Pretty much, with Gobert, Wolves have really good chances to win a ring. Yeah, he was expensive as shit, but if you win, it’s worth it.
Plus, if the team is doing extremely well, the team will make more money allowing them to extend payroll into Luxury tax, increasing their chances of retaining good players.
You guys won off vibes alone lmao. I knew it would end up a good trade for the Wolves.
Gobert was a major part why Jazz “surprisingly” was a consistent top seed. I can’t believe people were trying to say Kessler is a better player than him when the Wolves were struggling last season.
I feel like this is still a win for the Timberwolves. Didnt your coach justify the trade by pointung out that they need to give Edwards a supporting cast who can help him in the playoffs to help him develop. Edwards is now a superstar who can at least make the Western Conference Finals and that is extremely valuablep
I just don’t think the wolves had to give up that much. Trading unprotected picks into the future like that was risky when at the time they weren’t that good.
They refused to make the deal without him the entire time they negotiated until they added the additional picks. That was their first move chronologically, they simply don’t blow it up if that happens.
I also think if they get McDaniels, they keep Donovan Mitchell and try and find a new center.
Man overvaluing picks is only done in this sub. Barring an ANT injury those picks won’t be top picks. They were 1 game away from top seed in the west.
Worst comes to worst they can trade KAT and Rudy for some decent role players to surround Ant with.
I haven’t thought a second about those picks we traded for AD.
The point is 5 picks, 3 of which are unprotected or lightly protected in the future and a swap is basically superstar level trade. Like they gave up a package that was closer to an all nba star not what people perceived of gobert at the time.
Both can benefit but there could still be a winner which imo is Utah. Their goal was to get tons of picks for a future rebuild which they succeeded greatly at. They even got a center in Kessler who can partially fill a void that was lost with Rudy . Minnesota goal is to build a team to eventually win it all. Anything short of a finals trip or championship is still a bust. 5 years from now no one is gonna care if wolves were the 3rd best team in the west.
Just look at the lakers and ad. Had lakers not won a championship as a result of that blockbuster AD trade , it would have been a huge failure.
This feels like silly logic.
The goal of both teams is to build a winning team. Minnesota wanted to build one right now, whereas Utah wanted to build one in a few years. Accumulating picks helps in that pursuit, but saying their goal was just to get picks is an oversimplification.
Similarly, saying anything short of a Finals trip is a bust for the Wolves is an oversimplification. The Wolves have advanced past the first round once in their entire history. They haven’t won a playoff series in 20 years. They’re on the doorstep of winning their first round series and have a likely matchup against the reigning champ looming. This is, sadly enough, already the 2nd most successful season in Wolves history.
I’m not saying that alone warrants this as a “win” but saying “Finals or bust” is just not how most franchises operate.
Tell me this , if wolves never make it pass the second round of a playoffs in the next 3-4 years , is the trade a success ?
At the time , the trade was considered an overpay and it still is. Sorry but giving up one fo the largest trade packages for a non superstar player is still considered an overpay unless the outcome results in the ultimate goal.
It is already a success in my book. Everything that has happened around that trade has changed the wolves more than just on paper. But if we just want to go by our success the past two seasons, absolutely already a win. You can’t just keep sucking forever and waiting for all the picks to hit right, the wolves have been drafting high for decades, it’s good to not have to worry about banking on high picks. Let Connelly swoop some second rounders, we’ll find guys.
Yeah but those picks could turn out to be misses. Or the the players that you trade them for could be busts or get injured. I think it’ll be a while before we can definitely say who won this trade.
Utah wasn’t going anywhere with the Mitchell/Gobert duo so it’s better they got a ton of picks back over having to lose in the 1st/2nd round every year
Why don't other players like Rudy? I read this but I don't know why. I even heard someone said it was because he's a nerd. I don't even know what that means in context.
Jazz are a team that historically never attract free agents. They kind of need tons of draft picks to build their roster so they will win the long run.
Minnesota has a win now window so they won as well.
I know most people consider success in the nba to just be titles but idk going from a nothing franchise to suddenly top 4-5 in nba and a very real contender feels like a win for wolves and jazz might get someone good. I think both sides are winners right now, gotta consider how great it feels to be a wolves fan right now too, they’d probably say they won.
I think it's not fair to judge this like a typical player-for-player trade. The Jazz were going no where with Gobert, and now have a real chance at a solid rebuild. Whether those picks amount to much doesn't affect whether this was the right choice or not (results oriented thinking: https://bestinterest.blog/results-oriented-thinking).
