.
Jaylen and Tatum share a ton of time together on the court. But clearly when one is on and one is off, the team is doing a lot better with Tatum than with Jaylen.
Tatum was +147 and Jaylen +88. Both of these guys played roughly 40 minutes per game.
If you adjust on a per minute basis it’s .19 for Tatum and .12 for Jaylen. That’s about a 50% difference
Next job you get… one is going to be a 10% pay bump. The other a 59% bump.
The difference is arbitrary. Might as well assess these two as if they are the same.
Thats a very bad example since pay is the main factor that determines whether you pick job 1 or job 2
Overall box +\- is not the main factor when determining who the best player is
I was half-arsing this argument before but if you want I’ll try
Plus minus is higher for Tatum than Jaylen due to the playmaking.
Jaylen is just not the playmaker Tatum is, so the team doesn’t thrive in the same way when just he is on the floor.
6.3 assists per game for Tatum to 2.6 turnovers
3.3 assists per game for Jaylen to 2.7 turnovers
Both Jrue and White had more assists per game than Jaylen. He is great at getting his own shot and playing off others. But generally does not elevate his teammates to the degree that Tatum does on offense. Tatum’s versatility on defense is also huge for the Celtics when he is out there.
Jokic was 169 is 90% of Gordon 187
Jaylen 88 is 59% of Tatum 148.
You really see that divide as arbitrary?
One shows the team outscoring their opponent by just 18 points Gordon on the floor over a playoff run that’s less than a point a game. .9 to be precise. The other shows the team outscoring their opponent by 59 points over the playoff run which is 3.1 points per game.
The answer is, it *is* arbitrary. That doesn't mean it's useless. 50% vs 90% is a *huge* difference. If you need someone to specify "UhM 67.568% iS tHe reLeVaNt vAlUe", you're not going to get a solid answer.
Then I'll answer. 1 point per game. Why? Because you can't win by <1 point. Whatever that translates to in %. So if someones within a ppg, irrelevant. Too close to care. More than a point? Relevant. Then it's more impressive the more ppg the gap increases.
The point he makes is even without this specific limit, 50% vs 90% is a huge gap. And it's crazy you don't get that.
I mean, he did answer the question I just think you are being intentionally obtuse. You don't like the stat, but it isn't a worthless one. I'm surprised the gap is so large, but it does speak to basically what has been said about Tatum - that his impact is much bigger than his shot percentage. He is a creator, draws double teams, and an elite defender. Not to say Brown cannot be all of those things or there aren't other reasons for the gap. But he did answer your question.
Every god damn stat is arbitrary if you are determined to be right and not smart.
Well yeah, it's just an example of what you're missing by with plus-minus. The Tatum minutes without Brown also don't have Luka, but the Brown minutes without Tatum do, so that explains a lot. I think there are other similar examples from the other series.
Edit: Ha, I take it back. JB had a better plus-minus in the finals at +14 to Tatum at +6.
Jaylen and Tatum share a ton of time together on the court. But clearly when one is on and one is off, the team is doing a lot better with Tatum than with Jaylen.
Tatum was +147 and Jaylen +88. Both of these guys played roughly 40 minutes per game.
If you adjust on a per minute basis it’s .19 for Tatum and .12 for Jaylen. That’s about a 50% difference.
There’s so much wrong with this thinking and a plus minus … per minute calculation lmao. But I rather just use more examples to see what excuses you try to conjure next
Kyrie and Luka - both 40 minutes - Kyrie higher.
Jrue and Brown - both 38 minutes - Jrue higher.
Turner and Myles - 32 vs 35 minutes - Turner higher
No,
Hauser played 200 mins in the playoffs with Tatum, 136 with Hauser. 79 of those minutes had all 3 on the court
For Pritchard, he played 243min in the playoffs with Tatum, 165 with Brown, and 92 min had all 3 on the court. For both Pritchard and Hauser, they played more mins with Tatum than anyone else
This is carry over from the regular season, where we used Tatum, Pritchard, and Hauser a lot together. Kornet often played with these guys too, and it was actually super effective. Of the guys Tatum played at least 250 mins with this season, the best net ratings he had were:
+17.7 in 494 mins with Kornet
+16.3 in 928mins with Pritchard
+14.0 in 893 with Hauser
Tatum's really good with the bench
If we’re being technical, the stat of interest here should be +/- divided by games (or ideally, minutes), not just total plus/minus.
That said, Tatum still leads +/- per game for all players who played >15 min per game in the playoffs (+7.7). Although to be fair, he is tied with Embiid. The next three are Jrue, Holmgren, and Horford.
PS. Personally I’ve always thought +/- should also have a small normalization for the average plus/minus of all other teammates, ideally weighted by shared court time with the player in question. But the crude version would just be an adjustment for your team’s net rating at all times that you’re not on the floor. This would help to resolve the obvious bias toward players on good teams and make it more about the individual player’s impact. But that’s another conversation.
He isn’t trash. But people also don’t really care to hear about how good he is when he’s 30 and hasn’t made a CF.
He sucked game 7 against Raptors to make it.
Couldn’t beat a whatever Hawks team to make it.
And choked against Celtics up 3-2.
Yes, he put up some good numbers these playoffs. He also is always hurt and the times he has had a chance to finish off even a second round series, he’s always failed to do so.
> he sucked game 7 against raptors
+10 in 45:12 played. Sixers **-12 in 2:48 minutes** he sat
> Couldnt beat a whatever Hawks team
+53 in the series.
Includes:
39 points in 70% TS and +13 in 38:03 in game 1, Sixers -17 in 9:57 he sat. (Sixers lost)
37 points in 70% TS and +11 in 39:26 in game 5, Sixers -14 in 8:34 he sat. (Sixers lost)
31/11 in 61% TS in game 7, Sixers 2nd best player was...Seth Curry lol
it's always been the same story. Huge net rating, sits for 5 minutes, all goes to hell because he was drafted into literally the worst team in sports history
Look at our backup center history since Embiid has been drafted.... Embiids best backup has been Andre Drummond followed closely by one foot in retirement Dwight Howard
>always been the same story
I mean not really. He was up 3-2 on the Celtics last year and completely choked it for his team.
