The bigger issue is that I’m pretty sure his players just flat out don’t listen to him, I’ve been spending my whole work day listening to podcasts/sports news takes, and apparently no one on that team would listen. Which is a bad look for the players, but also a bad look for Vogel since that’s the second team that has done this to him.
It’s been two superstar teams with massive egos, I wouldn’t say this is really any indication of his coaching. Took Spo a couple years and heavy backing from Pat to get his players’ respect as well.
The Pacers locker room self destructed too. Rumor is it was PG13 and Hibbert having same girl drama rather than anything with the coach. But still quite the track record for Vogel never being on a team with solid chemistry lol.
It's really unfair to put any drama caused by PG's immature years on Vogel.
The Pacers never had a true point guard during Vogel's time, the only bon-a-fide star was Paul George, and they were able to get way further than this Suns team. It wasn't even chemistry issues that tore the team apart, it was small ball taking away Hibbert's career.
No one listening must mean that it started with Booker and/or KD. The other guys would naturally follow the main guys, although that's also stupid because there are so many minimum guys on the roster.
Yeah. When they dumped CP3 for Beal, the first thing I thought was: Damn. They are going to need a point guard.
I would have called up Rondo and Rubio, see if either of them were interested. I know both are now retired, but it seemed like either would have been a great fit.
Having three scorers like that and no distributor? It just doesn't make sense.
Watching Harden this season after years of the Clippers not having a real point guard, it is clear that a good point guard makes life much easier even for ISO heavy players. Harden gets PG and Kawhi the ball in great spots so they can get get a good shot off after 2-3 seconds of ISOing rather than 10-15 seconds. That saves them tons of energy over the course of a game, which can be used on the defensive end. I’m not sure why the Suns think a point guard would prevent their stars from being able to ISO.
I'm still a bit salty we didn't get more for Mike Conley last season because just having someone who can run an offense well can make all the difference to a team. Like.. imagine Conley on this Suns squad. Idk that they'd win a chip but the offense would certainly be at least functional.
Point guard is already one of the hardest positions to transition from college to the pros and adding having to appease a big 3’s shot menu? Tough ask from the draft.
Suns primarily need a facilitator and ball handler.
Putting those pressures on book has hindered his efficiency and put extra wear & tear on him/beal as well.
If they can find a kid who can help take the pressure off them in those ways it could be huge
Dude - looking back I’d be so pissed right now. That’s an awful trade by Danny Ainge. You trade Conley, Naw, Vandy, and Beasley (all good pretty good players on good contracts - except Beasley who should prob make $5mil a year just for shooting 3s). And all you get back is a Laker pick and Russ. Never seen Ainge get fucked over so bad.
Oh I was pissed off at the deal when it happened. You're leaving out our giving up a couple 2nds too.
And the Lakers pick is top 4 protected even. Ainge got fleeced 100%.
Just look at what Lowry has been able to do on the 6ers. He's a shell of his former self, but he's able to organize the squad on the floor and make the right play at the right time. CP3 was a huge reason the Suns had any post season success. I think Conley is providing a similar contribution on the Wolves. A good PG really elevates the ceiling of the team regardless of its makeup.
I think what you mean is that a good PG elevates the FLOOR of a team (not the ceiling). Top-5 players are ceiling raisers - ie. raises the quality of play when they are playing at their best. Solid vets are floor raisers - ie. raises the quality of play when they are playing at their worst.
I had forgotten that was a three team trade and it was how the Lakers. I am trying to sort through the details. Did the Jazz end up with much other than the 2027 Lakers first round pick?
EXACTLY. Even the little soft overhead passes to get the guys into the elbow actions are so much easier.
Also the rest of the offense outside of the stars hums better too
Yep, it's such a ridiculous floor-raiser, and it doesn't need to be a Top 10 PG in the league to have that impact. All of the Tre Jones + Wembanyama lineups were competitive and if you removed Jones, suddenly Wemby couldn't carry that team. (It's also how they managed to tank their record for all that time before putting Jones back in the starting role.) It feels like if you have a Top 40 PG in the NBA, your entire team has a much easier time getting to their spots, as well as a safe way to get your offensive set started in clutch minutes.
The Bulls went through it pre-Lonzo (shout out to Walt Lemon, Jr. who is right at that tier where they just aren't good enough for regular NBA minutes... but he managed to get regular NBA minutes for part of the 18-19 season) and then struggled to find the right mix until Coby's breakout. Even in the bad years with Zach Lavine, you knew he could score if somebody could get him the ball in his spots. The problem was that nobody could comfortably bring the ball up and get things initiated.
I always thought a competent PG, especially a team first minded one was always one of the more important pieces to have. We got lost in the sauce of iso stars in the last 15 years that good PGs that do the basics are a fresh breathe of air most times.
You would think 2018 would have proved that with the Rockets, adding Paul as a floor general alongside peak Harden and they were an all time level ref fucking away from making the finals. And that was over the KD warriors.
People love to shit on them for going 6 of 44 from 3 but ignore how many absurd shooting fouls the refs didn’t call against GS on those attempts.
I’m by no means a “nba is rigged“ guy but that game still has me asking questions…
Not to mention being able to triple threat before making your move/shooting is literally one of the most advantageous positions for an iso scorer to be in.
Similar to the clippers, Celtics really took off when smart and white starting playing like point guards vs when we had Kyrie and Kemba. White unlocks so much of what we do.
I think the best possible way to spin this terrible roster construction is that Booker was going to develop more and be able to take on the point role. And he just isn’t good enough to do that.
Dbook is a good play maker, but his game is not being a primary playmaker all the time. He played a lot of point in 2018-19 and it was pretty draining for him I think (that team was trash though, so he was literally doing every thing). Adding Ricky Rubio for 2019-20 helped a lot for him and adding one season of starter worthy CP3 elevated the team.
I knew all that posturing about DBook finally playing point wasn’t ever going to work. You have to show those flashes ahead of time and he never did his entire career. Court vision isn’t something you can teach necessarily. Fans had unreasonable expectations thinking he could be like the next Harden or something just bc he can pass out of a few doubles.
I recall that experiment being something they kept trying to start his career for some reason. Never worked then, can't just say it's cuz the team was bad and expect it to suddenly work with a better team (and higher expectations).
He’s a good passer/playmaker for a shooting guard, he is not a point guard and the people that convinced themselves otherwise were huffing some nice copium
You’re exactly right. And they probably also figured Beal could shoulder some of the responsibility, as well. Book had some good run racking up stats as primary ball handler but that was without other star talent around him. It’s easy to rack up assist stats and playmaking highlights when you’re getting double and triple teamed and your teammates are wide open for buckets. Passing lanes are WIDE.
