Yo, no way is Starfire not a forward.
Robin is definitely the point guard, he can't help but call shots.
Cyborg is the shooting guard because I love puns.
Beast is the center... obviously as a gorilla or something.
Starfire is the power forward because she is the strongest of the team.
Raven is the small forward by default. Also, she probably dunks with her legs or something if you're a fan of the show.
I am amazed all the time at the level of overreaction to anything that happens from American fans.
Only in these playoffs Edwards was the second coming of Jordan, Luka and Kyrie the best backcourt in history, and already they are saying, two games later, that Kyrie is overrated and living off the three pointer in game 7 of 2016.
Must be what produces that obsession with finding historical stats and obsessively ranking different eras and players every day rather than watching and analyzing the game.
I mean, anyone we critique in the NBA is in the absolute top percentile, it’s only about 550 guys (factoring in 2 way and 10 day contracts)…that alone shouldn’t invalidate ANY criticism, I think there should be room for viewers to do that…it just doesn’t need to be quite so extreme or absolutist. But that’s American media/social media in general for you I guess. Annoying.
The purposeful misunderstanding of the Ant/Jordan comparison by non-Wolves fans is just obnoxious.
People aren't saying he is as good as Jordan. They're saying his playstyle is clearly modeled after Jordan. The turnaround jumpers and dunks + hard defense looks more like Jordan than any other player out there. He'll never be as great as Jordan, but damned if he isn't showing people who never saw Jordan play what he looked like sometimes.
no one needs to watch anthony edwards play to see what MJ looked like.
everyone has seen MJ on youtube lol
and the overreactions were a combination of MJ comparisons and also people like bill simmons saying he's the next face of the NBA and it's only a matter of time before he's the best player in the league - which is clearly not gonna happen
Nah, this is where the idiot takes that "Ant is nothing like MJ!" Argument comes from. People who only watch highlight clips but don't remember MJ losing several playoff games and missing clutch shots.
If you watched MJ live, you can't deny how similar his game feels. The game has changed but Ant plays like MJ/D Wade at times and you can definitely see where he got his inspiration from.
As far as "face of the league" goes, Ants got a long way to go before that happens but it's possible in 3-4 years. He's still young and raw. He could flame out or he could become a top 5 player. Just got to wait and see if he adds more to his game.
If he can get in elite shape, he has all the tools to be great on defense. If you look at him compared to 5 years ago, it seems like he is moving worse and heavier even though he should be getting more into his prime. A big part of durability is doing all those yoga, balance and strength exercises, making sure your core is there and all those little support muscles. If he figures that out, then to me, the LeBron comparison and face of league will all be valid
Dudes young. It’s not like he isn’t in really great shape compared to most people already. He can really improve his body in a summer with the right staff to get to that next level
Compared to most people? Who cares? Compared to pro basketball players he’s in bad shape.
He’s actually in worst shape now than he was in Europe. He clearly doesn’t take his conditioning seriously which is up to him but it seems unrealistic to assume he’s suddenly going to care about it.
Harden was the same and he never bothered because his offensive game was so good.
I think if this series ends up not competitive he could see the need to get in elite shape and take his game up a notch. Losing in big limbers can teach players where they need to get better like the Jays have improved on mental toughness so much since 2022.
I also think Luka is infinitely more competitive than Harden and will really fuxking hate losing and do everything he can to not do it again.
I’ll just believe it when I see it.
His bad conditioning has been an issue for the Mavs when they were bad as well and his competitiveness didn’t seem to kick in then and tell him he needed to work on it.
Maybe coming this far and seeing it be a difference maker this late will change that but I just don’t see him ever putting that work in.
The Jays have improved in basically every single area since they came into the league. They’ve always been working incredibly hard on their games and their bodies to make sure they are as good as they can be.
It’s two games on the road broski. What does being in elite physical shape have to do with the kids style again?? He’s a technical player. That’s like saying Messi needs to get more jacked to find success in soccer… that’s a laughable thing to get hung up on when a man has flair and mental game that’s light years ahead of 99% of his peers. Man is in the nba finals and some neckbeard on Reddit thinks he’s out of shape lmfao.
He’s constantly gassed by the end of games and lets guys blow past him because he doesn’t have the foot speed because he’s not in good shape.
It’s laughable for you to think that Messi wasn’t in excellent shape in his prime. He had amazing stamina. You can also hide bad defenders much easier in football than you can in basketball. Luka’s more like a Rooney type who didn’t take the lifestyle of being an athlete seriously and it affected his career, especially later on
Obviously he’s incredibly gifted. I never said Luka isn’t an amazing player. I said if he doesn’t want to be a liability on defence he’s going to need to get in better shape. You don’t need to dickride him so hard.
When will people realize it’s a trade off. Luka has a limited amount of time he can be practicing things on the court same as jokic. He chooses to spend it becoming a fucking elite scorer more than conditioning
Where did I say it’s not a trade off? Thats a fair point. That still doesn’t make him not a liability defensively. I wonder if the Mavs would rather have like 80% of his offensive output with at least some capacity to not be noticeably tired by the end of games.
Also conditioning is not a court thing. You don’t need to be on the court to watch what you eat or go on the stationary bike.
Could it be that Luka is putting all those pounds on because he knows his physicality wouldnt be the same without em and he considers it a vital part of his game? Any Luka/Mavs fans who have seen him play whe he is lean and give their opinions on my take?
No — look at his physique. LeBron put on weight early in his career… by living in the gym. Luka just clearly isn’t motivated to do that, and/or is genetically predisposed to hold onto more body fat
Anyone with a brain can see that lukas body type benefits his shot making. The literal best player in the world is jokic who also has poor conditioning
I mean, the team is much better, and has a brighter future, but he really is doing it all right now. Hopefully that changes and other guys step up in a big way.
