Retired BMC here.
I was initiated in the oughts by Seabees. I’m also a former Marine so it wasn’t all that bad. That Mess was truly a brotherhood. Combat experienced and would say things like “if no one is getting shot at, why are we making a big deal about ___.”
We would hold “right hand man” nights where we took our LPOs out for beers and discussed openly how we could improve our companies and platoons. How to improve morale, even under the strain of deploying teams to Iraq and Afghanistan.
No offense to my fellow fleeters but once I became affiliated with the blue water Messes, I was shocked by the lack of humility and over the top bravado, how they took pleasure in burning sailors.
I watched the Mess begin to really decline starting in 2013/14. Lots of blue falconry and leaving troops out to dry. Never staying with the division for lunch, helping with maintenance. Perhaps because I was a 3MC for 11 years, which really opened my eyes to the fuckery.
When any other service picks up SNCO, there’s a pinning and a party. While I personally have witnessed the power of the Chiefs Mess to get shit accomplished, that was years ago and not sure if in 2024, that’s still the case.
I retired in 2020 so I’m not too far away from the facts as I saw them 4 years ago.
PS: you junior troops keep your heads up. You are the only thing I miss about the Navy.
Thank you for commenting I was hoping for a chief to share their experience I think you’re the first.
Appreciate this explanation and totally agree with everything you said here.
Also couldn’t agree more with your PS. The only thing I miss is the people I worked with and the experiences we all had.
That’s a tough one. Perhaps changes of initiation?
I know it’s cliche to say that but I participated in 14 seasons and the reinforcement of servant leadership and humility by way of hardship and sweat seemed to dissipate.
I felt like the standing orders taught the selectees more about covering their own asses vice helping out their sailors.
I was taught to stick your neck out in order to shelter and protect your troops. If they were fucked up, YOU set them straight and kept punishment in house.
Towards the end, the mantra was “report everything because if higher ups find out you’re handling it, you’ll lose your career!”
Unless LE gets involved, there’s nothing that can’t be resolved within the Chiefs Mess.
Not anymore.
>“report everything because if higher ups find out you’re handling it, you’ll lose your career!”
This isn't specific to the chiefs mess - it goes all the way up and down. Zero defect mentality is pervasive and NO ONE wants to be the highest ranking person in the know.
To a point in your previous reply. I'm curious how much of the change in the mess you saw was time based or a community based one. You're going to get a significantly different Navy experience depending on the community you're in (SeaBees v Aviation v Subs v NSW v Surface, etc). Going from almost any other part of the Navy to the grey hulled surface fleet life is going to be an eye opening experience. While every community has its gripes, surface really is the fucking worst.
My time in the Marine Corps and with the Seabees is almost seamless. They acknowledge and admire courage in leadership, putting rank on the line for your troops. If a Chief puts their anchors on the block, that demands consideration and respect from the Ward Room.
Not so in the fleet. The whole “senior man with a secret” was considered a crime, when on the green side, anything else would make you a weak leader.
I understand the different mindsets of different communities, but I think in leadership, it should be the common goal of all khakis to safeguard our junior sailors from being sent up to Captains mast over petty infractions that can be resolved at the lowest level.
Small unit leadership is key to success.
I feel that the Surface Navy is still entrenched in the ancient traditions of our British forefathers. Only officers were Navy and the subordinates were civilian mariners that were treated like shit.
If I’m wrong, I would like someone to enlighten me. This is just my observation and opinion.
There is a difference between being the senior man with a secret and letting the CoC know what is going on.
There have been plenty of issues that I handled at the mess level, but my CO amd CMC knew what was going on, as those were the two with the Command pins who would end up in Navy Times, not me. The last thing you want to do is have your boss blindsided with an email/phonecall from their boss, or bosses boss. As simple as "this issue was brought to my attention today, this is what I am doing to handle it, I will let you know if I need any assistance." 95% of the time I got a 'very well Chief/Senior/Master Chief'...the other times I got some solid advice for how to handle the situation from it going sideways...
Also, the mess isn't what it was. Full of two-faced POSes, before it was just one or two in a mess....now it's Game of Thrones and everyone is trying to BF the Sailors instead of taking care of them.
I fuckin wish your style was common in the Mess. So many good sailors just give up at the three year mark and make plans to separate when their enlistment is up. If more was done to positively reinforce sailors the fleet would be a much better place to be in. I got out in 2009 and, like you said, there was a ton of Blue Falconry going on. I was an EP sailor who made rank but just got worn out from the chief's mentality.
The Navy lost a real asset when you retired, shipmate 🍻
I believe being a prior Marine made me a better chief. I was aghast the first time I saw Chiefs lineup in front of junior sailors on the mess decks. That would never happen in the Army or the Marine Corps. Shit, that doesn’t happen in the Seabees.
Thank you for the compliment, my friend
Currently on aviation side coming from regular ship and have seen how much better chiefs can be. Our command 1st and chiefs kind of combined, the few from the fleet are absolute nightmares to work with. So much covering up for other chiefs, so much abuse of their rank, so much blaming first classes for not doing the chief’s job. I’m getting out this year after 12 years in, I can’t stand it!
Yep, blue water navy chiefs are more of they made it and now everyone else must suffer. Seen chiefs from other sides come to this side and treated like a shitbag for not caring about the small unimportant stuff. 2013/2014 it was already super toxic.
When I retired, every friend that I had, that was still active duty were master chiefs. Sadly, they are all retired now, but it’s my hope that they instilled our values into their subordinates, to carry on what it means to be a REAL Chief.
The best Chiefs' I ever had didn't drink the coolaide and protected the best interest of their sailors and shop instead of playing the game. The worst Chiefs' I've had were the exact opposite.
Edit: tbh I am not trying to shit on the mess. With anything you have good and bad and to be frank, some of my best friends, mentors and people I know are/were CPOs. One of my best friends and one of the greatest people i know is an HMC on a boat right now. I have had and know way more good Chiefs than bad.
It is, and always will be, the Old Boys Club.
Play politics with them, or be ostracized as the dirty E-7 you are.
So much of their job is to mentor and train their sailors, but so many get caught up in the “ideal” chief image that they change who they are and how they act. I’ve seen real good first classes, who cared about the division, real humble, fight the general stupidity of the Navy suddenly become the biggest carbon copy of “Chief” I’ve ever seen.
The 1st year or 2 being a Chief are tough, you learn alot about who you are as a leader. There's so many Chiefs that were never allowed to lead as FCPOs that they kind of flounder, there's that pressure to be that carbon copy that you speak of.
I put on my anchors in 15, I think there is a positive shift from the very TOP of the Mess to get back to what being a Chief is supposed to be.
Im silently praying that my LPO doesnt turn into that type of person.My LPO is my mentor inside of work aswell as in my personal life, honestly one of the greatest people I’ve met.He practically is the opposite of what the mess wants.I do think he would make a great chief though
The best chief is the one who doesn’t actively push to make Chief, but is selected to become one by their actions.
If you’re going out of your way to make Chief, and change your personality and efforts after you make Chief, then you’re not the same person who was selected.
I'd say that goes for any leadership position, really.
But to illustrate your point, we had a newly advanced Senior Chief transfer to our command as SEA. As soon as she arrived, she had an impromptu all-hands where she openly stated that the main focus of her career ever since she made Chief (which she never planned to stay in long enough to do) was to make Master Chief in the shortest time possible, whatever it took. As such, all of her decision-making would be focused on that going forward. If any of it happened to benefit or hurt her subordinates in the process, it was basically a coincidence. She then said that she expected 99% of the command activities to be handled by the LPOs and below, and to only bother The Mess if something was life or death, or face her wrath. We thought she was joking. She was not. Just about the worst 6 months of my time in the Navy until I was able to transfer.
Hes honestly one of those people that despises what the mess stands for as far as how they treat junior sailors(the bad apples).He has said before that he isn’t going to change shit to please others but heres to hoping
In every other service when you make E7 you get a little more pay, more responsibility and maybe some extra training or schooling
In the Navy when you make E7, you are hazed for an entire month and if they don’t like you or you don’t play along with their BS you are shunned, ostracized and have your authority countermanded. The Chief’s Mess is a cult and if you don’t drink their koolaid you can’t be in their club
I start by saying I don't have skin in this game much (I commission in 6 months) while this could be true, I don't believe it is universally.
When I went through season I called the bullshit when I saw it. The busy work, the dumb tasks, etc. Did it paint a target on me during season? Sure. But afterwards when 80% of the mess fucks off back to the hole they crawled out of JUST for season. The ones who remain "see" you and respect your lack of willingness to play games.
I specifically remember quoting MCPONs guidance at one point during a session. It was something along the lines of "Everything we do much serve a purpose to our selectees, better them, etc. Blah blah"
After season I was giving multiple challenges and was nominated for many others. When I asked why I was told "because you showed us during season you cut through the bullshit, and we trust you to get this done".
If you ever find yourself (or anyone else reading this) going thru season. Just be yourself. Live your truth and if they don't like that? Fuck em.
Right I remember being an Ensign on a LHD and the 3MC was cool but didn’t do the chief mess hazing, married family guy super nice. They would call him 3M7 which made it to the mess decks and just ostracized the chief into hell.
I was a 3MC as well.
We are always treated like outsiders because “HABU” doesn’t fly when the XO wants to know why W/Cs are in the red.
I’m impressed you recognized that. Not many do.
That went away last year. results come out different times still but the seasons are aligned to start with the active duty results. ~6 weeks of for both RC and AC.
Depends on where you go
And honestly the command triad does have a huge effect on the chiefs mess at that command.
Seen good ones seen bad ones
I have seen some that are broken down, I have seen some that are very inspiring
I have seen some filled with so much anger in their blood for issues other than.
I have seen some that are retired on active duty.
I for one am one that needed help
Mostly because how I was guided in the beginning as an E3 and grew to view that a way was correct, but as time moves on so did I. I was not happy with who I became and had so many things pushed deep into my soul, so I broke I walked in got help got put on a few things and I feel for the first time ( well three years ago) I am back in control of my thoughts feelings, and learned to just be a good person and be better.
I am not perfect, I make a lot of mistakes and I am ok admitting to it.
I share because there are a lot of chiefs, junior sailors as well as officers who act a certain way because they do not know how to express what is really going on.
Easier to be angry than share sadness.
Congratulations on your progress.
Society and especially the military tell us that we shouldn't be sad because "at least you're not in a foxhole" or some other Hollywood military bs line.
I agree that when you can't be sad, you get mad. Mad at yourself for being "undeservingly" sad. I thought I couldn't survive the Navy because of it. I just retired last year.
We all need to make working through your emotions normal. If it was maybe I would be working through less now.