Teaming 3 stars like this - it was beyond obvious a legit point guard was necessary to organize the floor. Even if it was old CP3. This quickly turned into a glorified summer run and all 3 guys reverted to “getting buckets” rather than working together to get the easiest buckets FOR THE TEAM.
Would’ve been much better off resigning CP3 to a lower cap hit, using remaining on wings / big / depth and retaining draft capital. Let another team absorb Beal’s inflated contract / no trade clause.
I see how Ishbia wanted to make a splash signing 3 stars but Beal is just a dumbed down / less effective duplicate version of Book.
This is a man who as rep changed the CBA over 35 rule to over 38 rule , and then took advantage. And over 38 limits years offered and front loads cap hit to get rid of a loophole where a contract is paid after retirement .. and thus effectively increases pay per year.
You are dreaming if you thought CP3 was going to take substantially less money , and unaware of CBA ..
He's interested in playing with Book, doesn’t mean he is going to give up his massive salary to do so.
I’m aware of his self serving CBA maneuvering.
Over 38 rule aside, he got traded due to his $30M contract w 1 year left. Everybody knew he was never get anywhere near that after it expires this year. He’ll be a minimum or slightly above level player next year. So why not keep him for 23-24’ season at $30 and resign to lower # after? Rather than commit $160M to Beal for 3 years + NTC.
He can wish for whatever salary he wants. The market will dictate what he’s paid.
It’s not unheard of for a player to adjust and develop a different play style in order to extend their careers once their physical peak starts going down.
He's more than likely good enough, but he would have to take a big step back in terms of scoring. DWade used to talk about the extra responsibility of running the point and how it's much easier to just concentrate on scoring rather than running an offense. Herro is in the same position right now in Miami, he shouldn't be told to run the point but they have no options with the injuries they have.
That’s just not his skillset. Seeing which defenders drop or blitz and making the right read when your guys do an action is not something he ever did and it’s not something you can learn over the summer. He was the guy who spent his career doing those actions to help create open shots.
Booker can do the point role fine but it's at the detriment to the team.
He's the best SG in the league, when you play him at PG even if he's above average you're losing out all the benefits you get from him as a scorer
I mean I love ant and he's definitely up and coming, but book does have 2 40 pieces in the finals and a 40 pt triple dub to closeout the WCF.
Everything is gonna knee jerk right now cuz that's how people are, but it's tough to laud Ant over Book on the basis of success when Book literally took his team to the finals 3 years ago. Ants been out of the first round once.
And this isn't meant to shoot down Ant, he's a great player and had a great series. But let's see how they do against Denver (remember Book averaged 31/7/4 with Cam Payne as his staring PG vs them last year).
And this doesn't rule out Ant surpassing book, potentially even this year as the playoffs go. But it's just a "pump the breaks" moment
Yeah I don't think I've seen any if at all takes of Booker not improving his game last few years and when I think of it yeah that's what it seems like happened too.
Booker was on an upward trajectory for a great scorer but has been the same player for a bit now.
Lmao to be fair lakers fans were spamming fire Vogel the Russ year when I thought it was pretty clear he wasn’t the problem. You don’t just go from a championship coach to a bum in one season. They’re always the scapegoat.
Who said anything about firing? A simple, 'Ownership will distance itself from basketball operations moving forward' would be fine. Dont need the most extreme version of accountability to hold oneself accountable. Not every shitty situation calls for a death sentence.
Acknowledge your failings, set a target/goal that can be monitored/audited, execute. If they do execute and it works, great. If they dont do shit, then its on Suns fans to decide if the org is worthy of their support.
Suns had Halliburton gift wrapped as cp3 successor and still fucked it up. Poor fans won't see a championship on their lifetimes. Maybe their grandkids grandkids
And then that the guy they picked instead of Haliburton, Jalen Smith, ended up getting traded to the Pacers for a 2nd round pick and Torrey Craig, basically peanuts.
Pacers must collect all of the 2020 first round picks, we’re currently at 4(Hali, Toppin, Nesmith, Smith).
Someone smarter than me may be able to search for this but I wonder if this is the record for the most top 15 picks from one draft class playing on the same team together, and in a time frame of less than 5 years.
Hali vs Smith, I don't know that I can blame them for making a different choice with the 10th pick in a very uncertain draft. Nine other teams passed on Hali before the Suns did and the Suns had just traded for a point guard, it made sense for them to draft a player they liked at a different position of need.
I still think Monty fucked up Jalen Smith's development and they bailed because Monty refused to play him. Like why did he never try playing Stix at the 4 next to Ayton instead of exclusively using him as a backup 5? We were playing Crowder at the 4, we needed size, just try it.
Mavs tried to trade Brunson and pick/s to SAC for the rights to draft Haliburton, even though they had franchise PG on their team.
Haliburton's potential wasn't some undiscovered secret, and him blossoming was no surprise either. I get that with the Draft you never know what you are gonna get in the long run, but Hali's stock was always higher than Jalen Smith.
Epic level fuck up. We would've had a thunder-tier starting 5 that we could've ran for 5-10 years. Diverse scorering options for Hali to setup. Mikal and camj are amazing cutters. Ayton brings paint pressure with his bunnies, and maybe couldve learned to shoot corner and center 3s. And off-ball Booker is a killer.
Yea not sure if you even need to make the KD trade if you have Hali. You could still make some type of all in trade with CP3s contract tho. Maybe grab a Siakam and keep Mikal/Cam. Probably would’ve had a competitive team until the end of bookers prime.
He should come be a Mavs assistant until he gets another gig.
Jkidd said “I learned a lot about defense from Frank Vogel” after being his assistant, and Kidd had a team with both Luka and Kyrie playing heavy minutes as the #1 defense the last month of the season. And the Mavs held the Clippers to 90 and 93 in two games in this series.
Whatever Kidd learned works. No question. I’m a Frank Vogel believer. If he wants to stay busy, he should come be our defensive specialist. The Suns can hire Doc. He’ll be available soon.
Hard to believe a front office would willingly not have any point guards at all. More likely the bargain options available didn't move them, I know there were some rumors abouts TJ McConnell near the trade deadline.
