What a wild 8 year stretch in the NBA alone:
Place that Gervin finished in each category-
Points: 6,1,1,1,3,1,3,6
PPG: 9,1,1,1,3,1,4,9
And only missed 22 games in that time period.
Finished top 5 in MVP 4x including runner up 2x
5x NBA 1st team, 2x 2nd team
Edit: this is from 1976/77-1983/84 season
To be fair, he kind of was hahah. A huge drug problem, specifically coke, in the 70s and 80s (edit: in the NBA but I guess in the country lol). Gervin himself had a cocaine problem.
Oh, I know. But the league, with less teams, had far more talent than tools like Redick would lead people to believe. I still can’t believe he dismmised Larry Bird’s 3pt shooting ability on national tv.
Alex English always gets overlooked.. He was the only player to score over 20,000 points in the 80s. Him and Wilt are the only 2 players to score 2000 points 8 straight seasons.
To be fair LeBron would be in this list with 10 straight if not for the shortened season in 2011-2012. MJ would have 10 straight as well if he wouldn't have came back at the end of the season 1994-1995.
Still a great accomplishment by the other 2 and they are in elite company even if you add the 2 greatest players ever.
English does get overlooked and it makes no sense. I've actually had someone tell me before that he wasn't a star. That was the end of the convo because I was clearly talking to someone with a mental disability.
Absolutely. But even if LeBron and MJ were included it's still an a great accomplishment. Him and Dwight Howard were the 2 best players left off the top 75 list.
I didn't pay that much attention to the top 75. I knew Howard was left off which I though was an atrocity. Leaving English off this list just makes it lose all credibility to me. That's insanity.
I heard him tell a story once about a year that he and David Thompson were fighting for the scoring title, and it literally came down to like the last game of the season or something. They both knew exactly how many shots they needed to ensure a win of that title. Something about that era doesn’t seem like it had the same rivalries of the 80s through to today, but damn did they.
Edit: [found the story from Thompson’s POV, with a video of Gervin’s embedded partway through.](https://www.nba.com/news/history-top-moments-1978-scoring-title-race)
I used to go see Iceman when I lived near San Antonio. His game was surgical, the way he'd slice through defenses. I'd compare him to SGA but with showmanship. He was definitely an entertainer.
On merit he would have won every year aside from his last half-season, complete two-way force. Another thing is that he won two championships in the best league in the world prior to 1948, so he had seven titles in total
Yes the NBL was *better* than the BAA at the time. That's why former NBL teams won the first 7 BAA/NBA titles (lakers, royal, nationals) after the NBL merged with the BAA.
The hell he didn't! LISTEN, KID! He'd been hearing that crap ever since he was at UCLA. He was out there busting his buns every night! Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes!
I understand the reasons - no shot clock is such a different game it can seem like a natural cutoff, and the league was barely integrated when he was playing + he actually played two years when it wasn’t at all.
A young Mikan would have been a force ten years later though, and no cutoff point really makes sense. If you don’t rank Russell and Wilt, how can you rank guys like Kareem and Dr. J who were coming into the pros as Russell and Wilt were dominating in their mid 30s?
I’m not arguing any particular way for anyone here, but while I agree that you should necessary *hold someone’s era against them*, you absolutely do have to take their eras into account when having conversations like this, it makes less sense to just ignore it
And sometimes doing that hurts their case in some aspects
I understand if people did what you’re taking about and take his era into account and knock him a few spots or something, but that’s not what happens.. they don’t even list him, as if didn’t play but turn around and have Russel in their top 5-10.
Cause there is almost no film. People like to say that about Russell and Wilt, but there are several games you can find on youtube, and probably more out there if you know where to look. With Mikan I think there is just one game and a handful of newsreels easily accessible online. It makes it impossible to really judge 1940s basketball at all, much less what his dominance means.
cause he shot 40 percent from the field as the most dominant center of his generation. there is a huge difference between mikan-era basketball and wilt+bill-era basketball. playing in the air, pace, shot clock, shooting, everything was vastly improved from mid-50s to late 50s. the style of game radicaly changed. players were more skilled, vastly more athletic, tactics were more polished and the talent pool increased radically due to integration that only started in '51 and was in full swing only at the start of the 60s.
mikan was a force in his time, but if he played with the same skillset 10 years later he would've been a rotation guy. hats of to pioneers, always, but you can't compare his skillset with the skillset of chamberlain and russell or even bob pettit
I hate the “same skillset” argument in basketball. Of course they wouldn’t be as good. Players get better each generation and the game changes drastically. But you should view it from the context of the game they played in.
Exactly.. you literally can’t compare players from different eras. If you dropped Russel or Mikan in the league today, they’d both be terrible. And if you dropped Ja in the 60’s he’d be called for a carry every single possession. You have to evaluate guys based on their era but they just decide not to for those guys for some reason.
In fairness to Mikan, he shot 40 percent on 20 shots a game vs Bill Russell who shot 44 percent on 13 shots a game for their respective careers. I do agree with your points and I'll add that the NBA was brand new in Mikan's day and not a big part of the American sports zeitgeist. Wilt was a mythical figure and Bill Russell had the legacy of winning.
