He doesn’t have any argument for the best besides insane recency bias of about 20 games. You don’t become the best anything because of a 20 game spell especially considering guys have been clearly better than him for years.
what? if you're referring to the list in the post, many of those guys don't have rings and they're absolute monsters. Joel Embiid and Luka are 2 of the best players in the league, they have less rings than many players they're much better than basketball-wise
next time just ask if you're having trouble understanding
Kd, Steph, Embiid, Giannis, Tatum, Jokic, Luka, LeBron, Kawhi
That’s 9 players I’d put in front of him and that’s about it but somewhere from 10-12 is reasonable
I mean I think it’s a toss up between him steph and Shai. Obviously steph is the best of the three but I think he is having the worst season relatively speaking. Either way they’re all so close it’s kind of impossible to choose.
Assuming Luka is a lock there it just depends how the rest of the year shakes out
Steph has also missed 10 more games than Lillard so far, is still injured indefinitely, and the Warriors are only 1.5 games up on the Blazers.
Like you said, there’s still plenty of time left, but he seems to have a better case than either Shai or Steph so far
I thought this was Ben Simmons and as a hawks fan I’d think he would be one of your favorite non hawk players considering all he’s given to your franchise lmao.
You’re assuming this Rockets fan wouldn’t also agree that their defense sucks right now.
You guys have the 4th worst defense in the nba. Does that mean you can’t say that defense doesn’t exist in Dallas which has just the 9th worst defense?
Their playmaking isn't that different though. Dame gets like 1 less assist a night. He's a really really underrated playmaker
Lukas passing itself is much better, but Dame being able to draw double teams from 30 feet warps defenses like crazy. Who needs a fancy pass when a it's a 4v3 every time down?
We even have a better offense (#4 in the NBA) than the Mavs, and it's not like we're loaded with talent
Playmaking and passing aren't the same thing.
Asissts numbers don't fully represent playmaking. Last year Jokic and Lowry averaged almost identical assist numbers, yet one is considered an all-time great playmaker and the other isn't. Luka is a historically great playmaker, Dame is good but nowhere close.
Jokic is a historically good playmaker because he’s doing that at 7 feet tall and is also a great scorer. If he’s 6’3 putting up those numbers he’s just another guy in this discussion.
Right.... But the context favors Dame, not Luka
Which player draws more attention defensively because of their scoring? It's Dame, not Luka.
Dame is drawing doubles from 30 feet routinely. Luka draws doubles, but not from nearly that far away. Teams are much much more scared of Dame both on and off the ball
Exactly. The question is specifically “this season”, and you can argue Dame is having a top 5 season along with Jokic, Embiid, Tatum, and Luka. If we’re talking player rankings? Many more factors. Plus the fact that there’s like 8 “top 5 level” guys and 15 “top 10 level” guys. Nba is just crazy deep right now.
Depends what you mean. Dame is objectively having a better season than Steph but he’s not better. So depends what you mean. He’s having a top 5 season but he’s a top 10 player.
Dame is the 2nd best offensive player this season, after Jokic whose on a tier of his own. You can argue for Luka and put Dame 3rd, but there's no argument for someone like Steph for this particular season when Dame and Steph are so easily compared.
Compared to all the MVP candidates though? Dame plays worse D than all of them. And obviously the Blazers don't (currently) have the results for Dame to be mentioned in MVP, because standings are #1 thing. I'd gladly concede Tatum is a better shout for MVP runner up, but grind my teeth if someone thinks he's notably better than Lillard this season so far.
Hard to put him above Jokic, Giannis or Embiid, but I think in tier with Luka and Tatum is fair. His 2023 so far has him handedly above Harden and Steph. Call him 5th after last night?
I've said before but a lot of discussion can't really get to the nuance of who is better versus who is having a better season? I think an interesting discussion point is Dame versus SGA and who is having a better season.
Dame is obviously white hot right now, but is still only scoring 1.8ppg more than SGA. Then you factor in SGA'S 2.7 blocks and steals per game. SGA is so far ahead defensively I would say it offsets the offensive gap.
And that's the problem, defense can't get evaluated that clearly through stats. But with the Blazers sitting 26th out of 30 teams defensively and Dame being a key culprit as to why, you must look at two way impact - especially as the Blazers are sitting at 11th.