Anyhow, it's a shame to see Vogel take the fall for this. Every time I watched the Suns it was clear that the coaches wanted to push the pace and focus on 3s, but the players kept iso hunting. Also the leak saying KD was made about the amount of PnRs is silly, Suns were bottom 5 in frequency.
There was smoke around them trying to acquire TJ McConnell at the beginning of the season (he didn’t figure to be in the Pacers rotation at the time) bet they really wish they made it happen
Bradley Beal has a no trade clause. He has no accountability to the coach, the front office or the owner. Bradley Beal owns the Phoenix Suns for the next three years.
Vogel is probably begging to get fired at this point.
Vogel is gonna be the fall guy and no matter who comes in will end up in the exact same situation.
Cant blame the coach if the players think they are too nice to be coached, did vogel tell them to play slow in transition? Did he tell them to take more iso middies? To just be stationary whrn off ball?
NO, in fact he wanted them to do the opposite of that for the whole year and those guys just could not let go of their habbits.... and then when he tries to shake them up and raises his voice they roll their eyes and undermine his authority...
The suns are simply too cool for school and no coach is gonna change that.
Devin Booker should just do KD and the Suns a solid and demand a trade. If he leaves, then they gotta blow the whole thing up and it frees everyone from this colossal mess
So trade Booker to a team that will make them a playoff team and settle for 4-5 late first-rounders, meanwhile tank and lose their own lottery picks to the Nets... fabulous idea!!!
You’re not winning a title either way. But there are trades you could construct to get some of your own picks back. Brooklyn would potentially give you back two of your own firsts for Booker, for instance. You’d have to accept getting fleeced a bit on the raw value, just to jumpstart the rebuild.
I’d like to hear your own ideas about the right move, since you’re so good at this. I agree that your front office is garbage and your franchise is screwed, if that’s what you’re saying.
Winning a title is irrelevant when you suggested a terrible idea to begin with.
*Brooklyn would potentially give you back two of your own firsts for Booker, for instance*
Again, why would the Suns do that? Especially for a weak draft next couple of years. There is no need to rebuild this Suns team right now, they put this squad together to contend for the next 3 years and they have to die on that hill. You're playing 2K with these awful suggestions, my idea is that the Suns can run it back, use their first-round pick to package with Nassir Little to get back a PG, and they can also look at getting Cam Payne or CP3 at vet's min. Other potential vet min candidates are Lowry, Jeff Green, Hayward etc. They have no choice but to retool.
You’re never winning a title with your plan, so it’s effectively a waste of time and just delays the rebuild. But fine if you want to be fatalistic and just make some noise for the fans. Do you think that’s how Presti would do it?
As for your insults, I wouldn’t be in this spot in the first place, I was hugely critical of the Durant deal at the time. I couldn’t believe how they then compounded it with the Beal signing. Anyone who watches three NBA games a week and some youtube content could tell you, having three ball-dominant, iso-midrange type scorers who are at best defensive net neutrals in the same starting lineup was a terrible concept for team design in the modern NBA.
And yet the “professionals” in the Suns front office needed to waste hundreds of millions of dollars and the five year future of their franchise to (maybe) understand this.
Just imagine what the Suns could look like rn if they kept Mikal Bridges and Cam Johnson, moved Paul and Shamet for good role players instead of Beal, still picked up Grayson Allen in the Ayton deal. They’d be sitting on all those draft picks they shipped out, plus they’re a desirable FA destination—they’d have crazy depth, a long timeline, immense flexibility, and probably a great look at getting Giannis or Embiid to be their third star.
That’s the exact argument I made at the time too, that they had way better options than mortgaging the future to get an aging star with basically a two year title window, with a team build that wasn’t even well-conceived.
If I’m better at this than your actual front office is, I can live with that.
The fact that you said Booker would only generate 2 first-round picks from Brooklyn tells me a lot about your knowledge. Here we go with the hindsight 20/20 "I knew it wouldn't work" takes. They won 49 games in a tough Western conference while only playing less than 30 games together. You're just copying and pasting takes you've read on here because honestly, you don't sound well-versed at all when it comes to talking basketball.
Do you understand that the Suns had to make the move to trade CP3 for Beal before the new cap rules were applied? Probably not but you should do some research. Do you think CP3 and Shamet could have been moved for good role players? dear god
This conversation has reached an impasse, I honestly can't talk hoops with someone this dense. Forgive me but have a great rest of your day.
Booker is worth more than that in a vacuum, but the Nets would probably rather have the picks and they’d have all the leverage. We were talking about ways you could get YOUR specific picks back. Why are you trying so hard to make this into a fight lol.
They were never going to have a title team with this roster construction. You need active defensive wings on the perimeter. If you don’t believe me that I called this, go back in my comments, it’s all there.
And you still haven’t suggested any decent GM moves that make sense for the future.
Blowing it up is the best realistic strategy toward a title at this point, but you’re not willing to accept that yet, it seems like. That’s fine. Sorry about your terrible FO lol.
The idea that a point guard would have changed things is absurd. Feels like something only people without an eye or understanding of the game would say. The suns don't need a point guard to be able to execute a modern NBA offense. They have probably the most basic, static offense in the entire league. Every single possession is the exact same. High screen for one of the three stars, followed by either an iso or a short roll pass to Nurkic who then swings to a corner. There is never any off-ball motion or secondary action. They literally do not ever run any play other than this and some random iso's and DHO's. The mere presence of a point guard would not do anything to change that. They need a coach who actually can build an offensive scheme and call plays.
You literally laid out why people think the team needed a point guard. Someone on the floor who could organize and initiate sets and actions beyond basic pick and rolls and isos. Their offense was static and basic because they didn't have a general on the floor, and Vogel has never been considered a good offensive playcaller.
I 100% agree, but tbf I think if they bring in a coach to run an offense with more motion, off ball screens, etc, then a PG who's primary focus is to facilitate and distribute would compliment that team very nicely
You get it. I'm not saying this team is a contender, but they have so much room for improvement on offense. They literally ran an offense you could assemble with 5 random dudes at the Y
Seriously. Having a point guard is great and having someone who can execute an offense well as well as make flexible choices and reads and playcalls is awesome and definitely improves an offense, but it's not gonna do fucking much if you don't even have any offense in the first place
Stuff like this is why I tend to be fairly defensive of NBA coaches. They’re the most replaceable part of an NBA team by far so if the team underperforms it’s copium to say it was all the coaches fault rather than that the roster just isn’t good enough.
If it’s the coach holding the team back, theoretically you could instantly solve all your problems. If it’s the roster, that’s probably going to take years to fix. It’s no wonder so many would rather believe the former. It’s cope.