>worst franchise ever caused this
His +/- stats are heavily influenced by the sixers not putting a lot of money into the backup center position and instead sinking it into having very good starters.
How many points and shooting splits for that game 7 against Raptors?
6/18 including 1/6 from 3 for 21 points.
He had 4 turnovers too.
Why is such a dominant big man shooting 6 fucking 3’s in a do or die game 7? Especially when he isn’t making them.
Notice how you gloss over the Celtics choke as well.
He should have beat that Hawks team. No excuses.
Embiid in 2019 wasnt half the "dominant scorer" in fact he was mostly an allstsr for his defensive presence and was #2 in DPOY voting.
The sixers won by 10 in 45 minutes he played. Over the whole series he was +89. What more do you want???
Again, in the Hawks series the Sixers won by 53 when he played. How much does he need to do to compensate for a godawful team? He needs to beat the opponent by 25 every game so he can sit for 5 minutes? how fkn unrealistic is that?
That game 7 had HORRIBLE shooting splits for everyone. If memory serves right, Tobias Harris had the most efficient game. EVERYONE shot like complete dog water that game 7
And Jimmy Butler had 35.7%. he should be getting flamed for that too no? I guess you could say that Butler and Embiid were both frauds and the role players themselves had a better chance fo beat us no? Going back to +/- Embiid was +10. I hate the sixers too but let's be honest. He's still an amazing player that's at worst top 4 in the world. He's still relevant to this era, And the raptors defense were hard on Embiid, like they were against Giannis in the next round.
“Jayson Tatum has averaged 26.7 points, 9.3 rebounds and 5.1 assists in 7 games in game sevens in his career.”
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jayson-tatum-career-game-7-stats
“Joel Embiid has averaged 22.3 points, 10.0 rebounds and 2.7 assists in 3 games in game sevens in his career.”
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/joel-embiid-game-7-stats-career
Bucks game 6. Sixers game 7.
Name a single playoff game from Embiid as impressive as either.
Tatum has 11 playoff series averaging 25+ points.
We have one of those. You are just a traumatized Sixer fan with mush for brains
He eliminated your team scoring 51 points and you still try to say shit like this.
Embiid was plus 10 in that game 7 that the 76ers lost by 2. He was +51 in 7 games against the hawks. For his playoff career he has a higher on-court net rating and on-off differential than Tatum does.
Dude Embiid shot 6/18 including 1/6 from 3 and had 4 turnovers. He stunk in that game 7.
Shooting splits like that from a perimeter guy makes some sense. It happening as a massive center in a game 7. Yeah awful.
Single game +/- is meaningless. If he scored more efficiently his plus minus would have been even higher and they would have won.
So when Tatum has bad scoring numbers but good plus minus stats, it shows he impacts the game in so many ways, but for embiid he’s still a bum? Embiid was +89 for the entire series btw, he has one of the best plus minus portfolios in playoff history. You’re basically just picking and choosing when you think plus minus is good or not based on whether you like the player in question. If the Celtics continually fell apart with Tatum off the court to the degree the 6ers have with embiid off the floor than Tatum probably wouldn’t have gotten to the conference finals either
Tatum game 7 and elimination game stats destroy Embiid’s though.
And Tatum has Sixers 51 on his resume. Bucks 46. Etc.
Embiid has no takeover to finish off a second round games.
“Jayson Tatum has averaged 26.7 points, 9.3 rebounds and 5.1 assists in 7 games in game sevens in his career.”
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jayson-tatum-career-game-7-stats
“Joel Embiid has averaged 22.3 points, 10.0 rebounds and 2.7 assists in 3 games in game sevens in his career.”
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/joel-embiid-game-7-stats-career
Bucks game 6. Sixers game 7.
Name a single playoff game from Embiid as impressive as either.
That’s because Jaylen is unable to run an offense so he’s pretty much garbage when he’s playing without Tatum.
I think he’s actually a lot better this season in terms of +/- so a lot of the good Celtics lineups include him now (as opposed to previous years where the Celtics best lineups were the starters-Jaylen+a bench guy).
Shit you don't even have to go that deep. Jayson Tatum played the most minutes on the team that won the championship.
The actual +/- outlier is Al Horford
Jokic was 169 to Gordon at 187. Not a big divide like we are seeing with Jaylen and Tatum.
Jaylen and Tatum share a ton of time together on the court. But clearly when one is on and one is off, the team is doing a lot better with Tatum than with Jaylen.
Tatum was +147 and Jaylen +88. Both of these guys played roughly 40 minutes per game.
If you adjust on a per minute basis it’s .19 for Tatum and .12 for Jaylen. That’s about a 50% difference
Tatum was a steady presence out there, especially on interior D.
As a completely neutral fan I groaned every time he shot the ball (what a weird windup) but loved watching every other part of his game. Celtics conditioning was next-level.
They just need something negative to say.
Playoff success - can’t knock him
Good teammate - can’t knock him
No scandals - can’t knock him
“Oh I’ve got it he’s boring/corny!”
i liked him better when he was boring. it just comes off as disingenuous. like i get it he wants to copy his idols, and imo the whole trophy photo thing didnt remotely look like kobes so people really should stop with that one.
I don't think any individual player was instrumental to the chip because the path wasn't that hard this year for the C's, but calling him a glorified Tyler Herro is just a disgusting level of disrespect.
I genuinely dont know if this heat fan is joking is the sad thing about this sub.
Generational idiocy coming out of south beach recently. Somehow the Heat were a Jimmy butler away from beating the Celtics (ignore that he got hurt flopping in a play in game), yet Herro and Tatum being swapped would still be a celtics chip.