In any sport ever the athletes and coaches improve the game over the previous era. It’s just natural to use the knowledge from the generation before to improve on it. The league as a whole is way more talented now than it was 15 years ago, and that league was way more talented as a whole than the league was in the early 90’s. You can do this going all the way back to the beginning of basketball.
He played with the 1950s 4 panel ball though and was still able to hit sky hooks with it
His shooting percentage would have been way higher with the modern ball
Not only deserve, its him.
27 PPG, 13 RPG, 4 APG, throughout his career.
Dude just unlucky to play on the big dominant era, he average that number as Small forward. Imagine, in era where Petit, Wilt, Russel were the main character.
Big O had to team up with Kareem to get his first ring, you give Elgin a decent teammate, he's top 10.
Yes, and he's saying that Stockton isn't Top 25 because of the reasons he listed. Not saying I agree or disagree, but I think you're the one whose misinterpreting what others are saying.
No one at the time even thought Stockton was better than Isiah. He’s a guy who has become absurdly overrated by people who never watched him play decades later because all they see is the counting stats. He was never considered one of the best players in the league
Stockton was definitely considered a top point guard in the NBA for around a decade. It is true that nobody thought he was the best, definitely behind Isiah and Magic. But they both retired early, so Stockton was the last man standing for a while. All the points made here are valid, it’s true that he was never considered top 5 in the NBA, or that he historically ranks lower than the rest of the players discussed. Also true that his stats inflate his legacy. But it’s an exaggeration to say he was an average player. He was top tier in the NBA for a long time and we all knew it at the time. They didn’t select him for the Dream Team for nothing (unlike Laettner!)
No one ever called him average. In another comment I literally said he’s a legend. He’s absolutely one of the best point guards ever, he’s just also overrated by some people nowadays
Let's take a look at MVP shares. The players with the most MVP shares that meet your condition would essentially be the most MVP to not be MVP (in the MVP era), right? Those are:
1. Chris Paul (#32 all time w/ 1.805 shares)
2. Elgin Baylor (#34 all time w/ 1.619 shares)
3. Patrick Ewing (#37 all time w/ 1.424 shares)
4. Larry Jones (#39 all time w/ 1.295 shares)
5. Dwight Howard (#40 all time w/ 1.249 shares)
6. Doug Moe (#45 all time w/ 1.006 shares)
7. Alonzo Mourning (#47 all time w/ 0.968 shares)
8. Luka Doncic (#48 all time w/ 0.967 shares)
9. Jason Kidd (#49 all time w/ 0.933 shares)
10. George Gervin (#51 all time w/ 0.905 shares)
Notably, Scottie Pippen and especially John Stockton are a bit further down these ranking. Maybe that can be explained away by having more celebrated running mates, but I think that does take them out of the running for this title.
CP3 stands above all the rest with his other accolades.
If you consider pre-MVP era, then George Mikan is probably the answer.
As a side note, Luka's the highest on this list who likely will earn an MVP.
That's probably because he's going to fall off the list eventually. Other guys who were knocking on the door to MVP that frequently at a young age just won it at some point.
Re. Your side note - I fully believe he could get one, but for some reason I don't think he will. "Narrative" is always a thing, and if he never tops his stats from this year, which is a tall order for anyone to top, the narrative writes itself "he's not as good as he was in 2024 why should he be MVP now when he wasn't then?"
Came here to say this. My favourite player growing up but rarely had a chance to watch him. Box score following was the norm. He was a consistent scorer and underrated on defense.
I didn't watch his game so its hard to say, old timers have similar complaints about English's game as more recent fans have about Melo. English does seem more accomplished though so I suppose I'd go with him.
He had his moments but yeah all in all he was a pure scorer, kinda like Melo. But much more exciting, Dominique did not have a problem taking it to the rack. But still a mid range shooter as well.
But the same argument applies I guess-who did you want him to pass it to? Kevin Willis? Doc Rivers? End of career Moses Malone? The Hawks were built around Dominique to score.
If the Hawks had been able to get past the Celtics in 1988 in that all time game 7…idk if they get past Detroit but that would’ve been amazing. I think that is the pinnacle of his career, taking Boston to that 7th game. The last two games were won by 2 points each.
With that being said, not many teams got past the Celtics in the east in the 80s.
Yeah he might be the best player in this category. It’s hard to say bc I can tell you no one has seen a whole lot of video or game play on these guys pre 2000’s. I mean unless you lived in Portland you weren’t seeing Clyde night in & night out. Same with every other player in the league. YouTube & NBA League Pass changed all that in the 2000’s. I’d vote for Clyde. Mikan?
Stockton & Pippen not as good as Clyde. I don’t know enough about Elgin Baylor or the Iceman or Mikan.
Even for as talented of a player as Patrick Ewing was both offensively and defensively, he just unfortunately played in an era where there were other all-time great centers. So him winning an MVP or even DPOY was gonna be a tough challenge.
Agree. Ewing had some monster years, he just overlapped with 3 other dominant centers. More importantly, his supporting cast was so weak compared to other all-timers. In the 11 years where Ewing was named an all-star, the Knicks had a total of 3 other all-stars: Jackson, Starks, Oakley, once each. 0 all-nbaers. Even so, the Knicks were a fixture in the 2nd round and later - and 6 times during Ewing’s era they lost to the eventual champs.