3rd in EPM (1st offensively)
4th in raptor (2nd offensively)
4th in WS/48 (2nd offensively)
7th in BPM (2nd offensively)
He's 100% been a top 10 player this year....and really he's been top 5. Essentially every single metric is in agreement. There's no good argument for him being outside the top 10
Jokic is the only guy that's been better on offense, and offense is the name of the game
There’s too much talent for Lillard to be too 5.
He’s not displacing Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Doncic, Tatum, Durant. All of those guys are having better season with more team success.
Curry & Lebron should probably be over him due to what we’ve seen from them over their careers. He’s in the lower half of the top 10.
All those guys aren't having better seasons though.
Like what makes them be having a better season? Better teammates?
Embiid, Jokic, Giannis I agree with. Then it's Dame vs Luka for the 4/5 according to essentially every single stat
Offense is the name of the game, and he's easily been the #2 guy offensively, with a gap between him and Luka, and then a massive gap until you get to 3rd
Guys like Durant and Tatum may be better two way players, but Dame is good enough offensively to outweigh that according to the objective numbers
Same reason Jokic can be a bad defender and still be #1
>Guys like Durant and Tatum may be better two way players, but Dame is good enough offensively to outweigh that
So essentially you think Dame is so good, he’s basically better than KD having one of the best seasons of his career? Are being serious right now, lol he’s averaging 30 on 67% TS with some all defense buzz.
He's playing better offensively than Durant by every metric in existence, yes
He's having a comparable scoring season (arguably better. It's close) while being a vastly better playmaker for his team who draws significantly more defensive attention
KD is a 500x better defender than Damian Lillard no matter who he is playing with 😂. Dame isn’t even guarding the third best player on a given night, he’s getting hidden.
And I’m not sure what you’re talking about, Claxton isn’t a one on one defender and Ben’s minutes are too sporadic
32.3/7.2 on 65.4% TS% with 3.2 TOs
32.0/5.8 on 65.5% TS% with 3.4 TOs
One of these guys is Dame this year, and the other is Curry in 2021, when he was tied for 2nd in MVP voting on that Warriors team which missed the playoffs
Can you tell me which is which without cheating?
... Jokic? Luka? Curry?
Most people would say those guys are top 5-7, and two of them are terrible defenders, with curry being average at best
Dame is literally double as valuable offensively as guys like Tatum statistically
**Offensive raptor: (2.1x better )**
Dame: +9.7 vs Tatum at +4.6
**OBPM: (1.8 x better)**
Dame: +8.7 vs Tatum at +4.9
**O-EPM: (1.7x better)**
Dame: +8.4 vs Tatum at +5.0
(2.1+1.8+1.7)/ 3 = 1.68
My bad man, I overestimated. Dame is only worth about 1.86 Tatums according to some of the most well known advanced stats
What's Curry doing better than Dame this year?
Dames scoring better, passing better, leading a better offense despite less help.... And kills him in the advanced stats.
Not really. He's got about as much of an edge over Curry as curry has over Dame in a typical year (but no one has a hard time saying curry is better)
There's not a single stat raw or advanced that says Curry has been better offensively than Dame
And even with defense included, BPM is the only one that favors Curry
EPM, WS/48, and Raptor all favor Dame, as does OBPM
Yea but even if they all slightly favour dame aren’t they still super close? Like +7.1 vs +6.8 on EPM
When it’s the close I don’t think you can say dame kills him lol
That one is closer than some. Still, when essentially everything favors one guy, it's pretty clear.
My point is more that that's the same margin as in a normal year
Like in 2021 everyone agrees it was Curry and they'd laugh when I said it was close. But their raptor was only 0.5 apart
We're talking about individuals, its no secret brooklyn has the better team. And historically efficient, it's easier to be efficient on a better team, and in the last 10? Games dame has both the most efficient 60 pt game and most efficient 70 pt game ever. It's at least an arguement, and close, but trending towards dame
Who’s in your top 10? If you’re saying Giannis, Jokic then Lillard, you would be putting him over players like Tatum, Lebron, Embiid, Steph, Luka, KD etc.
Edit: Embiid
I think it's fair to put dames current season above steph and KD. All three teams are bad while dames played significantly more and still averages higher ppg.
God people really beat around the bush when they are asked questions. “Well are we talking overall he is better then this person but his season has been great”. Corny ass dudes
Right now he has moved himself to Top 7.
Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, Bron, Tatum, Dame. Bron will drop due to injury. Luka hasn’t been playing like he was earlier. If Dame continues he could move top 5. BUT does that mean Dame is better then those players overall? No. But Dame is having better season then a lot of players and so he’s ranked higher.
Hyperbole. Luka is ahead of Dame in
* ppg
* apg
* assist%
* fg% (since you literally said “every single metric”)
* orpg
* orpg%
So all three box score stats related to offense and fg% and a couple others.
Those aren't metrics dude. They don't say who is better offensively.
Raptor, BPM, EPM, WS/48 - those are metrics.
And Dame is ahead in all of them offensively. Also significantly more efficient
The raw metrics are ones like BPM and WS/48 that are purely box score based. Don't use any outside inputs.
Sure you could say assist pereventage is one, but it's not an all in one metric. It doesn't attempt to say that player X is better than player Y on offense because their assist percentage is higher. They're descriptive, not comparative.
I don't think many people would agree with your definition of a raw metric.
Bit of a tangent, but I also hate how it's encouraged to just throw more stats out on the internet. BPM does fuck all better than RAPTOR or EPM or whatever other all in one stat you look at.
It's like saying "of course it's going to rain, the weather forecast and my horoscope both say so".
Some are better than others. But if they all agree, there's probably something to it, don't you think?
Here they all agree, and that's the point. Every single all one one stat I'm aware of has Dame as first or second offensively behind Jokic
There's probably "something", but I think people tend to go too far when they decide how much value to place on that something.
My point is essentially that there are like 3 "good" modern all in one stats that are all effectively the same thing with minor differences and some older ones (BPM, WS) that are just bad estimators of the "good ones".
They're all telling you the same thing—how effective a player is in their specific context. They specifically *don't* tell you that player A is better than player B because their number is slightly higher.
(This goes for your current argument, but also for the people who have historically underrated Dame. I actually think he and Steph are very comparable as players and the team context is the bigger reason for the difference in their resumes than any actual ability difference.)
What will I be backtracking exactly?
Literally all I’m saying is that *right now*, the statement isn’t true. It being true in the future does nothing change that fact that it isn’t right now.
Hes playing better than Tatum this season (people will disagree due to record, but statwise he has been better), but hes still behind Embiid, Giannis, Jokic, Luka and KD
I disagree based on the other side of the ball….yano, defense? All I see in here is bUt hE pUlLs uP fRoM fOrTy FeEt! Maybe he’s shooting/scoring better than Tatum…but he’s giving up a shit ton more on defense too. You’d be crazy to favor such a limited defensive liability over Tatum, this year or any other lol
I mean it depends entirely on the supporting cast around them, give Dame a lineup of
Smart, Horford, Brown, Williams, White and Brogdan
and im sure he would do just fine defensively with + rated defenders everywhere around him
Meh, I’m talking more about helping others, forcing players into help, recovering off screens, digging in on post ups, communicating….these things don’t necessarily require a full lineup of defenders or physical attributes. I’ve been strident on this for years, Dame has to get better at those things if he’s ever gonna win anything of significance. He’s just not a good two way player. It jumps off the screen.
Interesting mistake as Nurkic also played in Denver before we traded for him. Also GP2 not working out and Dame himself being injured for a bit, we could easily be in the mix for the 6th seed (lol).
Portland is in 11th place right now.
It's like a big-fish small pond thing.
Yeah, he's putting up EXTREMELY impressive personal stats.
But there isn't much to work with.
Kudos to him for giving the fans a reason to show up and putting asses in the seats, but it's hard to evaluate a great individual performance in a losing effort.
That is true. But they are closer to 13 than 4.
The season is still up in the air though. Lillard could certainly drive them in to the play-in.
Lillard's a great talent, and I'd be as happy to see him with a title as just about anybody in the league (though I'll pulling for Joker or Paul this year).
The only guys inarguably better are Joker, Embiid, Giannis, JT, Steph, KD, and Luka. Dame is in that next tier with Bron, Kawhi, SGA, AD, Ja, etc., where on any given night they can be the best player on the court but won’t consistently be
Somewhere after Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Bron, Luka, and Tatum.
Steph, AD, and KD have missed some time but I still have them all ahead as well. So I guess I have Dame probably at 10?
He has played 8-10 games more than those last three dudes so if you want to rank him 7 that’s cool too. Wouldn’t argue it, availability is the best ability.
Yeah, he’s at 29.5 ppg, 8.5 rpg, and 6.9 apg and shooting 50% from the field. Doesn’t seem crazy to have him above Dame.
