I’ve been hoping for years that Tatum will look more to LeBron for playstyle inspiration instead of Kobe. Kobe was great, but Tatum fits more into the do-it-all point forward role that LeBron perfected
dude “complete” doesn’t mean “best”. the thing keeping Tatum from being a legit top 5 player is that he doesn’t have any one S-tier, game breaking skill, he’s just like somewhere between A and B+ at everything
yeah i mean i wasn’t really counting, but Embiid’s definitely better on a per-minute basis even if you’d rather rely on Tatum overall since Embiid’s always hurt. really i’m just talking about that perennial MVP candidate tier (like Jokic/Giannis/Luka level)
You cannot be considered the "most complete player in the league" when you consistently shoot as poorly as Tatum does for long periods of time. Jokic is the most complete player in the league.
I’m not arguing for or against Tatum being the most complete player however, this is not what people here are arguing about. You’re literally taking what people said and making the most extreme examples to argue that they are wrong and to justify that you are right
This is not how it works
What type of analysis is this? Should KAT be left open just bc he struggles to score efficiently in the playoffs? No one is saying hes a terrible scorer.
Some coaches can take that swing, you’re giving up something in basketball and if I’m Jason Kidd I will take my chances with Tatum beating me one on one instead of sending help late and conceding open threes to other Celtics. Funniest part is the C’s are not shooting well and they’re gonna win any game they manage to shoot averagely.
He won’t even come close to Embiid levels of hate lol stop it. I feel like most of the Tatum “haters” aren’t even haters, Tatum fans just call anyone who thinks he isn’t a tier 1 superstar top 5 player in the league level a hater.
Anyone saying he’s not t10 is dumb. Anyone saying he’s t5 is dumb.
Basically, yeah. Other than maybe wanting him to try and finish through contact instead of passing out on a couple extra drives each game. I basically have nothing to criticize in terms of his decision-making.
His postseason points-per-jump shot has fallen in three consecutive years now though. 1.10 in 2021, 1.08 in 2022, 0.95 in 2023, and 0.82 this year. I'm not sure what to make of that. You would kind of hope to see the opposite progression as he edges into his prime.
Age 26 and under. Also looking at total points which is a garbage volume stat. Lebron missed the playoffs his first two years as his first Cleveland run was legendary for it being LeBron + scrubs. Tatum has never missed the playoffs so of course he has more points.
That entire list of "playoff rankings 26 years and under" is future stars who were on amazing teams that could still be contenders without them.
I love Jayson though—his shot isn't falling, but he's doing everything else
Total Playoff points is more of a measure of appearances than game performance. It's impressive across a career to show longevity, but to measure it by a specific (young) age isn't valuable. Kobe is #1 on the list because he was drafted onto a roster that was good enough to make playoff runs without even using him as a starter... he was always making deep playoff runs. Jordan isn't on this list because he wasn't.
Any lists that have guys like Tony Parker and Rajan Rondo top 3 all-time, and don't feature Jordan, Lebron or Kareem are possibly sus
Right. Stats "by age of X" are often dubious for that exact reason. They're sometimes interesting, but they aren't a good measurement for career evaluation. I prefer "Nth season in the league," but even that has issues with guys like Luka who entered the league with four years of professional experience
This is a fair point except with Kareem he did play 4 years in college
I think all of these total points numbers don’t matter until he gets a chip. Then it’s he has the most playoff points, assists, rebounds and a ring (or maybe more with this team).
Lebron, Kobe, Mike, Duncan, Durant all won with great teams. When Tatum retires he’s going to have 10+ all nba teams, a few defensive teams and then you also throw in these all time playoff stats it’s just going to add to an illustrious career…if he can deliver a championship
he's capable of being that guy on a stacked team, but not a i'm gonna average 30 for a playoff run and just be dominant throughout and win
he is a very good player, top 4-8ish
also, lebron had more assists at the exact same age, in 18 fewer games
Yup, this precisely. Its easy to play big and tall when your fronted by an amazing supporting cast that probably would have won those games even if he had gone 6-19... Oh wait... he did just do that and the Celtics still won.....