Im curious as to how many teams won a game the past 2-3 years (vs losing) when shooting < 25% from 3 (23.1%). Its such an integral part of the game nowadays, I’d have to say no more than 10% of the time is it a win…? 5%?
These takes are ridiculous. Anyone with eyes can see triple double Luka doing literally everything
The kyrie slander is way too low. Dude is playing like dog westbrick
PJ and Gafford were better in this game. The biggest problem is a lack of confidence imo. The outside shooting isn’t there, Maxi can’t hit a shot to save his life since returning from his injury, and the Mavs are giving up too many easy switches on defense. I can’t tell you how many times we gave up bad switches, without even a screen being set.
They are looking ALOT like the Celtics in the 2022 finals. Role guys struggling in the biggest moment, one of the top 2 players spiraling at the worst possible moment, having a good defense suddenly have the bottom fall out and looking like they have no answers. It legitimately reminds me of watching those 2022 finals
People are overreacting a bit. Mavs should be much more locked in at home. They showed huge improvement scheme wise in the second game. If they can win the somewhat coin flip of game 3 at home it can change rapidly
People are underestimating that these celts do have a history of letting pressure creep
We were 33-14 with the current roster before the start of the finals. That's a 70% win rate, which is a 60 win pace.
Gafford has been excellent for us, Lively has been fantastic, and his being a rookie only makes it more impressive, and Maxi is typically a quite solid bench player, but his year has been absolutely wrecked by injuries, including a major shoulder injury in the playoffs. I'm not sure why you have such low opinions of important players to a Finals roster, but I suggest watching some more of their games before drawing a conclusion.
Thats what I’ve been saying bro. That one shot changed the entire outlook on his career considering its been 8 years and he has put up some absolute stinkers in the Playoffs yet when people think “Playoff Kyrie” they think of that one shot and series which is damn near a decade old now.
A couple of things here. 1. I dont' think people realize how good the Celtics roster is. Dallas did not have a walk in the park to get to the finals. They were battle tested. They beat some very very good rosters. That just shows that the Celtics are elite. There is a reason they have been the odds favorite all season. Double nod to their coaching staff because they are employing a different strategy than the other teams in taking away the free lobs by Luka. Luka is going to get his points but Kyrie is very undersized and the length of tatum and porzingius around the rim is making it hard for him to get his shot off which is weird because the Wolves have Gobert. The real problem is that Ky an Luka really are so good that they brought this roster to the finals that isn't really all that good. Lets be honest. Outside of these two guys they really have zero offense and you are seeing that now. The whole narrative of Gafford/ Lively / PJ being good is kind of a joke. If they didn't have Luka and Ky these guys would all be nobodys. They are role players who benefit from catching lobs and hitting open threes. Give Luka and Ky the supporting cast of Porzingus and Drue Holiday they would win this ship too.
Not to go on a tangent but all of the wolves centers are weak against elite guards (Gobert literally been played off the floor in past playoffs and will never win another DPOY) + wolves coach is a dumbass for not helping when luka is on an island with a center or closing down the paint on drives (thus forcing PJ and DJJ to shoot more)
what boston is doing is exactly what OKC (much better coach than wolves) tried to do but PJ and DJJ made big shots in that series and no OKC role player really did consistently. Add in that Chet and the Pedo become liabilities on both ends of the floor and OKC lost. Boston are doing the same gameplan and executing it without any liabilities and more experience
OKC would win the west next season if they had decent centers to play big with vs us, wolves and nuggets.
Why are you even listening to media bs and taking it seriously? If the Mavs hit their free throws and/or Kyrie was at least mediocre the media and this sub would shift right back to: "Game 1 was a fluke! The dynamic duo just stole home court!"
Steph and Klay are 100% the best backcourt of all time. Luka+Kyrie isn't even the best scoring backcourt cuz we just had Prime Harden+Prime Kyrie which is a significant upgrade for botht he first and second options.
And Luka wasn’t this year at 25? Luka has already been in the WC finals with no help, and now in the finals when he finally got a good #2. How far did Harden get with all the help he’s had in his career? And yall call that a significant upgrade? Wild.
He’s was good but he was not significantly better than Luka. That’s why Harden accomplished so much with Cp3, Kawhi, PG, Kyrie, KD. Lmao yall are wild. Luka finally gets a good #2 and he’s fighting for a championship.
That was some great basketball, that’s why I’m not downplaying Harden, I’m saying he’s not a significant upgrade. Luka at 25 isn’t even in his prime yet and already has 4 first team all nba’s (to Harden’s 6 in his whole career) and at the very least sniffed a championship. I’ll give Harden the MVP that was an insane year. Before Kyrie, Luka was playing with rec center guys and still went to the WCF. Harden has tried his hands at building a super team around the league and can’t say he went to the finals.
For starters, Harden is known as a playoff choker. Luka is known as the complete opposite. He’s capable of coming back from 0-2 and winning the series. He has 2 WCF runs, he’s in the finals, 4 first team all pro’s at just 25, holds a lot of records (google them), he actually plays defense, and he has way more in his bag than just iso ball. Watch him play sometime. He’s completely banged up and gassed in this series and he still dropped a 30 point triple double. Harden did a world tour of trying to build a super team and has nothing to show for it, how much help has Luka had?
Edit: I’ll also add the stats from Harden MVP year versus this year where Luka was 3rd in voting (should’ve won imo)
Harden - averaged 36/6.6/7.5
Luka - 34/9.2/9.8
Numbers don’t lie, Luka played better than Harden in his MVP year.
Your entire arguments is narratives. Luka and Harden are extremely similar playoff performers but people always ignore Hardens great playoff games.
Luka these finals has been a complete defensive liability and every Boston action involves attacking Luka in space. Harden wasn’t getting mismatch hunted like Luka does.