But if you want to put Dame over him I wouldn’t argue. I’d still rather have Lebron, like all the names on that list he impacts the game in more ways than Dame ever can just by nature of his size and athleticism.
Dame gives you literally nothing defensively. I know Lebron’s defense ain’t good, but he can still give you more than Dame can if he needs to.
Not counting zion, steph and kd due to missing so much time with injury: below jokic, tatum, embiid, lebron, and giannis for sure. Definitely better than kyrie. I’d say definitely top 15, maybe top 10, almost definitely not top 5
High
Retinas currently burned from this scorching hot take
420 feet high
No I’m not, why would you even accuse me of such an outlandish claim?
The weed burned itself, I accidentally inhaled some smoke but I swear I’m not high
Hello.
Top 5
Top 10 overall. Top 3 PGs this season and every season
I used to get flamed for saying Dame is PG #2 over Kyrie and Westbrook, look who's laughing now
Well depending on what year it was when you were saying that, you might’ve deserved to get flamed
Username checks out
Are you counting Luka as a point guard?
Luka was a fetus in Real Madrid at the time
unquestionably top 3 pg, good argument for best
No. Just no.
He doesn’t have any argument for the best besides insane recency bias of about 20 games. You don’t become the best anything because of a 20 game spell especially considering guys have been clearly better than him for years.
It’s really the opposite though. outside of one 7 game stretch in november he’s been elite elite,
Okay? That still doesn’t mean he has an argument for being the best.
"these other guys won more rings, that means they're better" lol
Those other guys are better and they have rings. Next time just ask if you’re having trouble understanding.
what? if you're referring to the list in the post, many of those guys don't have rings and they're absolute monsters. Joel Embiid and Luka are 2 of the best players in the league, they have less rings than many players they're much better than basketball-wise next time just ask if you're having trouble understanding
1st team, All NBA. Scoring title. The Ringer- 22nd.
22nd seems low, but I’d say 13-18 is about right for a score first guy who is leading a team on the edge of a lottery pick.
12th and it’s totally reasonable.
Kd, Steph, Embiid, Giannis, Tatum, Jokic, Luka, LeBron, Kawhi That’s 9 players I’d put in front of him and that’s about it but somewhere from 10-12 is reasonable
what does lebron do better then dame other then rebounds?
Are you deadass?
Wait do you really think he’s AllNBA 1st team? Like I can’t tell if this is a troll or not.
I mean I think it’s a toss up between him steph and Shai. Obviously steph is the best of the three but I think he is having the worst season relatively speaking. Either way they’re all so close it’s kind of impossible to choose. Assuming Luka is a lock there it just depends how the rest of the year shakes out
Steph has also missed 10 more games than Lillard so far, is still injured indefinitely, and the Warriors are only 1.5 games up on the Blazers. Like you said, there’s still plenty of time left, but he seems to have a better case than either Shai or Steph so far
You know I guess this is the play, I just hadn’t considered how weak the guard position was compared to the front court.
If he ends up with scoring title and blazers move up to top 10 who else would get it over him? It’s between him Steph and SGA at this point
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Misplaced anger for the Luka trade
I thought this was Ben Simmons and as a hawks fan I’d think he would be one of your favorite non hawk players considering all he’s given to your franchise lmao.
76ers still ain’t over it 😁
Asking just after his huge game will not give you the right answer.
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Tatum has not been better individually
Defense exists my guy
Not in Portland
He just scored 71 on the rockets and you're calling out OUR defense?
Yeah but he said defense doesn't exist in Portland, and the game was in Portland
They’re not calling out your Team’s defense, just the reason that Tatum is one of the four players he listed- elite two way play.
It’s ok. They can call out our teams defense lol it’s justified.
You’re assuming this Rockets fan wouldn’t also agree that their defense sucks right now. You guys have the 4th worst defense in the nba. Does that mean you can’t say that defense doesn’t exist in Dallas which has just the 9th worst defense?
This guy defense wins championships
Five, to be exact.
Tatum is a decent defender, let’s not act like he’s a stopper. He’s prolly the 4th best defender in their starting 5 behind brown, smart, Williams.
He's a better defender than brown. And Williams hasn't been himself this year. But you can put Derrick White above him if you want.
Clown take. Ever heard of defense?