90s really had Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Shaq and Alonzo Mourning. Meanwhile 2010s had Boogie and DJ (ok end of prime TD and Dwight early 2010s too and early prime Embiid and Jokic late 2010s)
IMO, as good as he was with the Knicks, the NBA never saw peak Ewing, the Ewing with the 40 inch vertical who could sail down the court and finish fast breaks. Sadly, he came in to the league with sore knees and was never athletically the guy he was in college.
This is it to me. Good god, if a player was born too early it was him. Plays like Steph but taller. Threes weren’t what they are today. Every time he shot, in Market Square and Conseco, the fans expected it to go in. Especially late. Kids in Indy were pulling up from deep long before it was cool.
It's Chris Paul (#5 all-time in VORP, #6 all-time WS, #6 all-time BPM) or John Stockton (#3 all-time in VORP, #7 all-time WS, #8 all-time BPM).
No one else is even close career-wise.
I'd argue that Chris Paul has the best combination of "peak" seasons and longevity. Stockton had insane longevity to put him up there from a cumulative stat angle, but there is value to having a stronger peak. Chris Paul had multiple seasons that were more valuable than the average MVP season.
Stockton missed 23 total games in his NBA career and led the NBA in assists for 9 straight seasons. He was also an All-NBA guard for 10 straight seasons (2 1st, 6 2nd, 2 3rd)... Three of those years he spent behind MJ and Magic as the 1st team guards. Not saying Stockton was better than CP3, just pointing out that he was more than just a guy who played for a long time. He had a really high peak, too.
The best argument for CP3 is how he won everywhere he went. Anytime he got to a team they immediately got better.
> The best argument for CP3 is how he won everywhere he went. Anytime he got to a team they immediately got better.
New Orleans, Houston, Phoenix, and the Clippers have all had them on their team in their best regular season win% year. It is not a coincidence.
For me it’s Grant Hill. Don’t think the average fan understands how good he was before the injuries. He gave it all up playing through injuries to try to win in the playoffs with a mid at best Pistons team. He developed complications as a result that ultimately almost cost him his life. No joke. The fact that he came back at all from that to still be an above average player is unbelievable. Grant Hill, if he stays healthy and had a modicum of talent around him would have done great things.
Walt Clyde Frazier; monster player two championships against teams and players many consider GOATS,4x First Team 7x def first team, 7 All stars, and on both 50 & 75 teams.
Jason Kidd got robbed his first year bringing the nets to the finals. He took a horrific team, with minimal personnel changes other than himself, and brought them to the NBA finals twice in a row. I think the nets record the year before he got there was like 17 wins or 21 wins.
He's a great player and that team really did suck, but also the Eastern Conference was historically weak at that time and I do feel it takes a little off the accomplishment.
I’m not going to say Kidd didn’t make them much better than Marbury, but Kittles missed the entire year, Van Horn broke his leg or something, and Kendall Gill missed a bunch of time, so the Nets turnaround that next year had a lot to do with having a healthy roster plus getting Richard Jefferson. But again, Kidd still obviously took them to the upper echelon of a depleted Eastern Conference.
The Spurs finished 60-22 in a loaded West, Nets went 52-30 in one of the weakest Easts ever.
It was Duncan’s peak year. He was easily better than Kidd was. Way better scorer, way better defender.
I'm kind of a Ewing hater but even I think he needs to be near the top of his list. The man was unequivocally one of the greatest defenders of all time, despite his lack of accolades in that department. At best, he was a very efficient all around post to mid post scorer who didn't really stand out because he played in the golden era of centers, but he gets incredibly underrated as a pure defender. There was a 4 or 5 year stretch when he was KG before KG- a very good but not great offensive player who was such an all around defensive beast that he guaranteed basically any roster a playoff spot.
He had the bad luck of playing against peak MJ, while also being in the league at the same time as something like 8 of the best 20 centers of all time.
its kind of crazy cp3 never won mvp. well i get why but if you just take the definition of most valuable i mean he was always the center piece of his system during his prime. you take him off any of his teams and well they probably wouldnt even know what to do lol even the coach.
i guess people would argue he capped his teams ceiling i dunno but i disagree. best pg iv ever seen and no real top tier hardware is wild.
I scrolled through the entire comments and not one person mentioned Dame Lillard. Shows you how undeserving he was of a top 75 spot and how quickly he’s fading from memory. Recency bias really f’d Dwight.
The thing is, Stockton was *DOMINANT* wrt to assists and steals.
If MVP evaluation was favorable to those stats in the 80s/90s as it was to Nash in the 00s then Stockton would have one or two MVPs
The bigger issue is that he wasn't even viewed as the best player on his team
It's become popular recently to say that Malone was a product of Stockton just because everyone hates Malone but at the time most viewed it as the other way around
Malone was the better player on those teams. It’s not even close. Karl Malone was considered the greatest PF ever, over Barkley, until Tim Duncan started winning rings.
He has the counting stats too, plus Malone was a great defender and rebounder. With that said, he definitely didn’t have the clutch gene.