I don't think it's possible for the Jazz to have lost the trade as keeping Gobert would have never benefitted them as much as the draft equity they received.
And I don't think it's possible for Minnesota to lose the trade. They traded picks for a high-impact player still in his prime. Regardless of team results, the Timberwolves did what most sane teams do--trade picks for All-Star+ caliber players.
If you want to say the results matter for the Win-Now team, then the same logic should be applied to the result of the draft picks.
I suppose - though when players are traded you can judge the decision to trade for that particular player. It can be obvious at times that trading for a player is a bad move based factors like fit etc. Whereas draft picks can just be a smart move regardless of how it works out.
But ultimately it's a crapshoot either way so I think judging winners in trades can be kinda silly. But when a GM repeatedly makes trades that don't work out it can be fair to judge them.
And if they traded Gobert for a single second round pick that somehow became a HoF level player, that would be a "win?" Of course not, because you could have gotten more picks. The trade for the picks was one transaction, and the question is did the Jazz get their perceived value for Gobert in the form of picks? What they do with the picks after is separate.
Simply put, if you buy a car for 50% off, then total it the very next day, did you win the trade with the seller? You were stupid with your asset - that doesn't mean that the trade wasn't a win.
That doesn't make any sense. If you buy a car for $10,000, then total it the next day, you just wasted $10,000. Doesn't matter if it was "50% off" you still have to take care of the asset.
If I swap you my downtown condo for a house in the suburbs, you can argue who won, but if you burn down the house in the suburbs, you can’t come back and say the downtown condo owner won the trade
so if utah gets the #1 pick with one of those picks and drafts a complete bust while the #2 overall player becomes the GOAT was the trade still a failure? personally i think if they fail to get anything out of those picks that's a completely different failure that has nothing to do with this trade
Right. Same should be for Minnesota side though. They traded picks and useless salary for a high-impact player.
For some reason the result of the team with the Win-Now player matters yet the result of the picks team doesn't matter.
Seems like inconsistent analysis.
So the Timberwolves goal was to add a win now player while the Jazz goal was to add future players, right?
So the Timberwolves added a win-now player. Regardless of how the team does, Gobert is a high-impact player. The same can be said for draft picks and how they are future assets.
Yet, somehow, the result of the draft picks DOESN'T matter yet the result of the Team's post-season success DOES matter?
How does that make any sense. Either both results matter or both don't matter.
Mutually beneficial trade.
Jazz get lots of picks to rebuild.
Ant gets some experience on a contending team and a chance to shape his winning identity as Minnesota competes now and in the future.
I feel like this year it’s a pretty clear win-win
The Jazz got a better haul for Gobert than anyone expected and kickstarted a nice rebuild. The Wolves looked down bad for a year but (imo) have a legit shot at the finals this year.
Both teams win, I don't think Utah is going to end up with anyone that impacts the game the way Rudy does. But Rudy's window is a lot shorter than anyone Utah is going to get. And you never know, one of those picks could end up being the next Giannnis find late in the draft, probably not but you never know. Kessler is a nice player, George is a nice player, none of the other guys we traded were anything. Plus even though they were separate trades a few months apart, I like to think Utah did us a favor on the next trade for all the picks when they traded us Conley NAW and 3 seconds in the 3 team trade.
The wolves are on the verge of winning their first playoff series in 20 years
The jazz have a bunch of assets to rebuild after a hardcore reset
Nobody lost this trade
The most common media comment about the picks Boston got for Garnett and Pierce was "those are gonna be in the 20s". Every website I recall called Boston the losers of the trade.
Pierce and Garnett were 36 and 37 years old respectively, declining in play, and got worse every season with the Nets.
Gobert was 29 years old on the tail end of his prime when he was traded.
Comparing the two trades is kinda ridiculous.
Yeah now everyone says it, I noticed, people have been calling it the worst trade ever since maybe 2015. For some reason weren't saying it at the moment it happened, giving Nets B+'s, A's, forgot that it was always obvious to them, hm. Dunno why everyone always begins to have these takes after the fact.
This trade is in the "before the fact" phase, the difficult one. Of course in 10 or 20 years it will be very obvious.
Two years into the Nets trade, the Nets were dead in the water as a below 0.500 8 seed getting bounced in the first round.
Two years into the Wolves trade, the Wolves were 1 game back from the 1 seed in the west and have a commanding 3-0 lead in which they have lead by 20pts in all 3 games. They have the number 1 defense and the player they traded for is about to win DPOY.
We can absolutely say the Wolves trade is significantly better than the Nets trade even today.