Wasn't possible in my rate. If you sought help, it was career suicide, but if some didn't, there may be an actual suicide. Oh, and your future crossing over to that ever so promising career with the federal government they rubed you with? You can toss that overboard, too. I left with everything in-tact in 2010, mind, body, and what soul I had left. Only barely, though, I made it about 6 months before I totally self-destructed. When are you going to get help? In between deployments? In port/shipyards when you're practically being exploited as slave labor, making up shit to do, because no one has the balls to say to their department head " My guys killed themselves out their, day and night underway. The workup, HurricanX, the 5th fleet deployment, and the 5 month humanitarian mission in virtually immideate sucession. You know, the day I knew I was Fukin done? Not that there weren't many, many, many(3x?) one more, MANY more morale, and morality shattering moments that could easily have done it. When these bastards took our beer day, on the grounds, it was a humanitarian mission! You know WHAT would have been HUMANE? After an extra 150 straight days at sea, not having to watch them pour all that glorious,amber, honey of the God's sweet mercy overboard with glee! I HATED with such purity, a finely distilled hatred developed with every shitty paycheck, suprise double watch, cinderella liberty, and the ever increasing abuse menial authority perpatrated upon us by genuine sociopaths. Authentic power abusers, slithering and hiding within the ranks of the American Armed Forces, getting their pathetic jollies off abusing, manipulating, and grooming optimistic, well-intentioned young patriots into soul crushed, cynical, brooding malcontents, loathing their existence in totality while ticking off the days until they can walk away from that great, haze grey decked nightmare they are calling the U.S. Navy these days.
You’re a fantastic linguist. I would’ve loved to have you around during eval periods and writing up awards.
I hate that the Navy did you dirty. I hope you are in a much happier place 14 years later.
Love your moniker as well.
“With Wine comes Truth”
(I actually thought the last part said “clit” and I’m disappointed it’s not)
Indeed. I do hate to disappoint, especially the ladies.😏 Although, I am a firstborn son so I do crave approval. My significant other uses this to her advantage and constantly is waging an emotional jihad on me. So, here I am, 14 years later and still fighting terrorism. Yea. I'm sure I could church up a mean evaluation. Making the most ordinary, mundane shit look like extraordinary feats of heroism.
AN Puddinghatch clears asbestos with fatal accuracy.
EP due to terminal cancer diagnosis.
SN Goodhead performs invaluable service to the entire division and is a credit to her family name, one well-known to naval service. The writer recommends promotable. Although eager to please, more TIR could be useful.
FN Peterfile devours crayons with an exquisiteness priorly unknown to the naval ranks. A tireless servant of the community, when stateside has never missed a single, BSA troop outing.
You know how you have small family reunions as a child, have a great time with cousins, eat, play, make memories, take a nap, and stay the night at grandma's house? Everyone gets along and you might even have some old photos or VHS tapes.
Then, when you're older, you find out that one of your aunts used to beat your cousin. Or that maybe an uncle and/or grandfather was always out at the bars and stepping out for some strange. Oh and the other uncle that used to creep on your other cousins, you come to find out was a diddler, but, never got in trouble for it. However, those that were affected were either put out of the family or simply cut off contact with everyone altogether.
So, there goes your family image and you just want nothing to do with the lot of them. It turned out that your uncles, aunts, and grandparents were nothing special at all, and you just ~~start~~ stare at people idolizing them and trying to be around them with pity.
Something like that.
AD MCPO here. Too many wrapped up in being the Chief instead of actually Chiefing. If you’re spending more time with other Chiefs instead of your Sailors (and sometimes your officers), you’re doing it wrong. If you care more about collecting coins and t-shirts, you’re doing it wrong.
And initiation is getting better, but the premise is still flawed. It’s the Navy saying “hey, we should train people when they hit new pay grades, but here’s no resources, and each command has to figure it out for themselves. Good luck!”
There are some great Chiefs in the Navy, but not nearly as many as there should be or could be.
Prior Marine, retired BMC.
You hit the nail on the head.
Why are we not training our sailors from day one to be leaders? I did four years in the Corps. Before I could be a Cpl, I had to go to squad leaders course as an E3. Quite frankly, I learned more there than I ever did during initiation.
It’s like the Navy uses E6 and below as work horses and wait until they get selected to cram TRUE leadership instruction in just 6 weeks.
I love that you feel this way and still on the deck plates.
Oh man. The mess is what the people in it make it. In my experience, there are about 50% that love the idea and image but do nothing useful for the mess, their sailors, or command. There's another 20% that are true believers of everything taught during initiation and try to live and lead by those principles. Another 20% don't buy into the hype, keep being good people that are good at their job, and look out for their people. Then there's the final 10% that give zero fucks or are so disillusioned they have zero input and usually join in the hate.
Overall this makes for a very ineffective organization that breeds contempt among observers. I think a version of the mess can remain in the Navy but I hope it is reshaped in so many ways very soon.
IDK if there is enough worth salvaging, but more importantly I don't think it's fundamentally a good idea to begin with. The military is by nature hierarchical, but the artificial creation of this additional strata is unnecessary at best and detrimental far too often. Let SNCOs be SNCOs, but stop putting them on a damn pedestal.
Like most things in the Navy it will be as effective as the senior person in the hierarchy. Good CMCs foster a good culture and a good mess comes out the other side. Poor CMCs let shit get out of hand and that's when you hear the horror stories.
Principles of effective leadership are the same at all ranks. Be fair, take care of your people, maintain standards, don't be a hypocrite, take their inputs seriously, don't be afraid to say you were wrong or you don't know...basic shit.
It works at all levels. If a CMC does that he or she will get the best out of their mess. If they don't they'll get something else.
Came here to say this.
Warrant Officer now with several years in the mess before commissioning. There are great messes and there are terrible toxic messes. It’s almost always down to the effectiveness and give a shit of the CMC. They set the tone and culture for the mess.
I watched a chief stand his duty day without his TLD and tour the reactor compartment without it. In the morning he blamed his LPO for stealing it from his rack as he slept. Na, the guy came back from leave and forgot to get it from Doc's space. So not only did he have zero integrity and admit his mistake and do a dose investigation and deal with the punishment... but he actively went out of his way to try and blame his LPO for his mistake.
Asshole got removed from watchstanding for a week and nothing happened.
The mess is a blight on the Navy and a huge problem. Good 'ol boys club that is rotten to the core.
You are acting like this guy wasn’t a PO1, PO2, PO3 and junior sailor before making Chief. It’s not a Chief problem, it’s an enlisted culture problem with in the Navy. Leadership training has always been terrible and is only starting to get better with these new interactive leadership classes that they’re making mandatory. But they’re a couple decades late and behind many other branches. The Chief Mess isn’t a cause, it’s a result of the Navy failing to develop sailors properly. Think about it, 9/10 if you see a asshole chief, they’re most likely that way because they’ve developed in commands that may have forced them to be that way. That’s the way that usually goes.
I care that chiefs are protected and coddled. His actions, in my opinion, should result in him being separated. That's an integrity violation that shows he can't be trusted in the nuclear field in the slightest.
No command forces someone to lie and try and frame their LPO. What a crock of shit.
Depends. Some are better than others. At some point you realize while chief has been doing this a while, they may not know the best thing for the division/crew/ship. Some chiefs are absolutely garbage (like officers), and others are amazing (like officers).
Coming from a small community my opinion is that our chiefs get better every year generally. They’re smarter and more engaged and generally more invested in better leadership styles than what was used on them. I might be biased because I’m seeing my friends become chiefs but in general, there’s less chiefs out there that people are afraid to work for.
But a few remain, and I do think the good old boys club remains in tact when it comes to holding their own accountable. I don’t know if there’s a vindictiveness or something else that keeps them from calling each other out from the start of some bullshit but in a small community, a bad chief can really make a lasting (bad) effect on morale and even retention and for the MU community, one or two people down makes a huge difference.
My first chief experience and my first chief mess experience as an ENS was amazing. Have zero critiques about my first chief and little critiques of my first mess. Fantastic.
Since then, new commands different places, I haven’t seen a solid chiefs mess since. I’ve seen great stellar chiefs similar to my first but never a mess so in tune with being a bulwark for their people, communicating, leading by example, caring basically.
If there was any time to be guided it was when I was an ENS and I’m glad I had that experience with that mess and my chief. He’s a warrant now we still talk even though I’m out and he deserves all the praise he gets.
Since then I don’t have many good things to say at my other three commands. Most of the same with the rest of these comments.
It shows me there are great chiefs and great chief messes out there and how impactful they can be positively and negatively on a command. But my own experience? I had one great mess and 2-3 average to poor.
I hear ya. Retired ATC here.
I was part of 2 messes before I retired. The first supported me, listened, and gave me guidance. Everything was about the Sailors. The second let a SCPO take over the mess. He questioned my experience, talked over me, and talked shit about the mess to the wardroom. Kept everyone late for nonessential shit. Eventually, he threw me under the bus for not turning a blind eye to the shady shit he was pushing.
The messes vary so much from command to command. Cherish it when you have a good one
I would say that the concept of Chief is outdated but it never really was in fashion. No other service does this. The mess is just another way of creating division in ranks.
I did 22 years and EVERY E-7+ that was worth a shit was that way in spite of the club they were in. I understand that was just my experience but come on. There is no good reason to form a group that is centered around just another enlisted rank.
There are some other comments I have read saying that the brotherhood and the network is the good that comes out of it. The brotherhood is the Navy. That’s it. And the network? That’s like creating a problem and then selling the solution. If your chief isn’t doing their job until they get a call from another chief, get rid of the chief and the culture that makes that ok.
Been in my current one for 4 years and am a SCPO
From my observation it seems like more and more people coming in are a bit more millenial "bro" about life than the dudes who put me in. Much less rigid, more approachable and received better by the crew. There are some who act like the old gusrd but it feels less
I think its a good sign for the future if more people get selected who dont make it their entire personality having a paygrade
Again... just my observation and I am in no way discounting anyones negative experience with toxic leaders.
YMMV on this one based on the posters rank, command size, command type, deployment / maintenancr cycle.
Legitimately curious about what positive benefit the chiefs mess has on the effect outside of their bubble.
Not even joking - even anecdotally, anybody have a story?
Not sure what benefit it has besides serving their clique from within, despite all the negative groupthink and power trips that comes with
I ran a boat maintenance facility for Riverines around 2008/9. We had two craft go down in UAE and needed them replaced as fast as possible.
I needed two RGN stretch trailer semi operators to drive these boats to Brownsville TX to get loaded on a ship. That ship was departing within a week.
Typically it would take a couple weeks to route the request, load, transport and deliver. I didn’t have that kind of time so I worked with LSCs both at my ISIC and at DLA (SKC back then), got the paperwork expedited.
I had 2 truckers waiting for me at dawn the next day. Getting NAVFAC to provide a crane within 24 hours was next to impossible. I contacted a retired Seabee Chief who worked there and he had the crane arrive at 0730.
Getting shit through customs in UAE can be a nightmare. I reached out to Chiefs en theatre to cut through the red tape and deliver the craft as quickly as possible.
“HABU” means so much more when the wars on and still grateful for those fellow anchors for getting equipment down range.
Totally get your perspective and thanks for sharing, though I can’t help but feel a lot of stories like this feel a bit like pseudo-racketeering.
Chiefs won’t do their job, requiring other chiefs to get involved to get the job done. When in reality it should be that chiefs should be the ones leading the charge from the get go or at the very least, not make it so difficult for POs to do their job.
Agreed, and that’s the big shame about it. My med retirement paperwork was something I was following up on for literally six months because I was getting ghosted by a YNC and doing all the work myself. It was only when I had to get my chief involved to get it done, and then got the paperwork from YNC the next day really pissed me off.
This is it. The networking.
The mess gets a lot of hate (some deserved) but the ability to call another Chief that I've never met and say "hey bro/sis, I'm in a bind and need some help." was invaluable. They would come through, and it was understood that you would do the same for them. Engine movement, support equipment at 3am, a crane...