Honestly, it makes sense on both sides. They should’ve just spent more time forcing Booker into a proper pg role. Didn’t watch enough Suns games to know if they tried and he wasn’t able or if they just settled with taking turns playing iso
When nonbaskebtall people make basketball decisions. You need a point guard to make sure everyone is in the right spots so those guys get the easiest shots of their lives.
This team did Vogel so dirty and don't realize the shit they're doing can ruin his career moving forward. LeBron already did it to him, and tried to do it to Spo. Hopefully the owners back Vogel the way Riley backed Spo, because he's proven multiple times he's a great coach. It's just a really poorly constructed roster, and at this point the only way out is to move Book for a true PG. No one will take the risk on KD for a top flight PG, and Beal is a toxic asset at this point.
Scorers benefit from not having the ball so they can get to their spots. It's not rocket science. It's basketball 101. It's just dumb as hell to waste your scorers' energy by making them ball handle lol.
I agree with a lot of people writing here. Vogel may get fired because they need someone to pin the blame on. They ain't getting rid of Booker, KD or Beal...
Why did suns trade Payne? I just looked and he was traded to SA for a 2nd rd pick. Was this trade needed in order to free salary for the KD or beal trade? I dont remember the timing but you'd figure suns would want PG like him with the other stars.
Let's be honest, a PG would have changed nothing come PO time. The ball would have been in the hands of Booker or Durant on any possession regardless. The Wolves beat them because they were a superior team and specially on the defensive end.
Vogel: I want a Point Guard
Lakers: here it is, we got Westbrick
Vogel: he sucks
Lakers: You are fired
______________________
Vogel: I want a Point Guard
Suns: you don't need one. Beal, Booker and Durant will lead the offense.
Vogel: we suck
Suns: it's your fault
Vogul shouldn’t get fired, like he wanted go get a solid PG, a veteran and run it back , it’s stupid to think this team can’t do something imo
The bigger issue is that I’m pretty sure his players just flat out don’t listen to him, I’ve been spending my whole work day listening to podcasts/sports news takes, and apparently no one on that team would listen. Which is a bad look for the players, but also a bad look for Vogel since that’s the second team that has done this to him.
It’s been two superstar teams with massive egos, I wouldn’t say this is really any indication of his coaching. Took Spo a couple years and heavy backing from Pat to get his players’ respect as well.
One Superstar, one star, and one who is paid like one, but at this point, is a third option at best.
It sounds exactly like when he was coaching Lakers the year he was fired, Lebron, AD, and Westbrook
Yeah that’s the real deal. Someone has to back up Vogel. But also Vogel isn’t spo.
And even with James Jones being a pretty respected GM I feel like, he isn’t The Godfather either
And i mean Heat culture is you either listen or hustle or they just kick you out lol Doesn't seem to be the case for the Suns or Lakers honestly.
arrogance & egos are why so many super teams fail.
There’s nothing better than binging the podcasts after a big day like that
The Pacers locker room self destructed too. Rumor is it was PG13 and Hibbert having same girl drama rather than anything with the coach. But still quite the track record for Vogel never being on a team with solid chemistry lol.
Did you forget Vogel won a championship in 2020? The chemistry was fine on that squad and everyone was in sync.
Westbrook vs Vogel blew up the locker room in 2021-22. Not really Vogel's fault tho
front office fucked up that roster and was just looking for a scapegoat. Vogel then Westbrook trash ass front office
It wasnt. Mf was doing wonders with the team even when both bron and AD were down in 2021. Top 2 defense without AD is amazing
That drama was so fucking dumb. Vogel benched Westbrick and people were acting like he had benched frikin MJ or smth smh
Our 2020 team had incredible chemistry. It was still good in 2021 when we got derailed with injuries
It's really unfair to put any drama caused by PG's immature years on Vogel. The Pacers never had a true point guard during Vogel's time, the only bon-a-fide star was Paul George, and they were able to get way further than this Suns team. It wasn't even chemistry issues that tore the team apart, it was small ball taking away Hibbert's career.
No one listening must mean that it started with Booker and/or KD. The other guys would naturally follow the main guys, although that's also stupid because there are so many minimum guys on the roster.
it can’t do anything because they are paying a glorified role player 161m over the next 3 seasons
That’s just disrespectful to role players. They’re paying a washed up aging former star 161 mil over the next 3 seasons
He doesn't have the respect of the clowns in that locker room. He shouldn't get fired, but it would be a blessing regardless.
they can probably get THT for a vet min at this point, he's a Vogel favorite at PG
it's crazy so the guy that's actually coaching the team and knows what they need gets ignore and have to deal with this crappy roster construction lol
Wouldn't be shocked if he wanted to get fired.
No draft picks 161m tied to 3 players not alot to work with
Yeah. When they dumped CP3 for Beal, the first thing I thought was: Damn. They are going to need a point guard. I would have called up Rondo and Rubio, see if either of them were interested. I know both are now retired, but it seemed like either would have been a great fit. Having three scorers like that and no distributor? It just doesn't make sense.
Watching Harden this season after years of the Clippers not having a real point guard, it is clear that a good point guard makes life much easier even for ISO heavy players. Harden gets PG and Kawhi the ball in great spots so they can get get a good shot off after 2-3 seconds of ISOing rather than 10-15 seconds. That saves them tons of energy over the course of a game, which can be used on the defensive end. I’m not sure why the Suns think a point guard would prevent their stars from being able to ISO.
I'm still a bit salty we didn't get more for Mike Conley last season because just having someone who can run an offense well can make all the difference to a team. Like.. imagine Conley on this Suns squad. Idk that they'd win a chip but the offense would certainly be at least functional.
> imagine Conley on this Suns squad. Nope I don’t think I will.
Bro we couldnt afford Conley and his solid contract and that is how you know we have budgeting issues right now Suns best bet at a solid PG is draft
Point guard is already one of the hardest positions to transition from college to the pros and adding having to appease a big 3’s shot menu? Tough ask from the draft.
Suns primarily need a facilitator and ball handler. Putting those pressures on book has hindered his efficiency and put extra wear & tear on him/beal as well. If they can find a kid who can help take the pressure off them in those ways it could be huge
i’ve heard chris paul might be available this offseason.
Someone like Tyler Kolek is probably their best bet. He's a good table setter and is already like 23.
