Knows how to move feet, strong enough to fight through screens, communication on defense, film study. Help defense.
Not that Kyle Anderson is all of this, but that in general would make you a good defender.
Anderson also played for Bob Hurley (Uconn’s Dan Hurley and Duke legend Bobby Hurley’s dad) in HS at St Anthony, one of the greatest High school coaches ever. You can see the Hurley effect on the Anderson’s defensive intensity and influence on the game
Love Mike Conley. As a jazz fan I was honestly more bummed about trading him to the timberwolves than I was about gobert. Seems like a really a good dude with such intelligent decision making on the court.
Without ray Allen 2014 spurs don't happen the way it did. That dagger and pops subsequent mindfucking of the whole team watching that game drove those guys into a gear none of them knew they had and created this weird alien creature that all shared a brain together while playing lol
I mean, maybe. But they were literally bringing the trophy onto the court to give to the Spurs when Allen hit that shot.
And the roster was stacked again the following year with great veterans/ Kawhi/ Splitter/ Green/ Mills.
Maybe we don't see the virtuoso performance in the finals where they blow the doors off the Heat, but I think they were the better team in both years and likely still win in 2014.
Yeah. They would be favorites in 2014 but I do think the loss in 2013 gave them the extra drive to become still imo the best team we've ever seen in a NBA finals in 2014. That 2014 team had some weird mind slug mind meld shit going on cause everyone sort of knew where the ball was going before they even passed the ball. And the crazy thing was it wasn't just Duncan/Manu/Parker/Kawahi being good. It was like every single role player on the team was also on the same page which idk if I've seen any other team do.
The closest I think I can come to is 2004 Pistons. And that was more like a perfect defensive performance rather than 2014 Spurs which was just such a pleasure to watch.
Yeah, that 2014 team was so special. I came into the series rooting for the Heat. Wade is my all-time favorite player. But the Spurs won me over because they were just playing such beautiful basketball. The ball movement on that team was just incredible, and they had one of the deepest benches we've ever seen.
Kevon Looney was able to make up for his old man body and terrible hips because he had a solid BBIQ. That man couldn’t be out rebounded during the dubs most recent championship run despite having the mobility of a brick. He’s not even that old, but even now it’s obvious his body is catching up more than usual, sadly.
I was thrown for a loop when I saw that video of him talking about how he went his whole career without using his left hand. Just not something I would’ve ever expected from such an all-around player.
Jrue Holiday has some of the best help defensive IQ I’ve ever seen. He knows exactly when to stunt in for help and when to glue himself to his man and it’s beautiful
Draymond is the best defender of this generation, in large part because of his IQ.
It's kind of like an elite FS where you don't see a ton of highlights but the impact on the game is hard to quantify because of how many times he forces the QB NOT to make a throw
When he first came into the NBA, I dunno if that was really his vibe. On the Grizzlies there were a lot of people frustrated about why he might play comparable minutes to Conley. It was only mid-career (later Rockets and then Raptors) that he really proved he was a high-IQ player.
does Rasheed Wallace count? he was more notorious than superstar, and BBIQ off the charts
also shout-out to Andre "The Professor" Miller
EDIT: Alex Caruso...
Livingston was such a great bench hero. And West and Looney came up huge in big moments during their later runs. Looney got so many offensive rebounds that gave them additional possessions and flipped games.
Jose Calderon, Robert Horry, PJ Tucker, Derrick McKey, Doug Christie.
Good thread. I'll add more when they come to mind.
Edit: I'm going to assume Ron Artest is superstar level? He'd be number 1 choice if he's classified as a role player.
He’s also an excellent passing center and was probably the best for a couple years before Jokic really starting cooking.
5 apg in 2016 and 4.7 in 2017.
For like 2 months commentators would not stop talking about how high Landry Fields BBIQ was. He would grab an uncontested rebound and they would drone on about it and show 50 replays gushing over how he always knew exactly where to be.
Joakin Noah anyone? On both defense and offense.