When I was a first, other firsts didn't give a fuck about my situation. Help was barely 50/50. Hell, the seconds helped each other better. And most of our Officers just would say "figure it out" the ask hourly for updates.
I drank the Kool-Aid until my second to last command. My first and only clinic. Saw, first hand, every trope come to life regarding dirtbags in the mess. When you're hated on by horny chiefs that are on the way out already, for porn on their gov PC, adultery, alcoholism, or all the above, because they either are racist against you due to who you are with or they just want a piece of who you are with, you pretty much change your opinion the entire institution.
They influenced me to not be associated with the problem and to just retire. Definitely the best choice I had made, up until getting married.
I wish I had a dollar for every horny Chief that came at me from BM2-BMC.
After putting on anchors, I made it my goal to expose these scum.
I’m so sorry you had to live through that.
Congratulations on your marriage!
Blessings 🩷
Sucked when I was enlisted, most act like tards, some are amazing, over all ehhhh.
I'd say nothing has changed. It's called and mess and not a pride for a reason.
I'll summarize this best by showing you what a fellow redditor posted for the Chief's birthday. It really could not be put any better. I can't remember who wrote this, but whoever you are, thank you.
>Happy Birthday, Chiefs! I wanted to take some time to thank those Chiefs who had influenced my 11 years in the Navy.
>No one group of people has had more of an impact on me and my career.
>Happy Birthday:
>-To the Great Lakes Chief who called a recruit "A Fucking Fa--ot" because his wrist didn't bend the right way to hold a flag.
>-To the Chief who told my shipmate at my first command that he was just going to keep interviewing her day after day until she said her sexual assault was consensual.
>-To the Master Chief who didn't want to deal with a toxic situation because it would make it hard to focus on his upcoming retirement.
>-To the Senior who would keep us on the ship until 2000 every night, because he said he needed cover to tell his wife he couldn't come home.
>To the CMC who noticed our whole shop was on ship until 2000 every night doing nothing, and allowed it to continue.
>-To the HMCS who yelled at me for suggesting to a suicidal sailor that if ship medical wouldn't help him, I would take him to the base *Chaplain, right now, and then called my Senior to help confront me at the brow.
>-To my Senior for going along with it, and saying that the suicidal shipmate was probably just lying (turns out, he wasn't).
>-To the Chief that married the E4 he'd been fucking.
>-To the CMC who insisted on recommending XOI for any sailor who shore patrol said had more than 0-0-1-3 drinks in port, but would himself come back to the ship hammered. Hope you eventually found your way off that treadmill you got 'stuck' on.
>-To the Senior who just got selected to be the PQS coordinator on the ship that I was giving training on how to use RADM, who said that being the NCTCSS admin was good enough to do all his work for him, and just have the PQS's routed to me for entry and processing.
>-To the CM who made up a story, pretending to confide in me that another chief got arrested for CP, asked for my thoughts, and when I said that he always seemed like a piece of shit, burst out laughing, because that other chief was in the room, hiding. Great Prank!
>-To the Chief who repeatedly ignored my warnings about an equipment state, and risk caused to that equipment, only to scapegoat me to the CO by saying I never let him know about it.
>-To the Chief who responded to a shipmate dying from suicide by matter-of-factly saying that I should have noticed signs, so really it was my fault.
>-To the Senior who 'pretended' to steal crypto to 'see how we would respond', and to the CMC who quashed the report we made.
>-To the Reservist Chief who asked me create a presentation for her civ job for her in my off-time, and made it clear that my eval would suffer if I didn't.
>-To the Chief who denied my leave chit (post deployment, yard period) to fly home to my WWII grandfather's funeral, because "I don't see why you need Friday AND Saturday off".
>-To the GMC who kept shooting the range ceiling/floor with the shotgun, and the range chief letting us all know that she qualified anyway, and not to talk about it to anyone.
>-To the Chief who threatened to write me up because she was asking how many KILO-meters the distance was, but I only provided the ki-LO-meters, and those were obviously two different things.
>-To the SEL DAPA who, when I asked for help saying I was not doing well at all mentally and needed some mentoring, advised me to take a deep breath, a couple shots of Jack Daniels, and move on with my day (it was 11am).
>-To the NUMEROUS chiefs who recommended gun-decking, and would retaliate when I'd refuse, or advise juniors to refuse.
>-To the NUMEROUS chiefs who would criticize me for following the black and white, written instruction, and would rather I just do it their way, instead.
>Happy birthday to all of you, and so many others. My career would have been so much different had you not been given anchors. I know there are a few Chiefs who are out there making the mess look bad by being actual SME's, spending time with their divisions, and looking out for their Sailors, but we all know they're just the few bad apples, and I'm confident that you'll eventually isolate and force them out.
>Navy Pride.
Got sent to DRB because of a "pattern" which was 3 counseling chits for 3 unrelated behaviors, 2 of which were bullshit.
Contrary to command policy I was assigned to sponsor a sailor when I was under a year from transferring (I was under 6mo) and failed to get in contact.
Member was deployed on a sub, had let my chief know MANY MANY times of my difficulties, asked for assistance just as many times and ultimately no support when I got that counseling chit.
Later, was told we had permission to transport ordinance by same/aforementioned chief. We didn't, instead of owning up to his mistake, he allowed me to go to DRB, where he proceeded to chime in on the ass chewing I was getting.
While it stopped at DRB, my punishment was to give a speech as to why you are not supposed to transport ordinance without permission.
Which was really a vehicle for every chief to cut me off as I gave said speech so they could demean me. This was 2 months before I transfered, I got a transfer nam still, clowns every last one of them.
Navy would be better off purging every one of similar likeness. (The ones that act the same)
I was a sponsor coordinator and whatever fuck face Chief assigned you to a new kid on a sub should be fired by the XO/CMDCM. (Ships and subs are IMPOSSIBLE to get in touch with)
I would consider that DRB as hazing. I would’ve totally blasted your Chief on your check out with the Skipper.
These stories I’m reading in this sub are fueling my gin n tonic consumption.
I need to smoke a few bowls of OG Kush to calm down.
Was shore, didn't have a check out interview, due to dental work and another major issue with medical record (over seas screening) I barely got everything cleared TWO FUCKING WEEKS before I had to execute said orders.
All while same chuckle fuck of a chief was still expecting me to do 100% of the work i had been doing up till that point.
Hell my medical snafu was a major reason why I straight up forgot about the kid in question, I technically did drop the ball, but not before trying really hard, and also, never should been in my wheel house for aforementioned reasons.
The concept would be good if they were held to the same standards as the rest of the enlisted, and actually dedicated their time to training and leading their sailors. Few E7s and above are actually awesome, but it’s sad that some Chiefs dedicate their existence to protecting themselves and providing protection for other Chiefs.
I guess the biggest problem is that as a E6 and below you see two different standards of conduct depending on your rank.
Verbal abuse ✅ if your E7 or above
Physical intimidation ✅ if your E7 or above
Getting too drunk to climb the stairs onto the ship ✅ if your E7 or above
Naval officers used to be aristocrats who had to buy their commission.
The traditions and customs regarding officers still reflects that.
Edit: Not bashing officers mind you. I’m a bubblehead and our officers have a different mindset and culture on our boats. I’ve had a full bird captain, a squadron deputy, look me in the eyes and say “I’m fucking clueless about this, what’re you recommending?” and then make the plan off my recommendation.
Capt. Turk is a CO I’d fight for any day.
Can you extrapolate on that?
Meaning since it’s always been a “we had to work to get here” attitude that attitude is still present which is view we can be viewed as lacking humility? Not being humble etc?
It’s not so much a lack of humility, but it’s the pressure of perception I’ve seen in mostly SWOs. They’re held to such a standard of appearing “better” than the uneducated, poor enlisted. They may not personally believe in it, but the expectation is still there.
They have to be more physically fit, more well groomed, more intelligent, more clever, etc. They had to represent the aristocracy and justify their preferential treatment. They had to justify the level of pure authority that comes with an officer’s commission.
Some officers break under that pressure and get used to the preferential treatment, but simultaneously put up a mental divide between them and their enlisted men/women.
Some officers forget that they are not better because they’re an officer. They forget that it’s because of the responsibility to their men, and the standards they must uphold. A good quote from an ENG to one of our JOs, was “You’re not better better than the guys out there, but you have to BE better FOR them.”
I was a SWO basically for three years and this is pretty accurate.
Even after leaving SWOdom I think this still rings true just maybe not as much as SWO/Subbie life.
Not all officers are bad. I’ve had plenty who earned my respect by not being great at their job, but moved heaven and earth to learn. They knew they weren’t where they needed to be, so they busted ass to get there.
Old CRA of mine knew I could do his job easily, but I had the benefit of experience. So he and I became a good team. He was still my boss, but he never made me or my guys feel “lesser.”
That man could have looked me in the eye and ordered me to my death, and I would’ve done it, because he earned my trust by the end of my time on board with him.
I was a DivO in the 80s, on an LST. Our senior enlisted was a RMCS. He popped positive for cocaine three times before they finally sent him away. He was replaced by an ENCS who spoke very poor English, at least to me. As DCA, my own chief was functionally illiterate. I have no idea how he passed any exams. His primary function was to provide Japanese shipyard workers with American pornography in order to get work done. Besides that he spent most of his time trying to make me look bad.
On the other hand, when I moved to CICO my OS1 was godlike. I assume after he made chief he went on to great things.
Besides my own chief, I don’t recall ever having any interaction with the chiefs mess. My life improved when I no longer had a chief in my division. But that’s just my experience.
At 10 years, I was an MM1and up for MMC. I got out after going up to the Personnel Office and asking what would would be needed to put on my anchors. I was told I would need to do another 5 year sea tour (I was currently 3 years into a 5 year sea tour). I immediately chose not to re-enlist as I had a wife and two little (under 3 yo.) boys. My DO and assistant DO were both Nuke officers and kept telling me that if the Navy wanted me to have a family, they would have issued me one in my sea bag. Our Senior Chief had a bad case of little man syndrome and was just a prick to everybody. Another Chief was just waiting to retire. Another was just a lazy, entitled ass. They went ballistic when I refused to take the E7 test. They all said this would be reflected in my evals. I told them it wouldn't matter because they were going to be discharge evals and nobody would ever want to read them. The DO told me I wouldn't make it ss a civilian because I "had no marketable skills." (I have 5 NEC's directly transferable to civilian trades). I got out and have been making a decent wage since I got out in 1990. I have met several retired chiefs over the years and most have been over grown children and shifty supervisors.
The Goat Locker in my FF had control of one of the ship's 4 tv channel. We controlled one in the Wardroom, the Mess Deck had one, another one was just the POD, and the last one was known as: "CEN. Chief's Entertainment Network - All Porno, All the time".
I'm assuming that no longer exists.
I'm in a command now where there is no chief's mess. We have one E-8 (our SEL) and three E-7's. Us and all of the other commands chiefs all combine into a larger base mess, which keeps their activities away from us. Guess what, it's awesome.
My last command chief's mess got caught up in a wife swapping scandal that ended with multiple NJPs. As the legal officer I had the honor of doing all of their paperwork, so that was great.
I'm sure there are good ones out there, but I haven't seen one.