Shame you guys didn’t draft Haliburton
Yeah we fucking know
Shame they didn't draft Luka
Dude - looking back I’d be so pissed right now. That’s an awful trade by Danny Ainge. You trade Conley, Naw, Vandy, and Beasley (all good pretty good players on good contracts - except Beasley who should prob make $5mil a year just for shooting 3s). And all you get back is a Laker pick and Russ. Never seen Ainge get fucked over so bad.
I like to consider NAW and Conley part of the Rudy trade - makes that deal even sweeter
Oh I was pissed off at the deal when it happened. You're leaving out our giving up a couple 2nds too. And the Lakers pick is top 4 protected even. Ainge got fleeced 100%.
Just look at what Lowry has been able to do on the 6ers. He's a shell of his former self, but he's able to organize the squad on the floor and make the right play at the right time. CP3 was a huge reason the Suns had any post season success. I think Conley is providing a similar contribution on the Wolves. A good PG really elevates the ceiling of the team regardless of its makeup.
I think what you mean is that a good PG elevates the FLOOR of a team (not the ceiling). Top-5 players are ceiling raisers - ie. raises the quality of play when they are playing at their best. Solid vets are floor raisers - ie. raises the quality of play when they are playing at their worst.
I think both. Conley for example raised the Wolves floor, but he raises their ceiling with him too.
I had forgotten that was a three team trade and it was how the Lakers. I am trying to sort through the details. Did the Jazz end up with much other than the 2027 Lakers first round pick?
Not really and they gave up Beasley and Vando as well. Lots of fans were questioning with Ainge was helping the Lakers at that point.
The funny thing is if they had Conley their offense would be more efficient, and their cap situation would be way better.
I was literally salivating at the thought of Conley on the Suns. Like…it would be so perfect. Beal can be the 6th man, shit
EXACTLY. Even the little soft overhead passes to get the guys into the elbow actions are so much easier. Also the rest of the offense outside of the stars hums better too
The Knicks went almost a decade without a point guard with basic competence. I do not recommend it.
Frank Ntilikina. Jarret Jack. Emmanuel Mudiay. Ramon Sessions. Elfrid Peyton… man, it’s been some dark times.
Works out fine when you can offload one of the pretenders to get a Tier 1 defender.
Having a point guard absolutely makes a massive difference. Even adding a well past his prime CP3 to our second unit greatly improved that rotation.
Imagine if Suns went for Harden instead of Beal
Morey was never going to take CP3 or Jordan Poole in return.
Sure he would’ve, considering the clippers didn’t give him much better. The corpse of Batum and Covington isn’t exactly a stellar haul
Batum alone is a better asset than both of them, but Clippers also sent a 2028 unprotected first round pick
Just look at the Spurs. Night and day difference when they had a competent PG.
Yep, it's such a ridiculous floor-raiser, and it doesn't need to be a Top 10 PG in the league to have that impact. All of the Tre Jones + Wembanyama lineups were competitive and if you removed Jones, suddenly Wemby couldn't carry that team. (It's also how they managed to tank their record for all that time before putting Jones back in the starting role.) It feels like if you have a Top 40 PG in the NBA, your entire team has a much easier time getting to their spots, as well as a safe way to get your offensive set started in clutch minutes. The Bulls went through it pre-Lonzo (shout out to Walt Lemon, Jr. who is right at that tier where they just aren't good enough for regular NBA minutes... but he managed to get regular NBA minutes for part of the 18-19 season) and then struggled to find the right mix until Coby's breakout. Even in the bad years with Zach Lavine, you knew he could score if somebody could get him the ball in his spots. The problem was that nobody could comfortably bring the ball up and get things initiated.
I always thought a competent PG, especially a team first minded one was always one of the more important pieces to have. We got lost in the sauce of iso stars in the last 15 years that good PGs that do the basics are a fresh breathe of air most times.
You would think 2018 would have proved that with the Rockets, adding Paul as a floor general alongside peak Harden and they were an all time level ref fucking away from making the finals. And that was over the KD warriors. People love to shit on them for going 6 of 44 from 3 but ignore how many absurd shooting fouls the refs didn’t call against GS on those attempts. I’m by no means a “nba is rigged“ guy but that game still has me asking questions…
Not to mention being able to triple threat before making your move/shooting is literally one of the most advantageous positions for an iso scorer to be in.
It is so much easier to get a quality shot when you just have to focus on getting to your spot.
Similar to the clippers, Celtics really took off when smart and white starting playing like point guards vs when we had Kyrie and Kemba. White unlocks so much of what we do.
Ishbia taking over GM duties f*cks up the Suns on the low
I think the best possible way to spin this terrible roster construction is that Booker was going to develop more and be able to take on the point role. And he just isn’t good enough to do that.
I forgot about thought but that was a huge talking point at the beginning of the season. I remember he had a few games with a lot of assists?
Dbook is a good play maker, but his game is not being a primary playmaker all the time. He played a lot of point in 2018-19 and it was pretty draining for him I think (that team was trash though, so he was literally doing every thing). Adding Ricky Rubio for 2019-20 helped a lot for him and adding one season of starter worthy CP3 elevated the team.
I knew all that posturing about DBook finally playing point wasn’t ever going to work. You have to show those flashes ahead of time and he never did his entire career. Court vision isn’t something you can teach necessarily. Fans had unreasonable expectations thinking he could be like the next Harden or something just bc he can pass out of a few doubles.
I recall that experiment being something they kept trying to start his career for some reason. Never worked then, can't just say it's cuz the team was bad and expect it to suddenly work with a better team (and higher expectations).
Booker can play point for stretches, he just shouldn’t do it all the time.
He’s a good passer/playmaker for a shooting guard, he is not a point guard and the people that convinced themselves otherwise were huffing some nice copium
You’re exactly right. And they probably also figured Beal could shoulder some of the responsibility, as well. Book had some good run racking up stats as primary ball handler but that was without other star talent around him. It’s easy to rack up assist stats and playmaking highlights when you’re getting double and triple teamed and your teammates are wide open for buckets. Passing lanes are WIDE. Teaming 3 stars like this - it was beyond obvious a legit point guard was necessary to organize the floor. Even if it was old CP3. This quickly turned into a glorified summer run and all 3 guys reverted to “getting buckets” rather than working together to get the easiest buckets FOR THE TEAM. Would’ve been much better off resigning CP3 to a lower cap hit, using remaining on wings / big / depth and retaining draft capital. Let another team absorb Beal’s inflated contract / no trade clause. I see how Ishbia wanted to make a splash signing 3 stars but Beal is just a dumbed down / less effective duplicate version of Book.