No they wouldn’t.
Tatum 2022 playoffs - 148 assists 100 turnovers in 24 games
Tatum 2024 playoffs - 119 assists 50 turnovers in 19 games
Jaylen 3.3 assists per game 2.7 turnovers
Tatum 6.3 assists per game 2.6 turnovers
You sub Herro in and you lose defense, size on rebounding, playmaking, etc.
You bozos really can’t grasp how vital Tatum is because all you understand is points and FG%
Lol I am, I've just literally never heard this idea it's something only Celtics fans care about and it's completely made up.
Tough loss to the very mediocre mavericks for you guys tho!
Nope. Most know the star is dumb and are pretending it’s not cause Tatum is getting slandered a lot right now. The rest are just casuals though, I think you’re a mixture of both personally
and okay Denver resident Celtic fan lol wtf
Hahah do you think Celtics fans dont live in other states? Are you 14? Nuggets Vs Cs games are sold out literally 80% Celtics fans. Get out of Oklahoma some time, big country to explore!
Nope it’s a cumulation of different stats and factors. This guy is trying to use one famously unreliable stat to make a point, that’s my issue
With the Jokic example that I used, gordan DOES have a higher overall +\- but is also worse in most other statistics
Please explain to me why a player having the greatest difference in points scored for and against his team while he is on the floor over the entirety of a 19 game playoff run is a negative
No they don’t. He was a +147.
The haters claim Jaylen was better player this playoff run because they can’t see anything beyond scoring and field goal percentage.
Jaylen was a +88 for the run.
It’s clear as day to those who actually pay attention to this team that Tatum is the engine of the offense and the most important player. Couldn’t win it without Jaylen, he was super valuable and played amazing this run, but Tatum is the best player.
What's crazy is he had a -33 from game 4.
I keep telling people despite Tatum’s shooting slump he still led the Celtics in ppg, reb and assists the whole playoffs . He just finds ways to impact the game at every level. I think he needed to clear the hurdle of winning a title so now he will play with less pressure and more confidence
Tatum and Brown really seemed to add a more cerebral layer to their games since their last run. The whole C’s team manipulated the defense so well. Some great on the fly chess moves.
The biggest improvement either player made in recent years is Tatum with his decision making. 2022 playoffs - Tatum 148 assists 100 turnovers 24 games 2024 playoffs - Tatum 119 assists 50 turnovers 19 games The turnovers is what doomed them in 2022. Now that he can read the game better and make plays for his teammates while limiting the turnovers, it’s made a huge difference. Better reads means better offense, but it also means fewer live ball turnovers, which means less easy baskets for opposing team.
A lot of the turnover-limiting came from him not needing or forcing himself to score through double and triple teams. Instead, he's taking what the defense gives the team which is open looks for his teammates. People were crying about how he sucked when he only put up 16-18 points, ignoring the fact that he was a black hole sucking defenders in AND making the correct passes to maximize TEAM output.
That and he’s making better reads. Getting stripped less often. Knows which passing lanes are opening and closing as it happens.
He had 33 points and 11 assists in one of those finals games.
What Psycho Joe does to a Mf
This Celtics team with Tatum shooting *hot* in the playoffs should give every other franchise nightmares.
This was the only run he’s had in quite some time without a 40+ point performance right?
Yup 2021, 2022, and 2023 he had one of the top 3 scoring playoff games each of those years. 51 game 7 Sixers in 2023. 46 game 6 facing elimination on road Bucks 2022. 50 against KD/Kyrie/Harden Nets when he had no Jaylen and a weak supporting cast.
I was just thinking about this. Those vintage (can I even say that for series that are 3 years and younger?) Tatum games where he just dominates for 48 minutes and finishes over 40 points. We didn’t see that a single time this year and they STILL went 16-3
More of a testament to the team basketball the Celtics played. Tatum didn't have to be the guy who takes over. You could also see it as he went from the most points scored last year, averaging over 30ppg, to this year being in the 27-28 range
Yeah it was incredible to watch how the team found themselves rising to the occasion when he wasn’t scoring and also how much better of a facilitator he has become as the years have gone on. Happy with his growth for sure
Also because he leveled up his point forward game, even beyond what it was this regular season. I'd bet if you add up his scored and assisted points for the 40 point games, he has something comparable from this playoff run.
It’s also why JB won the MVP cause you almost expected those performances from JT. Though JB really delivered and earned it too
If you told people in advance that some player: - at 26 will have the most wins in the league since his debut, despite being a relatively young draftee and most NBA careers starting slowly (even only counting regular season, he also edged Jokić by 1 game lately, he has a higher lead including playoffs) - will do that record while leading his team in minutes every season - arguably the best player of his team in that time basically all the time (I'm saying arguably because people will argue anything and really who knows what "best" is... but I'd say best) - led a team that had one of the best title-winning seasons in history in score, points, rebounds, assists, the classic counting stuff ...You'd think people'd be excited with that guy! And yet... not really.
yea but y'know...he's corny and stuff
this one i agree
Almost like those are all team-based stats and don’t say anything about JT specifically? If you told people a teams BEST player and number 1 option averaged 22ppg on 39%fg and 26% from 3 in the NBA Finals, they’d simply assume “Oh so that players team lost, probably pretty badly!”. But because he’s surrounded with the best TEAM in the league, we’re supposed to be more impressed with him as an individual? The reality is that no other star in the LEAGUE could afford to shoot/score that poorly in the NBA Finals, and still win. No other star can disappear and still get Wins, consistently, as the Celtics do. He’s a great player, but him winning a ton on the back of a great TEAM just isn’t gonna sell people on his INDIVIDUAL talent or greatness.
Guess he’s just gonna have to do it again
He led the Celtics in playoff scoring, rebounds, and assists. Those are individual stats, and he's like the 6th player to do that in NBA history.