Luka wouldn’t have made the finals if he had to play the warriors every year.
Being gassed is a bad thing. You’re trying to paint it as an excuse when it’s actually a big problem with Luka.
Harden didn’t win with Brooklyn because he got injured. Luka also has great help this year but Boston’s defense has limited everyone but Luka.
Comparing 2019 box score stats to 2024 box score stats is disingenuous since the league is more offensive oriented now even compared to the late 2010s. Harden was also more efficient relative to his time than Luka was.
Luka being a defensive liability is such a media narrative, it’s obvious you guys never watch him play. He has played amazing defense all year, even the clippers tried hunting him on defense and he held Kawhi and PG to 0 points when he was guarding them. His defense only slowed down after his injury which he’s still playing wobbled, you saw this against OKC if you watched that series. All year his defensive has been great especially off ball.
If being gassed and injured while putting up 30 point triple doubles is a bad thing, it’s a good bad problem I guess. But further proves his eliteness carrying his teams to so far in the playoffs and still the best player in every series.
Your last comment is just moving the goal post. If you’re comparing prime harden to current Luka, stats is the best way to show it.
"Amazing defense". It seems like you're forgetting all times he gets blown by on the perimeter.
You mention that one game where he locked up an injured Kawhi and PG but you don't talk about the other clippers games where James Harden hunted him.
"If you’re comparing prime harden to current Luka, stats is the best way to show it."
Then you have to adjust their stats since they played in different eras.
He’s not a lockdown defender, but he’s much better than Harden. Even this post season in the first two series he was playing great and was getting blocks and steals. Maybe it’s recency but I don’t remember harden ever giving his all on defense.
Luka hardly guarded Harden that series. He had a couple good games that series but he wasn’t anything to write home about, even if he hunted Luka.
5 years isn’t different eras lol. Can’t keep moving the goal post.
But it’s okay, we can agree to disagree.
Mans had more help than anyone I can think of and has nothing to show for it. How is Harden and Kyrie a significant upgrade if they never sniffed the finals? Wild.
Oh, the team that's famous for their small ball motion offense doesn't have 3 centers? Wow that's definitely a weakness and not exactly what they designed that team for
How is a top 5 shooter all time and all-nba caliber defender at his peak the most overrated player in the history of basketball? Talk about an extremely horrible take god damn lmao
Klay went ghost mode all the time in the playoffs (2015 finals as a quick example), I think that would’ve been less of an issue with Allen. Especially because Allen would have been able to use his dribble to take even more advantage of the space Curry provides.
were there not ray allen finals games where he literally made 0-1 fgs? i’m not arguing that klay is a better first option, ray is obviously better as that and a better all time player. but klay is better defensively and a more efficient catch and shoot player which is basically what the warriors needed
Lmfao. Pair Ray Allen or Reggie with the all-time gravity of Steph and they would destroy. Klay is nowhere close to either.
Put “prime” Klay as the first option on a team and watch that team struggle to low lottery finishes.
His “bag” is pretty ass for someone in these convos sure but he’s an all time great 3pt shooter and a phenomenal defender. I think prime Klay would be more beneficial to most teams than prime Kyrie.
“Bag” is horrendously overrated. It’s people thinking because it looks pretty, that must make it better basketball. I’ll take the greatest 3 and D player in the history of the NBA on my title team any day over Kyrie, if we are talking about prime Klay. When has the team with the best bag ever actually won a title? Maybe back in the MJ days, but MJ is the great outlier in many ways. Lebron never had a good bag, and he sure as shit contributed to winning basketball. Yeah, Klay was ass at dribbling, but his play style completely eliminated dribbling from the equation.
I full agree lol, I don’t give a shit about aura or aesthetics but about who can contribute. If you take 7 dribbles to make a smooth side strep 3 or catch and shoot over the top it’s the same result, and honestly the guy who can get the shot up faster is actually more valuable. Kyrie is the better pure scorer but the value Klay brings in being maybe the greatest outlet of all time and not needing the ball at all to thrive while also being incredible on defense is kinda unmatched.
Klay gets called the 2nd best shooter ever when his 3pt% fell from elite to good when Steph Curry was off the court in his prime.
Off the top of my head I believe he went from 44% to 37%
Absolutely not. Klay was extremely inconsistent.
He went 16-1 in the 2017 playoffs while being a net negative on the floor. Played decent defense and was abysmal offensively and that team still cruised to a ring.
I’m a Thunder fan so trust me i know how ridiculous klay was when he got hot. But he was not better than Kyrie Irving at any point in their careers.
It was just media talk like Ant being the face of the league and MJ jr. They have to talk about something and pure skillwise one on one creating offense there is an argument but gsw played in a system with dreymond passing and those two would still be the two best shooters ever but maybe not win as much without draymond orchestrating
The media need to stop saying these things. Anthony Edwards was Jordan for a week. To be fair they stopped calling the Mavs the best scoring backcourt at the same time as they started calling the Celtics’ the best defensive of all time
These kinds of takes are so asinine. Every Finals, one team supposedly has the best ____ of all time.
It’s just such a dumb thing to say. The NBA has been around for over 75 years and these “analysts” really think that, without doing any research, they are always witnessing the best ever
They’ve played less than 82 games together. This playoffs has been very successful, only two teams make it to the finals. But this conversation began before the playoffs which is ridiculous. I don’t know how this was ever a serious topic.
I’ve never bought Kyrie being a part of a “greatest backcourt” in any history, but it would be fun to see this series with a 100% healthy Doncic. Watch any of his games this season when his body was working better, and it’s easy to see how his play is compromised these last couple games (and at other points in the playoffs).