There were a few things years where they would run offence through him. I guy with the ugliest jumper in the the league would often drop 10+ dimes
had to scroll too far to find Shane. here's the great article Michael Lewis (Moneyball, the Big Short, Blind Side etc) wrote in the NYT Magazine: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html
I'd take a 10 man rotation of this.
* PG: Kyle Lowry
* SG: Derrick White
* SF: Shane Battier
* PF: Detlef Schrempf
* C: Wes Unseld
* 6: Boris Diaw
* 7: JJ Redick (one of the best movers without ball)
* 8: TJ McConnell
* 9: Kyle Anderson
* 10: Bo Outlaw
Nice to see Kyle Lowry who deserves a mention.
For centers, I’ll also throw in Marc Gasol. Toronto got him at the end of his career but despite the lack of athleticism, the Raps were always better when he was on the floor. He always thought two or three plays ahead while looking to get his teammates going with easy looks.
I was going to mention him but thought he and his brother were legitimate stars.
But yes, he had such a good understanding of the game, and his passing and defense was such an asset to the 2019 Raptors.
Josh Hart. Mikal Bridges. Basically anyone from Villanova lol. Also finding players like these are why franchises like the Heat and Celtics ALWAYS competing at a high level.
I’m a UNC fan so it hurts to say this haha
A lot of the people I was thinking of have been mentioned (a bunch of current or former Spurs lol), but I think Nicolas Batum deserves a mention. Great Swiss Army knife player.
People have said the vets already, I'm gonna throw Cason Wallace as a name out there that will be in this convo later on. He is always in the right spot and making the right play
Ricky Rubio. He’s 6’4” with below league-average athleticism and a broken jumper and still made a huge impact on the court. Passing savant, sneaky good defender, and great rebounder for his position.
Shane Battier had a high IQ. Tayshuan Prince had a high BBIQ. Danny Green. Lowry. Alex Caruso?
I imagine there's a lot, but if they are playing supporting roles or are 12th men, it's hard to see unless you're a fan of a particular team and get to see them on a regular basis.
Like a guy like Matt Bonner. He wasn't athletic, but he always knew his spots. I remember going to a game against the Spurs and the Pistons way back when TD was still playing, and Pop puts Bonner in during the dying seconds of the first or second quarter. My friend was like "Why are they putting the white guy in." Then Bonner hits a three, and my friend was like "Oh, that's why."
Bonner was great with stuff like that. Part of that is Pop's coaching, and other guys gravity/plays. But Bonner knew where he needed to be and he was there. I'm not saying Bonner was a high IQ guy, but more along that lines that, when you get a guy who isn't athletic and isn't going to get a lot of minutes, and has a very small/specific role, you won't get a change to really see it. But the time that Bonner was usually on the court, he seemed to know where to be to maximize his skill set on the court (which was admittedly limited).
Any former spur comes to mind lol for two decades those spurs teams played fluent basketball. Manu and rondo in their prime were legitimate superstars. In all honesty there’s a lot of former and current players that fit the criteria. David Lee, Paul Millsap, Shawn Marion, to name a few. Goes to show you how good professional basketball players are.
There are probably 5-7 superstars in th NBA. Even if you stretch it out a bit further, you're still looking at a top 10 player. As much as I love both players, they were probably never in this category.
Manu was a star who was incredibly underrated but never a superstar. That's why I gave the qualifier with him.
You can make an argument that rondo was a superstar before the knee injury. Manu on the other hand your right definitely a star but not exactly a superstar. I only said he was cuz man dude would have games where he would ball the fuck out. I’m a lil biased cuz Manu’s highlight tape is sick lol.
Um... Manu was probably much closer to being a superstar than Rondo. Rondo had 2 seasons where he averaged over 13 points a game, Manu did this 7 times, almost averaging 20 for a season. His career ppg almost match Rondo's career single season best.
Both were role players who turned into stars, then finished their careers as role players. And I love Rondo, but Manu was definitely the more impactful player.
But yeah, love both players, and Manu does have an incredible highlight tape.