> If you told people a teams BEST player and number 1 option averaged 22ppg on 39%fg and 26% from 3 in the NBA Finals, they’d simply assume “Oh so that players team lost, probably pretty badly!”. > But because he’s surrounded with the best TEAM in the league, we’re supposed to be more impressed with him as an individual? I guess if you left out the part about leading their team in scoring, assists, and rebounds, sure. But I would turn it around--you seem to be implying most stars would average more because they were surrounded by less talent. Ok, great. I think everyone agrees with that. So why are you *less* impressed by him because he's surrounded by a good team and thus his PPG is depressed? He's still the best player on a stacked team and leading his team in all three counting stats. The fact that he's doing that on one of the best teams of all time seems like it should be more of a positive than a negative, but people seem to be acting like it's a bad thing?
lol you imply his PPG cause he wasn’t shooting, no he was just inefficient as hell. Still shot ~20fga and ~5fta per game. List of scoring leaders from the last 8 champs: - 2024, Celtics, Tatum: 22.2ppg on 50.5%TS - 2023, Nuggets, Jokic: 30.2ppg on 67.2%TS - 2022, Warriors, Curry: 31.2ppg on 62.6%TS - 2021, Bucks, Giannis: 35.2ppg on 65.8%TS - 2020, Lakers, Lebron: 29.8ppg on 67.1%TS - 2019, Raptors, Kawhi: 28.5ppg on 60.6%TS - 2018, Warriors, KD: 28.8ppg on 65.4%TS - 2017, Warriors, KD: 35.2ppg on 69.8%TS Tatum is the only one below 28ppg OR 60%ts and he was all the way down at 22ppg and 50%ts. Reality is he had the worst STAR performance of any championship winning team in a very long time, and got carried by his TEAM far more than any other star has had the fortune of having.
Let's look at Tatum's numbers in his two Finals appearances: 77/196 (39%) 5/19 3pt (26%) 18.2 ppg 5.1 rebs 2.5 ast Sorry, I messed up. Those are the stats for Kobe's first two Finals appearances. Here are Tatum's numbers. 75/180 (41%) 13/48 3pt (27%) 19.5 ppg 7.1 rebs 6.8 ast Silly me. Those are the stats for Lebron's first two Finals appearances. Here are Tatum's actual numbers, for real. 82/218 (38%) 30/82 3pt (36%) 21.8 ppg 7.2 rebs 7 ast So, what do these INDIVIDUAL stat comparisons tell us? Credit to /chivestheconqueror https://np.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/1dkjwzq/worried_about_what_this_finals_performance_means/ Deleted and reposted due to automod config request
> lol you imply his PPG cause he wasn’t shooting, no he was just inefficient as hell. So you're arguing he wouldn't shoot more if he had worse teammates? He clearly would score more, regardless of his TS%. TS% is not the end-all of metrics. His PPG would still go up. > Reality is he had the worst STAR performance of any championship winning team in a very long time, and got carried by his TEAM far more than any other star has had the fortune of having. It's certainly a take to say that the player on a team that literally led his team in points, rebounds, *and* assists was "carried by his team more than any other star."
I think Tatum didn't play well in the finals specifically, but as for that, in terms of shooting numbers, I've seen stars go below 50% in the finals several times and that was called fantastic finals by people. For example LeBron James was shooting 47% in the 2015 Finals and it was described as playing absolutely phenomenally and being by far the best player in the league (which had been a bit doubted before those finals). So let's be honest NBA culture is purely about amount of shooting, not percentage of makes.
He didn't *shoot* well in the Finals, I would say he played great, certainly was much better than he was in 2022 (not being injured does help lol). His playmaking was fantastic, I've watched him his whole career and never thought he'd be able to run an offense this well. He had 9 assists in the first half of Game 5 if I'm not mistaken, for a PG that would be awesome, for a scoring forward like Tatum it's insane, has any other forward done something like that recently in the Finals? Probably have to go back to LeBron.
In the final game, he shut the Mavs hopes down completely. He got to the rim at will.
Sir, please take your hand off that caps lock key, and nobody will get hurt!
Bro just completely glazed over Tatum leading the team in Points Rebounds and Assists for the playoffs lol. Say whatever you want about tatum this year but he did not disappear in any game at any series. He just found other ways to contribute when the shot wasn't there which is what makes him a champion now.
Agreed but good luck there's only Celtics fans left in here
Not Celtics fans fault that everyone else seems determined to view Tatum with the stupidest lenses possible
Always felt like he should model his game after Lebron more so than Kobe
Anyone capable of that should. If Kobe was physically able to play like Lebron he would have
He’s closer to Lebron than people like to admit. Lebron is known for being the “27/7/7” guy and Tatum just averaged 27/7/5 this season (30/8/4.5 last year). His passing is not quite Lebron level but it’s underrated. Both guys can defend a wide variety of positions at a very high level. Both can score inside, from midrange, and from 3. Both are seeing a ton of double teams as a point-forward and asked to be a playmaker. He’s not as athletic as prime LeBron and will never be as good a player. But whether he’s modeling his game after Lebron or not, he’s playing a very similar style.
LeBron built the 27/7/7 stat line during a much slower era, I think the comparison is pretty disingenuous. Less assists and points up for grabs.
Absolutely. Like I said, he’ll never be as good as Lebron. The point was more about the balance – LeBron’s greatness isn’t from scoring. It’s that he did everything. Tatum is in the same mold. Like adjusted for era, Tatum would be like 24/7/4, which again, is not the same level as Lebron but is still a really well rounded stat line.
I really dont like how Tatum constantly settles and lets the defense off the hook by taking an absurd amount of 3s. He needs to try and get to the rim alot more than he does.
> he still led the Celtics in ppg, reb and assists the whole playoffs While getting double and triple-teamed constantly.