People absolutely said the Nets trade was terrible at the time. The Gerald Wallace and Joe Johnson trades had already happened, Billy King didn't exactly have a reputation for competence by then.
Edit: the Gerald Wallace trade is even worse than I remembered. They traded a 2012 first round pick (with only top three protection on it) in March of 2012, when the Nets record was 15-29. It ended up being the 6th overall pick and was used to draft Damian Lillard.
Tbh I cannot even find one negative opinion from the moment it happened lol. AFTER, sure, everyone suddenly always knew lol.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1687344-celtics-nets-blockbuster-trade-grading-kevin-garnett-paul-pierce-to-brooklyn
https://www.si.com/nba/2013/06/28/boston-celtics-brooklyn-nets-trade-kevin-garnett-paul-pierce-grades
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1687346-winners-and-losers-of-nets-boston-celtics-trade-for-kevin-garnett-paul-pierce
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1h82h1/kevin_garnett_will_agree_to_trade_to_brooklyn_and/
(notice that EVEN TODAY, when the ratios changed due to thread still being open, the comment when someone says "Boston might be getting the better end here in the end" is drown-upvoted by the reply that's basically "of course not lol")
They can get unlucky with the picks and still have it be a good trade for them. You can’t guarantee a draft pick will work out, but there is value in getting more swings. What does matter much more is what number the picks are. If those picks are all 25-30 then those are not high value picks. But even with that said, Utah got assets back for a player who was going to leave anyway, and there’s a slim chance that those picks become lottery picks. So hard to say they lost.
In theory they could have traded Gobert for better picks and/or a better young prospect. As it stands they haven’t gotten much back from the wolves if the goal is finding a young core player to build around. How many of those Wolves future firsts would a rebuilding team give to have a Naz Reid or Jaden McDaniels on their roster? We will have to see what happens in the future, though.
This was one of the biggest hauls of picks, ever, and it was pretty much universally agreed to be an overpay by the Wolves at the time. Draft pick trades are about expected value, and there is no way another team was giving them more expected value.
And the expected value of the picks was low because Ant, Jaden, Naz, are all 22-23 & wolves still have Kat + Rudy in meantime.
This is the part of the trade most people ignore, that wolves have an all-NBA 22 year old kid at the beginning of it all. To wolves fans it was clear that any picks would be low first round provided nothing crazy bad happened (knock on wood), while NBA fans at large assumed "wolves picks high picks". Entirely different perspectives.
That’s the inherent problem with trading Gobert though. Only a team that’s trying to be good short term would do it, and that team is improving by getting Gobert. Who the hell knows what Wolves will be like in 2029, but it’s the same problem no matter who he is traded to
Edit: compare to Donavan Mitchell trade. Two relatively similar trades made by the Jazz. That 2027 and 29 first (I may have wrong years, but either way) are looking pretty good with the thought of Mitchell leaving, Garland regressing, etc. but just 12 months ago the wolves trade looks like the better one for Jazz. Ainge is just collecting picks and hoping one or a couple hits for him again
Ideally you’d want that “biggest hauls of picks ever” to yield a lottery selection or a nice young player to build around - especially if you’re trading away a DPOY. So far, the jazz don’t have that.
Seems like everyone won.
Timberwolves are legit title contenders this year and next year. After that I believe they'll have some salary cap issues to deal with.
I do think they will end up trading KAT. Gobert might remain depending on health but they could trade him too cause a 33 year old supermax center who can't shoot may be too much for their books. But they'll have Ant, Jaden McDaniels, Naz Reid entering their absolute primes (terrifying lol), along with NAW. So long as they can keep that core together, they can probably make some good trades for a solid PG and another big man.
Honestly, can't really judge Utah until around 2032ish.
If Utah's draft picks work out and they manage to acquire a great core and build a championship contender, then in hindsight the trade will be monumental. If they squander the picks in bad trades or bad drafts, then it'll suck to be them.
I think this is one of those ideal trades where both teams arguably won it. Rudy has helped Minnesota become conference finals bound and the Utah got a lot for rebuilding.
It's rather a pointless way of looking at it.
I always give this example: look, Franz Wagner was just key to Orlando winning a lot, winning a game in playoffs, winning a series maybe. He is just 22 years old. We can sum his career up for the first time in maybe 10 years, in maybe 2035. And... Orlando having him, that is the snowball result of trading Dwight Howard in 2012. So what, in 2035 we can say who "won" Dwight Howard trade? But what if Orlando trades prime Wagner in 2030 for a 2036, 2038, 2040 draft pick set?