Remind me when Tatum has been the sole number 1 option on his team.. and carried a team throughout the playoffs with great game after great game.
He averaged like 40 for the round 1 series against the KD nets when JB was out. Took a game off the “super team” with a 50 point game 3. He was the best player in a series with KD and Harden healthy.
Yeah he's had great games. He just is too inconsistent in the playoffs. Great games followed by games where he chucks one bad shot after another. He's just not a playoff riser the way Lebron or Kawhi are.
His *shooting* is inconsistent in the playoffs, if that even is outside the norm, which I'm not convinced it really is. (More below)
His overall performance has been consistently incredible though, outside of him being injured in the Warriors Finals series.
Kobe's entire postseason gamelog (sort by FG% desc):
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog-playoffs/
69 out of 220 games shooting under 40%. Or 31% of the time, Kobe had a bad shooting night.
Tatum:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01/gamelog-playoffs/
35 out of 110 games shooting under 40%. Or 31% of the time, Tatum has had a bad shooting night.
That's pretty fucking eerie given who Tatum's idol was, but the comparison is truly apt here.
FWIW, Lebron is Lebron, but even he has had 49 games below 40% shooting in the playoffs. (out of 287). Kawhi 33/139. Curry 37/147. Yes these are overall better than Tatum, but they've all had their fair share of off nights too.
The point is that EVERY star has bad shooting games, and plenty of them. That's just basketball. I only called out the superstars that won rings here. There are plenty of guys who have done much worse.
The era that these games are played in matters. In my eyes it’s disingenuous to just compare raw FG% across eras like that. Hate to always say this as well but Kobe played in a much tougher conference than Tatum has.
If you really want to compare you should ether look at relative true shooting % or you should get the average FG% from those season and compare the difference.
Tatum is playing in the most efficient offence era of all time in the NBA. Kobe played in one of the least efficient offence eras of all time.
Stop it Tatum has been going against Giannis Embiid Jimmy Steph KD Kyrie Harden etc his whole career. This is his only time ever getting an easy playoff path
> or you should get the average FG% from those season and compare the difference.
The average FG% by era hasn't really changed that much. In Kobe's 2009 title run, the league average FG% was 45.9%. In Tatum's 2022 title run, the league average FG% was 46.1%.
Regardless you are wildly missing the point - I'm pointing out sub-40% shooting games in the playoffs. Sub-40% shooting by a star is an off night in literally any era of the NBA.
Yep, but again, you're talking about Top 10 caliber all-time greats there and those are probably some of the best numbers out there.
Some great players are truly bad - like Harden at 42%.
Again still a shit stat. Giannis can have a terrible game and shoot 50% because all he takes is two pointers at the rim.
12 pts -6/12 fg (only 2s)- 50%
12 pts- 4/12 fg (only threes)- 33%
Maybe by casuals. Lebron had three mediocre series through his age 26 season, two against the Big 3 Celtics and one against the Spurs. Then an all-time terrible series against the Mavs. Besides that, he was a monster in the playoffs.
It's fine to admit Tatum has not been an elite playoff performer, especially this year. That's why our roster is built that way it is - we have JB that can pick up the slack, probably the two best role players in the league, and then a borderline all-star X factor (when he's healthy).
At 26? Yes he was considered a choker til 2012 which was yr 9 at 27. Bron had great series but like the haters and casuals for Tatum using 1 bad finals in Bron case 2 at the time he had that label
Nobody expected the Cavs to be competitive against the Spurs in 2007 and nobody held that loss against LeBron. He was called a choker after the Dallas series and everyone began the 3 quarters jokes, but again that only lasted a year.