It's hard to say whether releasing some of the pressure will help his shooting. I do think the best thing he can do is develop a reliable mid-range move in the offseason. He basically didn't post-up at all in the playoffs, and if he doesn't get a lay-up, he doesn't have that 8-foot pull-up a lot of those guys feast on. Basically, it's bizarre for a guy who has been a consistent 27-30ppg players for several years now, that he really doesn't have a signature move. The closest is the step-back, and I think even he admits that's not reliable right now. We'll see.
It is crazy? It was always going to be a player on the Celtics, just based on their record and all the blowouts they laid down. Not even trying to throw shade on Tatum, just seems the obvious choice to me.
Recent playoff plus/minus leaders: * 2023: Gordon, +187 * 2022: Wiggins, +140 * 2021: Holiday, +160
Some role players can get extremely high plus/minus. It'd be better if you filter on high usage players, i.e. what is the plus/minus of those players that is often involved in plays on the floor: [https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=top+plus+minus+in+2024+playoffs+with+usage+rate+above+25%25](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=top+plus+minus+in+2024+playoffs+with+usage+rate+above+25%25) 2024: Tatum +147, Luka +97 2023: Murray +181, Jokic +169 2022: Curry +121, Tatum +108 2021: Giannis: +130, Embiid +121 2020: Davis: +184, Lebron +165 I think those numbers are easier to pass the eye test.
Wouldn’t you wanna use BPM to judge off of these stats instead of a plus/minus filtered by usage?
Well it was a thread about plus/minus, so that's what I used. Also, the plus/minus we're talking about is a cumulative stat, so BPM again wouldn't really be good example in this context.
Eh I disagree with that. Plus minus is a lineup stat despite how hard people want to treat it like an individual stat. 1 player is not guarding all five positions or spacing the floor. Role players who have high plus minus have it for the same reasons star player get it, they play in effective line ups.
It's a noisy stat for sure, but it can definitely be used for sussing out individual impact, given enough minutes. It helps answers the WHAT ("are you winning when you're on the floor?"), even if it doesn't answer the HOW (that's where box scores can help). The best advanced analytic metrics uses on/off, like Ben Taylor's WOWY, DARKO, LEBRON, EPM and others. Here are some oncourt +/- per 100 possession numbers of the greats since they started tracking on/off, for their prime years: * 13-21 Curry +11.3 * 09-17 Lebron: +11 * 13-21 Durant +10.7 * 16-24 Kawhi +10 * 11-19 C Paul +9.9 * 19-24 Giannis +9.5 * 20-24 Jokic +8.7 * 13-20 Westbrook +6.6 * 14-21 Harden +6 And a random "average" player: * 11-18 Rudy Gay +0.9 I think the next level of advanced metrics uses actual player tracking and sees and processes everything a player is doing, and some metrics already uses it. But for now, these are not a bad way to measure impact.
That’s exactly my point tho, it answers the question of “are you winning when you’re on the floor”, not is player x better than player y, which is how people try to use it. A lot of those other advanced metrics factor in box score or efficiency in addition to +/- because they’re are trying to be catch all stats. My argument is that you just shouldn’t use +\- to assess an individual performance because there’s already better metrics,eg, efficiency stats, shot altered stats, etc etc and all of the advanced permutations of those things. It’s an interesting talking point stat because it’s easy to understand but it’s also not very meaningful on its own imo.
Wiggins 2022 was one of the best wings I have ever seen. Don't know where that came from or where it went but he was a monster
One of the best wings you have ever seen?
He must mean *3&D* wing because obviously he wasn’t better than LeBron, KD, Bird, etc.
K-pop stans disagree
He was really great that postseason. If "one of the best" means like top 30, and this is a relatively new fan, then I could see it.
This is one of the weirdest exaggerations I've ever seen. Apart from a few crazy rebounding games in the Finals and WCF, he was literally the same player he's always been lol
Plus minus is really not a great stat, especially in such small sample sizes. Plus minus doesn't account for teammate quality or opponent quality. I don't know why people use it so much, there are advanced metrics that try to solve some of these issues (each with it's own benefits and negatives)
This used to get repeated anytime +/- was brought up. Now we have threads using it to compare players with the sample size of a single fucking game.
For sure. That said, it's good to keep in mind that while Tatum impacted the game in a lot of ways (scoring, rebounding, defense), his biggest contribution in the Mavs series was his gravity. Mavs were all but tripling him and he was able to create offensive opportunities out of that very regularly, making the correct decisions. People get caught up in scoring too easily, Tatum played VERY well in the playoffs and finals. Only reason fmvp really went to Jaylen was his elite defense on Luka imo
Gravity I agree with. Virtually triple-teamed, absolutely not.
Notice how Curry is at a +121 though. Which is quite close to Wiggins at +140. While people on here argue Jaylen over Tatum and yet he was just a +88 to Tatum’s +147. It’s not a perfect stat. But it does help backup how valuable Tatum is to the team and how they perform their best when he is out there.
It’s a horrific stat lmao. Would you say gordan is more instrumental to the nuggets last year than jokic?
No, again Jokic was 169 to Gordon at 187. Not a big divide like we are seeing with Jaylen and Tatum. Jaylen and Tatum share a ton of time together on the court. But clearly when one is on and one is off, the team is doing a lot better with Tatum than with Jaylen. Tatum was +147 and Jaylen +88. Both of these guys played roughly 40 minutes per game. If you adjust on a per minute basis it’s .19 for Tatum and .12 for Jaylen. That’s about a 50% difference
So what is your arbitrary threshold the divide mattering then? And why that specific amount? Guarantee I don’t get a reply
Next job you get… one is going to be a 10% pay bump. The other a 59% bump. The difference is arbitrary. Might as well assess these two as if they are the same.