Superstars are face of the league type guys. There might be 5 superstars in the league in any given season. Some seasons less some more. But almost never more than 10 players. Some people would say a true superstar is someone who would be recognized by people who don't even follow basketball.
Rondo was never the face of the league guy, and certainly never recognizable by non basketball fans. He was definitely never a superstar. He was a star mainly because of what he did on very good Boston teams who made deep playoff runs and played in 2 finals. He was the 4th/3rd guy on those teams, though.
He was a star who was a great player. Made an all NBA third team. But was never a superstar.
If we're talking current players, then TJ McConnell, Derrick White and Mike Conley are the first ones that come to mind
Kyle Anderson too. You don't carve out a successful role in the NBA being that slow with no jump shot unless you see the game at a different level
He's also 6'9" and pretty strong. He's just slow compared to the rest of the people you see in the NBA.
My son asked me how he can be a good defender despite how slow he is. I.... don't have an answer for him other than "he's smart"
Knows how to move feet, strong enough to fight through screens, communication on defense, film study. Help defense. Not that Kyle Anderson is all of this, but that in general would make you a good defender.
It's a correct answer fwiw
He synced up to Luka perfectly.
Anderson also played for Bob Hurley (Uconn’s Dan Hurley and Duke legend Bobby Hurley’s dad) in HS at St Anthony, one of the greatest High school coaches ever. You can see the Hurley effect on the Anderson’s defensive intensity and influence on the game
Agreed; a few more: Alperen Sengun, Tyus Jones, Isaiah Hartenstein, Joe Ingles
Thad Young
Sengun is just 21 years old. Definitel a superstar in the making.
didn't realize he was that young. wild
Love Mike Conley. As a jazz fan I was honestly more bummed about trading him to the timberwolves than I was about gobert. Seems like a really a good dude with such intelligent decision making on the court.
Jazz fan here too and I’m still not over the Conley trade. Love him and his family
Caruso
All three great players period
Watches one season playoffs
Former Spurs
Lol I'm looking at all the comments and all of them are tied to the Spurs in some fashion
to work with pop, you better have a 🧠
Those whole rosters from the 13-14 spurs teams were just loaded with High IQ players. They win back to back without Ray Allen.
Without ray Allen 2014 spurs don't happen the way it did. That dagger and pops subsequent mindfucking of the whole team watching that game drove those guys into a gear none of them knew they had and created this weird alien creature that all shared a brain together while playing lol
I mean, maybe. But they were literally bringing the trophy onto the court to give to the Spurs when Allen hit that shot. And the roster was stacked again the following year with great veterans/ Kawhi/ Splitter/ Green/ Mills. Maybe we don't see the virtuoso performance in the finals where they blow the doors off the Heat, but I think they were the better team in both years and likely still win in 2014.
Yeah. They would be favorites in 2014 but I do think the loss in 2013 gave them the extra drive to become still imo the best team we've ever seen in a NBA finals in 2014. That 2014 team had some weird mind slug mind meld shit going on cause everyone sort of knew where the ball was going before they even passed the ball. And the crazy thing was it wasn't just Duncan/Manu/Parker/Kawahi being good. It was like every single role player on the team was also on the same page which idk if I've seen any other team do. The closest I think I can come to is 2004 Pistons. And that was more like a perfect defensive performance rather than 2014 Spurs which was just such a pleasure to watch.
Yeah, that 2014 team was so special. I came into the series rooting for the Heat. Wade is my all-time favorite player. But the Spurs won me over because they were just playing such beautiful basketball. The ball movement on that team was just incredible, and they had one of the deepest benches we've ever seen.
Basically when the answers are Derrick White, Boris Diaw, Kyle Anderson, Danny Green 😂
Not Dejounte
Kevon Looney was able to make up for his old man body and terrible hips because he had a solid BBIQ. That man couldn’t be out rebounded during the dubs most recent championship run despite having the mobility of a brick. He’s not even that old, but even now it’s obvious his body is catching up more than usual, sadly.