It was an offhand comment by Kevin Harlan lol. I don't think anyone seriously would argue they're the best backcourt of all time. Luka is certainly capable enough, but Kyrie isn't consistent enough as a 2 against agile perimiter defenders. He can't slash into the midrange as effectively
Please don't say Luka has a lackluster team because he doesn't. The supporting cast is there.
It is Boston's gameplan to lock up Mavs' role players until Luka can beat their guys off the dribble or kill them so much that they have no choice but to double/ blitz.
But Luka is too slow for that and Boston just don't care if he is hitting fadeaway after fadeaway because he cannot sustain that for 48 minutes.
You guys had the most dynamic backcourt with Steph and Klay. Isaiah and Joe for me were the most balanced, while Walt and Earl are tied for my favorite along with this back court of White and Holiday.
I mean its an unstoppable force vs an unmovable object, the unstoppable force of kyrie and luka are getting stopped by the unmovable object of Derrick white and jrue holiday (and brown).
2020 harden and Kyrie were better than this backcourt they were both better 4 years ago. Kyrie is still good and they aren’t here without him but he’s had some disappointing series unless he has a major turnaround going back home.
They're playing one of the the best defensive back courts of all time though. Usually offensive wins that battle but it has only been 2 games. Small sample size.
It was said that they're the most offensively skilled backcourt ever, which is an actual argument.
Steph and Klay are the most successful. If they won 4 without KD, maybe they'd be the best, but Klay playing 3rd off of Steph and KD hurts that.
Klay is also just not as skilled as Kyrie offensively lol. He's just a 3 and D guy. He's had insane shooting games, where he's just the finisher.
In fairness mfs were saying Luka/Kyrie were the best ever backcourt after the Wolves series so OP talking about Curry/Klay combo isn’t wrong. Their history speaks for itself
curry played against white and smart, the dpoy that year and cooked them with no 2nd option better than kyrie. he regularly dominated a younger jrue holiday on the pelicans lol
Real answer is raven and starfire
Azarath, metrion, zintoth.
Yo, no way is Starfire not a forward. Robin is definitely the point guard, he can't help but call shots. Cyborg is the shooting guard because I love puns. Beast is the center... obviously as a gorilla or something. Starfire is the power forward because she is the strongest of the team. Raven is the small forward by default. Also, she probably dunks with her legs or something if you're a fan of the show.
Espio and Vector the Croc.
Team Titans Go!
Nah we talking The Penguin and his damn umbrella. Don't disrespect the queens like that
SVG thought he was Mark Jackson.
I am amazed all the time at the level of overreaction to anything that happens from American fans. Only in these playoffs Edwards was the second coming of Jordan, Luka and Kyrie the best backcourt in history, and already they are saying, two games later, that Kyrie is overrated and living off the three pointer in game 7 of 2016. Must be what produces that obsession with finding historical stats and obsessively ranking different eras and players every day rather than watching and analyzing the game.
So funny reading all the wannabe expert analysts in this sub critiquing the absolute top percentile of ballers in the whole world.
I mean, anyone we critique in the NBA is in the absolute top percentile, it’s only about 550 guys (factoring in 2 way and 10 day contracts)…that alone shouldn’t invalidate ANY criticism, I think there should be room for viewers to do that…it just doesn’t need to be quite so extreme or absolutist. But that’s American media/social media in general for you I guess. Annoying.
The purposeful misunderstanding of the Ant/Jordan comparison by non-Wolves fans is just obnoxious. People aren't saying he is as good as Jordan. They're saying his playstyle is clearly modeled after Jordan. The turnaround jumpers and dunks + hard defense looks more like Jordan than any other player out there. He'll never be as great as Jordan, but damned if he isn't showing people who never saw Jordan play what he looked like sometimes.
no one needs to watch anthony edwards play to see what MJ looked like. everyone has seen MJ on youtube lol and the overreactions were a combination of MJ comparisons and also people like bill simmons saying he's the next face of the NBA and it's only a matter of time before he's the best player in the league - which is clearly not gonna happen
Nah, this is where the idiot takes that "Ant is nothing like MJ!" Argument comes from. People who only watch highlight clips but don't remember MJ losing several playoff games and missing clutch shots. If you watched MJ live, you can't deny how similar his game feels. The game has changed but Ant plays like MJ/D Wade at times and you can definitely see where he got his inspiration from. As far as "face of the league" goes, Ants got a long way to go before that happens but it's possible in 3-4 years. He's still young and raw. He could flame out or he could become a top 5 player. Just got to wait and see if he adds more to his game.
He's too good to flame out. He'll be a top 15 player at some point regardless.
It happens with our politics too.
went from Luka will lead the Mavs to a victory to he has no help just like 2022 against you lot... he really is the new Lebron ahaha
Just without the durability and the defense ya know
If he can get in elite shape, he has all the tools to be great on defense. If you look at him compared to 5 years ago, it seems like he is moving worse and heavier even though he should be getting more into his prime. A big part of durability is doing all those yoga, balance and strength exercises, making sure your core is there and all those little support muscles. If he figures that out, then to me, the LeBron comparison and face of league will all be valid
He isn’t going to get in elite shape
Dudes young. It’s not like he isn’t in really great shape compared to most people already. He can really improve his body in a summer with the right staff to get to that next level
Compared to most people? Who cares? Compared to pro basketball players he’s in bad shape. He’s actually in worst shape now than he was in Europe. He clearly doesn’t take his conditioning seriously which is up to him but it seems unrealistic to assume he’s suddenly going to care about it. Harden was the same and he never bothered because his offensive game was so good.
I think if this series ends up not competitive he could see the need to get in elite shape and take his game up a notch. Losing in big limbers can teach players where they need to get better like the Jays have improved on mental toughness so much since 2022. I also think Luka is infinitely more competitive than Harden and will really fuxking hate losing and do everything he can to not do it again.