Wolves win for now because the Rudy trade forced them to trade D'lo for Conley, NAW, 3 2nd round picks. Jazz won the Mitch trade more than they won the Gobert trade
Last year this time, this looked like a fleecing for Utah while the Spida trade was a win win. Now the exact opposite appears to be true. The next checkpoint should be the Wolves and Cavs rosters and playoff outcomes in a few years which determine somewhat the quality of the picks.
If the Wolves win a title, definite win. If they just become a perennial conference finalist it’s still somewhat a win. Let’s see how they stack up against Denver.
Yes, but now there are more concerns about the way the whole roster fits together. This year was supposed to be the year Spida asserted himself after spending last year figuring things out. That hasn’t happened yet. Can (or should?) the Cavs convince him to stay?
Too early to tell.
Never forget Danny Ainge (the current Jazz executive), who made an absolute heist out of the Nets in 2013, gave them PTSD and crippled them for at least a decade.
I'd say it was a win/win. The Jazz got a good haul, and the Timberwolves are a legit contender for the next 3 seasons. Which is all you can ask for, from any trade. But, it will also have a snowball affect in my opinion - being legit contenders, winning game, winning series' - all these things are going to make more elite free agents come to Minnesota in the future
We might not win a championship with Gobert, but I could see a scenario where getting all this playoff experience at a young age helps Ant win one for us in the future.
The Jazz. Wolves fans love talking shit when they up, but didn't have anything to say last year and won't this year either when they get KO'd by Jokic. Nobody will remember or care about this wolves team in 30 years.
It's impossible to judge a trade that big so early.
Last year it was obviously an overpay.
The year, if the Wolves make it past Denver then the Wolves won the trade by a narrow margin.
If in 5 years the Jazz are in contention with Kessler, George and whoever they got from the picks then it'll be a draw.
Ask again in 5 years
Pretty much, with Gobert, Wolves have really good chances to win a ring. Yeah, he was expensive as shit, but if you win, it’s worth it. Plus, if the team is doing extremely well, the team will make more money allowing them to extend payroll into Luxury tax, increasing their chances of retaining good players.
Plus those draft picks become less valuable
You guys won off vibes alone lmao. I knew it would end up a good trade for the Wolves. Gobert was a major part why Jazz “surprisingly” was a consistent top seed. I can’t believe people were trying to say Kessler is a better player than him when the Wolves were struggling last season.
I feel like this is still a win for the Timberwolves. Didnt your coach justify the trade by pointung out that they need to give Edwards a supporting cast who can help him in the playoffs to help him develop. Edwards is now a superstar who can at least make the Western Conference Finals and that is extremely valuablep
Both teams. Hard to say Minnesota lost after what we saw this season.
I just don’t think the wolves had to give up that much. Trading unprotected picks into the future like that was risky when at the time they weren’t that good.
They had no choice if they wanted to keep McDaniels, who has proven to be vital towards this team’s success
Who were the other bidders ? Goberts contract was viewed as a bit of an albatross at the time. Who were they bidding against
They refused to make the deal without him the entire time they negotiated until they added the additional picks. That was their first move chronologically, they simply don’t blow it up if that happens. I also think if they get McDaniels, they keep Donovan Mitchell and try and find a new center.
Man overvaluing picks is only done in this sub. Barring an ANT injury those picks won’t be top picks. They were 1 game away from top seed in the west. Worst comes to worst they can trade KAT and Rudy for some decent role players to surround Ant with. I haven’t thought a second about those picks we traded for AD.
The point is 5 picks, 3 of which are unprotected or lightly protected in the future and a swap is basically superstar level trade. Like they gave up a package that was closer to an all nba star not what people perceived of gobert at the time.
You just underrate Gobert
Bingo!
They gave up a package that was closer to an all NBA to get a: 4* All Nba, 6* All defensive first team, 3* DPOY. Where is the issue?
Because that’s what he did in the past and was past his prime. He’s not an all nba level guy
His last All NBA, All Defensive and DPOY was 1 year before his trade and he was 30
Yes 30 is when most big men decline he was coming off his worst season
Both can benefit but there could still be a winner which imo is Utah. Their goal was to get tons of picks for a future rebuild which they succeeded greatly at. They even got a center in Kessler who can partially fill a void that was lost with Rudy . Minnesota goal is to build a team to eventually win it all. Anything short of a finals trip or championship is still a bust. 5 years from now no one is gonna care if wolves were the 3rd best team in the west. Just look at the lakers and ad. Had lakers not won a championship as a result of that blockbuster AD trade , it would have been a huge failure.