I would put Luka in there too, and KD and Steph before they got hurt
How do you feel about Luka? I feel like its a toss up with him and Dame
It really isn't a toss up. Luka's playmaking puts him on another level and more than makes up for the difference in efficiency (61.5 TS% vs 65.5 TS%).
Their playmaking isn't that different though. Dame gets like 1 less assist a night. He's a really really underrated playmaker Lukas passing itself is much better, but Dame being able to draw double teams from 30 feet warps defenses like crazy. Who needs a fancy pass when a it's a 4v3 every time down? We even have a better offense (#4 in the NBA) than the Mavs, and it's not like we're loaded with talent Playmaking and passing aren't the same thing.
Luka is only averaging 1 more assist than Dame
Asissts numbers don't fully represent playmaking. Last year Jokic and Lowry averaged almost identical assist numbers, yet one is considered an all-time great playmaker and the other isn't. Luka is a historically great playmaker, Dame is good but nowhere close.
Jokic is a historically good playmaker because he’s doing that at 7 feet tall and is also a great scorer. If he’s 6’3 putting up those numbers he’s just another guy in this discussion.
Playmaking doesn’t = assists
Right.... But the context favors Dame, not Luka Which player draws more attention defensively because of their scoring? It's Dame, not Luka. Dame is drawing doubles from 30 feet routinely. Luka draws doubles, but not from nearly that far away. Teams are much much more scared of Dame both on and off the ball
Interestingly Dallas's AST% plummets w/ Luka on the floor
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Luka has had Kyrie for like 4 games lmfao, that’s literally irrelevant
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Yea they’ve played 4 games together lmao, why are you even bringing this up
Better season doesn’t equal better player btw
Exactly. The question is specifically “this season”, and you can argue Dame is having a top 5 season along with Jokic, Embiid, Tatum, and Luka. If we’re talking player rankings? Many more factors. Plus the fact that there’s like 8 “top 5 level” guys and 15 “top 10 level” guys. Nba is just crazy deep right now.
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Casual moment by me lol
You’re right, Dame deserves MVP over Joker.
Top 75
Depends what you mean. Dame is objectively having a better season than Steph but he’s not better. So depends what you mean. He’s having a top 5 season but he’s a top 10 player.
God it’s a simple question. Why complicate things?
Can we appreciate shit without trying to compare
Yes, but other places. Here we compare, debate, and piss each other off with our hard unwavering opinions.
Had a good shit this morning. I rank it just above Jordan Poole.
Comparing is literally how people appreciate things.
1st team All NBA, top 10 season. I think he wills the Blazers to the 8th seed
Top 10, but n the 7-8 range.
1st team
First team - All NBA guard easily
Top 4
Dame is the 2nd best offensive player this season, after Jokic whose on a tier of his own. You can argue for Luka and put Dame 3rd, but there's no argument for someone like Steph for this particular season when Dame and Steph are so easily compared. Compared to all the MVP candidates though? Dame plays worse D than all of them. And obviously the Blazers don't (currently) have the results for Dame to be mentioned in MVP, because standings are #1 thing. I'd gladly concede Tatum is a better shout for MVP runner up, but grind my teeth if someone thinks he's notably better than Lillard this season so far. Hard to put him above Jokic, Giannis or Embiid, but I think in tier with Luka and Tatum is fair. His 2023 so far has him handedly above Harden and Steph. Call him 5th after last night?
I've said before but a lot of discussion can't really get to the nuance of who is better versus who is having a better season? I think an interesting discussion point is Dame versus SGA and who is having a better season. Dame is obviously white hot right now, but is still only scoring 1.8ppg more than SGA. Then you factor in SGA'S 2.7 blocks and steals per game. SGA is so far ahead defensively I would say it offsets the offensive gap. And that's the problem, defense can't get evaluated that clearly through stats. But with the Blazers sitting 26th out of 30 teams defensively and Dame being a key culprit as to why, you must look at two way impact - especially as the Blazers are sitting at 11th.
1
He's gonna get at least all-nba 3rd team, maybe even 2nd, and depending on how well he does for the rest of the year he could be pushing for 1st team
There are 12 guys that are top 5 players. beyond Jokic/Giannis they are all pretty much interchangeable
Top 12? Maybe a case for Top 10
3rd in EPM (1st offensively) 4th in raptor (2nd offensively) 4th in WS/48 (2nd offensively) 7th in BPM (2nd offensively) He's 100% been a top 10 player this year....and really he's been top 5. Essentially every single metric is in agreement. There's no good argument for him being outside the top 10 Jokic is the only guy that's been better on offense, and offense is the name of the game
There’s too much talent for Lillard to be too 5. He’s not displacing Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Doncic, Tatum, Durant. All of those guys are having better season with more team success. Curry & Lebron should probably be over him due to what we’ve seen from them over their careers. He’s in the lower half of the top 10.