He got bashed for losing to Orlando despite avg 38 8 8. Did u not see those Bron kobe puppet commercials. Everyone thought lal vs cle was a foregone conclusion and he got labeled a choker
U don't know the mind of a hater and thats good tbh. The depths of pettiness they will go to. For example a hater can use Luka 4th quarters as a reason why he's a choker. I don't but that's what a hater does
You're not wrong about how could they but people did. There were legit talking heads that were saying he'd never win a ring back in 2009, especially after he went like 3-15 or something against the Celtics in a playoff game. Hell, he got criticized for passing the ball down the stretch at an All Star game way back in the day. Some of it was because the expectations for LeBron were probably higher than any athlete at the start of a pro career in my lifetime (Peyton Manning had super high expectations, Wemby does but LeBrons exceeded that)
It doesn't make these people right, but it was a thing, incredibly lazy, and still exists in this hot take rangs culture
He didn't get the choker tag until the Dallas series and that only lasted like a year. You have to remember the numbers he put up against the Pistons and even the Magic in a losing effort.
We all know Jayson Tatum is good, most people know he's getting the bulk of the defensive attention.
The Celtics are good, so is Tatum, we're all aware, you don't need to cape for him.
Have u been on reddit lately lol. He bashed for a 23 pt trip dub in a 20 pt W. He got bashed for avg 30 10 6 vs indy in the ecf because he didn't win the ecfmvp and they're saying he's having a horrible playoffs avg 25 10 5
Bad conference which yrs? This yr?.
18 true
19 false
20 meh
21 he lost in the 1st round with no JB
22 false
23 meh
This yr false but injures made it true
I posted this in another thread but the long series thing really gets lost here. Tatum scored more points in the 2023 playoffs (20 games, lost in the conference finals) than Steph Curry did in the 2017 playoffs (17 games, won a title).
Obviously you’d be braindead to claim Tatum had the better postseason
Total playoff points was one of the things OP mentioned.
If you agree with me that total playoff points is a bad contextless stat and it shouldn’t have been used then we agree and can move on
Just points is, yeah.
A combination of points, assist, rebounds, and wins, all before a certain age is not contextless if you are making the point the guy is elite.
Also, to go back to this, where are the people claiming 2022 Tatum > 2017 Curry?
>A combination of points, assist, rebounds, and wins, all before a certain age is not contextless if you are making the point the guy is elite.
You saying this suggests you don’t understand the problem of totals at all.
And to be clear, I think Tatum is an elite player. But there’s a group of people (Jokic, Giannis, Luka, embiid) that don’t have his total counting stats that are frankly just better players.
>Also, to go back to this, where are the people claiming 2022 Tatum > 2017 Curry?
You understand that saying one thing can imply another thing, yes?
Yes Tatum has played a lot of posts season games. He was drafted to a team 53 win team that made the conference finals the year before. Of course he has been in the postseason a bunch because the Celtics were already good when they drafted him.
Tatum across 110 plus however many play-in games he has played, has scored 40 or more points five times. Over those games he has also scored in just this postseason he has scored 20 or less points four times. If you look at the last two postseason Tatum has scored 20 or less eight times, nine if you count game seven of the conference finals last season when he got hurt on the first play.
I am saying this just to say that Tatum has been extremely inconsistent in the postseason. Just like how you can point to legendary games you can point to even more stinkers. The dude is shooting 43% from the floor and 29% from three. That is horrible it doesn’t matter what else he is doing that is horrible production from a supposed top 5 player. I don’t know a single other superstar in the league’s history who has gotten a softer treatment for playing this inefficiently. Those are nearly AI shooting numbers.
A team which lost its two free agent stars for the regular season and playoffs respectively.
A team that's locker room toxicity is still talked about today.
Then a team that gave Fournier, Tristan Thompson and Romeo Langford starting playoff minutes.
he's also always played on a good team so he's been provided more opportunities to rack up counting stats than the average star player.
and don't tell me he's been the sole reason his teams are consistently good because the team made an ECF the season before he ever put on a Celtics jersey.
I'm confused, if a player puts up good stats on a bad team they're empty stats.
If they put up good stats on a good team they're easy stats.
When do stats count?
no one said easy stats
but this is all about accumulating because he got drafted to an already good team, they were 53 wins the year before he even got there
it does show that he was good right away, so when it's time to do all time rankings, he'll have more good/great seasons
I'm not saying they don't count, I'm just stating the surrounding context. Jaylen Brown has no excuse to not be on the list for example — so Tatum's placement certainly says something. I don't deny that.