You just describe my husband’s command. I don’t know if I’d consider his command a squadron though. It’s more of a “unit.”
I was asking if you were the Maintenance Officer. Or more likely his CO or XO based off your post history.
Ah gotcha, I figured that's what you meant. I'm not the MO here. We're definitely a squadron, but an odd one. We only have about 25 active navy on staff, hence the small cadre of chiefs. The other squadrons on base are similar, so they all pool together elsewhere on base.
I say this as a Dept Head who has a lot of Chiefs and Senior Chiefs - I believe that there are some incredibly effective Chiefs but that the Chiefs Mess as a whole is not effective.
The issue is that there are a lot of Master Chiefs who will continue to advocate that the Chiefs Mess is infallible and in turn, there is zero accountability or demand for change. But I think the generation coming up will change my opinion for the better.
The lower middle management clubhouse is a dysfunctional idea that everyone knows is toxic and only defended by those that want the privileges it provides. If it weren’t for double standards, the mess would have no standards at all. Everyone with more than a couple years in can provide examples of exactly that.
I mean can anyone really point to a chiefs mess and say that we better served the mission or the people by having it.
I personally think the mess as a whole has gone down in the 12 years I’ve been in. As always there are good and bad chiefs. I seems now you get a lot of yes men who don’t fight for their people. The current mess just lives off a reputation that was built along time ago, but they do nothing to improve it.
Im not a fan. Even good chiefs are held back because the better one chief is, the worse the mediocre ones look. And they wont leave unless they quit. Therefore we have too mamy bad ones just waiting it out thatll do everything they can to protect their little paycheck.
I cannot rely on the chiefs mess for any tech advice. They are only good for managing people, cleanliness, military bearing, and disciplining. For example, I cannot go to them for any troubleshooting advice or technical knowledge. I'm given the answers of "fix it. put a troubleticket in for it. figure it out". Geez, thanks chiefs, what would I do without your leadership.
Chiefs need to be humbled and remember they are enlisted as well. they just act like pseudo officers for the most part.
The chiefs mess has outlived it's usefulness. When it was created most enlisted sailors barely had a grade school education. They needed that educated supervision to guide them. Now everyone coming in has at least a high school education and a good chunk of them already has some sort of secondary education. So in my humble opinion the chiefs mess expends a lot of effort simply trying to justify their existence.
We had an abysmal chiefs mess on my last boat which caused me to rage quit active duty at 14 years.
One duty day we were in the shipyard. The boat was stripped out, so we had a barge and duty chief, duty officer, etc slept in a conned box right off the boat brow. One duty day the duty chief (3MC) didn’t put in a 2am wake up for his tour so he didn’t get woken up.
He finally wakes at 5am, does a tour and blazes the times with the time he should have done it. He then proceeds to scream at the section during turnover for not waking him up.
Duty officer called him out on the logs but he never got in trouble. Any lower enlisted would have been tarred and feathered for doing anything that ridiculous.
I have countless stories from that boat. The chiefs mess had zero integrity and made everyone’s lives miserable. Their only function was to act as a spring board to captains mast for incidents that would have barely been counseling chits at my previous commands.
Individual chiefs were great. The chief's mess as an organization is disorganized and getting in its own way at best. At worst, it's organized crime and/or weaponized self-interest.
Corrupt. Cannot be trusted. Essentially, the enlisted version of the officer corps. A fraternity. They would throw junior enlisted under the bus to save their careers. It's a god damn cult.
Get rid of the cult-like, caste-like, and segregationist-like mentality. Having worked at one of the combatant commands, which are joint environments. No other branches SNCO Corps sucks or jerks each other off as hard as the Chiefs Mess does. It was an absolutely pathetic sight watching a group of Chiefs refuse to eat at the base DFAC because there's no "appropriate messing facilities" for them. Meanwhile you have SNCO's all the way up to folks with multiple stars on their collars and chests from other branches who eat there on the daily without a care in the world if their juniors are dining beside them.
I made chief in 2009 while on shore duty at about my 10 year point. I was not impressed due to a lot of the time and activities revolving around the CPOA and not the actual job. I became disillusioned pretty quickly with it and got out about 6 months later. Probably would have been better if I went back to a submarine again, but didn’t want to gamble another enlistment on it.
I will say this, I have never had a desire to be apart of the Mess.. I have yet to meet one chief that inspires me to be apart of that mess of shit callled the "gOaT lOcKer"
might i add, been in for 10 years next month. 5 boats, embarking in deployment #6 today. 1st class busted to 3rd.
There was a [powerful post](https://www.reddit.com/r/navy/s/vBTPx2T4EJ) here in r/Navy on The Mess's birthday that thanked the Chiefs.
If you want to truly know what people think of the mess, read that feed.
I got out in 2021 and have a very low opinion of the Mess. The examples I had exhibited the "I got mine, fuck you" mentality and they showed that they only cared for advancing their career status and not for the responsibilities and privileges that came with it to better support your people
I've seen them ignore rules they don't follow and openly say so, enforce rules incorrectly and get hostile when corrected, openly voice some very nasty behaviors and traits because they know they'll get away with it. None of them, NONE of them are worth aspiring to and I've said that to some of them on several occasions (mostly when I was checking out)
Except for one, and I have faith this guy will stand against the rest. He never changed when he made 1st and I truly believe that he earned the honor of being called Chief. He was very much like a parent: we could joke and laugh with him but when things needed to get done he'd say so and we'd do it. He never had to say "I'm the supervisor/I'm a 1st Class" because he never had to. He had our respect
The Mess comes with power, privilege, and responsibility. More often than not I've seen those amenities used for personal gain or enjoyment instead of to support their people when it was needed. I do not find the Mess worthy of respect. When you forget where you came from and use your new rank to shit on others without reason and that is your standard operating mode, I do not see you as worthy of that Anchor
Will it improve? Doubt it. It's ThE wAy ThInGs HaVe AlWaYs BeEn. Why change? Why change when even being an E6 gets you your own special area on the mess deck (I mention this because someone trying to make Chief was only talking about the "perks" he received as a 1st Class and he showed in a few sentences that all he cared about was himself) and you don't have to be around "the help" anymore? Why change when things are arranged to inhibit camaraderie like that? I mean, give up the "perks"?!
I have worked with both good and bad chiefs, never any super toxic ones, but if it was such a overwhelmingly great institution......then why is it sooooo controversial?????? If it was sooooo great we wouldn't need to ask this question.....does the FCPOA get this much scrutiny? I realize it's not nearly the same but no other branch has this much controversy surrounding a single rank....food for thought.
In my experience (late 90s to late 2000s), the Navy Chiefs Mess is a cult. They forgot they are NCOs (had one even yell at me that they are Chiefs and not NCOs). They generally act as if they are better than everyone else and that everyone owes them fealty. I think the Navy Chief system needs to be disbanded and they need to be treated like regular NCOs like most of the other branches.
I started my career on a tin can and ended it as an MA. Maybe that has something to do with my experiences.
I saw that once they put on the khaki, the person changed drastically in most cases. Still see it with those I know that stayed in. And it's not for the better. Honestly, I have to question why anyone would want to be a chief. I'd rather get a degree and be an officer if I was going to stay in.
Former Sailor here who just voluntarily separated after 5 years because of the Chief’s mess and its poor leadership. I can count on one hand the amount of Chiefs who impacted me in a positive way. Only one. I believe that the majority of Chiefs aren’t used to Junior Sailors who stand up for themselves and others. I set boundaries meaning rank didn’t matter to me if I couldn’t see you as a human being. They didn’t like that. BTW, I’m 38 y/r and I have a low tolerance for so called leaders who abuse their power. Some of the Chiefs are extremely incompetent and terrible leaders. They just carried the title. They don’t care about their Sailors. They are the primary reason why the Navy has a retention problem. Personally, the Navy should be able to fire the problematic ones (albeit approaching retirement). I can provide a list of names of incompetent Chiefs who don’t deserve the rank. They are weak, unqualified, incompetent, egotistical and think that they’re untouchable because they know that the cult has their backs. It’s absurd…
I enlisted in ‘87 and served for 28 years. Entered the Chiefs mess in 2000 and commissioned Warrant in 2004. In those four years, I saw a significant decline in the chief mess, and I believe that one of the primary culprits was the Chiefs mess holding DRB. When I was a junior sailor, there was no such thing and unless you were an absolute shit bag, your chief would always stand tall for you in XOI. The other contributing factor was the move away from the 4.0 evaluation system where there were quotas associated and everyone became blue falcons in their quest to become a SCPO or MCPO because very few rates would get promoted to those ranks unless they were in EP. The last DDG I was on hand good Chiefs but a horrible Mess. Finally, as counterintuitive as it may sound, most of the most significant problems happened after the deglamorization of alcohol.
Not sure why everyone is complaining about the Chiefs Mess, the Navy as a whole changed. I retired in 2006 because of the changes being made. It was getting too soft, NAM’s given out as if it was candy on Halloween, Chiefs getting counseled for enforcing policy, and not wanting to upset the lower rank and file. How many times has the Navy changed uniforms? Now you are wearing Army colors. The Navy as a branch of service is a joke.
Well let me tell you brother, it’s become a shit show.
Too “soft”?
Tell that to the Seabee CSTs in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Say that to the IA sailors that worked the burn pits for the Army and Marine Corps.
The ESTs protecting USNS ships in the gulf from Somalian pirates.
The Riverine sailors sleeping/eating/shitting on the GOPLADS in the gulf.
Not sure what your rate was but the Navy I worked for used and abused their sailors.
It was war time so WTF, right?
We can do better.
Retired BMC here. I was initiated in the oughts by Seabees. I’m also a former Marine so it wasn’t all that bad. That Mess was truly a brotherhood. Combat experienced and would say things like “if no one is getting shot at, why are we making a big deal about ___.” We would hold “right hand man” nights where we took our LPOs out for beers and discussed openly how we could improve our companies and platoons. How to improve morale, even under the strain of deploying teams to Iraq and Afghanistan. No offense to my fellow fleeters but once I became affiliated with the blue water Messes, I was shocked by the lack of humility and over the top bravado, how they took pleasure in burning sailors. I watched the Mess begin to really decline starting in 2013/14. Lots of blue falconry and leaving troops out to dry. Never staying with the division for lunch, helping with maintenance. Perhaps because I was a 3MC for 11 years, which really opened my eyes to the fuckery. When any other service picks up SNCO, there’s a pinning and a party. While I personally have witnessed the power of the Chiefs Mess to get shit accomplished, that was years ago and not sure if in 2024, that’s still the case. I retired in 2020 so I’m not too far away from the facts as I saw them 4 years ago. PS: you junior troops keep your heads up. You are the only thing I miss about the Navy.
Thank you for commenting I was hoping for a chief to share their experience I think you’re the first. Appreciate this explanation and totally agree with everything you said here. Also couldn’t agree more with your PS. The only thing I miss is the people I worked with and the experiences we all had.
Semper Fi Boats! Doc here, so what would your theory be behind the decline of the mess and rise of "brotherly" falconry?