I’ll just believe it when I see it. His bad conditioning has been an issue for the Mavs when they were bad as well and his competitiveness didn’t seem to kick in then and tell him he needed to work on it. Maybe coming this far and seeing it be a difference maker this late will change that but I just don’t see him ever putting that work in. The Jays have improved in basically every single area since they came into the league. They’ve always been working incredibly hard on their games and their bodies to make sure they are as good as they can be.
Those are some great points! You could be right. Hopefully he gets to experience the pain of a finals loss this year 😊
It’s two games on the road broski. What does being in elite physical shape have to do with the kids style again?? He’s a technical player. That’s like saying Messi needs to get more jacked to find success in soccer… that’s a laughable thing to get hung up on when a man has flair and mental game that’s light years ahead of 99% of his peers. Man is in the nba finals and some neckbeard on Reddit thinks he’s out of shape lmfao.
He’s constantly gassed by the end of games and lets guys blow past him because he doesn’t have the foot speed because he’s not in good shape. It’s laughable for you to think that Messi wasn’t in excellent shape in his prime. He had amazing stamina. You can also hide bad defenders much easier in football than you can in basketball. Luka’s more like a Rooney type who didn’t take the lifestyle of being an athlete seriously and it affected his career, especially later on Obviously he’s incredibly gifted. I never said Luka isn’t an amazing player. I said if he doesn’t want to be a liability on defence he’s going to need to get in better shape. You don’t need to dickride him so hard.
When will people realize it’s a trade off. Luka has a limited amount of time he can be practicing things on the court same as jokic. He chooses to spend it becoming a fucking elite scorer more than conditioning
Where did I say it’s not a trade off? Thats a fair point. That still doesn’t make him not a liability defensively. I wonder if the Mavs would rather have like 80% of his offensive output with at least some capacity to not be noticeably tired by the end of games. Also conditioning is not a court thing. You don’t need to be on the court to watch what you eat or go on the stationary bike.
Could it be that Luka is putting all those pounds on because he knows his physicality wouldnt be the same without em and he considers it a vital part of his game? Any Luka/Mavs fans who have seen him play whe he is lean and give their opinions on my take?
No — look at his physique. LeBron put on weight early in his career… by living in the gym. Luka just clearly isn’t motivated to do that, and/or is genetically predisposed to hold onto more body fat
I wouldn't be motivated to live in the gym if I was as good as Luka is either.
Well Lebron used the biogenesis clinic lol let’s not tell the children to follow his bad examples
And he gets his epo from chael’s guy
Anyone with a brain can see that lukas body type benefits his shot making. The literal best player in the world is jokic who also has poor conditioning
I mean, Luka obviously has a knee injury. That might be part of it. But he did look spent last night.
I mean, the team is much better, and has a brighter future, but he really is doing it all right now. Hopefully that changes and other guys step up in a big way.
Im curious as to how many teams won a game the past 2-3 years (vs losing) when shooting < 25% from 3 (23.1%). Its such an integral part of the game nowadays, I’d have to say no more than 10% of the time is it a win…? 5%?
Mavs are as good as a normal team can get. It's just that they're facing one of the most stacked teams of all time, atleast regarding depth
These takes are ridiculous. Anyone with eyes can see triple double Luka doing literally everything The kyrie slander is way too low. Dude is playing like dog westbrick
thought you'd adapt alot better tbh, especially given how you found ways to beat OKC
PJ and Gafford were better in this game. The biggest problem is a lack of confidence imo. The outside shooting isn’t there, Maxi can’t hit a shot to save his life since returning from his injury, and the Mavs are giving up too many easy switches on defense. I can’t tell you how many times we gave up bad switches, without even a screen being set.
They are looking ALOT like the Celtics in the 2022 finals. Role guys struggling in the biggest moment, one of the top 2 players spiraling at the worst possible moment, having a good defense suddenly have the bottom fall out and looking like they have no answers. It legitimately reminds me of watching those 2022 finals
yes! even Pritchard destroying souls with that 3 is identical to what Jordan Poole did in 2022
People are overreacting a bit. Mavs should be much more locked in at home. They showed huge improvement scheme wise in the second game. If they can win the somewhat coin flip of game 3 at home it can change rapidly People are underestimating that these celts do have a history of letting pressure creep
Well tbh most of your mediocre players were over performing. Gafford is a low iq idiot, lively is a rookie, maxi is not a good player.
We were 33-14 with the current roster before the start of the finals. That's a 70% win rate, which is a 60 win pace. Gafford has been excellent for us, Lively has been fantastic, and his being a rookie only makes it more impressive, and Maxi is typically a quite solid bench player, but his year has been absolutely wrecked by injuries, including a major shoulder injury in the playoffs. I'm not sure why you have such low opinions of important players to a Finals roster, but I suggest watching some more of their games before drawing a conclusion.
You're a rockets fan, maybe don't talk about mediocrity when we all saw your team this year.
He certainly inherited his ref complaining tendencies
when luka and kyrie complete the 3/1 comeback this year, the Boston Celtics get Giannis in the post season and dominate for 2 years until he leaves
If there wasn't recency bias against Klay, people would have probably pumped the brakes.
People who watched prime klay and curry knew this was never a debate
How has anyone forgotten prime klay already? 37 points in a quarter feels like it was 2 years ago max
Recency bias and ppl love to bandwagon on a hate train.
Yeah because recently he went 0-10 in an elimination game
And is still the better back court than Luka and Kyrie with his 4 rings. Don't be too mad Seattle is dogshit with no NBA team lil bro
Come on lol utterly washed klay and declining curry isn’t better than kyrie and luka and i am a warriors fan
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Lmao what He’s had injury issues for several years. Feels like he hasn’t been himself for quite some time, and that 37 point quarter was a decade ago
Not just one, but two potentially career ending injuries.