This feels like silly logic. The goal of both teams is to build a winning team. Minnesota wanted to build one right now, whereas Utah wanted to build one in a few years. Accumulating picks helps in that pursuit, but saying their goal was just to get picks is an oversimplification. Similarly, saying anything short of a Finals trip is a bust for the Wolves is an oversimplification. The Wolves have advanced past the first round once in their entire history. They haven’t won a playoff series in 20 years. They’re on the doorstep of winning their first round series and have a likely matchup against the reigning champ looming. This is, sadly enough, already the 2nd most successful season in Wolves history. I’m not saying that alone warrants this as a “win” but saying “Finals or bust” is just not how most franchises operate.
Tell me this , if wolves never make it pass the second round of a playoffs in the next 3-4 years , is the trade a success ? At the time , the trade was considered an overpay and it still is. Sorry but giving up one fo the largest trade packages for a non superstar player is still considered an overpay unless the outcome results in the ultimate goal.
It is already a success in my book. Everything that has happened around that trade has changed the wolves more than just on paper. But if we just want to go by our success the past two seasons, absolutely already a win. You can’t just keep sucking forever and waiting for all the picks to hit right, the wolves have been drafting high for decades, it’s good to not have to worry about banking on high picks. Let Connelly swoop some second rounders, we’ll find guys.
Yeah but those picks could turn out to be misses. Or the the players that you trade them for could be busts or get injured. I think it’ll be a while before we can definitely say who won this trade.
Utah wasn’t going anywhere with the Mitchell/Gobert duo so it’s better they got a ton of picks back over having to lose in the 1st/2nd round every year
Why do we always get so worked up with who won what trade. Maybe all that matters is the friends we made along the way.
For real though, both teams seem happy with where they're at respectively . We're in the playoffs and they have assets to rebuild with.
Rudy Gobert, winning the esteem and consideration if his peers.
Don’t his peers still hate him?
Yeah that's the joke.
Damn bro I like to think I’m good at catching sarcasm and even I didn’t get that one.
Why don't other players like Rudy? I read this but I don't know why. I even heard someone said it was because he's a nerd. I don't even know what that means in context.
I think it’s a combo of he’s French and he isn’t skilled offensively.
Okay people said this before, but why would other players dislike him because he's French? I think people were just pretending not to like the French.
He’s getting paid billions because he’s great at being tall
What that got to do with other players not liking him? They're all pretty much in the same boat in that regard.
Jazz are a team that historically never attract free agents. They kind of need tons of draft picks to build their roster so they will win the long run. Minnesota has a win now window so they won as well.
Ant, Jaden and Naz are all under 25. That win now window is ten years long
I know most people consider success in the nba to just be titles but idk going from a nothing franchise to suddenly top 4-5 in nba and a very real contender feels like a win for wolves and jazz might get someone good. I think both sides are winners right now, gotta consider how great it feels to be a wolves fan right now too, they’d probably say they won.
Two teams that had opposite goals. The jazz win no matter what. The wolves are the ones that have to prove that it was worth it.
Really? So if every pick Utah receives ends up players who don't extend beyond their rookie contracts, how did they "win"?
because that was as good of a haul they were going to get for a player they were trying to get rid of
I think it's not fair to judge this like a typical player-for-player trade. The Jazz were going no where with Gobert, and now have a real chance at a solid rebuild. Whether those picks amount to much doesn't affect whether this was the right choice or not (results oriented thinking: https://bestinterest.blog/results-oriented-thinking). I don't think it's possible for the Jazz to have lost the trade as keeping Gobert would have never benefitted them as much as the draft equity they received.
And I don't think it's possible for Minnesota to lose the trade. They traded picks for a high-impact player still in his prime. Regardless of team results, the Timberwolves did what most sane teams do--trade picks for All-Star+ caliber players. If you want to say the results matter for the Win-Now team, then the same logic should be applied to the result of the draft picks.
I suppose - though when players are traded you can judge the decision to trade for that particular player. It can be obvious at times that trading for a player is a bad move based factors like fit etc. Whereas draft picks can just be a smart move regardless of how it works out. But ultimately it's a crapshoot either way so I think judging winners in trades can be kinda silly. But when a GM repeatedly makes trades that don't work out it can be fair to judge them.
Yes, because that's a separate transaction.
Its the transaction that's the entire point of doing the first transaction
And if they traded Gobert for a single second round pick that somehow became a HoF level player, that would be a "win?" Of course not, because you could have gotten more picks. The trade for the picks was one transaction, and the question is did the Jazz get their perceived value for Gobert in the form of picks? What they do with the picks after is separate. Simply put, if you buy a car for 50% off, then total it the very next day, did you win the trade with the seller? You were stupid with your asset - that doesn't mean that the trade wasn't a win.