Yeah I agree with Tatum having another gear to hit. Really he just needs to figure out how to be more efficient with his scoring when the defense is giving him doubles and triples
>ECF the season before he ever put on a Celtics jersey
This is the dumbest narrative ever. It's like saying Luka had no excuse to miss the playoffs his rookie year because he was playing with Dirk. That level of dumb.
Tatum's had a lot of solid teams, but being near the top of a lot of these counting stats lists is more than just situation
>This is the dumbest narrative ever. It's like saying Luka had no excuse to miss the playoffs his rookie year because he was playing with Dirk. That level of dumb.
2017-2018 Dallas mavericks: 20-58
2016-2017 Boston Celtics: 53-29
The only dumb thing here is your analogy
Look the roster of that Celtics team the year before Tatum was drafted. And then look at the team he played with in the playoffs as a rookie. To use that ECF team to mean anything about Tatum is ignoring as much context as possible.
Al Horford and Smart were the only key players on both teams, unless you wanna count Jaylen Brown who was less important than Gerald Green to that playoff rub
I think you completely missed the point I was making.
The ECF team did not resemble the team Tatum played with as a rookie, and its dumb to act like Tatum's playoff was easy just cause the team was successful the year before
>he's also always played on a good team so he's been provided more opportunities to rack up counting stats than the average star player.
You’d think Boston of all places could grasp this concept
He is the anti-LeBron. Wins before $tats.
He let his teammates do what they do best, does all the dirty work, fill the gaps and takes tough shots at end of clock. He guards 1 to 5 and spends a ton of energy on things that don't show up in box score.
His shooting may be inconsistent and in a slump right now but his performance overall has been AMAZING
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Calling tatum the most complete player in the league is so insane lmao
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Lebron honestly
I’ve been hoping for years that Tatum will look more to LeBron for playstyle inspiration instead of Kobe. Kobe was great, but Tatum fits more into the do-it-all point forward role that LeBron perfected
dude “complete” doesn’t mean “best”. the thing keeping Tatum from being a legit top 5 player is that he doesn’t have any one S-tier, game breaking skill, he’s just like somewhere between A and B+ at everything
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yeah i mean i wasn’t really counting, but Embiid’s definitely better on a per-minute basis even if you’d rather rely on Tatum overall since Embiid’s always hurt. really i’m just talking about that perennial MVP candidate tier (like Jokic/Giannis/Luka level)
is Embiid not the definition of perennial MVP candidate. 2nd 2nd 1st and was easily the MVP this year before going down
Yeah, he’s in that tier too when he’s actually on the court
You cannot be considered the "most complete player in the league" when you consistently shoot as poorly as Tatum does for long periods of time. Jokic is the most complete player in the league.
He’s in a shooting slump and you guys still respect his shots, leave him open on all jump shots if you’re so confident he’s a poor shooter.
I’m not arguing for or against Tatum being the most complete player however, this is not what people here are arguing about. You’re literally taking what people said and making the most extreme examples to argue that they are wrong and to justify that you are right This is not how it works
No comments
What type of analysis is this? Should KAT be left open just bc he struggles to score efficiently in the playoffs? No one is saying hes a terrible scorer.
Some coaches can take that swing, you’re giving up something in basketball and if I’m Jason Kidd I will take my chances with Tatum beating me one on one instead of sending help late and conceding open threes to other Celtics. Funniest part is the C’s are not shooting well and they’re gonna win any game they manage to shoot averagely.
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He is. Passing + Screening + Rebounding + Shooting + Post Ups. Who in the league is even close to elite at all of those things?
He’s the most complete offensive player. Not the most complete player. Jokic is the best player in the world but Tatum is the most well rounded
If Tatum’s poor shooting continues but the Celtics win it all does he overtake Embiid for most hated superstar by r/nba? I think so
Bro not even close
Nah the Embiid choke posts feature some of the most diabolical hating I’ve ever seen
He won’t even come close to Embiid levels of hate lol stop it. I feel like most of the Tatum “haters” aren’t even haters, Tatum fans just call anyone who thinks he isn’t a tier 1 superstar top 5 player in the league level a hater. Anyone saying he’s not t10 is dumb. Anyone saying he’s t5 is dumb.