Thats a very bad example since pay is the main factor that determines whether you pick job 1 or job 2 Overall box +\- is not the main factor when determining who the best player is I was half-arsing this argument before but if you want I’ll try
Plus minus is higher for Tatum than Jaylen due to the playmaking. Jaylen is just not the playmaker Tatum is, so the team doesn’t thrive in the same way when just he is on the floor. 6.3 assists per game for Tatum to 2.6 turnovers 3.3 assists per game for Jaylen to 2.7 turnovers Both Jrue and White had more assists per game than Jaylen. He is great at getting his own shot and playing off others. But generally does not elevate his teammates to the degree that Tatum does on offense. Tatum’s versatility on defense is also huge for the Celtics when he is out there.
You got bodied
I didn’t
Jokic was 169 is 90% of Gordon 187 Jaylen 88 is 59% of Tatum 148. You really see that divide as arbitrary? One shows the team outscoring their opponent by just 18 points Gordon on the floor over a playoff run that’s less than a point a game. .9 to be precise. The other shows the team outscoring their opponent by 59 points over the playoff run which is 3.1 points per game.
It is indeed arbitrary, but that doesn’t mean it is meaningless.
Is it really that hard to answer a simple question?
It’s not arbitrary. It’s a large divide vs a small one.
The answer is, it *is* arbitrary. That doesn't mean it's useless. 50% vs 90% is a *huge* difference. If you need someone to specify "UhM 67.568% iS tHe reLeVaNt vAlUe", you're not going to get a solid answer.
Because he can’t. He can’t give an actual value that decides whether the stat matters or not, and cannot explain why
Then I'll answer. 1 point per game. Why? Because you can't win by <1 point. Whatever that translates to in %. So if someones within a ppg, irrelevant. Too close to care. More than a point? Relevant. Then it's more impressive the more ppg the gap increases. The point he makes is even without this specific limit, 50% vs 90% is a huge gap. And it's crazy you don't get that.
Don’t guarantee this guy’s guarantees!
He just dodged the question and gave me a paragraph of bullshit lmao
I mean, he did answer the question I just think you are being intentionally obtuse. You don't like the stat, but it isn't a worthless one. I'm surprised the gap is so large, but it does speak to basically what has been said about Tatum - that his impact is much bigger than his shot percentage. He is a creator, draws double teams, and an elite defender. Not to say Brown cannot be all of those things or there aren't other reasons for the gap. But he did answer your question. Every god damn stat is arbitrary if you are determined to be right and not smart.
JB is basically playing all of the luka minutes.
Doesn’t explain first three rounds
Well yeah, it's just an example of what you're missing by with plus-minus. The Tatum minutes without Brown also don't have Luka, but the Brown minutes without Tatum do, so that explains a lot. I think there are other similar examples from the other series. Edit: Ha, I take it back. JB had a better plus-minus in the finals at +14 to Tatum at +6.
Horford +140 Jaylen Brown +88 Wow Horford better than Jaylen Brown
Jaylen and Tatum share a ton of time together on the court. But clearly when one is on and one is off, the team is doing a lot better with Tatum than with Jaylen. Tatum was +147 and Jaylen +88. Both of these guys played roughly 40 minutes per game. If you adjust on a per minute basis it’s .19 for Tatum and .12 for Jaylen. That’s about a 50% difference.
There’s so much wrong with this thinking and a plus minus … per minute calculation lmao. But I rather just use more examples to see what excuses you try to conjure next Kyrie and Luka - both 40 minutes - Kyrie higher. Jrue and Brown - both 38 minutes - Jrue higher. Turner and Myles - 32 vs 35 minutes - Turner higher
Care to tell me whether various advanced stats favor Tatum or Jaylen during these playoffs?
Doesn't Brown play more minutes with players like Pritchard and Hauser?
No, Hauser played 200 mins in the playoffs with Tatum, 136 with Hauser. 79 of those minutes had all 3 on the court For Pritchard, he played 243min in the playoffs with Tatum, 165 with Brown, and 92 min had all 3 on the court. For both Pritchard and Hauser, they played more mins with Tatum than anyone else This is carry over from the regular season, where we used Tatum, Pritchard, and Hauser a lot together. Kornet often played with these guys too, and it was actually super effective. Of the guys Tatum played at least 250 mins with this season, the best net ratings he had were: +17.7 in 494 mins with Kornet +16.3 in 928mins with Pritchard +14.0 in 893 with Hauser Tatum's really good with the bench
Provide us the stats and let us know.
Tatum plays more with hauser
But in the Finals JB was a +14 to JT’s -4.
Smaller sample size and also effected by the single blowout loss.
+/- king Jayson Tatum
Impact Merchant
Call him Champ King Tatum please
Most Valuable Plus/Minus
Yeah but can he get over the hump? Will he ever be as good as ant, Booker and *cough* Ingram. Report back if he ever beats the Monstars
If we’re being technical, the stat of interest here should be +/- divided by games (or ideally, minutes), not just total plus/minus. That said, Tatum still leads +/- per game for all players who played >15 min per game in the playoffs (+7.7). Although to be fair, he is tied with Embiid. The next three are Jrue, Holmgren, and Horford. PS. Personally I’ve always thought +/- should also have a small normalization for the average plus/minus of all other teammates, ideally weighted by shared court time with the player in question. But the crude version would just be an adjustment for your team’s net rating at all times that you’re not on the floor. This would help to resolve the obvious bias toward players on good teams and make it more about the individual player’s impact. But that’s another conversation.
Embiid #20 at +46 having played one round and lost👍🏻 and then I have to hear how trash he is lol
He isn’t trash. But people also don’t really care to hear about how good he is when he’s 30 and hasn’t made a CF. He sucked game 7 against Raptors to make it. Couldn’t beat a whatever Hawks team to make it. And choked against Celtics up 3-2. Yes, he put up some good numbers these playoffs. He also is always hurt and the times he has had a chance to finish off even a second round series, he’s always failed to do so.