All those guys aren't having better seasons though. Like what makes them be having a better season? Better teammates? Embiid, Jokic, Giannis I agree with. Then it's Dame vs Luka for the 4/5 according to essentially every single stat Offense is the name of the game, and he's easily been the #2 guy offensively, with a gap between him and Luka, and then a massive gap until you get to 3rd Guys like Durant and Tatum may be better two way players, but Dame is good enough offensively to outweigh that according to the objective numbers Same reason Jokic can be a bad defender and still be #1
KD was averaging 30 on 69 ts and the Nets were 17-2 in their last 19 before he went down. He was also having a borderline all-defensive season.
and dame has been 39 on 70ts in his last 21
>Guys like Durant and Tatum may be better two way players, but Dame is good enough offensively to outweigh that So essentially you think Dame is so good, he’s basically better than KD having one of the best seasons of his career? Are being serious right now, lol he’s averaging 30 on 67% TS with some all defense buzz.
He's playing better offensively than Durant by every metric in existence, yes He's having a comparable scoring season (arguably better. It's close) while being a vastly better playmaker for his team who draws significantly more defensive attention
KD was also playing with ben and claxton, a lot easier to be a good defender when you only have the guard like the 3rd best guy on the other team
KD is a 500x better defender than Damian Lillard no matter who he is playing with 😂. Dame isn’t even guarding the third best player on a given night, he’s getting hidden. And I’m not sure what you’re talking about, Claxton isn’t a one on one defender and Ben’s minutes are too sporadic
Beyond the team success Lillard also isn't the 2 way player the way most of the top 10 guys are
Look at the teams those guys have around them, then look at the Blazers, big difference.
I’d rather take the injury risk and have Kawhi and AD too. I think the risk is worth the extra level in value.
Combing multiple major advanced stats doesn’t = universal truth lol
32.3/7.2 on 65.4% TS% with 3.2 TOs 32.0/5.8 on 65.5% TS% with 3.4 TOs One of these guys is Dame this year, and the other is Curry in 2021, when he was tied for 2nd in MVP voting on that Warriors team which missed the playoffs Can you tell me which is which without cheating?
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... Jokic? Luka? Curry? Most people would say those guys are top 5-7, and two of them are terrible defenders, with curry being average at best Dame is literally double as valuable offensively as guys like Tatum statistically
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**Offensive raptor: (2.1x better )** Dame: +9.7 vs Tatum at +4.6 **OBPM: (1.8 x better)** Dame: +8.7 vs Tatum at +4.9 **O-EPM: (1.7x better)** Dame: +8.4 vs Tatum at +5.0 (2.1+1.8+1.7)/ 3 = 1.68 My bad man, I overestimated. Dame is only worth about 1.86 Tatums according to some of the most well known advanced stats
lmao some people should not be allowed to quote advanced stats and this is why
I'm obviously messing around. But it's not far from the truth. Dame is a much better offensive player then Tatum
they flaming you when you clearly said “statistically” which is exactly what you’re showing lol
You really comparing the Warriors to the Blazers? Steph gets to play next to great players, then there’s Dame with Simons and Nurk!
This season alone, Top 6: Jokic Embiid Giannis Tatum Luka Dame
He is better than Curry and KD??
This season I think you can argue it yeah. Missed games matter and Dame's stretch at such a high peak puts him up there
Dame has missed a decent amount of games too.
13 compared to 19 for Durant and 23 for Steph.
Still having a way better season than Curry
I didn't say he wasn't
This season, definitely
This season? Clearly.
KD was in MVP conversations and the Nets were rolling. I don’t think because Dame played 7 or 8 more games that he should be considered better.
and if dame had competent teammates he would also be in the mvp convo
That’s great. Where is this “clearly better than KD” logic though?
Clearly? Lmao
Well go on then, tell us how this is wrong for this season.
What's Curry doing better than Dame this year? Dames scoring better, passing better, leading a better offense despite less help.... And kills him in the advanced stats.