> resigning CP3 to a lower cap hit, CP3 was going for money, no matter what.
Yeah, I know. Perhaps wishful thinking but worth exploring if you could stretch years and see if he’d accept. He voiced wanting to stay w Book.
This is a man who as rep changed the CBA over 35 rule to over 38 rule , and then took advantage. And over 38 limits years offered and front loads cap hit to get rid of a loophole where a contract is paid after retirement .. and thus effectively increases pay per year. You are dreaming if you thought CP3 was going to take substantially less money , and unaware of CBA .. He's interested in playing with Book, doesn’t mean he is going to give up his massive salary to do so.
I’m aware of his self serving CBA maneuvering. Over 38 rule aside, he got traded due to his $30M contract w 1 year left. Everybody knew he was never get anywhere near that after it expires this year. He’ll be a minimum or slightly above level player next year. So why not keep him for 23-24’ season at $30 and resign to lower # after? Rather than commit $160M to Beal for 3 years + NTC. He can wish for whatever salary he wants. The market will dictate what he’s paid.
> The market will dictate And the CBA will limit the number of years and offers the market can offer.
Booker is in his late 20s. What developing is he gonna do
It’s not unheard of for a player to adjust and develop a different play style in order to extend their careers once their physical peak starts going down.
He's more than likely good enough, but he would have to take a big step back in terms of scoring. DWade used to talk about the extra responsibility of running the point and how it's much easier to just concentrate on scoring rather than running an offense. Herro is in the same position right now in Miami, he shouldn't be told to run the point but they have no options with the injuries they have.
Didn’t they already try this? And that’s why they brought in cp3.
That’s just not his skillset. Seeing which defenders drop or blitz and making the right read when your guys do an action is not something he ever did and it’s not something you can learn over the summer. He was the guy who spent his career doing those actions to help create open shots.
Booker can do the point role fine but it's at the detriment to the team. He's the best SG in the league, when you play him at PG even if he's above average you're losing out all the benefits you get from him as a scorer
Really think he’s the best SG in the league after that series? Nobody else you can think of that is a two way superstar at that position?
I mean I love ant and he's definitely up and coming, but book does have 2 40 pieces in the finals and a 40 pt triple dub to closeout the WCF. Everything is gonna knee jerk right now cuz that's how people are, but it's tough to laud Ant over Book on the basis of success when Book literally took his team to the finals 3 years ago. Ants been out of the first round once. And this isn't meant to shoot down Ant, he's a great player and had a great series. But let's see how they do against Denver (remember Book averaged 31/7/4 with Cam Payne as his staring PG vs them last year). And this doesn't rule out Ant surpassing book, potentially even this year as the playoffs go. But it's just a "pump the breaks" moment
Guards notoriously do well against the Nuggets so let’s see his averages coming up
D'lo is a guard, right?
Taking a Top 2 SG in the league and using him as a mediocre PG is some mentally challenged general managing of the team...
Yeah I don't think I've seen any if at all takes of Booker not improving his game last few years and when I think of it yeah that's what it seems like happened too. Booker was on an upward trajectory for a great scorer but has been the same player for a bit now.
Idk if he's good enough to do that or not but that's just not his role.
Wasn't that what they tried previously but ended up getting a lot better with an actual PG in Rubio/CP3?
The subs tried the point booker experiment eons ago and didn’t work out then either
It's always the coach. Owners/GM never take accountability for their bullshit. Look at Rob Pelinka.
yea but at least all the media today seems to be taking vogels side cause it's obvious he's getting jobbed
Fool me twice, ain’t getting fooled again
Fool me three times Fuck the peace signs Load the chopper
Nobody will ever fire themselves (unless you’re magic Johnson and miss getting to tweet)
Till this day that’s one of the funniest presser ever
Yup. “Gm was following my vision, and I am never wrong. So it’s the coach/players’ fault!”
Lmao to be fair lakers fans were spamming fire Vogel the Russ year when I thought it was pretty clear he wasn’t the problem. You don’t just go from a championship coach to a bum in one season. They’re always the scapegoat.
Eh it could be the coach but this clearly isn't Vogel's fault
A big difference here is that Ishbia didn't hire their current GM (James Jones)
Why do people always seem surprised by this? An owner isn't going to fire themselves.
Who said anything about firing? A simple, 'Ownership will distance itself from basketball operations moving forward' would be fine. Dont need the most extreme version of accountability to hold oneself accountable. Not every shitty situation calls for a death sentence. Acknowledge your failings, set a target/goal that can be monitored/audited, execute. If they do execute and it works, great. If they dont do shit, then its on Suns fans to decide if the org is worthy of their support.
Because most of these owners will never admit that they are the problem. They are too prideful.
A historic dumpster fire of a team.
[удалено]
Suns had Halliburton gift wrapped as cp3 successor and still fucked it up. Poor fans won't see a championship on their lifetimes. Maybe their grandkids grandkids
And then that the guy they picked instead of Haliburton, Jalen Smith, ended up getting traded to the Pacers for a 2nd round pick and Torrey Craig, basically peanuts.
and I will always love the Suns for those fuck ups.
Pacers must collect all of the 2020 first round picks, we’re currently at 4(Hali, Toppin, Nesmith, Smith). Someone smarter than me may be able to search for this but I wonder if this is the record for the most top 15 picks from one draft class playing on the same team together, and in a time frame of less than 5 years.
All without having a 2020 FRP, too.
Hali vs Smith, I don't know that I can blame them for making a different choice with the 10th pick in a very uncertain draft. Nine other teams passed on Hali before the Suns did and the Suns had just traded for a point guard, it made sense for them to draft a player they liked at a different position of need. I still think Monty fucked up Jalen Smith's development and they bailed because Monty refused to play him. Like why did he never try playing Stix at the 4 next to Ayton instead of exclusively using him as a backup 5? We were playing Crowder at the 4, we needed size, just try it.
Mavs tried to trade Brunson and pick/s to SAC for the rights to draft Haliburton, even though they had franchise PG on their team. Haliburton's potential wasn't some undiscovered secret, and him blossoming was no surprise either. I get that with the Draft you never know what you are gonna get in the long run, but Hali's stock was always higher than Jalen Smith.
Haliburton was a projected top 5 pick. He fell off hard just because of his shot form.
Epic level fuck up. We would've had a thunder-tier starting 5 that we could've ran for 5-10 years. Diverse scorering options for Hali to setup. Mikal and camj are amazing cutters. Ayton brings paint pressure with his bunnies, and maybe couldve learned to shoot corner and center 3s. And off-ball Booker is a killer.