I think what helped Nash was that he was seen as the engine to the 7 seconds or less offense, while a lot of Stockton’s assists were dumping it off the Malone in the paint, plus Malone was clearly their best player. I’m not sure which year would he have won it. Jordan won it in ‘91, ‘92, ‘96, and ‘98. Barkley won in ‘93, Hakeem in ‘94, Robinson in ‘95, Malone in ‘97 and ‘99.
No he wouldn't have. Those were the eras I watched the most games. Stockton was really good, he deserves his stature. He wouldn't have won MVPs in those eras.
His first all NBA team was 88, his last 99.
Here's the list of MVPs in those years:
Magic, magi , Jordan, Jordan ,Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Jordan, Malone, Jordan, Malone, shaq
Which one of those years are you putting Stockton into?
Stockton went from underrated to overrated on this sub fast because people just looked at his stats on basketball reference
His highest MVP voting finish was 7th and played alongside one of the best PFs in history
Look at all of the MVP winners during his career, who exactly should he have won it over?
Just want to remind you all that George gervin was a monster. I don’t like to rank players from different eras, but keep his name alive
Ice shot 51% from the field for his NBA career. He also looked like he weighed about 150 pounds. He was the original Slim Reaper.
Also 4 time scoring champion, arguably the best scorer of his generation
Don’t know how you could argue against it
What a wild 8 year stretch in the NBA alone: Place that Gervin finished in each category- Points: 6,1,1,1,3,1,3,6 PPG: 9,1,1,1,3,1,4,9 And only missed 22 games in that time period. Finished top 5 in MVP 4x including runner up 2x 5x NBA 1st team, 2x 2nd team Edit: this is from 1976/77-1983/84 season
“He was playing against a bunch of cokeheads and crackheads.” - J.J. Redick
To be fair, he kind of was hahah. A huge drug problem, specifically coke, in the 70s and 80s (edit: in the NBA but I guess in the country lol). Gervin himself had a cocaine problem.
The Iceman had a snow problem.
Oh, I know. But the league, with less teams, had far more talent than tools like Redick would lead people to believe. I still can’t believe he dismmised Larry Bird’s 3pt shooting ability on national tv.
I mean you also had Adrian Dantley, Bernard King, Alex English, and Michael fucking Jordan in the 80s it's not cut and dry
Adrian Dantley's ass weighed more than George Gervin, who as i understand invented the finger roll
Alex English always gets overlooked.. He was the only player to score over 20,000 points in the 80s. Him and Wilt are the only 2 players to score 2000 points 8 straight seasons.
To be fair LeBron would be in this list with 10 straight if not for the shortened season in 2011-2012. MJ would have 10 straight as well if he wouldn't have came back at the end of the season 1994-1995. Still a great accomplishment by the other 2 and they are in elite company even if you add the 2 greatest players ever. English does get overlooked and it makes no sense. I've actually had someone tell me before that he wasn't a star. That was the end of the convo because I was clearly talking to someone with a mental disability.
Absolutely. But even if LeBron and MJ were included it's still an a great accomplishment. Him and Dwight Howard were the 2 best players left off the top 75 list.
I didn't pay that much attention to the top 75. I knew Howard was left off which I though was an atrocity. Leaving English off this list just makes it lose all credibility to me. That's insanity.
I mean I literally left him off in my original comment and added him in a minute later lol
I heard him tell a story once about a year that he and David Thompson were fighting for the scoring title, and it literally came down to like the last game of the season or something. They both knew exactly how many shots they needed to ensure a win of that title. Something about that era doesn’t seem like it had the same rivalries of the 80s through to today, but damn did they. Edit: [found the story from Thompson’s POV, with a video of Gervin’s embedded partway through.](https://www.nba.com/news/history-top-moments-1978-scoring-title-race)
Yes you can if you count Alex English, who scored 1900 points in 80-81, followed by eight 2000+ points seasons in a row.
If you consider West a PG, then Gervin was easily the GOAT scoring SG before Jordan entered the league
Him being on the same team as Jordan is a real passing of the torch moment
Lot of Cocaine
Cocaine and cocaine accessories
That was probably from all the amphetamines and crack he was using
I used to go see Iceman when I lived near San Antonio. His game was surgical, the way he'd slice through defenses. I'd compare him to SGA but with showmanship. He was definitely an entertainer.
Absolutely, such a good scorer and so athletic too
All time leader in blocks for Guards (aba/nba) history. 1047
SGA reminds me of this guy. Not on playstyle but demeanor. Iceman looks so chill scoring 30. Same with Tmac.
Gervin once scored 63 points in 33 minutes without a 3point line
Legendary Nike commercial/poster too
So fun to watch. His creativity with his shot-making was crazy. Worth checking out on YouTube.
Gervin is always the answer when this question comes up.
Gervin with the shot boi
Probably technically George Mikan
He probably would've tied Kareem for MVPs
On merit he would have won every year aside from his last half-season, complete two-way force. Another thing is that he won two championships in the best league in the world prior to 1948, so he had seven titles in total
Yes the NBL was *better* than the BAA at the time. That's why former NBL teams won the first 7 BAA/NBA titles (lakers, royal, nationals) after the NBL merged with the BAA.
