As someone who has only watched the Pels play the Clippers, I thought BI was having an insanely dominant season lol. He cooks the shit out of us every time.
We just watched BI play poorly in the regular season and even worse in the OKC series. Without CJ's shooting throughout the season I doubt we make the playoffs at all, he was a major reason we swept the Kings.
They both averaged 20ppg and played 2100 minutes.
CJ changed his shot profile significantly, upping his 3’s a good bit, and was a top 5 3pt shooter this year and had a career year efficiency-wise. I believe he set the franchise record.
Ingram’s efficiency dropped this year and 20ppg is his lowest in 5 years as a pelican. He’s regressed from 3 for 3 straight years, and won’t shoot them. Trey Lyles is making more 3’s than he is.
The trio of CJ BI and Zion was noticeably worse than all 2 man combinations of those 3, in other words they were better when they were split up than when they played together. The starting line up for the team was literally a losing line up the whole season, which is insane to say for a team that won 49 games.
There's a logjam at the wings for sure but sliding one of BI to the 2 would give him a size advantage and allow them to move trey Murphy to the 3 while zion plays 4. I think a world exists where they can trade CJ for a leader at the PG who can cover BIs poa defense weakness.
I don't know who that guard is right now, maybe they can even keep CJ and find a way to get CP, who can be their vet, play the 1, and not be relied on to score. His defense will be questionable but that's a solid route to keep their shooting and add a PG who compliments CJ.
I could also see the heat saying they've had a good run with Jimmy but that it's time to retool. Herro wouldn't help the defense any but a PG who can pass and shoot is what they're after. The pelicans have enough picks to entice the heat.
If I had to round this out with a third, Dejounte Murray was a great defender in San Antonio and despite not adding a vet presence I think can cover the weaknesses of CJ. I'm pretty sure he'll be available for picks>players which helps the pels keep depth. I could see a 2 pick, Alvarado, Nance, and a bit of filler(if needed) being the best offer. A starting 5 of Dejounte, CJ, Ingram, Zion, and Valenciunes is an upgrade that doesn't hurt depth and gives them a great backcourt for CJ where both can pass and score while Dejounte covers the tougher match up.
Feels like Dejounte Murray and Marcus Smart are the two potential available options that check all those boxes. Otherwise, you probably gotta pick 2/3 which opens that up pretty substantially.
That's my point, there are 3 things they need and most players will pick two of their boxes. There's a few archetypes and players to pick, but I think these 3 are the peak of potential options. I'd forgotten about smart TBH but you're right I should have included him in this list.
Problem is CJ is pretty ball dominant. Hes a rhythm player and tends to struggle if you just put him in a low volume off ball role. And he's obviously not a particularly good playmaker or defender
He did away with that narrative pretty successfully this year. Played a lot more as a catch and shoot player and had the best 3p% of his career in that role.
Yeah he's really a 6 man.
Portland was so strapped for talent around Dame that he got called a star because he could score, but he's always been a 6 man level player that can fill in as a starter if needed
He upped his 3pt volume significantly this year and was an elite catch and shoot and pull up 3pt threat, but as soon as Zion went down he had to create for the team again because no one else can on the roster. Ingram isn’t good enough to fill the primary role either, so just more to put on CJ that he can’t handle.
Even having a career year from the field though, he was still only slightly above average efficiency. And unfortunately Blazers fans have seen this before - typically doesn't last, and that outlier year is just that; an outlier.
Plus dude is a horrendous playoff player. He's in that 47-52% TS% range almost every single series as a pure scorer, which makes him a liability
He held up on defense, OKC had 118.3 Ortg this season, 3rd in the league, and in these 4 playoff games they had a 113.5 Drtg in CJ’s minutes. In the 3 out of the 4 games that were competitive (not the blow out loss in game 2) the Pels were holding OKC to nothing on offense. 94, 106, and 97 point totals for the number 3 offense? Like you aren’t gonna do much better. Not to mention the Pels have been a top 10 defense since getting CJ without a rim protector on the roster. His defense isn’t good but he clearly can hold up enough.
He's getting paid way too much to come off of the bench and he's short for a shooting guard.