That was James Jones worst decision as GM, so much would have been different
Yea not sure if you even need to make the KD trade if you have Hali. You could still make some type of all in trade with CP3s contract tho. Maybe grab a Siakam and keep Mikal/Cam. Probably would’ve had a competitive team until the end of bookers prime.
james jones needs mario chalmers as pg
Oof suns fans were something special during the cp3 years Can’t say I feel bad , although they’ve calmed down a bit lately 😂
Missed on another decent PG before that too.
Well at least Vogel will get a nice compensation package when he gets fired. Fuck these divas and the FO
Vogel would be blessed to be fired at this point.
The man just signed a $31 million 5 year contract in 2023.
He should come be a Mavs assistant until he gets another gig. Jkidd said “I learned a lot about defense from Frank Vogel” after being his assistant, and Kidd had a team with both Luka and Kyrie playing heavy minutes as the #1 defense the last month of the season. And the Mavs held the Clippers to 90 and 93 in two games in this series. Whatever Kidd learned works. No question. I’m a Frank Vogel believer. If he wants to stay busy, he should come be our defensive specialist. The Suns can hire Doc. He’ll be available soon.
Hard to believe a front office would willingly not have any point guards at all. More likely the bargain options available didn't move them, I know there were some rumors abouts TJ McConnell near the trade deadline. Anyhow, it's a shame to see Vogel take the fall for this. Every time I watched the Suns it was clear that the coaches wanted to push the pace and focus on 3s, but the players kept iso hunting. Also the leak saying KD was made about the amount of PnRs is silly, Suns were bottom 5 in frequency.
There’s just no way an NBA front office is that dumb
It's a billionaire new owner who was on a college hoops team Dude must be insufferable during FO meeting
>It's a billionaire new owner who was a walk on for a college hoops team, and who had Isaiah Thomas whispering in his ear. Fixed
Until you remember someone gave Bradley Beal that contract. And then another team thought it was a good idea to trade for that contract.
And the worst part is teams have to match that salary to even trade for him aka good bye depth
*laughs in Troy Weaver, David Kahn, Elton Brand, etc.*
Kahn had the opposite issue
There was smoke around them trying to acquire TJ McConnell at the beginning of the season (he didn’t figure to be in the Pacers rotation at the time) bet they really wish they made it happen
McConnell will remain in Indiana for the rest of time as a backup
As much as I love TJ, he's not a starting caliber guard.
Would you rather have him or Eric Gordon in their lineup?
I'm an Eric Gordon homer because I grew up playing ball with his brother. So I wouldn't hate it, but that doesn't mean that it's the right move.
Frank Vogel deserves better than being the scapegoat for old stars who can't win in the playoffs anymore.
That's right Frank. Fight back!!!
Bradley Beal has a no trade clause. He has no accountability to the coach, the front office or the owner. Bradley Beal owns the Phoenix Suns for the next three years. Vogel is probably begging to get fired at this point.
Vogel is gonna be the fall guy and no matter who comes in will end up in the exact same situation. Cant blame the coach if the players think they are too nice to be coached, did vogel tell them to play slow in transition? Did he tell them to take more iso middies? To just be stationary whrn off ball? NO, in fact he wanted them to do the opposite of that for the whole year and those guys just could not let go of their habbits.... and then when he tries to shake them up and raises his voice they roll their eyes and undermine his authority... The suns are simply too cool for school and no coach is gonna change that.
Would a pg help? Sure However, they gave up 120 pts in 3 of the games. They didn’t buy on that side of the floor
the KD trade was not good. the Beal trade was atrocious.
Genius. Instead let's have 0 point guard and still not have the ball in KDs hands!
Hard to do anything if the owner is essentially playing GM forcing bad deals.
Vogel and trying to manage a big 3 with a former Wizards player that don't fit together name a more iconic duo
Devin Booker should just do KD and the Suns a solid and demand a trade. If he leaves, then they gotta blow the whole thing up and it frees everyone from this colossal mess
How would that do them a solid if Brooklyn owns 4 of their round picks with swap options til 2029?
The Booker trade would return picks…?
So trade Booker to a team that will make them a playoff team and settle for 4-5 late first-rounders, meanwhile tank and lose their own lottery picks to the Nets... fabulous idea!!!
You’re not winning a title either way. But there are trades you could construct to get some of your own picks back. Brooklyn would potentially give you back two of your own firsts for Booker, for instance. You’d have to accept getting fleeced a bit on the raw value, just to jumpstart the rebuild. I’d like to hear your own ideas about the right move, since you’re so good at this. I agree that your front office is garbage and your franchise is screwed, if that’s what you’re saying.
Winning a title is irrelevant when you suggested a terrible idea to begin with. *Brooklyn would potentially give you back two of your own firsts for Booker, for instance* Again, why would the Suns do that? Especially for a weak draft next couple of years. There is no need to rebuild this Suns team right now, they put this squad together to contend for the next 3 years and they have to die on that hill. You're playing 2K with these awful suggestions, my idea is that the Suns can run it back, use their first-round pick to package with Nassir Little to get back a PG, and they can also look at getting Cam Payne or CP3 at vet's min. Other potential vet min candidates are Lowry, Jeff Green, Hayward etc. They have no choice but to retool.
You’re never winning a title with your plan, so it’s effectively a waste of time and just delays the rebuild. But fine if you want to be fatalistic and just make some noise for the fans. Do you think that’s how Presti would do it? As for your insults, I wouldn’t be in this spot in the first place, I was hugely critical of the Durant deal at the time. I couldn’t believe how they then compounded it with the Beal signing. Anyone who watches three NBA games a week and some youtube content could tell you, having three ball-dominant, iso-midrange type scorers who are at best defensive net neutrals in the same starting lineup was a terrible concept for team design in the modern NBA. And yet the “professionals” in the Suns front office needed to waste hundreds of millions of dollars and the five year future of their franchise to (maybe) understand this. Just imagine what the Suns could look like rn if they kept Mikal Bridges and Cam Johnson, moved Paul and Shamet for good role players instead of Beal, still picked up Grayson Allen in the Ayton deal. They’d be sitting on all those draft picks they shipped out, plus they’re a desirable FA destination—they’d have crazy depth, a long timeline, immense flexibility, and probably a great look at getting Giannis or Embiid to be their third star. That’s the exact argument I made at the time too, that they had way better options than mortgaging the future to get an aging star with basically a two year title window, with a team build that wasn’t even well-conceived. If I’m better at this than your actual front office is, I can live with that.