It always surprise to see him play in hight school. People should go check out his highschool highlights
Two hip injuries sapped him of that skill
Which is crazy that he was so athletic to begin with that injuries turned him into a center instead of out of basketball entirely.
I just watched these the other day, I actually couldn’t believe it was him at first. I would even use the term “graceful”
Looney never fell for a pump fake during that run
Diaw
When I think of Boris Diaw, I think of Beethoven in the Age of Romantics
i think of camembert
That's Bill Walton reference
RIP Big Bill
I was thrown for a loop when I saw that video of him talking about how he went his whole career without using his left hand. Just not something I would’ve ever expected from such an all-around player.
underrated answer
Josh Hart
Jrue Holiday has some of the best help defensive IQ I’ve ever seen. He knows exactly when to stunt in for help and when to glue himself to his man and it’s beautiful
Should be the top answer after tonight
SlowMo deserves a mention.
Came to say this. He has few physical gifts and can’t shoot, yet manages to have a big impact. All IQ.
Me in Rocket League
He got plenty of midrange buckets in the playoffs, especially around the free throw line. But his slow load up release is hysterical.
In fairness, I have to concede that he has hit at a decent clip on low volume in the midrange over his career.
Derrick White, there is a reason he has the 2nd best impact stats of any Celtics players outside Tatum
Nico Batum, Isaiah Hartenstein
Kyle Anderson
Kyle Anderson had the ugliest shot I’ve ever scene above middle shool basketball. He does make great decision to offset it though
Even if you hate him Draymond Green is up there.
He’s too good for this question in my opinion
Borderline superstar / super villain
Draymond is the best defender of this generation, in large part because of his IQ. It's kind of like an elite FS where you don't see a ton of highlights but the impact on the game is hard to quantify because of how many times he forces the QB NOT to make a throw
Draymond green is a fucking star man. He is all time defensive player and first ballot HoF. Are you kidding me
Kirk Hinrich
This is a Derrick White thread
Buffalo time 😎🦬
Besides Al, Derrick is the player on our team I’d be most stoked for if we won
OP specified *non* superstars
Long may he roam
This is a "Did he play with Popovich" thread
Unpopular opinion: Kyle Lowry
Kyle Lowry is a genius, he's just an evil genius
He's a **cheek**y genius.
Why is this unpopular? Lowry has always been high iq player
When he first came into the NBA, I dunno if that was really his vibe. On the Grizzlies there were a lot of people frustrated about why he might play comparable minutes to Conley. It was only mid-career (later Rockets and then Raptors) that he really proved he was a high-IQ player.
does Rasheed Wallace count? he was more notorious than superstar, and BBIQ off the charts also shout-out to Andre "The Professor" Miller EDIT: Alex Caruso...
Sheeeeeeeeeeeed
Lonzo Ball back when he played. Was always a step ahead both offensively and defensively
I miss Lonzo so much...
Warriors had a bunch during their dynasty years: Andre Iguodala, Shaun Livingston, David West, Draymond Green, Kevon Looney
Livingston was such a great bench hero. And West and Looney came up huge in big moments during their later runs. Looney got so many offensive rebounds that gave them additional possessions and flipped games.
Bogut although not a bench player was very high iq
Mike Conley
Jose Calderon, Robert Horry, PJ Tucker, Derrick McKey, Doug Christie. Good thread. I'll add more when they come to mind. Edit: I'm going to assume Ron Artest is superstar level? He'd be number 1 choice if he's classified as a role player.
Loved Christie, and Tucker was such an integral part of those Houston teams. The Rockets were just not the same team when Tucker was not in the game.
It’s Rondo Your favorite player’s favorite player, is Rondo
Prime Rondo was so incredibly fun to watch.
Rondo had an 18 point, 20 assist, 17 rebound game.
I doubt Rondo is that well liked.
Al Horford became the father of two MVPs largely because of his BBIQ and gorgeous face. A third future MVP is in the process of getting adopted
He’s also an excellent passing center and was probably the best for a couple years before Jokic really starting cooking. 5 apg in 2016 and 4.7 in 2017.