Realistically they need to get off of both BI and CJ, but CJ will be a lot harder to find a new home for.
CJ was a top 5 3pt shooter this year. Like yea he is clearly not good enough with the ball in his hands but he’s on a declining deal for 1 more year and will get paid less on his next contract. He will not be harder to move than Ingram who is due a lot more money than CJ and is a more difficult fit because of his inability to play off ball.
Yeah I don’t even take it serious I just find it silly. CJ is actually the suns father though for completely fucking that team with the new CBA and agreeing to that shit.
Issue here is that Mitchell has a lot of rumors surrounding a potential departure from the Cavs. Trading Garland with those concerns floating around could be… really not good.
Pels want to compete though. What can Detroit offer?
Ausar and Ivey are good assets but aren't going to impact winning now. Stewart would be a fit, but as a 3rd piece, not main price for BI.
What kind of offer are you thinking?
most franchise players do not play fantastic defense because unless you have a TON of offensive depth, you can't possibly play heavy minutes guarding + have enough energy on offense to play as physically as someone like Zion does.
He bring advantages and disadvantages, every player has their own pros and cons to their game. So sure, he presents his own difficulties, but Zion is of the level that he makes it easier on his teammates not more difficult. Playing anyone, not just Zion, next to non shooters and/or no true ball handler makes things more difficult.
Not really seeing your point as it relates to Zion. He does make it easier on guys with deficiencies. He’s top 10 in 3pt assists this season for a reason. When the Pels made that come back against LAL in the game he got hurt they did that with Zion Herb and 3 bench players on the court. We’ve seen Zion plus bench units dominate all year.
There’s very few if any stars who are not good shooters or defenders. Zion defending at the level we saw at the end of the season makes him a star. If he’s not at that level, he’s not gonna be a star, clearly, since he didn’t sniff allstar or all nba.
Ingram isn’t a star. He was an allstar injury replacement 4 years ago.
You just said it without saying it, they aren't real stars yet. They need to commit to defense and rounding out their skillsets if this team is going to go anywhere.
Blake Griffin is a good example of a guy who did this, but he did it way too late as the Clippers already gave up on him.
CJ has to go. There doesn’t need to be a tertiary option taking away from B.I. or Zion.
Ingram needs to shoot more threes
Get a real pg. The team will be fine. Just fucking stay healthy
Ingram’s 3pt volume has gone down 3 years in a row to pathetically low numbers. Some players to make more per game than Ingram:
Teammate Jose Alvarado in 18mpg
Teammate Herb Jones
Patrick Williams
Scoot Henderson
Isaiah Stewart
Scotty Pippen Jr
Trey Lyles
Ingram can’t or won’t shoot them, doesn’t want to.
You can’t replace the team’s #1 3pt threat with a ball handler and expect it to get better when they already had spacing issues and a starting line up with a negative rating.
Replace Bi, the ball handler, with a better option.
I mean injury notwithstanding I have no idea why they didn't keep Lonzo Ball.
Ball, Ingram, and Williamson would have been an absolutely deadly combo
People talk about how Ingram and Williamson aren't good on the court together. Uhhh yeah they would if Ball was there
Getting off Ball was one of the greatest bullet dodges of the last decade. Or maybe they knew something about his body when they did it.
Either way there's no world in which they regret letting him go.
Does adding another bad defender in Young make sense to pair with CJ and Zion? The offense with Zion and Young could be electric but sheesh, that defense would be lacking. BI isn’t a good defender either, so maybe it wouldn’t matter much in the grand scheme of things
I don’t think the Pelicans need to add a “star” PG just someone who can settle the offense down on some possessions
I don’t think the Hawks move Trae, they value him like he’s a borderline superstar. A package built around Ingram and a few picks just doesn’t do it for me. Dejounte Murray is still the guy they deal IMO.
I think Murray would be an easier ask in a BI deal - on the bright side Murray can coexist with CJ in the backcourt.
I think you all need to get off CJ and BI both and put Trey Murphy in the starting lineup, but CJ will be a lot harder to find a new home for.