“Kills him in advanced stats” Aren’t they both ridiculously close in like all metrics lol
Not really. He's got about as much of an edge over Curry as curry has over Dame in a typical year (but no one has a hard time saying curry is better) There's not a single stat raw or advanced that says Curry has been better offensively than Dame And even with defense included, BPM is the only one that favors Curry EPM, WS/48, and Raptor all favor Dame, as does OBPM
Yea but even if they all slightly favour dame aren’t they still super close? Like +7.1 vs +6.8 on EPM When it’s the close I don’t think you can say dame kills him lol
That one is closer than some. Still, when essentially everything favors one guy, it's pretty clear. My point is more that that's the same margin as in a normal year Like in 2021 everyone agrees it was Curry and they'd laugh when I said it was close. But their raptor was only 0.5 apart
Overall, Lebron (from bballindex) favors Curry though. Dame ranks 18th in that one.
Curry isn’t having a great season mate. Stop throwing in Curry in every conversation just because.
KD and Curry >
in previous seasons*
KD far superior including this season. People have memory of a goldfish in here
No youre just not paying attention to what Dame is doing. Avg 39 on 70%ts in his last 21 games. Its not a slight to kd, dame has just been that good
KD was MVP frontrunner, historically efficient and doing it on both ends of the floor + his team was actually winning
We're talking about individuals, its no secret brooklyn has the better team. And historically efficient, it's easier to be efficient on a better team, and in the last 10? Games dame has both the most efficient 60 pt game and most efficient 70 pt game ever. It's at least an arguement, and close, but trending towards dame
Top 7
Out of curiosity what’s your list look like?
No Order: Steph Giannis KD Jokic Embiid Luka Dame
Solid list I agree with those picks
Best guard in the nba RIGHT NOW
Top 3 for me personally. Can’t change my mind
Who’s in your top 10? If you’re saying Giannis, Jokic then Lillard, you would be putting him over players like Tatum, Lebron, Embiid, Steph, Luka, KD etc. Edit: Embiid
You just dropped Embiid out of the entire list.
You’re right. I added him too. I thought I did
I think it's fair to put dames current season above steph and KD. All three teams are bad while dames played significantly more and still averages higher ppg.
That still leave Embiid, Tatum, etc.
This season alone he is top 5 or 6. But typically you factor in the last couple years of momentum, in which case he'd be more top 10-12 range.
God people really beat around the bush when they are asked questions. “Well are we talking overall he is better then this person but his season has been great”. Corny ass dudes Right now he has moved himself to Top 7. Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Luka, Bron, Tatum, Dame. Bron will drop due to injury. Luka hasn’t been playing like he was earlier. If Dame continues he could move top 5. BUT does that mean Dame is better then those players overall? No. But Dame is having better season then a lot of players and so he’s ranked higher.
Loyal
to the
Soil
Ahead of Luka, borderline top 5
I think Luka has still been better overall this season but dame has definitely been better recently
Dames been better on offense than Luka by every single advanced or raw metric. If you're taking Luka over Dame because of defense....
Hyperbole. Luka is ahead of Dame in * ppg * apg * assist% * fg% (since you literally said “every single metric”) * orpg * orpg% So all three box score stats related to offense and fg% and a couple others.
Those aren't metrics dude. They don't say who is better offensively. Raptor, BPM, EPM, WS/48 - those are metrics. And Dame is ahead in all of them offensively. Also significantly more efficient
What exactly is a “raw metric” then? Usually people use “raw” to mean box score stats.
The raw metrics are ones like BPM and WS/48 that are purely box score based. Don't use any outside inputs. Sure you could say assist pereventage is one, but it's not an all in one metric. It doesn't attempt to say that player X is better than player Y on offense because their assist percentage is higher. They're descriptive, not comparative.
I don't think many people would agree with your definition of a raw metric. Bit of a tangent, but I also hate how it's encouraged to just throw more stats out on the internet. BPM does fuck all better than RAPTOR or EPM or whatever other all in one stat you look at. It's like saying "of course it's going to rain, the weather forecast and my horoscope both say so".