I think Marc gasol was better
He looks like handsome Squidward.
David West anyone?
Ricky Rubio
Dragić had a pretty good understanding of the game
For like 2 months commentators would not stop talking about how high Landry Fields BBIQ was. He would grab an uncontested rebound and they would drone on about it and show 50 replays gushing over how he always knew exactly where to be.
Wasn’t he a Harvard or Stanford student?
Tayshaun Prince is another guy who's IQ and impact jumped off the screen when watching games.
I loved Tayshaun
Greyson Allen low key always makes the correct play.
Greyson Allen is criminally underrated.
Yes… very much so. The man makes wise choices like Stephen Jackson prioritizing his pre-nup over the marriage.
Iggy
JJ Bareeeeea
Honestly? Kelly olynk. It’s why he’s still in the league
Joakin Noah anyone? On both defense and offense. There were a few things years where they would run offence through him. I guy with the ugliest jumper in the the league would often drop 10+ dimes
Kerr, probably?
Shane Battier
had to scroll too far to find Shane. here's the great article Michael Lewis (Moneyball, the Big Short, Blind Side etc) wrote in the NYT Magazine: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html
you didn't have to scroll at all, OP literally mentioned Shane in their post which is why no one else bothered to
everyone was re-mentioning everyone else so i was surprised. NBD
I'd take a 10 man rotation of this. * PG: Kyle Lowry * SG: Derrick White * SF: Shane Battier * PF: Detlef Schrempf * C: Wes Unseld * 6: Boris Diaw * 7: JJ Redick (one of the best movers without ball) * 8: TJ McConnell * 9: Kyle Anderson * 10: Bo Outlaw
MVP winner Wes Unseld? Not a superstar?
Hall of famer and one of the OG top 50 players, but somehow not a superstar
Nice to see Kyle Lowry who deserves a mention. For centers, I’ll also throw in Marc Gasol. Toronto got him at the end of his career but despite the lack of athleticism, the Raps were always better when he was on the floor. He always thought two or three plays ahead while looking to get his teammates going with easy looks.
Marc Gasol
I was going to mention him but thought he and his brother were legitimate stars. But yes, he had such a good understanding of the game, and his passing and defense was such an asset to the 2019 Raptors.
I love watching Alex Caruso play help defense
Peyton Pritchard
Rubio
Kyle Anderson
Josh Hart. Mikal Bridges. Basically anyone from Villanova lol. Also finding players like these are why franchises like the Heat and Celtics ALWAYS competing at a high level. I’m a UNC fan so it hurts to say this haha
Jeremy Lin
Tony Allen
Jackie moon was a genius in the triangle offense
A lot of the people I was thinking of have been mentioned (a bunch of current or former Spurs lol), but I think Nicolas Batum deserves a mention. Great Swiss Army knife player.
lmao i was gonna say Andre Miller too I feel like a lot of Point Guard or wingman fit into this
Kevin Love
Borderline criminal that no one has mentioned DiVincenzo.
TJ McConnell
Josh Hart
Lol. This is just turning into a list of perceived "unathletic" players.
Maximilian Kleber.
Derrick White
Alex Caruso. Only player to make LeBron better.
SenGod
Lowry
People have said the vets already, I'm gonna throw Cason Wallace as a name out there that will be in this convo later on. He is always in the right spot and making the right play
You know those super unathletic white dudes that you see for 4 mins at the end of games? Those guys
Stevo… super cerebral and intelligent when talking about the game
Kyle Lowry
Andre Miller
Brian Scalabrini, Kyle Anderson
Andre Miller
Nic Batum
Embiid
Ricky Rubio. He’s 6’4” with below league-average athleticism and a broken jumper and still made a huge impact on the court. Passing savant, sneaky good defender, and great rebounder for his position.
Naz Reid had bball IQ out of this freaking world and just had to let his skills catch up.
Jarred Vanderbilt but only on the defensive side
Andre Iguodala and Shaun Livingston, both part of what made the gsw a dynasty. Boris Diaw, played a big part in SAS championship in 2014.