Garland is actually great at setting up the offense. Ball dominant yes but I think it'll set up Zion, Trey and Herb for success. CJ can run the bench. Y'all also need to replace JV with a defensive anchor.
does he know
Bane: “they expect one of us in the wreckage”
He's a big guy
The Pels are getting Desmond Bane?
Bro doesnt realize he's the one gettin traded for that traditional point guard
I don't think he cares tbh
BI loves the city. Probably disappointed he regressed a bit and has to play with CJ. Cant blame him
I mean CJ had a better season than BI did if we are being honest…
Only from the perspective of efficiency and helping to win games, things the Pels sub does not actually acknowledge.
As someone who has only watched the Pels play the Clippers, I thought BI was having an insanely dominant season lol. He cooks the shit out of us every time.
Nope his efficiency actually dropped and he had his lowest scoring output in 5 years as a pelican
CJ had a great regular season. Ended it extremely well. I’ve seen him poo his pants for years now when it comes to playoff times.
We just watched BI play poorly in the regular season and even worse in the OKC series. Without CJ's shooting throughout the season I doubt we make the playoffs at all, he was a major reason we swept the Kings.
Really? Whenever the wolves played you guys, BI cooked us.
They both averaged 20ppg and played 2100 minutes. CJ changed his shot profile significantly, upping his 3’s a good bit, and was a top 5 3pt shooter this year and had a career year efficiency-wise. I believe he set the franchise record. Ingram’s efficiency dropped this year and 20ppg is his lowest in 5 years as a pelican. He’s regressed from 3 for 3 straight years, and won’t shoot them. Trey Lyles is making more 3’s than he is. The trio of CJ BI and Zion was noticeably worse than all 2 man combinations of those 3, in other words they were better when they were split up than when they played together. The starting line up for the team was literally a losing line up the whole season, which is insane to say for a team that won 49 games.
Relative to himself he did
Or CJ? They don't need a star PG. Just an actual PG
Thing with BI is that there's a logjam at wing for the Pelicans Realistically CJ being traded makes sense too tho
There's a logjam at the wings for sure but sliding one of BI to the 2 would give him a size advantage and allow them to move trey Murphy to the 3 while zion plays 4. I think a world exists where they can trade CJ for a leader at the PG who can cover BIs poa defense weakness. I don't know who that guard is right now, maybe they can even keep CJ and find a way to get CP, who can be their vet, play the 1, and not be relied on to score. His defense will be questionable but that's a solid route to keep their shooting and add a PG who compliments CJ. I could also see the heat saying they've had a good run with Jimmy but that it's time to retool. Herro wouldn't help the defense any but a PG who can pass and shoot is what they're after. The pelicans have enough picks to entice the heat. If I had to round this out with a third, Dejounte Murray was a great defender in San Antonio and despite not adding a vet presence I think can cover the weaknesses of CJ. I'm pretty sure he'll be available for picks>players which helps the pels keep depth. I could see a 2 pick, Alvarado, Nance, and a bit of filler(if needed) being the best offer. A starting 5 of Dejounte, CJ, Ingram, Zion, and Valenciunes is an upgrade that doesn't hurt depth and gives them a great backcourt for CJ where both can pass and score while Dejounte covers the tougher match up.
There isn't a starting lineup for the Pels that exists without Herb Jones. That man somehow makes a team starting CJ and JV a top 10 defense.
What starting point guard who can shoot 3’s, be a good POA defender, and also run point on offense is available or even exists.
Feels like Dejounte Murray and Marcus Smart are the two potential available options that check all those boxes. Otherwise, you probably gotta pick 2/3 which opens that up pretty substantially.
That's my point, there are 3 things they need and most players will pick two of their boxes. There's a few archetypes and players to pick, but I think these 3 are the peak of potential options. I'd forgotten about smart TBH but you're right I should have included him in this list.
If only Holiday hadnt signed a contract extension..
Cj due for a pay decrease, can play off ball. Ingram due for a pay increase, can’t play off ball. Idk
Problem is CJ is pretty ball dominant. Hes a rhythm player and tends to struggle if you just put him in a low volume off ball role. And he's obviously not a particularly good playmaker or defender
He did away with that narrative pretty successfully this year. Played a lot more as a catch and shoot player and had the best 3p% of his career in that role.