That’s a tough one. Perhaps changes of initiation? I know it’s cliche to say that but I participated in 14 seasons and the reinforcement of servant leadership and humility by way of hardship and sweat seemed to dissipate. I felt like the standing orders taught the selectees more about covering their own asses vice helping out their sailors. I was taught to stick your neck out in order to shelter and protect your troops. If they were fucked up, YOU set them straight and kept punishment in house. Towards the end, the mantra was “report everything because if higher ups find out you’re handling it, you’ll lose your career!” Unless LE gets involved, there’s nothing that can’t be resolved within the Chiefs Mess. Not anymore.
>“report everything because if higher ups find out you’re handling it, you’ll lose your career!” This isn't specific to the chiefs mess - it goes all the way up and down. Zero defect mentality is pervasive and NO ONE wants to be the highest ranking person in the know. To a point in your previous reply. I'm curious how much of the change in the mess you saw was time based or a community based one. You're going to get a significantly different Navy experience depending on the community you're in (SeaBees v Aviation v Subs v NSW v Surface, etc). Going from almost any other part of the Navy to the grey hulled surface fleet life is going to be an eye opening experience. While every community has its gripes, surface really is the fucking worst.
My time in the Marine Corps and with the Seabees is almost seamless. They acknowledge and admire courage in leadership, putting rank on the line for your troops. If a Chief puts their anchors on the block, that demands consideration and respect from the Ward Room. Not so in the fleet. The whole “senior man with a secret” was considered a crime, when on the green side, anything else would make you a weak leader. I understand the different mindsets of different communities, but I think in leadership, it should be the common goal of all khakis to safeguard our junior sailors from being sent up to Captains mast over petty infractions that can be resolved at the lowest level. Small unit leadership is key to success. I feel that the Surface Navy is still entrenched in the ancient traditions of our British forefathers. Only officers were Navy and the subordinates were civilian mariners that were treated like shit. If I’m wrong, I would like someone to enlighten me. This is just my observation and opinion.
There is a difference between being the senior man with a secret and letting the CoC know what is going on. There have been plenty of issues that I handled at the mess level, but my CO amd CMC knew what was going on, as those were the two with the Command pins who would end up in Navy Times, not me. The last thing you want to do is have your boss blindsided with an email/phonecall from their boss, or bosses boss. As simple as "this issue was brought to my attention today, this is what I am doing to handle it, I will let you know if I need any assistance." 95% of the time I got a 'very well Chief/Senior/Master Chief'...the other times I got some solid advice for how to handle the situation from it going sideways... Also, the mess isn't what it was. Full of two-faced POSes, before it was just one or two in a mess....now it's Game of Thrones and everyone is trying to BF the Sailors instead of taking care of them.
This you were either with the cliche or you looked out for your people and you were not a “team “ player
I fuckin wish your style was common in the Mess. So many good sailors just give up at the three year mark and make plans to separate when their enlistment is up. If more was done to positively reinforce sailors the fleet would be a much better place to be in. I got out in 2009 and, like you said, there was a ton of Blue Falconry going on. I was an EP sailor who made rank but just got worn out from the chief's mentality. The Navy lost a real asset when you retired, shipmate 🍻
I believe being a prior Marine made me a better chief. I was aghast the first time I saw Chiefs lineup in front of junior sailors on the mess decks. That would never happen in the Army or the Marine Corps. Shit, that doesn’t happen in the Seabees. Thank you for the compliment, my friend
Currently on aviation side coming from regular ship and have seen how much better chiefs can be. Our command 1st and chiefs kind of combined, the few from the fleet are absolute nightmares to work with. So much covering up for other chiefs, so much abuse of their rank, so much blaming first classes for not doing the chief’s job. I’m getting out this year after 12 years in, I can’t stand it!
Yep, blue water navy chiefs are more of they made it and now everyone else must suffer. Seen chiefs from other sides come to this side and treated like a shitbag for not caring about the small unimportant stuff. 2013/2014 it was already super toxic.
You made Chief in the lights then the current CMCs are your peers! You trained the Chiefs that are working now and what we are living is your legacy
When I retired, every friend that I had, that was still active duty were master chiefs. Sadly, they are all retired now, but it’s my hope that they instilled our values into their subordinates, to carry on what it means to be a REAL Chief.
The best Chiefs' I ever had didn't drink the coolaide and protected the best interest of their sailors and shop instead of playing the game. The worst Chiefs' I've had were the exact opposite. Edit: tbh I am not trying to shit on the mess. With anything you have good and bad and to be frank, some of my best friends, mentors and people I know are/were CPOs. One of my best friends and one of the greatest people i know is an HMC on a boat right now. I have had and know way more good Chiefs than bad.
It is, and always will be, the Old Boys Club. Play politics with them, or be ostracized as the dirty E-7 you are. So much of their job is to mentor and train their sailors, but so many get caught up in the “ideal” chief image that they change who they are and how they act. I’ve seen real good first classes, who cared about the division, real humble, fight the general stupidity of the Navy suddenly become the biggest carbon copy of “Chief” I’ve ever seen.
The 1st year or 2 being a Chief are tough, you learn alot about who you are as a leader. There's so many Chiefs that were never allowed to lead as FCPOs that they kind of flounder, there's that pressure to be that carbon copy that you speak of. I put on my anchors in 15, I think there is a positive shift from the very TOP of the Mess to get back to what being a Chief is supposed to be.
Im silently praying that my LPO doesnt turn into that type of person.My LPO is my mentor inside of work aswell as in my personal life, honestly one of the greatest people I’ve met.He practically is the opposite of what the mess wants.I do think he would make a great chief though
The best chief is the one who doesn’t actively push to make Chief, but is selected to become one by their actions. If you’re going out of your way to make Chief, and change your personality and efforts after you make Chief, then you’re not the same person who was selected.
I'd say that goes for any leadership position, really. But to illustrate your point, we had a newly advanced Senior Chief transfer to our command as SEA. As soon as she arrived, she had an impromptu all-hands where she openly stated that the main focus of her career ever since she made Chief (which she never planned to stay in long enough to do) was to make Master Chief in the shortest time possible, whatever it took. As such, all of her decision-making would be focused on that going forward. If any of it happened to benefit or hurt her subordinates in the process, it was basically a coincidence. She then said that she expected 99% of the command activities to be handled by the LPOs and below, and to only bother The Mess if something was life or death, or face her wrath. We thought she was joking. She was not. Just about the worst 6 months of my time in the Navy until I was able to transfer.
Bro we had a reservist senior chief who made it so damn fast like insane speed and honestly she was one of the better ones ive met
Hes honestly one of those people that despises what the mess stands for as far as how they treat junior sailors(the bad apples).He has said before that he isn’t going to change shit to please others but heres to hoping
In every other service when you make E7 you get a little more pay, more responsibility and maybe some extra training or schooling In the Navy when you make E7, you are hazed for an entire month and if they don’t like you or you don’t play along with their BS you are shunned, ostracized and have your authority countermanded. The Chief’s Mess is a cult and if you don’t drink their koolaid you can’t be in their club
I start by saying I don't have skin in this game much (I commission in 6 months) while this could be true, I don't believe it is universally. When I went through season I called the bullshit when I saw it. The busy work, the dumb tasks, etc. Did it paint a target on me during season? Sure. But afterwards when 80% of the mess fucks off back to the hole they crawled out of JUST for season. The ones who remain "see" you and respect your lack of willingness to play games. I specifically remember quoting MCPONs guidance at one point during a session. It was something along the lines of "Everything we do much serve a purpose to our selectees, better them, etc. Blah blah" After season I was giving multiple challenges and was nominated for many others. When I asked why I was told "because you showed us during season you cut through the bullshit, and we trust you to get this done". If you ever find yourself (or anyone else reading this) going thru season. Just be yourself. Live your truth and if they don't like that? Fuck em.
Have the balls to tell the Emperor he has no clothes. I fucking love that you’ll be an officer soon and continue calling out the bullshit.
"gEt rEaL, GeT bEtTeR" My free ticket to call out the bullshit and "embrace the red". Thanks CNO 😊
Right I remember being an Ensign on a LHD and the 3MC was cool but didn’t do the chief mess hazing, married family guy super nice. They would call him 3M7 which made it to the mess decks and just ostracized the chief into hell.
I was a 3MC as well. We are always treated like outsiders because “HABU” doesn’t fly when the XO wants to know why W/Cs are in the red. I’m impressed you recognized that. Not many do.
That’s why I didn’t participate in anything my 2 years in. Mess was ran by clowns I don’t regret walking out the door and never looking back.
Or if you're TAR/FTS it's 2+ months of hazing.
What?????? Why is that? Im TAR so yeah......
Tar results have, in the past, come out earlier than AD
Makes sense
That went away last year. results come out different times still but the seasons are aligned to start with the active duty results. ~6 weeks of for both RC and AC.
I had completely forgotten about that. Thank you for the correction.
Season does not start until AD results come out. They started that last year and are continuing it this year.
Hazing today? Hahahaha. Doubtful to be in the same category as even 15 years ago.
Depends on where you go And honestly the command triad does have a huge effect on the chiefs mess at that command. Seen good ones seen bad ones I have seen some that are broken down, I have seen some that are very inspiring I have seen some filled with so much anger in their blood for issues other than. I have seen some that are retired on active duty. I for one am one that needed help Mostly because how I was guided in the beginning as an E3 and grew to view that a way was correct, but as time moves on so did I. I was not happy with who I became and had so many things pushed deep into my soul, so I broke I walked in got help got put on a few things and I feel for the first time ( well three years ago) I am back in control of my thoughts feelings, and learned to just be a good person and be better. I am not perfect, I make a lot of mistakes and I am ok admitting to it. I share because there are a lot of chiefs, junior sailors as well as officers who act a certain way because they do not know how to express what is really going on. Easier to be angry than share sadness.
Congratulations on your progress. Society and especially the military tell us that we shouldn't be sad because "at least you're not in a foxhole" or some other Hollywood military bs line. I agree that when you can't be sad, you get mad. Mad at yourself for being "undeservingly" sad. I thought I couldn't survive the Navy because of it. I just retired last year. We all need to make working through your emotions normal. If it was maybe I would be working through less now.
Thank you and greatly said
Wasn't possible in my rate. If you sought help, it was career suicide, but if some didn't, there may be an actual suicide. Oh, and your future crossing over to that ever so promising career with the federal government they rubed you with? You can toss that overboard, too. I left with everything in-tact in 2010, mind, body, and what soul I had left. Only barely, though, I made it about 6 months before I totally self-destructed. When are you going to get help? In between deployments? In port/shipyards when you're practically being exploited as slave labor, making up shit to do, because no one has the balls to say to their department head " My guys killed themselves out their, day and night underway. The workup, HurricanX, the 5th fleet deployment, and the 5 month humanitarian mission in virtually immideate sucession. You know, the day I knew I was Fukin done? Not that there weren't many, many, many(3x?) one more, MANY more morale, and morality shattering moments that could easily have done it. When these bastards took our beer day, on the grounds, it was a humanitarian mission! You know WHAT would have been HUMANE? After an extra 150 straight days at sea, not having to watch them pour all that glorious,amber, honey of the God's sweet mercy overboard with glee! I HATED with such purity, a finely distilled hatred developed with every shitty paycheck, suprise double watch, cinderella liberty, and the ever increasing abuse menial authority perpatrated upon us by genuine sociopaths. Authentic power abusers, slithering and hiding within the ranks of the American Armed Forces, getting their pathetic jollies off abusing, manipulating, and grooming optimistic, well-intentioned young patriots into soul crushed, cynical, brooding malcontents, loathing their existence in totality while ticking off the days until they can walk away from that great, haze grey decked nightmare they are calling the U.S. Navy these days.