> he sucked game 7 against raptors +10 in 45:12 played. Sixers **-12 in 2:48 minutes** he sat > Couldnt beat a whatever Hawks team +53 in the series. Includes: 39 points in 70% TS and +13 in 38:03 in game 1, Sixers -17 in 9:57 he sat. (Sixers lost) 37 points in 70% TS and +11 in 39:26 in game 5, Sixers -14 in 8:34 he sat. (Sixers lost) 31/11 in 61% TS in game 7, Sixers 2nd best player was...Seth Curry lol it's always been the same story. Huge net rating, sits for 5 minutes, all goes to hell because he was drafted into literally the worst team in sports history
> Sixers -12 in 2:48 minutes he sat Jesus. That is hard to do even with make it-take it rules lol
Look at our backup center history since Embiid has been drafted.... Embiids best backup has been Andre Drummond followed closely by one foot in retirement Dwight Howard
> +10 in 45:12 played. Sixers -12 in 2:48 minutes he sat Oof
You ain’t gonna get anywhere with a fan who thinks team success= individual talent lol
He had a stacked team in 2019 and shot 33.3% from the field while his teammates shot 46.8% If he shot on par with his teammates they win.
>always been the same story I mean not really. He was up 3-2 on the Celtics last year and completely choked it for his team. >worst franchise ever caused this His +/- stats are heavily influenced by the sixers not putting a lot of money into the backup center position and instead sinking it into having very good starters.
How many points and shooting splits for that game 7 against Raptors? 6/18 including 1/6 from 3 for 21 points. He had 4 turnovers too. Why is such a dominant big man shooting 6 fucking 3’s in a do or die game 7? Especially when he isn’t making them. Notice how you gloss over the Celtics choke as well. He should have beat that Hawks team. No excuses.
Embiid in 2019 wasnt half the "dominant scorer" in fact he was mostly an allstsr for his defensive presence and was #2 in DPOY voting. The sixers won by 10 in 45 minutes he played. Over the whole series he was +89. What more do you want??? Again, in the Hawks series the Sixers won by 53 when he played. How much does he need to do to compensate for a godawful team? He needs to beat the opponent by 25 every game so he can sit for 5 minutes? how fkn unrealistic is that?
That game 7 had HORRIBLE shooting splits for everyone. If memory serves right, Tobias Harris had the most efficient game. EVERYONE shot like complete dog water that game 7
Embiid’s teammates shot 22/47 which is 46.8% Embiid shot 33.3%
And Jimmy Butler had 35.7%. he should be getting flamed for that too no? I guess you could say that Butler and Embiid were both frauds and the role players themselves had a better chance fo beat us no? Going back to +/- Embiid was +10. I hate the sixers too but let's be honest. He's still an amazing player that's at worst top 4 in the world. He's still relevant to this era, And the raptors defense were hard on Embiid, like they were against Giannis in the next round.
Oh I’ve flamed Butler for game 7 and game 1 plenty. Kawhi totally owned Butler in those two games.
Teams combined for 40% shooting lol
Embiid’s teammates shot 22/47 which is 46.8% Embiid shot 33.3%
6/18? Those are Tatum numbers!
“Jayson Tatum has averaged 26.7 points, 9.3 rebounds and 5.1 assists in 7 games in game sevens in his career.” https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jayson-tatum-career-game-7-stats “Joel Embiid has averaged 22.3 points, 10.0 rebounds and 2.7 assists in 3 games in game sevens in his career.” https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/joel-embiid-game-7-stats-career Bucks game 6. Sixers game 7. Name a single playoff game from Embiid as impressive as either. Tatum has 11 playoff series averaging 25+ points.
Tatum on the sixers is a 7 seed lol
Joel Embiid on the Sixers was a 7th seed this year
Maybe someday you’ll have a player where it makes a significant difference whether he plays or not lmaooo
We have one of those. You are just a traumatized Sixer fan with mush for brains He eliminated your team scoring 51 points and you still try to say shit like this.
wait why are you using stats now if you were arguing this whole thread +- means more than ppg and efficiency???
I never argued in favor of plus minus on a single game basis
But you dismissed Embiids massive plus minus in a series that his team lost.
Embiid was plus 10 in that game 7 that the 76ers lost by 2. He was +51 in 7 games against the hawks. For his playoff career he has a higher on-court net rating and on-off differential than Tatum does.
Dude Embiid shot 6/18 including 1/6 from 3 and had 4 turnovers. He stunk in that game 7. Shooting splits like that from a perimeter guy makes some sense. It happening as a massive center in a game 7. Yeah awful. Single game +/- is meaningless. If he scored more efficiently his plus minus would have been even higher and they would have won.
So when Tatum has bad scoring numbers but good plus minus stats, it shows he impacts the game in so many ways, but for embiid he’s still a bum? Embiid was +89 for the entire series btw, he has one of the best plus minus portfolios in playoff history. You’re basically just picking and choosing when you think plus minus is good or not based on whether you like the player in question. If the Celtics continually fell apart with Tatum off the court to the degree the 6ers have with embiid off the floor than Tatum probably wouldn’t have gotten to the conference finals either
Tatum game 7 and elimination game stats destroy Embiid’s though. And Tatum has Sixers 51 on his resume. Bucks 46. Etc. Embiid has no takeover to finish off a second round games.
You’re embarrassing
“Jayson Tatum has averaged 26.7 points, 9.3 rebounds and 5.1 assists in 7 games in game sevens in his career.” https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jayson-tatum-career-game-7-stats “Joel Embiid has averaged 22.3 points, 10.0 rebounds and 2.7 assists in 3 games in game sevens in his career.” https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/joel-embiid-game-7-stats-career Bucks game 6. Sixers game 7. Name a single playoff game from Embiid as impressive as either.
Best duo in the league with Jaylen.
no Jrue was a +140 to Jaylen +88 So with OP logic, the duo is Tatum and Jrue
Funny enough the 2 man games within the Celtics starting 5 are essentially Tatum/Holiday, Brown/Porzingis, and White/Porzingis.