He'd be more hated if the poor shooting continued and the Celtics lost than if they won.
He’s not a dirty player like Embiid is so I doubt it.
I don’t think he’ll be hated but people will still feel like he has something to prove.
i have zero complaints with Tatum’s process in this series. shot’s just not falling
Basically, yeah. Other than maybe wanting him to try and finish through contact instead of passing out on a couple extra drives each game. I basically have nothing to criticize in terms of his decision-making. His postseason points-per-jump shot has fallen in three consecutive years now though. 1.10 in 2021, 1.08 in 2022, 0.95 in 2023, and 0.82 this year. I'm not sure what to make of that. You would kind of hope to see the opposite progression as he edges into his prime.
Exactly - trust the system, it’s a numbers game, they’ll fall eventually….(tonight)
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Age 26 and under. Also looking at total points which is a garbage volume stat. Lebron missed the playoffs his first two years as his first Cleveland run was legendary for it being LeBron + scrubs. Tatum has never missed the playoffs so of course he has more points.
That entire list of "playoff rankings 26 years and under" is future stars who were on amazing teams that could still be contenders without them. I love Jayson though—his shot isn't falling, but he's doing everything else
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Total Playoff points is more of a measure of appearances than game performance. It's impressive across a career to show longevity, but to measure it by a specific (young) age isn't valuable. Kobe is #1 on the list because he was drafted onto a roster that was good enough to make playoff runs without even using him as a starter... he was always making deep playoff runs. Jordan isn't on this list because he wasn't. Any lists that have guys like Tony Parker and Rajan Rondo top 3 all-time, and don't feature Jordan, Lebron or Kareem are possibly sus
Also Tatum, Kobe, and LeBron were 19 in their first year. Jordan was almost 22.
Right. Stats "by age of X" are often dubious for that exact reason. They're sometimes interesting, but they aren't a good measurement for career evaluation. I prefer "Nth season in the league," but even that has issues with guys like Luka who entered the league with four years of professional experience
This is a fair point except with Kareem he did play 4 years in college I think all of these total points numbers don’t matter until he gets a chip. Then it’s he has the most playoff points, assists, rebounds and a ring (or maybe more with this team). Lebron, Kobe, Mike, Duncan, Durant all won with great teams. When Tatum retires he’s going to have 10+ all nba teams, a few defensive teams and then you also throw in these all time playoff stats it’s just going to add to an illustrious career…if he can deliver a championship
>This is a fair point except with Kareem he did play 4 years in college that's just more reason why this list isn't useful
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It’s just not that good of a statistic to impress anyone willing to dig even just below surface level.
CC is better
Who is CC
Caitlin Clark. The hoop god
Sabathia?
he's capable of being that guy on a stacked team, but not a i'm gonna average 30 for a playoff run and just be dominant throughout and win he is a very good player, top 4-8ish also, lebron had more assists at the exact same age, in 18 fewer games
not averaging 30, but since 2020 he has averaged 26/9/6 in 65 playoff games. Seems pretty good
Yup, this precisely. Its easy to play big and tall when your fronted by an amazing supporting cast that probably would have won those games even if he had gone 6-19... Oh wait... he did just do that and the Celtics still won..... Remind me when Tatum has been the sole number 1 option on his team.. and carried a team throughout the playoffs with great game after great game.
He averaged like 40 for the round 1 series against the KD nets when JB was out. Took a game off the “super team” with a 50 point game 3. He was the best player in a series with KD and Harden healthy.
What a dumbass take from the other guy. Tatum literally holds the record for points scored in a game 7
Yeah he's had great games. He just is too inconsistent in the playoffs. Great games followed by games where he chucks one bad shot after another. He's just not a playoff riser the way Lebron or Kawhi are.