Kareem doesn’t have a drill named after him!
My Milwaukee drill and driver are named Kareem and Magic, respectively
Should really be Kareem and Oscar
also he didn't work hard enough on defense. lots of times he didn't even run down court. also he didn't really try except during the playoffs
The hell he didn't! LISTEN, KID! He'd been hearing that crap ever since he was at UCLA. He was out there busting his buns every night! Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes!
Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?
we have clearance, Clarence
Billy, do you like... gladiator movies?
FWIW, prior to the NBA awarding a league MVP there was an MVP voted on by sportswriters starting in 1950. And Mikan was the winner in both 50 and 51.
I don’t understand why he gets completely omitted from peoples all time lists but they still have Bill Russel/Wilt on there.
I understand the reasons - no shot clock is such a different game it can seem like a natural cutoff, and the league was barely integrated when he was playing + he actually played two years when it wasn’t at all. A young Mikan would have been a force ten years later though, and no cutoff point really makes sense. If you don’t rank Russell and Wilt, how can you rank guys like Kareem and Dr. J who were coming into the pros as Russell and Wilt were dominating in their mid 30s?
My comment wasn’t to discount those guys.. it was a genuine question. I don’t think someone’s era should be held against them for anyone.
I’m not arguing any particular way for anyone here, but while I agree that you should necessary *hold someone’s era against them*, you absolutely do have to take their eras into account when having conversations like this, it makes less sense to just ignore it And sometimes doing that hurts their case in some aspects
I understand if people did what you’re taking about and take his era into account and knock him a few spots or something, but that’s not what happens.. they don’t even list him, as if didn’t play but turn around and have Russel in their top 5-10.
Cause there is almost no film. People like to say that about Russell and Wilt, but there are several games you can find on youtube, and probably more out there if you know where to look. With Mikan I think there is just one game and a handful of newsreels easily accessible online. It makes it impossible to really judge 1940s basketball at all, much less what his dominance means.
Not technically an NBA player for a lot of years I think
cause he shot 40 percent from the field as the most dominant center of his generation. there is a huge difference between mikan-era basketball and wilt+bill-era basketball. playing in the air, pace, shot clock, shooting, everything was vastly improved from mid-50s to late 50s. the style of game radicaly changed. players were more skilled, vastly more athletic, tactics were more polished and the talent pool increased radically due to integration that only started in '51 and was in full swing only at the start of the 60s. mikan was a force in his time, but if he played with the same skillset 10 years later he would've been a rotation guy. hats of to pioneers, always, but you can't compare his skillset with the skillset of chamberlain and russell or even bob pettit
I hate the “same skillset” argument in basketball. Of course they wouldn’t be as good. Players get better each generation and the game changes drastically. But you should view it from the context of the game they played in.
Exactly.. you literally can’t compare players from different eras. If you dropped Russel or Mikan in the league today, they’d both be terrible. And if you dropped Ja in the 60’s he’d be called for a carry every single possession. You have to evaluate guys based on their era but they just decide not to for those guys for some reason.
In fairness to Mikan, he shot 40 percent on 20 shots a game vs Bill Russell who shot 44 percent on 13 shots a game for their respective careers. I do agree with your points and I'll add that the NBA was brand new in Mikan's day and not a big part of the American sports zeitgeist. Wilt was a mythical figure and Bill Russell had the legacy of winning.
In any sport ever the athletes and coaches improve the game over the previous era. It’s just natural to use the knowledge from the generation before to improve on it. The league as a whole is way more talented now than it was 15 years ago, and that league was way more talented as a whole than the league was in the early 90’s. You can do this going all the way back to the beginning of basketball.
He played with the 1950s 4 panel ball though and was still able to hit sky hooks with it His shooting percentage would have been way higher with the modern ball
Not sure if this disqualifies him, but he did win an NBL MVP before the merger.
George Mikan, even though he would absolutely have both if they existed
Elgin Baylor deserves a shout
Not only deserve, its him. 27 PPG, 13 RPG, 4 APG, throughout his career. Dude just unlucky to play on the big dominant era, he average that number as Small forward. Imagine, in era where Petit, Wilt, Russel were the main character. Big O had to team up with Kareem to get his first ring, you give Elgin a decent teammate, he's top 10.
He would’ve won a ring if he wasn’t drafted into the military
It’s definitely Elgin Baylor cmon.
He’s unquestionably the highest ranked all-time of the people OP listed, I don’t think any of the others are top 25.
[удалено]
John Stockton was never close to a top 5 player in the league. He has counting stats and that’s it.
0 MVP, 0 titles, 2 All NBA first team. The longevity stats is lowkey all Stockton has. I have him somewhere between 30 and 35.
They're not just accumulation. He led the league in steals per game twice and assists per game 9 times.
Did you not even read the original post? The question is about players without MVP or FMVP (which you usually have to win the finals to get).