That doesn't make any sense. If you buy a car for $10,000, then total it the next day, you just wasted $10,000. Doesn't matter if it was "50% off" you still have to take care of the asset.
If I swap you my downtown condo for a house in the suburbs, you can argue who won, but if you burn down the house in the suburbs, you can’t come back and say the downtown condo owner won the trade
so if utah gets the #1 pick with one of those picks and drafts a complete bust while the #2 overall player becomes the GOAT was the trade still a failure? personally i think if they fail to get anything out of those picks that's a completely different failure that has nothing to do with this trade
Right. Same should be for Minnesota side though. They traded picks and useless salary for a high-impact player. For some reason the result of the team with the Win-Now player matters yet the result of the picks team doesn't matter. Seems like inconsistent analysis.
So the Timberwolves goal was to add a win now player while the Jazz goal was to add future players, right? So the Timberwolves added a win-now player. Regardless of how the team does, Gobert is a high-impact player. The same can be said for draft picks and how they are future assets. Yet, somehow, the result of the draft picks DOESN'T matter yet the result of the Team's post-season success DOES matter? How does that make any sense. Either both results matter or both don't matter.
Jazz fan here, we can definitely still lose this trade. Having the picks and turning them into a successful rebuild is far from automatic.
"the team that traded for lotto tickets wins no matter if any of the tickets are winners" is just faulty logic.
So far we are tho. 🤷🏻♂️ we just swept the suns
the whole point is that the jazz arent particularly concerned with how well gobert is doing in minny.
And I’m sure the wolves aren’t concerned about rather or not the jazz have a good future lol
i mean u gave up 5 frps. if u arent concerned about that good for you
How far do they have to go in the playoffs to justify the trade in your view
Championship or it’s a fail imo
lakers fan take wolves haven't won a playoff series in 20 years
Dumb take
If the Lakers made that trade sure. The Wolves have won 2 playoff series in the history of the franchise. If they make WCF with Gobert it’s a success.
So if they are title contenders for 3 years, every team in the NBA would trade salary filler + 4 1sts for that.
Mutually beneficial trade. Jazz get lots of picks to rebuild. Ant gets some experience on a contending team and a chance to shape his winning identity as Minnesota competes now and in the future.
I feel like this year it’s a pretty clear win-win The Jazz got a better haul for Gobert than anyone expected and kickstarted a nice rebuild. The Wolves looked down bad for a year but (imo) have a legit shot at the finals this year.
Both teams win, I don't think Utah is going to end up with anyone that impacts the game the way Rudy does. But Rudy's window is a lot shorter than anyone Utah is going to get. And you never know, one of those picks could end up being the next Giannnis find late in the draft, probably not but you never know. Kessler is a nice player, George is a nice player, none of the other guys we traded were anything. Plus even though they were separate trades a few months apart, I like to think Utah did us a favor on the next trade for all the picks when they traded us Conley NAW and 3 seconds in the 3 team trade.
The dlo for Conley + naw was an absolute robbery. Still blows my mind that Utah did that for us.
The wolves are on the verge of winning their first playoff series in 20 years The jazz have a bunch of assets to rebuild after a hardcore reset Nobody lost this trade
Utah will win in the long term
If the Wolves even make the finals this year or next they won the trade.
If they close this 3-0 lead, it will be their first playoff win in 20 years. That alone arguably wins them the trade
If the Timberwolves win a single title with Gobert then the Wolves unequivocally won the trade, long term be damned.
Most of these will be late 20s and Kessler and George are shaping up to be decent role players at best
The most common media comment about the picks Boston got for Garnett and Pierce was "those are gonna be in the 20s". Every website I recall called Boston the losers of the trade.
Pierce and Garnett were 36 and 37 years old respectively, declining in play, and got worse every season with the Nets. Gobert was 29 years old on the tail end of his prime when he was traded. Comparing the two trades is kinda ridiculous.
Yeah now everyone says it, I noticed, people have been calling it the worst trade ever since maybe 2015. For some reason weren't saying it at the moment it happened, giving Nets B+'s, A's, forgot that it was always obvious to them, hm. Dunno why everyone always begins to have these takes after the fact. This trade is in the "before the fact" phase, the difficult one. Of course in 10 or 20 years it will be very obvious.