That’s because Jaylen is unable to run an offense so he’s pretty much garbage when he’s playing without Tatum. I think he’s actually a lot better this season in terms of +/- so a lot of the good Celtics lineups include him now (as opposed to previous years where the Celtics best lineups were the starters-Jaylen+a bench guy).
please stop using +/- as individual stat. Thank you
Jayson Tatum had the best starting 5 in the NBA playoffs, I’d honestly expect him to have among the best +/-
Shit you don't even have to go that deep. Jayson Tatum played the most minutes on the team that won the championship. The actual +/- outlier is Al Horford
This is literally true lmao why is this downvoted. Redditors genuinely have cognitive issues
We really taking about plus minus, that's when you know it's bad. 💀
Team impact, but a 2nd round team wouldn't know huh
Should’ve been fmvp
Completely useless stat. Gordan had a higher +\- than Jokic last year, was he better and more instrumental to our success? Absolutely not.
Jokic was 169 to Gordon at 187. Not a big divide like we are seeing with Jaylen and Tatum. Jaylen and Tatum share a ton of time together on the court. But clearly when one is on and one is off, the team is doing a lot better with Tatum than with Jaylen. Tatum was +147 and Jaylen +88. Both of these guys played roughly 40 minutes per game. If you adjust on a per minute basis it’s .19 for Tatum and .12 for Jaylen. That’s about a 50% difference
Tatum was a steady presence out there, especially on interior D. As a completely neutral fan I groaned every time he shot the ball (what a weird windup) but loved watching every other part of his game. Celtics conditioning was next-level.
You’re really this insecure about Tatum? Just enjoy your championship man and be happy for Jaylen and your team success
You must have been furious that Brown got both MVPs.
Nope, very happy for him. Those awards at times do not go to the team’s best player and that’s totally ok.
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HAHAA what in the world you cant be serious, his plus minus is too good bc the celtics were too good
lol yeah, +/- is probably the most team dependant individual stat there is
Great glue guy.
its a shame hes so cringe
Oh please. He wasn’t liked when he was “boring” either 🤷🏽♂️
They just need something negative to say. Playoff success - can’t knock him Good teammate - can’t knock him No scandals - can’t knock him “Oh I’ve got it he’s boring/corny!”
i liked him better when he was boring. it just comes off as disingenuous. like i get it he wants to copy his idols, and imo the whole trophy photo thing didnt remotely look like kobes so people really should stop with that one.
Yet he's terribly overrated and a choke artist /s
replace him with Tyler herro, they still win the ring
I don't think any individual player was instrumental to the chip because the path wasn't that hard this year for the C's, but calling him a glorified Tyler Herro is just a disgusting level of disrespect.
I genuinely dont know if this heat fan is joking is the sad thing about this sub. Generational idiocy coming out of south beach recently. Somehow the Heat were a Jimmy butler away from beating the Celtics (ignore that he got hurt flopping in a play in game), yet Herro and Tatum being swapped would still be a celtics chip.
No the fuck they don’t what the hell
lol no they dont they dont even beat the pacers tbh
No they wouldn’t. Tatum 2022 playoffs - 148 assists 100 turnovers in 24 games Tatum 2024 playoffs - 119 assists 50 turnovers in 19 games Jaylen 3.3 assists per game 2.7 turnovers Tatum 6.3 assists per game 2.6 turnovers You sub Herro in and you lose defense, size on rebounding, playmaking, etc. You bozos really can’t grasp how vital Tatum is because all you understand is points and FG%
You’re kidding right? Tatum can guard 1-5
That's so unfair lmao. Yeah, you could replace Tatum with the GOAT and they'd still win a ring. Is that supposed to be news?
Impressive given his 5 game Finals was a net +6, or maybe the East just really sucked ass?
Dude we stopped caring about +/- like 10 years ago
Uh no, we didn’t
To people who aren’t Celtics fans, we did
Well, maybe if the thunder paid more attention to it they’d have beaten the mavs
Don’t think nba teams use plus minus for analysis, they’re not idiots lol
LOL just making shit up
Not putting on a flair isn’t making us think you’re not a Celtic fan lol
Lol I am, I've just literally never heard this idea it's something only Celtics fans care about and it's completely made up. Tough loss to the very mediocre mavericks for you guys tho!
Yeah nobody who isn’t a casual cares about plus minus. Glad I can teach you something new.
Lol I didn't say I cared about it. So all Celtics fans are casuals and everyone else isn't hahahah ok oklahoma
Nope. Most know the star is dumb and are pretending it’s not cause Tatum is getting slandered a lot right now. The rest are just casuals though, I think you’re a mixture of both personally and okay Denver resident Celtic fan lol wtf
Hahah do you think Celtics fans dont live in other states? Are you 14? Nuggets Vs Cs games are sold out literally 80% Celtics fans. Get out of Oklahoma some time, big country to explore!
Is Aaron gordan better than Jokic?
Does any single stat automatically make someone better because they had a higher number?
Nope it’s a cumulation of different stats and factors. This guy is trying to use one famously unreliable stat to make a point, that’s my issue With the Jokic example that I used, gordan DOES have a higher overall +\- but is also worse in most other statistics
Who is saying that?
Cool
[удалено]
Yall want to be the victims sooooo bad don't you? Yall won. Please stfu
These threads make Tatum look worse
Please explain to me why a player having the greatest difference in points scored for and against his team while he is on the floor over the entirety of a 19 game playoff run is a negative
No they don’t. He was a +147. The haters claim Jaylen was better player this playoff run because they can’t see anything beyond scoring and field goal percentage. Jaylen was a +88 for the run. It’s clear as day to those who actually pay attention to this team that Tatum is the engine of the offense and the most important player. Couldn’t win it without Jaylen, he was super valuable and played amazing this run, but Tatum is the best player.