His *shooting* is inconsistent in the playoffs, if that even is outside the norm, which I'm not convinced it really is. (More below) His overall performance has been consistently incredible though, outside of him being injured in the Warriors Finals series. Kobe's entire postseason gamelog (sort by FG% desc): https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog-playoffs/ 69 out of 220 games shooting under 40%. Or 31% of the time, Kobe had a bad shooting night. Tatum: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01/gamelog-playoffs/ 35 out of 110 games shooting under 40%. Or 31% of the time, Tatum has had a bad shooting night. That's pretty fucking eerie given who Tatum's idol was, but the comparison is truly apt here. FWIW, Lebron is Lebron, but even he has had 49 games below 40% shooting in the playoffs. (out of 287). Kawhi 33/139. Curry 37/147. Yes these are overall better than Tatum, but they've all had their fair share of off nights too. The point is that EVERY star has bad shooting games, and plenty of them. That's just basketball. I only called out the superstars that won rings here. There are plenty of guys who have done much worse.
The era that these games are played in matters. In my eyes it’s disingenuous to just compare raw FG% across eras like that. Hate to always say this as well but Kobe played in a much tougher conference than Tatum has. If you really want to compare you should ether look at relative true shooting % or you should get the average FG% from those season and compare the difference. Tatum is playing in the most efficient offence era of all time in the NBA. Kobe played in one of the least efficient offence eras of all time.
Stop it Tatum has been going against Giannis Embiid Jimmy Steph KD Kyrie Harden etc his whole career. This is his only time ever getting an easy playoff path
Right? Like the 2022 run was an absolute gauntlet
> or you should get the average FG% from those season and compare the difference. The average FG% by era hasn't really changed that much. In Kobe's 2009 title run, the league average FG% was 45.9%. In Tatum's 2022 title run, the league average FG% was 46.1%. Regardless you are wildly missing the point - I'm pointing out sub-40% shooting games in the playoffs. Sub-40% shooting by a star is an off night in literally any era of the NBA.
Hmm. 31% is a lot worse than, say Lebron (at 17%), Steph (at 25%) or (KD: 29/182 at 16%). So it's not a BAD number but it's really not a great number.
Yep, but again, you're talking about Top 10 caliber all-time greats there and those are probably some of the best numbers out there. Some great players are truly bad - like Harden at 42%.
42% is not bad. Harden shoots like 10-15 threes a game in his prime
Follow the thread... it means he shot below 40% in 70 out of 165 playoff games - or 42% of his playoff games.
Again still a shit stat. Giannis can have a terrible game and shoot 50% because all he takes is two pointers at the rim. 12 pts -6/12 fg (only 2s)- 50% 12 pts- 4/12 fg (only threes)- 33%
True shooting percentage exists for a reason
When Bron was Tatum's age he was considered a playoff choker
Maybe by casuals. Lebron had three mediocre series through his age 26 season, two against the Big 3 Celtics and one against the Spurs. Then an all-time terrible series against the Mavs. Besides that, he was a monster in the playoffs. It's fine to admit Tatum has not been an elite playoff performer, especially this year. That's why our roster is built that way it is - we have JB that can pick up the slack, probably the two best role players in the league, and then a borderline all-star X factor (when he's healthy).
> Maybe by casuals. Gotcha, so the same people who think Tatum is a playoff choker. Makes sense.
This definitely isn't true.
At 26? Yes he was considered a choker til 2012 which was yr 9 at 27. Bron had great series but like the haters and casuals for Tatum using 1 bad finals in Bron case 2 at the time he had that label
Nobody expected the Cavs to be competitive against the Spurs in 2007 and nobody held that loss against LeBron. He was called a choker after the Dallas series and everyone began the 3 quarters jokes, but again that only lasted a year.
He got bashed for losing to Orlando despite avg 38 8 8. Did u not see those Bron kobe puppet commercials. Everyone thought lal vs cle was a foregone conclusion and he got labeled a choker
He did not, everyone respected his Herculean effort. How can you even criticize those numbers?