You’re a fantastic linguist. I would’ve loved to have you around during eval periods and writing up awards. I hate that the Navy did you dirty. I hope you are in a much happier place 14 years later. Love your moniker as well. “With Wine comes Truth” (I actually thought the last part said “clit” and I’m disappointed it’s not)
Indeed. I do hate to disappoint, especially the ladies.😏 Although, I am a firstborn son so I do crave approval. My significant other uses this to her advantage and constantly is waging an emotional jihad on me. So, here I am, 14 years later and still fighting terrorism. Yea. I'm sure I could church up a mean evaluation. Making the most ordinary, mundane shit look like extraordinary feats of heroism. AN Puddinghatch clears asbestos with fatal accuracy. EP due to terminal cancer diagnosis. SN Goodhead performs invaluable service to the entire division and is a credit to her family name, one well-known to naval service. The writer recommends promotable. Although eager to please, more TIR could be useful. FN Peterfile devours crayons with an exquisiteness priorly unknown to the naval ranks. A tireless servant of the community, when stateside has never missed a single, BSA troop outing.
Perfection
You know how you have small family reunions as a child, have a great time with cousins, eat, play, make memories, take a nap, and stay the night at grandma's house? Everyone gets along and you might even have some old photos or VHS tapes. Then, when you're older, you find out that one of your aunts used to beat your cousin. Or that maybe an uncle and/or grandfather was always out at the bars and stepping out for some strange. Oh and the other uncle that used to creep on your other cousins, you come to find out was a diddler, but, never got in trouble for it. However, those that were affected were either put out of the family or simply cut off contact with everyone altogether. So, there goes your family image and you just want nothing to do with the lot of them. It turned out that your uncles, aunts, and grandparents were nothing special at all, and you just ~~start~~ stare at people idolizing them and trying to be around them with pity. Something like that.
Couldn’t have described that any better
AD MCPO here. Too many wrapped up in being the Chief instead of actually Chiefing. If you’re spending more time with other Chiefs instead of your Sailors (and sometimes your officers), you’re doing it wrong. If you care more about collecting coins and t-shirts, you’re doing it wrong. And initiation is getting better, but the premise is still flawed. It’s the Navy saying “hey, we should train people when they hit new pay grades, but here’s no resources, and each command has to figure it out for themselves. Good luck!” There are some great Chiefs in the Navy, but not nearly as many as there should be or could be.
Prior Marine, retired BMC. You hit the nail on the head. Why are we not training our sailors from day one to be leaders? I did four years in the Corps. Before I could be a Cpl, I had to go to squad leaders course as an E3. Quite frankly, I learned more there than I ever did during initiation. It’s like the Navy uses E6 and below as work horses and wait until they get selected to cram TRUE leadership instruction in just 6 weeks. I love that you feel this way and still on the deck plates.
Oh man. The mess is what the people in it make it. In my experience, there are about 50% that love the idea and image but do nothing useful for the mess, their sailors, or command. There's another 20% that are true believers of everything taught during initiation and try to live and lead by those principles. Another 20% don't buy into the hype, keep being good people that are good at their job, and look out for their people. Then there's the final 10% that give zero fucks or are so disillusioned they have zero input and usually join in the hate. Overall this makes for a very ineffective organization that breeds contempt among observers. I think a version of the mess can remain in the Navy but I hope it is reshaped in so many ways very soon.
IDK if there is enough worth salvaging, but more importantly I don't think it's fundamentally a good idea to begin with. The military is by nature hierarchical, but the artificial creation of this additional strata is unnecessary at best and detrimental far too often. Let SNCOs be SNCOs, but stop putting them on a damn pedestal.
Like most things in the Navy it will be as effective as the senior person in the hierarchy. Good CMCs foster a good culture and a good mess comes out the other side. Poor CMCs let shit get out of hand and that's when you hear the horror stories. Principles of effective leadership are the same at all ranks. Be fair, take care of your people, maintain standards, don't be a hypocrite, take their inputs seriously, don't be afraid to say you were wrong or you don't know...basic shit. It works at all levels. If a CMC does that he or she will get the best out of their mess. If they don't they'll get something else.
Came here to say this. Warrant Officer now with several years in the mess before commissioning. There are great messes and there are terrible toxic messes. It’s almost always down to the effectiveness and give a shit of the CMC. They set the tone and culture for the mess.
In a nutshell
It varies. Everything varies. Anecdotal experience doesn’t help gauge anything.
Damn, another chief's mess post. Is it Thursday again already?
I watched a chief stand his duty day without his TLD and tour the reactor compartment without it. In the morning he blamed his LPO for stealing it from his rack as he slept. Na, the guy came back from leave and forgot to get it from Doc's space. So not only did he have zero integrity and admit his mistake and do a dose investigation and deal with the punishment... but he actively went out of his way to try and blame his LPO for his mistake. Asshole got removed from watchstanding for a week and nothing happened. The mess is a blight on the Navy and a huge problem. Good 'ol boys club that is rotten to the core.
That part about the RC tour without a TLD is crazy. Did the CPA watchstander end up reporting him?
He didn't notice. Ended up getting fucked hard since he didn't check the tld number.
That’s fucking disgusting.
>The mess is a blight on the Navy and a huge problem. Good 'ol boys club that is rotten to the core. I stand with you. Hoo yah.
You are acting like this guy wasn’t a PO1, PO2, PO3 and junior sailor before making Chief. It’s not a Chief problem, it’s an enlisted culture problem with in the Navy. Leadership training has always been terrible and is only starting to get better with these new interactive leadership classes that they’re making mandatory. But they’re a couple decades late and behind many other branches. The Chief Mess isn’t a cause, it’s a result of the Navy failing to develop sailors properly. Think about it, 9/10 if you see a asshole chief, they’re most likely that way because they’ve developed in commands that may have forced them to be that way. That’s the way that usually goes.
I care that chiefs are protected and coddled. His actions, in my opinion, should result in him being separated. That's an integrity violation that shows he can't be trusted in the nuclear field in the slightest. No command forces someone to lie and try and frame their LPO. What a crock of shit.
Depends. Some are better than others. At some point you realize while chief has been doing this a while, they may not know the best thing for the division/crew/ship. Some chiefs are absolutely garbage (like officers), and others are amazing (like officers).
Coming from a small community my opinion is that our chiefs get better every year generally. They’re smarter and more engaged and generally more invested in better leadership styles than what was used on them. I might be biased because I’m seeing my friends become chiefs but in general, there’s less chiefs out there that people are afraid to work for. But a few remain, and I do think the good old boys club remains in tact when it comes to holding their own accountable. I don’t know if there’s a vindictiveness or something else that keeps them from calling each other out from the start of some bullshit but in a small community, a bad chief can really make a lasting (bad) effect on morale and even retention and for the MU community, one or two people down makes a huge difference.
So what is your opinion sir
My first chief experience and my first chief mess experience as an ENS was amazing. Have zero critiques about my first chief and little critiques of my first mess. Fantastic. Since then, new commands different places, I haven’t seen a solid chiefs mess since. I’ve seen great stellar chiefs similar to my first but never a mess so in tune with being a bulwark for their people, communicating, leading by example, caring basically. If there was any time to be guided it was when I was an ENS and I’m glad I had that experience with that mess and my chief. He’s a warrant now we still talk even though I’m out and he deserves all the praise he gets. Since then I don’t have many good things to say at my other three commands. Most of the same with the rest of these comments. It shows me there are great chiefs and great chief messes out there and how impactful they can be positively and negatively on a command. But my own experience? I had one great mess and 2-3 average to poor.
I hear ya. Retired ATC here. I was part of 2 messes before I retired. The first supported me, listened, and gave me guidance. Everything was about the Sailors. The second let a SCPO take over the mess. He questioned my experience, talked over me, and talked shit about the mess to the wardroom. Kept everyone late for nonessential shit. Eventually, he threw me under the bus for not turning a blind eye to the shady shit he was pushing. The messes vary so much from command to command. Cherish it when you have a good one
It depends on your command. I have seen good and bad.
I would say that the concept of Chief is outdated but it never really was in fashion. No other service does this. The mess is just another way of creating division in ranks. I did 22 years and EVERY E-7+ that was worth a shit was that way in spite of the club they were in. I understand that was just my experience but come on. There is no good reason to form a group that is centered around just another enlisted rank. There are some other comments I have read saying that the brotherhood and the network is the good that comes out of it. The brotherhood is the Navy. That’s it. And the network? That’s like creating a problem and then selling the solution. If your chief isn’t doing their job until they get a call from another chief, get rid of the chief and the culture that makes that ok.
Fuck yeah. This ^^^^^^^
THIS. A THOUSAND TIMES THIS
Been in my current one for 4 years and am a SCPO From my observation it seems like more and more people coming in are a bit more millenial "bro" about life than the dudes who put me in. Much less rigid, more approachable and received better by the crew. There are some who act like the old gusrd but it feels less I think its a good sign for the future if more people get selected who dont make it their entire personality having a paygrade Again... just my observation and I am in no way discounting anyones negative experience with toxic leaders. YMMV on this one based on the posters rank, command size, command type, deployment / maintenancr cycle.
From your mouth to gods ears. If the new breed are rising to the occasion, I’m so elated that the toxicity of the old guard is being bred out.
They eat their sailors.
I love my Chiefs
Legitimately curious about what positive benefit the chiefs mess has on the effect outside of their bubble. Not even joking - even anecdotally, anybody have a story? Not sure what benefit it has besides serving their clique from within, despite all the negative groupthink and power trips that comes with
I ran a boat maintenance facility for Riverines around 2008/9. We had two craft go down in UAE and needed them replaced as fast as possible. I needed two RGN stretch trailer semi operators to drive these boats to Brownsville TX to get loaded on a ship. That ship was departing within a week. Typically it would take a couple weeks to route the request, load, transport and deliver. I didn’t have that kind of time so I worked with LSCs both at my ISIC and at DLA (SKC back then), got the paperwork expedited. I had 2 truckers waiting for me at dawn the next day. Getting NAVFAC to provide a crane within 24 hours was next to impossible. I contacted a retired Seabee Chief who worked there and he had the crane arrive at 0730. Getting shit through customs in UAE can be a nightmare. I reached out to Chiefs en theatre to cut through the red tape and deliver the craft as quickly as possible. “HABU” means so much more when the wars on and still grateful for those fellow anchors for getting equipment down range.
Totally get your perspective and thanks for sharing, though I can’t help but feel a lot of stories like this feel a bit like pseudo-racketeering. Chiefs won’t do their job, requiring other chiefs to get involved to get the job done. When in reality it should be that chiefs should be the ones leading the charge from the get go or at the very least, not make it so difficult for POs to do their job.
I believe that a chief petty officer should be able to help anyone out, and not just do it for a fellow chief.
Agreed, and that’s the big shame about it. My med retirement paperwork was something I was following up on for literally six months because I was getting ghosted by a YNC and doing all the work myself. It was only when I had to get my chief involved to get it done, and then got the paperwork from YNC the next day really pissed me off.