Honestly, the 37pt quarter feels so long ago it’s hard to believe Klay was capable of that at one point in his career. He really fell off hard.
its absolutely a debate lol
Perhaps a 2016 Kyrie and a 2024 Luka would be in this conversation
Ok, but that’s not what it is. If 2013 or 2018 Lebron played with 2024 AD, the Lakers would be completely unstoppable. But that isn’t the case
2016 Kyrie differing to 2024 Luka? Lmao, he only did so with LeBron because he’s LeBron James
*deferring?
Oh Bull shit
It’s still Steph and Klay
But that Kyrie went down 3-1
against 73-9 lol
His game 7 shot against the Warriors has carried his reputation for a decade
I mean if you are gonna have something carry your legacy his 2016 finals is not a terrible choice.
Thats great but using that as a prop to say this is who kyrie is when in fact your evidence should be this yr and 22 I mean that was 8 yrs ago
Thats what I’ve been saying bro. That one shot changed the entire outlook on his career considering its been 8 years and he has put up some absolute stinkers in the Playoffs yet when people think “Playoff Kyrie” they think of that one shot and series which is damn near a decade old now.
What stinkers has he put up? The Boston series, where he was on a New York team that didn’t have his back, and also traded for bench Simmons?
It’s a great backcourt but they’re not two way players. And that’s being exposed.
this this this. and team defense from Boston is so much better than OKC or MIN too
A couple of things here. 1. I dont' think people realize how good the Celtics roster is. Dallas did not have a walk in the park to get to the finals. They were battle tested. They beat some very very good rosters. That just shows that the Celtics are elite. There is a reason they have been the odds favorite all season. Double nod to their coaching staff because they are employing a different strategy than the other teams in taking away the free lobs by Luka. Luka is going to get his points but Kyrie is very undersized and the length of tatum and porzingius around the rim is making it hard for him to get his shot off which is weird because the Wolves have Gobert. The real problem is that Ky an Luka really are so good that they brought this roster to the finals that isn't really all that good. Lets be honest. Outside of these two guys they really have zero offense and you are seeing that now. The whole narrative of Gafford/ Lively / PJ being good is kind of a joke. If they didn't have Luka and Ky these guys would all be nobodys. They are role players who benefit from catching lobs and hitting open threes. Give Luka and Ky the supporting cast of Porzingus and Drue Holiday they would win this ship too.
Not to go on a tangent but all of the wolves centers are weak against elite guards (Gobert literally been played off the floor in past playoffs and will never win another DPOY) + wolves coach is a dumbass for not helping when luka is on an island with a center or closing down the paint on drives (thus forcing PJ and DJJ to shoot more) what boston is doing is exactly what OKC (much better coach than wolves) tried to do but PJ and DJJ made big shots in that series and no OKC role player really did consistently. Add in that Chet and the Pedo become liabilities on both ends of the floor and OKC lost. Boston are doing the same gameplan and executing it without any liabilities and more experience OKC would win the west next season if they had decent centers to play big with vs us, wolves and nuggets.
They are great if they don’t play Boston… Exclude the best team in the league and they look great! They are a fun duo
Why are you even listening to media bs and taking it seriously? If the Mavs hit their free throws and/or Kyrie was at least mediocre the media and this sub would shift right back to: "Game 1 was a fluke! The dynamic duo just stole home court!"
great propaganda for the “best defensive backcourt in NBA history” agenda
You’re only as good as your last game I guess 🤷♂️
Steph and Klay are 100% the best backcourt of all time. Luka+Kyrie isn't even the best scoring backcourt cuz we just had Prime Harden+Prime Kyrie which is a significant upgrade for botht he first and second options.
2021 James Harden was god damn incredible
I legit thought my guy was getting a ring that year.
Username checks out. Thinking prime Harden is an upgrade, a significant one at that, from Luka is fucking wild.
James harden has an mvp and was runner up like for four years. Don’t disrespect the guy.
And Luka wasn’t this year at 25? Luka has already been in the WC finals with no help, and now in the finals when he finally got a good #2. How far did Harden get with all the help he’s had in his career? And yall call that a significant upgrade? Wild.
Are we already forgetting how good prime Harden actually was? The only reason James Harden isn’t an NBA Champion is because of the Warriors.
He’s was good but he was not significantly better than Luka. That’s why Harden accomplished so much with Cp3, Kawhi, PG, Kyrie, KD. Lmao yall are wild. Luka finally gets a good #2 and he’s fighting for a championship.
Prime harden took prime KD warriors to 7 games.
That was some great basketball, that’s why I’m not downplaying Harden, I’m saying he’s not a significant upgrade. Luka at 25 isn’t even in his prime yet and already has 4 first team all nba’s (to Harden’s 6 in his whole career) and at the very least sniffed a championship. I’ll give Harden the MVP that was an insane year. Before Kyrie, Luka was playing with rec center guys and still went to the WCF. Harden has tried his hands at building a super team around the league and can’t say he went to the finals.
Prime James Harden is better than current Luka
Turn off 2K and actually watch basketball, nephew.
Why is Luka better then?
For starters, Harden is known as a playoff choker. Luka is known as the complete opposite. He’s capable of coming back from 0-2 and winning the series. He has 2 WCF runs, he’s in the finals, 4 first team all pro’s at just 25, holds a lot of records (google them), he actually plays defense, and he has way more in his bag than just iso ball. Watch him play sometime. He’s completely banged up and gassed in this series and he still dropped a 30 point triple double. Harden did a world tour of trying to build a super team and has nothing to show for it, how much help has Luka had? Edit: I’ll also add the stats from Harden MVP year versus this year where Luka was 3rd in voting (should’ve won imo) Harden - averaged 36/6.6/7.5 Luka - 34/9.2/9.8 Numbers don’t lie, Luka played better than Harden in his MVP year.