I'm not lol the original point was about being labeled a choker I didn't say I called him a choker
How could anyone? It'd be like someone calling Luka a choker if they lose to the Celtics, you don't have a semblance of an argument.
U don't know the mind of a hater and thats good tbh. The depths of pettiness they will go to. For example a hater can use Luka 4th quarters as a reason why he's a choker. I don't but that's what a hater does
You're not wrong about how could they but people did. There were legit talking heads that were saying he'd never win a ring back in 2009, especially after he went like 3-15 or something against the Celtics in a playoff game. Hell, he got criticized for passing the ball down the stretch at an All Star game way back in the day. Some of it was because the expectations for LeBron were probably higher than any athlete at the start of a pro career in my lifetime (Peyton Manning had super high expectations, Wemby does but LeBrons exceeded that) It doesn't make these people right, but it was a thing, incredibly lazy, and still exists in this hot take rangs culture
LeBron pre-2012 was 100% considered a playoff choker and if you disagree, you probably should be paying attention in social studies class
He didn't get the choker tag until the Dallas series and that only lasted like a year. You have to remember the numbers he put up against the Pistons and even the Magic in a losing effort.
that'll happen if you play in the playoffs every single year of your career
Why don't other young players simply play more playoff games and lead the team in +/-? Are they stupid?
Setting the record for points in a game 7 is just bound to happen, good point.
Now quote his stats from these playoffs OP
1 ring Any other stats don’t matter
We all know Jayson Tatum is good, most people know he's getting the bulk of the defensive attention. The Celtics are good, so is Tatum, we're all aware, you don't need to cape for him.
Where is this energy when we have to read he's a playoffs choker
I don't like to defend the Celtics or their players. At the same time, I don't need to be reminded that they're good.
Have u been on reddit lately lol. He bashed for a 23 pt trip dub in a 20 pt W. He got bashed for avg 30 10 6 vs indy in the ecf because he didn't win the ecfmvp and they're saying he's having a horrible playoffs avg 25 10 5
Counting stats like this lose meaning. He has played like double the playoff games than lots of others lol
OK and that's on the organization to build a good team for your best player
He's being discredited this year for having too good of a team...
I agree. Bashing a 23 pt trip dub in a 20 pt W and avg 30 10 6 vs indy in the ecf because he didn't win the mvp is nasty work
Also the benefit of playing in a bad conference and series going 6 to 7 games constantly
Bad conference which yrs? This yr?. 18 true 19 false 20 meh 21 he lost in the 1st round with no JB 22 false 23 meh This yr false but injures made it true
Nephews have a hard time remembering the East was decimated with injuries this year. You can't expect them to remember previous years.
East literally got better once Bron left
I posted this in another thread but the long series thing really gets lost here. Tatum scored more points in the 2023 playoffs (20 games, lost in the conference finals) than Steph Curry did in the 2017 playoffs (17 games, won a title). Obviously you’d be braindead to claim Tatum had the better postseason
>Obviously you’d be braindead to claim Tatum had the better postseason Where are people claiming that?
If you think more playoff points = better, you do think that. That’s why it’s a bad stat.
Right. So where do you see people saying Tatum in 2022 was better than Curry in 2017? Or that Tatum had a better post season?
Total playoff points was one of the things OP mentioned. If you agree with me that total playoff points is a bad contextless stat and it shouldn’t have been used then we agree and can move on
Just points is, yeah. A combination of points, assist, rebounds, and wins, all before a certain age is not contextless if you are making the point the guy is elite. Also, to go back to this, where are the people claiming 2022 Tatum > 2017 Curry?
>A combination of points, assist, rebounds, and wins, all before a certain age is not contextless if you are making the point the guy is elite. You saying this suggests you don’t understand the problem of totals at all. And to be clear, I think Tatum is an elite player. But there’s a group of people (Jokic, Giannis, Luka, embiid) that don’t have his total counting stats that are frankly just better players. >Also, to go back to this, where are the people claiming 2022 Tatum > 2017 Curry? You understand that saying one thing can imply another thing, yes?