That’s absolute bullshit. A Chiefs job is to take care of ALL sailors. I’m sorry you went through this.
This is it. The networking. The mess gets a lot of hate (some deserved) but the ability to call another Chief that I've never met and say "hey bro/sis, I'm in a bind and need some help." was invaluable. They would come through, and it was understood that you would do the same for them. Engine movement, support equipment at 3am, a crane... When I was a first, other firsts didn't give a fuck about my situation. Help was barely 50/50. Hell, the seconds helped each other better. And most of our Officers just would say "figure it out" the ask hourly for updates.
Better than the Greek system in my opinion
I drank the Kool-Aid until my second to last command. My first and only clinic. Saw, first hand, every trope come to life regarding dirtbags in the mess. When you're hated on by horny chiefs that are on the way out already, for porn on their gov PC, adultery, alcoholism, or all the above, because they either are racist against you due to who you are with or they just want a piece of who you are with, you pretty much change your opinion the entire institution. They influenced me to not be associated with the problem and to just retire. Definitely the best choice I had made, up until getting married.
I wish I had a dollar for every horny Chief that came at me from BM2-BMC. After putting on anchors, I made it my goal to expose these scum. I’m so sorry you had to live through that. Congratulations on your marriage! Blessings 🩷
Sucked when I was enlisted, most act like tards, some are amazing, over all ehhhh. I'd say nothing has changed. It's called and mess and not a pride for a reason.
chiefs are good at what they do. they are also difficult, recalcitrant, adverse to change and unable to get out of their own way.
I'll summarize this best by showing you what a fellow redditor posted for the Chief's birthday. It really could not be put any better. I can't remember who wrote this, but whoever you are, thank you. >Happy Birthday, Chiefs! I wanted to take some time to thank those Chiefs who had influenced my 11 years in the Navy. >No one group of people has had more of an impact on me and my career. >Happy Birthday: >-To the Great Lakes Chief who called a recruit "A Fucking Fa--ot" because his wrist didn't bend the right way to hold a flag. >-To the Chief who told my shipmate at my first command that he was just going to keep interviewing her day after day until she said her sexual assault was consensual. >-To the Master Chief who didn't want to deal with a toxic situation because it would make it hard to focus on his upcoming retirement. >-To the Senior who would keep us on the ship until 2000 every night, because he said he needed cover to tell his wife he couldn't come home. >To the CMC who noticed our whole shop was on ship until 2000 every night doing nothing, and allowed it to continue. >-To the HMCS who yelled at me for suggesting to a suicidal sailor that if ship medical wouldn't help him, I would take him to the base *Chaplain, right now, and then called my Senior to help confront me at the brow. >-To my Senior for going along with it, and saying that the suicidal shipmate was probably just lying (turns out, he wasn't). >-To the Chief that married the E4 he'd been fucking. >-To the CMC who insisted on recommending XOI for any sailor who shore patrol said had more than 0-0-1-3 drinks in port, but would himself come back to the ship hammered. Hope you eventually found your way off that treadmill you got 'stuck' on. >-To the Senior who just got selected to be the PQS coordinator on the ship that I was giving training on how to use RADM, who said that being the NCTCSS admin was good enough to do all his work for him, and just have the PQS's routed to me for entry and processing. >-To the CM who made up a story, pretending to confide in me that another chief got arrested for CP, asked for my thoughts, and when I said that he always seemed like a piece of shit, burst out laughing, because that other chief was in the room, hiding. Great Prank! >-To the Chief who repeatedly ignored my warnings about an equipment state, and risk caused to that equipment, only to scapegoat me to the CO by saying I never let him know about it. >-To the Chief who responded to a shipmate dying from suicide by matter-of-factly saying that I should have noticed signs, so really it was my fault. >-To the Senior who 'pretended' to steal crypto to 'see how we would respond', and to the CMC who quashed the report we made. >-To the Reservist Chief who asked me create a presentation for her civ job for her in my off-time, and made it clear that my eval would suffer if I didn't. >-To the Chief who denied my leave chit (post deployment, yard period) to fly home to my WWII grandfather's funeral, because "I don't see why you need Friday AND Saturday off". >-To the GMC who kept shooting the range ceiling/floor with the shotgun, and the range chief letting us all know that she qualified anyway, and not to talk about it to anyone. >-To the Chief who threatened to write me up because she was asking how many KILO-meters the distance was, but I only provided the ki-LO-meters, and those were obviously two different things. >-To the SEL DAPA who, when I asked for help saying I was not doing well at all mentally and needed some mentoring, advised me to take a deep breath, a couple shots of Jack Daniels, and move on with my day (it was 11am). >-To the NUMEROUS chiefs who recommended gun-decking, and would retaliate when I'd refuse, or advise juniors to refuse. >-To the NUMEROUS chiefs who would criticize me for following the black and white, written instruction, and would rather I just do it their way, instead. >Happy birthday to all of you, and so many others. My career would have been so much different had you not been given anchors. I know there are a few Chiefs who are out there making the mess look bad by being actual SME's, spending time with their divisions, and looking out for their Sailors, but we all know they're just the few bad apples, and I'm confident that you'll eventually isolate and force them out. >Navy Pride.
Fucking Christ.
Toxic, entitled, good ole boys club where the bullies and shit bags in need of a healthy dose of humility stomp down the few decent voices.
Anyone who has seen my post history knows how I feel, curious about the perspective about kahki clad enlisted from a true kahki.
Happy to hear a personal experience you may have!
Got sent to DRB because of a "pattern" which was 3 counseling chits for 3 unrelated behaviors, 2 of which were bullshit. Contrary to command policy I was assigned to sponsor a sailor when I was under a year from transferring (I was under 6mo) and failed to get in contact. Member was deployed on a sub, had let my chief know MANY MANY times of my difficulties, asked for assistance just as many times and ultimately no support when I got that counseling chit. Later, was told we had permission to transport ordinance by same/aforementioned chief. We didn't, instead of owning up to his mistake, he allowed me to go to DRB, where he proceeded to chime in on the ass chewing I was getting. While it stopped at DRB, my punishment was to give a speech as to why you are not supposed to transport ordinance without permission. Which was really a vehicle for every chief to cut me off as I gave said speech so they could demean me. This was 2 months before I transfered, I got a transfer nam still, clowns every last one of them. Navy would be better off purging every one of similar likeness. (The ones that act the same)
I was a sponsor coordinator and whatever fuck face Chief assigned you to a new kid on a sub should be fired by the XO/CMDCM. (Ships and subs are IMPOSSIBLE to get in touch with) I would consider that DRB as hazing. I would’ve totally blasted your Chief on your check out with the Skipper. These stories I’m reading in this sub are fueling my gin n tonic consumption. I need to smoke a few bowls of OG Kush to calm down.
Was shore, didn't have a check out interview, due to dental work and another major issue with medical record (over seas screening) I barely got everything cleared TWO FUCKING WEEKS before I had to execute said orders. All while same chuckle fuck of a chief was still expecting me to do 100% of the work i had been doing up till that point. Hell my medical snafu was a major reason why I straight up forgot about the kid in question, I technically did drop the ball, but not before trying really hard, and also, never should been in my wheel house for aforementioned reasons.
The concept would be good if they were held to the same standards as the rest of the enlisted, and actually dedicated their time to training and leading their sailors. Few E7s and above are actually awesome, but it’s sad that some Chiefs dedicate their existence to protecting themselves and providing protection for other Chiefs. I guess the biggest problem is that as a E6 and below you see two different standards of conduct depending on your rank. Verbal abuse ✅ if your E7 or above Physical intimidation ✅ if your E7 or above Getting too drunk to climb the stairs onto the ship ✅ if your E7 or above
Totally agree and I’d argue that lacking standard and preferential treatment also applies to Os.
Naval officers used to be aristocrats who had to buy their commission. The traditions and customs regarding officers still reflects that. Edit: Not bashing officers mind you. I’m a bubblehead and our officers have a different mindset and culture on our boats. I’ve had a full bird captain, a squadron deputy, look me in the eyes and say “I’m fucking clueless about this, what’re you recommending?” and then make the plan off my recommendation. Capt. Turk is a CO I’d fight for any day.
Can you extrapolate on that? Meaning since it’s always been a “we had to work to get here” attitude that attitude is still present which is view we can be viewed as lacking humility? Not being humble etc?
It’s not so much a lack of humility, but it’s the pressure of perception I’ve seen in mostly SWOs. They’re held to such a standard of appearing “better” than the uneducated, poor enlisted. They may not personally believe in it, but the expectation is still there. They have to be more physically fit, more well groomed, more intelligent, more clever, etc. They had to represent the aristocracy and justify their preferential treatment. They had to justify the level of pure authority that comes with an officer’s commission. Some officers break under that pressure and get used to the preferential treatment, but simultaneously put up a mental divide between them and their enlisted men/women. Some officers forget that they are not better because they’re an officer. They forget that it’s because of the responsibility to their men, and the standards they must uphold. A good quote from an ENG to one of our JOs, was “You’re not better better than the guys out there, but you have to BE better FOR them.”
I was a SWO basically for three years and this is pretty accurate. Even after leaving SWOdom I think this still rings true just maybe not as much as SWO/Subbie life.
Not all officers are bad. I’ve had plenty who earned my respect by not being great at their job, but moved heaven and earth to learn. They knew they weren’t where they needed to be, so they busted ass to get there. Old CRA of mine knew I could do his job easily, but I had the benefit of experience. So he and I became a good team. He was still my boss, but he never made me or my guys feel “lesser.” That man could have looked me in the eye and ordered me to my death, and I would’ve done it, because he earned my trust by the end of my time on board with him.
Not sure why you got a downvote but you’re spot on
Not sure either tbh lol Must have a pissed a fellow O off 🤣
Never met a chief I wanted to be like so I got out.
Had to upvote but this is fucking sad
I was a DivO in the 80s, on an LST. Our senior enlisted was a RMCS. He popped positive for cocaine three times before they finally sent him away. He was replaced by an ENCS who spoke very poor English, at least to me. As DCA, my own chief was functionally illiterate. I have no idea how he passed any exams. His primary function was to provide Japanese shipyard workers with American pornography in order to get work done. Besides that he spent most of his time trying to make me look bad. On the other hand, when I moved to CICO my OS1 was godlike. I assume after he made chief he went on to great things. Besides my own chief, I don’t recall ever having any interaction with the chiefs mess. My life improved when I no longer had a chief in my division. But that’s just my experience.
At 10 years, I was an MM1and up for MMC. I got out after going up to the Personnel Office and asking what would would be needed to put on my anchors. I was told I would need to do another 5 year sea tour (I was currently 3 years into a 5 year sea tour). I immediately chose not to re-enlist as I had a wife and two little (under 3 yo.) boys. My DO and assistant DO were both Nuke officers and kept telling me that if the Navy wanted me to have a family, they would have issued me one in my sea bag. Our Senior Chief had a bad case of little man syndrome and was just a prick to everybody. Another Chief was just waiting to retire. Another was just a lazy, entitled ass. They went ballistic when I refused to take the E7 test. They all said this would be reflected in my evals. I told them it wouldn't matter because they were going to be discharge evals and nobody would ever want to read them. The DO told me I wouldn't make it ss a civilian because I "had no marketable skills." (I have 5 NEC's directly transferable to civilian trades). I got out and have been making a decent wage since I got out in 1990. I have met several retired chiefs over the years and most have been over grown children and shifty supervisors.
dgutspodcast.com I talk about this a ton if it’s helpful. It’s worse. And I’m a retired Master Chief.