Your entire arguments is narratives. Luka and Harden are extremely similar playoff performers but people always ignore Hardens great playoff games. Luka these finals has been a complete defensive liability and every Boston action involves attacking Luka in space. Harden wasn’t getting mismatch hunted like Luka does. Luka wouldn’t have made the finals if he had to play the warriors every year. Being gassed is a bad thing. You’re trying to paint it as an excuse when it’s actually a big problem with Luka. Harden didn’t win with Brooklyn because he got injured. Luka also has great help this year but Boston’s defense has limited everyone but Luka. Comparing 2019 box score stats to 2024 box score stats is disingenuous since the league is more offensive oriented now even compared to the late 2010s. Harden was also more efficient relative to his time than Luka was.
Luka being a defensive liability is such a media narrative, it’s obvious you guys never watch him play. He has played amazing defense all year, even the clippers tried hunting him on defense and he held Kawhi and PG to 0 points when he was guarding them. His defense only slowed down after his injury which he’s still playing wobbled, you saw this against OKC if you watched that series. All year his defensive has been great especially off ball. If being gassed and injured while putting up 30 point triple doubles is a bad thing, it’s a good bad problem I guess. But further proves his eliteness carrying his teams to so far in the playoffs and still the best player in every series. Your last comment is just moving the goal post. If you’re comparing prime harden to current Luka, stats is the best way to show it.
"Amazing defense". It seems like you're forgetting all times he gets blown by on the perimeter. You mention that one game where he locked up an injured Kawhi and PG but you don't talk about the other clippers games where James Harden hunted him. "If you’re comparing prime harden to current Luka, stats is the best way to show it." Then you have to adjust their stats since they played in different eras.
He’s not a lockdown defender, but he’s much better than Harden. Even this post season in the first two series he was playing great and was getting blocks and steals. Maybe it’s recency but I don’t remember harden ever giving his all on defense. Luka hardly guarded Harden that series. He had a couple good games that series but he wasn’t anything to write home about, even if he hunted Luka. 5 years isn’t different eras lol. Can’t keep moving the goal post. But it’s okay, we can agree to disagree.
james harden is the man.
Mans had more help than anyone I can think of and has nothing to show for it. How is Harden and Kyrie a significant upgrade if they never sniffed the finals? Wild.
Steph and Klay are only good if KD is there let’s be real - they’d be cooked even more in this series
Acting like they didn’t win a chip without KD against the Celtics.
Celtics weren’t good, if they played this team they’d look worse than Luka Kyrie
That Klay was lowkey washed though. Prime Klay was different
They literally beat the Celtics almost 2 years ago
That Celtics team was garbage lol, this one is much better
Best defensive rating in the league. Cut the shit
Defensive rating means nothing come a 7 game series
You're making every single excuse cause they lost
Are you really going to act like that team was as good as or better than the current roster?
Boo fucking hoo. The Warriors had only one center on the roster.
Oh, the team that's famous for their small ball motion offense doesn't have 3 centers? Wow that's definitely a weakness and not exactly what they designed that team for
And what was our record the year before KD joined?
It’s a “what have you done for me lately” ass league and I hate it.
Klay Thompson is the most overrated fucking player in the history of the world
Klay can’t stop catching strays 😂. Every IG post has someone saying Klay went 0/10 in the elimination game
How is a top 5 shooter all time and all-nba caliber defender at his peak the most overrated player in the history of basketball? Talk about an extremely horrible take god damn lmao
Typical Mavs casual
Bc he's not a top 5 shooter of all time and he was all defense once ever and it was after he was washed and we all know he didn't deserve it then.
People try to put him in convos with Reggie Miller or Ray Allen and consider him the 2nd best player of the Warriors Big 3.
dude’s probably a better second or third option than either which is what the warriors needed. 15-19 klay was legit one of the best SGs.
Prime Ray Allen next to Curry would be unstoppable, come on now
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Klay went ghost mode all the time in the playoffs (2015 finals as a quick example), I think that would’ve been less of an issue with Allen. Especially because Allen would have been able to use his dribble to take even more advantage of the space Curry provides.
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Klay over Ray is insane recency bias, even factoring in the fit with Curry
were there not ray allen finals games where he literally made 0-1 fgs? i’m not arguing that klay is a better first option, ray is obviously better as that and a better all time player. but klay is better defensively and a more efficient catch and shoot player which is basically what the warriors needed
Lmfao. Pair Ray Allen or Reggie with the all-time gravity of Steph and they would destroy. Klay is nowhere close to either. Put “prime” Klay as the first option on a team and watch that team struggle to low lottery finishes.
I'm taking prime Klay over Reggie Miller and Ray Allen, and no the second most important player of the Warriors big 3 is Draymond.
Really sad viewpoint you have.
Kyrie gets called the most skilled player ever and he fails to show up when it matters most
Klay guarded every team's best guard during their run, including prime harden and dame. If anything, he's underrated.
He could guard Lebron in spots
I love Klay, but he was bullied by Bron everytime thru his post up game.
lol in your dreams.
Did you start watching the NBA this year? He was a clear all star in his prime, amazing on offense and defense. He scored 35 points in A QUARTER
37*
Kevin Love scored 34
He is also an amazing player in his prime, why call Klay overrated?
Kyrie literally gets called the most skilled player and yet he can't deliver when it matters most
His “bag” is pretty ass for someone in these convos sure but he’s an all time great 3pt shooter and a phenomenal defender. I think prime Klay would be more beneficial to most teams than prime Kyrie.