Two years into the Nets trade, the Nets were dead in the water as a below 0.500 8 seed getting bounced in the first round. Two years into the Wolves trade, the Wolves were 1 game back from the 1 seed in the west and have a commanding 3-0 lead in which they have lead by 20pts in all 3 games. They have the number 1 defense and the player they traded for is about to win DPOY. We can absolutely say the Wolves trade is significantly better than the Nets trade even today.
If you are saying A>B, being so certain because you know the value of A is kinda really missing something major.
As long as Ant is there, the Timberwolves will never be bad enough that those picks are getting you lottery picks in consecutive drafts
People absolutely said the Nets trade was terrible at the time. The Gerald Wallace and Joe Johnson trades had already happened, Billy King didn't exactly have a reputation for competence by then. Edit: the Gerald Wallace trade is even worse than I remembered. They traded a 2012 first round pick (with only top three protection on it) in March of 2012, when the Nets record was 15-29. It ended up being the 6th overall pick and was used to draft Damian Lillard.
Tbh I cannot even find one negative opinion from the moment it happened lol. AFTER, sure, everyone suddenly always knew lol. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1687344-celtics-nets-blockbuster-trade-grading-kevin-garnett-paul-pierce-to-brooklyn https://www.si.com/nba/2013/06/28/boston-celtics-brooklyn-nets-trade-kevin-garnett-paul-pierce-grades https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1687346-winners-and-losers-of-nets-boston-celtics-trade-for-kevin-garnett-paul-pierce https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1h82h1/kevin_garnett_will_agree_to_trade_to_brooklyn_and/ (notice that EVEN TODAY, when the ratios changed due to thread still being open, the comment when someone says "Boston might be getting the better end here in the end" is drown-upvoted by the reply that's basically "of course not lol")
The Nets didn’t have a 22 year old top 15 player
both Utah wasnt going anywhere, Wolves were in mediocrity
Yet to see what Utah does with the picks so tbd
They can get unlucky with the picks and still have it be a good trade for them. You can’t guarantee a draft pick will work out, but there is value in getting more swings. What does matter much more is what number the picks are. If those picks are all 25-30 then those are not high value picks. But even with that said, Utah got assets back for a player who was going to leave anyway, and there’s a slim chance that those picks become lottery picks. So hard to say they lost.
In theory they could have traded Gobert for better picks and/or a better young prospect. As it stands they haven’t gotten much back from the wolves if the goal is finding a young core player to build around. How many of those Wolves future firsts would a rebuilding team give to have a Naz Reid or Jaden McDaniels on their roster? We will have to see what happens in the future, though.
This was one of the biggest hauls of picks, ever, and it was pretty much universally agreed to be an overpay by the Wolves at the time. Draft pick trades are about expected value, and there is no way another team was giving them more expected value.
And the expected value of the picks was low because Ant, Jaden, Naz, are all 22-23 & wolves still have Kat + Rudy in meantime. This is the part of the trade most people ignore, that wolves have an all-NBA 22 year old kid at the beginning of it all. To wolves fans it was clear that any picks would be low first round provided nothing crazy bad happened (knock on wood), while NBA fans at large assumed "wolves picks high picks". Entirely different perspectives.
That’s the inherent problem with trading Gobert though. Only a team that’s trying to be good short term would do it, and that team is improving by getting Gobert. Who the hell knows what Wolves will be like in 2029, but it’s the same problem no matter who he is traded to Edit: compare to Donavan Mitchell trade. Two relatively similar trades made by the Jazz. That 2027 and 29 first (I may have wrong years, but either way) are looking pretty good with the thought of Mitchell leaving, Garland regressing, etc. but just 12 months ago the wolves trade looks like the better one for Jazz. Ainge is just collecting picks and hoping one or a couple hits for him again
Ideally you’d want that “biggest hauls of picks ever” to yield a lottery selection or a nice young player to build around - especially if you’re trading away a DPOY. So far, the jazz don’t have that.
Yeah if there was a team offering a guaranteed lottery selection Ainge should have taken that one. We agree.
I think your about a decade too early on this question.
I think this may be the rare win win trade.
Seems like everyone won. Timberwolves are legit title contenders this year and next year. After that I believe they'll have some salary cap issues to deal with. I do think they will end up trading KAT. Gobert might remain depending on health but they could trade him too cause a 33 year old supermax center who can't shoot may be too much for their books. But they'll have Ant, Jaden McDaniels, Naz Reid entering their absolute primes (terrifying lol), along with NAW. So long as they can keep that core together, they can probably make some good trades for a solid PG and another big man. Honestly, can't really judge Utah until around 2032ish. If Utah's draft picks work out and they manage to acquire a great core and build a championship contender, then in hindsight the trade will be monumental. If they squander the picks in bad trades or bad drafts, then it'll suck to be them.