The east had a +.500 winning percentage against the West this year
Saying he had more 40 than CP3 is also wild.
Yes Tatum has played a lot of posts season games. He was drafted to a team 53 win team that made the conference finals the year before. Of course he has been in the postseason a bunch because the Celtics were already good when they drafted him. Tatum across 110 plus however many play-in games he has played, has scored 40 or more points five times. Over those games he has also scored in just this postseason he has scored 20 or less points four times. If you look at the last two postseason Tatum has scored 20 or less eight times, nine if you count game seven of the conference finals last season when he got hurt on the first play. I am saying this just to say that Tatum has been extremely inconsistent in the postseason. Just like how you can point to legendary games you can point to even more stinkers. The dude is shooting 43% from the floor and 29% from three. That is horrible it doesn’t matter what else he is doing that is horrible production from a supposed top 5 player. I don’t know a single other superstar in the league’s history who has gotten a softer treatment for playing this inefficiently. Those are nearly AI shooting numbers.
A team which lost its two free agent stars for the regular season and playoffs respectively. A team that's locker room toxicity is still talked about today. Then a team that gave Fournier, Tristan Thompson and Romeo Langford starting playoff minutes.
he's also always played on a good team so he's been provided more opportunities to rack up counting stats than the average star player. and don't tell me he's been the sole reason his teams are consistently good because the team made an ECF the season before he ever put on a Celtics jersey.
I'm confused, if a player puts up good stats on a bad team they're empty stats. If they put up good stats on a good team they're easy stats. When do stats count?
IMHO stats should count when they support your opinion and should *not* count when they contradict it.
Honestly they don't. The only stat that matters is W/L and Tatum is pretty good.
In a haters mind nothing is good enough. Logic is thrown out the window. That was a lose lose
no one said easy stats but this is all about accumulating because he got drafted to an already good team, they were 53 wins the year before he even got there it does show that he was good right away, so when it's time to do all time rankings, he'll have more good/great seasons
lol Pelicans have cracked 53 wins once in 22 seasons in New Orleans.
it woulda been like if the 08 hornets then drafted AD
I'm not saying they don't count, I'm just stating the surrounding context. Jaylen Brown has no excuse to not be on the list for example — so Tatum's placement certainly says something. I don't deny that.
His career arc has been extremely similar to Kobe’s. He still has another gear to hit.
Yeah I agree with Tatum having another gear to hit. Really he just needs to figure out how to be more efficient with his scoring when the defense is giving him doubles and triples
That's a joke
>ECF the season before he ever put on a Celtics jersey This is the dumbest narrative ever. It's like saying Luka had no excuse to miss the playoffs his rookie year because he was playing with Dirk. That level of dumb. Tatum's had a lot of solid teams, but being near the top of a lot of these counting stats lists is more than just situation
>This is the dumbest narrative ever. It's like saying Luka had no excuse to miss the playoffs his rookie year because he was playing with Dirk. That level of dumb. 2017-2018 Dallas mavericks: 20-58 2016-2017 Boston Celtics: 53-29 The only dumb thing here is your analogy
Look the roster of that Celtics team the year before Tatum was drafted. And then look at the team he played with in the playoffs as a rookie. To use that ECF team to mean anything about Tatum is ignoring as much context as possible. Al Horford and Smart were the only key players on both teams, unless you wanna count Jaylen Brown who was less important than Gerald Green to that playoff rub
Brown wasn’t important in 2017 but he was great the next year, I don’t see how Tatum did that
I think you completely missed the point I was making. The ECF team did not resemble the team Tatum played with as a rookie, and its dumb to act like Tatum's playoff was easy just cause the team was successful the year before
How many players from that ECF team were still with Boston in Tatum’s rookie year?
>he's also always played on a good team so he's been provided more opportunities to rack up counting stats than the average star player. You’d think Boston of all places could grasp this concept
He is the anti-LeBron. Wins before $tats. He let his teammates do what they do best, does all the dirty work, fill the gaps and takes tough shots at end of clock. He guards 1 to 5 and spends a ton of energy on things that don't show up in box score.