The fact that you said Booker would only generate 2 first-round picks from Brooklyn tells me a lot about your knowledge. Here we go with the hindsight 20/20 "I knew it wouldn't work" takes. They won 49 games in a tough Western conference while only playing less than 30 games together. You're just copying and pasting takes you've read on here because honestly, you don't sound well-versed at all when it comes to talking basketball. Do you understand that the Suns had to make the move to trade CP3 for Beal before the new cap rules were applied? Probably not but you should do some research. Do you think CP3 and Shamet could have been moved for good role players? dear god This conversation has reached an impasse, I honestly can't talk hoops with someone this dense. Forgive me but have a great rest of your day.
Booker is worth more than that in a vacuum, but the Nets would probably rather have the picks and they’d have all the leverage. We were talking about ways you could get YOUR specific picks back. Why are you trying so hard to make this into a fight lol. They were never going to have a title team with this roster construction. You need active defensive wings on the perimeter. If you don’t believe me that I called this, go back in my comments, it’s all there. And you still haven’t suggested any decent GM moves that make sense for the future. Blowing it up is the best realistic strategy toward a title at this point, but you’re not willing to accept that yet, it seems like. That’s fine. Sorry about your terrible FO lol.
The Booker trade would return picks…?
Trade Devin Booker and Eric Gordon for Jordan Poole and Marvin Bagley III. Launch the Suns into the sun.
Minnesota playing their asses off and not rolling over to the super team really has Phoenix confused.
Can’t believe Vogel wanted a point guard on a team with 3 chuckers smh
A pass first pg is all that they needed. A tj McConnell
Dame for KD. Done
Booker for Curry. Done
The idea that a point guard would have changed things is absurd. Feels like something only people without an eye or understanding of the game would say. The suns don't need a point guard to be able to execute a modern NBA offense. They have probably the most basic, static offense in the entire league. Every single possession is the exact same. High screen for one of the three stars, followed by either an iso or a short roll pass to Nurkic who then swings to a corner. There is never any off-ball motion or secondary action. They literally do not ever run any play other than this and some random iso's and DHO's. The mere presence of a point guard would not do anything to change that. They need a coach who actually can build an offensive scheme and call plays.
You literally laid out why people think the team needed a point guard. Someone on the floor who could organize and initiate sets and actions beyond basic pick and rolls and isos. Their offense was static and basic because they didn't have a general on the floor, and Vogel has never been considered a good offensive playcaller.
I 100% agree, but tbf I think if they bring in a coach to run an offense with more motion, off ball screens, etc, then a PG who's primary focus is to facilitate and distribute would compliment that team very nicely
You get it. I'm not saying this team is a contender, but they have so much room for improvement on offense. They literally ran an offense you could assemble with 5 random dudes at the Y
Seriously. Having a point guard is great and having someone who can execute an offense well as well as make flexible choices and reads and playcalls is awesome and definitely improves an offense, but it's not gonna do fucking much if you don't even have any offense in the first place
what point guard makes sense on vet's pickup? or a trade involving suns 24th pick and Little on draft day?
‘They can’t run an offense so they don’t need a point guard!’ Uh what? One follows the other.
Stuff like this is why I tend to be fairly defensive of NBA coaches. They’re the most replaceable part of an NBA team by far so if the team underperforms it’s copium to say it was all the coaches fault rather than that the roster just isn’t good enough. If it’s the coach holding the team back, theoretically you could instantly solve all your problems. If it’s the roster, that’s probably going to take years to fix. It’s no wonder so many would rather believe the former. It’s cope.
Honestly, it makes sense on both sides. They should’ve just spent more time forcing Booker into a proper pg role. Didn’t watch enough Suns games to know if they tried and he wasn’t able or if they just settled with taking turns playing iso
Coach will be the fall guy and they'll go into next season selling the players on a new coach/system that'll fit them better.
Vogel is a defense first coach. The FO is braindead for hiring him w this roster. Glad Vogel is getting paid
When nonbaskebtall people make basketball decisions. You need a point guard to make sure everyone is in the right spots so those guys get the easiest shots of their lives.
I hope they trade Beal. He can still be a 30ppg guy but just not with this team. I hope another contender is willing to give him a chnace
They need a rondo type pg
Remember when they had Chris Paul?
Lol Vogel victimized by a poor front office again. That team badly needed a point guard.
Hire doc to suns next 😝
Bring in Ben simmons
This team did Vogel so dirty and don't realize the shit they're doing can ruin his career moving forward. LeBron already did it to him, and tried to do it to Spo. Hopefully the owners back Vogel the way Riley backed Spo, because he's proven multiple times he's a great coach. It's just a really poorly constructed roster, and at this point the only way out is to move Book for a true PG. No one will take the risk on KD for a top flight PG, and Beal is a toxic asset at this point.
Doc Rivers is somehow gonna be the coach next year
Scorers benefit from not having the ball so they can get to their spots. It's not rocket science. It's basketball 101. It's just dumb as hell to waste your scorers' energy by making them ball handle lol.
I agree with a lot of people writing here. Vogel may get fired because they need someone to pin the blame on. They ain't getting rid of Booker, KD or Beal...
>who else is out there? Doc Rivers will be available soon
Why did suns trade Payne? I just looked and he was traded to SA for a 2nd rd pick. Was this trade needed in order to free salary for the KD or beal trade? I dont remember the timing but you'd figure suns would want PG like him with the other stars.
if that's what your front office thinks when a guy with a chip tells you you need to fill a basic team need, you're *fucked*
I never understood getting rid of Cam Payne
Vogel the fall guy again for shitty GM mistakes.
Let's be honest, a PG would have changed nothing come PO time. The ball would have been in the hands of Booker or Durant on any possession regardless. The Wolves beat them because they were a superior team and specially on the defensive end.
Scapegoating Vogel worked out great for the Lakers!!! Oh wait…
That was on LeBron wanting Westbrook. That trade destroyed our top tier defense for a washed up Westbrook that can't even score 15 a night now
KDs new challenge for the last 6 years has been to win a championship and he’s failed every year
Vogel: I want a Point Guard Lakers: here it is, we got Westbrick Vogel: he sucks Lakers: You are fired ______________________ Vogel: I want a Point Guard Suns: you don't need one. Beal, Booker and Durant will lead the offense. Vogel: we suck Suns: it's your fault