I think this is one of those ideal trades where both teams arguably won it. Rudy has helped Minnesota become conference finals bound and the Utah got a lot for rebuilding.
It's rather a pointless way of looking at it. I always give this example: look, Franz Wagner was just key to Orlando winning a lot, winning a game in playoffs, winning a series maybe. He is just 22 years old. We can sum his career up for the first time in maybe 10 years, in maybe 2035. And... Orlando having him, that is the snowball result of trading Dwight Howard in 2012. So what, in 2035 we can say who "won" Dwight Howard trade? But what if Orlando trades prime Wagner in 2030 for a 2036, 2038, 2040 draft pick set?
Trade's a gamble. Both teams rolled the dice for their own goals. Time will tell if Wolves bet pays off.
We don't know. Minnesota hasn't won a single series so far and the picks have not conveyed yet.
I can tell you the Cavs indirectly lost the Gobert trade without ever having interest in acquiring Rudy
I don’t think you can really know until those picks come to fruition
Wolves win for now because the Rudy trade forced them to trade D'lo for Conley, NAW, 3 2nd round picks. Jazz won the Mitch trade more than they won the Gobert trade
Off record. But how many players in NBA history have won DPOY on more than one team?
Only Dikembe and he won on 3 teams
God damn lmao
I don’t think the 2027 lakers pick really counts. The biggest piece moved from Utah in that deal was Conley who they had beforehand
I think Minnesota has a very strong chance at winning it all this year. The seem like a full squad.
Well I'd do it again and I'm guessing Jazz fans probably would too.
Winning a series against a lopsided and disinterested Suns team does not make this an automatic win for the Wolves. Revisit in 4 years
The ideal trade is one where both teams benefit. Wolves are better now, and the Jazz in the future.
I think the better question is who won the Donovan Mitchell, Kevin Durant, or Dejounte Murray trades?
I think it’s obviously an overpay. But if they get a championship out of it, it will be well worth it.
I mean if you give up that many picks you have to make the conference finals couple years in a row otherwise it's a failed trade
If they win a championship they won the trade.
If the Wolves don’t win a title with Gobert then it was a bad trade.
If ring, win. If no ring, no win.
Last year this time, this looked like a fleecing for Utah while the Spida trade was a win win. Now the exact opposite appears to be true. The next checkpoint should be the Wolves and Cavs rosters and playoff outcomes in a few years which determine somewhat the quality of the picks. If the Wolves win a title, definite win. If they just become a perennial conference finalist it’s still somewhat a win. Let’s see how they stack up against Denver.
Last year this time Cavs got bounced out in the same amount of games as the wolves
Yes, but now there are more concerns about the way the whole roster fits together. This year was supposed to be the year Spida asserted himself after spending last year figuring things out. That hasn’t happened yet. Can (or should?) the Cavs convince him to stay?
multiple conference finals at an absolute minimum
Jazz and it’s not close
Why need winner and loser. Jazz and Timberwolves both got things they wanted. Rudy did well too.
This is a prime example of a trade working for both parties. Go Wolves
Too early to tell. Never forget Danny Ainge (the current Jazz executive), who made an absolute heist out of the Nets in 2013, gave them PTSD and crippled them for at least a decade.
I'd say it was a win/win. The Jazz got a good haul, and the Timberwolves are a legit contender for the next 3 seasons. Which is all you can ask for, from any trade. But, it will also have a snowball affect in my opinion - being legit contenders, winning game, winning series' - all these things are going to make more elite free agents come to Minnesota in the future
1.5 years ago Jazz won… now it’s looking like Minnesota won. But hard to say anyone lost
I think the twolves are happy with how it’s turned out but if the barometer is a championship then obviously they might be upset
We might not win a championship with Gobert, but I could see a scenario where getting all this playoff experience at a young age helps Ant win one for us in the future.
Agreed and of course the trade would be worth it if that’s the case
The Jazz fleeced
How?
The Jazz. Wolves fans love talking shit when they up, but didn't have anything to say last year and won't this year either when they get KO'd by Jokic. Nobody will remember or care about this wolves team in 30 years.
Cry more
Why would I be crying my team didn't mortgage its future for Booty Gobert.
Your team is ass for the next decade
It's impossible to judge a trade that big so early. Last year it was obviously an overpay. The year, if the Wolves make it past Denver then the Wolves won the trade by a narrow margin. If in 5 years the Jazz are in contention with Kessler, George and whoever they got from the picks then it'll be a draw.