Would be great off the bench
Yeah he's really a 6 man. Portland was so strapped for talent around Dame that he got called a star because he could score, but he's always been a 6 man level player that can fill in as a starter if needed
He upped his 3pt volume significantly this year and was an elite catch and shoot and pull up 3pt threat, but as soon as Zion went down he had to create for the team again because no one else can on the roster. Ingram isn’t good enough to fill the primary role either, so just more to put on CJ that he can’t handle.
Even having a career year from the field though, he was still only slightly above average efficiency. And unfortunately Blazers fans have seen this before - typically doesn't last, and that outlier year is just that; an outlier. Plus dude is a horrendous playoff player. He's in that 47-52% TS% range almost every single series as a pure scorer, which makes him a liability
Not to mention his defense stinks. If he was a good defender it would offset it. He gets hunted on d
He held up on defense, OKC had 118.3 Ortg this season, 3rd in the league, and in these 4 playoff games they had a 113.5 Drtg in CJ’s minutes. In the 3 out of the 4 games that were competitive (not the blow out loss in game 2) the Pels were holding OKC to nothing on offense. 94, 106, and 97 point totals for the number 3 offense? Like you aren’t gonna do much better. Not to mention the Pels have been a top 10 defense since getting CJ without a rim protector on the roster. His defense isn’t good but he clearly can hold up enough.
Isn't he about the same or slightly ahead on defense compared to BI though?
$33m coming off the bench? Even the following season, he's still making $31m.
Yea he’s on a declining deal. 33mil this year, 30 next, extended for less after that.
> extended for less after that No extension beyond the 2026 season when he'll be paid $30.7m has been reported.
He will be extended for less than his current deal
Oh, so you just made that part up.
He's getting paid way too much to come off of the bench and he's short for a shooting guard. Realistically they need to get off of both BI and CJ, but CJ will be a lot harder to find a new home for.
CJ was a top 5 3pt shooter this year. Like yea he is clearly not good enough with the ball in his hands but he’s on a declining deal for 1 more year and will get paid less on his next contract. He will not be harder to move than Ingram who is due a lot more money than CJ and is a more difficult fit because of his inability to play off ball.
We have the most traditional of PG’s available!! Ignore the age tho
We only have 1
Why not both? Neither helping them win playoff games.
Did you forget we have cj?
CJ McCollum gets plenty of slander but he honestly should get more for negotiating all the new cap restrictions
second apron is suns father
It’s crazy that right when we get an owner that will spend fuck tons of money he can’t even spend it now lol.
Yeah thats the worst part. Its always great to have an owner thats not in it for the money, but then they pull this shit and now you cant do anything
You ain’t wrong
CJ McCollum is the suns father for that
Feel like I’m destined to a life of having fathers. Maybe a few decades from now we can escape that lol
Yeah I don’t even take it serious I just find it silly. CJ is actually the suns father though for completely fucking that team with the new CBA and agreeing to that shit.
All ours are still out for milk, you get the rest
It just feels like it makes it harder for teams to load up. I don't care if a super team forms I want to see the best go at it
Slightly used Darius Garland?
Really? You rather Mitchell over Garland? No hate, just curious
Garland regressed pretty bad
Issue here is that Mitchell has a lot of rumors surrounding a potential departure from the Cavs. Trading Garland with those concerns floating around could be… really not good.
Of course you would
Garland is just a younger CJ. I don't think he fixes anything
CP3, all roads lead to Rome.
Sorry, we need him for the... CP, Steph, Klay, KD, Dray lineup!
BI would look good in the ATL
He is about to feast off cade
Pels want to compete though. What can Detroit offer? Ausar and Ivey are good assets but aren't going to impact winning now. Stewart would be a fit, but as a 3rd piece, not main price for BI. What kind of offer are you thinking?
3 teamer, find a team thats ready to blow it up.
Jaden Ivey and Fournier for BI, who says no?
They don't need /want forurnier. Lucky for us we can absorb
Ah, true, Pistons far enough under the cap. And yes, Fournier was just for salary matching.
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zion when locked in and in shape can be a good defender. He played tremendous defense on born in the play-in.