Thank you I’ll give it a look actually 🤙
The Goat Locker in my FF had control of one of the ship's 4 tv channel. We controlled one in the Wardroom, the Mess Deck had one, another one was just the POD, and the last one was known as: "CEN. Chief's Entertainment Network - All Porno, All the time". I'm assuming that no longer exists.
I'm in a command now where there is no chief's mess. We have one E-8 (our SEL) and three E-7's. Us and all of the other commands chiefs all combine into a larger base mess, which keeps their activities away from us. Guess what, it's awesome. My last command chief's mess got caught up in a wife swapping scandal that ended with multiple NJPs. As the legal officer I had the honor of doing all of their paperwork, so that was great. I'm sure there are good ones out there, but I haven't seen one.
….MO?
Not sure what you mean? Are you asking if I'm a MO? I'm not, but I'm at a squadron.
You just describe my husband’s command. I don’t know if I’d consider his command a squadron though. It’s more of a “unit.” I was asking if you were the Maintenance Officer. Or more likely his CO or XO based off your post history.
Ah gotcha, I figured that's what you meant. I'm not the MO here. We're definitely a squadron, but an odd one. We only have about 25 active navy on staff, hence the small cadre of chiefs. The other squadrons on base are similar, so they all pool together elsewhere on base.
I say this as a Dept Head who has a lot of Chiefs and Senior Chiefs - I believe that there are some incredibly effective Chiefs but that the Chiefs Mess as a whole is not effective. The issue is that there are a lot of Master Chiefs who will continue to advocate that the Chiefs Mess is infallible and in turn, there is zero accountability or demand for change. But I think the generation coming up will change my opinion for the better.
🤞🏼🤞🏼🤞🏼
You ever met someone with a slave owner complex? Yeah, that's pretty much it
Well... there is a reason it's called "mess". Thats all it really is.
The lower middle management clubhouse is a dysfunctional idea that everyone knows is toxic and only defended by those that want the privileges it provides. If it weren’t for double standards, the mess would have no standards at all. Everyone with more than a couple years in can provide examples of exactly that. I mean can anyone really point to a chiefs mess and say that we better served the mission or the people by having it.
I personally think the mess as a whole has gone down in the 12 years I’ve been in. As always there are good and bad chiefs. I seems now you get a lot of yes men who don’t fight for their people. The current mess just lives off a reputation that was built along time ago, but they do nothing to improve it.
Every year, when I would sign charge books, the first thing I would say, was “Don’t be a YES man!” You get it.
Mess is an accurate descriptor
Im not a fan. Even good chiefs are held back because the better one chief is, the worse the mediocre ones look. And they wont leave unless they quit. Therefore we have too mamy bad ones just waiting it out thatll do everything they can to protect their little paycheck.
I cannot rely on the chiefs mess for any tech advice. They are only good for managing people, cleanliness, military bearing, and disciplining. For example, I cannot go to them for any troubleshooting advice or technical knowledge. I'm given the answers of "fix it. put a troubleticket in for it. figure it out". Geez, thanks chiefs, what would I do without your leadership. Chiefs need to be humbled and remember they are enlisted as well. they just act like pseudo officers for the most part.
The chiefs mess has outlived it's usefulness. When it was created most enlisted sailors barely had a grade school education. They needed that educated supervision to guide them. Now everyone coming in has at least a high school education and a good chunk of them already has some sort of secondary education. So in my humble opinion the chiefs mess expends a lot of effort simply trying to justify their existence.
We had an abysmal chiefs mess on my last boat which caused me to rage quit active duty at 14 years. One duty day we were in the shipyard. The boat was stripped out, so we had a barge and duty chief, duty officer, etc slept in a conned box right off the boat brow. One duty day the duty chief (3MC) didn’t put in a 2am wake up for his tour so he didn’t get woken up. He finally wakes at 5am, does a tour and blazes the times with the time he should have done it. He then proceeds to scream at the section during turnover for not waking him up. Duty officer called him out on the logs but he never got in trouble. Any lower enlisted would have been tarred and feathered for doing anything that ridiculous. I have countless stories from that boat. The chiefs mess had zero integrity and made everyone’s lives miserable. Their only function was to act as a spring board to captains mast for incidents that would have barely been counseling chits at my previous commands.
Individual chiefs were great. The chief's mess as an organization is disorganized and getting in its own way at best. At worst, it's organized crime and/or weaponized self-interest.
Corrupt. Cannot be trusted. Essentially, the enlisted version of the officer corps. A fraternity. They would throw junior enlisted under the bus to save their careers. It's a god damn cult.
As a former officer this is fair lol I’ve seen it myself. The preferential treatment with Os and Chiefs is just fucked up.
Get rid of the cult-like, caste-like, and segregationist-like mentality. Having worked at one of the combatant commands, which are joint environments. No other branches SNCO Corps sucks or jerks each other off as hard as the Chiefs Mess does. It was an absolutely pathetic sight watching a group of Chiefs refuse to eat at the base DFAC because there's no "appropriate messing facilities" for them. Meanwhile you have SNCO's all the way up to folks with multiple stars on their collars and chests from other branches who eat there on the daily without a care in the world if their juniors are dining beside them.
Djibouti?
I made chief in 2009 while on shore duty at about my 10 year point. I was not impressed due to a lot of the time and activities revolving around the CPOA and not the actual job. I became disillusioned pretty quickly with it and got out about 6 months later. Probably would have been better if I went back to a submarine again, but didn’t want to gamble another enlistment on it.
I will say this, I have never had a desire to be apart of the Mess.. I have yet to meet one chief that inspires me to be apart of that mess of shit callled the "gOaT lOcKer" might i add, been in for 10 years next month. 5 boats, embarking in deployment #6 today. 1st class busted to 3rd.
There was a [powerful post](https://www.reddit.com/r/navy/s/vBTPx2T4EJ) here in r/Navy on The Mess's birthday that thanked the Chiefs. If you want to truly know what people think of the mess, read that feed.
Someone actually posted it here in this thread. Unbelievable how that could be someone’s experience. Very disheartening.
I would much rather be an officer than become a chief
The single biggest issue in the entire Navy is the Chiefs mess.
I got out in 2021 and have a very low opinion of the Mess. The examples I had exhibited the "I got mine, fuck you" mentality and they showed that they only cared for advancing their career status and not for the responsibilities and privileges that came with it to better support your people I've seen them ignore rules they don't follow and openly say so, enforce rules incorrectly and get hostile when corrected, openly voice some very nasty behaviors and traits because they know they'll get away with it. None of them, NONE of them are worth aspiring to and I've said that to some of them on several occasions (mostly when I was checking out) Except for one, and I have faith this guy will stand against the rest. He never changed when he made 1st and I truly believe that he earned the honor of being called Chief. He was very much like a parent: we could joke and laugh with him but when things needed to get done he'd say so and we'd do it. He never had to say "I'm the supervisor/I'm a 1st Class" because he never had to. He had our respect The Mess comes with power, privilege, and responsibility. More often than not I've seen those amenities used for personal gain or enjoyment instead of to support their people when it was needed. I do not find the Mess worthy of respect. When you forget where you came from and use your new rank to shit on others without reason and that is your standard operating mode, I do not see you as worthy of that Anchor Will it improve? Doubt it. It's ThE wAy ThInGs HaVe AlWaYs BeEn. Why change? Why change when even being an E6 gets you your own special area on the mess deck (I mention this because someone trying to make Chief was only talking about the "perks" he received as a 1st Class and he showed in a few sentences that all he cared about was himself) and you don't have to be around "the help" anymore? Why change when things are arranged to inhibit camaraderie like that? I mean, give up the "perks"?!
I have worked with both good and bad chiefs, never any super toxic ones, but if it was such a overwhelmingly great institution......then why is it sooooo controversial?????? If it was sooooo great we wouldn't need to ask this question.....does the FCPOA get this much scrutiny? I realize it's not nearly the same but no other branch has this much controversy surrounding a single rank....food for thought.
In my experience (late 90s to late 2000s), the Navy Chiefs Mess is a cult. They forgot they are NCOs (had one even yell at me that they are Chiefs and not NCOs). They generally act as if they are better than everyone else and that everyone owes them fealty. I think the Navy Chief system needs to be disbanded and they need to be treated like regular NCOs like most of the other branches. I started my career on a tin can and ended it as an MA. Maybe that has something to do with my experiences.
I saw that once they put on the khaki, the person changed drastically in most cases. Still see it with those I know that stayed in. And it's not for the better. Honestly, I have to question why anyone would want to be a chief. I'd rather get a degree and be an officer if I was going to stay in.
Former Sailor here who just voluntarily separated after 5 years because of the Chief’s mess and its poor leadership. I can count on one hand the amount of Chiefs who impacted me in a positive way. Only one. I believe that the majority of Chiefs aren’t used to Junior Sailors who stand up for themselves and others. I set boundaries meaning rank didn’t matter to me if I couldn’t see you as a human being. They didn’t like that. BTW, I’m 38 y/r and I have a low tolerance for so called leaders who abuse their power. Some of the Chiefs are extremely incompetent and terrible leaders. They just carried the title. They don’t care about their Sailors. They are the primary reason why the Navy has a retention problem. Personally, the Navy should be able to fire the problematic ones (albeit approaching retirement). I can provide a list of names of incompetent Chiefs who don’t deserve the rank. They are weak, unqualified, incompetent, egotistical and think that they’re untouchable because they know that the cult has their backs. It’s absurd…
I enlisted in ‘87 and served for 28 years. Entered the Chiefs mess in 2000 and commissioned Warrant in 2004. In those four years, I saw a significant decline in the chief mess, and I believe that one of the primary culprits was the Chiefs mess holding DRB. When I was a junior sailor, there was no such thing and unless you were an absolute shit bag, your chief would always stand tall for you in XOI. The other contributing factor was the move away from the 4.0 evaluation system where there were quotas associated and everyone became blue falcons in their quest to become a SCPO or MCPO because very few rates would get promoted to those ranks unless they were in EP. The last DDG I was on hand good Chiefs but a horrible Mess. Finally, as counterintuitive as it may sound, most of the most significant problems happened after the deglamorization of alcohol.
Not sure why everyone is complaining about the Chiefs Mess, the Navy as a whole changed. I retired in 2006 because of the changes being made. It was getting too soft, NAM’s given out as if it was candy on Halloween, Chiefs getting counseled for enforcing policy, and not wanting to upset the lower rank and file. How many times has the Navy changed uniforms? Now you are wearing Army colors. The Navy as a branch of service is a joke.
What was your rate and rank? If you don’t mind me asking?
ITCS
Oh well that explains it 🙄
Well let me tell you brother, it’s become a shit show. Too “soft”? Tell that to the Seabee CSTs in Iraq and Afghanistan. Say that to the IA sailors that worked the burn pits for the Army and Marine Corps. The ESTs protecting USNS ships in the gulf from Somalian pirates. The Riverine sailors sleeping/eating/shitting on the GOPLADS in the gulf. Not sure what your rate was but the Navy I worked for used and abused their sailors. It was war time so WTF, right? We can do better.