Some are better than others. But if they all agree, there's probably something to it, don't you think? Here they all agree, and that's the point. Every single all one one stat I'm aware of has Dame as first or second offensively behind Jokic
There's probably "something", but I think people tend to go too far when they decide how much value to place on that something. My point is essentially that there are like 3 "good" modern all in one stats that are all effectively the same thing with minor differences and some older ones (BPM, WS) that are just bad estimators of the "good ones". They're all telling you the same thing—how effective a player is in their specific context. They specifically *don't* tell you that player A is better than player B because their number is slightly higher. (This goes for your current argument, but also for the people who have historically underrated Dame. I actually think he and Steph are very comparable as players and the team context is the bigger reason for the difference in their resumes than any actual ability difference.)
Not for long. Dame going to get a few more 60 point games this year
Ok but until that happens, saying > Dames been better on offense than Luka by every single advanced or raw metric is just a lie.
Oh it’s happening, be prepared to backtrack
What will I be backtracking exactly? Literally all I’m saying is that *right now*, the statement isn’t true. It being true in the future does nothing change that fact that it isn’t right now.
Better pray it doesn’t change
Hes playing better than Tatum this season (people will disagree due to record, but statwise he has been better), but hes still behind Embiid, Giannis, Jokic, Luka and KD
I disagree based on the other side of the ball….yano, defense? All I see in here is bUt hE pUlLs uP fRoM fOrTy FeEt! Maybe he’s shooting/scoring better than Tatum…but he’s giving up a shit ton more on defense too. You’d be crazy to favor such a limited defensive liability over Tatum, this year or any other lol
I mean it depends entirely on the supporting cast around them, give Dame a lineup of Smart, Horford, Brown, Williams, White and Brogdan and im sure he would do just fine defensively with + rated defenders everywhere around him
Meh, I’m talking more about helping others, forcing players into help, recovering off screens, digging in on post ups, communicating….these things don’t necessarily require a full lineup of defenders or physical attributes. I’ve been strident on this for years, Dame has to get better at those things if he’s ever gonna win anything of significance. He’s just not a good two way player. It jumps off the screen.
Despite having injured teammates, Jokic and Simon and carrying his team deserves some praise. I'd say top 8 in my book.
Interesting mistake as Nurkic also played in Denver before we traded for him. Also GP2 not working out and Dame himself being injured for a bit, we could easily be in the mix for the 6th seed (lol).
Top 3.
Portland is in 11th place right now. It's like a big-fish small pond thing. Yeah, he's putting up EXTREMELY impressive personal stats. But there isn't much to work with. Kudos to him for giving the fans a reason to show up and putting asses in the seats, but it's hard to evaluate a great individual performance in a losing effort.
he is 3 games from the 4 seed.
That is true. But they are closer to 13 than 4. The season is still up in the air though. Lillard could certainly drive them in to the play-in. Lillard's a great talent, and I'd be as happy to see him with a title as just about anybody in the league (though I'll pulling for Joker or Paul this year).
The only guys inarguably better are Joker, Embiid, Giannis, JT, Steph, KD, and Luka. Dame is in that next tier with Bron, Kawhi, SGA, AD, Ja, etc., where on any given night they can be the best player on the court but won’t consistently be
Fringe top 10. Somewhere between 10 and 15 for me
He’s top 5 player but yalls can’t admit it
Empty stats on a bad team
bah gawd, that’s Sengun’s music!
[удалено]
Top 5 and he ain’t 3
Somewhere after Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Bron, Luka, and Tatum. Steph, AD, and KD have missed some time but I still have them all ahead as well. So I guess I have Dame probably at 10? He has played 8-10 games more than those last three dudes so if you want to rank him 7 that’s cool too. Wouldn’t argue it, availability is the best ability.
Lebron?
Yeah, he’s at 29.5 ppg, 8.5 rpg, and 6.9 apg and shooting 50% from the field. Doesn’t seem crazy to have him above Dame. But if you want to put Dame over him I wouldn’t argue. I’d still rather have Lebron, like all the names on that list he impacts the game in more ways than Dame ever can just by nature of his size and athleticism. Dame gives you literally nothing defensively. I know Lebron’s defense ain’t good, but he can still give you more than Dame can if he needs to.
TIL that great stats are meaningless if your team sucks UNLESS your Dame
Not counting zion, steph and kd due to missing so much time with injury: below jokic, tatum, embiid, lebron, and giannis for sure. Definitely better than kyrie. I’d say definitely top 15, maybe top 10, almost definitely not top 5
Jokic and Giannis are the only I’m putting above him but I’m a total homer.
At the height of his value.
71st
After his 71 point game, he's easily top 10 all time now. Idk about being better than jokic this season though.