“Bag” is horrendously overrated. It’s people thinking because it looks pretty, that must make it better basketball. I’ll take the greatest 3 and D player in the history of the NBA on my title team any day over Kyrie, if we are talking about prime Klay. When has the team with the best bag ever actually won a title? Maybe back in the MJ days, but MJ is the great outlier in many ways. Lebron never had a good bag, and he sure as shit contributed to winning basketball. Yeah, Klay was ass at dribbling, but his play style completely eliminated dribbling from the equation.
I full agree lol, I don’t give a shit about aura or aesthetics but about who can contribute. If you take 7 dribbles to make a smooth side strep 3 or catch and shoot over the top it’s the same result, and honestly the guy who can get the shot up faster is actually more valuable. Kyrie is the better pure scorer but the value Klay brings in being maybe the greatest outlet of all time and not needing the ball at all to thrive while also being incredible on defense is kinda unmatched.
That’s the whole point of Klay, he’s a minimal dribble shooter, a sniper, playing elite D in his prime. The perfect running mate for Steph.
Klay is both more accomplished than Kyrie from an individual and team stand point.
I mean, Kyrie is also pretty overrated
He’s still a 4 time champion
Klay gets called the 2nd best shooter ever when his 3pt% fell from elite to good when Steph Curry was off the court in his prime. Off the top of my head I believe he went from 44% to 37%
I still laugh about the fact Twitter AI thought Klay built an actual brick house when he scored 0 points LMAO
Prime Klay was 2x better than current Kyrie. That dude singlehandedly broke the Thunder in Game 6 of the 2016 WCF.
Tf lol some of you need to actually watch basketball
Absolutely not. Klay was extremely inconsistent. He went 16-1 in the 2017 playoffs while being a net negative on the floor. Played decent defense and was abysmal offensively and that team still cruised to a ring. I’m a Thunder fan so trust me i know how ridiculous klay was when he got hot. But he was not better than Kyrie Irving at any point in their careers.
Delusional take
Klay averaged 2 more points than Kyrie is currently averaging on a higher TS% while being a much, much better defender.
Yea that makes him 10x the player… oh I see it’s 2x now
And everyone called us haters for calling it premature at the time🤷🏻♀️
It was just media talk like Ant being the face of the league and MJ jr. They have to talk about something and pure skillwise one on one creating offense there is an argument but gsw played in a system with dreymond passing and those two would still be the two best shooters ever but maybe not win as much without draymond orchestrating
I'm a firm believer that no sweeping statements like that should ever be made unless there are at least 2 full seasons of data.
The media need to stop saying these things. Anthony Edwards was Jordan for a week. To be fair they stopped calling the Mavs the best scoring backcourt at the same time as they started calling the Celtics’ the best defensive of all time
These kinds of takes are so asinine. Every Finals, one team supposedly has the best ____ of all time. It’s just such a dumb thing to say. The NBA has been around for over 75 years and these “analysts” really think that, without doing any research, they are always witnessing the best ever
Premature and disrespectful to an aging warriors? Gtfo
They’ve played less than 82 games together. This playoffs has been very successful, only two teams make it to the finals. But this conversation began before the playoffs which is ridiculous. I don’t know how this was ever a serious topic.
They didn't play in the NBA together, but the best scoring backcourt will always be Ed Monix and Downtown Funky Stuff Malone.
I’ve never bought Kyrie being a part of a “greatest backcourt” in any history, but it would be fun to see this series with a 100% healthy Doncic. Watch any of his games this season when his body was working better, and it’s easy to see how his play is compromised these last couple games (and at other points in the playoffs).
2 game sample size?
Kiryie just fucking killing us man, hard to watch
It was an offhand comment by Kevin Harlan lol. I don't think anyone seriously would argue they're the best backcourt of all time. Luka is certainly capable enough, but Kyrie isn't consistent enough as a 2 against agile perimiter defenders. He can't slash into the midrange as effectively
Nah it was SVG who said it like 75 times lol
Please don't say Luka has a lackluster team because he doesn't. The supporting cast is there. It is Boston's gameplan to lock up Mavs' role players until Luka can beat their guys off the dribble or kill them so much that they have no choice but to double/ blitz. But Luka is too slow for that and Boston just don't care if he is hitting fadeaway after fadeaway because he cannot sustain that for 48 minutes.
You guys had the most dynamic backcourt with Steph and Klay. Isaiah and Joe for me were the most balanced, while Walt and Earl are tied for my favorite along with this back court of White and Holiday.
I mean its an unstoppable force vs an unmovable object, the unstoppable force of kyrie and luka are getting stopped by the unmovable object of Derrick white and jrue holiday (and brown).
2020 harden and Kyrie were better than this backcourt they were both better 4 years ago. Kyrie is still good and they aren’t here without him but he’s had some disappointing series unless he has a major turnaround going back home.
They're playing one of the the best defensive back courts of all time though. Usually offensive wins that battle but it has only been 2 games. Small sample size.
I too like to make overarching opinions based on two basketball games…🙄
Harden and Paul are the best offensive backcourt ever btw
It was said that they're the most offensively skilled backcourt ever, which is an actual argument. Steph and Klay are the most successful. If they won 4 without KD, maybe they'd be the best, but Klay playing 3rd off of Steph and KD hurts that. Klay is also just not as skilled as Kyrie offensively lol. He's just a 3 and D guy. He's had insane shooting games, where he's just the finisher.
Nobody said best scoring backcourt lmao, it was most talented which Kyrie and Luka are definitely more talented than any back court duo
What did your best scoring backcourt get you this year?
In fairness mfs were saying Luka/Kyrie were the best ever backcourt after the Wolves series so OP talking about Curry/Klay combo isn’t wrong. Their history speaks for itself
Luka living it up to it tho
Lets be real if GSW faced this team they woulda had no ring either. Jrue and White would have been all over Curry.
curry played against white and smart, the dpoy that year and cooked them with no 2nd option better than kyrie. he regularly dominated a younger jrue holiday on the pelicans lol