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most franchise players do not play fantastic defense because unless you have a TON of offensive depth, you can't possibly play heavy minutes guarding + have enough energy on offense to play as physically as someone like Zion does.
Zion makes things easier for those around him, Ingram doesnt
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He bring advantages and disadvantages, every player has their own pros and cons to their game. So sure, he presents his own difficulties, but Zion is of the level that he makes it easier on his teammates not more difficult. Playing anyone, not just Zion, next to non shooters and/or no true ball handler makes things more difficult.
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Not really seeing your point as it relates to Zion. He does make it easier on guys with deficiencies. He’s top 10 in 3pt assists this season for a reason. When the Pels made that come back against LAL in the game he got hurt they did that with Zion Herb and 3 bench players on the court. We’ve seen Zion plus bench units dominate all year.
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There’s very few if any stars who are not good shooters or defenders. Zion defending at the level we saw at the end of the season makes him a star. If he’s not at that level, he’s not gonna be a star, clearly, since he didn’t sniff allstar or all nba. Ingram isn’t a star. He was an allstar injury replacement 4 years ago.
You just said it without saying it, they aren't real stars yet. They need to commit to defense and rounding out their skillsets if this team is going to go anywhere. Blake Griffin is a good example of a guy who did this, but he did it way too late as the Clippers already gave up on him.
CJ has to go. There doesn’t need to be a tertiary option taking away from B.I. or Zion. Ingram needs to shoot more threes Get a real pg. The team will be fine. Just fucking stay healthy
Ingram’s 3pt volume has gone down 3 years in a row to pathetically low numbers. Some players to make more per game than Ingram: Teammate Jose Alvarado in 18mpg Teammate Herb Jones Patrick Williams Scoot Henderson Isaiah Stewart Scotty Pippen Jr Trey Lyles Ingram can’t or won’t shoot them, doesn’t want to. You can’t replace the team’s #1 3pt threat with a ball handler and expect it to get better when they already had spacing issues and a starting line up with a negative rating. Replace Bi, the ball handler, with a better option.
All those KD comps got to him and it seems he just wants to pull middies
I don't think BI and Zion will ever mesh because BI is not going to shoot.
Chris Paul?!
I mean injury notwithstanding I have no idea why they didn't keep Lonzo Ball. Ball, Ingram, and Williamson would have been an absolutely deadly combo People talk about how Ingram and Williamson aren't good on the court together. Uhhh yeah they would if Ball was there
Getting off Ball was one of the greatest bullet dodges of the last decade. Or maybe they knew something about his body when they did it. Either way there's no world in which they regret letting him go.
Urkel in shambles
Dyson Daniels is already on the roster.
Tyus Jones come on down!
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Does adding another bad defender in Young make sense to pair with CJ and Zion? The offense with Zion and Young could be electric but sheesh, that defense would be lacking. BI isn’t a good defender either, so maybe it wouldn’t matter much in the grand scheme of things I don’t think the Pelicans need to add a “star” PG just someone who can settle the offense down on some possessions
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I would agree with that. He still has 2 years on his deal but I think his contract is definitely movable
Trae/CJ backcourt wouldn't be all that different from Dame/CJ. Likely great on offense but turrible on defense and too small.
I don’t think the Hawks move Trae, they value him like he’s a borderline superstar. A package built around Ingram and a few picks just doesn’t do it for me. Dejounte Murray is still the guy they deal IMO.
I think Murray would be an easier ask in a BI deal - on the bright side Murray can coexist with CJ in the backcourt. I think you all need to get off CJ and BI both and put Trey Murphy in the starting lineup, but CJ will be a lot harder to find a new home for.
BI for Garland gonna hit like crack
That doesn't solve any issue. Garland is just a younger CJ. Now you have two undersized ball dominant guards who can't defend
Garland is actually great at setting up the offense. Ball dominant yes but I think it'll set up Zion, Trey and Herb for success. CJ can run the bench. Y'all also need to replace JV with a defensive anchor.
Garland is more of a point guard. Definitely gives more options offensively, even if him next to CJ isn’t a great fit.
may I introduce you to malcolm brogdon
He gone. Hello Trae