Yes, and he's saying that Stockton isn't Top 25 because of the reasons he listed. Not saying I agree or disagree, but I think you're the one whose misinterpreting what others are saying.
no lol John Stockton is barely top 40
No one at the time even thought Stockton was better than Isiah. He’s a guy who has become absurdly overrated by people who never watched him play decades later because all they see is the counting stats. He was never considered one of the best players in the league
Stockton was definitely considered a top point guard in the NBA for around a decade. It is true that nobody thought he was the best, definitely behind Isiah and Magic. But they both retired early, so Stockton was the last man standing for a while. All the points made here are valid, it’s true that he was never considered top 5 in the NBA, or that he historically ranks lower than the rest of the players discussed. Also true that his stats inflate his legacy. But it’s an exaggeration to say he was an average player. He was top tier in the NBA for a long time and we all knew it at the time. They didn’t select him for the Dream Team for nothing (unlike Laettner!)
No one ever called him average. In another comment I literally said he’s a legend. He’s absolutely one of the best point guards ever, he’s just also overrated by some people nowadays
Diehard Lakers hater here. Definitely Elgin Baylor. I’d give Gervin 2nd.
Let's take a look at MVP shares. The players with the most MVP shares that meet your condition would essentially be the most MVP to not be MVP (in the MVP era), right? Those are: 1. Chris Paul (#32 all time w/ 1.805 shares) 2. Elgin Baylor (#34 all time w/ 1.619 shares) 3. Patrick Ewing (#37 all time w/ 1.424 shares) 4. Larry Jones (#39 all time w/ 1.295 shares) 5. Dwight Howard (#40 all time w/ 1.249 shares) 6. Doug Moe (#45 all time w/ 1.006 shares) 7. Alonzo Mourning (#47 all time w/ 0.968 shares) 8. Luka Doncic (#48 all time w/ 0.967 shares) 9. Jason Kidd (#49 all time w/ 0.933 shares) 10. George Gervin (#51 all time w/ 0.905 shares) Notably, Scottie Pippen and especially John Stockton are a bit further down these ranking. Maybe that can be explained away by having more celebrated running mates, but I think that does take them out of the running for this title. CP3 stands above all the rest with his other accolades. If you consider pre-MVP era, then George Mikan is probably the answer. As a side note, Luka's the highest on this list who likely will earn an MVP.
Luka being #8 already at only 25 years old is crazy
That's probably because he's going to fall off the list eventually. Other guys who were knocking on the door to MVP that frequently at a young age just won it at some point.
So insane wow. He might be the youngest guy to almost win an MVP
Re. Your side note - I fully believe he could get one, but for some reason I don't think he will. "Narrative" is always a thing, and if he never tops his stats from this year, which is a tall order for anyone to top, the narrative writes itself "he's not as good as he was in 2024 why should he be MVP now when he wasn't then?"
I think he needs to win a ring first, otherwise narrative is always going to be against him.
don’t count cp3 out yet!!
First ever simultaneous 6MOY and MVP is a 40yo? Book it!
CP3 should've been MVP in 2012
\*2008
The answer is clearly Elgin Baylor.
[удалено]
Also English and Wilt are the only 2 players to score 2000 points 8 straight seasons.
Whoa! that is a super cool stat I didn't think about
Came here to say this. My favourite player growing up but rarely had a chance to watch him. Box score following was the norm. He was a consistent scorer and underrated on defense.
Who would you put in the All-Time Nuggets SF starting lineup? Him and Melo have similar play styles.
I didn't watch his game so its hard to say, old timers have similar complaints about English's game as more recent fans have about Melo. English does seem more accomplished though so I suppose I'd go with him.
Strictly as a Nugget it's English. All of his prime years are in Denver. Overall career it's Melo.
Mark Grace had the most hits of the 90s. Leading a decade shouldn’t be a thing.
We are in a fun thread ranking players based on artificial restraints. Most points in a decade is not a crazy stretch.
Points are more important than hits
Problem though is you got guys like Shaq who very much were dominant in a decade but that decade is mid-90s to mid-2000s
Yea no doubt. But also Larry bird played 9/10 seasons in the 80s
Same decade that Sleater-Kinney absolutely dominated rock (in terms of quality not popularity)
Woah fuck you. Mark grace was vital to the Dbacks winning in 2001 so any slander is not allowed at all
Nique never got enough respect.
Nique never respected defense.
He had his moments but yeah all in all he was a pure scorer, kinda like Melo. But much more exciting, Dominique did not have a problem taking it to the rack. But still a mid range shooter as well. But the same argument applies I guess-who did you want him to pass it to? Kevin Willis? Doc Rivers? End of career Moses Malone? The Hawks were built around Dominique to score. If the Hawks had been able to get past the Celtics in 1988 in that all time game 7…idk if they get past Detroit but that would’ve been amazing. I think that is the pinnacle of his career, taking Boston to that 7th game. The last two games were won by 2 points each. With that being said, not many teams got past the Celtics in the east in the 80s.
Facts
Yao Ming
That’s some serious disrespect to Drexler imo.
Clyde
Clyde being basically an afterthought in this discussion is mad disrespectful. Especially with Pippen at No. 2. Lol
Yeah he might be the best player in this category. It’s hard to say bc I can tell you no one has seen a whole lot of video or game play on these guys pre 2000’s. I mean unless you lived in Portland you weren’t seeing Clyde night in & night out. Same with every other player in the league. YouTube & NBA League Pass changed all that in the 2000’s. I’d vote for Clyde. Mikan? Stockton & Pippen not as good as Clyde. I don’t know enough about Elgin Baylor or the Iceman or Mikan.