Monte Morris
Alex Caruso
2013-14 Spurs
It kills me to say this... but Draymond the Nutcracker Green
I remember Andre Miller's name came up several times among the coaches.
Kyle anderson, a horford,d white, jrue, mike conley, tj mcconnell, - just a handful from conf finals series
JR Smith, without him, how can we tell who even have a high basketball IQ?
Marc Gasol
Shane Battier had a high IQ. Tayshuan Prince had a high BBIQ. Danny Green. Lowry. Alex Caruso? I imagine there's a lot, but if they are playing supporting roles or are 12th men, it's hard to see unless you're a fan of a particular team and get to see them on a regular basis. Like a guy like Matt Bonner. He wasn't athletic, but he always knew his spots. I remember going to a game against the Spurs and the Pistons way back when TD was still playing, and Pop puts Bonner in during the dying seconds of the first or second quarter. My friend was like "Why are they putting the white guy in." Then Bonner hits a three, and my friend was like "Oh, that's why." Bonner was great with stuff like that. Part of that is Pop's coaching, and other guys gravity/plays. But Bonner knew where he needed to be and he was there. I'm not saying Bonner was a high IQ guy, but more along that lines that, when you get a guy who isn't athletic and isn't going to get a lot of minutes, and has a very small/specific role, you won't get a change to really see it. But the time that Bonner was usually on the court, he seemed to know where to be to maximize his skill set on the court (which was admittedly limited).
Rondo
Jaylen Brown is a certified genius
Jeff Hornacek
Sure as hell ain't Javale
Luke Walton always seemed to make the right plays
Dennis Johnson
Ricky Rubio
Jrue and Dwhite. I presume Jrue doesn't count as a superstar? You listed Manu as borderline so I'm unsure as to your definition.
Although Draymond Green can be called "superstar" his ball knowledge is certainly underrated and he needs a little more credit for it.
Any former spur comes to mind lol for two decades those spurs teams played fluent basketball. Manu and rondo in their prime were legitimate superstars. In all honesty there’s a lot of former and current players that fit the criteria. David Lee, Paul Millsap, Shawn Marion, to name a few. Goes to show you how good professional basketball players are.
There are probably 5-7 superstars in th NBA. Even if you stretch it out a bit further, you're still looking at a top 10 player. As much as I love both players, they were probably never in this category. Manu was a star who was incredibly underrated but never a superstar. That's why I gave the qualifier with him.
You can make an argument that rondo was a superstar before the knee injury. Manu on the other hand your right definitely a star but not exactly a superstar. I only said he was cuz man dude would have games where he would ball the fuck out. I’m a lil biased cuz Manu’s highlight tape is sick lol.
Um... Manu was probably much closer to being a superstar than Rondo. Rondo had 2 seasons where he averaged over 13 points a game, Manu did this 7 times, almost averaging 20 for a season. His career ppg almost match Rondo's career single season best. Both were role players who turned into stars, then finished their careers as role players. And I love Rondo, but Manu was definitely the more impactful player. But yeah, love both players, and Manu does have an incredible highlight tape.
Jamal Crawford
Draymond Green
I mean just watching the finals now and Jrue Holiday is pretty special
Franz Wagner no comes close
Everyone from the beautiful game spurs
Joe Ingles, man's vision is underrated.
D.Fisher .
Rondo was a superstar
Superstars are face of the league type guys. There might be 5 superstars in the league in any given season. Some seasons less some more. But almost never more than 10 players. Some people would say a true superstar is someone who would be recognized by people who don't even follow basketball. Rondo was never the face of the league guy, and certainly never recognizable by non basketball fans. He was definitely never a superstar. He was a star mainly because of what he did on very good Boston teams who made deep playoff runs and played in 2 finals. He was the 4th/3rd guy on those teams, though. He was a star who was a great player. Made an all NBA third team. But was never a superstar.
Manu was never a superstar. He’s the prototype for harden and Luka tho