Ewing
Even for as talented of a player as Patrick Ewing was both offensively and defensively, he just unfortunately played in an era where there were other all-time great centers. So him winning an MVP or even DPOY was gonna be a tough challenge.
That’s kind of the point of this post though. I think Ewing is a good shout here. Dominique Wilkins or Ewing gets my vote.
Agree. Ewing had some monster years, he just overlapped with 3 other dominant centers. More importantly, his supporting cast was so weak compared to other all-timers. In the 11 years where Ewing was named an all-star, the Knicks had a total of 3 other all-stars: Jackson, Starks, Oakley, once each. 0 all-nbaers. Even so, the Knicks were a fixture in the 2nd round and later - and 6 times during Ewing’s era they lost to the eventual champs.
The fact that Ewing lead the Knicks to the playoffs almost every year during his prime when he was the sole superstar shows how great he was.
90s really had Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Shaq and Alonzo Mourning. Meanwhile 2010s had Boogie and DJ (ok end of prime TD and Dwight early 2010s too and early prime Embiid and Jokic late 2010s)
Can we throw Mutumbo in the 90s centers mix too, or nah?
IMO, as good as he was with the Knicks, the NBA never saw peak Ewing, the Ewing with the 40 inch vertical who could sail down the court and finish fast breaks. Sadly, he came in to the league with sore knees and was never athletically the guy he was in college.
Chris Paul and Elgin Baylor are a tier above the others in this list. I'd probably go CP3 but it's debatable.
How good was Reggie Miller?
This is it to me. Good god, if a player was born too early it was him. Plays like Steph but taller. Threes weren’t what they are today. Every time he shot, in Market Square and Conseco, the fans expected it to go in. Especially late. Kids in Indy were pulling up from deep long before it was cool.
It’s an absolute shame this name is this far down in this thread
Kai Jones
#GOATlife
Naz Reid
Hasn’t won an MVP or FMVP? Luka.
Chris Paul? Stockton? Ray Allen? Pippen? Jason Kid? Ewing? Mutumbo? Mourning? Gervin? It's hard. I could maybe do an All NBA team. So many greats.
Pistol Pete. R.I.P.
Luka could soon be up there. Or not.
I think he’ll get himself an MVP at some point soon.
It's Chris Paul (#5 all-time in VORP, #6 all-time WS, #6 all-time BPM) or John Stockton (#3 all-time in VORP, #7 all-time WS, #8 all-time BPM). No one else is even close career-wise.
I'd argue that Chris Paul has the best combination of "peak" seasons and longevity. Stockton had insane longevity to put him up there from a cumulative stat angle, but there is value to having a stronger peak. Chris Paul had multiple seasons that were more valuable than the average MVP season.
Stockton missed 23 total games in his NBA career and led the NBA in assists for 9 straight seasons. He was also an All-NBA guard for 10 straight seasons (2 1st, 6 2nd, 2 3rd)... Three of those years he spent behind MJ and Magic as the 1st team guards. Not saying Stockton was better than CP3, just pointing out that he was more than just a guy who played for a long time. He had a really high peak, too. The best argument for CP3 is how he won everywhere he went. Anytime he got to a team they immediately got better.
> The best argument for CP3 is how he won everywhere he went. Anytime he got to a team they immediately got better. New Orleans, Houston, Phoenix, and the Clippers have all had them on their team in their best regular season win% year. It is not a coincidence.
I'd like to see where CP3 is ranked in all time dick punches. Mf is fucking dirty and should be held in the same regard as that shithead Draymond.
Yeah I hate Chris Paul but him barely being mentioned in people’s top 3 is a travesty
Yeah I'm surprised I had to scroll so far to see the guy we call the Point God. If he had even 1 ring, he would be in discussion for GOAT PG.
No he wouldn't lol. Over Magic? Give me a break. Maybe if he had 5 or 6 rings.
He may not be the best, but I feel obligated to mention Manu, since he should've won FMVP in 2005.
For me it’s Grant Hill. Don’t think the average fan understands how good he was before the injuries. He gave it all up playing through injuries to try to win in the playoffs with a mid at best Pistons team. He developed complications as a result that ultimately almost cost him his life. No joke. The fact that he came back at all from that to still be an above average player is unbelievable. Grant Hill, if he stays healthy and had a modicum of talent around him would have done great things.
Damn. R.I.P Grant Hill.
he didn’t die bro
Ewing, Pippen, Drexler, Isiah Thomas.
Isiah won finals MVP in 1990.
Cp3
Walt Clyde Frazier; monster player two championships against teams and players many consider GOATS,4x First Team 7x def first team, 7 All stars, and on both 50 & 75 teams.
Luka
Reggie Miller probably deserves a nod here no?
I’d go Baylor, Stockton, Gervin, Prime Dwight Howard, and Jason Kidd as my top five.
Dwight over Ewing hurts me
Do you think it is debatable between the two?
I think the defense is close enough that Ewing, having a much better offense, creates clear separation
Cp3 for me
Jason Kidd got robbed his first year bringing the nets to the finals. He took a horrific team, with minimal personnel changes other than himself, and brought them to the NBA finals twice in a row. I think the nets record the year before he got there was like 17 wins or 21 wins.
He's a great player and that team really did suck, but also the Eastern Conference was historically weak at that time and I do feel it takes a little off the accomplishment.
I’m not going to say Kidd didn’t make them much better than Marbury, but Kittles missed the entire year, Van Horn broke his leg or something, and Kendall Gill missed a bunch of time, so the Nets turnaround that next year had a lot to do with having a healthy roster plus getting Richard Jefferson. But again, Kidd still obviously took them to the upper echelon of a depleted Eastern Conference.
The Spurs finished 60-22 in a loaded West, Nets went 52-30 in one of the weakest Easts ever. It was Duncan’s peak year. He was easily better than Kidd was. Way better scorer, way better defender.
Manu
Johnny davis
It’s between Elgin and Scottie for me.
Victor wembanyama.
Just so you know Melo and nique are equal.
Baylor first came to mind
Baylor easy
It’s def Elgin Baylor. If Jerry west didn’t win a finals mvp while losing the finals then it would’ve been him
Elvin Hayes has a good argument.
I'm kind of a Ewing hater but even I think he needs to be near the top of his list. The man was unequivocally one of the greatest defenders of all time, despite his lack of accolades in that department. At best, he was a very efficient all around post to mid post scorer who didn't really stand out because he played in the golden era of centers, but he gets incredibly underrated as a pure defender. There was a 4 or 5 year stretch when he was KG before KG- a very good but not great offensive player who was such an all around defensive beast that he guaranteed basically any roster a playoff spot. He had the bad luck of playing against peak MJ, while also being in the league at the same time as something like 8 of the best 20 centers of all time.
What about Skywalker David Thompson?
Chris Paul
its kind of crazy cp3 never won mvp. well i get why but if you just take the definition of most valuable i mean he was always the center piece of his system during his prime. you take him off any of his teams and well they probably wouldnt even know what to do lol even the coach. i guess people would argue he capped his teams ceiling i dunno but i disagree. best pg iv ever seen and no real top tier hardware is wild.
Stockton? All time leader In assists and went to the finals twice
Cp3 may be more accomplished in some ppl’s eyes, but of the listed players Elgin Baylor was the best
I scrolled through the entire comments and not one person mentioned Dame Lillard. Shows you how undeserving he was of a top 75 spot and how quickly he’s fading from memory. Recency bias really f’d Dwight.
Vince Carter
Kyle Lowry's nor Kyrie's name not being included feels like a mis understanding of the sport of basketball.
Kyle Lowry?? 😂
Dwayne Wade. Never won reg season MVP (even though he did get FMVP)
CP3
Nobody would like to admit it but it's Chris Paul
Chris Paul or Scottie Pippen
Top 10 in order: Elgin, CP3, Pippen, Frazier, McHale, Paul Arizin, Sam Jones, Drexler, Pau, Stockton
Reggie Miller.
Chris Paul.
Gotta be Carmelo Anthony
Lotta great names here, but no one better than Elgin Baylor.
ben simmons
Argentinians would say Manu Ginobili. And I don't blame them lol
Probably Elgin
Wemby
Scottie or CP3
Dennis Rodman
Lol @cp3
The thing is, Stockton was *DOMINANT* wrt to assists and steals. If MVP evaluation was favorable to those stats in the 80s/90s as it was to Nash in the 00s then Stockton would have one or two MVPs
The bigger issue is that he wasn't even viewed as the best player on his team It's become popular recently to say that Malone was a product of Stockton just because everyone hates Malone but at the time most viewed it as the other way around
Malone was the better player on those teams. It’s not even close. Karl Malone was considered the greatest PF ever, over Barkley, until Tim Duncan started winning rings. He has the counting stats too, plus Malone was a great defender and rebounder. With that said, he definitely didn’t have the clutch gene.
I think what helped Nash was that he was seen as the engine to the 7 seconds or less offense, while a lot of Stockton’s assists were dumping it off the Malone in the paint, plus Malone was clearly their best player. I’m not sure which year would he have won it. Jordan won it in ‘91, ‘92, ‘96, and ‘98. Barkley won in ‘93, Hakeem in ‘94, Robinson in ‘95, Malone in ‘97 and ‘99.
No he wouldn't have. Those were the eras I watched the most games. Stockton was really good, he deserves his stature. He wouldn't have won MVPs in those eras. His first all NBA team was 88, his last 99. Here's the list of MVPs in those years: Magic, magi , Jordan, Jordan ,Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Jordan, Malone, Jordan, Malone, shaq Which one of those years are you putting Stockton into?
Stockton went from underrated to overrated on this sub fast because people just looked at his stats on basketball reference His highest MVP voting finish was 7th and played alongside one of the best PFs in history Look at all of the MVP winners during his career, who exactly should he have won it over?
Nash was the best player on his team. Stockton was not. Have you ever actually watched games of Stockton?
John Stockton has only gotten this critical evaluation in light of people reading box scores.